There’s some controversy about whether Giuliani’s clusterfuck interview with Hannity last night was the deliberate launch of a new legal strategy for handling the Stormy Daniels thing or a misstep by a demented dipshit who got his client into an even bigger mess. Josh Marshall reckons it was the latter:
What you have are a half dozen brainstorms cooked up by a group of old men in a room used to bending reality to their purposes when something goes wrong. That’s much more difficult on a national stage in front of intense scrutiny. That’s what happened last night. Rudy Giuliani is far, far past his prime, used to the accommodating hothouse world of Fox News cronies and cash and carry deal-making in his law firm gigs. This was as sloppy as it looked and did his client no favors.
On purpose or not — it really is hard to tell, but that is always the case with the Trump shit-storm. I think Marshall is 100% correct about the Fox News hothouse. Here’s a clip that illustrates the confines of that noxious bubble:
Giuliani: "Jared is a fine man … but men are disposable"
?? pic.twitter.com/MaSA4N84pV— Nicole Lafond (@Nicole_Lafond) May 3, 2018
Partial transcript for those who can’t/won’t watch:
HANNITY (in a reverent, hushed, bewildered and horrified tone): “There’s a Politico report today basically suggesting that now Mueller would consider Ivanka Trump…a…a…a target.”
[Indignant digression about Hope Hicks, another woman in Trump’s orbit who gives the grotesque pair chivalry-boners.]GIULIANI (incredulously): Ivanka Trump?!?!? I would, I would, I think I would get on my charger and go right into their offices with a lance if they went after Ivanka.”
HANNITY: I, uh, at this point, sir, I honestly agree with you, and I fear for the country.”
GIULIANI: “Now, I think if they DO do Ivanka, which I doubt they will, the whole country will turn on them. They’re going after his daughter?”
HANNITY: What about his son-in-law? They’ve talked about him!”
GIULIANI: “I guess, uh, Jared is a fine man. You know that. But men are, you know, disposable.” [laughs] “But a fine woman like Ivanka? Come on!”
Set aside for a moment the creepy and sexist spectacle of these two infantilizing a 30-something woman who is (preposterously!) sold as a self-made business mogul and a person who merits a White House advisory role. Giuliani and Hannity’s musings about Ivanka demonstrate what I hope is a fatal flaw in the Trump administration’s political strategy for surviving a cascade of scandals.
The approach seems predicated on the mistaken belief that the view from Fox News holds sway across the land. Would millions rise up to follow Giuliani’s lead — mounting steeds, seizing lances and charging into Mueller’s office to defend Ivanka Trump’s honor? Outside of a relative few loud-mouthed Fox rage-bots, my guess is nope.
But it’s not surprising that these morons think this way — it comes straight from the top. To the extent that he governs at all, Trump governs as if the only Americans who exist are the goobers who support him.
That fantasy may survive visits to his self-branded clubs; it may stay intact while Trump tosses chunks of red meat at carefully screened audiences at rallies, and it may seem realistic while he’s viewing highly curated Fox News content. But I don’t think it’s gonna fly when people outside the Fox News bubble get a say this November.
Speaking for myself, it would make my fucking day to see Ivanka Trump lead a perp-walk conga line — to see all of these arrogant, corrupt, know-nothing motherfuckers swept out of power. I’m not so deluded as to imagine everyone in America agrees, but I’m damn sure not alone. And my friends and I vote.
germy
They can’t even manage to look good on their propaganda network. Shannity lobs him softball after softball, and he digs himself deeper.
JR
Rudy can grab his lance. Pikes for the rest of us.
oatler.
I’ll beleve Rudy when I see his body being uncovered by sanitation workers and the piano part from Layla is playing.
Roger Moore
Just remember to bring Sancho Panza to pick you up again when those
windmillsgiants hit back.nonynony
@germy:
Doesn’t matter. The audience for it is Trump’s hardcore supporters and they think he looks good no matter what he does.
low-tech cyclist
“Remember, you’re fighting for this woman’s honor, which is probably more than she ever did.” – Groucho, in Duck Soup
lamh36
MattF
I guess Trump’s goal is to make the White House staff look as much as possible like Fox. He could then just look around instead of using up ‘executive time’ to get his Fox fix. That’s why I keep predicting that, eventually, Hannity will join the party at the White House, since he’s such a familiar face. It would make sense from that point of view, but we shall see– ‘making sense’ can be hard to parse in a crazy house.
Catherine D.
Perp-walk conga line for the win!
Ruckus
@JR:
Like the rest of the powers that shouldn’t be let out of a padded cell rudi thinks his Lance is in his pants.
Ian G.
The best thing for Ivanka Trump would be for her to end up indicted. Because history has any number of examples of women like her (Marie Antoinette, Elena Ceausescu, Clara Petacci) who didn’t get off that easily.
LAO
@lamh36:
This guy doesn’t miss a beat:
trollhattan
“DO do Ivanka” is my favorite Police song.
Yutsano
Doesn’t the Three Percent crowd believe they can foment a revolution based on a small number?
@Ian G.: To be fair, Marie Antoinette was technically indicted. She didn’t really get anything resembling a trial however.
Roger Moore
@nonynony:
That’s the intended audience, but that doesn’t mean they’re the only ones paying attention. It seems to me that one of Trump’s ongoing mistakes is believing the only people listening are the ones he wants to be listening. He’s used to being able to sell a different line of flimflam to each mark and never expects them to get together to compare notes. That might have worked when he was working rooms without cameras, but it’s less effective when the whole world is watching his every move.
MattF
@Roger Moore: Also, the classic con artist leaves town when things get heated. Trump can’t do that.
Rand Careaga
Kushner: “Did anybody get the number of that bus?”
trollhattan
@Yutsano:
Absolutely, if only they could finally find Galt’s Gulch. “To the maps again, boys!”
LAO
Now I’m laughing so hard, I’m crying:
trollhattan
Heh.
zhena gogolia
@oatler.:
You guys inspired me to try to get the sheet music for that, but it just isn’t available.
tobie
IANAL so I leave it to others to debate whether Giuliani’s performance can be construed in any way as a winning strategy. But I do take pleasure in the fact that Trump’s credibility is shot and should he ever provide any testimony in court even the most inexperienced lawyer should have no problem showing Trump’s record of playing fast and loose with the truth.
John Carter
Hmm? Maybe the Kochs, Mercers, Adlesons, et.al. finally realized their mistake in Trump and are now quietly trying to change the guard (and I’m sure they have the where-with-all)? They may eventually point out, through these handpicked, soon to be pardoned quislings, that Trump is, indeed, unqualified, has made disastrous decisions and should be replaced. And with that “Pence”-ive replacement, the American people will be sooo glad to be rid of the overt corruption, they’ll be overjoyed at having (their – the Kochs, Mercers, Adlesons, et.al) someone else run the government.
Or was this the idea all along? Because how could any group of people be this stupid?
Frankensteinbeck
Mueller is sure to be utterly defeated by that legal strategy. What’s worse, Rudy may actually think that is a legal strategy.
This does reflect an entire conservative mindset. Trump is the king of chickenshits because he has a kingdom of chickenshits behind him. They will proudly thump their chests about how they’re ready to violently put down their enemies, but they haven’t the guts to face even the slightest resistance.
chopper
@lamh36:
explains why the WH is even more in shambles than usual.
zhena gogolia
@trollhattan:
Somebody go back and get a s–tload of dimes!
JPL
If Trump told Cohen he would be pardoned if he didn’t incriminate him, would that be a crime?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/feds-tapped-trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-s-phones-n871011
Roger Moore
@MattF:
Sure he can. I’m sure his friend Vlad would be happy to provide him with a retirement dacha and protection against extradition if the pressure gets too hot.
chopper
@LAO:
if someone in the WH pushed him to destroy evidence and federal investigators have it on tape, hoo boy.
MattF
@trollhattan:
JPL
@LAO: Somehow, I thought that would make your day…..
germy
@Roger Moore: GG moved to Brazil. His buddy moved to Russia. His other buddy is still in that embassy.
Cacti
It was summed up thusly a generation ago, in All The President’s Men:
“The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.”
Roger Moore
@JPL:
IANAL, but it sure sounds like witness tampering and obstruction of justice to me.
LAO
@chopper: It would be game over.
@JPL: You have come to know me so well.
JPL
@chopper: Maybe that is why they did an early morning search.
TenguPhule
I see a bad case of suicide in Jared’s future.
Better check his duffel bags carefully.
sukabi
@JR: he could, if he could find it. Mr. 9/11 has been as coherent sounding as Drumpf for the last several years.
trollhattan
@John Carter:
Trump delivered their precious tax cuts, Supreme Court justice and other judges, federal land giveaways and spiking of environmental laws. If that isn’t a good ROI I can’t deduce how they could have done better.
Absolutely they’ll bail from the plunging Air Trump but they’re going to stay aboard so long as there’s an opportunity to wring out a few more goodies.
zhena gogolia
@Roger Moore:
And they have the most beautiful hookers, so it’s all good.
TenguPhule
@Yutsano:
To be fair, they’re counting on a larger number to do nothing and accept the corruption.
chopper
@LAO:
i’d be willing to bet good money that any such suggestion came with a promise of a pardon for any charges that come about.
El Caganer
Dunno about the charger and lance, but there are probably a few folks in my development who would saddle up the Hoveround, grasp a ‘Fuck Your Feelings’ sign, don their MAGA caps, and sally forth. Of course, there’s an all-you-can-eat buffet right across the street, so I doubt they’d get much further.
Frankensteinbeck
@JPL:
Good luck with that promise. Trump is happy enough to sign symbolic pardons, but not only is he not loyal, he eagerly throws people to the wolves.
The Moar You Know
I think Marshall is wrong. I think this is deliberate, a version of Nixon’s “limited hang out” strategy that didn’t work.
ETA: also wondering if Jared can give me a report on the steering tie rods of that bus he’s about to be thrown under. It would help the fleet maintenance guys a lot.
Cacti
@germy:
Is Chelsea Manning still his buddy, or did getting left to rot in prison sour things between them?
LAO
@chopper: God, I hope that there was a wiretap and that all of our speculation is true,
JPL
@Roger Moore: It would appear to be so. If memory serves me, Trump called Cohen after the search.
John Carter
trolhattan,
Probably true. But then again, some of us are happy enough just to pay off our mortgages,cars have enough for retirement to eat and live.
But that may not pertain to all.
And I’m sure there are loads of other perks those ilk have in mind down the road!
MattF
@TenguPhule: And never stay in hotel room above the first floor.
Cacti
@sukabi:
I’ve also thought for a while that noun/verb/9/11’s brain is no longer in mint condition.
Particularly since that time he said with total credulity that there were no terrorist attacks on US soil during the Bush years.
rikyrah
Me too
waspuppet
They really just want to act like they’re in a Michael Bay movie. You can hear the background music in their heads.
Quaker in a Basement
Sometimes I wish I could live to be, like, 180 years old so I could see how historians in the future explain this shit
catclub
@Frankensteinbeck: I still want someone to ask if Ivanka is his client.
Cacti
I think Rudy also tipped his hand that they want to set up Kushner as the fall guy.
Blame the Jew would be about par for the course for this outfit.
trollhattan
@John Carter:
We’re not really able to comprehend their gilded world. If the brothers Koch decided today to spend all their money before the ends of their lives it would probably be impossible–latest Forbes list had Charles’ and David’s combined worth actually greater than #1 on the list. Because they were born rich they literally have no concept of worrying about their next meal, a roof over their heads, shoes on their feet, medical care for their children, a university education, whether they can finally buy a Gulfstream….
“Want more, want more”
B. Marley
Gex
@Frankensteinbeck: It’s just too bad that in the process, they are inspiring too many of their followers to actually violently put down their enemies.
Tenar Arha
@Cacti: Yuup.
It’s an old pernicious rescue fantasy & these old white christian men are leaning hard on “the poor misled gentile woman who married a Jewish man who craftily lured her in with his wiley nature“ horse apples.
Lottirose
I only ask to live long enough to see Trump and his band of merry miscreants brought low. Most days have seemed like months and months like years since our country fell into this alternate reality called the Trump presidency. The line that would satisfy me is “All are punished.”
low-tech cyclist
@Cacti:
And the Haldeman-Ehrlichman crew were at least bright enough to give a public impression of competence, until it all fell apart, that is. This crowd’s been a clown show since Day 1.
Might as well link to my favorite Doonesbury Watergate strip, which feels more relevant than ever.
sukabi
@Roger Moore: that or a nice bath in a 5th floor apartment with a nice cup of tea and a souvenir umbrella.
Yutsano
@low-tech cyclist: Link no work. Plz to fix.
The Other Chuck
@JPL: You had better believe that is obstruction of justice. Nowhere in the constitution does it say that the pardon power of POTUS immunizes the one actually issuing the pardon. Of course Pence will pardon 45 (fucking count on it, no they will not have the guts to impeach both) but it still conveys zero immunity against other charges that will almost certainly be brought after Pence leaves office. Pre-emptive pardons aren’t a thing, though I think it’d be funny if someone convinced the mensas in the oval office that they are.
jharp
Didn’t Giuliani have knowledge of the plan to release stolen Democrat e mails being released before anyone else knew?
sukabi
@Quaker in a Basement: Ronny Jackson may be able to help you with that wish.
sukabi
@jharp: why yes, yes he did.
Death Panel Truck
New lawyer hired.
Digs Trump’s grave even deeper.
So much for the best.
germy
@Death Panel Truck:
Each day brings more news.
Worst thing that ever happened
to Trump was winning.
WaterGirl
@LAO: I keep wondering why they didn’t also get a search warrant for his car.
No Drought No More
So that’s the remark that Jill Wine-Banks said had steam coming out her ears when she heard it.
No doubt Guiliani would tell the little lady not to look a gift horse in the mouth. No doubt that millions of American women who voted for Trump would agree with him if he did. No doubt, either, there’s not a damn thing that Wine-Banks or anyone else can do about such pig ignorant people but abide them as such. And no doubt she already knows that…
cusorial
@trollhattan: Surprisingly, Galt’s Gulch turns out to be an industrial park in New Jersey. Just got a package shipped from a warehouse there. Not the spot I would have picked, if I had the maximum liberty possible, but to each their own.
alhutch
@Yutsano:
http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1973/06/13
catclub
@jharp: No. Giuliani had a line on the NY FBI office and knew they were going to leak the re-opening based on Weiner’s laptop emails.
It was Roger Stone that may have had advance info on stolen DNC emails.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
They both like to pal around with white supremacists, so there’s still that bond between them.
monobrand
@germy: Well done.
TriassicSands
(It’s probably a dead thread, but what the heck…)
You’re a “fine woman,” Betty, far finer than Ivanka, but I suspect you underestimate the number of steed-riding crazies that love Trump.
SRW1
Even men in drag, Rudy?
laura
I heard that magnificent crescendo in my head reading these comments. So thanks Oatler!
https://youtu.be/8dLcAmS0k5U
ohthatguy
Calling dibs on Giuliani as Don Quixote as a halloween costume. Assuming that memories of this are not washed away by the next 6 months of insanity
w3ski
No, “You are damn sure Not alone”. We are in Ca., and my lady and I are in total agreement with you.
w3ski
Max
@Roger Moore: Trump isn’t the dacha in the woods type.