As we wait for 3:00 PM EDT to roll around and begin the Friday afternoon news breakening, we could use a new thread. And since commenter Lizzie’s question deserves some broader exposure than the few folks who’ve seen it buried in the comments to the previous thread, here it is:
Since it’s an open thread….sorry in advance for the long post, especially by a lurker who rarely posts! But there are a lot of knowledgeable animal lovers here and I’d love some advice about whether to pursue adopting two dogs.
The dogs are 6 and 8, a lab/shepherd mix and an Australian shepherd mix, described as well-trained, well-loved, sweet family dogs. The family has a 2-year-old facing a serious illness and unfortunately they can’t care for the dogs anymore. They would really appreciate if the dogs could be kept together. So far as I know, the dogs have never lived with cats.
My family (me, hubby, one kid in high school, one in college), has two cats, 7 and 11. We have never had a dog and I’m very much a cat person by nature. But we also love dogs and for several years now I’ve been considering whether to adopt an older dog. I keep holding back because I’m not sure how the cats would do.
The younger cat is very sociable and outgoing, playful, and curious, which I assume would all help him adjust to dogs. The older cat is loving to us, but can be grumpy sometimes and gets annoyed and territorial when we have too many people over/there’s too much going on. He doesn’t hide, he just sits in the middle of everything like a grumpy old man grousing about the kids on his lawn. He is also just getting to the stage where he’s starting to feel older to me, it’s hard to describe but he’s just starting to feel slightly fragile when I pick him up.
When we took care of a friend’s puppy for a weekend a few months ago, the cats were extremely stressed about it (although the younger one was braver and more curious); but because it was such a short time I didn’t do anything to try to help them get along, we just figured the cats would mostly hide (which they did); maybe that was a mistake.
Is this a recipe for disaster, or possibly the beginning of a beautiful relationship?
Obligatory!
Stay! Good stay!
Open thread.
Frank Wilhoit
No basis to predict. Animals are every bit as much individuals as we are. Gradual introductions are an obvious tactic, but even that is not a universal.
kindness
I have 2 dogs and 2 cats. For the most part they ignore each other although one of my cats is a punk and likes to surprise attack the others. None of the pets seem to like her.
Your cats will hide at first. You will really have to spend more time with the dogs making sure they know you are boss and the cats are family too, not play toys for the pups. Once everyone understands the ground rules it is no problem.
Victor Matheson
Yup, impossible to predict with certainty. That being said, we introduced a cat to our middle-aged black lab a year ago. Previously the dog had never had a cat in the house and was extremely aggressive whenever she saw stray cats out in her yard.
However, she adjusted immediately to the new cat inside the house. We just made sure the cat had a separate space she could go to away from the dog, and we didn’t leave them alone together for the first couple of weeks.
Now the cat loves to tease the dog and is completely fearless. The dog is extremely jealous when the cat gets attention, but that is charming. And I haven’t heard a hiss or bark between them after the first week or so (with the generally occasional exception when the cat attacks the dog’s wagging tail like it is a feather toy.)
Sis
When I’ve done this successfully in the past, I’ve kept the new animal in a bedroom for nearly a week, so that the other animals could get used to the new kid’s smell, sound, etc. And then, an initial meeting was short and very controlled. And I gradually increased the amount of time they were all together until everybody was accustomed to everybody else. It wasn’t always smooth sailing, but this way of introducing them has worked for me more often than not. Good luck!
debit
Reposting my comment from downstairs:
When I introduce new dogs to my cats, I always, always, always, do it slowly. Dogs in one room, cats in another, for at least a day. The dogs figure out that the cats belong, the cats get used to the idea that a new and smelly critter has entered the house. Before I open the door and let the cats peek in to assess the situation, I tether the dog to me. (Actually, I tether anyway until I know how they are with house training). I’ve been lucky and never had a dog lunge at a cat. They seem to know the cat was here first and has already established its ownership of territory.
The cats may growl and hiss, they may run up and slap the dog. As long as there’s no blood drawn, I don’t make a big deal of it. The growling and hissing may last for a few days. For my poor little dog Chloe, it lasted a bit longer. One of my cats outweighed her by about 5 pounds and would run up, tackle her, then slap her face and run off again. After a week of this, the cat abruptly decided she was okay and started insisting on sharing Chloe’s dog bed with her.
Of course every dog, cat and home are different, but I don’t think it’s hard to integrate new animals, as long as no one feels so threatened that they feel forced to react with violence.
I’m going to add that my dog Kelpie was a full time outside dog, had maybe been around barn cats, has a strong squirrel! drive. But if you look at my flickr, you’ll see that she’s the one all the cats snug up to cuddle with.
Ohio Mom
I have no experience with this sort of thing, just want to say, Good for you Lizzie for considering this good deed. A family with a seriously ill toddler is going to need a lot of support.
Also, to you and all the other lurkers who surfaced yesterday: It’s nice to hear from you, please keep joining in.
And since this is an open thread, John and Lily, wherever you are, holding you in the light.
singing truth to power
Lizzie, I had two Border terriers – they are not large, but think they are, and are born to kill prey of all kinds. When the male Border died, my female Lucy was adrift – of course, I thought she was lonely, so arranged to adopt a 6 year old Burmese cat, Silka. When I brought Lucy home from her one-night stay at the kennel, she seemed to believe that this was her new chew (and worse!) toy. I did not leave her alone with Silka for a second for the first two weeks. When they were both in the house and on the loose, Lucy was tethered to my waist with very little slack. After two weeks, she seemed to accept that Silka was not hers. Within a few weeks, they started curling up together to sleep. I’m not sure how you would handle the tethering with two dogs – perhaps alternate dogs and keep one in a closed room? It is possible for them to learn to be family, but I wouldn’t trust them for a fair number of weeks. If your dogs don’t have a strong prey drive, it will be easier. Lucy and her brother caught and killed squirrels, birds, possums in my back yard, but she did learn that Silka was family.
JPL
Thanks Adam. It was an important comment and I’m pleased it will not get lost.
NorthLeft12
We have done it both ways; old cat introduced to a puppy, young dog introduced to a kitten, old dog introduced to a kitten, and a puppy introduced to two older cats. Its been a bit of a mixed bag. Both of our dogs have been Labs and they are incredibly friendly and sociable. When they were pups they chased and played with the cats, which the cats were not crazy about, but as they matured they calmed down and allowed the cats to snuggle up with them.
I think the key factor is the personality of the pets involved. Labs [in my experience] are pretty amazing with cats and treat them just like small dogs…for better or worse. Our first cat was miserable and did not like kids or even most adults. Our next two cats were much friendlier and more tolerant of the dogs and their antics. Our only remaining cat [a calico] is always snuggling up to and licking and cleaning our dog [Gus, a chocolate Lab].
Watch them closely at first, then give them time to establish a relationship.
Daffodil's Mom
We have always had multiple dogs and cats living together. But before adding anyone to a multi-pet household, you really do have to take into serious, serious account the personalities, and needs, of those who live there already. I.e., we have not added cats we *really* wanted to, bc one of the cats we now have just really couldn’t handle it. And she never will, we know that and accept that about her — she’s more than worth it in every other way, so we figure that’s just part of the package to which she’s entitled. Now this is just the way we’ve dealt with it; maybe other people will have other, better ideas — but if you do go ahead, fuss more over your old friends during the intro period, you can make it up to the newbies later. And also, the cats will need their own quarters for a while, but be sure to leave a sliver of door open (or use a baby gate) so everybody can smell each other and get acquainted that way. It really does help.
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: As I understand it, my brief here is classification issues, national security, recipes, and pets.
Washburn
Since open thread …
I think I am starting to see what the whole Jared trip to Saudi Arabia was about …
There’s the obvious reason that Jared was conveying Trumps acquiescence to the Saudi’s seizure of +/- 100 billion dollars from various Saudi Citizens in exchange for a billion or two of real estate “investment.” That’s a given, I think. But I think the bigger plan was to get the Saudi’s to agree to increase production or otherwise drive down oil prices through the mid-term and the the next Presidential election. Trump started making noise a couple of days ago about how gas prices were too high..
He will beat that drum for a few weeks and make a show of putting “pressure” on the Saudis and then oil then gas prices will take a dip for a few months while Trump crows about WINNING.
Trump’s base will eat that shit up.
Okay – let me go back to adjusting my tinfoil hat.
NorthLeft12
I just read the other comments before mine, and yeah I would strongly agree with supervising the dogs with the cats for the first few weeks until you are confident that the dog will not injure the cat…..or in some cases, vice versa.
Riley's Enabler
I have a medium (50 lb) rescue mutt (husky, retriever and parts unknown) and 4 rescue cats. The Doggo came first, and each cat came along one at a time as kittens. Doggo does fine – it’s the cats that hassle each other occasionally. SO – when a new animal comes in (I also foster medical needs cats for short periods until rehabbed/adopted) it goes into the spare room, which has towels that have been in the beds of the cats/dog. Sometimes this causes the visitor to mark, sometimes not. I keep them completely separated for a week (longer if an animal is ill) – they can hear and smell through the door but no contact. Then one by one introductions over the next week, done by carriers (cats) and on a harness/leash (dog). One intro per day – no more. Then gradually build up to two per day the following week. Once I know the visitor is disease free, I take the towels it has been sleeping on and put in public spaces so house animals can get the full sniff test. Anyway, this has proven mostly successful except the time I had 5 blind foster kittens that escaped out of the quarantine room and it was pandemonium. But even that ended up fine (the tiny blind girl ruled the house for a couple of weeks – bravest cat I’ve ever seen). Just take time, patience – give everyone extra skritches, snuggles and attention. And treats. It may take 5 – 6- 8 weeks and that’s ok. I’d be especially cautious as to NEVER leaving them alone for the first month or two – if you leave the home, put the doggos in crates/isolate them / whatever. Not knowing their particular prey drive, I’d be extra aware. It can be done – probably? But it will take time and patience.
HeleninEire
CONGRATULATIONS and welcome to the front page, Lizzie. I’ve been here 8 years and have never been front paged. Although Cole once copied one of my comments on his Twitter feed. So, YAY, me. And you too. Comment more, Lizzie.
Washburn
@debit:
This is good advice. If you can put a child gate up between rooms for a few days to separate them, that would be good.
Also think about introducing them to one another individually and not all 4 at once.
Finally, if your cats will allow it, consider sitting with one on your lap and gently petting it to introduce it to the dog. If the dog understands that this strange creature has your approval, s/he’s likely to be more accepting. Vice-versa, too. Let the cats see you interacting positively with the dogs.
Bill K
I’d say the biggest problem will be your older cat. What happened with the puppy is a good indicator. Your dogs are lab/shepherds entering a new environment so they will be flexible and look to the human for cues on how to treat the cats. The younger cat showed some curiosity with the puppy, so that would also apply with other dogs, and would eventually grow into acceptance. Your older cat will despise the dogs forever and will probably take it out on you. Older cats hate change. She will hide. She will sulk. She may quit using the litter box. She may use your bed as a litter box. Each cat has their own personality and their own way of showing when they are pissed. I speak as someone who has owned around 20 cats over my life. The older cat may eventually come around but it will take months at least and quite possibly will never be the same. One recommendation would be a calming collar from the vet.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
I can only give my experience: I have had cats as an adult until my daughter was 12(12 years ago) at the time we had one older cat and 4 year old cats. We adopted a mixed breed Jack Russel/Springer spaniel neuter male 1 year old dog. We made a decision to mostly keep the dog upstairs and the cats down stairs ( we live in a ranch with a finished and furnished basement)
We kept the dog from going downstairs and the cats were allowed up if they wanted to come upstairs. The dog made the mistake of following and cornering the old cat only once. She smacked him on the nose and he never chased her again. The younger cats mostly ignored and avoided him for a long time. They could be in the same room or on the same couch but deliberately avoid looking at each other. now I have only one cat left and the one dog and they will never be friends but they don’t fight either.
It partly depends on your dogs prey drive. Despite being a terrier mix my dog didn’t have a strong prey drive, before we adopted him the shelter staff walked him around the cat room and he mostly ignored them. Some dogs (mine included) will follow a cat if the cat runs but at least with my dog the minute the cat hissed the dog turned around around.
jeffreyw
It depends on the dogs and the cats, could be no problem! Not a promise!
TenguPhule
@Washburn:
Saudis are going to fuck him sideways and laugh.
They need higher oil prices more then they need his grift/laundering.
And also Russia needs higher oil prices too. So its all going to be big words, small hands.
Lottirose
Ditto Ohio Mom’s every wise and loving word particularly in reference to John and Lily. Prayers for her journey and John’s healing.They were both truly fortunate souls to have found one another.
SC54HI
Agree with others here that controlled, phased, and supervised introductions will work best.
If the dogs have had obedience training, you may be able to use that to forestall questionable behavior in mid-action. Probably the best and most surefire obedience command we used was “Off!” It worked every time, no matter whether it was a frozen chicken breast fallen to the kitchen floor or a live 4-inch centipede wriggling its way through the living room. “Off!” stopped Mr. Dog in his tracks.
HumboldtBlue
I can’t answer the cats and dogs question.
But damn, this fucking guy. Judge Spersky who sentenced Brock Turner to just six months after he was convicted of raping an unconscious woman, believes he’s the real victim in the ongoing recall effort against him.
Mary G
Please keep commenting, Lizzie. I was a lurker for years until I finally dipped a toe in and now they can’t shut me up! It’s fun.
I had someone come to stay who had a dog. I was worried about my cats and bought a baby gate, so they could have a room that was theirs alone. The cats, who could easily have jumped over/squeezed through the gate, were flummoxed and bitched about being shut in. The dog, who looked way too big to enter, turned out to have a body like a rat’s that he could fold in fourths, and let himself right in, so that didn’t work.
The cats were evil to him at first, partly because he wanted to play and bounced at them. After a short while, everyone accepted that the dog was the low man on the totem pole. The cats wanted to cuddle up to him, and would lie down next to him. He promptly moved away, because he thought they hated him. They did all love to zoom around the house together, which was hilarious.
bookdragon
I am allergic to cats so have never had to acclimate one to another wrt dogs and cats. But I have greyhounds and have worked with rescue for years, so to me the thing to be sure of is that the dogs are ‘cat-safe’. That is, not high prey-drive. It may not be a problem with these breeds. But whilen most greyhounds can live with cats, but about 30% have the sort of prey instinct where something small runs and their hindbrain says ‘Bunny!!’ before the frontal cortex can kick in and remember its the cat they snuggled with last night.
If there’s a greyhound rescue in your area, I’d suggest asking how they cat test the incoming hounds and if they could help you evaluate these dogs. Just to be safe.
AnnaN
As others say – controlled and phased introductions. Even after everyone is introduced always have a safe space for the cats to go – we have one bedroom where the food, litter, and cushions are kept with a hook that keeps the door ajar enough for the cats to slip in and out but the dogs can’t get in. Over 20 years of two cats and 2-3 dogs and never a problem.
Barbara
In my experience, your cats will adjust if their environment does not become too threatening. Which is to say, if the dogs are okay with the cats, don’t chase them or threaten them, the cats will, perhaps grudgingly, come to accept their presence. Creating separate spaces for the animals at first should help a lot, so the cats can retreat if that’s what they want to do.
b
I vote on depends. Some dogs will definitely attack and try to kill cats, no matter how slow you go in introductions.
I grew up with dogs and cats simultaneously and, as an adult, have pretty much always had both.
I’ve never had trouble getting puppies to play nicely with cats. But I know of dogs who do attack cats. My sister has 2 dogs (small terriers). One is ok with cats, the other cannot be trusted. I have had no luck getting the second dog to accept the cats, so I must keep them separated when I pet sit.
I suggest, as others have, that you try for an introduction to see how aggressive they are towards the cats. It isn’t necessarily bad if the dog wants to chase a cat, but it would be bad if the dog wants to chase and attack. For a dog you know, you can usually tell when the dog just wants to play with the cat rather than attack. For an unknown dog, that is going to be harder. My youngest golden play chases our cats all the time. Our old cat doesn’t like the play and removes himself to his safe spaces. The kitten likes to attack back.
No matter what, it will almost surely be stressful on the cats at first. They need to have a safe place accessible at all time to get away from the dogs. You would need to keep them separate for a decent period (3-4 weeks) with careful interactions before I would let them loose together without supervision. I took a month to gradually introduce my goldens to the new kitten in December. And they are used to cats.
Good luck.
JPL
@Adam L Silverman: Your Prime Rib recipe was well received by my crowd on X-mas eve.
TenguPhule
@HumboldtBlue:
Accountability is the real oppression! //
Wyatt Derp
Our dog and cat are best buds but they have been together almost their whole lives so I can’t predict what will happen with a new dog. One thing to consider, and it helps even with our pets (the dog can get a little too “playful”) is a cat door to the basement. I put in an outside cat door on the basement door so the cat can escape when he needs to and the dog can’t get in.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
And Revolutionary War Trolling.
Barbara
@HumboldtBlue: Ugh. I don’t understand why he had to go there. I actually do understand what his thinking was, why he thought the sentence was in conformance with the guidelines he was supposed to use and the charges that were brought, and I do have major problems with the entire category of blaming judges (it’s a two way street). But being held to account is not the same as being a victim.
TaMara (HFG)
My day took an interesting turn as I am now the proud babysitter of this little pup while I try to locate the owner. Expecting rain, sleet and snow, so glad I was able to scoop the pup up.
TenguPhule
T-ant-T: meet the exploding ants of Borneo
As always, life is stranger then fiction.
Jeffro
Hey check this out: Rudy 911 thinks the Mueller probe will wrap up in a few weeks.
Rudy, m’man, I wasn’t that delusional after my first keg stand:
yes…a “little push” from Giuliani and there you have it, we’re all done, folks. Sure thing, Rudy! Absolutely. Now…if we could just ask you a few more questions about how you knew the leaked emails were coming…
trollhattan
@NorthLeft12:
Awwww. Just wanted to say that.
sherparick
You might try the following sources.
http://www.reachoutrescue.org/info/display?PageID=10478
My sister and brother-in-law introduced a young puppy to her 3 cat home. She did create a safe space for the cats and place where the dog could not go for food and litter. The dog was also a puppy (Yellow Lab) when introduced and could not hurt the cats. Nevertheless, it was a rough year as the cats initially hated the dog and were very stressed when in the same room as the dog. They eventually did adapt, but I expect it will take a lot of patience and you will have to be present when the cats and dogs are together for some time.
singing truth to power
Regarding child/pet gates, I used one once very briefly. The cat went over it as if it weren’t even there. I thought of having a screen door put in, but that just seemed way too hard –
trollhattan
@Jeffro:
The Giuliani “a few weeks” is the new Friedman Unit.
Victor Matheson
@Wyatt Derp: We have exactly the same thing. Outside cat door cut into our door to the basement. The basement is 100% cat territory. The rest of the house is shared. Everyone is happy.
debit
@TaMara (HFG): What a cutie!!!!
ruemara
@HumboldtBlue: I interrupt this thread to say, FUCK HIM.
Also, you need to know the prey drives of your dogs, have a space you can declare the dogs’ space for the introductory time period (*no time limit on that), know that you have a strong leave it command with your dogs and you don’t do anything during times when they are together except watch them. It’s also good if the cats always have an escape route to get away from the dogs: tall enough climbing post, a route up to a fave perch or even a cat sized exit.
SiubhanDuinne
@Ohio Mom:
They have not been out of my thoughts, or my heart, all day. Light and love.
As for @Lizzie’s question, I can’t offer any advice, but what other commenters have recommended sounds sensible. Good for you to consider adopting these dogs, and best of luck.
Ocean dude
I had four cats. Brought in a puppy. All the cats stressed at first. They never scratched the puppy, and the reaction was sort of – wth is this shit. This is bs. They realized puppy maybe pain in the ass but no threat. That was 3 years ago. Now the dog and youngest cat are best buds. They sleep together. The dog behaves like a cat at times. She will bird watch with them, and attempt to sit on the back of the couch. One cat remains an A-hole, but shes an A-hole to everyone except my wife and I. We brought in a 18 mos old pit mix and there was mass chaos at first. New dog never raised around cats. He chased and barked at them as much as he could. He got smacked and scratched on the nose several times by the cats. Powerful 55 lb dog. He eventually got them to run, which led to chaos. Did the coins in a can trick, the dog hated that noise. That stopped behavior. However what worked well was giving the dog treats as he got near cats. He stopped the hunting mode behavior. The positive and negative rewards worked very well. Now he and youngest cat are buds. A-hole cat remains a cranky A-hole cat to everyone.
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
My understanding is that recipes and pets are allowable topics for any front pager and are common topics for most of them.
Litlebritdifrnt
Also, too, my dogs and cats always grew up together so they never had a problem, but God forbid a stranger cat crossed their yard, they would go nuts at the living room window and if they could have got out they would have done real damage. As it was when a cat came through the cat door all it took was a cursory sniff of the butt and they knew it was one of theirs. I would therefore heartily recommend a controlled environment where you stick said cats butt into the nose of the dogs so they know they are theirs, part of the family, and therefore untouchable.
trollhattan
Maybe as a first step, take the two doggies to a dog park and watch how they interact, especially with small dogs but also their general socialization skills. Plus, they’ll have a fun trip to the dog park (our current boy is the first we’ve had who actually loves other dogs).
jeer9
We introduced an abandoned stray kitten (from a feral mother) to our home with a 12-y-o beagle. The beagle was always an outside dog (garage when it got cold in CA) and was at first irritated by the cat’s special treatment. We would let him in occasionally so that they could acclimate to each other and soon the cat was going outside (to do his business and prowl) without any fear. They pretty much tolerated each other without becoming friends. Plus, the cat left lots of poopy treats for the beagle.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
Although not normally at the same time.
trollhattan
@Ocean dude:
This is the tao of cat.
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
I thought that was: “I exist, therefore feed me.”
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: Excellent.
I had a spare one, so happy to share.//
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: That goes without saying!
Adam L Silverman
@TaMara (HFG): Awww!
Ceci n est pas mon nym
There are probably a lot more success stories than failures. Our lab mostly ignored the cats, but would still occasionally dive at one. I think she just thought it was funny, about the way she acted with squirrels. The cats would try to ignore it as long as possible. Nobody ever raised a claw, the usual way that cats let a dog know to leave them alone. They would just get up and move to a higher place, acting (of course) as if that was always their intention.
More recently at Thanksgiving, my sister brought their new yearling puppy along. He was as rambunctious as a youngster pup ever is, but our elderly (16.5 then) cat completely ignored him. She used to hide when even strange people were in the house, but I think she finally reached her honey badger age. She wants to lie on the living room carpet, she’s going to lie on the damn living room carpet, and the hell with any kids, strange adults, or pups.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
Wasn’t there a commenter that posted cat recipes once?
? Martin
Mixing pets is always case-by-case, but we’ve had huge success with it. We’ve had a Corgi for 11 years. In that time we’ve added at one time or another a total of 5 bunnies, 6 hamsters, and a rat – mostly all rescues. The bunnies do not get along (very territorial) but they individually and the dog are cool. One of the bunnies and the Corgi would playfully chase each other around the yard. He’d help us find the bunnies when they were hiding in the bushes and it was time to go back inside. The other pets would always be nervous at first, but we wouldn’t slow-roll the introductions. Pets are pretty good at picking up cues. If you signal they shouldn’t be together, then they act that way. If you signal that it’s safe, then they adapt a bit faster. There are other things you can do to help – Corgis are extremely food motivated. When we’d give the bunnies a snack, he’d get one too. To him, having other pets meant he got more snacks – good deal. The pets always had their safe spaces though where the other pets weren’t allowed. If they seemed stressed, they’d go back there for a little bit. They are always fed in their safe space.
Dogs aren’t inherently territorial but they can easily be trained to be (deliberately or otherwise). I’d give it a go, but with a plan B in the event it doesn’t work out.
TaMara (HFG)
Here’s how it is in our crazy house. The cats are top of the pyramid (well, besides me LOL) and the dogs must obey that. I let the cats determine the relationship with the dogs. They are NEVER unsupervised until I know for sure the dogs get this. And the cats always have somewhere to go that the dogs cannot get to….a room of their own.
If one of the dogs chases, annoys or otherwise threatens a cat, they are in immediate time out (we use the laundry room with a baby gate – don’t laugh, it’s not even attached to anything, it just sits there).
Most dogs, if they haven’t had issues with cats before, get the whole pack thing pretty quickly. I think the human attitude is the important piece in this. Stay strong and don’t let the dogs slide on anything and they will follow your lead.
As for the cats – I’ve got one who adores Bixby, tolerates Scout. One who looks at Scout like she’s a great playmate and I have grumpy cat who does his own thing and pretty much hates the dogs (and the ducks for that matter) but gets plenty of scritches, so we’re good, he just stomps around the house with a don’t mess with me attitude.
Scout has been here since January – the cats are just starting to settle in with her. Bailey was here for almost a year and it took them a good 6 months to settle. So expect it to take time.
Percysowner
I will go with it depends. I had cats for years. Then my daughter, who was living with me while going for her Masters found a dog she loved. The dog was a barkey thing, but the cats ignored her and it worked well. When my daughter left, I realized I missed having a dog, so I went to a rescue. I got a dog that had been fostered with other cats and had shown no bad behavior. A month in she started getting aggressive. She was finally feeling more comfortable in my home and became territorial and she had a strong prey drive. I took her to obedience classes. I brought in a private trainer. I did all the things to help her learn to leave the cats alone. One day, about two months in, she just jumped on one of the cats, and it was obvious that she meant business, her prey drive had kicked in. Now she was all of 9lbs and my cat was 14lbs, so no one was hurt, but I had to return her to the rescue. Later I tried again with a different dog. I had zero problems with him and the cats. He just didn’t care. I got my second dog, a beagle, who did the beagle thing with the cats. She will decide to go Woo! Woo! I found it! and bark her head off. She will occasionally chase, but her beagle heritage of “must not harm the prey, must only find it” has stood in good stead. In winter I would end up with two cats and two dogs curled up in my lap or next to it if they couldn’t all fit. Last night my one cat and the beagle slept next to each other on the couch.
Basically, if you bring them in, supervise really well. Also, keep an eye out for a couple of months as dogs settle in, they may change their behavior. It can work to have both cats and dogs in the house if their personalities are suited and if they are introduced properly and monitored until you know how they will react.
Good luck. If this works out you will probably have a great house full of pets.
FlyingToaster
@TenguPhule: Speaking of the Revolutionary war, this twitter thread. American History the way it ought to be taught.
ruemara
Oh, since we’re talking about pets, here’s Air Odoriki. My boy is a basketball star! And smart. He knows a section of the living room is easier for him to get his balloon (lower roof) and he managed to let his balloon go up into the higher roofed area. So he puzzled it out, put in the extra high jump and caught his balloon again. Then took it back to where he managed to capture it easier. He’s fricking genius!
Leave me alone, I don’t have kids.
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: I hope they used free-range cats.
Ocean dude
Tao of cat. Very true. I think Terry Pratchet’s take works best- “In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this.”
Lee
Apparently Hannity’s word is coming apart. There is an article about him being a secret owner of a Financial Services group that he regularly touts.
Using that information some sleuths over at fark have dug up a bunch of low rent properties he has purchased that really seem to indicate he is laundering money for someone.
I’m so heart-broken over it, I’m going to get another beer and watch his world burn down in real time ;-)
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
Don’t all cats freely range?
Adam L Silverman
@FlyingToaster: I actually forwarded that to a friend at Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC) with a recommendation that all after action reviews (AARs) be formatted in this manner going forward.
Calouste
@TenguPhule: My grandfather kept rabbits that we thought were pets, and he knew were Christmas dinner.
Yutsano
@TaMara (HFG):
Uh-huh.
Suuuuuuure.
ruemara
@TenguPhule: Mine freely range in the areas provided for them. There is someone at the top. It is I. And all my cats understood that. Although it is funny to see a cat recognize his room limit privileges so they sit patiently outside the kitchen door, supervising the meal prep.
Planetpundit
All I thought of today was sweet Lily and John’s terrible day. So sad.
MoxieM
Posted on the wrong thread b/c I am just that clueless. More or less repeated, is my experience with this kind of matter:
The balance of animal relationships can change stuff. When I had 2 dogs (M/F) + 2 (M/M) cats there was relative harmony (well, the cats got into it from time to time). After divorce, and the death of one cat & male dog, the remaining bitch would harass the remaining cat. (Both dogs were Newfies, so, generally pretty chill and non-high prey drive dogs…except this girl). She would do asshole things like lie in front of his cat door to the cellar (hence, cat box). We split them up, so now I am a dogs-only household. The cat went to a cat whispering relative where he lived out a very happy life.
Capri
Sometimes cats show stress in peculiar ways. They may seem perfectly fine in the same room as the dog, but start other behaviors such as not using the litter box, throwing up a lot, or grooming themselves excessively until they have literally rubbed off big swaths of fur. Something to be aware of.
debit
@Planetpundit: I’ve been sad and apprehensive all day. I know how horrible this is for John. I still can’t talk about Walter without crying. I can’t imagine how devastated John must be.
Yutsano
@debit: I’m terrified this will happen at a time when I can’t look at BJ for awhile. Or John may not be up to posting about it. Either way, much love to our blog master.
mai naem mobile
We had two dogs and an anti social cat that we inherited from the neighbors leaving her behind. Anyhoo,I don’t have much advice. Our cat was not nice to the dogs and the dogs left her alone early on after she scratched one of them in the eye .
schrodingers_cat
I found another of A. R. Rahman’s Sufi masterpieces.
Al Madad Maula, from Mangal Pandey, The Rising.
* Literally, just God, help us.
Historical background:
Mangal Pandey was the first martyr of 1857’s First War of Independence, that ended the Company Raj and necessitated the takeover by the British Crown.
satby
Lizzy, use extreme caution as you introduce the dogs (one at a time) to the cats, and do a reintroduction with a helper with both dogs together, because the two together can decide the cats need to be eliminated when each alone might opt for co-existence. And some dogs are never safe around cats. I’ve had to go to pretty extreme measures to keep my cats away from my dog Hershey, who is a sweet, loving, safe dog to small dogs and children but a potential killer of cats. He injured two of mine (not seriously, but still) before I just gave up and have kept them apart. For 10 years.
zhena gogolia
@Planetpundit:
I was at lunch and I sighed and someone said, “What’s wrong?” I didn’t think I could explain it so that they could understand. But yeah, have been sad all day.
TaMara (HFG)
@debit: I’m pretty raw, too. So I’m with you there. I just keep sending John light and love. Otherwise, feeling pretty helpless.
Jeffro
@FlyingToaster: OMG that is awesome, thank you!
trollhattan
@zhena gogolia:
What isn’t totally understandable about “A dog I’ve never met owned by a guy I know on the internet is really sick, and all the jackals are sad”?
I don’t bring it up either and am having the same sketchy Friday. So glad to go home to my doggie in a few hours.
gvg
As far as you know no prior living with cats….I would try to ask them directly. They might have at an earlier time and been fine. they might have chased cats. A direct answer will help you make a choice. Of course, if they really have no background, see about some testing. Maybe even talk to people who foster. I think some of these animal placement agencies have test evaluations.
MoxieM
@Planetpundit: Yeah. Check/not checking. Knowing/not wanting to know. Feeling just awful about it since yesterday evening. It’s such a blow. My dearly departed Jack had a Dx of a fast moving bone cancer, but at least I had a couple days to bring him home and feed him steak and tuna. I just feel sad and bewildered for someone I’ve never met, but I know that dog-person bond of love so well.
Mike J
@Adam L Silverman:
(Emphasis added)
debit
@TaMara (HFG): Helpless is a good word.
Planetpundit
@debit: Yes I know; I had a 21 year old cat named Tiger; my best friend ever. When he passed I had to go back to work just walking around feeling empty and numb. We’ve been all through it. I adored Walter and his story….you gave him such a good life and a peaceful end. I had so hoped we’d have a Mpls meetup while he was still with us I wanted to meet him very much. I play the the youtube vids now and again. Walter is a great example of both the power of love and empathy and where there is life there is hope. You and John (and many many others) did great by Walter. Adieu, sweet Lily.
Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA)
@Planetpundit: Yeah, I’ve been checking in here repeatedly all day to see if there’s any word on how John’s doing. And hugging my dogs.
rikyrah
@Lee:
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Got a link?
spudgun
@Planetpundit: Me too…have been afraid to open Balloon Juice all day for fear of seeing a post from him.
Sending John and all his critters, especially sweet Lily, internet hugs.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: I’m copying and pasting my response from the previous post. Here’s the first one. The second will follow in a separate comment.
The FBI/DOJ Inspector General is doing an IG review.
1) The information was unclassified at the time he distributed it/leaked it.
2) It was retroactively up classified when DOJ/FBI did a review for redaction prior to releasing the memos to the relevant committee chairmen in the House.
3) Comey, as Director of the FBI, was an Original Classification Authority (OCA). As a result if he deemed the material to be unclassified, or if he decided to declassify it, he had this authority.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: Here’s the second one:
It happens to almost everyone. Either material is retroactively up classified as a result of a review for a FOIA request or a request for information from congressional committees or because another Federal agency gets the information and sends a request back to up classify it. Or because someone decides to just hang a document without appropriate markings on a higher level of classification server because that’s where all the bandwidth is.
Let me tell you a true story. When I developed the cultural prep (assessment) of the operational environment format at USAWC to support strategic level operational headquarters (corps, Army Service Component Commands, Geographic Combatant Commands), as well as offices at Department of the Army and Department of Defense, because it was research and analysis, we formatted it as a research report like you would get from a think tank. Because the majority of the military’s bandwidth is on classified servers, the first couple of these, including the accompanying slide decks I briefed, got hung on classified servers by people who’d received a copy. And because the original had no classification markings – to distinguish them from intelligence product – this technically up classified them. I got authorization from the Intelligence Officer in Charge (G2) at USAWC to go back and retroactively place UNCLASSIFIED header and footer markings on my originals and acknowledgement that for these projects, I carried the original classification authority on behalf of my commanding general (he, of course, got the final say via the G2). From that point on all of them had header and footer markings of UNCLASSIFIED. We did not change the actual formatting – so no paragraph markings – because we wanted to distinguish the products from intelligence products and we wanted to be able to distribute them far and wide inside the Army, the DOD, the Interagency, and even to folks outside the military and US government.
Let me tell you another true story: when I inprocessed at SOCOM I had to do all my annual training stuff to get caught up as I’d had several months off between assignments. Because SOCOM has limited unclassified bandwidth, they hung all of this stuff on one of the classified networks. Most of these things – like sexual harassment or anti-drug or information security, etc – are not just unclassified, but they have no classification markers at all. They are produced on unclassified systems and intended to be completed by the employee on an unclassified system. By hanging them all on a classified network because that’s where the bandwidth is, SOCOM had up classified all of these unclassified training modules. Which technically makes everyone who either hangs them on an unclassified server, which is where they’re supposed to be, or accesses them on an unclassified server, which is where they’re actually supposed to be accessed, in violation of classification rules, regulations, and protocols.
spudgun
@debit: Aww, darling Walter…now don’t get me started! I’ve cried several times already about John and Lily—
spudgun
@trollhattan: Yeah, this was my quandary yesterday – I was crying at work while staring at my computer screen and coworkers would walk by and give me weird looks. How to explain why I’m upset?
Manyakitty
@ruemara: Your baby is a genius!
Planetpundit
@zhena gogolia: Truly; as I responded to debit,both Lily and Walter are examples of love hope and redemption. We all, in small ways and large, can give those who need it. Doesn’t make that Terrible day any better when someone has to help a loved one with that last, awful kindness but it is something to the good.
Planetpundit
@Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA): and sending John positive vibes.
Planetpundit
@spudgun: yeah we are a pack of caring jackals and look out for our ow. Adieu, sweet Lily.
Waratah
@FlyingToaster: thank you that was great I sent it to my son.
MaryL
When I brought kittens home, I was somewhat concerned about my high-drive terrier mix, who was intensely interested in these new fuzzy automatic wind-up toys. Luckily, she’s also extremely food motivated, so after a few days of confinement with occasional short controlled visits, I brought them all into the same room and let the cats wander around. At the same time, I brought out high value treats and worked the dog through all of her favorite tricks. As long as she ignored the cats and focused on me, she got a treat. Ever since that one session, she acts like the cats are completely invisible.
ruemara
@Manyakitty: YES HE IS.
Ahem. I mean, he is certainly using his noggin.
VeniceRiley
@Mike J: Holy Jim Clinton! How extremely careless? Reckless? How did he put it about Hillary? God, what an a**hat.
Daffodil's Mom
Oh, another thing — to keep the cats’ food and litterboxes dog-free, and also give the cats some dog-free space without using cat-doors inside, you just need to keep a door or two (adjustably) ajar. Try a loop of string knotted around the doorway latch and then looped over the doorknob with just enough length to let the cats through but not the dogs.
JustRuss
Lots of variables when it comes to pets, but I find Aussie and German shepherds to be pretty high strung, not sure this is going to work. We had a black Lab move in once, and after a week he got along fine with our Siamese.
Recently have had a friend bring his very mellow husky over a few times, he ignores the cats and vice versa. Another friend has a very barky little critter, he stayed with us for a week and went nuts every time a cat appeared. he’d be a definite “no”.
J R in WV
We have had dogs with cats for maybe 25 years? We’re careful to teach dogs not to mess with cats. Our dogs know who is in charge of the food vault, and that they won’t get any cookies in the morning if they make us mad. That said, while our dogs are fine with our cats, once I drove up and the dogs had a stray cat up a tree.
I rounded up two of them, had their collars and was headed for the house, and the stray decided to make a break for it. Hell to pay. I feared they were going to tear him to pieces, and if they had I would have put them down. But I was able to kick the dogs off the cat and it got away.
Horrible event!
That said, our current biggest youngest dog is a 67 odd pound white lab mix, who torments the cats by licking their ears when they come into the house. The cats nearly put up with that, then realize it’s a dog tongue, and run away. Alice dog doesn’t chase them more than a couple of strides, because she is aware that they are both sharper than Alice dog and faster/quicker than Alice dog.
We’ve never had an accident between our dogs and our cats. We have twice had a dog to the vet/ER from neighbor’s dog attacking them. One of those attacker dogs attacked random dogs and they had to put her down. The other (really Big Female Rotty mix) dog attacks other females, all of them. They keep her inside and only walk her on a gentle leader leash. She was a rescue dog of neighbor’s late niece, and no one knows what horror she may have suffered to be the way she is.
The white lab youngest dog was from the shelter, 9 months old, card said she was OK with kids and cats, so I went for her. Worked out so far. You have to protect the smaller animals from the big bullies. Best of luck, it’s a good thing you’re wanting to do!!
Heidi Mom
I have one dog and two cats. The dog is the sweetest dog in the world, and she was here for about a year before the first of the cats arrived. There have been no problems on the dog’s end, and very few on the cats’. I agree with those who said it all depends on the personalities involved. That said, try to make the cats, especially the older one, feel as though they’ve lost nothing important by the dogs’ arrival — still fed at the same time, still petted or at least greeted every time you come near them, etc. Abundance for everyone!
DissidentFish
Story goes that when my 1987-1994 Kuvasz went to the dog trainer for sleep away training, at one point the trainer came into the kitchen and the trainer’s cat was in the dog’s mouth. A coffee mug on the noggin freed the cat though by no means hurt the dog, just surprised him. But he was an unusually unfriendly dog, unless you were me, my family, or an unafraid woman, or child. Men, dogs, cats, ferrets, large tropical fish — they were all coyotes in his eyes.
Walking that dog was like carrying around a lit bomb.
But he was nice to me!
lizzie
La di da di da oh hey maybe I should check for any answers to my cat/dog ques—WHOOOAAAAAAAAA ZOMG
WOW, thanks Adam, and everybody who posted (including in the earlier thread)!! I’ve read through them all and it’s all so helpful. You guys are the best! Lots to think about.
This is still mostly pie in the sky–among other things, when we’ve talked about it before, hubby came around to the idea of one dog, but when I mentioned these two dogs he backed away slowly from the crazy lady. Also, since we have never owned a dog and I’m used to being staff for cats, I’m a little worried about lacking the right instincts/experience to deal with a complex situation involving dogs. But I can’t stop thinking about the dogs so I wanted to find out if it’s at least a possibility or if it’s just absolutely a terrible idea and I was just being crazy.
Thanks again so much for all your time and thoughtful comments! What a great community. And so lovely to see that John and Lily have been graced with a little more time together in this vale of tears. A blessing on all your pets.
NCSteve
So just chiming in late as usual.
So, I grew up in a multi-cat and multi-dog household and always achieved a stable detente based on mutual disregard and zero adorable cross-species friendships. I have fond memories of the expression of aristocratic disdain our Siamese would get when the big, unbelievably dumb, loveble, dopey doofusdog Dalmatian would come trundling up to give her a friendly sniffing over. She tolerated it, but you could see the Leona Helmsley “Peasant!” thought balloon over her head.
But all that said, reading what you wrote, I think maybe you already know the answer, at least as to these two cats, and want someone to tell you you’re wrong. Maybe you are. You probably are. They almost always figure out how to live with each other after a couple of weeks of hissing and territoriality though when they don’t it can be very, very bad. But your instincts seem to be telling you that even they manage to achieve a stable detente, one of your cats is going to be permanently unhappy about it.
la caterina
@Adam L Silverman: and hydration advice, don’t forget that.
SteverinoCT
I have no pets at present, but my neighbor has an Australian Shepherd and a lab. Labs in general I would trust with all the above caveats, but the Aussie is great with people and grown more aggressive with other dogs as he aged to the point of sorta-fighting if they got too close, until he was called away. A cat or squirrel would be dead meat. Breed characteristics aren’t absolute, but they do influence behavior.
Adam L Silverman
@la caterina: True!
JAM
The cats, especially the older one, are not going to be happy at first. The dogs should not be a danger to the cats as long as you show them that you will have zero tolerance for chasing/aggression. Walks are really important for keeping them calm and well behaved.
The advice about restricting the dogs to one area is good, especially if you’re not present. The cats don’t want to worry that a dog could be lurking around every corner. The dog spot should not be the cat’s favorite room or the place where you always are, so that they feel shoved aside. Crates are helpful if you don’t have a lot of rooms. Good luck! I’m sure it will work out fine if you give everyone time.
JAM
Having just read my earlier comments, I think I may have been overly optimistic and I would like to add two important caveats: 1. The cats will probably always prefer living wo dogs to life with them. 2. The fact that you want to adopt a pair of dogs also worries me. A single dog will try very hard to fit in, but a pair might have an “us against them” dynamic going on.
That said, I have always had both cats and dogs and they have always done fine together. But none of them were older dogs or cats moving in to a mixed household for the first time.