Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

Consistently wrong since 2002

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

I conferred with the team and they all agree – still not tired of winning!

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

Israel is using food as a weapon of war. Unforgivable.

This blog will pay for itself.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

No one could have predicted…

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

Democrats are back in array!

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

The republican caucus is covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

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Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Hot, HOT… Cold!

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It’s all fun’n’games until the cops start pleading “Ma’am, this is *not* a clothing-optional area… “


 
… But at least we’re not facing the brutal chill of getting iced out on the Vineyard…


Of course, I too remember the fvcktons of media grief our most recent Democratic presidents took over their MV vacations…

Reader Interactions

137Comments

  1. 1.

    OzarkHillbilly

    “I have experienced this firsthand on Martha’s Vineyard. Old friends are shunning me and trying to ban me from their social life.”

    Pobrecito….

  4. 4.

    retiredeng

    Dershowitz is a special kind of fool to even set foot on Martha’s Vineyard this summer.

  5. 5.

    NotMax

    A bit of lighter data for the early morning hours. Trivia about that apostrophe in Martha’s Vineyard (which was there, then removed, then restored).

    Since its inception in 1890, the U.S. Board on Geographic Names has discouraged the use of the possessive form—the genitive apostrophe and the “s”. The possessive form using an “s” is allowed, but the apostrophe is almost always removed. The Board’s archives contain no indication of the reason for this policy.

    However, there are many names in the GNIS database that do carry the genitive apostrophe, because the Board chooses not to apply its policies to some types of features. Although the legal authority of the Board includes all named entities except Federal Buildings, certain categories—broadly determined to be “administrative”—are best left to the organization that administers them. Examples include schools, churches, cemeteries, hospitals, airports, shopping centers, etc. The Board promulgates the names, but leaves issues such as the use of the genitive or possessive apostrophe to the data owners.

    Myths attempting to explain the policy include the idea that the apostrophe looks too much like a rock in water when printed on a map, and is therefore a hazard, or that in the days of “stick–up type” for maps, the apostrophe would become lost and create confusion. The probable explanation is that the Board does not want to show possession for natural features because, “ownership of a feature is not in and of itself a reason to name a feature or change its name.”

    Since 1890, only five Board decisions have allowed the genitive apostrophe for natural features. These are: Martha’s Vineyard (1933) after an extensive local campaign; Ike’s Point in New Jersey (1944) because “it would be unrecognizable otherwise”; John E’s Pond in Rhode Island (1963) because otherwise it would be confused as John S Pond (note the lack of the use of a period, which is also discouraged); and Carlos Elmer’s Joshua View (1995) at the specific request of the Arizona State Board on Geographic and Historic Names because, “otherwise three apparently given names in succession would dilute the meaning,” that is, Joshua refers to a stand of trees. Clark’s Mountain in Oregon (2002) was approved at the request of the Oregon Board to correspond with the personal references of Lewis and Clark. Source

    More factoids on community names (same link).

    These are the longest community names with a hyphen or “-” in the name and total number of characters.

    Winchester-on-the-Severn, MD (24)
    Linstead-on-the-Severn, MD (22)
    Lauderdale-by-the-Sea, FL (21)
    Vermillion-on-the-Lake, OH (21)
    Wymberly-on-the-March, GA (21)
    Kentwood-in-the-Pines, CA (21)

    These are the longest community names without a hyphen or “-” in the name and total number of characters.

    Mooselookmeguntic, ME (17)
    Kleinfeltersville, PA (17)
    Chickasawhatchee, GA (16)
    Chancellorsville, VA (16)
    Eichelbergertown, PA (16)

  6. 6.

    raven

    @OzarkHillbilly: My wife was in Virginia this weekend and she brought back a “industrial cart” from her dad’s construction business. I have no idea who she and her brother got this thing in that van, it’s 6×3 made from 4×4’s and 1×6’s and must weigh 300 lbs with the gigantic steel wheels attached. Before we realized how huge it is we were thinking maybe a coffee table but he only way I could imagine that would be to cut it in half and have a 3×3 or have the wheel bracket narrowed and make it more conventional size. I’d love your thoughts.

  8. 8.

    SRW1

    I thought conservatives are solid rocks and .only liberals are whiny little bitches.

  11. 11.

    raven

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yea, do you think it would worthwhile to try to cut it down? We got the beast in the basement and I’m thinking abut taking it apart but if we’re not going to use it I’d just as soo sell it without doing a bunch of work.

  16. 16.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @raven:

    Yea, do you think it would worthwhile to try to cut it down?

    If you really like the texture and patina of the wood, sure. Character is always interesting to me. The side brackets (for inserting vertical guards to keep pipe etc from rolling off) are a nice industrial touch. You can easily lighten it up by just removing the 4x4s, a drink glass or picture book aren’t the same as 500 #s of 1″ black pipe.

    The wood looks to be yellow pine but the weight suggests oak, either way if you start sanding it down you will see a color that only decades of time can give wood.

  18. 18.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @raven: No nononononooooo, industrial concrete floors only. I think the best thing you can do with the wheels is turn them into art. (like you did with your wife’s garden bike)

  19. 19.

    satby

    So conservatives of my acquaintance on Facebook have been popping up lately to complain about some of my posts, usually the ones mocking the conservative noise machine, like the Alex Jones latest “civil war” idiocy. They’ve been silent for months, and it makes me wonder what changed. I always think it coincides with event that show significant numbers of people disagree with them, like the marches on Saturday. It’s funny how butthurt they get about how “mean” I am.

  23. 23.

    OzarkHillbilly

    The Guardian has given me my word for the day. From stone age tools to false teeth: the secrets of Amsterdam’s canals

    There are stone blades from between 4200BC and 2000BC, fish hooks, nails from the middle ages, bones, coins, keys and spectacles … all our modern clutter of travel cards, mobile phones and false teeth. There is a toy car – a replica of the Blue Bird used by Sir Malcolm Campbell to break the world speed record on the Bonneville Flats in Utah. It was made in Britain and probably lost just before 1937, when the Rokin was filled in. There is the tsuba of a 19th-century Japanese samurai sword, a Russian taxation seal, a peasant wedding jug, a Bugs Bunny Flippo (or Tiddleywink) and a Dutch police teargas shell.

    Tsuba– Samurai sword guard.

  24. 24.

    Barbara

    @raven: Do you have a porch or covered patio? It might work better in an outdoor space. Since it was made to work it might not be happy sitting inside with nothing to do all day.

  27. 27.

    Lapassionara

    @NotMax: thanks for posting this. I enjoy place name arcana.

    In other news, I don’t have to re-enter my nym. Thanks, Alain!

  28. 28.

    Cermet

    So Oman held 108 F over night – such things (while now an extraordinary event) will, as I pointed out, start occurring and in thirty years, become common in the equatorial regions. Without AC, having nights over 100 F will make an area uninhabitable. Think of about that and how most of India will see such temps (i.e. many weeks straight in the summer and with high humidity!) requiring all the poor to leave that area (and exactly where can they go and live? So how will nearly a billion people do that?) This will happen even here in under fifty years (the Mississippi valley region.) Areas of Africa and Southern China, too. AGW and heat will cause vastly more issues then the problem of sea rise that is always talked about in the news (a terrible issue but is dwarfed by the heat extremes!) But then, sea level rise is a problem countries with extensive AC and farther from the equator are concerned about – but when billions are in danger, can’t live in the heat, are forced to move without food resources, what do you think will happen? Not going to be good.

  32. 32.

    Raven

    @Barbara: The princess has a sitting garden that is adjacent to a slab that sits under our screen porch and, when I told her what OH said, she wants it there. I still may have to cut it down but I’m going to be less concerned about making it some perfect piece.

  36. 36.

    MattF

    Looks like Dershowitz has been awarded the title of ‘designated asshole’. Alan, hint: complaining about it doesn’t help.

  38. 38.

    MomSense

    Poor, poor Dersh. Maybe he could call his friend Jeffrey Epstein for some advice about how to cope with shunning.

  39. 39.

    Patricia Kayden

    @OzarkHillbilly: What I find surprising is that the percentage of Republicans who are extremely proud only went up 3 percent since 2013 when we were under a Kenyan dictatorship. You’d think it would be 90% given who is in the White House.

  42. 42.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Been thinking about those boys in the cave in Thailand. It’s a real sonofabitch to work. There’s a question about how many of them can even swim, they’re 2 kilometers into the cavern, about 800-1000 meters below the surface, and there are many flooded passages (some of which may be deep). They’ll have to be outfitted with dive gear, taught to dive, and then, as novice divers, navigate cramped cave tunnels which undoubtedly have silt at the bottom (a brush by a fin tip kills visibility- I’ve done this) and branches which lead to being lost and dying by drowning.

    They need to be strengthened with food and water, may actually need bariatric chambers at the other end. It’s a sonofbitch to tackle – this may be one of the most complicated rescues ever pulled off, and there may be deaths yet.

  46. 46.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Cermet: Any time I hear some imbecile bray, “But it’s always gotten this hot in the summer around here!” I respond, Have you looked at the overnight lows? I grew up in Baltimore without AC & in those days there were just a handful of nights each summer too hot to sleep with just a window fan. Now we get whole weeks when the temperature never dips below 80 and AC is no longer an option if you want to stay marginally sane.

  52. 52.

    Betty Cracker

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I only know the bare bones of the story, but they won’t have to dive through super-deep passages that require decompression, will they? If it’s a matter of passing through flooded zones that are too lengthy to accommodate a free dive but don’t require decompression, maybe they could use a hose set up of some type instead of teaching the kids to dive.

    When I was a kid, my dad had a contraption called an “aquanaut” that pre-SCUBA-age kids could use. It was an air pump that floated on the surface of the water with hoses that attached to full-face masks. This was in the 70s, and maybe such contraptions have been deemed unsafe in the ensuing decades, but back then, even toddlers could use this thing to dive without gear.

    Could be that SCUBA is the way to go, but hopefully they’ll be able to set up ropes, pullies, etc., to keep the kids on course in zero-visibility conditions.

  54. 54.

    father pusbucket

    Can we move the White House someplace else because this is not sustainable

    You mean including the occupant? No shit. How about the South Pole?

  56. 56.

    opiejeanne

    @NotMax: That explains the missing apostrophe in Macks Creek, MO. I always wondered about that.

    In a little while I’m having my second cataract surgery and I’m hoping it comes out as well as the first eye. Looking forward to seeing the world, mostly without glasses.

  60. 60.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: If they are smart, and I’ve read this is the way they are leaning, they will seek to find another way in that does not involve diving, failing that just sit tight for a few months. Cave diving is right on the edge of what is humanly possible and that is true for those who have trained for years and all too often it is suicidal (anything goes wrong, anything at all, can lead to death). The idea of bringing those kids out with a quick one week seminar on diving is ludicrous and tantamount to murder.

    I am actually a little surprised they got 2 Ks deep into the cave. Spelunkers rarely go that far. A friend of mine did a S&R in a big cave down in Arkansas. The volunteer fireman who first showed up swore they had gone miles into it with no sign of the lost amateurs. Finally they called B who had been mapping the cave and knew it as well as anyone. He went in and found them about a half mile in at a location that forever since has been known as “Last Match Pass”. You can figure out why it was named that.

  62. 62.

    rikyrah

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Sometimes being racist is costly. Poor dear. Maybe she’ll learn to keep her hands off Black children in the future. Only Trump can get away with being a racist blowhard. The rest of you MAGATs better learn.

    This reply has me LOL.

    BWA HA HA AH AH AH AH

  64. 64.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: Won’t work. The current as well as the viz are terrible, especially for someone who doesn’t know what they are doing.

    Doing ceiling sucks is extremely dangerous even tho there is air. All it takes is one mouthful of water and panic overcomes everything in a search for air. I was trying to guide a fellow caver thru one (1/2-3/4″ of air) when he got a mouthful and he shot past me like a rocket. In the wrong direction. Fortunately I managed to grab a foot as it went past and was able to drag him back to the airbell I was in. Got my hand under his head and implanted his face in the ceiling of the cave and said “BREATH! motherfucker.” He might very well have died if I’d missed his foot. The face plant might have been why he didn’t take me with him.

    James Cameron’s Sanctum is a very accurate representation of what can go wrong in a cave and how easy it is to die while diving.

  68. 68.

    Betty Cracker

    @OzarkHillbilly: I used to be a fairly prolific diver and have been in a few caves, but while the caves are beautiful, I never got into cave diving because of the danger in it. That would be a rotten way to go!

  69. 69.

    Dev Null

    @Platonailedit: Honestly, my Trumpkin ex-buds and relatives … I really don’t think they’d get it.

    Not even if the point were explained to them.

    I don’t think this is cognitive; it’s in the lizard hindbrain.

    Pimping a random hindbrain link.

  70. 70.

    rikyrah

    Of course #WhiteNationalist, #EnemyOfTheFreePress, #Traitor, & #AllAroundAssWipe @realDonaldTrump refused to half-mast the Flag in honor of the slaughtered @capgaznews journalists.

    He Hates America & Democracy because he’s a tyrant & totally evil person. #Jail45#TrumpRussia pic.twitter.com/USzEB5GntP

    — Bobfr (@Our4thEstate) July 3, 2018

  71. 71.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: I was never much of a water person, which more than anything else is probably why I never got into cave diving (and I really really really dislike wetsuits, my skin wants to breath) but I have a # of friends and acquaintances who took it up. It’s crazy dangerous. I read one accident report of 2 guys diving a Florida cave. They were several kilometers in when the passage suddenly silted up and they were unable to see their hands in front of their faces. They followed their dive line right up to the point where it disappeared into a wall of rubble, sand and mud. It’s a long story (one died just short of their staged tanks, the other made it) but the very idea of being in that situation…

    I can’t imagine how hopeless it must have felt being totally blind and knowing that one’s only known path to safety is insurmountably blocked. I’ve been in some situations, some of them pretty hairy, but nothing like that.

  75. 75.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    @Betty Cracker:

    A couple of years ago, I was one of the only five divers to have gone into a particular cenote in the Yucutan. Prior to that, ever cenote I’d been in was well marked with guidewires and were so easy, most decently trained teens could do it.

    This thing was completely unmarked and had a thick layer the finest silt imaginable. Get a fin tip within six inches and it got stirred up, and there were lots of branching cross tunnels. Made me more than a little nervous, even though it was gorgeous.

  76. 76.

    Dev Null

    @rikyrah: Yeah, and Pompeo Kushnered his disclosure forms (for his nomination as SecState IIRC).

    I’m sure I’m naive, but everyone I know who had to fill out an SF-86 took it way seriously. (I’m not suggesting no-one lied; I wouldn’t know. I’m suggesting no-one lied without considering the chances of exposure and ensuing consequences.)

    These guys appear to lie like a rug …

    … yet no-one seems to care.

    Not even Dems.

    I don’t get it.

    (Incidentally, Paul Rosenzweig has an essay on the SF-86 at lawfareblog which I missed when it came out. (And yes, I do realize that I’ve gone way off-thread.))

  79. 79.

    rikyrah

    @Dev Null:

    These guys appear to lie like a rug …

    … yet no-one seems to care.

    Not even Dems.

    I wouldn’t say that Dems didn’t care. But, they have no mechanism for enforcement.

    Did you see yesterday that Ross ‘ admitted’ that he shorted two more stocks?
    If he admits to two, you know he did probably 10.

  81. 81.

    Barbara

    @MattF: Jamie Gorelick whined to her personal friends (I think it was Marc Fisher) at the Washington Post and got this kind of article last year, after she agreed to represent Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, ostensibly related to security clearance matters. I suspect it’s her minions who discovered evidence of missing foreign contacts and were responsible for amended filings. At any rate, Gorelick has been a mover and shaker in Democratic circles ever since she served as Clinton’s Assistant Attorney General, and she was “hurt” that after agreeing to represent Jarvanka, “important Democrats” she has long counted among her friends no longer invited her to “important” strategy and fundraising events. She was full of blah blah about everyone having a right to defend themselves, etc. People like Gorelick and Dershowitz are completely clueless about what Trump means for us as a nation, and, more important, they don’t want to be clued in because they want everything to keep being the same for them so they don’t have to take a stand that would cost them financially.

  84. 84.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: One of the most beautiful things I have ever seen was while swimming thru a cave on the Mediterranean coast. First off the water was crystal clear, an otherwordly shade of blue that deepened with depth, my headlamp was able to penetrate as much as 60 or 70 feet down (I estimated) and all around us were these formations rising up out of the depths in all shapes and colors, some reaching the surface and forming anew things I have only rarely seen and never the equal of those in this cave.

    Absolutely insane alien beauty. I have to take it back, not one of but the most beautiful thing I have ever seen.

  85. 85.

    Jager

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m claustrophobic just reading that made me sweat. OTH, I’ve done some climbing, narrow ledges, tiny handholds and looking down 300-400 feet to the ground doesn’t bother me a bit.

  86. 86.

    rikyrah

    Another big immigration victory for the @ACLU, as a federal judge orders the Trump admin to stop arbitrarily denying parole to asylum-seekers https://t.co/Nu56LRnfGh pic.twitter.com/dpvNGKHwVe

    — Alice Ollstein (@AliceOllstein) July 2, 2018

  87. 87.

    rikyrah

    YEEESSSS

    It’s very simple: the punishment for an alleged misdemeanor cannot be you may lose your baby forever.

    — Preet Bharara (@PreetBharara) July 3, 2018

  88. 88.

    Dev Null

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Ya know, when you have your annual performance review, it’s usually just you and your boss.

    It is odd. Descriptions of the presidency often include the phrase “the most powerful man in the world”, yet it appears that in Трамп’s mind the hierarchy, from highest to lowest is:

    Putin
    Трамп with Putin’s largesse
    Трамп, president of the United States
    everyone else

    Hard to imagine as anything other than a result of kompromat.

  90. 90.

    rikyrah

    EVERY Democrat needs the attitude of Ted Lieu, Maxine Waters, and Senator Maizie from Hawaii.

    ……………………

    Dear Alan Dershowitz: You seem bothered your friends in Martha’s Vineyard no longer invite you to nice dinners.

    I note the @POTUS you defend has ripped away babies & kids from parents. Over 2,000 kids have not been reunited & some may never be.

    Have a nice July 4th @AlanDersh. https://t.co/Xp0eKUtfm3

    — Ted Lieu (@tedlieu) July 3, 2018

  93. 93.

    rikyrah

    Abp. Jose Gomez of Los Angeles, celebrated Mass with about 250 children in a detention center, including some who remain separated from family, on what once was the loading dock of a Walmart.
    “It was, as you can imagine, very challenging to see the children by themselves.” https://t.co/gHQiHFBM75

    — Rhina Guidos (@CNS_Rhina) July 3, 2018

  94. 94.

    rikyrah

    Dear Democrats:

    Policing your left flank on “Abolish ICE” is a sucker’s game.

    Instead, make this about Trump’s cruelty and incompetence.

    Trump is presiding over an immense moral and logistical disaster. You can win that argument.

    My post: https://t.co/o0l3GXV1JF

    — Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) July 2, 2018

  98. 98.

    Steve in the ATL

    @NotMax: that explains why I live in the recently incorporated city of Johns Creek. Thanks a lot, fascist bastards at the US Board on Geographic Names!

  100. 100.

    Steve in the ATL

    @NotMax: also, didn’t realize that the Chickasaw were as Far East as Georgia, and clearly the board made up “Mooselookmeguntic” and added it to this list as a joke.

  102. 102.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Jager: Most people think claustrophobia would be a problem in caves, and it certainly can be, but fear of heights is actually more problematic. I’ve seen people freeze up on a ledge when rappelling into a pit and somebody had to go down and talk them thru it. And then they have to climb back up.

    One of the weirdest things I’ve ever experienced on rope was when climbing up out of Fantastic Pit in GA’s Ellison cave (600′). Just for the hell of it I decided to do it with my headlamp off. There was a person camped on the floor waiting for some companions to return from their explorations and they had a carbide lamp set up for light. The first couple hundred feet were OK, I could look down and see that “V” of light below me and orient myself to the pit via that. Somewhere between 300′ and 400′ I began to feel like I was spinning, at first slowly but speeding up as time went on. Finally it got so bad I flipped on my light and instantaneously everything snapped into focus, I was very slowly turning as one does when hanging on rope. I turned my head lamp back off and soon the sensation of madly spinning was back.

    I did the rest of the climb with my headlamp on. I didn’t think anyone below me would appreciate the puke shower I was on the verge of giving them.

  103. 103.

    Dev Null

    @rikyrah:

    … they have no mechanism for enforcement.

    True, but Pompeo’s non-disclosure was a one-day story. Kushner’s repeated amendments to his SF-86 were … repeated one-day stories.

    Pruitt and Ross and Zinke, pretty much the same.

    Maybe I’m being naive (again) in thinking that the Dems have a way to keep these stories in the news. Controlling a branch of Congress would give them a larger megaphone, no doubt about it.

    Still, I’m surprised that the Dems aren’t pushing corruption. Perhaps they will after the midterms should they take the House.

    … Ross ‘admitted’ that he shorted two more stocks? If he admits to two, you know he did probably 10.

    Hadn’t heard, but nothing surprises me about Ross. If I’m surprised by anything, it’s that our fearless press corpse hasn’t unearthed evidence of complicity in money laundering in his role as vice chair of the Bank of Cyprus. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that he’s another Russian asset.

  105. 105.

    Anotherlurker

    @Betty Cracker: They are going to have to be very careful during the rescue. The depths that they have to navigate are not the problem.
    The problem is panic among novice divers.
    4 months of provisions seems reasonable. As another commenter pointed out, these kids will need to start from scratch as SCUBA Divers. The training that they will have to endure is usually reserved for the elite of the SCUBA community.
    Again, panic is the enemy, not the depth or the possibility of decompression.
    I add my 2 cents as a very experienced diver. I have approx. 750 dives under my belt with 300 wreck dives and 100 Cenote dives. I am also a former PADI Divemaster. As a Divemaster I worked as a safety diver for classes and openwater and wreck dives. I had to deal with panic among the divers in my charge.
    It seems to me that the rescue is proceeding in a safe, logical manner.
    I wish them luck .

  106. 106.

    rikyrah

    Pruitt has literally committed every improper act that a Cabinet official can commit – and somehow still keeps his job. That’s why we need a Democratic Congress to conduct real oversight of this administration. https://t.co/lPQaSSkPrn

    — Chris Lu (@ChrisLu44) July 3, 2018

    An EPA whistleblower tells CNN Scott Pruitt directed his staff to scrub his official calendar to hide meetings https://t.co/9q9CAzL6mE https://t.co/Y772NW0yJS

    — Anderson Cooper 360° (@AC360) July 3, 2018

  107. 107.

    The Moar You Know

    “They’ll have to be outfitted with dive gear, taught to dive, and then, as novice divers, navigate cramped cave tunnels which undoubtedly have silt at the bottom (a brush by a fin tip kills visibility- I’ve done this) and branches which lead to being lost and dying by drowning.”

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: There is no visibility down there. One of the divers said it was 2-3 inches at best and it was like going through cold coffee. There’s no way they’re going to get those kids out with SCUBA, I suspect they’re going to have to cool their heels down there for several months until the water lowers enough so that they can walk out. And on getting out, their coach needs to go directly to jail. The place is slathered in warning signs and they just ignored every single one.

  111. 111.

    Elizabelle

    @The Moar You Know: With all this, I am so thankful that the rescuers have found the trapped. Did not expect this story was going to have a happy ending.

    My guess is a two-pronged approach: scuba instruction but really waiting and hoping for an opportunity to walk out.

    Would bet there are some torrential rains ahead, and they are going to have to keep the boys’ refuge unflooded (pumping, channeling), and maybe provide them with masks, tanks, apparatus in event it does flood.

    WRT the teacher: maybe they will file charges, and he has already served his imprisonment time. This episode has made a huge point of how dangerous those caves can be, and on obeying the signs and respecting the weather. Story’s gone worldwide.

    It’s lucky these are young, previously quite fit individuals.

  112. 112.

    Dev Null

    @rikyrah: I like Josh Marshall’s analysis here (long quote):

    Wipe away all the particulars of these arguments and you are left with a basic structure which many Democrats must be sadly familiar with. ‘We have to fight or we can’t win’ but also ‘If we do fight, it will backfire and we also can’t win.’ It’s a recipe for political impotence and frustration. No less important, it makes anyone caught in this trap an object of ridicule and contempt. We should treat it as a first principle that any time we find ourselves in this logical straightjacket of ‘we need to fight but fighting will only make it worse’ there must be something fundamentally wrong with our reasoning because that cannot be right. Again, think of it as axiomatic: it’s not wrong because of any particular factual reasoning. It must be wrong because it leads to inaction and defeatism.

    This isn’t just an important principle. It’s key to understanding the role of power and clarity in politics. Let’s take the ‘Abolish ICE’ slogan. I’m agnostic on whether this is precisely the right tack. But I’m inclined to think it is since on the merits I really do think we should abolish ICE as currently constituted and create a new immigration service that is not structured around paramilitary enforcement and isn’t so prone to abuses. I hear a lot about it’s better to say ‘reform ICE’ or ‘thoroughly change the way we enforce immigration laws’. No. Electoral politics is far less about particular policies than it is about meta-messages about clarity and power. Policy and policy literalism is the libretto; these deeper messages are the score. If your political language tip toes around what you think or shows you’re not quite sure what you think or shows that you know what you think but may not be willing to act on what you think, that has bad consequences. It signals weakness and irresolution. It shows you may not have the resoluteness to act. And that counts for far more than the specifics of the policies.

    It is of course important to be strategic. For instance, it’s not at all clear to me that interrupting cabinet secretaries’ dinners accomplishes anything productive besides emotive satisfaction for protestors and diehard anti-Trump voters. Unlike ‘Abolish ICE’ it doesn’t signal a clear policy goal. It’s mainly about emoting. It is important to evaluate every tactic and strategy for what it actually gains. What Democrats need now isn’t training sessions on civility or better ways to finesse language. They need to find the most effective ways to fight and then throw everything into it. Doing anything else is a recipe for constantly wrong-footing yourself, signaling an irresolution, uncertainty and fecklessness that is far more damaging than mere policy disagreement.

  113. 113.

    Barbara

    @rikyrah: I really like Preet Bharara. It’s just kind of a sick twist of fate that his potential for a political career is so limited. Maybe if Schumer retires . . .

  114. 114.

    Yutsano

    @rikyrah: Eh. Not sure I agree with Greg here. Targeting the out of control federal agency is part of the argument that Dolt45 is a complete incompetent and also very cruel.

  117. 117.

    Dev Null

    @rikyrah: “most corrupt Administration in American history.”

    Of course nothing holds a candle to the failure to adhere to email server Best Practices. ~sarcasm~

  118. 118.

    Aardvark Cheeselog

    Shorter Dersh: “I take up bathing in raw sewage, and people have the nerve to tell me I stink too much to hang with them anymore.”

  120. 120.

    Dev Null

    @Yutsano: Pretty sure GS is saying what you’re saying.

    “Policing your left flank” is a reference to the Establishment argument that “Abolish ICE” is a loser; GS is saying “calls to ‘Abolish ICE won’t damage Dem prospects'”.

    That’s my reading, anyway. And if the WaPost link is the one I read earlier this morning, that’s what GS is saying in his WaPost essay.

    Which is what Josh Marshall is saying as well.

  121. 121.

    Barbara

    @Yutsano: The way I try to frame this in comments to MSM articles is that every president thus far, Republican or Democrat, has managed to process asylum applicants without committing crimes against humanity. If there is a crisis, it is a crisis of Trump’s incompetence or malevolence.

    I realize there have been missteps and even overreaching by past presidents, but it is important not to harp on abuses around the margins when what we have now is something completely new, which is a deliberate strategy implemented on a grand scale to punish people by, in essence, inflicting the equivalent of a family death penalty just because they are trying to obtain asylum.

  124. 124.

    rikyrah

    July 3, 2018 at 9:47 am
    Judge Rules DHS Must Give Asylum Seekers Individualized Parole Hearings:

    “Trump administration must consider on an individual basis whether immigrants who come to the U.S. seeking asylum represent a flight risk
    or a danger to their community before they can be detained if they’ve proven a credible fear of persecution.”
    thehill.com/regulation/395254-judge-rules-dhs-must-give-asylum-seekers-individualiz.

  125. 125.

    Betty Cracker

    Speaking of cave diving, one place in the US to sort of get the experience without the mortal peril is the King’s Spring (AKA Big Spring) in Crystal River, Florida. It’s not as pristine as it used to be thanks to Republican tools who are in the pocket of developers and ag barons and have shot the aquifer all to shit. But it’s a clear, freshwater spring about 65 feet deep. You can dive through passages where you are in a cavern-like area but never in complete darkness or out of sight of an exit.

  126. 126.

    Jager

    @Jager:

    I had 5 of the best days of my life in the Bugaboos. We did three climbs and had a great time hanging around with the other climbers from all over the world. The most popular guy was the Canadian kid who carried 3 cases of Molson beer to the hut in a massive Lowes backpack along with his gear. At 8 bucks a can, he paid for his trip from Edmonton. I had a nalgene water bottle of Jack Daniels with me for after climb cocktails. On the rocks over glacier ice in a back packing cup.

  129. 129.

    Elizabelle

    @Jager: Jack Daniels over glacier ice.

    There’s a commercial in there, somewhere. Bet it tasted divine.

  130. 130.

    Dev Null

    @rikyrah: Emptywheel has a post.

    I’d like to put a human face — my own — to the risk posed by GOP gamesmanship on the Mueller investigation.

    Sometime last year, I went to the FBI and provided information on a person whom I had come to believe had played a significant role in the Russian election attack on the US. Since that time, a number of public events have made it clear I was correct.

    I never in my life imagined I would share information with the FBI, especially not on someone I had a journalistic relationship with. I did so for many reasons.

    […]

    It infuriates me to observe (and cover) a months-long charade by the House GOP to demand more and more details about those who have shared information with the government, at least some of whom were only trying to prevent real damage to innocent people, all in an attempt to discredit the Mueller investigation. As someone who has worked to rein in dragnets for over a decade, I’m all the more disgusted to see so many lifelong cheerleaders of surveillance pretend to care now.

    I only came to be convinced slowly about Russia’s role in the attack and I have been skeptical of the Steele dossier from the day it was published. That said, I obviously do not like Donald Trump — though I’m no Hillary fan, either. But my decision to share information with the FBI had nothing to do with my dislike for Donald Trump. It had to do with the serious damage that someone else I believed to be involved in the Russian attack — someone I had been friendly with — was doing to innocent people, almost all of those people totally uninvolved in American politics.

    This investigation is not, primarily, an investigation into Donald Trump. It’s an investigation into people who attacked the United States. It’s time Republicans started acting like that matters.

    h/t Atrios

  131. 131.

    Bess

    Build a ‘pod’ for the kids. Make it flexible if it has to go around sharp bends. Supply it with more than ample oxygen.

    Test pull the pod through enough times that there’s no question of it working.

    If necessary, give the kids something to relax them a bit and haul them out.

    I don’t know about any problems other than parts of the route are underwater and the water is very murky so I assume that’s it. There’s already a guideline in place.

  132. 132.

    The Other Chuck

    @Dev Null:

    I have been skeptical of the Steele dossier from the day it was published.

    Every last thing in the dossier has been verified so far, so you gotta know there’s a pee tape too. But honestly, I don’t care whether there is a tape, and the dossier isn’t even relevant now given the hard evidence we’re seeing every single day, sometimes tweeted by the perpetrators themselves (here’s to you, junior!) let alone what Mueller has. Guess there had to be “balance” in there somewhere, since that after all is more important than literally anything else.

  135. 135.

    NotMax

    @opiejeanne

    Marvelous and insightful.news. Enjoy the upgrade.

    @The Pale Scot

    Why limit to the short version? Full name: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogoch.

    Perhaps an urban myth that British Rail charged sixpence extra for a train ticket there due to the necessity of added length.

  136. 136.

    opiejeanne

    @NotMax: Seeming more marvelous as the eye stops hurting. I think it’s just dry from being propped open for 30 minutes. having a late breakfast now because I am allowed to eat now.

  137. 137.

    Dev Null

    @The Other Chuck:

    Every last thing in the dossier has been verified so far

    I am guessing you meant “nothing has been disproven”, which is very different from what you said.

    Much of the information in the dossier has yet to be substantiated, as the Senate Intel committee chair, Richard Burr, said a few days ago. Per Raw Story…

Comments are closed.