Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu just gave a presentation on a ton (well, a half-ton) of Iranian documents and cds. The bottom line is that Iran had a nuclear weapons program up until 2003. They lied about it at the time and have not fully revealed what they were doing.
Those of us who were paying attention, and the negotiators of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, knew that. The JCPOA was designed not to allow that to happen again.
The presentation featured slides with pictures and not too many words.
Well, that was interesting #Israel claims to have acquired 55,000 pages of documents and another 183 CDs on what it calls #Iran's #NuclearWeapons programme. Some images basic, some very interesting indeed. pic.twitter.com/rsc1fAH4mW
— Andreas Persbo (@Andreas_Persbo) April 30, 2018
Subtle pic.twitter.com/Joumi6Vbpt
— Tobias Schneider (@tobiaschneider) April 30, 2018
Whew pic.twitter.com/Uwvj3D23UG
— Tobias Schneider (@tobiaschneider) April 30, 2018
Oh wow I'm not going to go to bed on time tonight, huh pic.twitter.com/SZlHcxC2RA
— Tobias Schneider (@tobiaschneider) April 30, 2018
— Tobias Schneider (@tobiaschneider) April 30, 2018
Meh
— Tobias Schneider (@tobiaschneider) April 30, 2018
Look for Fox to blow this up into a big deal. Maybe even some of the MSM who haven’t been paying attention. It’s cover for Trump to ditch the deal.
And Open Thread.
Corner Stone
“I hold in my hand, a vial of anthrax.”
Corner Stone
So one thumb drive’s worth of data?
Bostondreams
“I am shocked, shocked, to find that there is gambling going on in here!”
Shell
Wheres that drawing of a SPYvs.SPY bomb with the lit fuse?
Major Major Major Major
The rack of CD’s is a ludicrous visual aid in 2018.
kindness
Seems what is actually important is that Iran stopped it’s nuclear weapons program in 2003.
That is what I see as important. Bibi can go to hell.
Corner Stone
Bibi should have known better than to have a huge white screen behind him. I will wait for the endless memes to change “Iran Lied” into all kinds of funny. Which I will laugh at until the blast wave hits.
Chyron HR
MIKE: Hey, it’s the new Game of Thrones!
CROW: And several unsold copies of Tormato.
joel hanes
War on / in huge, mountainous Iran will be an endless quagmire, a war the US cannot win.
Like Viet Nam, but with no in-country allies at all. Much worse than armor-playground Iraq.
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone: The bio-labs are designed to look like icecream trucks.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major:
I think it’s kind of hypnotic. Like a 1990’s version of a big disco ball.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Justin Bieber’s greatest hits.
TenguPhule
@Bostondreams: Your winnings, sir.
trollhattan
@Shell:
Exactly. I demand my cartoon Acme-brand bomb! You’re slipping, Bibi.
Likud is second only to the US Republicans in the category political party doing the most damage to the world. I hope they’re proud.
Stan
Given the giant cartoons it seems the real audience for this thing was trump.
Cheryl Rofer
The presentation is now on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qBt4tSCALA
Peale
So we are going to rip up the agreement because of something that ended in 2003? I mean, I know we’re going to go to war with Iran eventually so we might as well get it over with now and remember the hostages from 40 years ago let’s get even are considered valid reasons. So I guess adding “they lied to us you can’t ever trust them” as a sound reason.
Corner Stone
@joel hanes:
There’s nothing like going to conventional war with a country of 80M. And as for no allies, what is Turkmenistan, chopped liver? I mean between them, Afghanistan, Pakistan…Turkey….Iraq….oh.
Brachiator
Why do I think that the US and Israel have been working on this for some time?
Trump is hot for a Nobel Prize for doing practically nothing to get North and South Korea together. It’s his re-election insurance.
But he can dump the Iran deal and let Israel and Iran go to war, with the US (and Russia) only supplying weapons not soldiers and keep his hands clean.
Tony Jay
@Major Major Major Major:
If could be those are the real pee-tapes. Mossad is supposed to be quite good at the spy business. Leverage is leverage.
guachi
185 CDs? LOL.
What year does he think it is? 1994?
That’s about 100 GB or about the amount of stuff you can fit on one $30 thumb drive.
Yutsano
Did anyone bother to ask Bibi what his point was? Because this is nowhere near new info.
opiejeanne
Max Boot
Verified account
@MaxBoot
32m32 minutes ago
More
Max Boot Retweeted Mark Dubowitz
Yes but does any of this contradict US Intelligence Community assessment–echoed by Jim Mattis last week–that Iran is abiding by the terms of the JCPOA re centrifuges, enrichment, etc? And if not, why is this an argument for tearing up JCPOA?
Jay S
@Shell: The lit fuse bomb was my first thought too.
The CD panel is kind of pretty. Might make a nice room divider.
Steeplejack
Do the pictures have circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one is?
Wild Cat
Next thing you know is that Iran will be pulling premature Israeli nuclear fetuses out of their incubators.
trollhattan
O/T Pay to play, the Trump-Pruitt way. Carl Icahn oil refinery receives financial hardship waivers saving him millions and giving us more pollution.
opiejeanne
@Chyron HR: Tormato? That sounds like a very messy nasty storm.
trollhattan
@Jay S:
That’s actually an early rejected Pioneer design for a multi-disc CD changer. They went with a carousel instead.
trollhattan
@opiejeanne:
Also a tasty breakfast blender drink.
Roger Moore
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s enough coasters for a lifetime.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
For a moderate drinker sure.
But who’s moderate these days?
Yutsano
@trollhattan: Might be time for someone to go all Erin Brockovich here. That’s ridiculous.
TenguPhule
@Yutsano:
“Bomb Iran. Do it now. NOW NOW NOW!!!” //
ruemara
I’m sure there’s no purpose behind this. We might be able to start unfucking ourselves, but not sure if we can unfuck the world. Bigotry & hatred are amazingly productive methods to gain power.
MisterForkbeard
So the net-net on this is:
* We already knew all of this, and it was known when the Iran Deal was being written. The deal specifically has provisions to deal with this and prevent it from happening again.
* The first point doesn’t matter, because Trump will use this as an excuse to pull out and will ignore that Iran is currently meeting the provisions of the deal.
That sound about right?
TenguPhule
@MisterForkbeard:
Pretty much.
*FOX will pretend this actually happened after the deal and will promptly blame Obama for it.
John Revolta
Gee, is this the same guy who’s being investigated for bribery? Seems like I heard sumthin’………………………
OH LOOK! AY-RABS!! GIT ‘EM!!!1!!!!1
Stuart Frasier
What’s crazy is that we keep demonstrating to despots the value of having a nuclear weapon. The countries that give them up can end up like Iraq and Libya, those that keep them can get a summit.
Mart
@TenguPhule: They have been blaming Obama for not blowing up Iran since 2008.
Corner Stone
@Yutsano:
“Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain! For the love of Pete, PLEASE STOP LOOKING AT ME AND FOCUS ON IRAN!!”
Gvg
I think it’s worth pointing out that Bibi is being investigated for various criminal things and is apparently in trouble which started before Trump was elected.
This seems like a kind of wag the dog by him, for his needs, and doesn’t need Trump to explain.
r€nato
Bibi would love to have US soldiers die for Israel’s foreign policy goals, and for US taxpayers to foot the bill for it all.
Cheryl Rofer
@Corner Stone: It begins. More in this thread.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Corner Stone:
Actually, if you were looking at them on a computer or phone, you’d be scratching your head wondering why the screen suddenly went black. Then the blast wave would hit.
Jay S
@Corner Stone: You could replace Iran with Bush on that whiteboard easily, but I’m not sure where you get the lol’s. I guess I’ll have to wait. ETA or maybe not @Cheryl Rofer:
SFAW
@Gvg:
I heard Bibi started his presentation by screaming about Michelle Wolf’s “filthy” WHCD appearance.
MisterForkbeard
@TenguPhule: As the old joke goes, I drink like I do politics: Liberally.
rikyrah
@joel hanes:
No lie told.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@SFAW:
For reals? Crazy world we live in that I would seriously ask that
Ian G.
@opiejeanne:
Even the neocon Max Boot…..!
Brachiator
@joel hanes:
Trump believes that the war will last a couple of days, and will be such a huge success that the US will have a dollar a gallon gasoline a week later.
And Glenn Greenwald will remind everyone that Hillary would have been worse.
But we may have the worst of the Cold War era all over again. If Iran gets cozier to Russia, it might make a war with Iran impossible, no matter how much Trump and Bibi might want it.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah: Iran has access to the Persian Gulf, one of the most vital water traffic areas in the world. They can spread the pain in a hurry to everyone else if attacked.
PeakVT
Yawn. Bigly.
guachi
It’s ironic that Israel is accusing anyone of lying about nuclear weapons.
jl
If I understand the news reports on this correctly, what Netanyahu did was pull a shitload of stuff from a 2011 US (or UN?) report, and all regarding stuff that the Iran nuke deal was designed to prevent happening again in the future, and he is trying to pass it off as new intelligence. Is that correct?
If so, then Netanyahu is trying to manufacture a a big lie.
And if so, shouldn’t that be made clearer at the top of the post?
Edit: and if the above is correct, was there a diagram of Boris lighting a big cartoon bomb with a short fuse this time too?
SFAW
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
No, just kidding. However, I agree with your second sentence. How many times has someone here noted that reality has overtaken The Onion?
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
The Rumsfield Doctrine. This time as farce.
Speaking of which, that asshole seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth.
I imagine a lot of displaced Iraqis are trying to find where he’s living these days.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Brachiator:
It’s impossible to sane people. Trump and Bibi aren’t playing with a full deck. However I still think Trump is too much of a coward to start a war.
Mnemosyne
@Jay S:
My Photoshop skills are pretty basic, but even I could erase the black text from the white background and then do a new text box saying whatever I want, or insert an image.
bluehill
It would be interesting to see Bibi’s reaction if Iran said that it was willing to give up its nuclear program entirely and wanted to meet with Trump.
Jay
@Brachiator:
Only Trumpista’s think that welching on the Iran Deal is a great way to get a NORK deal.
Even NORK’s arn’t as dumb as Trumpista’s.
On the bright side, welching on the Iran deal will drive another spike into the NATO and Western Alliance, so it will make Treason Tribble/The National Russian Alliance/ the Gobbel’s Own Party callusionista’s boss, Putin, very, very happy.
Lapassionara
@Yutsano: But Trump doesn’t know that this is not new info. And Bolton will add the icing on this, in case Trump needs encouraging.
Jay S
@SFAW: Just for you https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/991024224100855808
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Jay:
How is that a bright side?
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: I use a Zip disk as a coaster at work.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
Technically Trump has already committed acts of War against Syria.
I think those who think Trump is too much of a coward to start something he has no control over aren’t looking at the right side, look at Trump’s victims for where the threat of war is. Trump himself has no problem with attacking other countries.
ruemara
@Major Major Major Major: Man, I suddenly feel ancient. And then it passes because I am so glad for better options.
@Brachiator: This won’t be a Cold War. These are not rational minds pushing it. These are rabid partisans, not just war profiteers who want war over there and profit over here. They are more than willing to have a hot, nuclear war and it would be good to keep that in mind.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
@Roger Moore:
Hey those could worth something someday as antiques assuming the world/civilization doesn’t end.
The Moar You Know
@r€nato: That’s been his goal for his entire career. I suspect most of Israel is fine with that.
Jay S
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: Irony, how does it work?
ETA their are too many Jays on this blog.
jl
Again, I was caught out not reading all the comments first. A lot of people are wondering whether the cartoon bomb is in there again.
My apologies. But, a full service blog would have reported that out…. I’ll send Cole a high priority email about it.
TenguPhule
@jl:
Full service costs extra. You have to pump your own gas for now.
Raven Onthill
This lot won’t be satisfied until there is a nuclear war in the Middle East.
Shana
@Steeplejack: Since no one else has commented on this: I got it. A Thanksgiving tradition in our house.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@TenguPhule:I wonder what Putin would think of his boy then, dragging Russia into a world war?
trollhattan
Occurs to me the wall o’ CDs could mean Bibi is relaunching AOL. Check your mailboxes, that looks like about a year’s worth.
Josie
@jl: Make sure your email is in all capital letters. He prefers those.
mai naem mobile
Will Eric,Donnie Dumbo Jr and Jared suit up and serve or do they all have bone spurs ?
Corner Stone
@jl:
Make sure it’s in all caps. And make the Subject something like, “YOU REMODELED YOUR KITCHEN ALL WRONG” to make sure he reads it ASAP.
jl
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: I read that sometime during the campaign the Russian brass put their foot on the brakes for their aid for Trump for a while after he went on one of his deranged moron jags. Too bad they didn’t have the good sense to keep the brakes on permanently.
maya
I don’t see any string. Without string how can we connect the dots?
ruemara
@The Moar You Know: Haven’t they been fine with that for decades?
Corner Stone
@trollhattan:
Do we think Steve Case has been in bed with Mossad this whole time? That is some truly diabolical shit right there.
HeleninEire
Warmonger. Some day soon America has to ask herself why we support Israel. To quote Kissinger, who stole it from many before him “There are no permanent friends or enemies, but only interests.”
What is America’s interest in Israel? Really. What do they give us relative to what we give them?
SFAW
@jl:
Please let us know how that works out for you.
patrick II
Cheryl Rofer
Also cover for Bibi not to go to jail during such dangerous times.
jl
@HeleninEire:
” What is America’s interest in Israel? Really. What do they give us relative to what we give them? ”
More precisely, what is America’s interest in partisan support of reactionary and dangerous (for us and Israel and ME in general) Likud policies?
Brachiator
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
I think you may be right about Trump’s cowardice, but he is a tough read. Over the coming weeks, he has to actually make good on foreign policy promises, or rationalize skulking away into a corner. Tariffs, the Iran agreement, North Korea. China trade. Trump has put himself into the spotlight.
I also mentioned here earlier that Trump may be willing to let Israel attack Iran, in order to keep his own hands clean. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens over the next couple of months.
Also, Bibi is an angry man, but he is not insane. Not so sure about Trump.
MisterForkbeard
@jl: It was after Trump started attacking Gold Star families. They put the breaks on, as they assumed Trump was about to be thrown out by the Republican Party and replaced.
They forgot that the Republican Party is basically a cult – they pretend otherwise, but have no principles and will excuse any level of behavior from their brethren. When the Russians saw that Trump retained the backing of Republicans, they started up the program again.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: Pretty much what the world leaders thought prior to WW I, “It will be a short victorious war, what could possibly go wrong?”
SFAW
@Jay S:
I don’t know whether to laugh or to be depressed as hell.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire:
We have ties with them. Enough people have intermingled that they’re closer to us then their neighbors.
Hell, if they and we didn’t have the government of idiots we have now, we’d be closer then ever.
jl
@MisterForkbeard: I thought those diabolically clever Rooskies were supposed to be real smart and had fiendish long range strategic foresight? That is why old school reactionaries kept telling us they would whup us in the Cold War unless we shaped our soceity to be more like them.
Maybe Putin just saw a reactionary racist authoritarian and fell in love himself?
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@jl:
Tell me about it. Putin selfishly put all of humanity at risk by helping Trump get elected.
Jack the Second
In the future, everyone will be Steve Jobs for 15 minutes.
The Moar You Know
@HeleninEire: Another way to divide the Middle East, and by doing so keeping that cheap oil flowing.
Major Major Major Major
@jl:
Yep. It’s obvious what our strategic interests are in Israel in the broader sense.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire:
Technology, espionage, a strategic partner in an area of the world where we’ve managed to make most of the local hate us. Israel is really good at coming up with new ways to survive in a very harsh place to live and Mossad is really really good at finding out stuff other people want to keep hidden.
TenguPhule
@Jack the Second:
Pretty sure a state of death lasts longer then 15 minutes.
nonynony
@opiejeanne: JFC when did Max Boot become a dove on Iran?
I keep feeling like I understand this Matrix I’m plugged into and then something crazy happens and I’m back to trying to figure out the rules.
MisterForkbeard
@jl: Was that in regards to thinking that Republicans were fundamentally principled, or that it was a good idea to elect Trump?
Because the Russians should absolutely have known that the R’s would back Trump no matter what. It was dumb to pretend otherwise – it’s not that Trump is “scandal proof”, it’s that Republicans won’t hold him to account because they’re degenerates. This was obvious for a long time.
As for ‘the good idea to elect Trump’: It’s a medium risk. Trump MIGHT blow up the whole goddamned world, but he might not try. And if he DOES try, his people might refuse. So that probably won’t happen. But in the meantime, Trump is fucking up everything the US has built over the past 7 decades and that’s definitely to Russia’s advantage. Trump is ALSO being individually friendly to Russia – so they’re benefiting from both general chaos and getting key concessions from Trump specifically. It was a great move on their part, provided it doesn’t end the entire Earth.
Rms
2003 was when Colin Powell told his tales of nuclear weapons to the UN.
rumpole
What’s the israeli interest in having this deal fall apart? (This is an honest question–I don’t understand it). If Iran is cheating, that’s one thing. But assuming it’s not–how does it benefit them to have Iran building bombs? And what would the consequences for the relationship between Israel and the Europeans be? Would it be better or worse?
Can someone explain the non-US politics? I genuinely don’t understand the calculus.
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
Yeah this rivals the blank sheets of paper trump stacked up proving that he was no longer involved in his businesses. He may have done it again pretending it was all the regulations he had freed us from.
Major Major Major Major
@rumpole:
Israel wants Iran to be, to steal Iran’s phrase about Israel, wiped off the map.
TenguPhule
@rumpole:
None. Netanyahu on the other hand could use a big distraction to get away from his corruption charges.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Israel isn’t that stupid. Iran makes Saudi Arabia play nice with Israel.
rikyrah
@trollhattan:
Pruitt’s old boss was….say it with me….
Carl Icahn…..
HeleninEire
@TenguPhule: What ties? What does that mean relative to American political and economic interests? How does Israel help America? And I mean that in terms of help vs. hurt. What is the upside?
Brachiator
@ruemara:
There may be US neo-cons who still have fantasies of a hot war, and Trump’s mind is unfathomable (fool? coward? warmonger?).
Netanyahu is very rational. Unfortunately, he thinks that Israel can only secure peace by dominating all the countries in the region. But even he has to understand that a nuclear war would devastate Israel. The only people who might want to see that are the craziest evangelicals who want to bring the Rapture early.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule:
Bibi might be.
But her emails!!!
It’s not, just like it’s not in our best interests, but they have assholes in power who think it benefits them so…
They think this ends with Iran’s nuclear capacity destroyed with no consequences to them. Most likely scenarios are a massive, costly war or a regional arms race.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Bibi’s and Israel’s interests do not necessarily coincide.
rikyrah
A supporter of Rep. Chris Collins helped a registered Republican run on the Green Party ticket to split the Dem vote https://t.co/Et3erzFt2K
— Justin Miller (@justinjm1) April 30, 2018
sherparick1
@Brachiator: The thing is Israel does not want to go to war with Iran. Israel (at least Bibi and Likud) wants the U.S. to go to war with Iran. Ditto Saudi Arabia and Gulf states outside of Qatar and (probably) Kuwait (both of whom know they will be on the front line of Iranian counteractions and attacks). This is one reason that I think Bolton and the superhawks will go along with a deal/retreat from Korea now. They know that two major wars, one in particular that could cause nuclear bombs to go off would require a major U.S. mobilization and reinstatement of the draft. After 17 years of low grade war and casualties, there is not much depth popularity for a war or choice. I think they believe that they can do the Iran war as a bombing campaign and blockade and at least claim that “all ream “muricans” support the mass slaughter of infidel foreigners in the Middle East. A couple weeks there is a cease fire, the oil starts flowing again, and Trump will claim he “taught Iran a lesson.” That will be the plan. As someone once said about a similar plan of aggression in 1914, “we will be partying in Paris before the leaves fall) or that plans usually fall apart upon first contact with the enemy.
Jay S
@HeleninEire: Israel gives us the key to the end times. So America can become the new Jerusalem, I hear. Or some such. It’s a kind of conversion therapy.
Cheryl Rofer
@jl: Not quite. Mossad seems to have removed a half-ton of documents and all those cds physically from Iran. That’s a big scoop. There will be details in them that we didn’t know.
But we knew the outlines of all this already. Iran lied about having a secret nuclear weapons program before 2003. They didn’t come entirely clean about it, but enough to verify that that was the case, and a little more.
There is a species of Iran hawk who wants to see Iran humiliated, their people in the dock confessing to all this. The funny (I guess) part is that now that we have all those documents, we don’t need that except for those who want revenge and retribution. History teaches us that humiliating people always produces payback.
Major Major Major Major
@HeleninEire:
Trade, dual citizens, military, intelligence, multinational corporations, medical research, other science
HeleninEire
@TenguPhule: And Jordon can’t do most of that quietly? Oh yes they can.
Gravenstone
@Major Major Major Major: A handy reinforcement about the actual age of the purported data. Someone needs to make a handy tech timeline about what media corresponded to what range of years.
Chyron HR
@rumpole:
They (Likud) actually literally want all non-Jews in the region to be exterminated so they can take over, and they want the US to do it for them.
jl
@rumpole: I think it is a good question. I think there are 4 substantive and separate issues:
1) Stopping Iran from getting nuclear weapons capability that can threaten other regional powers.
2) Stopping Iran from providing aid to various allies in Syria and other areas that impact Israeli and Saudi Arabian spheres of influence.
3) Stopping or preventing Iran from gaining power and influence generally in the region.
4) Any of the above as a tool for influence domestic Israeli politics
It’s hard to know to what extent which of these 4 is being used as an excuse and means to influence the other 3.
Netanyahu may want to use 1) as a frightening specter to keep his ass out of jail, or to use the resulting diplomatic isolation of Iran as a tool to make 2) and 3) easier.
It is a very dangerous, destructive and cynical game to play, but what does Netanyahu care? He is like the McConnell of Israel. Like a smart disciplined Truimp. Whatever helps hims out right now is the right thing to do, never mind the cost to others, or to his own country in the future.
Steeplejack
@Shana:
I’m sure I don’t know what you’re talking about.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire: Family ties, lot of people who live or used to live in Israel have family in Europe and the US, then factor in friends, business partners and suddenly you’re talking serious business.
Israel the country is a serious tech researcher in things our country doesn’t focus on, especially when it comes to agriculture and alternative energy. And their spy network is second to none. We rely on it heavily.
Major Major Major Major
@Chyron HR:
That’s uh, not an accurate description of Israel
Steeplejack
@mai naem mobile:
I think bone spurs are hereditary. Dunno about Jared.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire: Jordan isn’t even close to the same league. Israel invested in their research infrastructure as a matter of national survival.
sukabi
The most important question is did Bibi use his ‘big bomb’ graphic from his last big push for war with Iran?
Mike in NC
I like the Tom Tomorrow cartoons where they draw Trump as The Hulk. In one of them John Bolton comes over and says, “The Iranians think you have small hands”. In response Trump bellows, “TRUMP WANT SMASH IRAN!”
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
And then along came Trump…..
PaulWartenberg
So Bibi’s getting us to do his dirty work again?
This is not the work of a friend nor an allied nation.
by the way, how is the corruption probe into his sh-t going?
No One of Consequence
@Steeplejack: Get back to the Group W bench, you.
– NOoC
Steeplejack
@maya:
Yarn. Conspiracy yarn.
Shell
At least itll get them off that damn White House Correspondents Dinner.
HeleninEire
@TenguPhule: LOL like this America cares about that research. And if America relies on Israel’s spy network, well just shut America down. They are better than us at spying? Good night Gracie.
Gravenstone
@sherparick1: Yeah, the timeless refrain of “Onward Christian Soldiers’, as performed by Israeli and Saudi choirs.
HeleninEire
@Major Major Major Major: And how is that different from any EU country?
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
He said Likud, which for some reason you elided from your quote.
ETA: Although your comment was within the edit window, so maybe “Likud” was not in there when you copied.
Major Major Major Major
@HeleninEire: other than the part where there’s far more money, troops, etc. involved?
Would you advocate cutting off ties with “any EU country” because you don’t like their leadership?
ETA and this isn’t even getting into the realpolitik stuff, these are the softer connections.
@Steeplejack: it was not. Just “they”.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire: Israel has to be sharp. Its a rough neighborhood.
TenguPhule
@Shell:
FOX: Iran to blame for WHCD.
SFAW
@HeleninEire:
It’s not really a cost/benefit analysis situation.
Jeffro
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
It actually makes it easier for him to start a war…it won’t be him doing the fighting, after all.
Also folks, there is no land invasion/attack gonna happen against Iran. But endless, made-for-TV bombing, giving Americans the feeling that we’re AT war (and therefore need to unify behind Dear Leader)? Oh yeah. That, they’re more than capable of doing.
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
Noted.
HeleninEire
@SFAW: So what is it?
rp
@HeleninEire: Isn’t that the point? Why not ask if we should cut ties with Ireland, Italy, France, or Sweden?
If you’re point is simply about military aid, I agree. But our ties to Israel are much deeper than that.
SFAW
@PaulWartenberg:
Does the world assume/believe that everything/anything Shitgibbon says is how the US population feels?
Steeplejack
@No One of Consequence:
I’m sure I don’t know what you’re talking about.
TenguPhule
Stormy Daniels files new lawsuit against Donald Trump for defamation.
Via Wapo.
Trump’s public tweet accusing her of a “con-job” in regards to the parking lot threat is the target of her new lawsuit.
Need more popcorn.
TenguPhule
@SFAW: Probably more then believed that about Bush the lesser. Sadly.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: (almost?) every non American I’ve ever met has been able to make the distinction.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: But that was in Japan.
SFAW
@HeleninEire:
Among other things, it’s supporting what had been, at least until recently, pretty much the only functioning democracy in that part of the world. Also: supporting a country created to be a homeland for history’s most hated group; for some reason, the US has felt that a country — where every nation/people around them wants (or, at least, wanted) to wipe them off the face of the earth — might merit a little support.
Bibi’s one of the bigger assholes around, but, as best as I can recall, not of the same “temperament” as his predecessors.
catclub
@Corner Stone:
No, no, Israel and Saudi Arabia will send tons of troops! (two nations whose war anthems begin with onward christian soldiers)
HRA
I will just leave this here.
http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm
Aleta
@Steeplejack: not to mention the aerial photography
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
That was kinda my point.
catclub
@Gravenstone: Curse you for getting in my only good line first!
HeleninEire
@rp: I think that you and I are on the same page. I agree. Why are our ties deeper? Because of WWII?
Waynski
@HeleninEire: They buy our weapons.
HeleninEire
@SFAW: Yes. I think you are right. Maybe Israel was a fantastic, liberal, wonderful idea after WWII. I probably would have agreed with it then had I been alive. But Bibi has scewed that beyond comprehension. Bibi’s Israel has become what they hate.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire: Our ties have been developing since the British and French abandoned them in the mid 1970s. At the start it was shared strategic interests in the Middle East and to counter USSR influence. It blossomed over time as both parties developed strong trade and military ties. As more Israelis and Americans married, became friends or business partners, inevitably we’ve become closer so that emotions have also come into play. The effect is magnified compared to entities like the EU because Israel really is a small country, so the web of who knows who is much smaller.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: I know.
@TenguPhule: I’ve been to many countries! And was including the Bush years.
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire:
Keep in mind that this was a fairly sudden and rapid descent.
In 2000, the liberals were the ruling party of Israel.
Jay S
@Steeplejack: I watched the video and at least one photo had a circle and an arrow. They didn’t show the backside of the photos, They didn’t show a lot of garbage in the pictures, though. Bibi did use some slick talking to make the 4 year program a direct future threat with an ongoing component. Probably too long a presentation for Trump, but it will undoubtably be condensed to a page or two for his consumption.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: there’s also the history of the whole ethical/Zionist project, muddy as it was and has become.
sheila in nc
@Steeplejack: (giggling quietly) I do!
Had to explain to my then-middle school daughter what the draft was. Ever since, she insists on playing the track every Thanksgiving!
JustRuss
@Major Major Major Major:
Except Ahmadinejad never said that. Exhibit 4387 of Things The Media Got Wrong.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Prior to the British and French abandoning Israel for Egypt, the US wasn’t exactly a big fan of them.
rp
@HeleninEire: It’s mostly a combination of (a) culture — lots of US Jews supported the creation of Israel and still support it; (b) economics — Israel is an important trading partner and major research center; and, perhaps most importantly, (c) strategy — Israel became one of the US’s most important proxy states in the cold war and stood in opposition to Soviet proxy states like Syria and Egypt, and later Israel was and is a key ally in the war on terror.
Major Major Major Major
@JustRuss: I looked it up before I posted the comment here, and figured it was quite close enough especially given the overall point. Regardless, how about we take a different statement that’s provided at your link, “the cancerous tumor called
IsraelIran must be uprooted from the region.”SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
Apologies for not being quicker on the uptake
rp
You can argue that the US’s support of Israel has been a mistake, but it’s not as if there haven’t been (mostly) logical reasons for it.
Mart
@HeleninEire: What is America’s interest in Israel? Really. What do they give us relative to what we give them?
A surrogate air force and army to help keep the oil dredges turning…
SFAW
@Jay S:
Well, since Chief Obanhein has been gone since 1994, they obviously could not do it right.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@TenguPhule: T
When it’s safe and he has to do little work himself.
Jay
@rumpole:
The 5+1 Group “got” Iran’s “cooperation” in IAEC Inspections and Monitoring of Iran’s Nuclear Programs, ( Military, Energy, Medical and Research), and an agreement that limits Iran’s scope of research and development. This “prevents” Iran from having a weapons program.
Iran “got”:
– the release of embargo’d assets in the US dating back to the Revolution,
– continuation of nuclear power programs, medical isotope programs, research programs with some limitaions and gatekeeping.
– removal of some international trade and financial sanctions, ( but, the US Fed has used certain “loopholes” applied after the Agreement to severely limit some aspects). This gives Iran trade with China, Russia and the EU.
Iran has become Israel’s “boogyman”. Bibi’s under pressure due to corruption.
Bibi thinks that getting Treason Tribble to kill US participation in the 5+1 Agreement, will kill the deal, and will be enough of a “win” against Israel’s arch enemy, that it will keep the wolves at home abey.
The reality is, if the US pulls out, it just becomes the 4+1 Agreement, and the EU/Russia/China will have to take measures against US Treasury Sanctions through decoupling moves from the US dominated financial system.
Brachiator
@sherparick1:
Trump supporters and the GOP leadership love to kiss up to the president. However, I don’t think that even Trump could sell a ground war in Iran that committed hundreds of thousands of US troops, if the US were not directed threatened. Not even tens of thousands of US troops.
The draft ain’t the problem. There has never been a war that combined ground troops and nuclear weapons launched by both sides, and the presumption is that Iran has nukes. Russia might get involved. Or Turkey. Or even Pakistan.
This shit would get out of control real fast. Maybe Trump and his people believe that the Iranians would meekly surrender and seek a truce. These people don’t know Iran. Iran might deliberately draw Israel into a war. The idea that oil production would not be disrupted is laughable. As is any idea that a war with Iran would not come with tremendous cost to the US and to the rest of the world.
JustRuss
@Major Major Major Major: Fair enough, I get your point. I still get irked over all the pearl-clutching that happened after Ahmadinejad was misquoted.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
As Adam has pointed out, we have no troops available for a ground campaign.
Trump’s folks think this will be a sea and air show of simply bombarding Iran to rubble.
They are of course, badly wrong about this.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
No. No. No.
The presumption is that Iran has no nukes and the agreement keeps it that way.
“Iran has nukes” is the lie FOX keeps trying to peddle.
efgoldman
@joel hanes:
You know that, and I know that, and I’m sure Matttis and the generals (the professionals) know that.
Bibi, Weasel Face and Bolton don’t know and don’t care.
Maybe if Israel nukes ’em, at least it will keep our troops out for safety’s sake.
Major Major Major Major
@JustRuss: i hear you, sorry I got snippy.
TenguPhule
@efgoldman: Guarantee you that Iran would be the first attempt to conduct a war solely with the Air Force and Navy without a single army trooper on the ground. War by video game.
chopper
i guess we should scrap every agreement we’ve made with israel, since they’ve been lying about their nuclear weapons program for decades.
i mean seriously, bibi is the last fucking guy on earth who gets to complain here.
jonas
So I’m a little late to the party here, but 1. yes, we knew Iran had a nuclear program, which is why we spent so much time forging an agreement to get them to mothball it. and 2. a bunch of hyped intelligence about potential threats, need to use force to stop this now before there’s a mushroom cloud over Manhattan…yes, yes,. Where have we seen this before?
I’m hoping Mattis and the Joint Chiefs draw a real clear line for Trump and Bolton and tell them “don’t you even think about it….”
Hoodie
Seems to me that this is bibi trying to scuttle a Nork deal. His thinking may be that if trump makes a deal with little rocket man, then there’s no reason to scuttle the Iran deal out of a fear of cheating, seeing how the Norks are not any more trustworthy than the Iranians. He’s trying to manipulate Trump and distract from his own problems.
jonas
@Brachiator:
That’s an understatement. Iran’s got a serious military, plus proxies like Hezbollah in Lebanon right on Israel’s doorstep that could launch devastating reprisals. If Bibi thinks he can give Iran a black eye and the US will protect him from the blowback, he’d better think again. We may *claim* we will, but we really can’t do anything.
efgoldman
@Brachiator:
No he doesn’t. He’ll deny he ever said sch a thing.
MobiusKlein
You know who else lied about WMDs in 2003?
GEORGE W FUCKING BUSH
jonas
@TenguPhule:
Hey, we launched a few Tomahawks at Assad and that totally solved the Syria problem, amirite?
George Spiggott
@Cheryl Rofer:
“Wagging the Hush Puppies”
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
How do we know how much if any of it is real?
How do we know if it’s all just blank CDs and bullshit?
This looks like a presentation from a HS principal, in 1990.
Learn something new?
Sure anything is possible. But I wouldn’t trust anything with this guys fingerprints on it. Any more than I trust any thing that comes out of drumpf’s mouth or anyone he’s hired to work for him.
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
The pros (Mattis and the generals) know that Iran and its proxies are really, really good at asymmetrical warfare. Shit starts blowing up and crashing in the continental US, we’ll see what happens.Maybe ask the Brits who were around during the Troubles.
Cheryl Rofer
@Ruckus: Presumably Netanyahu will submit the material to the IAEA, who will check it out. If he doesn’t, well, that tells us a lot.
I’m inclined to believe they got a new* bunch of something. But it’s hard to tell from the presentation. Others are analyzing the photos in it even as we speak and will have something to say about it.
Something I missed is that apparently Netanyahu presented a series of slides representing a nuclear weapons design and its implosion. I’m seeing that analyzed on Twitter now.
It’s simple because it is aimed at an audience of one, and everyone knows he likes it simple.
ETA: *New in the sense that it’s something that wasn’t public before.
Brachiator
@TenguPhule:
I’m not sure what Trump’s people actually think. Has Adam ever written anything about war plans for an attack on Iran?
I don’t know what bombarding Iran to rubble is supposed to mean? How would Iran surrender? Is there some actual war plan that you know of that would lead to Iran being bombed and magically no military forces to supervise reconstruction or observance of any supposed treaties?
Granted, Trump’s fantasies about what a war with Iran would look like are absurd, but so are some of these speculations about how it might take place.
If there is an all-out war and Iran is fighting for its existence, we might find out what weapons they have, or have been made available to them. And it won’t be based on Trump’s bullshit or Fox News. And as I noted before, if Russia steps in and promises to protect Iran, then a lot of stuff changes immediately.
No matter how you look at it, the idea of a US initiated war with Iran is crazy. The only question is, how crazy is Trump?
Jay
@TenguPhule:
The “attempt” won’t go well. Iran has no interest in just “sitting there” and taking it, and thank’s to Chimpy McStagger’s Little Crusade, Iran’s got lot’s of friends in a lot of places that can muck up US Military fantasies of a quick, simple and cheap war.
trnc
@Chyron HR: Poppin’ that culture like there’s no tormato.
Brachiator
@efgoldman:
Fair point. And I see that Trump apologists will work to make his denials palatable.
Sloegin
Rapture-loving Pompeo confabs with Bolton and they give Bibi a call. They’re getting the band back together. Bibi’s as crooked as they come, the rapture is a modern US heresy, and Bolton can’t get soft again without bathing in blood.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
My understanding is based on what force we have available in the region.
We have no sizable amount of ground troops fit for invasion or occupation that aren’t already deployed elsewhere and who have been on repeated deployments already.
We keep at least one Naval battle group in the region, we also have our air base in Yemen.
Assuming they recycle some of the contingencies for Iraq and Afghanistan, repeated bombings, cruise missile and airstrikes against known and suspected defense sites, bases and weapons caches for several weeks would almost certainly be the opener. Trying to establish air superiority would be an ongoing battle, but my feeling is that they want this to come off as a more aggressive version of the old Iraq no-fly zone, pretty little made for TV movies of stuff on the ground blowing up with no US military casualties. These are not the brightest minds. And I include the officers advising them.
Jay
@TenguPhule:
Quatar, the US Ally in the Region Treason Twitler abandoned to the Saudi Wolves, not Yemen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002
debbie
I’ve skimmed the thread and found a couple cracks about the wall o’ CDs, but nothing about the binders. How do we know they’re not full of binders.
Bibi is full of it. This is yellowcake all over again.
TenguPhule
@Jay: You’re right, I mistyped.
Bill Arnold
Still reading the thread and etc; the first thing that comes to mind is Israel’s lack of candor (to be diplomatic) about its own nuclear program. Not sure that’s a win narrative-wise but it’s annoying enough in combination with BN’s cartoon-show-and-tell to complain about. An easy-reading The Guardian piece (2014) might be helpful – not sure about all the details. (A search will find plenty more.)
The truth about Israel’s secret nuclear arsenal
The more important point, mentioned by others, is that they had a program up until 2003, and stopped!
I agree with others, BN is not a friend of the US.
Jay
@debbie@debbie:
Yellowcake with butter cream frosting? In the shape of a dinosaur, with a scoop of vanilla icecream on the side, but not touching?
Jay S
Buckle up: Whitehouse is using this crap as confirmation of ongoing nuclear weapons program. https://twitter.com/CherylRofer/status/991089486850211840
J R in WV
@HeleninEire:
What ties? There are a lot of Americans who are Jewish, were refugees from genocide, who have relatives, their children, brothers or sisters in Israel. Lots of fundy RWNJs believe Israel is their homeland.
What does that mean relative to American political and economic interests? Israel is a democracy in a sea of autocracy, and an aircraft carrier for American interests in the Middle East, where even our allies can be suddenly constrained to turn against us when surrounded by Saudi Arabia, like Qatar being attacked by all its neighbors recently. Qatar is home to a huge and valuable military base for US forces of all flavors.
How does Israel help America? By having great intelligence penetration into Middle East powers that may sometimes be our allies, or not. By allowing American assets to land in their territory to offload arms and ammunition. By bombing our intelligence-gathering ships into bits in the Med, ie the Liberty, in which many sailors were killed of wounded, by accident that lasted a very long time.
What is the upside? Well, I give up. I don’t know. I have Jewish relatives, technically. Their mom was Jewish, which makes them Jewish, although they were raised Unitarian. The Jewish people I have known were wonderful people individually and collectively. But Israel has treated their neighbors and the Palestinians with disdain and a lack of respect that is breath-taking in its lack of a sense of historical irony. I once had a great deal of respect for Israel, and their forceful development of their self-defense forces, their ability to counter-attack Arabic armies attacking their tiny nation.
But now they’re more like the bully of their neighborhood. Bibi is both crooked and terribly prejudiced against everyone not an Israeli. And he gets re-elected over and over. The ultra-orthodox seem to rule the nation, while not taking any responsibility to work hard to make the nation a financial success. It’s quite a strange paradox.
I’m stumped. I don’t have any idea how to resolve the middle-eastern conflicts. None of them. Shiite versus Sunni, Arab versus Israeli, Royals versus Democratic nations… well scratch that, I don’t think any of the nations are really democratic. It’s a spiderweb of conflicting national histories. Really, when I’m successfully neutral, I think we should just leave them all alone to settle their problems on their own. But then I think of the suffering, the kids with no medical care, without enough to eat… there I go again!
Frankensteinbeck
My thoughts:
1) Bibi is a genocidal monster. He wants every non-Jew in the Middle East exterminated, and sincerely believes that Iran is an existential threat to Israel. He is also a complete asshole and at least a little corrupt, and ‘wag the dog’ with his domestic problems may be involved.
2) This might help push Trump towards abandoning the deal with Iran. Trump is hard to predict on these things.
3) No, the US will not attack Iran. Trump is too big a coward. He has attacked no one despite all of his threats during his presidency. All the aggressive stuff in North Korea turned out to be lies. Of the two attacks in Syria, one turned out to be a con job and the other was France’s idea. It doesn’t matter that Trump sits back in perfect safety if he orders these wars. He is not a regular coward, he is a coward of legendary status, the kind of man who cannot fire people who are utterly in his power if he might possibly have to look them in the face again. His pattern is clear – bluster all he wants, he will not attack anyone.
4) The media will probably love this, but I can’t be sure. It won’t change anything on FOX. They have already been telling their audience Iran has an active nuclear weapons program. It’s a fantasy world over there. They might pick this up, but the knob has been on 10 and doesn’t go higher. However, even if the media does try to jump on it, Trump is too good at making new mistakes that will push it off the headlines very soon.
Jay S
@Jay S: re item 2 @Frankensteinbeck: See the tweet in the link in my comment above, the White House just stated it has grounds for ending the agreement.
Bill Arnold
Another point, if it hasn’t been made yet; BN has just demonstrated why it is so risky for Iran to cheat on the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action; Iran is demonstrably leaky and easy to spy on. This too was part of the calculations for the JCPA, I’m certain.
Frankensteinbeck
@Jay S:
Sure, but statements from the White House are related to actual administration policy only randomly.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Talk about understatement.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Not hard.
Is it a stupid, assholeish thing to do? Trump will do it.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Syria, Niger.
The generals are self-serving, but they’ve been consistent that he’s asked for attack plans against Iran and North Korea. Remember, the fucker was boasting about moving subs closer to NK.
The distance between command and people actually doing the attack works for his cowardice, not against it.
Bill Arnold
@nonynony:
Maybe he read it. (The JCPA. It’s rather tight agreement. Not an easy read, but pontificating about it without reading it is poor form.)
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
I see you are not familiar with all Internet Traditions!
J R in WV
Current gasoline prices in Europe run from $4.50/gal to $7.55/gal this week. So double prices here in the US, or more.
If the Straits of Hormuz into the Persian Gulf were closed, how fast would crude price go up, and how high?
How quickly would retail prices follow? I kid, retail prices would go up faster than wholesale in the real world. We would see $10/gallon costs for gas in a couple of weeks, even if no US refineries were closed after their tank farms explode, like in Duluth last week.
Maybe higher than that.
Those high efficiency little cars Ford doesn’t want to make any more, they would be worth a fortune! The mere thought makes me want to go on-line to find a legal TDI that gets 45 mpg.
CDWard
Israel:
– is an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist Jewish State;
– has been stealing, occupying and colonizing Palestinian land and
oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians for over 60 years;
– refuses to honor its obligations under international law;
– refuses to accept responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going war crimes; and
– refuses to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
See http://www.ifamericansknew.org and http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html for more information.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
I sure hope so, I bought one 2 yrs ago and am thinking it will be my last car, especially if things go the way they are looking health wise. Would be nice to drive it for a few more years and have it worth 50-75% of what I paid for it. I think I won’t hold my breath.
Bill Arnold
@CDWard:
You were doing OK until the words “Jewish State”.
FWIW I mostly agree, quibble with some bits. But Israel is not a Halachic state. And yes, aware of the well-honed arguments going back for many decades; not worth it; best IMO to restrict focus to behavior.