They’ve gotten the 8th boy out and have now stopped for the night. Here’s a live stream of the ongoing coverage from near the site:
For those wondering what this type of rescue entails, here’s a former certified cave and rescue diver from central Florida:
First off, let’s acknowledge that open water scuba is a chump sport now. Sorry Mom and Dad (who both learned from retired/sadistic SEALS) it’s all computers, no one drown proofs you, and most idiots can learn to dive.
They don’t call it “Put Another Dummy In” for nothing kids 2/X— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
Cave diving is 30-90’ of overhead. You F up you gas calculations you die.
You have a catastrophic gear failure? You die.
You go in untrained? Guess who gets to pull you bloated corpse out. Worst days were when we’d get calls from the Alachua Co. Sherrif’s office— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
So, to be a cave diver and rescue cert’d is a lot of work. Think about the Thai SEAL who died, that man has more time and skill in a cave than 99% over divers alive
Let that sink in
Now you are asking if terrified, starving young men to enter the SCARIEST ENVIRONMENT IMAGINABLE— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
Now put boys weak from starvation, on the verge of panic from the pressure of life and death, THEN flood that cave.
That’s what they’re doing right now
Teaching these boys to scuba, follow a thin gold line on minimal training and hope they don’t kill their rescuers— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
If nothing else, I hope two fact puts things in perspective for you.
1) three of my friends have died cave diving
2) I’ve never successfully pulled a live human from the water (scuba, lifeguarding another matter)— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
I forgot a couple important points.
1) you are wearing half your bodyweight in gear. I'm about a buck twenty in the photo and my whole rig weighed about 60lbs. It's gotten lighter but its no joke pic.twitter.com/byVGwmkkyE— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
I don't know what the boys are in but even a 7mm wetsuit gets cold after 45 minutes. 3-5 hours, when already depleted and weak will literally be a fight for life.
— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
This is that cave, 300' in. Dark, narrowing, & high flow.
Looking at the sketches of the Thai caves, its smaller, darker, &d muddier.
Again, I hope this put things in perspective. Think about following that tiny line, with a terrified boy, half the space, and 10% the visibility pic.twitter.com/v34qXuBGKn— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
You also need the standard regulators. Your tank set up varies: single for short dives, double with dual manifold (seen in the first pic) for long dives. However, there’s been a movement in the last decade for side mounts p, single tanks under each arm
— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
I’m hoping it’s shallow to cut down on decompression time and speed up the process. Otherwise you’ve got high(er) risk of injury/death and likely a long trip to the nearest chamber
— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
Also, if you need more info, check out https://t.co/vYqsHTwP49
(Truth up front, my old man helps run the site)— Puff, probably a real person (@Where_is_Puff) July 9, 2018
Stay dry!
Open thread.
rikyrah
Prayers for all of them.
oldster
This is so many of my nightmares rolled in to one.
She is right: every kid that makes it out, and every adult helping them to do it, is a testament to the better angels of our nature.
We need that right now, given how much power the worst angels currently hold in our country.
LAO
It is absolutely mind-blowing to me that the rescuers have managed to pull 8 of the boys out so far. So incredible.
Betty Cracker
Off topic, but since it’s an open thread — via The Beeb:
Can May survive this? I bet she wishes she could ask Trump to keep his fat ass in America this week — or fly straight into the arms of Putin!
The Moar You Know
I have had confined space work training. Not under water. It’s scary as hell.
I’d have to be drugged to make the trip those kids are going to have to make, and being drugged is probably not optimal. I hope nobody else dies.
And after, when this is all said and done, I want their coach in jail. Not optional. Those kids should all be dead, and someone did die as a direct result of his stupidity.
eclare
@LAO: Same here, I was not optimistic
Platonailedit
Boris, the brexit bastid, quits. Good riddance.
Frank Wilhoit
Betty Cracker: She’ll survive, because every Tory’s first goal is to keep Labour out. But what needs to emerge from all this is the cold, hard fact that Brexit is all and only about making London safe for Russian money laundering. It has never been about anything else.
sibusisodan
Thank you for posting that Twitter thread. It’s one thing thinking ‘I bet that’s hard’. Hearing the details is a whole other level or ten.
dmsilev
@Betty Cracker: Have you seen the pictures of the ‘angry baby Trump’ blimp that protestors will be flying during his visit? I hope someone tells him about it or that he gets confronted with it.
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker:
Boris Johnson, always with the courage to go second.
different-church-lady
Well, I’m convinced: all the kids, the coach, and all the rescuers are going to die.
The Moar You Know
@Betty Cracker: In a word, no. I’m surprised she hasn’t gotten tossed already.
Money doesn’t want Brexit at all.
Racist Brits do.
Gonna split that pretty little Tory coalition right in half. Problem is, Money doesn’t want to have anything to do with Labour and the racist nutters refuse to.
OzarkHillbilly
Good to see this. I’ve been giving a regular cavers explanation of cave diving to the AM crew. I know the basics plus more than a few of the details but am in no way truly conversant on all the technicalities. As for this:
It’s absolutely terrifying, and not just for the person who is panicking but for others with them who are incapable of doing anything to help. I was trying to guide a fellow caver thru a 1/2-3/4″ ceiling suck when he got a mouthful of water down the wrong pipe. He just exploded, shot past me like a rocket in the wrong direction. I managed to grab him as he went by and drag him back to the airbell I was in. Got my hand under his head and slammed his face into the ceiling yelling, “BREATH! Motherfucker!”
That face plant may have saved both our lives.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Boris has Brexited the building!!!
As for May, her government is hemorrhaging. Ad to that the revelations in the ongoing Guardian reporting revealing that not only was Brexit a Russian active measure, but that a number of her ministers – including the recently departed David Davis – and the Northern Irish DUP, which allows her to actually form a government, are all involved in significant financial crimes. Many also linked to Brexit. The problem is going to be 1) could Jeremy Corbyn actually form a minority government if the current one falls and 2) will all of this finally put enough steel in enough spines to say: “The Brexit referendum was legally non-binding, as a result we’re going to just rip this band aid off, recognize that the outcome was manipulated by a hostile foreign power who is murdering our citizens on our own soil working in tandem with British citizens who sold out their country for money. We will also be proposing and passing the set of laws that the investigative committee indicates it needs to actually resolve this crisis, hold the criminals involved responsible, and prevent it from happening again.”
Yarrow
All involved in the cave rescue are so brave. Good thoughts for all involved.
@Betty Cracker: Boris is such an ass. Speculation from some English friends is that this Brexit mess will split the Tories and destroy the party.
Amir Khalid
The BBC reports that the Royal Thai Navy hopes to get everyone out by the end of tomorrow. Given that heavy rain, and maybe more flooding in the caves, is expected this week, it won’t be a minute too soon.
Aimai
@The Moar You Know: that is not the lical thai position. At the moment they feel that this very young assistant coach made a rookie mistake—walked in and then got stranded by flooding—and then used his religious training as a former monk to keep the boys alive, fed, and calm (through meditation and prayer) for NINE DAYS before they were located. If these kids are keeping calm during this hellish rescue, under water and in the dark, it may well be because of his leadership and training.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman:
I’ll put $100 on “No.”
different-church-lady
@Aimai: I’ve seen the video the diver shot when he first found them. I think the kids are calmer than Puff is.
Steve in the ATL
@Betty Cracker: as I understand it, she’s not popular, but the good guys don’t have anyone who can get the votes to depose her. Caveat: I don’t know shit about it.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: Has Corbyn come out against Brexit. I thought he tried to be ambiguous about his stance.
CliosFanBoy
the photos alone are enough to give me nightmares.
LeeM
Puff, thanks for the perspective. I was a Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer, free diver and open water diver in my youth. There is no way I would voluntarily cave dive, too much chance of dying. Nope, No way, just don’t like confined spaces. I’m glad that you can do this work.
Ruviana
OT but for Adam and others who ponder the power and roles of cultic organizations, have this article about Aum Shinrikyo. I remember the subway gassing but their reach was pretty scary and as always makes me wonder what else is out there…
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman:
Word on the ground from friends in the UK is “not yet.” These friends voted Stay (against Brexit) in the referendum, so they want to see it fall apart.
schrodingers_cat
So which season of The Crown will feature Brexit?
Amir Khalid
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m surprised that Theresa May has lasted some two years as PM.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: British Bernie is the darling of LTT (Leftier-than-thous).
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: That’s my take. Corbyn doesn’t strike me as either a strategic thinker or a tactician. To use a term from the study of religion and religion and politics: he’s a peaker. By that he’s the person that scales the peak, has the vision, comes back and relates the vision, is venerated and/or derided for the vision, but doesn’t have the knowledge, skills, and/or abilities to make the vision work.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Seems like the only choices over there are Corbyn or May, however.
dmsilev
@Amir Khalid: Who among the Tories would be a plausible contender to replace her?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Amir Khalid: I don’t follow UK politics closely but my impression is she’s the least un-popular national figure. I see people on twitter– many of whom I suspect actually understand about as much as I do– saying that Boris is the next PM, and people saying he’s done
rikyrah
URGENT #CallToAction:
Brian Benczkowski is the most dangerous Trump nomination you’ve never heard of.
Trump’s nomination of Benczkowski to head DOJ’s criminal division could devastate Mueller’s probe if Rs manage to dump Rosenstein.
Vote is this week.https://t.co/OXhGF9gpSE
— The Loyal Opposition (@TheLoyalO) July 8, 2018
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Well, there’s the problem, isn’t it?
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: My understanding was he sort of, if you squint just right, officially opposed it.
schrodingers_cat
@dmsilev: Can Andrew Sullivan’s buddy make a comeback?
dmsilev
@schrodingers_cat: Margaret Thatcher is dead, so probably not.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@different-church-lady: you know how has a great account? Bruce Willis. But I’m the only one sees the tweets and I can’t copy and past them
rikyrah
Hillary Clinton testified to the House Benghazi Committee in public for 11 hours and @realDonaldTrump won’t even sit with the special counsel for a minute. Now, why is that?
— Evan McMullin (@Evan_McMullin) July 7, 2018
Adam L Silverman
@Ruviana: One of the case studies in my masters thesis in comparative religion was on Aum Shinrikyo.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: That is my take as well.
schrodingers_cat
@dmsilev: Cameron. MT is Sully’s idol, his deity not friend.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Brutal. But I can see its truth.
trollhattan
The cave rescue is so very harrowing. So many unwanted factors rolled into one giant shit sandwich–best wishes to the boys and amazing rescue team. Also hope the coach gets out so the parents and he can have a nice chat while the boys are off playing video games somewhere.
A Ghost To Most
@oldster:
Actually, it is none of mine (think Cujo), but it still adds up to a nightmare. Give thanks to all the science that makes this rescue possible.
Adam L Silverman
@rikyrah: Restless twitter thumb syndrome.//
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Hey! that sounds familiar….
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’d love a tshirt “Voted least-upopular.”
The Moar You Know
@Aimai: Then this will keep happening, over and over and over again. The Thais need to get a fucking clue if this is how they are looking at it, because without his actions, the kids would not have been in cave in the first place.
Just like how we treat Republicans here in the US – falling for “oh, he’s suffered enough, poor dear” and then wondering why the entire party is wandering around with torches setting America on fire.
Cermet
As an open water certified diver (made a few ocean dives to 150′ max) and having done dry land cave crawling in areas I had to squeeze through (in shallow water but always breathable!) I would NEVER enter an underwater cave!
rikyrah
@Adam L Silverman:
Ain’t that some shyt?
Muthaphucka up to his eyeballs in the lying for that garbage, but, is heading for the hills…
dmsilev
More incivility, via TPM:
I’m sure that’s good for at least three front-page NYT stories and half a dozen op-eds.
R-Jud
In re the U.K., my fear (as a resident) is that we wind up with a new Tory government under the odious reactionary Jacob Rees-Mogg. He’s anti-gay rights and anti-abortion and is basically a bad Wodehouse character.
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman: I keep hoping the scandals emerging from the Brexit vote shenanigans will clue more Americans in on what happened here. It’s all part of the same plot, really. And the only true justice would be to invalidate the results that flowed from those compromised elections. I don’t think there’s even a 1% chance of that happening, but it really is the only just outcome.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Trump is a peaker. Or would be if he could focus for more then 45 seconds. Or, perhaps, he’s the harbinger of other peakers; amplifying and transmitting their visions in a way they couldn’t because they couldn’t get enough people to pay attention them. And he’s surrounded by non peakers who are committed to the vision and happy to do the tedious work of translating the vision into practical effects.
R-Jud
@dmsilev: You threw away the food AFTER they already had your money? Sick burn, bro.
Shell
Fantasizing about the thing suddenly collapsing and landing on his passing motorcade. Trump panics and has the Secret Service fire into a limp balloon.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep. Sometimes you’ll also see the terms prophet and priest used. Especially in regard to American politicians. As in Reagan was more prophet than priest. While Bush 41 was more priest than prophet. Some of the use of this analogy has to do with how different politicians both understand the world and how they communicate.
Platonailedit
Next brexit sec is named Raab. Ironic.
evap
I learned to dive in Hawaii 30 years ago and dove regularly for a few years. I’m claustrophobic and could never even enter a tunnel if I couldn’t clearly see the other side. Just reading those tweets about cave diving is giving me a panic attack! If there is any justice in the world those divers will become national heros.
As for Bexit, there has always been a part of me that believed it would never actually happen. I suppose it’s still more likely to happen than not, but maybe there are enough people who see what a disaster it will be…
MattF
@Adam L Silverman: Corbyn is the prototypical backbench MP, transported to the front of the room by forces beyond his control. And he thinks it happened because he was right all along. Not really a politician at all.
Cermet
@Aimai: That group ‘leader’ certainly and some of the boys should have known that rains were very possible if not certainly likely (no one check the forecast?) Yet they and most certainly that so-called leader felt that entering that cave with that extreme danger would be worth the risk so the group could experience a “fear factor” and build a group think – beyond stupid and so irresponsible to be fully criminal. Like ignore a sign that say’s “Bridge unstable, likely to collapse; do not enter” yet leading a group onto the bridge. Insane. My worthless two cents
Miss Bianca
@dmsilev: Oh, the poor dear had to dump his sushi? That’s so *terrible*. I’m sure the kids in the kiddie gulags would be just devastated to hear it.
Wait, what is he doing eating sushi in the first place? That’s not White Food! And it was probably made by immigrants – some of them illegal!
schrodingers_cat
@Cermet: You don’t fuck with monsoon rains in the tropics. July is peak monsoon.
ETA: Traditionally in western India fishermen don’t fish during monsoon because the sea is angry and the waters dangerous, during the season.
lowtechcyclist
I did a fair amount of caving in my younger days, and I’m comfortable in a lot of situations that would give many people claustrophobia. But I decided early on that there was no way I was going anywhere near cave diving. Just reading about underwater cave exploration in NSS News and so forth gave me the creeps. So little margin of error, so many things that can go wrong.
Mary G
It’s an odd consolation that Britain fell for the Putin ploy first. We are not the only stupid country. And this sounds like a meeting that could happen every day in the White House.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: In Britain, because the Brexit vote was non binding, they have a statutory and constitutional ability to void it by just stating “it is statutorily non-binding” so we’re going to ignore it as it would be terrible policy. There is no mechanism in the US, constitutional or statutory, that would allow for the 2016 election to be invalidated even if Mueller were to go on prime time TV and walk everyone through how what the Russians did resulted in the President’s election. There are only four resolutions. The first two are short term. Electing a Congress that will do proper oversight and hold the administration to account and in check by both exercising the power of the purse and clawing back legislative power that has been ceded to the executive branch. And, if necessary, impeachment. The other is leveraging the courts, both to prosecute those who conspired against the US, as well as to serve as a constitutional check against the administration’s actions. The latter two are long term. The first is elections. Specifically voting the President out of office. The second is rebellion. Those are the only four responses possible under the US Constitution and statutory regime.
Cermet
And lets not for get a cave diver DIED thanks to the criminal and irresponsible behavior of that team’s leader. Solely his responsibility and he should be criminally prosecuted!
Adam L Silverman
@MattF: So Britain’s Paul Ryan.
Calouste
@dmsilev: I don’t believe that story. $80 in take out sushi would suggest that Miller had someone to share it with at home. That’s really stretching it.
Mike J
@Platonailedit: He only ever got the job because somebody saw a piece of paper that said FO, Boris and misunderstood it.
Cermet
@schrodingers_cat: I (being afraid of any underwater cave!) agree with you. They knew rains were coming. The kids followed an “adult” and being teens, I can understand them. But that guy was just so very, very wrong for what he did. I so hope no one else die’s thanks to his actions (not even him.) Not that I haven’t done foolish things in the past but I’d hope I never did something that stupid.
Adam L Silverman
@Calouste: In DC, high end sushi can easily run $80 for a couple of rolls.
Kelly
@OzarkHillbilly: I tried to help a panicked woman out of a rapid years ago. Her life was not in danger, just a long stretch of big, clean waves. She had a good PFD, I had a good PFD. I was a foot taller and 60 lbs heavier. I’m a very strong swimmer and have been dumped into class 5 rapids. I’d never had lifeguard training. I just swam out waved, shouted and stretched out my arm to pull her out of the current. She completely overpowered me, climbed on top of me shoving my head a couple feet under water. Then the current seperated us and she was on her own. It all worked out and she didn’t even remember grabbing me.
Miss Bianca
@Cermet: I mean, yeah…it’s great that the leader, once having led the kids into a dangerous situation, apparently has been able to keep them calm and focused. That’s awesome, and it will be a miracle worth celebrating if every one of them survives the encounter. But all the monk’s training in the world wouldn’t have been necessary in this case if he had exhibited a little common sense.
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman: Alexander Hamilton saw the chink in our armor:
As I replied on Twitter, aside from the “considerable talents” thing (unless self-promotion and greed count), Hamilton described Trump to a tee. In 1792.
Amir Khalid
@dmsilev:
If there’s anyone right now whose leadership the British people trust, it’s probably Gareth Southgate. But I don’t think he really wants to be PM.
Robert Sneddon
@Adam L Silverman: Boris can’t run for leader of the Tory Party against Theresa May while remaining a Cabinet Minister serving under her. It’s as simple as that. The other possible candidates are free and clear, mostly, back-benchers or holding down minor PPS positions.
I expected the sticking plaster and baling-wire to hold at least until conference season (British major political parties hold an annual conference during the summer recess — the Tory Party conference is due to be held at the end of September this year) but it’s all coming apart at the seams after the “let’s all put the knives down” kumbayah session at Chequers last week. Fun times.
Nicole
@Betty Cracker: I agree with you, but the events of the past two years have really given us a real time look at how people will accept the rule of authority and norms. It’s astounding what levels people go to to avoid rocking the boat. Was Mcmullen one of those a cast an electoral vote? And was whining on Twitter about how he couldn’t bear to caster for Trump (there was some Republican from a Western State was doing that in November 2016, but I can’t remember who it was). But notice, he never considered casting it for Clinton. Because that would’ve been actually taking a stand against the norm. Americans spin a story to ourselves about how we’re all independent lone wolves, but when push comes to shove of, we’re lemmings.
Seanly
I’ve only ever done some minor DRY cave spelunking as a kid. Never in any danger but had a few terrifying moments. Good luck to the rescuers. It’s amazing the kids & coach lasted this long. Is there any write-up about how they got stuck? My Google-Fu is weak as all I can get is current stories.
The takeaway for me is to never go into a cave in Thailand…
Calouste
@Amir Khalid: Southgate has more important things to do for the next week. May will have to hang in there until Monday.
Platonailedit
LOL. Their parliament debates are livelier than the morose and bellicose US house and senate proceedings.
Amir Khalid
@Miss Bianca:
We should waut until everyone is safely out before we even think about fingerpointing.
Yarrow
@dmsilev:
They really are such delicate snowflakes, aren’t they? The real story here should be “Miller runs away in terror when someone uses an outside voice.”
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: It doesn’t need Hamilton to figure out that being able to get rid of a despotic or inept ruler would be a good feature to have in a constitution. Were they drunk on their own kool-aid about being so awesome that human nature no longer applied to American politicians aspiring to the highest office in the land?
randy khan
@dmsilev:
You know what? I’m beginning to think it’s good that these stories get such wide play. Let the Trump supporters among the NY Times readers marinate in what their friends think of them. Nothing else has given them a clue; so maybe knowing they could be shunned will shake them loose.
Yarrow
@Cermet: It should be left up to the Thai authorities and Thai laws to decide how to deal with the coach. We may not even have the actual story yet of how they ended up where they did.
schrodingers_cat
@Platonailedit: T would never survive a question hour.
Humdog
@Amir Khalid: once again, Amir is the voice of compassionate reason. Thank you.
I was surprised that one could be a former monk and only be 25. How young can one become a monk? If you start seminary that young, when does one have the opportunity to learn “common sense”?
randy khan
@Amir Khalid:
Right now, he has a better job, too.
schrodingers_cat
This story has completely pushed the story of 2000+ forcibly separated migrant children on the border off of the front pages.
The Moar You Know
@Kelly: I was 13 or 14, at Boy Scout camp on Catalina Island (best camping in the world BTW). Was snorkeling in the kelp beds with a swim buddy I didn’t know. He got some down the snorkel and panicked, started flailing. He was not an experienced swimmer. So I snagged him from behind like my swim coach taught me, started sidestroking in, and when he started to try and get on top of me (also just like my swim coach taught me would happen, she was really good) I punched him in the face repeatedly until he stopped, just like my coach taught me. Hauled him in, dumped him with the adults, and went out without asking for a new buddy for another half hour before coming in. I was done with babysitting rookies. He was fine. Still to this day the prettiest diving (I only snorkel) that I’ve ever done, shame our water out here is so damn cold. I would have gone all day if I could have.
Still don’t know to this day how that kid got his swim badge. Advanced swimmer, my ass.
trollhattan
@Yarrow:
I call “Fake news”! The REAL Stephen Miller would have thrown the sushi on the floor and let the janitors handle it.
schrodingers_cat
@Humdog: Agreed would like to know his side of the story before condemning him. But a monsoon downpour in the month of July shouldn’t be exactly surprising to anyone.
Yarrow
@Robert Sneddon: From The Guardian liveblog of the Brexit upheaval:
LOL. It’s not really going well for the Tories.
gwangung
@randy khan: If we think racism and bigotry are anathema to our cultural values, then we MUST socially shame bigots and racists.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: It’s the Internet, sir. It’s never too early for baseless speculation and finger-pointing.
Chyron HR
@Cermet:
You forgot “SAD! #MTGA”
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: I’m familiar with the quote.
different-church-lady
@gwangung: If the Supreme Court says a guy doesn’t have to bake a cake for gays, then we don’t have to be nice while preparing raw fish for assholes.
The Ancient Randonneur
@schrodingers_cat:
The national and international media know we are addicted to drama. Imagine if the US national media put the same resources in to reporting on concentration camps for children on our very own soil.
Barbara
@evap:
That’s how I feel. My husband and son have become certified open water divers, which has become as the tweeting diver says, safer because of — duh — technology, which she makes sound like a bad thing, which, I guess it might be if your goal is to keep your hobby exclusive. I do not like thinking about diving in enclosed spaces of any kind, where you or your equipment can become stuck or you can lose your bearings. I still don’t quite understand how these boys got stuck where they are.
Amir Khalid
@Humdog:
It’s a common rite of passage for young Thai men to spend some time in a Buddhist monastery.
Miss Bianca
@schrodingers_cat:
I think that was my point. No matter how cloistered you are or may have been. Not interested in “finger-pointing”, per se, but just wondering what on earth prompted the decision to go caving during that season – I would imagine that the dangers must be known.
different-church-lady
@The Ancient Randonneur: But we constantly need a fresh fix. Kiddie prisons are yesterday’s smack.
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat:
Link.
raven
I read a book about the divers that went in after the attack on Pearl Harbor. It’s not cave diving but still
ruemara
@Aimai: knee jerk reactions are very human.
Re: cave stuff. When I was young (ok, teen), I came across this book, “Jaguars Ripped My Flesh” by Tim Cahill. It was a bunch of his travel stories and although I loved all of them, especially Pombe Wisdom, the Satan’s Silthole story stuck with me. He goes into a lot of depth (no pun intended) starting from a grim cave diver cartoon where pretty much all these open water n00bs & their OW cert trainer are probably gonna die based on the equipment & techniques mentioned. But I decided then that I’d prefer to just snorkel and if I ever went cave diving, that person needs to be certified, the area must be absolutely n00b friendly (there is no safe) and I better be in the best shape of my life. Can’t deny though, some of these caves are spectacular. But I’m good. I can check it out during my only IRL corpse run.
different-church-lady
@Miss Bianca: As I understand it, the rainy season is July thru November. They went in on June 23.
Adam L Silverman
@Nicole: McMullin mounted an independent candidacy to give “principled conservatives” someone to vote for other than the President and Secretary Clinton. He was not an elector in any state.
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady: Wow, it’s really been that long?? *shudder*
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t think they anticipated the utter collapse of congressional patriotism. I didn’t either, and lord knows, I’ve been cynical about politics for decades now. It does not surprise me that Republican congresscritters would put up with an incompetent, vulgar, abusive nitwit in the Oval Office, but I did not foresee their wholesale capitulation to a hostile foreign power.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodingers_cat: No, they were flawed humans with feet of clay and blind spots. The didn’t envision someone that someone unfit who sought the presidency would actually get elected because they couldn’t envision it happening on their watch. If anything they had a far too optimistic view of their experiment and of the humans that were part of it, then reality dictated. Of course they’d just pulled off a successful revolution against Britain, so they were a wee bit over enthusiastic.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: If May in fact “spiked” Johnson, it might have something to do with the Brexit interference inquiry?
rikyrah
@Adam L Silverman:
I do think that the revelations of foreign interference have definitely pushed along the resignations.
raven
@The Moar You Know: I was a WSI and ran the 5 city pools here. One time I was a party on a river and a drunken friend got himself down a steep bank into the water and was hanging on a brach. I heard him yelling and got to him. He was near panic and begging me to save him. I laid on the bank and grabbed his hand and said “that’s it, I’m not getting in the water because you’ll kill us both but I won’t let you go either until we get help.” My yelling brought more people and we go him out. No fucking way I was going in that shit with him.
schrodingers_cat
@different-church-lady: Source? Wikipedia says monsoon arrives in Mumbai on July 10, they have got the date wrong by a month.
rikyrah
@Aimai:
I know this sounds cliche, but it’s horrible that this happened, but,this coach was supposed to be in this position. That the totality of his life’s experiences was meant for this moment. ..I know that sounds crazy.
Nicole
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks; it’s not the first time I remembered something wrong. Now I have to go Google to find out who that western elector was (is).
Come to think of it, I think my sister-in-law voted for McMullen because she, under no circumstances, could bring herself to vote for Trump. She gets no brownie points from me, as she lives in Pennsylvania.
Adam L Silverman
@gwangung: The flaw in your cunning plan is that most bigots and racists have no shame.
Amir Khalid
@different-church-lady:
Weather being what it is, there’s never a firm date for the start of monsoon season.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: And this is well before BUDS and NAVSECGRU!
The Lodger
@different-church-lady: And now the ad at lower left is running a video about preventing food waste. Apropos of nothing :)
Adam L Silverman
@Nicole: Some guy from Texas. He’s running for Congress. Calls himself the Hamilton elector. He tweets. There was also a Democratic elector in Washington state that refused to cast his vote for Clinton.
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: Not the exact date and hour perhaps, but the start of monsoon is pretty predictable
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker:
The thing is, it’s not like after the election their capitulation was something that was yet to come. It had already happened–the Russia owning of Congressional Republicans. It goes back years. Russia has been working on it for decades. We just didn’t see it happening.
When Trump got elected it was kind of a done deal. Of course they would capitulate because Russia owns them and was blackmailing them for their cooperation. Of course it helps that a lot of them want the same things Russia wants, so that works out well for them. Not us, of course.
There were people warning us about Russia’s cultivating of our politicians and their financial investment into things like the NRA, but those warnings were largely unheeded. The extent of it is shocking because we didn’t see the build up. It feels like Republicans capitulated all at once, but it didn’t really happen like that. We just are seeing the end result.
Adam L Silverman
@The Lodger: Balloon Juice knows all. Sees all…//
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: I think most of the defecting electors were Democratic electors who refused to vote for Hillary.
germy
@Betty Cracker:
Substitute with “considerable TV time” and the quote is completely about #45.
Nicole
@Adam L Silverman: that’s right! At the time I tweeted at him an example of how his principled whine didn’t hold water and how he could easily justify casting a vote for Clinton. Needless to say, he did not reply.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: There was one Democratic one in Washington state that did that. There was the Republican in Texas. Not sure there were any others.
BC in Illinois
On the cabinet resignations in the UK, from a British Twitter account
Also on that thread:
stinger
@Shell:
Hahahaha — I got *more than one* mental image outta that comment!
Aimai
@rikyrah: I know. I feel the same way. People make mistakes. I don’t feel the need to llook for revenge on one kid—he is young—when we really are deflecting our anger and rage at ICE, TRUMP, and ourselves for failing to protect the children at our borders and our country itself. Lots of people react to fear and shame by wanting to locate someone to blame. Totally unnecessary in this case. I don’t want to participate in ritualized attack on one guy even if its just blowhard blog comment.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
[S]ome electors did break with how their state voted, albeit in unexpected ways. In Washington, a state Clinton won by 16 points, the former secretary of state received just eight of the state’s 12 electoral votes. Colin Powell received three votes and Native American tribal leader Faith Spotted Eagle received one as part of an effort to promote a candidate other than Trump.
An elector in both Maine and Minnesota attempted to cast a ballot for Bernie Sanders, who unsuccessfully challenged Clinton in the Democratic primary. However state laws requiring electors to follow the statewide vote invalidated both efforts.
In all, five electors who were supposed to support the Democratic ticket ended up breaking ranks — one backed an independent senator, three supported a Republican from George W. Bush’s cabinet, and one voted for a Native American activist — while two Republican electors also bucked the GOP ticket, leaving Ohio Gov. John Kasich and former Rep. Ron Paul with one vote each.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bizarre-election-ends-bizarre-electoral-college-tally
ruemara
@Yarrow: Lefty electors. If you were a “democratic” elector and refused to vote for HRC, you should have as much safety from public heckling as any member of this administration.
@BC in Illinois: I wonder when May will be forced out. She puts the idea of weak leadership to shame. Is there something for less than weak? Puerile?
Calouste
@Adam L Silverman: Miller looks like two sashimi would make him a three-course meal, with leftovers for tomorrow.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
Yep. I still remember a TV interview with that smarmy bastard Paul Ryan early in the election cycle when the Republicans were supposedly still suspicious of Trump. Ryan insured his questioner that constitutional processes and strong leadership would prevent a rogue president Trump from going to far.
It’s also hard to see how far this will go. The GOP leadership loves using Trump as a reliable rubber stamp on their own policy, but they are also enabling his demolition of the Constitution and the country itself.
Major Major Major Major
The hip thing on twitter right now is to point out how this storm has also been killing dozens of people and affecting millions of others, so suck on that, sensationalist media sheeple!
Twitter is stupid.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: MY old man’s tin can worked with the UDT guys and he had big respect for them.
Yarrow
@ruemara:
That would be a no confidence vote in Theresa May.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Too many people think contrarianism is power.
Humdog
@Amir Khalid: Please excuse my ignorance, but this time at a monastery, this makes them a novice, yes? It must take further time and practice before you become a monk. Anyone who is out of a profession at 25 hasn’t spent a lot of time on their own building up experience or knowledge.
Surely they aren’t nearly as cloistered as some of our US evangelical devout. I would never follow the lead of a 25 year old, home schooled, Liberty university grad even if it was simply for a trip to the grocery store.
germy
A Trump head squirrel feeder
Critters love it.
ruemara
@Yarrow: She has been spectacularly unspectacular. All those people thinking she was Lady Iron Britches come back and she’s more Lady Tinfoil. Yet Corbyn is not exactly looking strong either. Curiouser & curiouser.
@Humdog: Most monasteries take them in as very young children. You could retire at 25 and have been a monk for 15 years. Look, this was probably the last hike before monsoon season. But I think people are going to have to toss the idea of a schedule for monsoons that matches what was usual.
Betty Cracker
@Yarrow: Good points. I don’t have a clue how deep it goes in the party, but my sense is some are directly compromised and some are merely spineless, greedy assholes. In any case, it was enough, and here we are.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: it certainly gets you attention, and that’s the only twitter metric that matters.
VOR
@raven: The Animal Planet show “River Monsters” often had episodes which speculate that fish could pull people underwater. The host did some testing and found that it really needed very little to pull a strong, full-sized human underwater. A 40lb fish was capable.
It has been decades, but when I took lifeguard classes they were very clear that you should do everything you can from a distance and that grabbing a panicking person in the water was extremely risky. I can’t imagine what it would be like in a confined, dark space like a flooded cave.
germy
@Betty Cracker: Ryan (at first) denied the conversation had taken place (“Bought by the Russians? We’re family and this stays in the family”). Then, when he found out the conversation had been taped, he fell back on “We were just joking.”
raven
@VOR: Yup
Amir Khalid
@Humdog:
I know about the rite-of-passage thing, but I have no idea if Buddhist monasteries consider every young man who passes through a novice or a monk.
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
That’s the thing. They never figured on one branch of the government would completely abdicate their duty.
schrodingers_cat
Kitteh steals the show.
Platonailedit
The chinese are better at this game than the fraud punk.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: @rikyrah: More like one party. But the founders didn’t anticipate the party system, either, did they.
Platonailedit
Miss Bianca
@germy: Except, of course, there’s never any such thing as “We were just joking.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: @germy: I think Ryan and a lot others thought that Russia, and racism, and corruption, and everything else, would be more of a drag on trump’s numbers, and theirs, than they have been. I wonder when he actually decided he was walking away, and if the original plan was a very dramatic and ‘principled’ repudiation of trump to set himself up for 2020, and now he’s just slinking away to graze in the tall grass.
Speaking of 2020, Politico (because of course Politico) has a piece today speculating Ben Sasse may be gearing up for that principled challenge, because he’s ‘refused to bow‘ to trump. Near as I can tell, said refusal to bow consists of about a dozen tweets over the last dozen months.
Domestic short hair tabby (fka vheidi)
@Amir Khalid: *like*
Miss Bianca
@schrodingers_cat: “ooh, baby, I just love it when you start talking about the secret police!”
Love how he just calmly twitches kitty tail out of his face.
Aleta
About Ekapol Chanthawong, the assistant soccer coach in Thailand. (Straits Times of Singapore)
Fwiw, Re Puff’s talk of decompression, I was told by a geologist/adventurer that pressure in the cave is not a problem (water is not deep enough).
Aleta
@Miss Bianca: And then just holds his tail and keeps talking. As the cat slides around to nuzzle his ear.
Robert Sneddon
@Yarrow: His activist supporters refused to campaign with him because they think the Chequers agreement he signed up to is too weak and not Brexitty enough for their tastes, a soft Brexit, bending the knee to the foreign tyrant that is the European Court of Justice and partly remaining in a Customs union with the EU. A lot of Tory supporters want a hard Brexit, a “wogs start at Calais” approach to border controls and “free trade” with the rest of the world etc. Brexit was the only way the Tories could keep those folks from going off and voting UKIP again but it’s proving harder to achieve a satisfactory Brexit than most Leavers expected.
Someone explained it to me recently, an “aha” moment — the British government is trying to negotiate the terms and conditions of Britain’s relationship with the EU after Brexit with a rulebook. The EU “negotiators” they’re meeting with have no power to agree anything that won’t be ratified by twenty-seven other governments months from now if at all, and any one member of the EU can veto any modification to the existing EU rules. All the EU employees they’re talking to can say is “no, this can’t be done under the existing rules” or “that might work under the existing rules.” They are powerless to change the rules or make new rules up, that’s up to the entire EU i.e. the twenty-seven other sovereign governments who have other things to worry about. For Britain Brexit is all-important, for the other members of the EU the form Brexit takes is a minor side-issue which doesn’t affect them that much. After March 2019 Britain becomes another nation outside the EU like North Korea or Somalia, to be treated as such, a minor part of their interests.
Lyrebird
@Humdog:
Honored Sir Khalid knows more than I do, but I can tell you that in much of SE Asia, kids are sometimes given to monasteries to dedicate their lives to spiritual things, a la Samuel in the Hebrew Bible. Sometimes they are taken in when they have nowhere else to go.
I wouldn’t follow the lead of whoever you mentioned, either, but there’s a whole lot of We Just Don’t Know between here, assuming you’re also in the US, and there.
Back to praying and/or wishing for safe evacuations… and safe reuniting of kids here on this continent, too!
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
They were against faction, or parties, because they saw how they abusive they were in England. But the founders also created American political parties.
Coming back to an earlier question:
Does any nation’s constitution provide detailed means of preventing or getting rid of despots?
I tend to think that despots gleefully suspend their constitutions if they can get away with it. I also think that Supreme Courts have tried to intervene when permitted by otherwise despotic rulers (I think maybe this happened in Pakistan, for example, in order to resolve some questions of leadership). But we have seen the leader of Turkey suspend constitutional guarantees. And Poland is currently dealing with attempts to weaken its Supreme Courts.
MattF
@Platonailedit: Mistreatment and humiliation of people who work for him is Trump’s policy. It’s consistent and premeditated, it’s how he rolls.
germy
@Brachiator:
Second Amendment!
(sarcasm font)Kay
Every state with a ballot process can do this.
It’s more important than ever now, with a Supreme Court that is openly hostile to voting rights and such a lousy, low quality attorney general in charge of enforcing/following existing law.
Give voters a way to get around the powerful people blocking voting and protecting their own incumbency.
People want elections to run smoothly. A small far Right minority want to make it as inconvenient and difficult to vote as possible. They WANT voting to suck, and as few people to participate as possible. Get around them.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodingers_cat:
What a great clip! And I was delighted to see this comment from Joyce Carol Oates:
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: In a parliamentary system, fresh elections can be called when the ruling party loses a confidence motion. Since the prime minister is the head of the party/coalition with most votes in the lower house a new leader can be chosen by an internal election (like May replacing Cameron after Brexit)
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Actually, they didn’t envision a political party so corrupt that they would conspire with a foreign power to not only elect a totally unfit asshole, but do everything possible to keep him in power.
They never envisioned Congress being willing to completely abdicate their duties and responsibilities and make themselves subordinate to the executive branch.
We have a Congress problem. The Republican Congress has the power to impeach Trump, and they never will no matter what he does, because they’re just as corrupt as he is.
Kay
Pennsylvania has antiquated voting laws. They have a Democratic governor. The Democratic base cares about voting rights, especially now that they’re so fragile and we could lose them.
This is good government and it’s good politics. Make voting easier, more modern, more convenient, better-run. The far Right will hate it but the vast majority of the public will appreciate it.
Mary G
I think I read where the team goes into the cave often, but wanted to go farther in than usual, and I assume, talked the coach into it. The assistant coach exercised poor judgment. but come on.The fact that he was able to get all of them out of the flood waters and keep them alive and sane for NINE DAYS IN DARKNESS makes him a hero to me and not somebody who should be prosecuted. I also believe that he is actually in the worst shape, because he didn’t eat any of the little food they had with them, but refuses to come out until all the kids are safe.
kattails
Cave rescue–hope that all will be rejoicing soon. The twitter thread was instructional and terrifying.
@rikyrah: Thanks, will call. They’re (senators/congresswoman) going to have my phone #, zip code and voice memorized pretty soon.
Mike in DC
@Robert Sneddon: The question is whether the opposition will be able to consolidate the Remain voters plus the “Regret” voters by running on an explicit annulment policy, in the event this chaos leads to new elections.
Aleta
@MattF:
Iirc He got 2 raises in that time. T took away his health benefits in exchange for the second raise. Hours on duty were potentially unlimited; from early morning until the end of the T family nighttime schedule.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
They have no shame, but they really hate being publicly shamed. That’s why they’re whining about it.
Moar public shaming needed. It won’t make them better people, but at least they’ll know that we hate them.
KSinMA
@Adam L Silverman: Wouldn’t that be a good thing!
germy
@Aleta:
Never a good idea to piss off one’s driver or one’s barber.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
Ha! I think you’re right. And yet the conventional wisdom of techno-weenies is that the group mind of the Internets is much wiser than individuals.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Remember when “The Lincoln Bedroom” was a huge scandal?
he also doubled the membership fees, IIRC within a week of election day. The Palm Beach old guard who had been snubbing him for decades all came running with their checkbooks open
rb
The coach made a catastrophic mistake, but deserves medals all the same for keeping those kids alive, sane, and in a place that was at once safe from the rising floodwaters and yet conceivably within the reach of rescue.
For 9 days, alone, and himself barely more than a kid.
People who want his head on a pike are displacing their rage at our collective impotence in protecting children in our own backyards. Every kid safely rescued from that cave represents a superhuman achievement an enormous portion of which can be credited to that coach.
Miss Bianca
@rb: I’m not sure that I’ve seen anyone calling for his head on a pike. Or, indeed, do anything but question his judgment, which is hardly the same thing, IMO. YMMV
Adam L Silverman
@raven: They were a special breed.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: I think the shameless part applies mostly to the leaders. But even they can be inconvenienced, irritated and vexed by shame. And if they’re forced into social isolation? That might have its good effects.
But the underlings? The associates? They have more shame, and the effect they have on the leaders might be beneficial. I hear lots of whining from them already…
Just One More Canuck
@Steve in the ATL:
You’d be a perfect TV pundit
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
Global warming, anyway? Unusually severe weather systems that spin up earlier than they normally do?
I’m not willing to blame that coach for getting trapped by global warming.
Spanky
@SiubhanDuinne: So she’s looking for Blofeld, then?
Aimai
@Miss Bianca: two posters here ON THIS THREAD are doing so. That is what we are responding to. Cermet and The Moar You Know.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
We do have a way to get rid of a despotic or incompetent president: impeachment.
What the Founders didn’t foresee was that Congress would be equally as despotic and refuse to do their duty.
rb
@Miss Bianca: They you’ve not heard the half of it. Comments on this board (“I want their coach in jail. Not optional. Those kids should all be dead, and someone did die as a direct result of his stupidity”) are comparatively tame and yet do the same work of treating his mistake as if it were intentional and completely discounting the incredible effort he’s made since.
Mnemosyne
@Miss Bianca:
Moar and a couple of others were calling for him to be prosecuted and imprisoned for his bad judgment. I disagree — he made a mistake, but then did everything in his power to mitigate it.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Yep.
J R in WV
I just want to say how much I respect the Thai Navy divers who have continued to be leaders, in spite of losing their comrade so recently. Going ahead in spite of fear is the definition of bravery in my book!
JGabriel
@dmsilev:
And with nothing but wanna-be Nazi Stephen Miller’s word to confirm it.
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne:
Traitors, ALL
Brachiator
@Robert Sneddon:
But I think that the UK will have to pay up to $50 billion to leave the EU, and negotiations have to be tough enough to prevent any other nation from leaving the EU and keeping EU-like trade relationships.
I don’t know squat about this stuff, but watch and listen to some UK satirical programs that regularly mock the UK’s stupidity in approaching BREXIT negotiations. The official BBC news story repeated Tory praise for recently resigned BREXIT negotiator David Davis, but he was satirically savaged as an ineffectual “BREXIT Bulldog” who could not even walk and chew gum at the same time.
There was also mockery over Theresa May considering a “no deal deal” as one of the BREXIT options.
The hard news stories I read seem to confirm the satire, but as a total outsider who loosely follows these stories, I cannot sort out all the biases. YouTube pops up video clips of discussions on a couple of UK tv and talk radio programs, and the BREXIT supporters seem to my eyes and ears to be full of shit.
A quick example:
James Picks Apart Caller’s Arguments For The Tories Being Strong On The Economy
But this bites them in the ass, hard, when it comes to Ireland/Northern Ireland.
Miss Bianca
@Aimai: Note that I said “That I’ve seen.” Obviously, I am not only NOT familiar with all Internet traditions, I even occasionally miss some comments on threads. That being said, I’m not sure any of us, no matter how well-informed we think we are, can say that we know exactly what happened, why, and how. I don’t think the guide should have taken them back in there, but I’m just some asshole who knows squat.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
This works for regular rough and tumble of politics. It does not account for despots.
And with May replacing Cameron, this was just one weak conservative leader being replaced by another weak conservative leader. This is just everyday politics.
@Mnemosyne:
The strength, and weakness, of democracy is that it ultimately depends of the goodwill of the citizens and their leaders, not hard rules laid down to be followed blindly.
Also, I think it is more that the 25th amendment sought to more formally address dealing with an incompetent president.
With Trump, we have a manifestly unfit president, which his own party refuses to deal with because they can still benefit from his misrule.
J R in WV
@germy: So, first Ryan showed us he was a lying ratfucker and then falsely claimed to be joking… so, proof he’s a LIAR!
The Lodger
@Kay: Unlike Michigan, and most Western states, Pennsylvania has no initiative and referendum process AND NEVER WILL BECAUSE NO ONE GOES AROUND THE PENNSYLVANIA LEGISLATURE THAT’S WHY.
(I only worked there for seven years. That was enough to make me permanently cynical about these things.)
JGabriel
@ruemara:
Given the popular vote loser currently occupying the West Wing, I’m not sure we Americans are in a position to criticize anyone else’s weak leadership.
Barbara
@ruemara: You should follow the Guardian. Latest posts suggest May is not going to be ousted over so-called Chequers agreement. Here area couple of the latest tweets:
Source
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Miss Bianca: It’s apparently a local “thing”, according to one of the Dutch divers working the rescue. “Sort of like an initiation for local young boys to… write your name on the wall and make it back.”
Be glad that they had their coach with them. Local reporting is convinced he’s kept them alive.
Msb
@evap
I read that two volunteers are leading the rescue effort because of their great experience, and both are Brits. Knighthoods all around, I hope!
Praying that all rescuers and kids/coach come out safely. I could sure do with some good news.
Ohio Mom
@raven: That is the bottom line for us everyday people without any special training program : Don’t try to save someone else if it clearly imperils your life. No sense in two people dying.
Variations of this advice are useful in many situations, e.g., Don’t loan out money you can’t afford to lose, no sense in two people being destitute, and so on.
On another note, I spend some time each day marveling that when I was young, I was extremely skeptical of right-winger’s Cold War paranoia. The Soviet Union’s idea of world domination starts with taking over that rinky-dink swamp of Vietnam? Give me a break.
But now I am sure Russia has pretty much staged a coup in my country and those right-wingers are either active accomplices or stone cold silent.
It is a constant source of cognitive dissonance.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
They figured the American public would simply rebel against a government too tyrannous to put up with.
The first attempts at government intentionally went with weak enforcement. Which didn’t work out well.
smedley the uncertain
@Amir Khalid: Concur.
The rush to judgement is disconcerting. The principals on the ground offer a different assessment.
Kent
Former cave diver and shipwreck diver here. I spent a good part of my 20s and 30s shipwreck diving in Alaska and cave diving in Florida and Mexico before hanging it up when I got married.
The tweets from puff are pretty on-target but I’m guessing that the crews running this operation are not trying to follow any kind of standard cave diving protocols because they are not dealing with experienced cave divers. So, for example I doubt they are using thin nylone twine for guidelines that cave divers would follow with their fingertips in black-out conditions, but probably very heavy duty nylon rope that can’t be broken. I also doubt they are using normal diving regulators but most likely full face diving masks with radios so they can stay in voice contact with the kids and give them instructions while exiting. Cave divers normally use a complicated set of light signals and hand signals to communicate underwater that you practice repeatedly.
Finally, this is the most scary type of cave diving that exists. Rain water is flooding through a dry cave system so it has most certainly stirred up all manner of soil and debris and the visibility underwater in those kinds of muddy conditions is almost certainly very close to zero. You can maybe see your hand if you put it 1″ from your face but that is about it. Otherwise you are completely blind. In an ordinary underwater cave one misplaced fin-kick or hand on the silt on the bottom of the cave can silt out the cave for hours before the water clears and you can see again. This kind of diving must be crazy. During cave diving training you do all kinds of practice scenarios such as exiting caves by feel following guidelines in black-out conditions. These kids have practiced none of that so will need to basically be carried through the cave except there are portions that are likely too narrow to pass side-by-side.
I expect they have support divers pre-positioning extra tanks all throughout the underwater portions of the cave as well. When currents are flowing it is very difficult to calculate air usage rates. You might use air 4x faster going against the current than with it. So there is a lot of prep work just getting the passageways ready for the rescue.
James E Powell
Saw this map of the cave through the Buzzfeed link in another thread.
I was rendered speechless. But this being the internet, I had to type that I was speechless.
Earl
@Kent: At bare minimum, I’d install a steel guide cable and anchor it into rock every 50 feet. They have the manpower. I’d also have those kids pumped full of Lorazepam and Xanax before I tried to pull them out.
I would be surprised if they’re using full face masks. I’m not sure how well those fit on a kid, and the problem is you have to clear without breathing. That’s fine for an experienced diver, but for kids on their first dive ever…
For those of you who haven’t had the experience, this is kind of what diving in a silt-out is like: https://youtu.be/I-9uShJirNQ?t=123
Ruckus
@Mary G:
Stupid White People?
Robert Sneddon
@Earl: Pulling several kilometres of steel cable through that cave using only the muscle power of a large team of divers would take several weeks to achieve, possibly longer. Drilling anchors every 15 metres or so, another few weeks. That workload on the workers who are already under heavy physical stress just diving in those conditions would kill more than a few of them, never mind the logistics divers moving air tanks, food etc. into the cave to staging points to provide for the work divers. No point, too long, too dangerous, gets in the way of getting the boys out of the cave.
As for the boys wearing full-face masks, they can’t be trained up to safely use SCUBA-type respirators in the time available. Smaller full-face masks for women and older childrens are available as regular dive equipment. The boys can be taught the basics of clearing such a mask but my guess is they’ll be told to leave them strictly alone — even if they fill with water and impede vision that’s not a problem since there’s no vision to start with. The support divers and the support people at various stages will recheck their masks each time after they surface and before they have to go into the next submerged section.
I’ve seen mention the boys may have been lightly sedated to reduce stress and hopefully eliminate any panic reflexes but they need to be awake and aware, able to propel themselves through the water, communicate with the divers accompanying them, follow instructions and walk or wade through the shallower parts of the cave as they come to them. Zonking them out too much is not a good idea.
Would you believe that the folks carrying out this operation are knowledgeable about diving generally and cave diving specifically and actually know what they’re doing and are doing things pretty much optimally to achieve the aims of the mission?
Kent
@Robert Sneddon:
Steel cable? Maybe. Although regular climbing rope that is fixed to the walls or cave floor with pitons and climbing carabiners would probably be more than adequate I would think. No one is going to tear that out.
I have no idea what kind of new military technology is out there for underwater communication. You are right, clearing an ordinary full face mask is a bitch. I think the important thing is allowing the rescuers to talk to the kids not vice versa. So as long as they have some kind of underwater headphones allowing the rescuers to talk to the kids underwater I think that is the important thing.
sgrAstar
@The Moar You Know: wow. You’re irredeemable. So judgemental, so sure of your opinions, so lacking in empathy and understanding. In all of this, you sound exactly like a republican.
Earl
@Kent: rock can be sharp, and it doesn’t need to be that sharp if tugging on the cable works it against edges. That’s part of the reason that standard cable wires are left somewhat slack.
Earl
@Robert Sneddon: You don’t know what you’re talking about. 1/8in steel rope: 500 ft, under 15 pounds. Given the effort to stage tanks, you could definitely get that done as well.
Would you believe you’re an asshole and we’re just sitting around thinking about the logistics? *I* would.
rb
@Miss Bianca: “Note that I said “That I’ve seen.” ”
What was your point in contradicting me if you were going to retreat to this?
smedley the uncertain
@Yarrow: agreed