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You are here: Home / Absent Friends / Anthony Bourdain Dead, RIP

Anthony Bourdain Dead, RIP

by Alain Chamot (1971-2020)|  June 8, 20188:04 am| 181 Comments

This post is in: Absent Friends, Cooking, Make The World A Better Place, Ugh

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Depression is a horrible thing. Apparently, he committed suicide in France. He was a great chef, communicator, and shared the glory that is human culinary ingenuity and tradition. He will be missed.

 

Folks, don’t ever let your depression make you ignore this wonderful community of jackals and pet lovers. We will help you, hold, and lift you, just reach out.

I’ll  update with links soon and suicide prevention information.

 

The National Suicide Prevention 24 Hour Hotline is (800) 273-8255

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

 

You can also text HOME to the Crisis Text Line at 741741. People are standing by, ready to help without judgement.

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Reader Interactions

181Comments

  1. 1.

    Elizabelle

    June 8, 2018 at 8:07 am

    I was guessing it was hanging.

    Method of choice in a bunch of recent prominent suicides. Kate Spade, Chris Cornell, L’Wren Scott (designer and Mick Jagger’s girlfriend).

    Especially odd since he is/was dating Asia Argento, right, and her battle with Harvey Weinstein is not over. Figured he would want to stick around for the incarceration.

  2. 2.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 8, 2018 at 8:08 am

    May he R.I.P.

  3. 3.

    Spanky

    June 8, 2018 at 8:08 am

    What Alain said. We know there have been folks who have made comments here about considering ending their lives, and I hope you’re all still here, somewhere, some of the time.

    Depression’s a hell of a thing.

  4. 4.

    Alain the site fixer

    June 8, 2018 at 8:10 am

    Sorry for so many typos. I’m quite upset, he was a hero, smug though he may have been.

  5. 5.

    Monkeyfister

    June 8, 2018 at 8:11 am

    Speaking from experience, it DOES get better. I owe Cole, and some ‘Juicers I’ve never even met a world of thanks. Two and a half years ago, I was close…
    >>>>> If you or someone you know may be considering suicide, contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 (En Español: 1-888-628-9454; Deaf and Hard of Hearing: 1-800-799-4889) or the Crisis Text Line by texting 741741.

  6. 6.

    Elizabelle

    June 8, 2018 at 8:12 am

    @Alain the site fixer: My condolences for losing a hero, then.

  7. 7.

    Bruuuuce

    June 8, 2018 at 8:13 am

    Bollocks. Requiescat, sir, and thanks.

  8. 8.

    rikyrah

    June 8, 2018 at 8:14 am

    RIP ?

  9. 9.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    June 8, 2018 at 8:15 am

    There’s a general feeling right now that things are not OK, and that they aren’t going to be made right anytime soon, if ever.

    If you’ve got some tendency toward depression, that will be exacerbated.

    Also, for someone like Bourdain, whose entire life has been focused on food, engagement, friendliness and exploration, current events could have made him believe that his efforts, no matter how noble, have been pointless, and how he doesn’t want to face a world thoroughly in the thrall of ignorance and cruelty.

  10. 10.

    Spanky

    June 8, 2018 at 8:15 am

    This from yesterday’s WaPo:

    Suicide rates rise sharply across the United States, new report shows

  11. 11.

    Alain the site fixer

    June 8, 2018 at 8:17 am

    @Elizabelle: thanks, it’s weird losing a hero out of the blue like this. His legacy for me is travel, questions, good food, good company, and good cheer.

  12. 12.

    Alain the site fixer

    June 8, 2018 at 8:18 am

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: your last paragraph details how I feel at times but I won’t let the bastards win. With my last breath I’ll fight them and speak the truth.

  13. 13.

    leeleeFL

    June 8, 2018 at 8:19 am

    Damnit all to hell! I liked Bourdain. He was sassy, but not psycho! Hard to believe he didn’t, or couldn’t, get enough help to stop him ending his sadness this way. Kate Spade as well. How can things be so awful you can’t stay for your 13 year-old Daughter? She will be scarred forever by this! I am crying, and I don’t even know these people!

  14. 14.

    Spanky

    June 8, 2018 at 8:20 am

    @Spanky: From the article:

    Among the stark numbers in the CDC report was the one signaling a high number of suicides among people with no diagnosed mental health condition. In the 27 states that use the National Violent Death Reporting System, 54 percent of suicides fell into this category.

    But Joshua Gordon, director of the National Institute of Mental Health, said that statistic must be viewed in context.

    “When you do a psychological autopsy and go and look carefully at medical records and talk to family members of the victims,” he said, “90 percent will have evidence of a mental health condition.” That indicates a large portion weren’t diagnosed, “which suggests to me that they’re not getting the help they need,” he said.

    Listen to @Monkeyfister: , people.

  15. 15.

    blackcatsrule

    June 8, 2018 at 8:20 am

    @Alain the site fixer: I’m also extremely upset by this. He just seemed full of joy…for food, travel, his family, life itself. Horrible news.

  16. 16.

    JPL

    June 8, 2018 at 8:20 am

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: He fought demons in the past, and I guess he couldn’t fight this last one. I saw your comment about the table in Vietnam. If I had unlimited wealth, I’d offer them a figure they couldn’t refuse for just the chair he sat at.

  17. 17.

    JPL

    June 8, 2018 at 8:22 am

    The one thing that artists leave behind is their works.

  18. 18.

    Elizabelle

    June 8, 2018 at 8:23 am

    I guess the thing about suicide: I’m told it’s an impulse. Some days you can fight it; some days you cannot. A lot of suicide survivors are glad they did not succeed there.

    Tragic.

  19. 19.

    blackcatsrule

    June 8, 2018 at 8:24 am

    @Spanky: Of course they’re not getting diagnosed or the help they need…look at what passes for health care in this country…and for mental health it is far far worse. Add in the fact that depression makes it so hard to get out there and get the help you need even when you have the money, time, access…

  20. 20.

    Nora Carrington

    June 8, 2018 at 8:25 am

    Most folks I know believe that other folks — including themselves — ought to be allowed to end their lives in the face of a terminal illness. I think for some people depression is a terminal illness. I don’t think dying is the worst thing that can happen to a person. It’s a selfish, selfish choice, but I refuse to pollyanna BS fairy dance about drugs and talk and reaching out. We are, at bottom, alone in our own skins. No one ever, ever knows what it’s like to live there except the person who does. There’s an epidemic of suicide right now in the US. I’m [mostly] unwilling to grant that Americans are more homicidal by nature; I believe our obscene levels of gun death are due to the ready availability of guns and not the individual personal failings of shooters or victims. I’m equally unwilling to attribute to individual pathology or illness the choice to end one’s life. Each case is different; taken in toto the numbers are a condemnation of our culture, our economy, and our politics. Despair is an obvious reaction to watching a democracy die. I will not say that anyone who doesn’t want to live with that anymore is wrong.

  21. 21.

    sa

    June 8, 2018 at 8:25 am

    @Monkeyfister: Glad that you felt enough support from jackals to push yourself past the despair.

  22. 22.

    satby

    June 8, 2018 at 8:25 am

    @Monkeyfister: Glad that you felt enough support from jackals to push yourself past the despair.

  23. 23.

    JR

    June 8, 2018 at 8:26 am

    Dude has a 10 year old daughter. Was just wondering why the AV Club reposted his interview from last year.

  24. 24.

    Alain the site fixer

    June 8, 2018 at 8:27 am

    @Elizabelle: that’s why guns are so horrible. It’s a lot tougher to kill yourself using other methods, but guns are quick, easy, and effective.

  25. 25.

    randy khan

    June 8, 2018 at 8:27 am

    Nuts.

    I was just talking about him at dinner last night. I’ll always remember the episode of his show that was filmed in the midst of a spasm of violence in Lebanon. He was in a group of Americans who were moved to a hotel prior to being evacuated. He was going stir crazy, so finally he somehow got into the kitchen and started cooking for everybody.

    R.I.P.

  26. 26.

    RedDirtGirl

    June 8, 2018 at 8:30 am

    A dear friend’s husband killed himself last fall, leaving her behind with two teen children. One of the saddest things is that from his notes to them, he truly believed he was saving his family from the shame that his depression and anxiety had convinced him he was bringing upon them.

  27. 27.

    Bruuuuce

    June 8, 2018 at 8:31 am

    Alain: Via the Book of Faces, this: “You can also text HOME to the Crisis Text Line at 741741. People are standing by, ready to help without judgement.”

  28. 28.

    satby

    June 8, 2018 at 8:32 am

    @Elizabelle: What you’ve been told is accurate and how we were trained when I volunteered for a crisis hotline back in the 70s. Try to help people get past that impulse and to seek the help they need (or get enough info to send first responders, hopefully in time).

  29. 29.

    geg6

    June 8, 2018 at 8:35 am

    This is depressing. I know a lot of people weren’t Bourdain fans, but I loved Tony. He was totally my kind of guy and I am just stunned at this.

    I read where his very good friend Eric Ripert was with him in France and they were filming for his show. Apparently, it was Ripert who found him. I am sure he is beside himself. And his poor daughter. Damn it, Tony. Awful.

  30. 30.

    rikyrah

    June 8, 2018 at 8:36 am

    I agree with this tweet

    https://twitter.com/tomwatson/status/1005055204650291203?s=19 b

  31. 31.

    Gex mobile

    June 8, 2018 at 8:36 am

    When I was at my lowest (after my partner died), there was a troll here that hounded me off the site (I haven’t really participated as much since). Yeah I guess I could come here for support. But I got targeted by the jerk each time. No ban hammer either.

  32. 32.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    June 8, 2018 at 8:37 am

    @randy khan:

    I was just thinking about that episode, and how it turned into an amazing conflict piece that our journalists just can’t seem to be able to do anymore.

    I think it worked because he was not from the world of journalism, and came out as a raw and unpredictable piece of beauty.

  33. 33.

    wanderingoutlaw

    June 8, 2018 at 8:37 am

    I didn’t realize he died by suicide. (I haven’t read more than the headlines so far.) Depression does suck.

  34. 34.

    Skinny Ankles

    June 8, 2018 at 8:37 am

    Depression is hell and requires more than just yourself to conquer and manage. It really fs with you because reality can be one thing and what is going on in your head is the polar opposite.

    All I can say from my own experience, and I’ve been battling depression since I was 14, is don’t be afraid to speak up and reach out. Help is out there.

  35. 35.

    Soprano2

    June 8, 2018 at 8:41 am

    My mother told me that when she and my father were in the midst of their divorce (due to his infidelity) the only thing that kept her from killing herself some days was knowing that my sister and I needed her to be around. She said she looked at guns in pawn shops! This week has been so, so sad. I can understand despair, but it’s hard to understand a mother leaving her young daughter motherless. When it’s someone older I always wonder if there is a health issue we don’t know about.

  36. 36.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 8:41 am

    @Alain the site fixer: This is hitting me kinda hard this morning. A hero of mine too. I felt like I knew him. Unrelated, someone should put up a separate post re Trump’s babbling right now before he gets on the helicopter. He’s “thinking about Muhammad Ali.”

  37. 37.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 8:42 am

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: nailed it.

  38. 38.

    JPL

    June 8, 2018 at 8:43 am

    @Nora Carrington: I understand some of your points, and for myself it’s because of the despair that I feel for our democracy, that Bourdain’s death hit me hard. His joy of food, companionship and travel brought happiness for me.

    On another note, I’m streaming CNN and the asshole is ranting and raving. fkfkfkfkkfkkfkfkfkfkfkf

  39. 39.

    satby

    June 8, 2018 at 8:45 am

    @Gex mobile: I remember a bit of that. I’m sorry that happened, and I think that particular troll is gone. I think the ban hammer is used slightly more now, though I know JC can be reluctant to apply it.

  40. 40.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 8:48 am

    @JPL: I’m watching MSNBC… This Trump rant is more out of control than usual. “Dennis Rodman wasn’t that tall.” Did you catch that? This needs a separate thread. He’s a madman. 20 minute rant.

  41. 41.

    Mai naem mobile

    June 8, 2018 at 8:48 am

    I enjoyed watching Bourdains show. He reminded me of Americans you would see on teevee during the 70s who weren’t scared 9f foreigners. I am really surprised about the depression. Guess you really don’t know what demons one is fighting.

  42. 42.

    Phylllis

    June 8, 2018 at 8:49 am

    If you are interested in learning more about how to recognize when someone near you is struggling, I highly recommend Mental Health First Aid training and Youth Mental Health First Aid training. Good, practical, actionable information for anyone to use to help with friends, family, or anyone else you know that is having difficulties.

  43. 43.

    leeleeFL

    June 8, 2018 at 8:49 am

    @rikyrah: This is spot-on!

  44. 44.

    Mai naem mobile

    June 8, 2018 at 8:51 am

    @Quinerly: I was watching CNBC and Joe Kernen and Kevin McCarthy couldn’t stop slobbering over Trumpov . Had to turn it off. Made me sick.

  45. 45.

    satby

    June 8, 2018 at 8:53 am

    @Nora Carrington:

    It’s a selfish, selfish choice,

    I will disagree here. It certainly feels like a selfish choice to the surviving family and friends, but a suicidal person isn’t directing their suicide against anyone but their own selves. In many cases, they feel like their death will spare their family the misery of dealing with them and their issues. It’s a heartbreaking choice, not a selfish one, because the inner feelings of worthlessness are so overwhelming and usually so erroneous.

  46. 46.

    Elizabelle

    June 8, 2018 at 8:54 am

    1999 Bourdain article in The New Yorker; he apparently expanded it into “Kitchen Confidential.”

    Don’t Eat Before Reading This.

  47. 47.

    Feathers

    June 8, 2018 at 8:55 am

    Please edit or delete this post immediately. It does not meet the CDC guidelines for reporting on suicide in a manner that does not lead to more contagion suicides.

    Would link but bad connectivity.

  48. 48.

    Raven

    June 8, 2018 at 8:59 am

    Amazon.com Review
    In 1985 William Styron fell victim to a crippling and almost suicidal depression, the same illness that took the lives of , and . That Styron survived his descent into madness is something of a miracle. That he manages to convey its tortuous progression and his eventual recovery with such candor and precision makes Darkness Visible a rare feat of literature, a book that will arouse a shock of recognition even in those readers who have been spared the suffering it describes.

  49. 49.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 9:00 am

    @Mai naem mobile: we need a thread about Trump ranting over Russia should be allowed back in the G7. Russia was kicked out of the G8 for annexing Crimea. Everyone must watch what just happened, in my opinion. I must step away from all this today for my own wellbeing. I have never hated someone so much.

  50. 50.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 9:01 am

    @satby: sweet satby, I agree 100% with you.

  51. 51.

    Alain the site fixer

    June 8, 2018 at 9:04 am

    @Feathers: We don’t report, we share and discuss. That said, I’m happy to adjust some wording, so please drop some info in when you’ve got better connectivity. As for me, I’ve got to be away from computer for the next few hours.

  52. 52.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    June 8, 2018 at 9:07 am

    @Quinerly:

    Pardoning a dead black guy who can’t vote will surely move the needle…

  53. 53.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 8, 2018 at 9:07 am

    @Quinerly: WaPo bulletin on my phone says “after it was expelled for its role in Crimean crisis.” What fucking bullshit. Their headline writers don’t know how to spell “invasion”? Its “role” in the “crisis”??

  54. 54.

    lurker dean

    June 8, 2018 at 9:10 am

    he was one of my favorite people :( this tweet captures just one or many aspects of his show i liked.

    Anthony Bourdain had one of the only shows on tv that tried with all its might to teach Americans not to be scared of other people.— Allison F.? (@ablington) June 8, 2018

  55. 55.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 9:11 am

    @rikyrah: unrelated but I’m running from today’s news screaming so can’t wait for an appropriate thread or an OT. Add this to your list of what Black people can’t do… shop at Victoria’s Secret. http://wreg.com/2018/06/07/woman-says-she-was-racially-profiled-at-victorias-secret-in-collierville/

  56. 56.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 9:12 am

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: looks like the Supreme Court took care of this issue years ago.

  57. 57.

    Jellie

    June 8, 2018 at 9:13 am

    Pardon me for making my first post a scold, but please, please don’t discuss/describe the method of a suicide. It appears to contribute to copycat suicide. See ReportingOnSuicide.org for guidelines. Thank you.

  58. 58.

    Al Z.

    June 8, 2018 at 9:21 am

    Jesus Christ I’m going through a major episode. Not what I need to hear about today.

  59. 59.

    pamelabrown53

    June 8, 2018 at 9:22 am

    @rikyrah:

    Thanks rikyrah for the link to Tom Watson’s tweet. Brought tears to my eyes.

  60. 60.

    Immanentize

    June 8, 2018 at 9:25 am

    There are many versions of the three questions about suicide, but the one I learned was:
    1). In the last week, have you thought about killing yourself?
    2). Do you have a plan of how you would do that?
    3). Have you acquired the things (pills, gun, etc.) to accomplish the plan?

    These are the general suicide prevention hotline questions one seeks answers to in order to understand how serious the threat is right then.

    Also, although both Kate Spade and Anthony hung themselves, remember that in over half the suicides in the US are gun suicides. It is the guns, because if you own one, you always have the means to carry out a plan, no matter how quickly and hastily conceived.

  61. 61.

    Monkeyfister

    June 8, 2018 at 9:32 am

    @sa: Come to find out that Juicer jackals are some of the bestest, biggest-hearted jackals in the whole world.
    Comments sections on BJ were probably the very last place I’d ever think to turn to to feel good about life. I sure am glad to have been proven wrong.

    *I don’t recommend it for everyone, but it worked for me.

  62. 62.

    A. J.

    June 8, 2018 at 9:38 am

    Very sad to hear this. Love you all. Doing much better from my brutal depression of March.

  63. 63.

    MomSense

    June 8, 2018 at 9:39 am

    @Alain the site fixer:

    “There is no lying in the kitchen and no god”

    One of my favorite Bourdain quotes. Depression is a ruthless liar. It’s such an insidious illness and it unfortunately takes so many creative, artistic people.

  64. 64.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 9:40 am

    @Spanky:

    Suicide rates rise sharply across the United States, new report shows

    Lots to impact in these statistics. Odd that the increase has been since 1999. And a big increase among middle aged adults, and in rural states.

  65. 65.

    e julius drivingstorm

    June 8, 2018 at 9:43 am

    The amazing lyrics to his amazing 40 second theme song are more poignant than ever. He felt the rain getting colder:

    https://youtu.be/C-g3AabqoE8

  66. 66.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 8, 2018 at 9:44 am

    Ugh, what a thing to wake up to. Came straight here to comment. How awful. Just goes to show, you just never know…

    I liked him. RIP.

  67. 67.

    Nicole

    June 8, 2018 at 9:45 am

    I wish we, as a society, could start to understand mental illness the way we now understand cancer- it’s not one disease; it’s a blanket term for thousands of different diseases, all of which have different treatments and different prognoses. And it’s a unique journey for each person who has it. For some, it’s a minor bump, and for others, it’s fatal. Sometimes quickly, sometimes over decades. Sometimes it’s a serious, recurring condition but the person still ends up shuffling off this mortal coil due to some other cause. But it would never occur to any of us to call someone who died of cancer, “selfish” or to say that they should have fought against it harder, for the sake of their family. The brain is an organ. It’s an organ smart enough to have named itself, but it’s still just an organ. And organs can develop problems.

    We understand now that the prognosis with (some) cancer is better the earlier it can be detected, and so it’s on us to put the same kind of money and research into mental illness. But as long as we look at it as something that believing you’re loved enough, or whatever, can fix, we’ll keep lagging behind where we should be in learning how to treat mental illness. And we won’t be able to help everyone. But a shift in how we view mental illness would be a help.

    Back in the early 1980s, when my mom was dying of breast cancer (in her 30s, an age women weren’t supposed to get breast cancer), two neighborhood girls wanted to start a collection to help out our family. My mom turned them down, because she was embarrassed about having cancer. It wasn’t something you talked about. I can’t fathom how she’d have responded to the way we talk about it today. It would be good to see mental illness make the same journey in public perception.

  68. 68.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 9:48 am

    @Nora Carrington:

    It’s a selfish, selfish choice

    This is idiotic. But a common stupid opinion, second only to the scolding of some religions that suicide is a sin.

  69. 69.

    jacy

    June 8, 2018 at 9:50 am

    At my lowest, the one thought that kept me from harming myself was the thought of leaving my youngest child with my ex, and that was a near thing a couple of times. I haven’t been doing well just lately, and my gp has diagnosed bipolar 2 because I”m in a trough right now, I think due to an upcoming custody fight that I really can’t afford. Even knowing what my diagnosis is, taking medication, having support, and knowing that it does get better — when the hopelessness hits, it’s wipes that all out.

  70. 70.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 8, 2018 at 9:51 am

    Damn. The abyss claims another.

    “Don’t look at the lights.”

  71. 71.

    patrick II

    June 8, 2018 at 9:51 am

    More than any other person, I have fantasized about living Anthony Bourdain’s life. Being paid to travel, eat at some of the most interesting establishments in the world (from a single table stall, to friend’s homes, to legendary restaurants) while having conversations with many interesting people, from people with local knowledge and color on up to President Obama (while in Indonesia), and making smart ass comments while doing so just seemed to be such a pleasant way to live. I am surprised and saddened.

  72. 72.

    Feathers

    June 8, 2018 at 9:52 am

    @Alain the site fixer: One of the main rules is to never include the method in a story, report, or “sharing” of a suicide. It increases ideation. Suicide is highly contagious and giving focus and specificity to a reader/listener’s ideation can be deadly. Especially since this is now the second newsworthy suicide this week to use a particular method. Calling this post “sharing” doesn’t absolve you of responsibility to those who will read it.

    Link to guidelines: Suicide Contagion and the Reporting of Suicide: Recommendations from a National Workshop

    Suicide is truly an impulse that happens on a very, very bad day occurring in a series of very bad days. 24% of suicide attempts occur within five minutes of ideation, nearly 75% in under an hour. Not triggering people on the edge is vitally important, as is removal of swift/easy methods. Duration of Suicidal Crises

    @Nora Carrington: Calling those who commit suicide selfish only increases the stigma, which makes it harder for people who are having suicidal ideations to come forward to those around them. One of the main danger signs that someone is potentially suicidal is that they begin to see themselves as a burden to those around them. Calling them “selfish” only increases the shame and silences those who need to be able to reach out for support. This attitude is ugly, ugly, ugly and deeply narcissistic. It needs to stop. Now.

  73. 73.

    GregB

    June 8, 2018 at 9:54 am

    These are grim times. Who know what drove him to this stark final act. Sad for his family.

    In related news the younger brother of a high school friend died from drugs.

    The dismal tide is washing over us.

  74. 74.

    Heidi Mom

    June 8, 2018 at 9:54 am

    Very kind and thoughtful words, Alain. Thank you.

  75. 75.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 9:56 am

    @Brachiator: agree with you 100%.

  76. 76.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 8, 2018 at 10:02 am

    @patrick II: Me too. I loved his old Discovery Channel show or was it the Travel channel? I haven’t seen too many of his newer CNN shows.
    @Feathers: That entire comment is problematic. Also, I have never seen this handle before.

  77. 77.

    r€nato

    June 8, 2018 at 10:02 am

    shoulda been Trump.

  78. 78.

    sacrablue

    June 8, 2018 at 10:02 am

    I’m not really sure why, but Bourdain’s death has really rattled me. I have felt a weird connection to him for several years, maybe because we both spent summers “down the shore”, his passion for global experience, love of food, his willingness to call out buffoons, so called experts, politicians, misogynists in general (Weinstein and Batali in particular), etc. I hope Guilliani and Trump weren’t contributing factors.

  79. 79.

    JPL

    June 8, 2018 at 10:08 am

    @Quinerly: I only heard the no collusion, democrats colluded part before I clicked the off button. He is crazy.

    I just returned from getting a hair cut and a stop at Trader Joe’s. Everyone is talking about Bourdain. Maybe I shouldn’t have been surprised, but a lot of folks loved him.

  80. 80.

    Miss Bianca

    June 8, 2018 at 10:09 am

    @Elizabelle: I loved “Kitchen Confidential”. It’s why I never eat chicken in restaurants anymore. Well, that and the fact that the only times I’ve ever gotten food poisoning, it was from chicken eaten in restaurants. (Thanks, Anthony! No, really!)

    Poor guy. Didn’t follow his show but did appreciate that more people enjoyed better food because of it, and him.

  81. 81.

    JPL

    June 8, 2018 at 10:12 am

    @Quinerly: Years ago I was shopping with a friend in Sak’s and she purchased a few St. John’s suits. We then left and went to a movie together. She returned to pick up her purchases, and they ask if she was picking them up for Mrs. B……. After the matter was resolved, they couldn’t find where they put them. The next day Sak’s delivered them, and she received a call from the store manager. All the calls in the world couldn’t help that one, and she never returned to a Sak’s. Yup she is black.

  82. 82.

    James Powell

    June 8, 2018 at 10:14 am

    When I saw the headline, I assumed he died of natural causes, the wear & tear of living the high life.

    The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.

    David Foster Wallace, who also hung himself.

  83. 83.

    Nicole

    June 8, 2018 at 10:14 am

    Yesterday I watched a documentary on HBO about families with severely emotionally disturbed children. It was really heartbreaking, but what stuck out the most to me was one of the talking heads who said that when we see emotionally disturbed kids we leap to blame the parents, because it lets us feel safe- “My kid doesn’t do that, ergo, I am a good parent.” I think that may motivate some of our reactions to hearing of suicide: “I would never do that to MY family, ergo, I am a good person.” I think we react from fear.

    As Ernest Hemingway, suicide victim himself, said, in A Farewell to Arms:

    “The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry.”

  84. 84.

    p.a.

    June 8, 2018 at 10:15 am

    RIP.

    His shows were (whether consciously or not) a blow against the physical and mental walls some segments of US society are erecting.

  85. 85.

    bemused

    June 8, 2018 at 10:15 am

    Molly Ivins was one of those unique greats who went too soon that I will always miss and sigh, wishing we could be reading her hilarious, no holds barred opinions now. I feel that way about Bourdain, sad we won’t be vicariously with him on his adventures.

  86. 86.

    Alain the site fixer

    June 8, 2018 at 10:21 am

    @Feathers: fixed, thanks

  87. 87.

    Leto

    June 8, 2018 at 10:21 am

    @patrick II: Here’s the Obama/Bourdain article, written by Bourdain: Obama, Bourdain chew the fat in Hanoi

    It’s very interesting seeing the thought process of which dish Bourdain selected, as well as the locale. It’s also interesting seeing the contrast of Obama’s demeanor compared to the current seat warmer. But the part that really stuck out was this:

    The next day, I was suddenly recognizable to the Vietnamese who rode their scooters and motorbikes around me. They’d seen me in the newspapers and again and again would point at me, shouting “Bun cha! Mister Bun Cha!”

    A few young Vietnamese who spoke English approached me and told me, with tears in their eyes, how incredulous they were, how shocked — how proud — that the President of the United States had come to their town and eaten not pho, or spring rolls, which they would have expected — but bun cha.

    Bun cha! It was THEIRS! Their proud local specialty! And Hanoi beer too! They couldn’t get over it. And on a low plastic stool, in the kind of place they always ate.

    The effect was extraordinary. I cannot possibly overstate the warmth with which he was received by the Vietnamese — particularly the young ones — who were not even alive during the war years, for whom America appears a far, far more attractive (and less threatening ) model than China.

    Both of them did their best to show Americans to open their horizons, expand their world view. I hope he’s found the peace he was searching for; R.I.P.

  88. 88.

    JohnO

    June 8, 2018 at 10:22 am

    Folks, don’t ever let your depression make you ignore this wonderful community of jackals and pet lovers. We will help you, hold, and lift you, just reach out.

    LOL As long as you toe the BJ commentariat party line, in my personal experience.

    @Nora Carrington:

    Your broader point was excellent and not lost on me.

    And though you made the mistake of not putting every word in your post in perfect context so that every reader gleans the same from your post (it IS a selfish act from the perspective of those who loved the departed and I’ve a feeling that’s what you meant), but to the serious depressive all that stuff is irrelevant, almost absent.

  89. 89.

    JohnO

    June 8, 2018 at 10:23 am

    @James Powell:

    This.

  90. 90.

    Mai naem mobile

    June 8, 2018 at 10:23 am

    @Quinerly: there are times now that I honestly cannot handle listening to Trumpov. His voice wants me want to throw shit at the teevee. I am not a hateful person but Trumpov being elected has uncovered a nastiness in me that u never knew existed.

  91. 91.

    narya

    June 8, 2018 at 10:26 am

    @rikyrah: especially pertinent given Springsteen’s own struggles with depression. When I was at my worst, I was fortunate to realize that I didn’t want to die, I wanted the pain to stop. I also knew that it would devastate my parents, who had already buried one child, and that helped me carry on. I was lucky, and enough circumstances changed that I was able to turn it around, but I still shudder to think about what would have happened if circumstances had NOT changed. I’ve known three people well who did this, and it’s just brutal.

  92. 92.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 8, 2018 at 10:28 am

    @Mai naem mobile: I can’t listen to him either. I have to mute my TV when he comes on. He embodies hate and ignorance.

  93. 93.

    Hoodie

    June 8, 2018 at 10:32 am

    @patrick II: I guess this shows the profound nature of depression. Just the other day I was telling someone that Bourdain had my dream job. What a nightmare.

  94. 94.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 8, 2018 at 10:32 am

    @Leto: I have eaten bun cha in Hanoi, and it is truly one of life’s great pleasures. In fact, a significant factor contributing to my son’s and my decision to travel to Vietnam in the first place was one of Bourdain’s earlier shows on another network (IIRC he had two different shows on two different networks before landing at CNN, but his love for Vietnam shone through all of them.) Bourdain helped open my then-adolescent son’s eyes to the world; having visited north of 40 countries since then, he’s now halfway through a master’s in international relations, at least in small part due to A Cook’s Tour. This really stung him.

  95. 95.

    The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion

    June 8, 2018 at 10:32 am

    When my wife told me this morning, we both wept. I’ve lost family, friends, and students to the darkness this way. May the Light you reflected to so many find and embrace you, Tony. May It find us all. If anyone reading this is feeling like giving in, please, please let someone know.

  96. 96.

    M4

    June 8, 2018 at 10:37 am

    Maybe we can get an open thread so this one isn’t sullied further by unrelated complaints about the president.

  97. 97.

    JPL

    June 8, 2018 at 10:39 am

    @jacy: I think you should write a book about your ordeals, and the perfect title might be I was married to an asshole. Your comments have always been so thoughtful and sensitive.

  98. 98.

    HRA

    June 8, 2018 at 10:39 am

    @M4:

    I agree.

  99. 99.

    Heidi Mom

    June 8, 2018 at 10:45 am

    @sacrablue: I’ve never read his book or watched his show, all I know about him is what I’ve picked up from the news, but he seemed like a person of incredible vitality — like Robin Williams but without the undercurrent of sadness. Maybe the intensity of our reaction has to do with him being the kind of person we never thought this could happen to.

  100. 100.

    rikyrah

    June 8, 2018 at 10:46 am

    The Smithsonian once called Anthony Bourdain “the original rock star” of the culinary world. Follow updates: https://t.co/iY6Di73QfI pic.twitter.com/L4EANovmkR

    — CNN Breaking News (@cnnbrk) June 8, 2018

  101. 101.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 8, 2018 at 10:47 am

    @M4: Maybe we can get an open thread so this one isn’t sullied further by unrelated complaints about the president.

    Please

  102. 102.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 10:50 am

    @Mai naem mobile: I rarely listen to him. Makes me feel physically ill. Had the TV on as background this AM. That rant before he got on the helicopter was like a train wreck. I couldn’t look away. I guess he still startles me when I hear him actually speak. That wave of nausea comes over me… “Holy shit, he really is POTUS.”I think we are getting desensitized when are just only reading this stuff. Hard for me to explain.

  103. 103.

    Anotherlurker

    June 8, 2018 at 10:50 am

    @Elizabelle: I can say that when the dark thoughts came to me, I was frightened. I actually secured a rope to a joist. I short circuited the urge to “Do it!” by calling a hotline.
    The 2nd time the urge hit me, I was driving home late night, after working a Yankee game. I was convinced that all would be well if I just drove into a bridge abutment on the Cross Island Parkway. I don’t know what stopped me, but I somehow kept my car on the road. When I got home I called a hotline.
    I know exactly where the option of suicide occoured to me. It was the results of being f’d over by NYS, FEMA and the Flood insurance companies, in the “recovery” from Superstorm Sandy.
    I now live in Fl. and I have a great therapist. I am working hard to recover my life after financial disaster, brought on by the Sandy “recovery”.
    I am 1 among many who have been brought to ruin by inept, dishonest agencies and contractors. Some among us have chosen their lives.
    Sorry for the rant, folks.

  104. 104.

    trollhattan

    June 8, 2018 at 10:51 am

    I traveled vicariously through Tony since “No Reservations,” always admiring and a little envious of his fearlessness and intensity. Neither of these qualities comes without a cost but I never dreamed he could have been so tormented by the black dog. I grieve for his daughter and good friend Eric.

    R.I.P. Tony.

  105. 105.

    West of the Rockies

    June 8, 2018 at 10:51 am

    @Alain the site fixer:

    All attributes you bring to this site, Alain. I am rarely awake to comment in your On the Road posts, but always enjoy reading them.

  106. 106.

    hilts

    June 8, 2018 at 10:53 am

    Anthony, given our shared love of New York and the Ramones, I regarded you as a kindred spirit. Thanks for creating a wonderful body of work.

  107. 107.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    June 8, 2018 at 10:59 am

    Re Bourdain:

    VietnamCoracle wrote this on FB:

    Anthony Bourdain changed the way a generation travelled. Bourdain ‘got’ Vietnam in such a way that, for those of us who love this country, we are extremely fond of him for. He was probably a greater ambassador for Vietnamese food & culture than anyone else in the last 20 years. Bourdain’s attitude to food, especially street food, did so much to encourage people to explore it & to love it & to be proud of it. I count myself among the millions that followed his example. I will miss being able to look forward to new episodes of his shows and, in particular, wondering when he will next visit his beloved Vietnam.

    I added on my FB page:

    Agree with all of this. Bourdain pointed us to the greatest sandwich in the world, the Banh Mi at Banh Mi Phuong in Hoi An, Vietnam. It has since become a staple of our diet (my attempted version) and one of our favorite recipes. His episodes in SE Asia were the best. He had a wonderful and special relationship with that part of the world and it heavily informed and influenced our trip when we were there. He was also a strong supporter of the #MeToo movement, even calling out fellow chefs.

    That said, his recent episode in West Virginia seeking to better understand Trump-voters and tweets attempting to make excuses for their voting choice was still white-dude bullshit of the highest order.

  108. 108.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 8, 2018 at 10:59 am

    Zac Echola @ celiasojourn
    An octogenarian columnist who’d written a review about a new Olive Garden in her small city was ripped to shreds by pretentious assholes in the food blogging community and beyond.

    Anthony Bourdain flew her to New York for a meal at Per Se. Then he wrote the forward to her book.

    I hope his kindness made it up for the assholes who couldn’t let an old lady enjoy something because the abstract idea of her pleasure made them feel insecure about their pose of sophistication.

    Makes me think there’s a flip side to Mencken’s (I think it was) definition of a Puritanism as the horrified suspicion that someone, somewhere was enjoying life. A hipster is plagued by the knowledge that that chopped salad arranged in color-coordinated layers in a mason jar (or whatever the fuck they’re doing now) is just a fucking salad, and the hometown relatives they sneer at would tell them so.

  109. 109.

    jacy

    June 8, 2018 at 11:03 am

    @JPL:

    I’ve considered writing a book — I have a years worth of blog posts to jump off from. I’ve started but then realized I was still too close to it. Maybe after this last war I’ll have enough distance to delve into it without letting it affect me. Back when I was in the middle of the cancer a publisher approached me, but I was too busy trying not to die to do it, and, honestly, sort of scared at that point. But someday I know I’ll write about it.

  110. 110.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 8, 2018 at 11:05 am

    God damn
    Evan Benn @ EvanBenn
    In 2010, I covered a Bourdain book-tour stop at #stl’s TheFoxTheatre where a boy with leukemia asked his culinary idol where he should go eat – anywhere in the world – once he’s in remission. Bourdain didn’t hesitate: Spain. But then…1/3
    …after Bourdain left town and our story about the tour appearance ran, his assistant reached out to me, privately. Bourdain wanted to help send this kid to Spain and make it the time of his life. 2/3
    So, with the help of MakeAWish, Evan Piña-White went to Spain. We wrote about that – but the story doesn’t mention Bourdain’s involvement (per his wishes). He set the kid up at the best restaurants & helped make the trip incredible. He was special. 3/3

  111. 111.

    Citizen Scientist

    June 8, 2018 at 11:07 am

    So sad. My wife called me about AB’s apparent death right after I got to work this morning. She kept saying “I feel like he was part of our family.” And he was, via the tv and his ability to show that people and cultures around the world are very similar. His shows and perspective brought out my inner travel bug and reawakened my interest in learning/relearning foreign languages (I started lessons in Italian and began re-studying Spanish and French when possible). My cousin has worked for Tony’s production company for years, even directed several episodes of NR and PU, and appeared in several episodes where Tony humorously harassed the heck out of him. I hope his family and the crew are doing well.

  112. 112.

    The Moar You Know

    June 8, 2018 at 11:07 am

    My usual reaction to suicide is rage, because I’ve seen the lifelong (in some cases, generations-long) damage it leaves, and this is no different, but in addition to being angry as fuck with Bourdain, I’m profoundly saddened. He taught a lot of us about the world and cultures that we hadn’t seen before, and America desperately needed someone to do that for us.

    Well, Tony, you think you wrecked your family by leaving them for some Italian chippie, I only wish you could see what you’ve done to them now. There’s some little girl out there who is going to spend the entirety of her natural life dealing with her dad killing himself. Great job, asshole.

    ETA: glad CNN didn’t fuck around and called it suicide from the get-go.

  113. 113.

    M4

    June 8, 2018 at 11:09 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I actually think hipsters are just plagued by the knowledge that someone, somewhere is sincerely enjoying something. Or sincere at all.

  114. 114.

    trollhattan

    June 8, 2018 at 11:12 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    Touching, and perhaps typical of the offscreen Tony. His friends are fiercely loyal.

    He’s front-paged on BBC who, as usual for them, have a dozen items about him utterly new to me.

  115. 115.

    M4

    June 8, 2018 at 11:17 am

    @The Moar You Know:

    Great job, asshole.

    Some days I forget why you’re on my pie filter; this is not one of them.

  116. 116.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 11:18 am

    @The Moar You Know:

    My usual reaction to suicide is rage, because I’ve seen the lifelong (in some cases, generations-long) damage it leaves, and this is no different, but in addition to being angry as fuck with Bourdain

    Your anger is misplaced, and may be seriously, and surprisingly, uniformed.

    You have no idea what his life was like, what demons he may have been battling. And what you think you have seen about other suicides may be missing something as well.

  117. 117.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 11:19 am

    @Brachiator: agree with you 100%

  118. 118.

    Jess

    June 8, 2018 at 11:20 am

    @Alain the site fixer: He was a hero of mine as well. I watched his shows when I needed to be reminded of joy and courage in the face of human stupidity and petty cruelty. I’ve been struggling myself to find serenity in the face of the current madness, but as a cultural historian, I know we’ve been in much darker places. Even so, it’s hard to maintain optimism about the human condition. I wonder if Tony just got overwhelmed by all the sad stories of the world. I saw a lot of vulnerability and despair in him at times, perhaps an inevitable part of being so open to life. Rest in peace, Tony. I’ll miss you.

  119. 119.

    EBT

    June 8, 2018 at 11:22 am

    Be careful about calling 911, they may very well send cops instead of paramedics and then you’ve just made a bad situation worse.

  120. 120.

    The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of

    June 8, 2018 at 11:31 am

    @The Moar You Know: As someone who is a product of the “generations-long” damage of a suicide (my grandfather hung himself in the basement and I was raised by a broken, rage-filled man) let me suggest that your “rage” on behalf of those affected by it is both misplaced and less than helpful. I don’t presume to know enough about you to diagnose anything, but as someone who continues to deal with emotionally troubled people on a daily basis, let me respectfully suggest that you explore your emotional reaction in a safe, therapeutic setting with someone qualified to help you look at why you have this reaction. Trust me when I tell you that rage about someone’s suicide is no less toxic than the event inspiring it.

  121. 121.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    June 8, 2018 at 11:34 am

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Would you lighten up on the nym policing, please?!

    Google:

    site:balloon-juice.com "feathers says"

    Satisfied now?

    You can do that same search with any nym that doesn’t pass your vetting.

  122. 122.

    gene108

    June 8, 2018 at 11:38 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Method of choice in a bunch of recent prominent suicides. Kate Spade, Chris Cornell, L’Wren Scott (designer and Mick Jagger’s girlfriend).

    Even after 15 years from my suicide attempt, I am still puzzled why people, who are so successful commit suicide. I think I still have a view that external results – success in business, career, relationships etc. – make you happier with yourself, but that’s not the case apparently.

    It’s sort of the thinking that “if I had this…I would be O.K.”, but I guess feeling O.K.with yourself is a state of mind.

  123. 123.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 11:42 am

    @Quinerly:

    agree with you 100%

    Thanks. I have a dear, dear friend who had a long time battle with depression. Trying to understand what she was going through really opened my eyes about the issue. Hell, I’m still learning.

    And I really want to commend those posters here who have talked about living with and dealing with depression.

  124. 124.

    M4

    June 8, 2018 at 11:43 am

    @gene108: studies have suggested that after a certain amount of income ($70-80k individual per year IIRC) more money does not increase self reported happiness.

  125. 125.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 11:50 am

    There are people at work just finding out about Bourdain’s death. Some are not folks who seem to typically care about or follow any celebrity. But I am surprised to see how diverse the group who knew about him is, and how deeply many are affected by his death.

  126. 126.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    June 8, 2018 at 11:58 am

    @M4:

    Ha! Well said.

  127. 127.

    gene108

    June 8, 2018 at 11:59 am

    @M4:

    It’s not about money, to some extent, but it is about my own personal issues and self-evaluation.

    Though money does help, with regards to mental illness. Poorer people have higher rates of mental illness, because everyday problems, like needing new brakes for the car, become a struggle, instead of going to the mechanic and getting it done.

    Also, there’s an all or nothing mindset, in depressed thinking that can take hold. I have do to ‘x’ or I cannot do anything at all. It’s very distorted thinking, but when it takes control, it can be hard to shake, as you no longer see alternatives.

    Edit: That’s where I am surprised at the superstars, who off themselves, because they seem to have achieved ‘x’. Or if it were me, I’d be satisfied to achieve what they have, if I was in their shoes.

  128. 128.

    M4

    June 8, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    @gene108: as a fellow depressive I understand this well; but after your basic needs are taken care of, the hedonic treadmill is very real.

  129. 129.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 12:14 pm

    @Brachiator: ?

  130. 130.

    lurker dean

    June 8, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: wow, thanks for posting that.

  131. 131.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: seen feathers post here before. I truly appreciate his/her post in this thread.

  132. 132.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 12:19 pm

    @Feathers: Thank you. Much appreciated.

  133. 133.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 8, 2018 at 12:27 pm

    @Steeplejack (phone): @Quinerly: I was not talking about Feathers at all but Nora Carrington. I was actually agreeing with Feathers comment about Nora Carrington. I should have probably put it in quotes to avoid the confusion.

  134. 134.

    California Stars

    June 8, 2018 at 12:33 pm

    I was in a hole yesterday too. Coming off a long tangle with opioids for a string of painful but not irreparable health problems I’ve had these last six months, and then I stupidly click on the mother jones article and pore over those images of the asylum-seeking children, clumped up like fallen leaves in the chicken-wire enclosures on the cement floor of the ICE torture facility…too much. Too horrible.

    And worse-than-usual period cramps, and late for school pickup, and then goddammit I got stung by a bee, etc, etc. Such mundane things, and yet I felt like the world had sent me notice that everything was on an irredeemably downward course and I, for my own part, might just be obligated to speed things along. But I hugged my kids and went to bed early (just a Tylenol to help me sleep, yay me), slept deeply, far into the morning (7am, in our house) while my husband prepped and took the kids to school (a miracle), and then when I did wake up the sun was streaming in and everything was OK again. Not ideal, particularly with current events as they are, but livable, possibly enjoyable, possibly furnished with unexpected cause for hope. Strange how things can turn on a dime.

    When I checked in on the machine the news about Anthony Bourdain came up first. He was one of the only dudes in that whole absurd celebrity circus who seemed remotely like a real human being. RIP.

  135. 135.

    PJ

    June 8, 2018 at 12:34 pm

    @gene108: Depression (and accompanying feelings of failure) has nothing to do with material signs of success, which are, beyond a minimal level, largely unimportant to feelings of happiness or worthiness.

  136. 136.

    PJ

    June 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    @gene108: Though not reaching that minimal level of money does mean, as you point out, that health care is often out of reach and other ordinary problems become huge because they cannot be paid for, which increases stress and the daily difficulty of living.

  137. 137.

    Quinerly

    June 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: cool. I knew I had seen feathers comment before. Sorry for the confusion. The other commenter was way out of line, imo. Have a great day.

  138. 138.

    Gravenstone

    June 8, 2018 at 12:40 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Causing a ‘crisis’ is still a role …

  139. 139.

    Poptartacus

    June 8, 2018 at 12:41 pm

    Sad about Bourdain loved his book liked his show
    On a happier note
    Dr. Strangelove only has weeks to live

  140. 140.

    Gravenstone

    June 8, 2018 at 12:55 pm

    @Steeplejack (phone): Thank you. The knees do tend to jerk too freely some days.

  141. 141.

    MCA1

    June 8, 2018 at 12:58 pm

    @Brachiator: I get this, and it’s an even more sensitive topic than usual today, so I understand the intensity of reaction, but I think there are a couple folks here coming down a little too hard on the line of thinking you’re reacting to. Because it’s well-meaning, if a bit obtuse at times.

    I think we can all agree that suicide is a bad thing as a general matter. It is sad for the individuals, who in many cases were horribly plagued by the demons of depression, and furthermore it can and will have serious, lifelong ramifications on the emotional well-being of those left behind. Surely, we can all agree that as a society we should try to prevent and decrease the incidence of suicide, and that it’s not a crazy idea that in part we might try to do that by discouraging people from taking their own life and creating a norm against it. Calling it “selfish” or a sin are a few mores society has adopted in an attempt to do that, and to protect collateral damage victims from the wounds they would suffer if a loved one killed themselves and left them to deal with the emotional/economic/etc. fallout for the rest of their lives.

    We can argue all day about the efficacy of this stigmatizing/disincentivizing. Various people in this thread have put forth a fairly compelling claim that there are unintended consequences here that may for some individuals send them the wrong direction. But it’s intended in most cases as shorthand for “Please, think about the impact you will have on your loved ones” in the hopes that that will divert someone to a different route.

    It’s worth noting also that there are many incidences of suicide that are not tied to chronic clinical depression. Many are tied to other psychiatric issues that may be more temporary or could be more capable of being resolved with medical intervention. IIRC, suicide pacts are not generally among people dealing with the demons of deep depression. Certainly, mass suicides are not. And then there are the one-offs. The most recent exposure I’ve had to a suicide in my community was someone who by all accounts (including their family’s) was not depressive and had no history of mental or emotional stress. Instead, they got into some really sketchy financial dealings and onto some very thin financial ice, and when that ice broke they chose to end their life rather than start over, sell the house, move to a different town, deal with the shame, possibly deal with legal fallout, etc. In that situation, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say they acted selfishly, leaving behind a spouse who’d been out of the workforce for almost 20 years, and three kids. The four of them had to undertake all of those things, anyway, but had to do it without one of the two parents in the family.

    In other words, yes, we should think before we just react to all suicides by calling them selfish and being angry with the perpetrator, but sometimes that is the proper reaction.

  142. 142.

    Steeplejack

    June 8, 2018 at 1:12 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    site:balloon-juice.com "Nora Carrington says"

    Many hits, going back to 2009.

  143. 143.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 8, 2018 at 1:17 pm

    @Steeplejack: I stand corrected. Thank you for the information.

  144. 144.

    Aleta

    June 8, 2018 at 1:26 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Similarly, Karen Potter was not a troll or anything close, and had commented here about plants and things previous to this year. There was no need to accuse her.

  145. 145.

    Leto

    June 8, 2018 at 1:32 pm

    Anthony visits a Waffle House.

    “Umami literally means ‘I will suck your dick for a bite of that burger’” — A.B.

  146. 146.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 1:37 pm

    @MCA1:

    In that situation, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say they acted selfishly, leaving behind a spouse who’d been out of the workforce for almost 20 years, and three kids. The four of them had to undertake all of those things, anyway, but had to do it without one of the two parents in the family.

    Sorry, I don’t agree that you can conclude that they acted selfishly. You don’t know the psychic lives of the people involved, and certainly not that of the person who committed suicide.

    And to be blunt, neither you nor I know what factors may have led to Bourdain committing suicide.

    I try to avoid the instant diagnoses and judgments and crime solving that seem especially endemic to the Internets. Usually, these speculations have nothing to do with reality and everything to do with the values of the person making the judgment. And I absolutely detest the instant “I have no sympathy” for this or that person absent any real knowledge or clue about that person.

    In other words, yes, we should think before we just react to all suicides by calling them selfish and being angry with the perpetrator, but sometimes that is the proper reaction.

    But this is the bottom line. I understand people being angry with a person who has committed suicide, but the conclusion that suicide is a selfish act is always wrong. Yeah, I’m using an absolute here. But until I am proven wrong, entirely possible, everything that I have seen, read, and observed about suicide, especially when depression is known to be a factor, indicates that the person who takes his or her own life feels overwhelmed by life. They cannot even see themselves, and feel disconnected from the fabric of existence.

    People who make the snap judgement that people who commit suicide are selfish are as fundamentally wrong about the universe as those who think that the world is flat or who think that vaccinations are bad.

    So, I understand that people might have the reaction that you suggest. But it is not in any way “proper.”

  147. 147.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 8, 2018 at 1:43 pm

    @Aleta: Please list all my sins at once so that I can do a penance.

  148. 148.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 1:47 pm

    @Spanky:
    I worked with a young man who had major health issues he was born with that would never truly be resolved. He seemed very upbeat but had been suffering from depression for most of his young life, which none of us at work knew. He shot himself. No one will ever know the exact reason or why the timing. He had far more friends than I’ve ever had, he was fun, people liked and respected him. But that demon of depression had him in it’s grips. It can be subtle and wiggle it’s way into your life in ways that are not obvious to others or to yourself. We all can get depressed at times, life isn’t a cabaret as we very much see at this political time.
    If you feel that life is too much, or even just weighing you down, speak up. There are places to listen and that can help. Sometimes just speaking up relieves a lot of the tension that wears you down. I wrote a small comment yesterday evening, just venting, it’s a way to ease that build up that we all sometimes feel. Talk to others, get it out there, everyone goes through this to some degree in life, don’t let it rule you. Living is the best revenge. And it’s the one we have.

  149. 149.

    Brooklyn Dodger

    June 8, 2018 at 1:59 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Sorry to crash into a really sad thread but “some Italian chippie”..She’s a very specific Italian chippie, if you really want to use that word. Sorry, if the link doesn’t work: Asia Argento at Cannes.

  150. 150.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 2:03 pm

    @Nora Carrington:
    This is not a comment to like, but it is one to listen to. Very well done.
    Because we are pack animals we tend to think that others have ownership of bits and pieces of our lives. And we do have responsibilities, for example a family. But we are, to a degree, complex animals, we have more abilities than just mere survival. Some can play the piano, some can make the pianos and some can just listen but have other skills. Some have a much harder time with normal skills, I used to shop at a grocery chain in OH, every bagger was a learning disabled young adult, given a chance to belong. But each of us has, at it’s core our own lives. We collect stuff, including money but the one thing we all have in common is a limited time here. Is it for others to tell us how that life is to be? Or is it our right to have that one thing for ourselves?
    It’s a balancing act really, to have a life to figure out what and where your place is, without taking away from others doing exactly the same thing, to provide what you can for others that can’t, and to allow each of us to live their lives to whatever end is their wish. Even if that wish is made from a position that we can’t understand or wouldn’t make ourselves.

  151. 151.

    Feathers

    June 8, 2018 at 2:04 pm

    @MCA1: Intentions do not matter. Outcomes do. “Selfish” is mainly used by abusers and narcissists to gaslight and shame their targets into compliance. I’ve come to realize that when someone complains about another person’s “selfishness,” what they are describing is that person’s healthy boundaries being enforced. Extreme but true example: co-worker told me he broke up with his very sweet and charming girlfriend because she was “selfish.” It turned out her “selfishness” was cutting her hair without asking him. The actual selfish people are those to whom the suffering of others is only a problem to the extent it inconveniences them.

    Even the Catholic church has gotten away from suicide as sin, but not soon or fast enough. My parents were wondering whether they should attend the funeral of an extended family member because he had died by suicide. I was horrified and told them so. We went and it was a deeply moving and consoling service with the priest remembering the deceased, talking about his fine qualities, but also his struggles, and how wrong he was in seeing himself as beyond God’s love. That we needed to feel the pain and the sorrow and horror, and to realize that even in this, he (and by extension we) were still not beyond redemption. It was a great lesson in showing how we must be open to those who are suffering around us. Words like “selfish” and “sin” exist to end a conversation, not begin one.

    And on Bourdain, really enjoyed his books and TV shows, but recognized that he could probably be difficult in real life. What really impressed me the most was the way he was willing to openly admit that he had gotten something wrong and say so, and why. The example I recall, was that he had dumped on Emiril Lagasse big time. But then he wrote about going to New Orleans, meeting people who had worked in his kitchen, and that they loved him. Legasse had supported people from his kitchen when they moved on to open their own restaurants. He’d go to their openings, and said good things about them and their restaurants to the press. That really impressed Bourdain, and he apologized publicly and in detail. That is rare. It was the detail of it that struck me. It really made the fact that Bourdain now thought well of Lagasse to stick in my head far more than the fact that he had once not liked him. Too many “my bads” only reinforce the memory of the beef, not erase it.

    BTW – it is not best practices to say someone “committed” suicide, because that terminology comes from the language of suicide being a sin. Better to give the accurate description that they “died” from suicide. (Day job currently involves depression/suicide research. Not directly this sort of thing, but I’m just reading a lot more of it. And somehow, when you are trying to work on X prevention, X happening hits you hard.)

  152. 152.

    jk

    June 8, 2018 at 2:08 pm

    @MCA1:

    In other words, yes, we should think before we just react to all suicides by calling them selfish and being angry with the perpetrator, but sometimes that is the proper reaction.

    Single dumbest comment in this thread.

  153. 153.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 2:08 pm

    @satby:
    Same thing I learned in the 70s when I worked a suicide hotline/community counseling center. Except then getting first responders there was basically impossible if you couldn’t get the person to tell you. Tracing a phone call could take far too long, there was no caller ID. It was frustrating to say the least.

  154. 154.

    Steeplejack

    June 8, 2018 at 2:13 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Oh, you feel put upon? Then imagine if you’re a lurker or infrequent commenter who decides to dip a toe in the water, makes a comment (perhaps on a subject of great emotional intensity to them) and then gets flamed as a troll.

    Please list all my sins at once so that I can do a penance.

    Just don’t be so quick to fire the “Troll!” flare gun when you disagree with someone or find their comment “offensive.” That’s all it takes.

  155. 155.

    Mel

    June 8, 2018 at 2:14 pm

    @RedDirtGirl: This is so often, and so tragically, the situation. When depression gets that deep, the person contemplating suicide frequently thinks that those who love them would be better off without them, believing that they are “setting free” the people they love, who can then start over and, “find a happier life”.

    It is exceptionally difficult, at times impossible, to see the actuality of the situation when depression, altered brain chemistry, and situational traumas and stessors collide, creating such an overwhelming sense of hopelessness and despair.

    In the words of The Bloggess, who writes very openly and candidly about mental health, “Depression lies!”

    So many here have said what is true. If you are hurting, please reach out. If you feel you can’t reach out to loved ones, reach out to a friend, a trusted neighbor, a healthcare provider. Reach out to one of the hotlines listed above. Reach out here. Just please, please, know that you are not alone, even if it feels that way. Know that there are people who care about you, and need you, just as you are.

    We are all broken in our own way, and sometimes we have to let other hands do the patching back together for us when we are just out of fight and out of strength, and that is perfectly okay. You are needed here. You matter. You matter more than you know. Never forget that.

  156. 156.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 2:19 pm

    @Nicole:
    Not everyone in the 70s/80s hid cancer that way. My mom had breast cancer and had radical surgery. After she woke up and was walking around her best friend had brought a shaker of martinis. They poured a couple and walked around the halls of the hospital drinking them. Mom’s friend was a pistol, in the best concept of the term. I don’t know that a martini was the best thing for her at the time but the attitude was.

  157. 157.

    Ivan X

    June 8, 2018 at 2:21 pm

    I love BJ, and have been reading close to daily or more for over a decade. I’m a fairly rare commenter, though I used to be a little more. One time I came home after an exceptionally disturbing day and wrote about it, and the response I got was, literally, “no one gives a shit.” And that I was “oversharing.” Perhaps I was, and perhaps it was inappropriate, but I don’t think a visible regular would have engendered the same reaction. Since then, I’ve been a bit like a kicked dog, and I tend to not comment. I think it’s probably a tremendously supportive community for those who are regular participants in the community. But as an occasional participant, it’s not where I’d come to share my considerations about suicide, which I do have my occasional share of. It feels like a place where people protect their own, and a perceived outsider (whether or not they are a silent regular) may not be warmly welcomed.

    As for Bourdain, I’m pretty bummed about it, less because I was so attached to him, but I liked what he did, and thought he was a genuinely creative person, and that the world has lost something by his absence. It also frightens me how bad feelings like that can get. I never lose sight of how awful it would be for those who love me to lose me, so that keeps me from impulse, but it’s not remotely hard for me to imagine how he could get from A to B.

    Finally, though it’s obviously tempting in a place like this, I’m reluctant to attach one person’s inner pain to our broader moment. Yes, these are times that invite despair, but we cannot know if his feelings about the world were a factor in his act. Guns do make it far too easy for people to act on impulse, but we (ostensibly) don’t know whether that was his method. I just respect that he was suffering, for whatever the reason was, or for no reason at all, obviously much more than anyone else could know.

  158. 158.

    Mel

    June 8, 2018 at 2:25 pm

    @Mel: Clarifying:

    First part of above is specifically in agreement/ response to Red Dirt Girl’s comment.

    Second half of comment is general.

  159. 159.

    Steeplejack

    June 8, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    @Ivan X:

    Good comment, and I hope you (and others) feel more comfortable about commenting more. Balloon Juice does feel a little too clique-y sometimes, like you have to put in three solid months of “I like pets!” and “¿Por qué no los dos?” before you can risk a possibly controversial comment about poutine or whatever.

    My advice to all lurkers and rare commenters: stay the course. And “No troll! No troll! You’re the troll!”

  160. 160.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 2:45 pm

    @gene108:
    We collect stuff including money to make us happy. It never really does. Happiness is a feeling, not a thing. Some can feel it better, a very poor child who laughs while playing with a stick is happy, even if only for a moment. A very rich man who hates everyone because he doesn’t have enough is not happy. A memento can make you happy because it reminds you of something, I have 2 or 3 mementos of my several thousand mile motorcycle trip around NZ, they make me happy because they remind me of something. Their monetary value is small, their emotional value isn’t. I have a watercolor of a meadow that my sister made that looks amazingly like a meadow between a rain forest and a glacier in NZ that I saw on that trip. And she never made that journey before she passed. That reminds me of both joy and sadness.
    Being somewhat secure monetarily does take away some of the pain of day to day living. I’ve been down to $200 and no place to live and it sucks the hell into you. I was fortunate because at that time I became eligible for SS. It wasn’t much, I had wanted to wait several years to take it but it made life bearable. I have no idea what I would have done otherwise.

  161. 161.

    Brachiator

    June 8, 2018 at 2:50 pm

    @Ivan X:

    I love BJ, and have been reading close to daily or more for over a decade. I’m a fairly rare commenter, though I used to be a little more.

    For what it’s worth, some of the best comments I’ve read here have come from people who describe themselves as lurkers.

    Also, I figure we are all guests here, of John Cole, or his pets. ;)

  162. 162.

    MCA1

    June 8, 2018 at 2:50 pm

    @jk: Thanks. Really insightful rebuttal.

  163. 163.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 2:55 pm

    @gene108:

    Also, there’s an all or nothing mindset, in depressed thinking that can take hold.

    This is vital to understanding depression. Most people can find more than yes/no, on/off. Sometimes they have to work at it, sure. But the hardest thing to getting out of depression is learning to see everything in other than a two dimension world and then deciding that there really is only one.

  164. 164.

    EBT

    June 8, 2018 at 2:57 pm

    Brains are awful little mush wads of lies. They hate you for no rational reason and may act capriciously. It’s important to try to remember that, it may provide no immediate solace; but sometimes is enough of an anchor to latch oneself to. The knowledge that your own perception is distorted and everything simply isn’t what it appears.

  165. 165.

    JanieM

    June 8, 2018 at 2:57 pm

    “Also, I have never seen this handle before.”

    As someone who is relatively new and comments rarely, I wonder what difference this is supposed to make.

    Or, what @Ivan X said.

  166. 166.

    J R in WV

    June 8, 2018 at 2:59 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Pardoning a dead black guy who can’t vote will surely move the needle…

    Actually Trump cannot pardon Ali because the Champ was exonerated by the Supreme Court, if I recall correctly.

    That’s why he was able to resume boxing after being thrown out by the cigar-smoking back room guys who ran the business after refusing to enlist at the point of a gun.

    As the champ said:

    Float like a Butterfly, Sting like a Bee!

    No one else has ever done it like Ali did.

  167. 167.

    MCA1

    June 8, 2018 at 3:04 pm

    @Feathers: Some of that’s quite a ways afield. I’m not interested in discussing abusive people or their behavioral patterns. Suffice to say there have been at least a couple people in this thread alone who’ve stated that the plea of “Think of your family” in the back of their heads has saved them. That’s the norm “selfish” in this context is trying to reinforce, inartfulness and with unintended consequences of pre-shaming people for even considering the act notwithstanding. That’s also an outcome.

    Agreed 1000% on your notes about Bourdain. He was a curious, big hearted, flawed person who was also blessed with a growing sense of self-awareness as he aged. Looked beyond himself in a lot of good ways. I’ll miss his presence in our culture greatly.

  168. 168.

    Tehanu

    June 8, 2018 at 3:04 pm

    Only once in my life — thank goodness — did I have a suicidal moment. Won’t bore you with the details; I was trying to deal with some buried emotions without having the slightest idea how to deal with them, and was so terribly unhappy that one night, driving home from work, I was coming to an intersection when the light changed to red, and for one moment I thought, all I have to do is step on the gas instead of the brake. It scared me so much I started to hyperventilate, and I did step on the brake, and when I got home I finally made the decision to get therapy, which was one of the better decisions I ever made. It makes me so terribly sad to see other people feeling even worse than I did that night.

  169. 169.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 8, 2018 at 3:15 pm

    @Steeplejack: You have been repeatedly a jerk to me on this thread. I did not call Feathers a troll which was the first thing you accused me of.
    I mentioned that I didn’t remember Nora Carrington handle before, which is true. That does not make NC a troll. There have been periods when I haven’t commented on Balloon Juice. My memory is not infallible. I was basically asking other commenters whether they remembered that nym, I clarified that comment and you still kept on the attack.
    Then Aleta joined in to castigate me. I was a bit exasperated since she brought up something that was not even on this thread. You attacked me over my response to that comment too.
    I have called out trolls at times, its possible that I was wrong at times but I do not accuse any and everyone I disagree with of being a troll.

  170. 170.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 3:28 pm

    @JanieM:
    First, Welcome. And to answer your question, no difference at all.
    This is obviously a touchy subject. Both because of the person and the subject beneath the reporting.
    We, as you well know sometimes get people who show up and do nothing but disrupt the discussion. They almost never add anything to it and often derail it. Not just in a different direction but completely derail it. Then they leave, their goal having been accomplished. That’s a troll. It’s what the pie filter is for. After a while they leave.
    Now that seems fine to me but not everyone seems to hold that view. Some, mostly who have been here for a long time and participate a lot seem to take offense at anyone that hasn’t/doesn’t. Please stay and participate when you want. You may bring that one moment of clarity or wisdom that the rest of us need.

  171. 171.

    JanieM

    June 8, 2018 at 3:42 pm

    @Ruckus: Thanks! I really appreciate the thoughtful reply.

    It gets rough around here sometimes, but there’s so much that’s good and/or interesting and/or funny that I do find myself checking in every day, or oftener. I can’t imagine how the regulars keep up with the pace, which is a big reason why I only raise my head above the parapet now and then.

    And yes, the subject of this post is a difficult one.

  172. 172.

    The Moar You Know

    June 8, 2018 at 3:45 pm

    Said my piece, stand by every word. Adios, non-amigos. I know to get out while the getting is good.

  173. 173.

    Ivan X

    June 8, 2018 at 4:06 pm

    @Steeplejack, @Brachiator, @JanieM: Thanks!

  174. 174.

    Feathers

    June 8, 2018 at 4:12 pm

    @MCA1: Please realize that invoking family to anyone going through mental health issues is as likely to cause harm as help. You are assuming that “think of your family” will bring comfort, rather than increase despair. Never, ever, ever assume that someone’s family has their best interests at heart. Even if they are good and loving people, they may be reacting to a family member’s mental illness in profoundly unhelpful and even harmful ways. The people who talked about their family helping them push suicidal thoughts away were talking about THEIR feelings about specific people, not having others police the limits of acceptable thoughts, wielding “family” as a kind of talisman. When discussing “people,” you are necessarily including some abusive people.

    Recent and useful in this context: Jason Bateman Showed How “Family” Is Used To Excuse The Inexcusable

    At its most extreme, the invocation of family has been used to explain why parents ignore sexual abuse, why grandparents look the other way when their child is beaten, why no one told police when a serious crime was committed. In this way, “family” covers for the degradation of children and of elders, wielded as a sort of pass to behave horribly toward one another. Family is an alibi (“I could never do that to him — he’s family”) and an excuse (“Things happen — it’s family”); it is taken up as a shield when convenient and disavowed when not.

    Above all, family is a construct, and like all constructs, it covers for something darker, and more complex, than we’d like to admit: that family ties are not the same as love, that blood or legal relation does not necessarily induce compassion, that we are often our worst selves with the people who are automatically, unquestionably bound to us.

  175. 175.

    Steeplejack

    June 8, 2018 at 4:49 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Your “I’ve never seen that nym before” is your troll-alert “tell.”

    I’ll be waiting for the next time you say, “I don’t remember ever seeing the nym before of that person who just made that delightful remark.” It’ll be a first.

  176. 176.

    Ruckus

    June 8, 2018 at 6:43 pm

    @Feathers:
    A very good point.
    Family members come in all shapes and flavors. Good, bad and indifferent. And that’s not always a consistent description, being mostly human they do on occasion change. I’ve never understood why people think that family has to be above all else. Bad people are bad people, blood relatives or not. The family members may be a large part of depression in the first place, rather than a place to get help from it. They may just excuse whatever with something along the lines of “Get over yourself” or “No child of mine can be gay” or “Your father/mother isn’t a drunk” or “Your father/mother wouldn’t hit you” or………

  177. 177.

    Honus

    June 8, 2018 at 7:01 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: pretty much what happened to Hunter Thompson. That and a future of limited mobility and chronic pain.

  178. 178.

    Honus

    June 8, 2018 at 7:04 pm

    @Feathers: I don’t necessarily disagree, but I will say that I was pulled back from the edge a few times by the thought that I wasn’t going to do this to my mother, who really gave me a lot of love. That’s kind of why I’m surprised that Bourdain would do this to his daughter.

  179. 179.

    RedDirtGirl

    June 8, 2018 at 9:38 pm

    @Nicole: That is really well articulated. Thank you for that, Nicole.

  180. 180.

    RedDirtGirl

    June 8, 2018 at 10:54 pm

    @Ivan X: It is weird to spend so much time here, but not be “known” by the regulars.

  181. 181.

    RedDirtGirl

    June 8, 2018 at 10:56 pm

    @Steeplejack: Well done, my good madame/sir. Well articulated. And thank you for the encouragement.

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