Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

This really is a full service blog.

After roe, women are no longer free.

“Squeaker” McCarthy

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Not all heroes wear capes.

The republican caucus is already covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

I was promised a recession.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Agonize - Organize / Thursday Morning Open Thread: Mistaking Tolerance for Weakness

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Mistaking Tolerance for Weakness

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There’s a joke going back at least as far as Anthony Trollope about liberals “so determined to be tolerant they won’t defend even their own arguments.” Once-and-hopefully-Future Speaker Pelosi is *not* of that genre…

And she’s not alone, as some more-progressive-than-thou primary candidates just found out…

Reader Interactions

149Comments

  2. 2.

    Baud

    Dem voters want serious candidates bc these are serious times

    Not good news for Baud! 2020!

  4. 4.

    bystander

    Bonjour, les copains! First cloudy – almost chilly – day in Paris in almost two weeks.

    Started the day off reading the article about the black female Yalie who fell asleep in the common area of her dorm, only to be awakened by New Haven cops demanding to see her ID. I was happy to find out that if only she had just shown her ID, none of this would have happened. Also, they are there for security. How would the student who called the cops or the cops have known if she wasn’t resting up before a shooting spree? Or she was exhausted after looting New Haven?

    In the trump era, we are all entitled to let the racism fly. Comments, actions, that at one time would be kept to oneself are now freely and proudly shared.

  6. 6.

    Bruce K

    The question going through my mind right now is: was Pence smart enough to keep clear of the mud? Because I seem to recall many of his colleagues in government at various levels didn’t think highly of his intellect.

    If we get the Blue Wave this November, if there’s a solid case of bribery (Article 2, Section 4, guys), if Pence was stupid enough to be involved with that or the Article-3-Section-3 stuff … hell, there’s an outside chance that the 2016 election may result in the country’s first woman President after all.

  8. 8.

    Shalimar

    Listening to excerpts from Trump’s statement at Andrews. He is extremely diplomatic and complementary of the released hostages, saying over and over what great people they are and how happy they are to be in America (note that he does not say “again”; they might as well be newcomers here for the first time). He basically treated them like emissaries from an allied government.

    What the racist demagogue notably didn’t do in the parts MSNBC is replaying is refer to these non-white guys as Americans. It’s like in his mind no matter how much he has to compliment them, they still don’t deserve to be here.

  10. 10.

    Shalimar

    @Bruce K: I wonder if any of the current backlash against Pelosi becoming Speaker again is to make sure that remote chance doesn’t happen.

  13. 13.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    Kucinich wasn’t a progressive.

    He voted against Dodd-Frank

    He voted against Cap and Trade

    He was against ACA until a revolt occurred in his district.

    He voted against stem cell research

    He spent most of his career opposing women’s reproductive rights.

  14. 14.

    Nicole

    Awoken at 4:15AM by my sister-in-law, because my stepmom, traveling with her, can’t remember the passcode to her phone. I said she’d have to contact my stepbrother, as he’s the one who set up Mom’s phone. I also suggested if it’s not an emergency, she might want to wait a few hours. Since it was 4:15 AM.

    And somehow, I managed to say all that without resorting to profanity, which is what I desperately wanted to do.

  18. 18.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Shalimar:

    I refuse to get excited over Christian missionaries who were knowingly spreading their Christian bullshit in a place where they weren’t supposed to be doing it getting released. I have as much affection for them doing that as I do about Otto Warmbier going into a “no go” zone to steal a propaganda poster.

    Go to a foreign place, follow their rules. If they don’t want you spreading your contradictory bullshit about cheap mercy and an instant excuse for hypocrisy for powerful white dudes all in the name of a deity who never sacrificed jack shit for anybody, then you take the consequences if you claim to want to join the mythical martyrs.

  22. 22.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Nicole: If I get a phone call at that time I always answer with something along the lines of “Somebody better be dying and my blood and only my blood can save them or the motherfucker on the other end of this line is going to need more than a transfusion when I’m done with them.”

    For some reason or other all I ever hear is “click”. Not sure why.

  24. 24.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Nicole:

    There’s no getting back to sleep on that call. Your adrenaline is on high because 4:15 am, PLUS, you’re pissed off.

  25. 25.

    SFAW

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    If I get a phone call at that time I always answer with something along the lines of “Somebody better be dying and my blood and only my blood can save them or the motherfucker on the other end of this line is going to need more than a transfusion when I’m done with them.”

    Asshole. I was going to offer my services to Nicole to respond (in her stead) in just such a manner. (Although your phrasing is somewhat more betterer than mine would be.) Now you’ve given it away for free. Now I gotta rip up my business plan.

    Also: reading your prose, I was reminded of a bit by Cedric the Entertainer — “I wish a motherfucker would!”

  28. 28.

    Baud

    @satby:

    Meh. I’m not fond of it either, but I don’t think it should be criminal, here or anywhere else.

  29. 29.

    Patricia Kayden

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Wow. Didn’t know all that about Kuc. Never cared for him because he always struck me as a weird dude who’s not very serious. Glad he lost. Perhaps he can go back to being a commenter on a Conservative news channel.

  30. 30.

    The Simp in the Suit

    The talking heads on my talking picture box are telling me that Iran attacked Israel, shooting a couple of missiles at them. Israel then fired back. Any reason to believe this was the sequence?

  32. 32.

    Kay

    The Trump administration signaled Wednesday that it intends to pull back on investigating potential abuses by companies in the $1.5 trillion student loan market.
    The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau will shutter its student lending office, according to a bureau-wide memo written by its acting director, Mick Mulvaney. The student loan office at the CFPB had been responsible for returning $750 million in relief.

    Its responsibilities are being moved under the broad umbrella of “financial education.”

    This isn’t the first time Mulvaney has reshuffled the bureau to change the CFPB’s priorities. He took similar action with the bureau’s Office of Fair Lending earlier this year, moving the entire department under the bureau’s education department. That office had been focused on discrimination issues, particularly in the auto lending industry.

    This is mainstream dogma on the Right now- that all consumer financial transactions can be regulated solely by more “consumer education” – putting the entire burden on individuals to 1. figure out that they’re getting robbed and 2. do something about it, as individuals. No one is clear what they’re supposed to do about it, however, because this theory includes no mechanism or process to get their money back or punish anyone who took it.

    The idea is consumers are morons who deserve to be robbed and cheated if they’re dumb enough to borrow from these companies and they should be punished by getting ripped of. That’ll learn ’em.

    It’s particularly brutal in terms of student loans because the people who get hurt the most are first generation college students- poor people who are trying not to be poor- because they don’t have family or friends who are familiar with borrowing tens of thousands of dollars so rely completely on the lender. They’re also often 18 years old and it’s impossible to discharge a student loan. You can’t get rid of it in bankruptcy and it’s not like a house or a car- you can’t return the car or abandon the house and get out from under a student loan. You’re stuck with it for life.

    It’s just gross. The level of greed involved in these mid-career wealthy people in the Trump Administration robbing low income 18 year olds is just repulsive. What next? Knocking 12 year olds over and taking their lunch money?

  33. 33.

    Amir Khalid

    Dr Mahathir arrived late this afternoon at Istana Negara, the National Palace where resides His Majesty the Agung, to be sworn in as PM. (The outgoing sore loser Najib Tun Razak had claimed that Dr M couldn’t be sworn in because no single party or coalition had a majority; Pakatan Harapan wasn’t formally recognised as a coalition by the Election Commission, for technical reasons, and therefore did not count as a single entity for tallying seat totals in Parliament. Legal experts, including a retired Federal Court judge, have called bullshit on Najib’s argument.)

  36. 36.

    debbie

    I can’t stop laughing:

    The Daily Beast can confirm that Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen received hundreds of thousands of dollars from a company connected to Russian oligarch Viktor Vekselberg.

    The allegations were initially made Tuesday by Michael Avenatti, porn actress Stormy Daniels’ lawyer, and confirmed by a source familiar with the matter.

    “How the fuck did Avenatti find out?” the source asked The Daily Beast.

    He’s all up in their heads now.

  38. 38.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @debbie: Oh screw that. Call me at 3:15 in the AM, waking me up when I already have enough trouble sleeping, raising my blood pressure and pissing me off? Damn right somebody is gonna hear about it.

  41. 41.

    Matt

    And she’s not alone, as some more-progressive-than-thou primary candidates just found out…

    I see the “vote for us because FUCK YOU” campaign among the Democratic Party is still going strong.

  42. 42.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @debbie: But they are all working 3 part time jobs putting in 12 hrs a day working and commuting and don’t have enough time to eat lunch much less vote.

  43. 43.

    Kay

    The King of Spin
    How Dennis Kucinich remade himself from race-baiting bomb-thrower to liberal sweetheart.

    This is a great “political” piece to me because it explains something that is true, but has been forgotten. There was a whole genre of urban “ethnic” politicians like this in Ohio (and I imagine all over the country). They relied on a kind of tribal support that had to do the make-up of cities at that time- the lower classes were white European immigrants. They pandered to those specific groups and it was zero sum. If “Irish” or “black” were getting something that meant that other groups were being ignored- Kucinich referred to them as “the forgotten people” – just like Trump:

    At the time, the neighborhood was a fiercely Catholic area, where Polish and Hungarian were spoken as often as English. These were the days when Cleveland wasn’t merely divided by race, but by myriad ethnic rivalries. White people weren’t simply “white,” but Italian, Romanian, or Greek. And the people of Tremont believed they were getting the shortest end of the stick, ignored at the behest of Irish and black.

    The “establishment” Kucinich was ranting about here at that time were AA city leaders, who were “taking” power from his people. That this was all forgotten and he was able to reinvent himself as some kind of uber progressive when really he was an old-school ethnic pol who wasn’t averse to playing one group of Democrats against the other is really disturbing. The author of the piece talks about how national media adopted this myth about Kucinich (because they didn’t know shit about what actually happened in Cleveland) and how that worked for him locally, inside Ohio.

    Kucinich had to reinvent himself because his base assimilated and moved to the suburbs and often were no longer Democrats. They disappeared.

    An example of an “ethnic” Democratic pol who DIDN’T do this shape-changing, and prospered, is Marcy Kaptur. She managed to expand her base from urban working class white Catholics without pretending to be a completely different person. She came from exactly the same tradition as Kucinich but she took the high road and (ironically) actually beat Kucinich in a Dem primary that was conducted partly among voters from HIS home city- Cleveland. So it can be done.

  45. 45.

    Kay

    @debbie:

    Or, impoverished graduates will conclude (rightly) that the game is rigged and they shouldn’t bother trying. That’s what scares me more than anything- that people will give up- because it’s not irrational to give up when we;ve set this up so it is fucking impossible to get ahead. It didn’t use to be this hard. I went to undergraduate basically free. I think I spent 1500 dollars of my own money.

  46. 46.

    jonas

    @Shalimar: Trump’s milking this for all it’s worth — the released detainees were Christians caught evangelizing, which is of course illegal in DPRK. So this is getting a lot of play with the CBN crowd and Trump’s people are making sure he burnishes his image as the Great White Hope of Oppressed Evangelicals Everywhere.

  47. 47.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Sharks love jazz but are stumped by classical, say scientists

    In a paper published in Animal Cognition, the researchers, led by Catarina Vila Pouca, trained juvenile Port Jackson sharks to swim over to where jazz was playing, to receive food. It has been thought that sharks have learned to associate the sound of a boat engine with food, because food is often thrown from tourist boats to attract sharks to cage-diving expeditions – the study shows that they can learn these associations quickly.

    The test was made more complex with the addition of classical music – this confused the sharks, who couldn’t differentiate between jazz and classical. “It was obvious that the sharks knew that they had to do something when the classical music was played, but they couldn’t figure out that they had to go to a different location,” said researcher Culum Brown. “The task is harder than it sounds, because the sharks had to learn that different locations were associated with a particular genre of music, which was then paired with a food reward. Perhaps with more training, they would have figured it out.”

    Hmmm…. If I listen to classical music do you think trump and his cronies will stat away?

  48. 48.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

    I turn off my ringer. Problem solved.

    Relative of mine did that – I was the No 2 person on the “who to call list”. Guess who got the 3am call.

  49. 49.

    germy

    Don't know if this is relevant or not, but the VP of Korean Aerospace, who paid Cohen $150,000, was found dead amid corruption scandal last September, around the same time Mueller was investigating these payments. https://t.co/tKhdUZGfND— Facts Do Matter (@WilDonnelly) May 9, 2018

  50. 50.

    raven

    @Baud: iPhone allows you to select who you set your phone specific times not take calls and make exceptions for those you might want to give access.

  51. 51.

    Baud

    @Matt: FWIW, Anne Laurie is great, but she’s not the Democratic Party. If you’re looking for an excuse to run away from the fight against fascism, look elsewhere.

  53. 53.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I’m so sorry I couldn’t save you, Laquan.

    During the chaos, while I was holding you, someone moved my dress, saying “watch the blood”—and now I wish I had been drenched in it. I wish the dishevelment on my body matched the parts of my brain that were ripping themselves open. I wish I knew what you were thinking, Laquan. I wish I could feel what you were feeling. But all I could do was hold you.

    I hope you know you weren’t alone. I hope you know I’m sorry.

    Really tough read. Everyone should.

  54. 54.

    Baud

    @germy: Rachel covered that last night. I don’t think the death has anything to do with Trump or Cohen.

  55. 55.

    jonas

    Next to Pruitt, Mulvaney has to be the most fucking corrupt toady that Trump stuck in there to dismantle good government. He’s straight-up admitted that he’s at the beck-and-call of whatever lobbyists pay to play. Trump’s overweening stupidity on the world stage is bad enough — it’s people like Mulvaney who are really doing the damage, though. And they know it and brag about it.

  58. 58.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Kay: What’s next? Stealing health insurance from poor children. There is no bottom for these people.

  60. 60.

    Chyron HR

    @Matt:

    On November 8, 2016, you decided that you would rather have nazi plutocrats destroy the country than vote for a Democrat.

    The inescapable conclusion is that there is NO set of circumstances under which you would vote for a Democrat.

    Therefore the idea that the Democratic party should be “nice” to you and Your Revolution is laughable. At best.

  61. 61.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @debbie: Absentee? It costs well over a dollar in postage to mail in an absentee ballot in my county. Who has that kind of postage hanging around? So yet another barrier against voting for cash- and time-strapped youngs (and others).

  65. 65.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: I first encountered ethnic divisions among urban whites when I moved to Boston for a few years after college. It seems to be a Northern phenomenon. I was really surprised by it.

  67. 67.

    Betty Cracker

    @lamh36: Awwwww! What a sweet baby! Most babies look kinda squashy when they’re brand new, but he looks like an angel!

  69. 69.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    It’s really interesting in Toledo (now) because the “ethnics” who remained Democrats had to adjust- they had to adopt a “big tent” approach or they would be extinct as political players. There simply aren’t enough of them to run the show.

    But- it wasn’t real progressive back in the day and Kucinich exploited that. I don’t think we should romanticize the urban white working class, who are different than rural white working class but had their own narrowness and tribalism. They progressed, but kicking and screaming all the way. Kaptur has been able to do something really interesting with religion- she is Catholic and that is part of her “brand” – but she’s been able to take that in a nice direction, where she spends a lot of time defending the rights of Toledo-area Muslims. IMO that’s how religion should be integrated into politics- as a reality for tons of people but one that can be tolerant and inclusive. Part of it she’s just really fucking smart so that doesn’t hurt :)

  71. 71.

    Kay

    I have to decide today (self imposed deadline) of I will volunteer for county lead for Cordray. It’s really manageable- there are only 8k Democratic voters in this county AND I will get the job because no one else wants it! :)

    I don’t know if I can bear losing again. It makes me unhappy and I like to be happy :)

  73. 73.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @debbie:

    “I’d like to think that the last thing that went through his head, other than that bullet, was to wonder how the hell Andy Dufresne ever got the best of him.”

  74. 74.

    Waynski

    @Kay:

    Or, impoverished graduates will conclude (rightly) that the game is rigged and they shouldn’t bother trying. That’s what scares me more than anything- that people will give up- because it’s not irrational to give up when we;ve set this up so it is fucking impossible to get ahead. It didn’t use to be this hard. I went to undergraduate basically free. I think I spent 1500 dollars of my own money.

    I wasn’t so lucky. I borrowed $8,000 and even with a low payment some brief employment gaps made it impossible to keep up. Plus, when I was paying, it was interest only, so the $8,000 never got smaller. I defaulted. The bill doubled, because there’s a penalty and the interest accumulates to your bill, so now you owe more. I was eventually able to pay it off in full, because I finally got a good paying job (even though my credit was ruined – lucky there) that allowed me to pay it down quickly. I was 46 effing years old. It’s a horrible system that almost seems designed to keep people in poverty.

    ETA – It should be illegal to check people’s credit for employment. Period.

  77. 77.

    Chris

    @satby:

    The cherry on the cake with most of those missionaries is that the countries they go to are already Christan, so they’re not even “spreading Jesus word,” just trying to convince people to switch churches.

    At least missionaries in North Korea don’t have that…

  79. 79.

    Chris

    @Waynski:

    I still say the federal government should nationalize all student debt and then just forgive it – it won’t be any less a waste of money than the Pentagon, and it’ll free up a lot of money to actually go into the economy instead of disappearing in a black hole.

  80. 80.

    Immanentize

    @Betty Cracker: I grew up near Binghamton, New York which was an industrial manfacturing city (shoes, GAF, IBM). The towns were mostly divided up: the Irish in Binghamton with the wealthy WASPs, the Czechs, Slovaks and Polish in Johnson City and S. Bingo (Polish Heaven), the Italians in Endicott.
    More important, as all the immigrant workers were Catholic, was your parish, not your town. St. Anthony’s — Italians, St. Ann’s — Slovaks, St. John’s — Irish.

    That was also true in the whole Boston area — where you from? Was answered with “St. Rafe’s or St. Joe’s” as often as the actual town

  81. 81.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

    I think younger Lefty Democrats have romanticized this and because we’re talking about “urban” – and northern– whites they believe tribalism and racism didn’t play a huge role, and it really did.

    Trump isn’t a one-off. When Trump was coming up exploiting these divisions was part of the playbook. It isn’t just hillbilly whites or southern whites. It was all northern cities. It comes up again and again in Ohio, this history, because AA’s remember it. Kucinich moved to California in the 1980’s and put all that behind him but it happened and it comes back up every election as far as urban Democratic pols who are older than 60- what it was really about.

  82. 82.

    Just One More Canuck

    @raven: @Waynski: I read stories like this and thank FSM for how lucky I was to have parents as supportive as they were, and to grow up in a city with a good university. I was able to live at home and have a part time job while doing my undergraduate degree. It wasn’t until I went to do an MBA that I had to take out any loans at all, and that was very manageable.

  83. 83.

    Barbara

    @Nicole: While I think this guy was out of line and generally comported himself as a doofus in this matter, your characterization of his article about confederate statues really distorts what he said. Basically, he wants them gone but he doesn’t want them being torn down. Personally, I don’t care whether they are torn down as such, but I really despise mob action of all kinds and we all should because it is associated with some of the most abhorrent events in our history.

    I think what happened is some version of the following: he called whoever it is at Duke who is responsible for contracting with the coffee shop, probably some kind of dining services division, and that person called the business office of the coffee shop, and somehow along the way one of them told the coffee shop or the coffee shop maintains that it was told to fire these two baristas. It wouldn’t surprise me if everyone in this story is lying in some way, except for the baristas, who seem to have a pretty straightforward and consistent explanation. It’s a local chain and Duke is probably a plum customer so I can totally imagine them doing whatever they were told or what they thought they needed to do. But still, scapegoating the baristas here is really and truly outrageous and unfair.

  84. 84.

    Procopius

    @Shalimar: Since I believe that even DPRK has the right to make their own laws, and if you are visiting their country you must follow their laws, and because I am not particularly sympathetic to Christian missionaries, no matter how willing they are to suffer for their beliefs (maybe because they seem to demand to suffer for their beliefs) I object to referring to the released prisoners as “released hostages.” They were not being held hostage. They were convicted criminals.

  86. 86.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: And some of those old guys are still in power. And some of the new Turks — like Tim Ryan from Ohio who wants Pelosi to just walk away because reasons — are still living that dream. “Dago red wine” and all.

    That is why I am a bit suspicious of the Iron Stash guy from Wisconsin — very attractive as a union dude in Paul Ryan’s district, but what lurks beneath that aspect of his identity?

  88. 88.

    JR

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I mean yes and no. Mad Tom Paine came to the US to spread Common Sense and was successful here. He then threw his lot in with the Girondins in France and nearly lost his head. His principles were the same, they were good ones, but he was in effect propagandizing.

  89. 89.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

    The carpenters union in Toledo went from being basically all-white to a real Latino presence- so much so that Latinos are running parts of it. There’s HUGE resentment. “Democratic” doesn’t mean “liberal”, in urban areas or rural areas.

    The saving grace for Democrats is that they recognize it among themselves, within the family, but since younger people don’t know this history they make mistakes regarding pols like Kucinich. So we should talk about it. Tell them.

  91. 91.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

    It’s interetsing because there’s two distinct groups- those who (in my view) admit the genesis- what happened- and adjust- become more “big tent” and those who don’t and thus never adjust. The people who adjust are more practical, not more tolerant or “better”. They know the white working class alone can’t win elections anymore, so they had to change. They were forced to adjust.

  92. 92.

    Barbara

    @Kay: The whole Reagan Democrat movement was about “ethnic” Catholics finally admitting their discomfort with civil rights and possibly not being able to “protect their own” through patronage hiring practices in both private and public service. As much as we owe to unions, union organizers and activists of today are far different from those of 50 years ago, who often protected the positions of people they identified with to the exclusion of others, and especially African Americans.

    I don’t remember all the details of Kucinich’s crazy tenure as the mayor of Cleveland, though I do remember the bankruptcy. I just know that he hewed closely to the views of “his” people, which were usually on the wrong side of gender issues as far as I was concerned. This is a complete deal breaker for me and I think Democrats who yearn for a platform that espouses some of his positions need to understand that people like me are not going to go for candidates who are willing to sell out women and minorities in order to achieve, for instance, a higher minimum wage. Maybe in the 1930s that was a price that had to be paid to get Social Security but I don’t think that’s true now.

  93. 93.

    Elizabelle

    @lamh36: Wonderful!

    How many nieces and nephews does that make now?

    I am waiting for great-nieces and nephews. Just a few years now, I think …

  94. 94.

    Sab

    @Immanentize: After at least a year of following your comments about Tim Ryan, I finally think I understand where you are coming from.

    So all along I have been in agreement with you if only I had understood your point.

  95. 95.

    Chris Johnson

    @Matt: Remember this was a Republican blog, way back in the day. I started reading somewhere around when John turned Democrat. It went very aggressively for Obama, kind of doubled down into Clintonland, isn’t the youngest crowd (myself included). I think the demographic here closely parallels who’s in power in Washington, but Balloon Juice is not an outreach program. It’s a really good window into power in a whole bunch of ways (Adam, David Anderson) and it’s up to you whether you buy into what’s represented there.

  96. 96.

    gene108

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Otto Warmbier didn’t deserve to die over taking a poster. God only knows what they did to him that got him into a coma that lead to him dying at what’s 21 or 22.

    20 year old boys do stupid shit all the time. It should get them some punishment, but not a death sentence.

  101. 101.

    gene108

    @debbie:

    Very short-sighted. Impoverished graduates still have the power of the vote.

    What if they don’t graduate? No college has a 100% graduation rate.

    Also, I think the calculation is poor people just don’t turn out to vote anywhere near their numbers, so they can be safely ignored. And so far the math holds up.

  102. 102.

    Major Major Major Major

    There’s a joke going back at least as far as Anthony Trollope about liberals “so determined to be tolerant they won’t defend even their own arguments.”

    What a great opportunity to share a Clickhole (Onion subsidiary) article I saw yesterday! A classic send-up of the genre.

    Excuse Me, Mr. Trump, Sir, But, Respectfully, Dr. Trump, Mind You, Captain President, Sir, And There’s Nothing You Can Do About It, Good Professor!

    Sorry, Mr. President, I know you’re a busy man, but if I may, please, I promise to make this quick. For quite some time sir, I’m sure you’re aware, but respectfully, Dr. Trump, mind you, Captain President, sir—and there’s nothing you can do about it, good professor!

    That’s right, Mr. Trump, my best friend, the clock is ticking, dear sir, and it’s about time. About damn time, if I may use some unseemly language, my good man and esteemed president!

  103. 103.

    satby

    @Baud: sorry, had to get to the market. WE don’t believe it should be illegal, but PRK isn’t our country. I’d like no totalitarian regimes anywhere. And a unicorn.

  104. 104.

    Amir Khalid

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    Given that there’s no love lost between Trump and America’s performing-arts community, you can play any kind of music at all, and the Trumpenvolk will stay away.

  106. 106.

    Barbara

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: If we can get angry over the injustice of someone who spends months in jail after being unable to come up with bail for a completely non-violent offense — even though this is totally provided by the law — we can get upset about the injustice of someone being sentenced to 15 years in jail for stealing a poster. Especially since it is clear that NK uses people like Warmbier as pawns to try to achieve strategic goals. It was unjust. Not worth going to war over, but unjust.

  107. 107.

    Jeffro

    Still no news about Cohen/Vekselberg, Novartis, AT&T, etc on Fox News dot com. Imagine that.

  108. 108.

    But her emails!!!

    @Kay:

    It’s interetsing because there’s two distinct groups- those who (in my view) admit the genesis- what happened- and adjust- become more “big tent” and those who don’t and thus never adjust. The people who adjust are more practical, not more tolerant or “better”. They know the white working class alone can’t win elections anymore, so they had to change. They were forced to adjust.

    The one quibble that I have to make here is that being willing to adjust in these circumstance is the “better” choice, even if the people themselves are no better. Also, my cynical nature aside, I like to think that those who adjusted in the long run will become better people due to the choice of working with other groups.

  109. 109.

    Gelfling 545

    @raven: Paid mine off last year at age 67. And that obly happened because I did 2 years with VISTA after retiring which took the amount down some.

  110. 110.

    Procopius

    @debbie:

    Impoverished graduates still have the power of the vote.

    Well, who they gonna vote for? You know who put that provision in the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005? Kindly, lovable Uncle Joe Biden. That’s hoe a lot of people now see the Democratic Party. Sure, Elizabeth Warren managed to get the Consumer Protection Agency through, against bipartisan opposition, but it’s being dismantled now. What are they gonna remember, but brutal debt peonage that endures or the blessed relief that has evaporated?

  112. 112.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    This is a great “political” piece to me because it explains something that is true, but has been forgotten.

    I don’t think the voters forgot, Kay. I think they remembered it all.

  115. 115.

    schrodingers_cat

    @rikyrah: Its the political media that has amnesia towards racism, misogyny and xenophobia, the D primary voters remembered and Kucinich got a drubbing.

    ETA: Either that or they just don’t care, or are race baiting, misogynist xenophobes themselves. They love T and before that loved Reagan. To the political media elite, this is all a game that they cover for plebes like us.

  116. 116.

    Brachiator

    @Procopius:

    What are they gonna remember, but brutal debt peonage that endures or the blessed relief that has evaporated?

    It’s not an either/or, you dope.

  121. 121.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker: It was a huge issue in Chicago for decades (and may still be). Cross a street, or the L-tracks, and the neighborhood changes dramatically. The racial/ethnic games that Kay talked about Dennis playing in Chicago was official policy there, also too. Dying the river green every St. Patty’s day, etc., etc.

    I like to think that we’re moving beyond that, but it’s happening too slowly. Comey’s</strike) Donnie's victory is an obvious setback.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  122. 122.

    The Moar You Know

    Otto Warmbier didn’t deserve to die over taking a poster. God only knows what they did to him that got him into a coma that lead to him dying at what’s 21 or 22.

    20 year old boys do stupid shit all the time. It should get them some punishment, but not a death sentence.

    @gene108: When I was a kid, I used to go over the border with my family into Mexico. And a bit later, went over as a young teenager (14) with my scout troop.

    It was explained to me very thoroughly that we were not in America, we basically had zero rights, and that if we wanted to fuck around and do stupid shit, not to go. Because that could get us jailed or killed. I took them all at their word, which ended up saving my ass when it was on the wrong end of an AK-47 down there. At age 14. I did no stupid shit and got to come home with a neat story.

    A 20 year old is an adult, not a boy, not a child. I agree that fucking around shouldn’t merit a death sentence in America (although it does here too, depending on your skin color), but it defies any kind of sense at all to think that you could go to the world’s most totalitarian country and decide to grab some souvenir posters off a wall in an area you’ve been told is a no-go zone and not pay a heavy, horrible price.

  125. 125.

    Brachiator

    @Kay:

    The idea is consumers are morons who deserve to be robbed and cheated if they’re dumb enough to borrow from these companies and they should be punished by getting ripped of. That’ll learn ’em.

    This was pretty much the ethos of Trump University.

    The dopes who voted for Trump kept saying that they wanted a man who would run the country like a business.

    And now, they are getting the business.

  126. 126.

    Nicole

    @Baud: Baud! 2020! Won’t even get the call at 3AM because his phone is turned off!

    10/10 would vote for

  127. 127.

    Nicole

    @Barbara: Respectfully disagree. This loser has been remarkable big on defending racist speech on campus:

    https://splinternews.com/duke-university-executive-reportedly-caused-baristas-to-1825883469

    What makes this even more interesting is the fact that Moneta himself has a past defending “freedom of speech,” largely in light of the use of racist hate speech on campus. Nearly two weeks ago, Moneta caught flak for tweeting about the freedom of speech a day after a releasing a statement condemning an incident in which a student was caught using racially derogatory language on Snapchat (though he insisted the language itself was not in violation of Duke policies on expression). Shortly after Moneta’s free speech tweet was posted, Duke sent out an email to campus residents regarding another racially motivated incident: a racial slur had been written on a residence door on campus. But sure, freedom of expression!

    If you read his statement, he talks about how “disappointing” he finds the student’s use of racist language, but says it’s not in violation of Duke’s policies. So, the student is “disappointing” but doesn’t face consequences, but a barista who was unfortunate enough to be working when a song he didn’t like came on the Spotify playlist (which she had no control over) gets fired, even though she shut it off as soon as he complained. Because bad words are only “disappointing” when they come from white mouths. But bad words sung by a black artist in a coffee shop is deserving of punishment. He even used the “think of the children” excuse. Duke’s problem is not trap music in a coffee shop.

    And if you really think the demand to fire didn’t come from Duke, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. The man got on the phone right after he left the coffee shop to complain. Come. On.

  128. 128.

    Brachiator

    @The Moar You Know:

    It was explained to me very thoroughly that we were not in America, we basically had zero rights, and that if we wanted to fuck around and do stupid shit, not to go.

    Who explained this to you? A US government official who knew something about the actual laws of Mexico?

    Obviously, college students and tourists have been going to Mexico for decades, often specifically to do stupid shit, and come back unharmed and happy. Yeah, people should be cautious and respectful, but catastrophic situations are rare, even for idiots.

    We have a State Department which tries to get our people back when they are detained, for whatever reason. Even when people do something that is obviously and inarguably dumb.

    When Michael Fay was sentenced to a caning for vandalism in Singapore, righteous Americans criticized Bill Clinton for trying to intervene and even wrote letters to the Singapore government applauding the idea that the punk would get what he deserved, even if it left him physically scarred.

    And in paranoid, arbitrary regimes like North Korea, anything and everything you do could be considered a crime against the state. You cannot always know when something you do will be considered an offense.

  129. 129.

    Barbara

    @Nicole: I have no doubt he complained about the employees. I don’t think he was the one on the phone with the coffee shop management. So the game of telephone obscures exactly who said what to whom and leaves it open to interpretation. He overreacted but then, so did the other people in the chain. I am not disagreeing with you on the overall tone and tenor of the incident, and what it conveys about Duke. I am an alumni and you don’t have to tell me about how differently people of color are treated or were treated when I was there, at least by university police. An employee who puts on a Spotify play list that she selected but did not create is held responsible for vulgar lyrics while other people are not held responsible for their own racist language. Not defending him, at all, but saying you are overreaching in your interpretation of the facts as known. It never pays to do that.

  130. 130.

    Waynski

    @Chris:

    I still say the federal government should nationalize all student debt and then just forgive it – it won’t be any less a waste of money than the Pentagon, and it’ll free up a lot of money to actually go into the economy instead of disappearing in a black hole.

    Abso effing lutely

  131. 131.

    Barbara

    @Waynski: It will be a potentially huge windfall to financial institutions, but I guess that’s still better than hitting people over the head with ongoing liability for interest, penalties, etc. The way to do it would be to pass legislation stating that the government would pay 100% of the principal as of day X, which will cut off all future efforts to collect interest from any borrower.

  132. 132.

    tobie

    @Chris Johnson:

    I think the demographic here closely parallels who’s in power in Washington…It’s a really good window into power in a whole bunch of ways.

    The demographic of this blog is middle-aged, liberal folk. Sounds like a big stretch to say that posters here represent the movers and shakers in DC. If that were the case, what a great country we would be. Proud defenders of the social contract holding any and every office of significance.

  133. 133.

    J R in WV

    @bystander

    I don’t know where you got your mistaken impression that the incident at Yale university would not have happened had she merely shown her id. She did that, used her room key to unlock her door, none of that stopped the harassment.

    “We get to decide who’s allowed here” the senior LEO said to her.

  134. 134.

    Brachiator

    @J R in WV:

    I don’t know where you got your mistaken impression that the incident at Yale university would not have happened had she merely shown her id.

    I read his comment as being full of snark.

    Also, I guess I am going to have to look at the story. The whole thing sounds insane. I wonder why New Haven cops were involved at all. There are, or used to be, campus police.

  135. 135.

    satby

    @Immanentize: He’s a cancer survivor who advocates for some sort of universal coverage and has been very anti the privatized prison pipeline. Follow him on Twitter, he’s saying the things most of us agree with. These aren’t new positions for him.

  136. 136.

    WaterGirl

    @J R in WV: @Brachiator: Yeah, that comment was full of snark. But sometimes there’s so much crazy that it’s easy to believe someone might actually say all of that sincerely. Even if doing so makes them a total piece of shit racist idiot.

  137. 137.

    Waynski

    @Barbara:

    I still say the federal government should nationalize all student debt and then just forgive it – it won’t be any less a waste of money than the Pentagon, and it’ll free up a lot of money to actually go into the economy instead of disappearing in a black hole.

    That’s an interesting idea, but what would stop people from just waiting until day X, if I’m following you correctly? Public universities should be free ( or very low cost) to anyone who qualifies. Spending so much on the military without educating our people keeps us stupid, dangerous and in hock up to our necks.

  138. 138.

    Chris

    @tobie:

    I assume that was meant to read “who’s in power in Washington in the Democratic Party.” Although even then I’m pretty sure the average Balloon Juicer is a good deal more liberal than the average Democratic politician. We’re just realistic enough to grok that expecting them to bring about the United Federation of Planets during their first two years in office is completely nuts no matter what their personal politics, because that’s not how this country works.

  140. 140.

    Ella in New Mexico

    @The Moar You Know: And yet, is it possible to say that it was completely naive and foolish for 20 year old to pretty much have even thought of goin to N Korea in the first place AND still not demean his religious beliefs and degrade his essential human value by stating he deserved what happened to him under a that despotic regime? Or do we all just reserve that for the “right” kinds of martyrs?

  141. 141.

    Ella in New Mexico

    @TTT: pitiful. Having had the terrible opportunity of being assigned the care for the once young and healthy and vigorous bodies of 20 year old or two, now permanently brain-damaged and on a ventilator, it is a truly tragic thing. There they are, looking on the outside as beautiful and healthy and fit as a horse, meanwhile they will never again be able to hike in the mountains with their friends, discover their true passions and gifts in life, see the day where they graduate from college, buy their first car, marry their sweet heart, bounce their baby on their knee. It is simply the hardest assignment I can ever get in the ICU to care for a young adult who did a stupid thing to lead to the fact he or she will never wake up. None deserve it.

  142. 142.

    Citizen Alan

    @Matt:

    We’re never going to get the votes of people who think that the Democratic Party should rebrand itself as the Democratic Socialist Party. And particularly not the people who are willing to see Republicans win if they think it will force such a rebranding. Much better, in my opinion, to focus on increasing turnout among the nominally Democratic voters who stay home because they listen to morons who say there’s no difference between the parties.

  144. 144.

    buck2202

    @rikyrah:

    I don’t think the voters forgot, Kay. I think they remembered it all.

    I was for Cordray before I was against Kucinich, and I leaned towards Sutton before Cordray entered, so, win win. But I’ve been voting in/around Cleveland for ~15 years, and I never really knew about this aspect of Kucinich’s history; when he was still in congress, I just saw him as the ineffective but mostly harmless rep from the next district over. I’m filing the Scene article away with his more recent nonsense just in case he’s not gone for good.

  145. 145.

    TenguPhule

    @Baud:

    Remember when Bobby Jindal mocked volcano monitoring?

    Funny thing, we’re in need of a human sacrifice to appease our upset Goddess.

    Jindai should do nicely.

  146. 146.

    TenguPhule

    @Kay:

    No one is clear what they’re supposed to do about it, however, because this theory includes no mechanism or process to get their money back or punish anyone who took it.

    Pretty Sure the NRA advertising isn’t there just to be pretty. //

  147. 147.

    TenguPhule

    @Barbara:

    which will cut off all future efforts to collect interest from any borrower.

    You’re not very familiar with our current financial institutions, are you?

    I guarantee that once the federal government pays out, those loan holders will immediately resell the remaining portions of debt to collection agencies for them to do what they do best.

  149. 149.

    stinger

    @lamh36: Welcome, Joshua David! A long, healthy, happy life to you, you sweet little boy with an ADORABLE chin!

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