The Mayor of 9-11 has some major issues. First among them is his mouth appears to be disconnected from his short and long term memory! Yesterday NBC reported that Rudy Giuliani told them that Special Counsel Mueller told him that the President can’t be indicted because of the 1970s DOJ Office of Legal Counsel guidance.*
Special counsel Robert Mueller’s office has told President Donald Trump’s legal team that he won’t indict a sitting president, according to Rudy Giuliani, one of Trump’s lawyers.
“They (the special counsel’s office) acknowledge the fact that they can’t indict us,” Giuliani told NBC News on Wednesday, indicating that the information had been conveyed to Trump’s lawyers. “They know they don’t have that power. So their function is to write a report. We would like it to be the fairest report possible. But even if it isn’t, we’re prepared to rebut it in great detail, so we’d like them to do it.”
He added: “It’s as clear as can be that they don’t have the right to indict under the Justice Department rules. And I know they’re not going to indict.”
Unfortunately for Rudy Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani then told the Washington Post that Rudy Giuliani wasn’t actually at the meeting.
Key exchanges tonight between Giuliani and @washingtonpost — Mueller himself didn’t seem to say anything, but a SC deputy called days later, per Giuliani pic.twitter.com/mRGosNAh5K
— Robert Costa (@costareports) May 16, 2018
Let’s just emphasize the important news that Rudy Giuliani broke about Rudy Giuliani to Robert Costa in the transcripts that Costa posted in his tweet above – click it to embiggen the top right side of the transcript, which I’ve transcribed below for your convenience (emphasis mine):
The Washington Post: Did Mueller explicitly say he would not charge the President?
Giuliani: “He didn’t say that. One of his – I have to check with Jay, he’s in Israel right now. One of his top people told him that.“
So according to Rudy Giuliani, who was clarifying to The Washington Post what Rudy Giuliani told NBC News, one of Mueller’s top people told Jay Sekulow, whose currently in Israel, that Special Counsel Mueller would not charge the President. Rudy Giuliani has now further muddied Rudy Giuliani’s messaging up by explaining that Rudy Giuliani doesn’t actually know what was specifically said because it was said to Jay Sekulow who is in Israel, but whatever it was it wasn’t said by Special Counsel Mueller himself.
Unfortunately, Rudy Giuliani who has now explained that Rudy Giuliani does not actually know what happened at this meeting between the Special Counsel and some of his personnel and Jay Sekulow because Jay Sekulow is in Israel and Rudy Giuliani was not there did not get with Rudy Giuliani who decided to further clarify Rudy Giuliani’s clarification of Rudy Giuliani’s statement that the Special Counsel told Rudy Giuliani directly that he couldn’t prosecute the President. Take it away Talking Points Memo!
“He didn’t seem to want to give the answer,” Giuliani told the Post. “It reminded me of that scene in ‘The Godfather,’ with Sonny and the Godfather, where he said, ‘Oh, you’re going to take care of us? We can take care of ourselves.’ One of his assistants broke in and said, ‘Well of course, we’re bound by Justice Department policies.’ Mueller looked at him like, ‘Don’t interrupt me.’”
In case everyone has, like the various Rudy Giulianis, lost the plot here, let me summarize:
- Rudy Giuliani told NBC News that Special Counsel Mueller told him directly that he could not prosecute the President because of the 1970s guidance from the Office of Legal Counsel.
- Rudy Giuliani, in an attempt to clarify what Rudy Giuliani told NBC News, told The Washington Post that he doesn’t actually know what Special Counsel Mueller or his personnel told Jay Sekulow and he can’t find out because Jay is in Israel.
- Rudy Giuliani, in an attempt to sound tough and make Special Counsel Mueller look bad, as well as further clarify Rudy Giuliani’s clarification to The Washington Post of Rudy Giuliani’s (who comes from a family that was mobbed up) statement to NBC News, stated that Bob Mueller (who brought down John Gotti) is like an Italian mafioso from a movie.
According to The Washington Post:
A spokesman for the special counsel declined to comment.
Everybody clear?
Open thread!
* Neal Katyal who wrote the existing guidelines for DOJ Special Counsels had this to say about the 1970s Office of Legal Counsel guidance:
“This old opinion from 20 years ago does preclude, in general, the Justice Department from indicting a sitting president for constitutional reasons,” Katyal said. “But an exception can be given.”
Katyal repeated Wednesday that the rules “permit Mueller to depart from DOJ policy.”
Referring to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosentein, who is acting as attorney general in the context of the Russia investigation because Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself, Katyal said on MSNBC’s “All In With Chris Hayes”: “The way to do this is to ask the acting attorney general, so he does have a way forward.”
While I’m sure everyone will have fun with this in the comments, there really is no settled law on this. As a political scientist and criminologist I understand all three of the major legal theories/positions on this, and definitely have my own view on which is right, as well as why the OLC memo was written the way it was written during Watergate. That said, I expect that Special Counsel Mueller will play everything straight based on his career as a Federal prosecutor and Director of the FBI. Regardless, we will just have to wait and see.
TenguPhule
There is still an element of doubt about this?
TenguPhule
This is a Mel Brooks film tribute taken to the point of complete absurdity.
kindness
TrumpCo is all in on the Chaos Theory covering their asses for everything looks like.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Thank you. I’ve been thinking through how to do this justice all day. You don’t find this type of bespoke, Mel Brooksian tribute snark on just any blog or website.
LAO
Rudy is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad defense attorney. That is all.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman: The only other thing that comes immediately to mind is the Court Jester’s classic:
“Hawkins: I’ve got it! I’ve got it! The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true! Right?
Griselda: Right. But there’s been a change: they broke the chalice from the palace!
Hawkins: They *broke* the chalice from the palace?
Griselda: And replaced it with a flagon.
Hawkins: A flagon…?
Griselda: With the figure of a dragon.
Hawkins: Flagon with a dragon.
Griselda: Right.
Hawkins: But did you put the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle?
Griselda: No! The pellet with the poison’s in the flagon with the dragon! The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!
Hawkins: The pellet with the poison’s in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.
Griselda: Just remember that.”
dmsilev
I suspect that if Mueller came across as a character from a Mafia movie, it would be this one:
LAO
I’m just just going throw this out here:
Ella in New Mexico
I think Goooliani is trying to make a Hail Mary defense case that Trump has been so sabotaged by incompetent council who have essentially plead guilty for him that it would be impossible to ever get a fair hearing–in an impeachment or in a court– on his criminal activities and thus should not be held accountable for them. Only reasonable explanation because we simply cannot be so lucky as to have his behaviors as Trump’s legal counsel be as stupid and miscalculated as they appear to be.
Plus I’m guessing he’s trying to soften the upcoming whams on the head with a cast iron skillet Trump cult worshipers being nourished daily watching Fox are going to be getting soon…by floating to them Trump actually did do everything he’s been saying is Fake News.
trollhattan
Somebody punked the Mormon Church bigly.
Yup, awkward.
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of assholes.
opiejeanne
@LAO: but I’m not wishing he’d move to Australia.
danielx
Which Giuliani is on first? CAN’T ANYBODY HERE PLAY THIS GAME?
Shell
Are we sure he willingly left his former law firm?
Major Major Major Major
But are you aware of all internet traditions?
Brachiator
If Trump weren’t such a dope, he’d fire all three of these incompetent ambulance chasers….
Kay
I can’t listen to Giuliani. He’s one of the Trumspters I really loathe.
The “can’t indict a sitting President” thing bothers me. The United States has a really harsh criminal justice system. Sentences are ridiculously long, everything and its brother is a felony and for a country like ours, where we seem to LOVE punishment, to decide that the President can’t be subject to to the same process as everyone else? It just sticks in my craw.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: That was a great scene as was the Monkees’ spoof/tribute/homage to it.
Adam L Silverman
@LAO: Full disclosure: I am not related to Alex Silverman.
trollhattan
@kindness:
Every moment is a Gish gallop. Suspect it’s part who they are; part looting “quick, before the cops arrive”; and part squid-cloud obfuscation and misdirection–“there’s nothing to see here hey, is this your watch?”
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
Sarah? I want to meet Sarah.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: Well played!
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: well, sometimes they’re just being idiots.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I did type:
…
gene108
@LAO:
You assume his job is to defend his client in court. I think it’s to create enough talking points to inoculate the right-wing base against any truth that might come out. He’s a PR man masquerading as a defense lawyer.
germy
I was sort of half watching the CBS Evening News with Jeff Glor last night, but it looked like they presented the “Can’t indict a sitting president” as fact. The reporter told Glor it was a DOJ tradition, and then they moved on to the next story.
opiejeanne
@trollhattan: I love this! I’m sure the Tribune staff giggled with glee.
Roger Moore
@Ella in New Mexico:
I think this is overthinking things. The much simpler and more obvious explanation is that Rudy Giuliani is an incompetent buffoon who would never have been allowed near a legal proceeding of this importance and complexity if Trump were able to hire somebody better.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: And that’s at least 2 Rudy Giulianis more than anyone wants and/or needs.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: I’m not related to her either.
LAO
@gene108: Fair enough. I think he’s a shitty PR guy as well. At some point Trump’s legal team (and I use that term loosely) is going to have to expand their efforts towards convincing non-RWNJs. I’m not sure that Guiliani accomplishes that.
Kay
@Ella in New Mexico:
He’s a terrible lawyer. Bad lawyers overpromise and then when they can’t deliver they start screaming that everyone is corrupt and they were robbed. Good lawyers don’t overpromise and all he does is overpromise. He promised the Trumpsters that Clinton was going to prison too. When it didn’t happen he then had to start screeching and defaming everyone else.
He’s TOO OLD to be this bad at this, which means it’s hopeless. He’ll always suck.
Mary G
I still find it hard to believe that we handed America over to these senile loons.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
Darn the luck. She’d be perfect to spice up those dreaded dull family gettogethers.
ruemara
I am absolutely sure this is a misinfo/”my counsel was obviously incompetent” campaign. It feeds the base the lies they need to keep supporting him, muddies the waters for the low info viewer as it’s always unchecked by the pundit they’re talking to & makes a bunch of traitorous grifters look like they’re the 3 stooges and just accidentally have been crooks for most their lives. Nah, not buying it.
Adam L Silverman
This should be fun!
trollhattan
Kent State U is known to most for but one thing. Now you may add another.
Oh, the humanity.
LAO
@trollhattan: Apparently, on Fox and Friends (or some Fox show) this am, Bennett claimed she was the victim of racial discrimination because people were calling out her white privilege. SMH at the level of pure, rank stupidity.
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: I saw that. She’s… literally advocating shooting national guard troops.
ETA also it is 100% pure trolling and I have spent all the mental energy on it that I’m allowing myself
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: Sanity has left the building.
catclub
@LAO:
Nope.
Next you can tell us that Trump needs to pivot to being presidential, and stop his twitter rants. Nope.
He only needs to feed his base. As long as he keeps his base and the GOP in the House and senate, he has NO need to convince anyone else.
Mike J
So Rudy thinks Mueller has enough to prosecute a normal person, but the only thing holding him back from throwing Trump in jail is that he can’t indict a president. He then goes on to compare himself and the Trump org to an organized crime family.
Never, ever use your one phone call to call Rudy. Your speeding ticket is going to turn into a death penalty case.
Mike in NC
Donald Trump only hires the very best people. Like lawyers who haven’t actually practiced law in more than 20 years.
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
I’d be somebody who really wanted to could do just that. The could just walk up behind her and grab the thing; unless she’s exceptionally wary, they could get both hands on her gun before she noticed they were there. It’s not as if she could actually get a gun slung that way into action fast enough to respond to a crisis, either.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Don’t you mean three?
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Its also not true. They are gaslighting on this.
catclub
@Major Major Major Major:
um… that …. is doing a lot of work. She may be suggesting that if the students had been armed the Guard might not have shot at them, but even that is a stretch.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
I dunno, we go far enough back in your family tree, I’m sure we’ll find something.
Or are you really a robot, who is also a sea monster?
Adam L Silverman
I’m not sure what the Czechs did to deserve this, but it must have been very, very, very, very bad!
LAO
@Mike J: It’s kind of funny, if you think about it, that the defense offered by Giuliani is — Trump may have committed some felonies but since Mueller can’t indict a sitting president, the investigation should be shut down.
catclub
@Mike in NC: it says right there ‘best people’, not best lawyers.
Baud
Noun + Verb + ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
schrodingers_cat
@catclub: She seems to be suggesting that she could have won a firefight with the National Guard troops.
ruemara
@catclub: That’s exactly what she’s saying. If the students had had guns, they National Guard wouldn’t have been able to kill them. It’s not a stretch, it’s verbatim. Unless you have some other way of interpreting what she said.
TenguPhule
@Mike J:
The good news is that this now applies to white people. Progress!
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: Makes Russian aggression seems like a welcome respite.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Isn’t that against the Geneva Conventions?
If not, it should be.
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: I could have the magazine out, the chamber cleared, and the sling cut before she could turn around. Or, I could be mean and just leave it intact and apply a lateral vascular restraint on her with the sling, using the AR 10 for leverage, before she could turn around. What she did was stupid.
Amir Khalid
@Adam L Silverman:
At some point Rudy is going to start accusing Rudy of lying.
@Shell:
It’s pretty clear from the reporting that he was fired for publicly saying the firm was a party to illicit hush-money payments. Was it true? Shrug.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Prague is in Ukraine now?
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: I was giving it the benefit of the doubt that someone, somewhere wanted one.
jl
Thanks for an informative post on this. Glad to see that Rudy is providing, under pressure, some policing for Rudy’s BS.
IANAL, not an expert on political science or criminology, and I am not aware of all internet traditions. I’m not an expert on the three major theories on impeachment and criminal indictment and trial of a sitting president.
So, all I can do is appeal to common sense. I thin both expansive ‘living constitution’ and textualist/strict constructionists/original intenter schools recognize that it is important to pay some attention to what the Framers said, explicitly said, very explicitly said, about what impeachment and consequent trial and removal from office by Congress is and is not. And I think there was an unusual consensus among people of different ideological persuasions, like Madison, Hamilton, Wilson, Mason, Franklin, etc. And note that they managed to persuade some initial skeptics like Morris and I believe Pickney. And any theory that directly contradicts what they said should be considered very doubtful, and we don’t need to take it seriously. And from reading what the Framers said, I think the following points are clear:about impeachment and criminal liability of Presdient
Not intended for violations of statute law, but also for political crimes against the people of the US not covered by criminal law
There is no double jeopardy for impeachment and criminal liability for same ofenses
Acts that are, on their face, lawful or constitutional can be impeachable offenses if done for corrupt purpose (unitary executive theory is bunk at least on that point)
Congress is sole judge, House for indictment (impeachment) and Senate for trial and removal
Also, note that Aaron Burr spent a good chunk of his term as VP on the lam from two state murder charges. I don’t remember anyone thinking anything odd about that, since a lot of evidence he shot and killed Hamilton in an illegal duel. So I think that precedent shows that no constitutional bar to indictment of executive branch officers. There are pragmatic arguments against indictment of president, but that is a different matter.
That is the IMHO on it.
LAO
Kimba Wood is an awesome District Court Judge. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Cohen must be fuming right now.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
But is it any stupider then the stuff we’re seeing day after day from the ReallyNot Goodfellas?
Mike J
@Adam L Silverman: Actually it’s a clip.
Adam L Silverman
Where was he radicalized? Who was his minister? Will the NRA denounce him? Will all other white, male conservative Americans denounce him? Why won’t they speak up?
Spanky
@opiejeanne: If the LDS had any brains, they’d claim that Nelson actually did say that. Just get the damn thing over with.
Also too: Nelson
Major Major Major Major
@catclub: fine. She’s literally advocating being willing and able to shoot national guard troops at a moment’s notice.
geg6
@Kay:
Well, the people saying this aren’t really on solid ground, are they? It was the judgment of the DoJ in the 1970s that you couldn’t indict a sitting president, but that doesn’t mean that is correct. It’s never been tried, so I don’t see any reason Mueller couldn’t give it a shot.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, fingers got ahead of my processor. I’ll fix it. Good catch!
? Martin
My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who overheard Mueller say that the President can’t be indicted at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
No.
SATSQ.
jl
@jl: And I’ve never read that there was push back on Franklin’s pithy summary that if things got so bad with a president that it would be very important for the safety of the country to remove the jackass by any means necessary, a less extreme measure like impeachment and trial in Congress was vastly preferable.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
Oh, darn.
I was hoping we could get some pro-grade snark around here. I kid ;-) . But you knew that.
? Martin
@Adam L Silverman:
Fox News.
Sean Hannity
Heh
Come on, now you’re just being silly.
Gelfling 545
@LAO: Nonsense. He is merely extremely efficient. He presents both sides of the case himself. And a few extra, jusr for fun.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
Thanks. I read a little about it so I know it’s discretionary to a certain extent. I just hate how people say it “he CANNOT be indicted!” It sounds gross to me- like courtiers for the King or something.
If I were a Democratic politician I would run on “there is a white collar crime wave and we have to crack down!”
Just like that. That blunt. My God, the examples you could cite! The greed, the grossness, the special pleading and privilege. I feel like someone could tell this story in a way that would reach people. Tough on crime, but with a twist.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike J: Well played.
When I was in the army the words were interchangeable. Obviously, as professionals not obsessive freaks, we had no idea what we were talking about.
Adam L Silverman
Off to the gym, you all play nice or Rudy Giuliani will ask Rudy Giuliani to ask Rudy Giuliani to come and explain things to you!
LAO
@jl: Whether we like it or not, the question of whether the Department of Justice can seek and obtain an Indictment against a sitting president is an open question — and partially because we, as a nation, have never been in this situation before. As Adam cited in his post, Neal Katyal doesn’t dismiss the possibility of an indictment out of hand. Also, I have recently read, that one of the distinctions the DOJ will look at, is whether the criminal conduct occurred during the Presidency or prior to it, with the belief that the President may be un-indictable for current conduct, but not prior conduct. I really not sure where I read it or I would include a link.
feebog
Rudy is so comically inept at this lawyering stuff, you just have to laugh. Mueller and his team have ROTFLOL every time he makes a TV appearance.
jl
@J R in WV: So, there is no pic of Sarah and Adam L Silverman together.
ALS’s snark and humor is so dry, I have been operating under the theory that they are the same person. Sarah Silverman’s moonlighting gigi under deep cover. That would explain a lot of the mysteries surrounding the supposed ‘Adam’ Silverman,
geg6
@LAO:
I must have read the same thing (no idea where). But I’m not sure that makes any sense to me. But IANAL, so it may make sense to someone who is.
jl
@LAO: Since to some extent what the law is and does is a function of what the people in charge of enforcing it think it is and decide to do about, in that sense I agree completely that it is an open question.
My point was that I don’t think there are any plausible constitutional arguments against it, at least arguments that pay attention to the Framer’s debates and subsequent statements, and evidence of practice back when almost all of them were there to comment on the current events of the time.
Would be interesting if a state decided to indict a president. I can’t think of a better test case than Trump.
Major Major Major Major
@jl: I’ve talked to him on the phone he is definitely not Sarah Silverman
catclub
Did Qaddafi actually have nuclear weapons? I always thought he had done some research but was not all the way there.
in some bloomberg article:
Ruckus
@LAO:
Is Rudy 9/11 licensed to practice law in any state? Or has he been in the last 25 years?
Gelfling 545
@catclub: Yeah. As long as. To quote the philosopher, Tick, Tock.
Patricia Kayden
@trollhattan: LOL!! Perfect. How hard is it to apologize for a church doctrine which was based on nothing but racism and bigotry? Should be a no brainer especially since so many of your members are Black.
jl
@Major Major Major Major: You are denying Sarah Silverman’s talents as an actress and comedian who can easily adopt many guises? OK then.
TenguPhule
@LAO:
Limited Immunity for actions performed as a official government function is a common feature.
LAO
Well, well, well. You get what you pay for:
Yarrow
@Kay:
OMG, that is brilliant. They should all run on that. People are still mad that almost nobody has significant jail time for the 2008 almost-depression and most of those people are back screwing people over again.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Voice changing devices are not that expensive these days.
rp
Someone should have tackled the Kent State student and said they thought she was a school shooter.
TenguPhule
@catclub:
Weapons grade Nuclear material.
They actually had chemo and bio weapons ready for use.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@? Martin:
The president is holed up in a sanctuary Ice Creamery?
jonas
These knuckleheads are so used to going on fake news shows on Fox where their job is just to spray bullshit around the studio for 10 minutes that they forget when talking to an actual reporter that they have to, you know, remain grounded in some sort of acknowledged objective reality.
Gelfling 545
@Adam L Silverman: Just one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time and is proven upon later consideration to have been a mistake.
burnspbesq
@Roger Moore:
I’ve often fantasized about getting in line behind one of these gun-humpers at a fast-food joint where he is struggling to comprehend the menu, and in a normal, conversational tone saying something like “hey, pal, your situational awareness is for shit. If I’d wanted to, I could have taken you out any time in the last three minutes.”
LAO
@Ruckus: He is currently registered in NYS. (And presumably in the Federal Courts as well).
trollhattan
@Omnes Omnibus:
You’ll run into service writers who discuss your transmission and discover to your horror that the mechanic working on your car calls that thing a “gearbox.”
“I demand the man who replaces my synchro gears be one who can elucidate properly!” said nobody, ever.
Brachiator
@catclub:
Trump may have just double downed on this. According to the Guardian.
Of course, Trump doesn’t even understand what Bolton was talking about.
Hmmm. I think that Nobel Peace Prize Trump was counting on may be slip sliding away.
Trump, Bolton, Rudy G. The Three Stooges of the Apocalypse
jl
@Gelfling 545: I for one, think we need all the Rudy’s helping us on this one. It is insufferable, but having Rudy debunk himself on a regular basis saves the rest of society a lot of needless work.
OTOH, did you confess to giving the BJ commentariate the benefit of the doubt? Or did I misunderstand. Can’t believe anyone would be that deluded.
Edit: sorry that was meant for Adam Silverman. I just stuffed myself with mass quantities of free lunch, so am too punchy to comment right now. My apologies.
MattF
The (obvious!) solution is that there are six different Rudy Giulianis.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@feebog:
I doubt there is much laughing as each appearance requires adding to the files and possibly investigating a new crime. More Rudi, more problems.
Waynski
@Kay:
Can we call it Bonfire of the Hannitys?
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
Kim is going to triple dog dare Trump to stick his tongue to that flagpole.
Yarrow
@Waynski: That would be good. For a slightly less delicate crowd, “Jump you motherfuckers” works for me.
trollhattan
@Brachiator:
“Arab Spring continues on Korean Peninsula” will be a headline for the ages. I forget, are the Kims Shia or Sunni?
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
Where does Scott Pruitt fit in?
Or is it Jeff Sessions?
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
They should revoke her degree on the grounds that she’s clearly a moron.
jonas
@Mike in NC: Like someone pointed out upthread, these “lawyers” like Giuliani aren’t there to provide actual legal counsel in a conventional sense, they’re there to go on TV and reinforce the narrative — however stupidly, but it’s Fox viewers we’re talking about here — that the president is the poor victim of a relentless, illegitimate prosecution so that when Mueller’s report drops and basically lays a whole universe of political and financial crimes at Trump’s feet, his base doesn’t waver. If the base doesn’t waver, GOP reps and Senators won’t waver, and if GOP reps and Senators don’t waver, there’s no impeachment and (were the House to eventually flip) no conviction.
burnspbesq
Bob Bauer and others at Lawfare have repeatedly shredded the reasoning of the 2000 OLC opinion and it’s 1970s predecessor. Rosenstein has the power to tell Mueller to ignore them.
TenguPhule
SHS DOUBLES DOWN!!!
I did nazi that coming.
Waynski
@Yarrow: I like yours better :)
MattF
@TenguPhule: Sarah just earned her keep.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
But then the graduating class would become a graduating person.
TenguPhule
@MattF: Sarah Sanders: Trump calling MS-13 members animals ‘doesn’t go far enough’
Leto
@Major Major Major Major: Didn’t know that Kent State was selling degrees now. I’d say nobody that stupid could have passed, but here we are.
TenguPhule
Haspel confirmed, CIA now no longer under American control.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: she’s much funnier and much better looking than I am.
jl
@MattF: I think the maximum theoretically possible number of Rudy’s is eleven. So nothing to worry about. We can plan on how to handle the pain of multiple Rudy’s and how to process the theoretical maximum Rudy self-debunking rate. There’s a transform for that.
Kay
@Yarrow:
It would be fun, too. So much of conservative law ‘n order is punching down. This would be punching up.
You could do that “renounce!” thing that political media love so much, too. Make Republicans RENOUNCE white collar criminals.
Let’s make campaigns fun again!
Yarrow
@TenguPhule: They’re all the Keystone Cops of the Apocalypse.
catclub
@MattF: she needs to bring up vermin and cockroaches more often, for full credit. Also machete’s.
jl
Hear on news machine that state judge is letting a defamation lawsuit proceed against Trump. So we may get a number of interesting test cases on whether a sitting president is above any law at all in the US.
Mike J
@Omnes Omnibus:
Every single person in the world calls the AK-47’s curved magazine a banana clip. I’ll bet if read NRA magazines (heh) mentioning that rifle, they call it a banana clip. There’s no reason to make a distinction unless you’re trying to silence the opposition.
TenguPhule
@jl:
After that we pass the moron event horizon and everything collapses into single verb and noun.
Yarrow
@Kay: It would be fun! I’d be all for it. Please, please, please let’s get right on making politicians RENOUNCE white collar criminals!
catclub
@Yarrow: That pranked website on the Mormons looks like more fun. Do them for the big banks.
catclub
@TenguPhule:
this is why string theory has to collapse all those extra dimensions.
Barbara
@trollhattan: I give up on what she could possibly mean by bringing up the four Kent State students who were killed during a protest. Is she suggesting that if the four students had been armed they could have defended themselves from their attackers — members of the Ohio National Guard?
trollhattan
Those in charge of correcting the correction have been sacked. One more of these and somebody’s committing seppuku.
Brachiator
@TenguPhule:
I think Pruitt would be the Shemp Howard of the Stooge Apocalypse.
@TenguPhule:
They have learned from their boss and clearly know what pleases him. Trump never backs down from or retracts an insult. But he is quick to demand a groveling apology for the tiniest perceived slight. This is the official standard of the Trump administration.
They are exactly who we thought they were.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: Richard Painter is basically running on this plus single payer and a few other things in Minnesota for Franken’s old seat.
Corner Stone
Looks like I may have to tune into Chris Hayes one more time tonight. I hope I’m not going to get “Maddow with the taxes”
ETA, he goes on to twit that it’s not the pee tape.
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: I haven’t been following his candidacy. I have some contacts in MN. I’ll see what they have to say.
Shana
@Adam L Silverman: Link please.
Jeffro
MSNBC’s running Jackass’s tweets and endless “witch hunt” comments – more free airtime for the Ill Douche. Oh hey, now comments from a reporter and the cream cheese sculpture.
Baud
@Corner Stone: I hope it’s not something they should have uncovered during the election.
danielx
@LAO:
I have to admit it – I’m coming to believe that if I was on trial for my life, Rudy Giuliani’s name is not one that would spring to my mind as a defense attorney.
How the hell did he ever get to be a US Attorney?
Brachiator
WaPo almost gets it right:
Of course, when it comes to nonwhite people, Trump cannot be bothered to distinguish between the accused and the convicted, the innocent and the guilty, or even mere bystanders.
Trump sticks to the lie no matter what, and demands that his staff do likewise. And so, his press secretary has to stand by her man.
ETA: Trump is never wrong. He never backed down from his false accusations about the Central Park Five, not even when they were exonerated.
Yarrow
@Corner Stone: I cannot watch Chris Hayes.
Doug R
@TenguPhule:
So is he Andy or Ollie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hEgvtaIYBo
Yarrow
Speaking of white collar crime, this is good news:
MattF
@Brachiator: Trump’s done many, many, many bad things, but the Central Park Five business is the worst.
ETA: I know, just one man’s opinion.
Corner Stone
@Yarrow: I’ve had to stop watching him for reasons. If it were Maddow pimping a hyped tape of something I would pass and just read about it on twit. But I’ll give the easily rolled frat boy hipster douche an eyeball. Unless Miami Vice w/ Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx is on. Then it’s all bets are off!
Bobby Thomson
@trollhattan: I thought that would be about the document forger.
Yarrow
This would be hell.
Kay
The real “breaking news” is they aren’t denying this anymore. They moved right to “no one can indict him for anything”.
That is a LONG ways from where they were in January of ’17.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@burnspbesq:
Even better “Come on pal, what if I was an Anfita She-Feminist? “Allah Akbar” would have been the last thing you heard before the dirt nap. AMERICA needs ever man in THE GAME buddy if we are to win this! Catching us with our pants down is the classic liberal game, like Hitler at St Petersburg in 1917! Are you an AmeriCAN or AmericCAN’T?”
Amir Khalid
@jl:
For some reason I found myself thinking of a Rudy Giuliani FC.
Mandalay
@jonas:
They are irrelevant. There are barely 3 million of them at best, and most are going to vote Republican anyway, if they don’t die before the next election.
Far more importantly, Fox serves as a conduit for our failed media to present the “news” that “…(someone doofus on fox says) THE MUELLER INQUIRY IS A WITCH HUNT!!!!“.
Trump is completely correct about there being a lot of fake news. But most of it is not fake in the sense that he portrays it: as fabrication and malicious bias. It is “fake” simply because it is not news; it is not worth reporting.
Aventatti releasing specific new information about payments made by Cohen is real news. Trump saying he doesn’t know anything about a payment to Stormy Daniels is real news. Giuliani or Sanders claiming that the inquiry is a witch hunt is not news, yet our failed media – in their pathetic desperation for breaking news – places irrelevant drivel like that on an equal footing.
MattF
@Kay: I guess the next step is to arrest anyone who disagrees.
MattF
@jl: You’d think that someone around here knows about subscripts and the summation convention.
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
I had thought about the “strangling with the sling” aspect, too. The main thing she’s demonstrating is white privilege, but I don’t think she’s emotionally capable of recognizing the concept even exists.
Mary G
Reuters Exclusive: Manafort’s former son-in-law cuts plea deal, to cooperate with government: sources
We’re going to need a bigger federal prison pretty soon.
Yarrow
@Corner Stone: I’ve decided he’s at best a useful idiot. I just can’t with him anymore. Too much Sage of the Small White State. Maybe if I’m at the gym and his show is on I’ll glance at it. Otherwise, no.
JPL
Manafort’s former SIL cut a plea deal with the justice department.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort-exclusive/exclusive-manaforts-former-son-in-law-cuts-plea-deal-to-cooperate-with-government-sources-idUSKCN1II2YM
edit .. Mary posted it above, but the legal eagles need to weigh in.
jacy
@TenguPhule:
It’s Shemps all the way down.
catclub
@Barbara: I think you are pretty much right. But I don’t think she even says this. I also don’t think she is calling for gunning down National Guard troops.
feebog
@MattF:
Robert Mueller: “hold my beer”.
jl
@MattF:
Sorry, I meant ‘Rudies’, not ‘Rudy’s’. Or is it ‘Rudys’? F if I know.
Kay
@MattF:
Well, Guiliani lied about who told who what, but why is he saying this at all? Their position prior to this has been there isn’t anything to indict the President on. Now there is?
I wouldn’t find this real comforting if I were a Trumpster. “Luckily, we have this opinion that says you can’t be indicted!” That counts as good news in the Trump Administration?
catclub
@MattF:
pick me, pick me. Einstein notation.
jl
@Yarrow: Wiki says Painter recently switched to Farmer-Labor and is running under that party, which in MN I think means Democrat
Barbara
@trollhattan: That’s a serious commitment to punctuality.
Kay
@Mary G:
I’m humane so I think they should get tennis courts and a library. I’m okay with Club Fed.
But only after state prisons get them. For everyone. And they have to pay for it.
Van Buren
@trollhattan: Now that, my friends, is 11 dimension chess being played at Grandmaster level.
Roger Moore
@Patricia Kayden:
Very hard. It’s always hard for somebody claiming to be relaying the truth straight from God to admit they were wrong, even when it’s obvious to everyone. See the Catholic Church’s positions on contraception and abortion.
Brachiator
@MattF:
I agree that this is bad. And compounded by Trump totally demolishing the fantasy that a person elected president accepts the deep burdens of the office and tries to elevate himself or herself. Trump, by contrast, sees his election as the ultimate vindication of every nasty impulse he has ever had.
Baud
@Mary G:
We could turn some Trump Towers into prisons.
Barbara
@Brachiator: I am sure the Central Park 5 are trying to move forward in their lives but his continuing public statements that they were guilty are actionable. I would seriously consider suing Trump. They were exonerated and he still accuses them of having committed a crime.
Corner Stone
God damn it.
Amir Khalid
@Brachiator:
Well, flaunting those nasty impulses did get him elected.
Yarrow
@MattF:
The Central Park Five thing is a tangible example of his horrific racism and disregard for the law and justice. Knowing what he said and did there, we can only imagine things that haven’t made headlines. He’s just an awful person.
As bad as it is, I think him selling out the country to Russia and all the destruction of the country he’s doing as president are worse. It’s like the Central Park Five thing was a preview of the horror he’d bring as president.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
I think all prisoners deserve humane treatment. It’s part of what separates decent people from authoritarian thugs.
Yarrow
@Corner Stone: Like I said, useful idiot.
Chyron HR
@TenguPhule:
Like, does she understand that outside of her family people don’t immediately equate “animal” with “string it up, throw rocks at it, and set it on fire?”
Uncle Cosmo
@Adam L Silverman: We have Julie-Annie the crossdresser malgre lui lu-eye, Ghouliani the Walking Dead-from-the-neck-up, and Goombahliani, Murka’s favorite wise-guy-full-of-whizzdumb…any others lurking under slimy rocks?
Libraryguy
Help?
Hi all, just a quick bleg to ask for some emergency financial assistance due to a well-meaning but absentee landlord’s screw-up! It’s Woodstock Reveries, and the site is here
If anyone can help, it would make a world of difference. 3 Juicers have already generously helped with almost $100 in orders (thank you!), but we need about $400 more by the weekend.
Thanks for your patience, and all the support you’ve already sent our way.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@trollhattan:
Which of course ignores the historical context that event occurred in. People didn’t own semi-automatic assault rifles then. And if some armed student decided to retaliate it would have been even more of a bloodbath then it already was.
TenguPhule
@MattF:
They’ve already had trial runs of this.
Patricia Kayden
@Corner Stone: There is no context which can justify Trump’s animal comments. Keep in mind that Trump has never referred to the Neo Nazis who killed a protester in Charlottesville as animals. He couldn’t even bring himself to condemn David Duke. Trump’s animal comments play into his base’s racism. That’s all that matters to him.
debbie
Thanks for the summary, Adam, I was getting totally lost.
Also, I’ve seen Godfather more than a few times, and I don’t remember that dialog.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Corner Stone:
What possible added context could ever make what Trump said ok, Chris?
I don’t even know what was said, but I don’t need to. I’ve seen this asshole (Trump) in action for nearly 3 years now.
ETA: Oh, it was the “animals” rant. What the fuck is wrong with Hayes?
TenguPhule
@Chyron HR:
Is that a rhetorical question?
J R in WV
And with all the information Adam presents up above about Rudy Giuliani’s mis-statements, not to say falsehoods, CNN is going with Wolf and his moll telling us that Trump CANNOT be indicted, period.
There is no method to send them a correction, informing them about the actual DOJ policy documents, no way of asking if they ever requested a copy of the actual policy from the DOJ, nothing! Surely they have never read the policy doc with a lawyer explaining it to them…
They are in a race to the bottom with Faux, with no limits to their bounding assholeiness. They are sucking Trump 24/7 in hopes of maintaining their non-existent access, in hopes that Trump will renounce his Fale News hatred of CNN, which we all know will never happen, no matter how favorable their news about Trump really is.
Despicable! Glad I can’t watch the cable news show and see advertisements!!! wait, how will I know whom to boycott????
Patricia Kayden
@Roger Moore: The Southern Baptists (who are still odious, btw) apologized for their racist past. It’s not that hard. Just apologize and admit that you were wrong and move on.
Kay
I had a nice man call me at work and (really nervous) tell me he wants to volunteer for the D House candidate here – which is the longest of long shots. He’s never done anything before but he’s an anti-Trumper. I was trying to put him at ease so I made a joke about how no one is in charge -true- but that seemed to insult him a little so stopped clowning around and told him he could help, well, me. Or I could help him. It’s kind of sad how people think this is a real organization that they have to get into, when really I spend most of my time trying not to spook them so they don’t bolt and run away.
This is his candidate. He doesn’t seem particularly exciting to me and I actually voted for his opponent in the primary (Neu) but he inspired this one person to do something, at least, so that’s nice. I do see quite a few of his signs around.
Citizen Alan
@trollhattan:
Is this stupid bint seriously suggesting that Kent state would have gone better for everyone if the protesters had been armed and returned fire against the National Guard?
Brachiator
@Yarrow:
But the thing is, we don’t have to imagine. We can see what he is doing to people now. We can see what his Justice Department is doing now. We can see what ICE agents are doing now. We can see how he is reshaping immigration policy to discriminate against nonwhite people now.
He is a racist resurrecting American Apartheid.
It’s all bad. Trump is the foreign and domestic evil that we must defeat.
Baud
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
@Citizen Alan:
“The hippies should shoot back” is not a position I usually associate with gun lovers.
Uncle Cosmo
@Brachiator: Someone oughta whisper in his ear, Urine the running for the IgNobel Piss Prize, no kidneying!
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Brachiator:
Couldn’t people organize to stop things like ICE?
Yarrow
@Brachiator: My point was, there are plenty of things he has done that we don’t know about. The unknown people he has hurt through the decades. We know about the ICE stuff. It’s horrible. What don’t we know?
One thing that will come out is the girls he has hurt. The young girls. Horrible.
J R in WV
@Chyron HR:
So good! No, probably not.
Corner Stone
@Citizen Alan:
Anyone who does not think this person would have joined up with the Guard to shoot the hippies is fooling themselves.
MisterForkbeard
@Corner Stone: Is this going to end up being “I know Trump was extremely racist, but recently a mexican man hadn’t bowed when Trump came in the room” or “Trump said some incredibly sexist things to that woman, but it’s important to remember the context that she was very attractive.”
Circumstances don’t make bigotry any better. They can explain but not justify.
trollhattan
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: @Citizen Alan:
I’m guessing she doesn’t know one of the Kent State dead was an R.O.T.C. student but regardless, she’s trying to make herself the target [heh] of an unfair gummint confiscation of her Precious and is essentially taunting them (who, exactly?) to come get it whilst she’s on campus, protected by thousands of living students and four ghosts.
It is not impossible she developed an ether addiction while earning her bio degree.
Uncle Cosmo
@Mary G: Build it out at L5, blast all the Trumpanzees out there & tell them they can either stir their own shit to feed the algae that make the air they breathe, or asphyxiate.
Baud
This sucks.
McClatchy.
Corner Stone
The video at this tweet needs to be embedded.
Uncle Cosmo
FTR, Adam –
– it’s mafioso. Mafiosi is plural. /pedantissimo
Roger Moore
@Patricia Kayden:
The Baptists aren’t perfectly comparable to the Mormons. The Baptists are very up-front that they get their ideas from reading and interpreting the Bible. The Bible is naturally authoritative, but since it requires interpretation any given reading of it can always be abandoned as a result of fallible humans misreading God’s word. In contrast, the Mormons believe their prophet is actually directly in touch with God, so there’s much less wriggle room when it comes time to make up excuses for changing your mind. I suppose they can always claim that God has changed his mind, but that is a lot harder to sell than “those guys 100 years ago misread God’s word”.
Amir Khalid
A pox on Donald Trump, that walking insult to No. It is Ramadhan and I should not be saying harsh things. Let me say instead that it would serve America best if he got some of what Najib just got.
MisterForkbeard
@Libraryguy: What actually happened there? Your landlord forgot to pay your mortgage?
I don’t actually need anything from your store (we’re cutting down on ‘stuff’ in general), but I’m happy to throw a bit of money your way if you guys are in trouble. Do you have a paypal donation link or an email I can just send a bit of cash to?
rikyrah
@LAO:
JOHN ? CRAWFORD ? BYTCH ?
MisterForkbeard
@Corner Stone: So… if KJU doesn’t make a deal, we’ll start a war. We also won’t accept any deal that KJU might find acceptable.
Good to know. Gonna go dig that fallout shelter this weekend.
Baud
@MisterForkbeard:
You realize we didn’t actually start the Libyan war? The “Libyan model” threat is all kinds of stupid.
Bill Arnold
Just because this is the sort of thing the US press should be uncompromising about, The Forward:
Aaron Schlossberg Calls Stranger An ‘Ugly F—king Foreigner’ In New Video
rikyrah
@Mary G:
Tee hee hee ?
Mandalay
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
A good question. Just 24 hours ago he tweeted this before he suddenly found the need to be fair and balanced:
I think Trump must have kidnapped his wife.
Corner Stone
@rikyrah: At first I was like, “Yeah, Joan Crawford was universally recognized to be a bitch. But what does that…ohhhh.”
Uncle Cosmo
@Roger Moore: Paul VI’s birth control encyclical Humanae Vitae was not issued ex cathedra, i.e., “from the throne [of Peter]”, & therefore does not invoke the doctrine of papal infallibility. Even the former Cardinal Montini recognized that (as Oliver Cromwell so pithily put it to the Church of Scotland) “in the bowels of Christ”, he might be wrong.
Which BTW is the closest I’ve come to defending anything that the One Holy Caltholic & Apostolic Church (OHCAC) did from the death of Simon Peter to the resignation of Benedict-Arnold XVI…
ruemara
@catclub: Let’s never ask why people don’t see something obvious yet awful.
Mandalay
@Corner Stone: That may be my favorite Trump video ever. He is completely clueless on what the “Libya model” is, and seems to believe that it was Gaddafi getting kidnapped, sodomized and killed.
This afternoon Bolton must be screaming at everyone he sees that Trump is a fucking moron, while everyone is Seoul is shitting their pants.
Nice work Mr. President.
Millard Filmore
@Corner Stone:
If you accept the proposition that some people are animals, then the anti-abortion argument about the sanctity of all unborn human life goes out the window.
Uncle Cosmo
@Kay: For some reason this reminds me of a scene in last night’s episode of The Expanse:
Kay, you may not be that person, but TenguPhule ain’t the only jackal who is.
(BTW anyone who isn’t following The Expanse is missing outstanding SF that IMO blows your basic stupidhero movie out of the water.)
Brachiator
@Yarrow:
He is president of the United States and trying to enact overtly racist laws. His public utterances energize racists and cause them to act out, putting people in danger. He has given his Justice Department and Homeland Security Department permission to interpret law and federal procedure in ways that deprive people of their civil and human rights.
How is speculation about “what we don’t know” about his racist thoughts and dreams and past actions of value?
Trump is a bad human being. But Trump the bad president is can hurt far more people. And he can do it legally.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
She would have happily cheered the Guard for shooting people and defended their actions, but she’s probably too chicken shit to shoot anyone herself.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: This is my problem with the ‘jungle primary’.
Origuy
@Adam L Silverman:
Dare I hope it’s in an upper-story room with a window?
Roger Moore
@Origuy:
Haven’t there been enough defenestrations already?
bookeater (formerly JosieJ)
So she’s basically implying that more bullets flying around would have improved that situation?
MisterForkbeard
@Baud: Oh, I know. But Trump doesn’t, so we’re working off what HIS understanding is.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: I would be willing to accept another one if it is Davis and Bannon.
Adam L Silverman
@Shana: Don’t recall the name of the episode, but here’s a bit of a reference:
http://monkeetv.blogspot.com/2013/01/danny-kaye-connection.html
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: This was the best reply to that tweet!
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: What the hell are you going to do with 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester on campus? Do they have a moose problem at Kent State? Bison? I’m willing to entertain a conceal carry argument, but that means a concealed handgun. This is just stupid.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Everyone knows about the wild boar infestation just east of Akron.
Roger Moore
@bookeater (formerly JosieJ):
That seems to be the default NRA position on any situation*; more guns is guaranteed to result in a better outcome.
*At least for white people.
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
She admits she only went with the long gun to make a point, and that a concealed handgun would be more sensible for everyday carry. And I guess she didn’t think she needed to guard her back because she had a photographer with her, but the whole thing is just stupid from top to bottom.
Adam L Silverman
@Uncle Cosmo: Pure typo. Thanks. I’ll fix it.
Another Scott
@Libraryguy: I’m getting an “Internal Server Error” on your site once I try to pay. It seems to be having trouble handing off to the PayPal server.
:-(
I hope it’s easy to fix, and I hope you’re able to get through this rough patch!
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Another Scott: Checkout worked now. All done. Hope it helps. Looking forward to the goodies!
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Kay: You convinced me!! ;-) Tell your new friend that you’re a big-time party fundraiser. I sent him some money.
My mom’s family is from that district.
Even if he doesn’t win this time, putting up a good fight makes the next time easier.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
toschek
@Uncle Cosmo:
Trump has never run anywhere, not once in his fat, privileged little life.