Breaking from The Post:
Democratic Party files lawsuit alleging Russia, the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks conspired to disrupt the 2016 campaign
The Democratic National Committee filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit Friday against the Russian government, the Trump campaign and the WikiLeaks organization alleging a far-reaching conspiracy to disrupt the 2016 campaign and tilt the election to Donald Trump.
The complaint, filed in federal district court in Manhattan, alleges that top Trump campaign officials conspired with the Russian government and its military spy agency to hurt Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton and help Trump by hacking the computer networks of the Democratic Party and disseminating stolen material found there.
“During the 2016 presidential campaign, Russia launched an all-out assault on our democracy, and it found a willing and active partner in Donald Trump’s campaign,” DNC Chairman Tom Perez said in a statement.
“This constituted an act of unprecedented treachery: the campaign of a nominee for President of the United States in league with a hostile foreign power to bolster its own chance to win the presidency,” he said.
Well, damn! Apparently something similar happened during the Watergate scandal, and the GOP had to pay up!
Open thread.
cosima
I love you, Tom Perez.
Thoroughly Pizzled
Huh, I didn’t know that was allowed. Makes plenty of sense, though.
Give ’em hell, Tom!
aimai
Woah! Made my day.
MomSense
Tom Perez is a badass.
debit
Damn!!
debit
@Thoroughly Pizzled: I think I’m just so used to the shrug and “eh, what can you do?” response that this has honestly floored me.
Yarrow
Tick tock, motherfuckers!
Josie
All right, Tom Perez! You rule!
The Other Chuck
J’accuse indeed. Glad someone is finally stating it in unambiguous terms.
dmsilev
Clearly, Tom Perez is a neo-liberal sellout.
Thoroughly Pizzled
This is how you do it, Schumer.
germy
Is Wilmer a co-defendant?
trollhattan
This feels nice following yesterday’s news that Dem senate and house fundraising coffers are bursting at the seams. Tick and tock, two great favors together for the first time!
trollhattan
@germy:
Heh!
Patricia Kayden
@germy: Wilmer and Stein.
laura
This Friday is shaping up nicely.
Fingers crossed to hear more from Tom Perez over the weekend…
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’m not that kind of lawyer, but I’m perceiving some difficulty here:
1. Russian Federation is immune on this sort of action.
2. WikiLeaks is probably judgment proof but could be the conduit for drawing Assange in and potentially draining every asset he has.
3. Big delays due to witnesses taking the fifth.
feebog
I’ll see your raise and reraise……fuck it, I’m all in.
efgoldman
@MomSense:
Is this the same Tom Perez that the Wilmeristas warned was worse than Hitler and HRC put together? THAT Tom Perez? Good thing we listened to them, eh? Or not.
schrodingers_cat
Has the Sage of Vt spoken?
trollhattan
@efgoldman:
Yup. Perez is a wimp and Nancy SMASH doesn’t know what she’s doing. Those guys.
efgoldman
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I don’t expect it ever to come to trial, but the motions and discovery will be FUN!
rikyrah
Do they get to do discovery because of this lawsuit?
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
NEVER gets old
RobertDSC-iPhone 6
Good.
Msb
Thank you, Tom Perez!
Betty Cracker
The Post has the complaint. RICO is mentioned a couple of times. Hmmm!
patrick II
Could they have included the RNC, McConnell or Ryan or Republicans who took Russian money through cutouts or were using stolen emails via Russians/Wikileaks to aid in their campaigns? My OCD kicking in — sue them all.
JaneSays
@Thoroughly Pizzled: It’s allowed, but it’s largely symbolic. No chance in hell Russia or WikiLeaks will ever pay a dime for damages, regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit.
The Trump Campaign, however, might be a different story. Then again, even if they are found liable for damages, they’ll probably just follow Velveetamort’s standard course of action in these situations that he has done with all of his failed businesses – file for bankruptcy to avoid paying the judgement.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
How do Wikileaks defend on theft? If not legally then ethically. How is it right to steal someone’s emails? They’re not state actors. They’re just campaign employees. Do they say they are just conduits- someone else steals, they pass stolen property?
efgoldman
@patrick II:
I believe they could amend the complaint.
Trinity
Excellent.
opiejeanne
I did not remember the Watergate lawsuit at all. The Republicans paid over $700,000 after Nixon resigned. Sounds like chump change, but that was a few years ago. Today that’s about $4.4 Million.
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s the document for the Democratic Party’s lawsuit.
Adam L Silverman
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: My guess is this is about trying to force discovery in drips over the next two years and two election cycles – midterm and national. Keep it all in the news and publicly draw connections that Mueller’s team may be drawing out of the public eye. Finally, it is a feint. They’re hoping to draw out the President and his people to further incriminate themselves because none of them can keep their mouths shut.
MJS
This is great not only for the action taken, but for the coming reaction from Twitler. “In my many, many discussions with Russians during the campaign, everyone agreed their assistance wasn’t even needed. I took it only to be polite and improve relations once I was elected. Dems grasping at straws. SAD!”
Major Major Major Major
More neoliberal attempts to distract from the real issue—the failure of identity politics.
Leto
As it’s an OT: US grain ships diverted at sea hours after China imposes grain tariff
But trade war are easy to win, amirite??? Just the continuing avalanche of stupid…
efgoldman
@Major Major Major Major:
Correct!
Bows head in shameNo Drought No More
Not Watergate. But something similar had occurred five years before, when then candidate Nixon committed treason in 1968 by sabotaging the Paris Peace Talks while American soldiers, sailors, and Marines were fighting and dying in Southeast Asia. Americans were then, and remain, largely ignorant of Nixon’s treason; that is not the case with Donald Trump (et.al.). That fact alone makes the Watergate scandal pale into Teapot Dome insignificance, when compared to the mortal assault upon our democratic values that Trump (et.al.) are engaged in effecting in alliance with a foreign enemy. They are ALL traitors to this country. LEST AMERICANS EVER FORGET: George Washington wanted Benedict Arnold dead for his treason in alliance with a foreign enemy, and Washington was undoubtedly correct in demanding it, albeit and to no avail.
Mandalay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
IANAL either, but:
– Assange is an Ecuadorian citizen residing on Ecuadorian soil.
– The US and British governments have been unable to lay a finger on him for years.
– The probability that a lawsuit from the Democratic Party filed in the United States is going to make the slightest dent in Assange’s assets is about as close to zero as you can get.
schrodingers_cat
@Leto: T is destroying America at the behest of his Russian handler while R base including the ones in Congress cheer on.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker: Full disclosure: although this lawsuit might will make its way to the Supreme Court, where Democrats would certainly have standing to argue that the election should be overturned, and although it mentions RICO, I just want to state for the record that I did not take part in writing this lawsuit
Except for everything I’ve said along these lines for the past two years here at balloon juice
Thoroughly Pizzled
@Major Major Major Major:
Focusing on the Russian DISTRACTION is why Dems continue to lose, er, um, win a lot of special elections.
eric
@Mandalay: depends. if Wikileaks has a registered agent somewhere (hague convention, or otherwise), the ball starts rolling. assume service. then you serve a 30(b)(6) notice for a corporate representative deponent on specific topics. Almost certainly it would be Assange as the person to be presented. I assume that they would have to make accomodations in the Embassy. If not, then you can get a default against Wikileaks and begin post judgment asset fun. Not a slam dunk, but there are options to get some leverage.
BretH
In a sane country this lawsuit would have been brought by the Justice Dept. On behalf of the American people.
Leto
@schrodingers_cat: Well if it’s not tax cuts, or some other way to hold/grab/consolidate power (party before country), then it’s the fucking 3 blind mice routine from those igmos in Congress.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Isn’t there an emoluments lawsuit out there somewhere also? Anybody know what the status of that is? Last I heard was summer of 2017, it was supposed to start in the fall.
Another one where discovery (this administration is making me familiar with lots of new legal terms) should be fun. The same sort of “fun” as turning on the kitchen light and realizing the roach problem was much, much bigger than your worst fears.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
They very well may be protected entities under the DMCA, which was a piece of shit the moment it got signed.
Major Major Major Major
I’m off to bed, but before I go I just wanted to share this amazing vending machine product I saw (but did not buy).
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Major Major Major Major:
If Hillary had spent more time in Wisconsin, those disenfranchised voters would have crashed the polling places…
Yutsano
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Speaking of Schumer, he goes there on legal pot. Especially today that’s hilarious.
Major Major Major Major
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: worked for Feingold!
Mandalay
@Kay:
How did you feel about the NYT publishing material that was clearly stolen by Snowden? Material that clearly showed the US government had massively lied to its citizens?
Was it unethical of the NYT to publish stolen documents?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mandalay:
Oh, Assange never testifies, but I doubt that his assets are in Ecuador. He’s probably buried a bunch in the Isle of Man, The Channel Islands, Anguilla, the BVI and Panama.
Major Major Major Major
@Mandalay: I should hope it matters that wikileaks was in cahoots with the people doing the stealing.
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: Why didn’t you buy this? It’s almost as amazing as the famous German Canned Hamburger.
mainmata
Will be shortly rising at 3 am for the official “Flight of the Zombies” from Jakarta to Narita and points beyond. In my case, first the really endless haul to O’Hare (unless tornadoes, etc.) and then DCA (I’m not ever going to call it “Reagan”) and then Silver Spring, MD (home sweet home).
Hoping John is better.
Major Major Major Major
@MisterForkbeard: I got distracted by an otter cafe.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mandalay:
Difference was that FTFNYT wasn’t a participant in the theft. WikiLeaks was.
Yutsano
@Major Major Major Major: This was settled with the Pentagon Papers years ago. A newspaper is not liable for the source material’s origin, be it by theft or whatever means. WikiLeaks was actually involved with the theft by Snowden, so yeah, big big difference.
@Major Major Major Major: WHERE IS THIS I MUST KNOW BECAUSE REASONS????
Uncle Ebeneezer
Also, NY AG Schneiderman asking NY to close double-jeopardy loopholes with regards to POTUS Pardons.
https://twitter.com/AGSchneiderman/status/986688349091123200
Leto
@Thoroughly Pizzled: I think that’s a part of the messaging strategy Dems need to consolidate around heading into November (though it needs to be a like a 4th/5th tier item and should be tied into the overall larger corruption theme that Rs are enabling). I keep hearing that the party needs a central messaging theme (what do the Ds stand for???), and while I agree that we should have one at the top, I think where that really needs to happen is at the local/state level.
Specifically, if you’re a D running for a local/state rep position you should be stating; “I’m a Dem and I support these principles: *insert list*”, and they should be specific to that area. While some do transfer across the entire country (education *thanks Kay*, healthcare *thanks David*, and jobs), they should be specific items that people in that area care about. Police reform? LGBT/POC equality? Voter rights? This is part of being an engaged representative of your district/state. Listen to your people, know the issues, have a strategy to deal with that stuff.
People shouldn’t be waiting for the DNCC to take the lead on this.
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: OT – Adam, in case you missed it in the Guadalcanal vet thread, there’s an update:
I hope the family takes comfort in so many people helping and so many Guadalcanal vets reaching out.
Major Major Major Major
@Yutsano: I thought this was the case but IANAL etc
burnspbesq
@rikyrah:
If it survives the inevitable motion to dismiss, and doesn’t settle …
Gin & Tonic
@Major Major Major Major: The name is cool, but there’s nothing new about bread in a can (sorry for the edit.) https://www.walmart.com/ip/B-M-Bread-Plain-Brown-16-oz-Pack-of-12/23810026
JPL
@Uncle Ebeneezer: That could take some time.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: Of course RICO is mentioned. And get read for the RNC as an entity to be involved. They are a corrupt traitorous organization. They will pay.
tobie
@Jeffro: This just convinces me that the DNC reads the wise comments on BJ!
MattF
I’ve been a fan of Perez for a long time– he started out politically as a member of my local County Council. He practically radiates decency. Glad to see him doing his job and getting credit.
And that WaPo column by a reporter who tried to figure out Trump’s net worth for Forbes’ ‘rich list’ is great.
mainmata
Oh and about the lawsuit. It’s about the Dems finally taking it to the GOP and saying we’re going to make it really VISIBLE. Doesn’t matter if the case gets dismissed. There needs to be more of this kickass behavior even if it doesn’t succeed. It’s about social behavior change, IMO. Emboldening people.
GregB
McCabe to sue Trump for defamation and wrongful termination.
Leto
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Quick google search on that says last update was Mar 28th: D.C., Maryland can proceed with lawsuit alleging Trump violated emoluments clauses
Not really seeing anything else, but did see this and gave a snort: One of the nation’s most controversial governors *Paul LePage* finds himself as a key figure in an unprecedented lawsuit against Trump The more of these shitbirds we can wrap up, the better off we’ll be.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@mainmata: Actual Silver Spring or somewhere in the vast stretch of MD the USPS refers to as Silver Spring?
We lived many years in Wheaton, or “ Silver Spring”. First DC sniper victim was practically across the street from our house (but we’d moved a few months before).
tobie
@efgoldman: Wasn’t Rinse-and-Repeat Priebus running the RNC in 2016? Given what we’ve learned about him from the Comey memos, I hope he’s named as a co-conspirator in this suit.
MomSense
@Gin & Tonic:
I was going to say that I suffered through childhood meals with brown bread from a can. Only way to make it passable is to toast it beyond recognition and put the butter on with a trowel.
burnspbesq
@GregB:
Doesn’t he have to exhaust administrative remedies (MSPB) before suing for wrongful term?
And isn’t he a public figure?
MattF
@MomSense: Sounds awful. It occurred to me only recently that the fact that I hated vegetables throughout my childhood suggests that my old Mamma wasn’t much of a cook.
mainmata
@Major Major Major Major: Are you in the same time zone? +11 hours from EDT at this time of year? Well good night.I am also checking out.
schrodingers_cat
@MomSense: I should thank my lucky stars that my mom is a great cook!
JPL
@MomSense: Those were the days! That could be why I don’t put butter on toast, btw.
charon
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
From the Post:
Cacti
Odds that Wilmer will speak out against this:
99% or 100%?
MoxieM
@Josie: But, but…Ellison is Wilmer’s appointed, no,anointed, Dem leader, right? How can it be that Perez takes an assertive action? //
Barbara
@Leto: It is a continuing avalanche of stupid but at least in this case it is an avalanche of stupid that is in no small part the result of the individual stupidity (or racism or misogyny) of midwestern voters whose stupidity will at least in this instance boomerang on themselves. Not good by any means but not exactly undeserved.
Frankensteinbeck
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
You are wildly overestimating the man. From what I’ve read, he spends money he doesn’t have, and that’s one reason he ran away from Britain’s legal system.
MoxieM
@Gin & Tonic: I do love me some Brown Bread, but it’s gotta be the kind with raisins. But then, I love “Indian” pudding, grapenut custard, and I miss Bailey’s Hot Fudge sundays. My dad used to put molasses on milk crackers for a snack. yup. (Totally OT)
rp
Guess who thinks this is a terrible idea?
WhatsMyNym
@Yutsano: Pot is illegal?! Gotten so used to seeing the stores in Washington (the state, not DC) I’ve completely forgotten about it.
schrodingers_cat
@Cacti: DNC is spending its resources on frivolous lawsuits instead of the bconcerns of working people.
/channeling BS or one of his minions.
Gin & Tonic
@Frankensteinbeck: I wonder if Ecuador makes him pay for room and board?
Raoul
David Broder would have an aneurysm over this.
But he’s dead, so … oh, well!
schrodingers_cat
@rp: Independent senator from Northern New England? The one with the crazy hair.
Mandalay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
But how do you know that?
How do you know that they didn’t just publish material sent to them by some third party (which may or may not have been the Russian government)?
Steeplejack
@mainmata:
Tokyo is 13 hours ahead of EDT right now.
gwangung
@Mandalay: Isn’t that what discovery is for? And the court system?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@schrodingers_cat: A very random thought triggered by the phrase “crazy hair”: now I want to see a satirical biopic with Christopher Lloyd playing Wilmer.
Mandalay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
In which case your own claim about “draining every asset he has” is doubly unlikely.
Whatever your opinion of WikiLeaks, they excel in covering their tracks, and the tracks of others. The notion that the Democratic Party is going to get a dime from Assange is risible.
Chris
Damn, those Dems are not fucking around.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
That’s what the discovery process and the trial are for.
Wikileaks and its principals have every right to argue their lack of liability and present evidence of the same.
Although, I’m thinking a default judgment for failure to appear is more likely.
ruemara
Hmm, I think the GOP have dealt with this by stacking the courts.
Central Planning
@Major Major Major Major: When I was in Japan (1998), I saw vending machines with gin-and-tonic in a can, as well as 3-liter cans of beer that had screw-on caps and a handle you could clip on for easy pouring. Good times.
I think they cracked down on some of the more… adult-oriented items during the Olympics. :o
Mandalay
@gwangung:
Yes, exactly so. Yet Le Comte is presenting it as a fact that is already agreed by all.
gwangung
@Mandalay: Isn’t that what lawyers are supposed to do?
Your argument here isn’t very convincing.
Villago Delenda Est
It’s going to be difficult to depose the Russian General Staff, and I don’t think Ecuador will allow their London embassy to be further violated by lawyers interrogating Julian Assange, who doesn’t give a shit about oaths anyways.
But additional hurt on Donald and his minions can happen.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
Are we talking about the same wikileaks that left Manning to rot behind bars?
lollipopguild
But, but, but, this was supposed to be Infrastructure week! Again. We cannot have these frivolovley lawsuits clogging up our Legal System and causing constipation of our World’s Best legal System! Harumpf!
Corner Stone
Speaking of out fucking rageous:
Link to AP
Big banks saved $3.6B in taxes last quarter under new law
Last quarter! I wonder how many Costco memberships this will “nicely cover” ?
“While higher interest rates allowed banks to earn more from lending in the first quarter, the main boost to bank came from the billions of dollars they saved in taxes under the tax law Trump signed in December. Combined, the six banks saved at least $3.59 billion last quarter, according to an Associated Press estimate, using the bank’s tax rates going back to 2015.”
“Bank executives have said the majority of the savings from the lower tax rates will be returned to shareholders in the form of higher dividends and stock buybacks. Some of the money has gone toward higher wages for employees, and new business investments.”
Villago Delenda Est
@WhatsMyNym: In Tracktown, USA, the city council is entertaining an ordinance that would not allow dispensaries to set up shop within 1000 feet of each other. Then there’s the counter-proposal that they should all be required to be in the hipster district.
The current shops that are within 1000 feet of each other (and they are legion!) would be grandfathered.
It’s not going to matter mid-term, because there will be a shakeout of all these weed stores. It’s just a matter of time.
JPL
@MoxieM: My previous mutt was named Moxie after the soda. She was not a raving beauty, and her coloring reminded me of the yucky stuff. I met another dog named Moxie after the soda, but for the opposite reason, the owner loved the soda.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@rp: Some prolix guy in Brazil?
J R in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
Thanks for the humor!!! That’s really good…PanCan everfresh bread. just wow.
WE need all the humor we can get to distract us even momentarily from the real news facts. Not to mention the fake news, which is even worse.
lizzie
Since it’s an open thread….sorry in advance for the long post, especially by a lurker who rarely posts! But there are a lot of knowledgeable animal lovers here and I’d love some advice about whether to pursue adopting two dogs.
The dogs are 6 and 8, a lab/shepherd mix and an Australian shepherd mix, described as well-trained, well-loved, sweet family dogs. The family has a 2-year-old facing a serious illness and unfortunately they can’t care for the dogs anymore. They would really appreciate if the dogs could be kept together. So far as I know, the dogs have never lived with cats.
My family (me, hubby, one kid in high school, one in college), has two cats, 7 and 11. We have never had a dog and I’m very much a cat person by nature. But we also love dogs and for several years now I’ve been considering whether to adopt an older dog. I keep holding back because I’m not sure how the cats would do.
The younger cat is very sociable and outgoing, playful, and curious, which I assume would all help him adjust to dogs. The older cat is loving to us, but can be grumpy sometimes and gets annoyed and territorial when we have too many people over/there’s too much going on. He doesn’t hide, he just sits in the middle of everything like a grumpy old man grousing about the kids on his lawn. He is also just getting to the stage where he’s starting to feel older to me, it’s hard to describe but he’s just starting to feel slightly fragile when I pick him up.
When we took care of a friend’s puppy for a weekend a few months ago, the cats were extremely stressed about it (although the younger one was braver and more curious); but because it was such a short time I didn’t do anything to try to help them get along, we just figured the cats would mostly hide (which they did); maybe that was a mistake.
Is this a recipe for disaster, or possibly the beginning of a beautiful relationship?
Leto
@Barbara: The sad thing is that while they’re willing to blame Trump on this, they won’t stop voting R. They can’t quite connect all the pieces together…
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
I’m giggling because you still think Snowden was an honest whistleblower and not a Russian asset from the start. How naive are you, anyway?
Mandalay
@Cacti:
I didn’t realize that was how things worked these days. I thought it might be up to the Democratic Party to prove that WikiLeaks had conspired with Trump and the Russians.
Is this some new approach that Trump’s Administration has implemented: guilty until proven innocent?
Yutsano
@gwangung: I wouldn’t pay too much attention to Mandalay here. He gets all het up regarding defending the purity and honour of Wikileaks quite often. It almost approaches doth protest too much territory.
@Mandalay: …
You really don’t know what you’re talking about do you?
rp
@schrodingers_cat: No…but good guess.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne: Very.
rp
@Thoroughly Pizzled: You win! You can collect your prize money in Brazil or a safe house in Hungary.
schrodingers_cat
@rp: Brave lawyer who loves to pontificate, previously a Balloon Juice hero for his role in the Snowden and Manning saga among other things.
Leto
@Villago Delenda Est:
I feel like this is how it’s going to play out:
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: Some people can’t be woken up because they are just pretending to be asleep.
d58826
IT’S going to be a close race between getting Der Fuhrer out of office and the remaining guard rails collapsing
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/exclusive-trump-pressed-sessions-to-fire-two-fbi-officials-who-sent-anti-trump-text-messages/ar-AAw6SPG?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
JPL
@lizzie: You’ve come to the right place, and several folks can give better answers than me.
I separated a dog and cat for a few weeks, but they could still smell each others odors. The cat still was able to hide when necessary but it worked out.
The blog boss has been very successful.
efgoldman
@MoxieM:
“Sundaes”
Family legend has it that when my mom was pregnant with me, she used to roll across Boston Common from the then-West End part of Beacon Hill, to the original Bailey’s on West Street. The soda jerk would see her coming and have the coffee fudge scooped in the dish and starting the hot fudge as she waddled in the door.
My brother, his housemates and I got thrown out of Bailey’s in Chestnut Hill, in hippie days, for being too rowdy.
Mnemosyne
@lizzie:
I am not a dog person, but I would be wary of dogs that had not been raised around cats. You don’t know how much of a prey drive they have or if your cats are going to cause it to kick in.
Adam L Silverman
@burnspbesq: FBI Special Agents don’t have MSPB protections.
Chyron HR
@Mandalay:
Do you already have your goalpost-shifting response ready for when they do, or are you just winging it?
Kay
@Mandalay:
Campaign workers aren’t “the US government”. I said “they’re not state actors”- I’m aware of the Wikileaks rationale for stealing, re: state actors. This is not that.
The blind defense of Wikileaks means everyone is wholly vulnerable to the Wikileaks definition of “ethical”. It’s devoid of process and transparency. The campaign people didn’t get any process. Their communications were released at the sole discretion of Wikileaks. “Discovery” has process protections. The individuals robbed by Wikileaks got no process at all.
Wikileaks will benefit from legal protections they didn’t see fit to extend to anyone else. They’ll get an orderly process that is rule-bound and designed for fair treatment of BOTH sides in a dispute. They’ll get a level playing field. That’s better than they gave the people they robbed.
gwangung
@Yutsano: Well, I was in a mood to swat at pinatas with my eyes open this morning….
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay: Furthermore, Assange has, with malice aforethought, doxxed people in countries where their sexual orientation, if known, is a sentence of death.
Assange is scum. Defending him means one is scum.
Jeffro
Just a quick bet here that 99% of wingnut commentary on this lawsuit (and 100% of my RWNJ relatives’ response) will consist entirely of: GOOD LUCK SUING RUSSIA AND WIKILEAKS, LIBTARDS, HOW YUH GONNA MAKE THEM PAY HUH HUH HUH?
No discussion of the merits, of course. No discussion of…”you know, if parties were reversed, I’d probably do the same thing too”. Just a lot of BS about how dumb this is because Russia and Wikileaks will likely avoid justice…never understanding who it’s really after or what it means.
Kay
@Mandalay:
Wikileaks in this instance are the Watergate burglars. It’s the same thing. Except those guys were arrested and appeared in a court.
Assange hating Hillary Clinton is not a “public interest”. It’s not noble or high minded. It’s a little dictator believing it’s his job to intervene and swing the course of events in a direction he believes to be “beneficial”. I don’t give a shit what he believes about how the US should be run. I don’t think it’s his decision to make.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
This is a civil suit, not a criminal case.
The defendants are required to answer the complaint against them.
Lack of an answer can be and is held against defendants in civil proceedings, and could be the basis for a default judgment in favor of the plaintiff.
Your ignorance is excused.
JPL
@lizzie: Make sure you ask again on another post, to get additional opinions.
Mandalay
@Chyron HR:
The Democratic Party has already admitted that they have no new information when filing the lawsuit, and WikiLeaks has explicitly stated that they did not get the emails from the Russian government.
Regardless of whether that is true, if the Democratic Party can’t prove it then that aspect of their lawsuit is just stuff and nonsense.
Good for Tom Perez for doing this if he thinks it will fire up the base, but the notion that it is a serious lawsuit that he expects to win is absurd.
Jeffro
Y’all can spend time stressing about the merits of group A’s leaking to the NYT vs group B’s leaking…me, I just want to gloat and dream.
The chances of the 2016 election being officially overturned just went all non-zero. Still close to zero, sure. But NON-ZERO! =)
Happy Friday!
Mandalay
@Cacti:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the Democratic Party can’t provide solid evidence that WikiLeaks conspired with the Russian Government and the Trump Administration then WikiLeaks will be fine and you know it. Your ignorance is excused.
Cacti
Anyone here surprised that the resident Wilmerite is defending the honor of the wikileaks/Dotard/Russia cabal?
gwangung
@Mandalay: Given the legal acumen you’ve already displayed, I think your arguments, though well written, are rather weak.
Arclite
Can they sue Jim Comey too?
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
It shouldn’t matter if he’s “scum” or “good” or anything in between. The point is we don’t rely on individuals to be “good” or “bad”. Instead we rely on process. We rely on the idea there are rules and the rules create a level playing field in a dispute. Not always! Not perfectly! But Wikileaks has NO process, which means we are relying on Assange being “good” or “well intentioned”. Assange won’t have to rely on a judge being “good”. He’ll rely on a judge following the rules. He’ll get process and process is much, much better than making some half ass determination of motive.
Mike in DC
@JaneSays:
Doubt that would work. Trump2020 is effectively the successor in interest to Trump2016. Kinda hard to run a campaign while bankrupt.
gwangung
@Mandalay: Goalposts moved, I see.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
When I heard about this D lawsuit, my first thought was that it was payback for the R’s demanding that everyone from HRC on down be criminally charged. But apparently everyone is suing everyone.
TenguPhule
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
CIA now has a valid excuse to steal all their electronic banker money.
Cacti
@Mandalay:
Could you cite the Federal Rule of Civil Procedure where you found this?
Because the ordinary standard of proof in a torts liability case is a preponderance of the evidence.
rikyrah
@GregB:
does he get discovery?
TenguPhule
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Still in court since Justice is fighting it tooth and nail. Standing is still being argued.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Kay:
Exactly.
ruemara
@Cacti: Not one bit. I don’t even know why people argue with him/her/whatever.
@d58826: I wonder when people in the FBI start destroying the traitors in their midst that put this treasonous bastard into office?
JPL
Comey is under investigation for leaking classified information. One of his memos was classified after the fact.
https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/status/987375822754451458
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
Donald Trump gleefully used the communications stolen from these people. The same Donald Trump enjoyed the protections of the legal system re: raiding his lawyers office.
Donald Trump got process, including a judicial review, before anyone saw HIS communications with his scumbag fake lawyer. He doesn’t think other people should get that. Laws protect me but not thee!
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Mandalay:
This isn’t a debate on the internet or anywhere else that is simply an intellectual exercise; courts of law have different standards
Jeffro
@gwangung: Moved indeed. Ah well.
You all will not be surprised in the least to find that “DEMS SUE GOP FOR CONSPIRACY” is only the 3rd-ranked story right now on Fox News dot com…
#2 is how the Dems + Rand Paul are about to make a HUGE mistake not forwarding on Mike Pompeo’s nomination for a full vote
#1 is…drum roll please…a text that Agent Strozk sent about a statement by Obama that somehow was “not helpful” (I’m reading it as Obama should have looked more hands-off?) BUT NO MATTER WHAT ITS MOST DEFINITELY THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE FACING OUR COUNTRY TODAY!!
(on a side note, I’m thinking about looking around for a sound-effects gadget that mimics Fox’s “BREAKING NEWS!” fear-scam alert tone. I’m thinking it could be quite amusing next time I see my dad…)
Jeffro
@TenguPhule:
Is that before or after they pass “Go” and collect $200?
MoxieM
@JPL: It’s a regional delicacy!!
MoxieM
@efgoldman: I remembered “Sundaes” as a Friendly’s thing. Oh well, it’s been a while. Joy of Cooking’s Hot Fudge sauce is pretty damned good.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mandalay: You’re aware of how civil cases work, right?
ruemara
I’m seeing an ad for a rotimaker and suddenly I want large, single use piece of cooking equipment.
Cacti
@Villago Delenda Est:
From his previous comments, I would say not even a little bit.
trollhattan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Larry David has right of first refusal on playing Wilmer.
Barbara
@Leto: The only thing I can say is that in some of these states, it will take only a relatively few people to achieve enlightenment in order to make a big difference.
trollhattan
@JPL:
I thought only Killary mishandled ex post facto classified material. Comey too? Say it ain’t so!!!
schrodingers_cat
@ruemara: From the word on the street, its totally worth it. Will also make parathas and tortillas.
efgoldman
@Cacti:
No, it is not
TenguPhule
@MomSense:
So you ate a lot of buttered cans?
trollhattan
@lizzie:
Maybe you can create a situation where you can observe them around other, smaller critters. The shepherd mix may want to, well, herd them, their drive to do so varies a lot. They may be mature enough that they don’t stir things up, but then it’s also hard to guess how the cats may react. You’re a saint for considering helping out!
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: The FBI/DOJ Inspector General is doing an IG review.
1) The information was unclassified at the time he distributed it/leaked it.
2) It was retroactively up classified when DOJ/FBI did a review for redaction prior to releasing the memos to the relevant committee chairmen in the House.
3) Comey, as Director of the FBI, was an Original Classification Authority (OCA). As a result if he deemed the material to be unclassified, or if he decided to declassify it, he had this authority.
Kay
@trollhattan:
I never understood that part of the Clinton story. Couldn’t they do that with everyone who pisses them off?
“You said it! Now it’s classified!” It seems like a real recipe for abuse.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
OT – Here in the People’s Democratic Soc!alist Atheistic Kenyan Shariah Republic of Louisville, it’s Afterburner Day downtown (basically the practice rounds for the Thunder Over Louisville airshow and fireworks show that kicks off the Derby celebration month).
It’s actually a lot more exuberant during the practice day, and the noise gets everybody outside and thinking about everything but work. The peace fetishists get their panties in a wad, but the rest of us love a party.
A WWII squadron just buzzed by as I stand out here…
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
Let us be fair.
If McConnell keeps shoving unqualified assholes into the federal court benches there may not be much of a difference.
efgoldman
@Villago Delenda Est:
Obviously not
germy
@trollhattan:
I actually think James Adomian does the ultimate Wilmer impression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGRAonpLeQg
Larry David does a celebrity (a louder version of himself) impersonation of Wilmer, just like Baldwin’s Trump. But I prefer Adomian.
JPL
@Adam L Silverman: What it tells me is that voting is more important than ever, in order to save our country from the orange vindictive asshole.
Matt McIrvin
Corey Robin will be annoyed.
Kay
Why was it forbidden for Bill Clinton to talk to the AG during an investigation of Hillary Clinton but not forbidden for Trump to talk to Comey about the investigation into Trump?
If Comey had stayed on would he have had to recuse because he spoke with Trump privately about Trump’s case?
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
I can see this authority being abused if a completely unqualified buffoon becomes Director.
But that could never….oh.
laura
@lizzie: this will be the beginning of a beautiful relationship and will cause some chaos and will ease the hearts of their current family.
So many goods will come of this.
But no pressure…
PaulWartenberg
1) will this interfere with the ongoing criminal investigations?
2) will this shut trump up about “no collusion” “no collusion”
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
Clinton rules. Also, Loretta Lynch is a Black woman and therefore suspicious.
Kay
@PaulWartenberg:
It’s a good question. But we;ll never know because we never get any information about the criminal investigations until they indict. Which is good because people under investigation are supposed to get process protections, which the Trump people and Donald Trump are getting, because Mueller isn’t a disgusting hack and if Democrats in Congress know anything they aren’t blabbing, unlike Republicans, re: Clinton.
ruemara
@PaulWartenberg: 1. if all goes to plan. 2. As if.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: It happens to almost everyone. Either material is retroactively up classified as a result of a review for a FOIA request or a request for information from congressional committees or because another Federal agency gets the information and sends a request back to up classify it. Or because someone decides to just hang a document without appropriate markings on a higher level of classification server because that’s where all the bandwidth is.
Let me tell you a true story. When I developed the cultural prep (assessment) of the operational environment format at USAWC to support strategic level operational headquarters (corps, Army Service Component Commands, Geographic Combatant Commands), as well as offices at Department of the Army and Department of Defense, because it was research and analysis, we formatted it as a research report like you would get from a think tank. Because the majority of the military’s bandwidth is on classified servers, the first couple of these, including the accompanying slide decks I briefed, got hung on classified servers. And because the original had no classification markings – to distinguish them from intelligence product – this technically up classified them. I got authorization from the Intelligence Officer in Charge (G2) at USAWC to go back and retroactively place UNCLASSIFIED header and footer markings on my originals and acknowledgement that for these projects, I carried the original classification authority on behalf of my commanding general (he, of course, got the final say via the G2). From that point on all of them had header and footer markings of UNCLASSIFIED. We did not change the actual formatting – so no paragraph markings – because we wanted to distinguish the products from intelligence products and we wanted to be able to distribute them far and wide inside the Army, the DOD, the Interagency, and even to folks outside the military and US government.
Let me tell you another true story: when I inprocessed at SOCOM I had to do all my annual training stuff to get caught up as I’d had several months off between assignments. Because SOCOM has limited unclassified bandwidth, they hung all of this stuff on one of the classified networks. Most of these things – like sexual harassment or anti-drug or information security, etc – are not just unclassified, but they have no classification markers at all. They are produced on unclassified systems and intended to be completed by the employee on an unclassified system. By hanging them all on a classified network because that’s where the bandwidth is, SOCOM had up classified all of these unclassified training modules. Which technically makes everyone who either hangs them on an unclassified server, which is where they’re supposed to be, or accesses them on an unclassified server, which is where they’re actually supposed to be accessed, in violation of classification rules, regulations, and protocols.
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: This is true.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
I never thought about it, but why? Would it have been okay if Hillary Clinton herself had discussed her case with Lynch or the FBI director? Because that’s what Trump did. Under the Clinton Rules Comey had to recuse.
Adam L Silverman
@Matt McIrvin: Annoyed is part of his charm.
kate p
@lizzie: It probably depends upon how prey driven the dogs are. Even the sweetest of family dogs can have the urge to chase cats. Not always in a harmful way but it is still stressful for the cats. I have introduced a lot of dogs to my cats and even my very skittish cat seems to sense when a dog is harmless and soon comes downstairs to join the family. If the dogs are well trained and know the “leave it ” command it could still work even if they are rambunctious. You have to assume that the cats will hide for a while till they feel safe. Ask the family if the dogs take off after squirrels and if they follow commands even when excited.
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: I can’t help but feel that the country would be in a much, much better state if RICO had been applied much more frequently over the last few decades. Too many big organizations have not been held accountable for their crimes…
Go Tom!
Cheers,
Scott.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
IOKIYAR. The Live Action Movie.
Matt McIrvin
@Jeffro: The chance of the election being overturned is zero. Even if it were found to be completely fake, there’s no constitutional mechanism for overturning a presidential election, period.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: I never understood what the big brouhaha was supposed to be about FORMER PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON creating an appearance of impropriety or what have you. Donald Trump leaves a slime trail of impropriety with every step.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
Much worse than Bill Clinton on the plane, right?
One would think the NYTimes would be preparing a 10 count political indictment for suspicious communications.
What’s the excuse? That Trump is dumb and inexperienced? Or that he behaves like a member of a criminal gang , which is adorable and eccentric?
trollhattan
@Kay:
Exactly. “Mishandling classified material!” makes a great Fox talking point and while other new outlets may follow by mumbling “…but they weren’t classified until later” Fox wouldn’t even bother, since they’d be off and running with “Obama, tyrant or spineless girlyman? Our panel discussion next, on Fox.”
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
Beats the hell out of me. It’s quite clearly two standards. Actual obstruction is better than an alleged conversation on a plane?
One would think Mr. Ethics Comey woulda picked it up.
different-church-lady
@Yutsano:
Leto
@Adam L Silverman: Oh man, all that classification training pays off yet again!
chopper
@Mandalay:
that’s true in science, but not law.
Roger Moore
@Mandalay:
And they have evidence to present, e.g. evidence Russia stole the emails, evidence Roger Stone knew about them before Wikileaks published them, evidence of communication between Trump Jr. and Wikileaks, etc. Since civil cases are determined by preponderance of evidence, once the Democrats have presented a prima facie case, they win unless the defendants present stronger counter evidence.
hueyplong
Can someone please post that Wilmer has been added as a named defendant so we can cut to the chase and well and truly test the limits of Mandalay’s condescension?
Thanks in advance.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
Whew. When the de facto policy is “classified unless otherwise distinguished” on those servers and material goes onto classified servers simply because “that’s where the space is” it’s not hard to envision the results. Risotto, anybody?
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
The claim was that Bill was pressuring Lynch to drop the investigation into Hillary’s emails. Which, given that we now know that there was NOTHING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE is even more maddening.
It’s like, OMG! Bill Clinton tried to pressure Loretta Lynch into not investigating whether or not Hillary is a lizard person from Planet Leptar! Lynch must recuse herself from this important investigation!
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: I’m neither a) defending Mandalay nor b) starting a flame war; I’m asking because I’m not aware of dispositive evidence, and I’m curious.
Do you have a link to a summary argument that proves beyond reasonable doubt that Snowden is/was a Russian agent? (Or whatever you intended…)
Adam L Silverman
@Kay: And shortly after that Nunes freaks out over unmasking. Here’s what is really going on with this: the DOJ had gotten a FISA warrant for Flynn. And they’d had it for the back half of 2016 including the transition. So everyone Flynn spoke to or emailed with or texted in that time, as well as what was discussed, emailed, or texted, is in the hands of the FBI and now the Special Counsel’s Office. A masking team would have gone through and redacted the names of any Americans not subject to FISA surveillance who were either mentioned in Flynn’s phone calls, emails, and/or texts or who he was calling, emailing, or texting. So they would appear as American 1 or Congressman 2 or what have you. If, when the investigators reviewed these materials it became clear that in order to make sense of a discussion or email or text message exchange they needed to know who American 1 is, they would have then made an unmasking request. This would have been reviewed and either granted or denied. Everything that Flynn said and/or emailed and/or texted to everyone, and I repeat EVERYONE!!!!!, who Flynn called, emailed, and/or texted during the time that the FISA warrant was in effect, or who called, emailed, and/or texted Flynn and what they said, emailed, and/or texted to him, has their information in the hands of the Special Counsel’s Office.
This is why Nunes freaked out. This is why others in the White House freaked out. This is why others outside the White House freaked out about unmasking shortly after Preibus asked Comey about whether their was a FISA warrant on Flynn.
Ruckus
@Matt McIrvin:
I refer you to the 2000 election. What constitutional mechanism was there to not count votes? The USSC making one up?
Adam L Silverman
@Leto: Yep.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
Arms Control Wonk probably has the most concise argument. Adam has also said that, judging just from Snowden’s actions and public statements, that’s the conclusion he came to as well.
efgoldman
@Matt McIrvin:
Yeah, that’s out of the same fairy tale volumes as “the electoral college will do the right thing” and “let’s abolish the senate”
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: It can be a problem. Especially the lack of bandwidth. A great deal of my work at SOCOM as a Senior Fellow involved doing research. The vast majority of material I was trying to find is unclassified – it isn’t even government product. The bandwidth was so bad that if you opened more than two or three tabs on my desktop, the computer would start to lock up. So I spent a fair amount of time down in the library, which had its own dedicated server.
? Martin
@Leto: Interesting similar situation with soybeans. Even though China didn’t include them in their tariff, they mentioned they might. The price of US soybeans immediately fell about 5%, and Brazilian soybeans rose about the same. Europe who imported a lot of their soybeans from Brazil because of reasons turned all their ships to the US to get the lower prices and things stabilized. What’s more, under the TPP a bunch of soybean tariffs would have fallen and the US could export a ton more soybeans to southeast asia, so over the last few years they’ve been investing and building out capacity. When Trump pulled out of the TPP those investments looked very ill-advised. Should the China tariffs materialize, they’re going to lose their shirt – there’s no way they’ll be able to export relative to other countries.
For products like pork and chicken, we have a reciprocal relationship with China. We export legs and thighs and import breasts. The Chinese like the dark meat portions and will pay for it, while we prefer the reverse. Before the trade a certain amount of that stuff ended up being waste. For pork, it’s similar, they like the cuts we don’t and we like the cuts they don’t. There are some interesting stories around the rise of chicken nuggets, McRib, and chicken wings as engineering/marketing victories around food items that Americans previously considered to be trash. It may be hard for environmentalists to see McRib as an environmental victory, but it really is. Once this tariff really kicks in, expect the McRib to return – it’s mostly a arbitrage play by McDonalds to take advantage of low-cost pork cuts and dips in the market and use the scarcity of its offering to make money for a limited run.
I know it’s not popular to be a free trade liberal, but there are so many real problems that get solved by free trade that centralized planning can’t see or deal with. Tariffs have a zillion unintended consequences, and while they may be good for labor in some narrow markets, they are bad for labor overall as well as being bad for all kinds of other reasons – environmental, etc. You can solve almost all of those same problems by simply regulating the quality of the output rather than the cost of the inputs. China doesn’t export cars to the US (despite being the global leader in car manufacturing) because they can’t meet our safety or environmental standards. It has the same effect as a tariff to US workers, but also has the benefit of challenging China to raise their standards if they want to compete.
Adam L Silverman
@Dev Null: @Mnemosyne:
Aside from the fact that no major, or, as far as I know minor, defector to Russia (or its predecessor the Soviet Union) has not been a Russian intelligence asset, here’s some links:
https://venturebeat.com/2014/05/22/former-kgb-general-snowden-is-cooperating-with-russian-intelligence/
https://diepresse.com/home/ausland/aussenpolitik/5012057/Deutscher-Verfassungsschutz_Snowden-womoeglich-russischer-Spion
https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/geheimdienstexperten-im-focus-groesster-keil-seit-zweiten-weltkrieg-russen-versuchen-den-deutschen-bundestag-zu-infiltrieren_id_5439264.html
https://www.bild.de/wa/ll/bild-de/unangemeldet-42925516.bild.html
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/edward-snowden-russian-agents-house-report-232917
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/us/politics/snowden-national-security-russia.html
Captain C
@germy: Perhaps an unindicted co-conspirator.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Our media is firmly captured in the paradigm that Republicans can do no wrong, while Democrats can do nothing right.
debit
@lizzie: When I introduce new dogs to my cats, I always, always, always, do it slowly. Dogs in one room, cats in another, for at least a day. The dogs figure out that the cats belong, the cats get used to the idea that a new and smelly critter has entered the house. Before I open the door and let the cats peek in to assess the situation, I tether the dog to me. (Actually, I tether anyway until I know how they are with house training). I’ve been lucky and never had a dog lunge at a cat. They seem to know the cat was here first and has already established its ownership of territory.
The cats may growl and hiss, they may run up and slap the dog. As long as there’s no blood drawn, I don’t make a big deal of it. The growling and hissing may last for a few days. For my poor little dog Chloe, it lasted a bit longer. One of my cats outweighed her by about 5 pounds and would run up, tackle her, then slap her face and run off again. After a week of this, the cat abruptly decided she was okay and started insisting on sharing Chloe’s dog bed with her.
Of course every dog, cat and home are different, but I don’t think it’s hard to integrate new animals, as long as no one feels so threatened that they feel forced to react with violence.
TenguPhule
@? Martin:
Never bored here.
Jeffro
@Kay: A note to all once again that the Yates firing is second only to the Comey firing in terms of articles of impeachment . Or should be anyway
Jeffro
@efgoldman: dude those are my absolute favorite bedtime stories – why are you trying to harsh my mellow on such a beautiful day ?
/420-speak
Leto
@? Martin: Thanks for the additional information. I feel like I’m repeating a million people here, but this, again, shows just how little this administration (Trump) knows about anything. There’s no strategy involved beyond “winning”… and how the hell that might be defined at any given point/time. I’m sure tariffs (new/modified/rescinded) are probably vetted through the interagency process (Adam can maybe chip in on this if he’d like) to try to fully flush out the overall impact they would have on our markets and security, not to mention how those actions might play out with the country targeted, AND how our allies might benefit/suffer from this. There’s so much involved with a decision like this, and we have the OFC mull it over with two people (who said, “DON’T!”) and pretty much no one else.
Also the entire McRib portion might have made me laugh out loud in the office. Thanks!
cckids
@ruemara:
That will depend on who the Dems run in 2020. If the girl-hating-he-man’s club in the FBI decides that candidate is worthy, they will desist. Otherwise, we may be in for 2016 2.0.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@chopper:
It’s a great rule for life in general. It helps you tell fact from fiction, and keeps our perception of reality as close to objective reality as possible. It does not always apply to courts, however.
I find it telling how Mandalay has clammed up.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
It’s time to shift that paradigm.
MomSense
@trollhattan:
I’m old enough to remember when Chaffetz (IIRC) and Benghazi committee revealed classified information in the middle of a hearing.
For the record, I am pleased that I never fell for Greenwald, Snowden, Assange, or Wikileaks.
Frankensteinbeck
@Mandalay:
Given the stuff that has come out about Gucifer, I think the DNC will be able to make a case.
lollipopguild
@? Martin: Thanks for your comment, one of the reasons I come here is for comments like yours. Now if we could just get you on the talking head shows on TV.
Millard Filmore
@Mandalay:
IANAL, but I followed some the legal wrangling of Scientology and the SCO bankruptcy. Your concerns are mostly correct. The defendant can theoretically get this case thrown out for lack of standing. Or the case is filed in the wrong court. Judges do not want to waste time on frivolous work, so they demand that these cases start with some credible evidence of wrongdoing. Perhaps, as you say, WikiLeaks and Russia will be able to skip out of this by convincing the judge to drop that part of the complaint. Perhaps the Democrats have enough evidence to keep them roped in. Perhaps the Democrats are saying they are all in this together and they will pry evidence of foreign participation out of the Republicans, who they CAN get to.
Again, IANAL
Roger Moore
@Kay:
The only plausible answer is that Trump is different because he did those things as President, so he had legal authority over Comey. That at least distinguishes the cases, but not in the direction the Trumpites would like them distinguished. Bill Clinton probably shouldn’t have talked to Lynch about the investigation, but he didn’t have any actual authority over her, so she had every right to blow off whatever he said. Trump, OTOH, had the authority to fire Comey if he felt like it- as he eventually did- and thus his decision to talk to him about the investigation was a much more serious violation than Bill Clinton’s was.
Adam L Silverman
@lizzie: I have elevated you and your comment to the front page. Now you’ll never be able to lurk again!!!!
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Adam L Silverman:
Unless she changes her nym.
hueyplong
Yes YANAL. The first stage is whether the facts in the pleadings (assumed to be true at that point) state a claim entitling Dems to relief.
If so, whether those facts have evidentiary support is what discovery is for.
Gin & Tonic
@Leto: I was reading a story the other day about Arrow Fastener, a company based in New Jersey that makes staple guns. They are also the only remaining US-based manufacturer of T50 staples. Demand is increasing, so they were planning to increase their manufacturing floor staff – yes, in NJ. Only problem is they make the staples from steel wire imported from China, which would be subject to Trump’s tariff. 25% increase in supply costs suddenly makes them non-competitive, since all their competitors manufacture their staples in other countries (using the same steel wire) but there’s no tariff proposed on finished goods, like staples. Good-bye to those jobs in NJ.
Brilliant, no?
rikyrah
@Cacti:
Nope
James Powell
@Dev Null:
Are you talking about a criminal case or a lawsuit?
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: I see the theory, but, you know, Bill Clinton was just some guy. How does Just Some Guy get to be considered intimidating the Attorney General? What, one president was as good as another?
Barbara
@Mandalay: @hueyplong: In other words, no plaintiff needs to demonstrate ultimate proof of success on the merits in their first filing.
Along the way, these defendants might (or might not) try to get out on procedural or jurisdictional grounds, like lack of standing, sovereign immunity, and so on.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
If I didn’t know better, I’d think the people on Trump’s staff who are coming up with the tariffs don’t know their asses from their elbows.
Leto
@Gin & Tonic: I heard the tail end of a piece about food canning operations facing the same thing. It had to do with peaches? The peaches themselves weren’t subject to the tariffs, but the aluminum used to make the cans were hence the same problem as Arrow. Brilliant!
Apparently there’s a ton of companies applying for exemption from the steel/aluminum tariffs, but it’s going to be months before those applications are processed because of the volume of applications, as well as the fact that the office that deals with that is understaffed. Again, brilliant! Will our WWC learn? (redundant question, I know)
Edit: fixed a word
Fair Economist
@Roger Moore: I think the people on Trump’s staff are doing insider trading on their plans, and are putting tarriffs on things to favor their investments. This is why they are so bizarre and the the effects are poorly thought through – they don’t care about the effect on the economy.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Mandalay: Civil suits are about liability, not guilt. Do try to keep things straight, child. A concern troll who can’t keep basic details like that straight is an unconvincing concern troll.
Roger Moore
@Barbara:
IANAL, but I don’t think you don’t even need to present much hard evidence in your initial filing. A lot of these things just talk about “information and belief”, meaning the plaintiff has some inkling there’s something wrong but not necessarily solid evidence. The point of discovery is to move the case from suspicious hints to more conclusive evidence one way or the other.
J R in WV
@Mandalay:
Speaking of the NYT and the Pentagon Papers:
Firstly, the Soviet Union didn’t have penetration of the US government at all levels in the Vietnam era.
Secondly, the leaker was identified and even wrote a book about it. Read a history book about that era in American politics. Jeez, you sound so ignorant.
Oh, wait, have I been caught by a Russian Troll???? I bet I have!!!!
The Other Chuck
@Mandalay:
Bullshit. They just require plain old evidence, and the DNC is presenting mountains of it. There are these things called “hearings” and “trials” that determine the merits of the evidence.
KS in MA
@germy: Thanks–I lol’d!
Barbara
@Roger Moore: It has to be more than a conclusory statement of the law. There has to be a basically coherent statement of facts, however high level, that could, when viewed in the best light for the plaintiff, state an affirmative legal case.
Barbara
@Mandalay: Ordinary evidence is quite enough to prove any claim, extraordinary or not.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
Mnuchin knows perfectly well that you shit with your elbows.
germy
@Fair Economist:
Wasn’t Paul Ryan caught doing that?
rikyrah
@Adam L Silverman:
thanks for this explanation.
TenguPhule
@germy:
Its not illegal for House and Senate members to inside trade on information only they possess.
/sad but true
germy
@KS in MA:
We need all the laughs we can get these days.
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
Yup. If N=people in US making steel Nx1000=people making products out of steel. Trump does not care, and when that asshole Wilbur Ross proffered his Campbell’s soup can on TV to mock the very idea that paying a half-cent more for the can is meaningless I wanted to punch his shiny thick skull. How many cans in a bridge, Wilbur? How many in a 70-story building? How many in a Chevy Silverado?
Assholes, all.
Roger Moore
@Fair Economist:
I’m generally reluctant to accuse people of things like insider trading based just on their fucking up the tariffs, especially when there’s a priori evidence they’re a bunch of bozos. Of course, being bozos doesn’t mean they aren’t also trying to profit from their position of power; I treat Trump’s comments about listening to other countries’ requests for protection from the tariffs as a solicitation for bribes.
Dev Null
@Adam L Silverman: @Mnemosyne:
Thanks, will read and consider.
Mnemosyne, I regret to say that Jeffrey Lewis’ essay strikes me as little more than plausible speculation. Always dangerous to draw conclusions based on comments, but I share the reactions of quite a few commenters there. I was looking for somewhat-more-than-circumstantial evidence.
Perhaps Adam’s links include something closer to evidence.
What more interested me at the time was the question, “how is it possible that so many NSA employees handed Snowden their passwords?!? And why had the NSA not instituted Best Practice security practices?!?” (because that’s how Snowden got as much as he did.)
I say this not to distract from what Snowden did, rather to explain my reaction (at the time): perhaps Snowden inadvertantly contributed positively to US security by revealing the extent to which the natsec apparatus had failed to take its own medicine, thereby providing an object lesson into the importance of following one’s own Best Practice documents / doctrines.
Kay
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks for the info, Adam. I read your comments but I don’t respond because I don’t know how this works and you do – so I have nothing to add :)
germy
Roger Moore
@Barbara:
Sure, but my understanding is those “facts” are effectively what you believe to be true, not what you can prove to be true. So effectively you’re saying “this is what we hope to be able to prove after discovery” rather than “this is what we can prove now”. It still has to hold together as a case, but it’s a speculative case rather than a definitive one. Obviously, smart plaintiffs and good lawyers will be reluctant to start a case when “information and belief” is all belief and no information, which is a big part what keeps purely speculative cases from clogging up the courts.
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
Would you settle for dropping a year’s worth of production of filled soup cans that half-cent would apply to on his head instead?
Gin & Tonic
@Dev Null: “Contributed positively” would mean that you believe that the gov’t agencies in question have re-evaluated their data security practices and strengthened them. Do you have any evidence at all that this has actually happened?
Fair Economist
@Roger Moore:
Yeah, but we’re talking Trump people here. Trump runs his DC hotel as a bribery front, the Interior Secretary takes money from the companies he regulates, the Commerce secretary does business with the Russian firms he’s supposed to be enforcing sanctions on, the NSA chair was taking foreign money to have a cleric kidnapped, etc., etc., etc. Almost everything they do seems to have corruption as a key motive.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
And the rest simply haven’t been proven yet.
Dev Null
@Gin & Tonic: The Government Agency Formerly Known As Dev Null’s Employer (“TGAFKADNE”) did at some level: sufficient to be annoying, perhaps insufficient to be useful. I didn’t work in natsec (for some definition of “natsec”, anyway), so I can’t comment on whether NSA & CIA practices changed.
But gosh durn, NSA … Snowden was something of an own goal.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
IIRC, agency practices have changed after every convicted spy (Robert Hansen, Aldrich Ames, etc.) That doesn’t mean that the convicted spies were actually innocent.
You can argue that Snowden exposed some big security holes at NSA without arguing that he had innocent motives for doing so. His explanation for why he did what he did has always sounded thin and fishy to me, which is why I find the alternate explanation that he was turned by the Russians and was working for them to be much more convincing than the claim that he was a naive whistleblower who just happened to run to China and Russia with several terabytes of national security information after stealing it using known social engineering methods.
Ruckus
@MomSense:
I liked B&M Brown Bread in a can. Heated with a little butter…….good. I also liked their baked beans. Both still available in supermarkets. Can not remember the last time I had the brown bread but have had the baked beans within the last ten yrs.
Mom was a pretty good cook but it was nice to have a change of pace on occasion.
MoxieM
@kate p: I agree. And, the balance of animal relationships can change stuff. When I had 2 dogs (M/F) + 2 (M/M) cats there was relative harmony (well, the cats got into it from time to time). After divorce, the death of one cat & male dog, the remaining bitch would harass the remaining cat. (Both dogs were Newfies, so, generally pretty chill and non-high prey drive dogs…except this girl). She would do asshole things like lie in front of his cat door to the cellar (hence, cat box). We split them up, so now I am a dogs-only household. The cat went to a cat whispering relative where he lived out a very happy life.
Dev Null
@Gin & Tonic: To make the point a bit more clearly, and with the caveat that I don’t remember the details, I’m working from my memory of my reaction at the time …
… Snowden leveraged “human engineering” and lax technical security practices in ways that should not have been possible for anyone working within any organization sufficiently large to have a dedicated IT security staff…
… let alone the premiere American surveillance organization.
It verges on inexplicable that Snowden could have gotten away with what he got away with, and how he did so. (Not suggesting conspiracy; incompetence always favored etc.) I don’t know if heads rolled afterwards – I don’t remember seeing a report – but goshdurn, if heads didn’t roll, something is very very wrong in Denmark.
Best Practice security practices were well-known and widely circulated when Snowden made his heist; but (always IIRC) those practices hadn’t been rolled out in Honolulu or wherever Snowden was stationed at the time.
It was noir amusing to be reading NSA Best Practice security advisories one moment and descriptions of Snowden’s adventures the next moment.
Which is why I am (not having read Adam’s links) on the fence about the Snowden-as-Russian-agent meme: a spy should have to do some spying to get information. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that very few barriers were placed in Snowden’s way.
MoxieM
@TenguPhule: That must be why Cruella d’Mnuchin wears elbow-length gloves, no?
gvg
@lizzie: You said presumably no prior living with cats….I would try to ask them directly. They might have at an earlier time and been fine. they might have chased cats. A direct answer will help you make a choice. Of course, if they really have no background, see about some testing. Maybe even talk to people who foster. I think some of these animal placement agencies have test evaluations.
Yutsano
@Dev Null: …
You don’t know how intelligence gathering works do you?
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: Oddly enough, I agree with you almost entirely.
I’m not saying that Snowden was not a Russian spy; I’m saying a) I haven’t seen compelling evidence that he was a Russian spy; and b) he didn’t need maigcal Russian spy powers to hoover up all that TS / SCI information.
It was his for the taking.
I’m losing track of the point. We agree that Snowden might have been a Russian spy. I pointed out that, well, hmm, maybe; but until there’s compelling evidence, maybe not.
I asked for evidence. Jeffrey Lewis makes a circumstantial case, but compelling? Mebbe to you; not to me. One could argue that Obama’s pardon of Manning combined with his refusal to pardon Snowden is more circumstantial evidence. – shrugs –
Mebbe Adam’s links have compelling evidence. -shrugs-
artem1s
@cosima:
Ditto. I loved Tom Perez when I heard him campaigning for Hillary. Now I really love him. I think they should sue Zuckerberg too.
Dev Null
@Yutsano: – ROFL – Would you care to explain to me, SVP?
Thanks for sharing.
EDIT: I’ve said as much as I care to say about my experience. You can draw from that whatever you will, but as FB shows, not much metadata is needed to identify the individual. I prefer not to make myself easily identifiable.
And again, thanks for the laugh.
Barbara
@Roger Moore: Right. Putative facts versus legal conclusions, not versus facts known and proven to be true by anyone reading the complaint.
cosima
@artem1s: Was so glad that the DNC ignored the pressure to put the Wilmerite as head (to make up for some imaginary slight of the purity ponies?). The deputy (co?) chair Wilmerite is fine (name escapes me), but he’s no Tom Perez, and has decades of experience needed under his belt before he’s ready to ‘lead.’
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
I find the evidence that’s already available to be pretty compelling. YMMV, of course, but it may be worth asking yourself what level of evidence you would need. It’s not common for convicted spies to confess all, and convictions usually happen based on circumstantial evidence.
And the events of 2016 only hardened my conclusion that Snowden was a Russian asset the whole time. Really, you thought that was all a strange, unrelated coincidence?
artem1s
@JPL:
well fuck if this doesn’t break irony, I don’t know what can.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
Here’s a thought experiment for you:
Let’s say that, one day at work, you accidentally leave your car unlocked and it gets stolen. The thief then contacts you to tell you that he’s one of your co-workers. He stole your car, but it’s your own fault for leaving it unlocked at work. No, you can’t have the car back, because he already gave it to his brother, but you shouldn’t prosecute him for car theft because he did it for your own good to show you that your security procedures were lacking.
Do you find this line of reasoning to be convincing and agree to not report the thief to the police?
Chet Murthy
@Mandalay:
Three points:
(1) -our- newspapers publishing documents of public import for -our- citizens is something we defend, as a people
(2) It’s not so clear, is it, that Snowden was acting from pure motives. It seems possible (likely?) he was a Russian agent. I’m starting to believe that more and more.
[therefore] (1′) Maybe you ought to have asked about the Pentagon Papers. B/c there, Ellsberg was acting from pure motives.
(3) And this shitbird Assange is an agent of our geopolitical adversaries. He doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt as far as I can spit.
I don’t know what country you’re in (Boris) and I don’t really care. There’s a difference between foreigners interfering in our government,and -us- fighting amongst ourselves. there’s a difference between a political party getting help from some American third-party, and that party getting help from a foreign government.
And this doesn’t change b/c we do that overseas to other government. It’s not about ethics or morality. It’s about “what’s ours is ours, and we’ll fight for it”.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: “Events of 2016”?
You mean “Events of November 2016”?
Sorry, I’m not remembering Snowden’s involvement in the election.
If you mean something else, or if contrary to my recollection Snowden was involved … well, my memory isn’t what it used to be, but then again it never was.
Dev Null
@artem1s: er, ah …
How about: HRC accused of improper handling of class emails?
Retroactively classified, IIRC.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
Well, he did delete his most famous election tweet, and probably a few more besides. Perhaps he should have kept his big mouth shut if he didn’t want people to think he was trying to influence the election on Russia’s behalf.
And perhaps you should ask yourself why you find Snowden’s poor-little-naïf persona so convincing. ?
Barbara
@cosima: His name is Keith Ellison.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: – shrugs –
If you really think that was my argument …
… perhaps my point wasn’t sufficiently clear.
Let me put things a bit differently (and I have yet to read Adam’s links, which is getting ridiculous, but still):
Only people read into the programs know how much damage Snowden did to US interests, because classified / compartmentalized. I’ve never been read into any of the affected programs, so I don’t know.
What I know is what’s in the public record, e.g. how many Russian double agents leaped off fifth story balconies as a result of Snowden’s revelations. I’m aware of zero instances. Perhaps a few that I missed, but far fewer than mooted in RussiaGate.
One “e.g.” of many. Proves nothing, of course.
I have a bit more feel – for reasons – for how much damage can be done by lax security practices and inadequate / insufficient / ineffectual security training.
Given what bits and pieces I know about the consequences of Snowden’s heists – which as said is necessarily incomplete – the question of whether or not Snowden is a Russian agent seems less significant to me than the fact that America’s pre-eminent surveillance agency failed to implement Best security Practices and thereby got taken to the cleaners.
Even if Snowden is/was a Russian spy, he’s probably not the only Russian spy embedded in the USIC.
All that said, I asked because you seemed so confident of facts that are not known to me; I thought I would update my “database”
Fair Economist
@Chet Murthy:
Acting from ideological motives and being a Russian agent are not incompatible. A lot of spycraft is about getting people to do things for at least what they think are their own reasons.
I have to agree it looks like Snowden was probably talking to and working with the Russians years before the defection.
Leto
@cosima: @Barbara: I know this is a dead thread, but as Barbara pointed out, that’s Congressman Keith Ellison.
Either of them would’ve been a good fit to lead, and Perez nominated Ellison to be the Deputy DNC Chair minutes after he was selected. They’ve both been working in unison to do good things and bring about effective change. While he did endorse Bernie early, as soon as HRC secured the nomination he endorsed her. Again, they’re both working together to do good/bring positive change.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: Oh, gosh.
Snowden a Russian agent because Goldman Sachs.
I’m convinced!
One of my prepper relatives – a far-right-wingnut – made exactly this argument before the election.
Perhaps my relative is a Russian agent too. Hey, come to think of it, my relative has connections to law enforcement … oh, dear. I never suspected.
Srsly, if calling HRC the Goldman Sachs candidate makes Snowden a Russian agent, then the US is in deeper trouble than I suspected.
As regards The Guardian article, what exactly do you think the article proves?
EDIT: I’d like to point out that many people preferred Trump to HRC for what they felt were perfectly good reasons. Some of them are even decent people, like my relative (believe it or not).
They’re idiots.
But they’re not necessarily all Russian agents.
J R in WV
@Mandalay:
Oh, no!!! WiliLeaks has told us that she is innocents, we’re all wrongs, they didint do anyfing!!! We’re so wrong… Somebody NOT the Russian Government, who would NEVER fib about their state actors, must’ve given them the Blue quizillion super sekret emailz. Who could it bee?????
Sorry, that isn’t how this works. You appear to be a complete naief unaware of how any governmental thing works. Didn’t take the civics class? Slept through the civics class? Took a civics class in some other nation? Now I’m getting close.
No one who has been awake and aware for a few years could possible be that ignorant of how their government works internally. Maybe you’re just 12 years old? Civics class not until 2024?
Dev Null
@Leto: What you said.
Perez and Ellison are both good people. Ellison is Muslim, as you say, and for that reason I had a mild preference for Ellison. But Perez is fine.
I was disappointed when HRC choose Kaine as her VP running mate rather than Perez (who was rumored to be in the running.)
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
So you don’t have all of the facts, haven’t bothered to read Adam’s links, but are still convinced that you’re right and Adam is wrong. All righty then.
Does your relative live in Moscow thanks to a pension granted to him by Vladimir Putin like Snowden does?
If not, there’s another word for your relative: “willing dupe.”
But, sure, Snowden lives and works in Moscow on the Russian government’s dime because Putin is just that nice of a guy. It’s certainly not a Kim Philby-style reward for services rendered. Only a suspicious-minded person would think that.
J R in WV
@Another Scott:
Like Wells Fargo, fined a billion dollars for mistreating their customers, but should be out of business to teach financial institutions not to mistreat their customers. No one dies in a corporate death penalty, they just need new jobs.
J R in WV
@Millard Filmore:
I thought I was the only person who followed the SCO Unix/Linux legal saga day by day. Of course, I was being paid to keep track of that stuff back then! SCO didn’t have a leg to stand on, and it still took years for them to be put away by the legal system. They squirmed and wriggled, and then they were put away.
Dev Null
@Adam L Silverman: @memosyne
Somewhat more compelling than Jeffrey Lewis’ essay (which was not compelling IMO, although reasonable people can agree to disagree.)
The most compelling reference is venturebeat (which I am not familiar with) which quotes Kalugin:
… and even then … that Flynn? Or even Kalugin: “I believe he shared all of it with the Russians”? (My emphasis.)
The rest, meh. e.g FTFNYT ref:
As an unassailable statement that Snowden was a Russian spy… well… it leaves something to be desired.
To be clear: how you read these articles depends on what you’re trying to prove.
Has Snowden shared information with the FSB since arriving in Russia? It would be surprising if he has not.
Was he a Russian spy when he worked in Hawaii? Possibly earlier?
As Fair Economist says (#284):
By the same token, acting from ideological motives and not being a Russian agent are not incompatible.
Let me step back a bit.
In a very real sense, whether or not Snowden was a Russian spy at the time he heisted NSA dox is unimportant, because whatever damage he caused the US, there is no reeling his actions back. What’s done is done. And that damage is done whether or not Snowden was at the time a Russian spy.
The more interesting questions IMO are:
1) why was Snowden able to snag as much information as he did?; and
2) how does the USIC prevent this from happening again? (and more generally, how does the nation as a whole deal with our insanely insecure network protocols, our insanely insecure network equipment, and our dependence on “heroes” to secure those networks. It is well-known that one manufacturer’s COTS routers are sold with the same known vulns, model generation after model generation. Similarly IoT devices.)
I was interested in the question “was Snowden a Russian spy when he worked in Hawaii?” only because I wasn’t aware that the question has been definitively answered.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: When you have no argument, go with misconstruing the other side’s arguments and falling back on ad hominems. ~shrugs~
FWIW – nothing – I hadn’t read Adam’s links because I was responding to you and interacting in comments at another blog, both in real time.
I’ve now read Adam’s links and responded. Should you care, my response should be one or a few comments upthread.
And while it’s not really relevant to Snowden, to the extent that I can tell I was waaay more affected by the OPM breach – think 100 pages of your most private personal information in the hands of state adversaries – than I was by Snowden’s actions.
Perhaps Snowden indeed caused existential damage to the nation. I don’t know.
I do know that OPM’s incompetence allowed perps to open credit card accounts using my information.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
I do find the sudden appearance of Michael Flynn to denounce Snowden to be quite curious given this passage from the 2014 Arms Control Wonk essay:
Having an apparently “clean” operative denounce one who’s already been revealed seems like par for the course for the GRU. But if you prefer not to follow where the evidence leads you, who am I to try and force you down that path?
If we’re only supposed to be concerned about the data breaches that personally affect us, then the Sony breach was far more consequential to my world. Of course, it didn’t have much to do with Trump’s “victory,” either.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: If you follow the links in the venturebeat story you will discover that Flynn made his statement about Snowden in early March 2014.
Flynn was forced out of DIA two months later.
~shrugs~
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
And then came back as Trump’s national security advisor.
Just another weird coincidence, I’m sure. Funny how all of these unrelated coincidences are tied to Russia. I’m sure there’s nothing to see here, though.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: Do I understand you correctly to be saying that Flynn was a Russian agent during his tenure as director of DIA?
Y’know, perhaps that’s not libel – for all I know the law might consider Flynn to be a public figure – but if I were in your shoes I sure wouldn’t go there. Not without consulting an atty, anyway; and certainly not as part of a back-and-forth discussion on a blog – even this blog. But perhaps you’re an atty and you are confident that you have no legal exposure when you describe Flynn as a Russian agent circa March 2014.
But y’know? I wouldn’t go there even if I were confident that I had no legal exposure, because … well, never mind.
Perhaps I misunderstand you. ~shrugs~
By the way, wrt to Sony exposure vs OPM exposure, I am surprised that you compare the two. I’ve worked in the commercial sector and I’ve worked for the government. The information I had to disclose to the government for my clearance investigation was orders of magnitude more extensive than the information I had to disclose to my commercial employer. I would guess that a commercial enterprise which required prospective employees to provide even 10% of what the government requires would be in violation of statutes, but IANAL and perhaps you know better.
And speaking of weird coincidences, here’s a weird coincidence for ya: Flynn had a security clearance, Snowden had a security clearance … and I had a security clearance. And I am not accepting your statements about Snowden and Flynn, which must mean … Russia, amirite?!?! ~cues scary music~
Funny about all these unrelated coincidences, eh? I’m sure there’s nothing to see here. ~dryly~
Dev Null
@J R in WV: SCO were scum.
But perhaps I’ve had too many beers.
cosima
@Leto: I was aware of that, but commenting in a time zone 4-8+ hrs ahead of most BJ folk means that sometimes my brain is already getting sleepy when you are all just getting started. Congressman Ellis is fine, but one has to ask why Wilmer vs Hillary? What was the driver? All of the excellent progressive legislation that Wilmer had supported &/or proposed &/or passed (//)? A Y chromosome? I hadn’t realised that he was in his mid-50s, though — he looks like a baby. I thought that Perez had at least 10 years on him, more most likely. I was wrong!
They work well together as a team.
cleosmom
@Jeffro: Nevertheless, in 134 comments so far, I haven’t run across the phrase “move on.”