It used to be you didn’t criticize the President when they were overseas. That had to be done away with because we had a Kenyan Muslim BLACK President. Now, we just witnessed the spectacle of an American President hugging it out with a hostile foreign dictator and trashing the previous candidate and the Democratic Party.
If Barack Obama had stood next to Putin and trashed the Republicans and John McCain after beating him in the previous election the rightwing would be calling for firing squads. He didn’t do that, but they called for firing squads anyway.
These people are fucking monsters. Trump, Pence, the whole god damned party have got to go.
eemom
Yeah, but who’s gonna make ’em?
trollhattan
Today would be a good time to start.
Can we call the Orkin man for general cleanup at the White House and the Capitol?
rikyrah
TRAITORS, ALL – Cole.
TRAITORS, ALL.
The Ancient Randonneur
This would have gone down real well with the bleating heart conservatives.
Mnemosyne
They made a deal with the devil to stay in power, and now the devil is cashing in his markers. They can’t reveal what Putin is doing without putting themselves at risk of prosecution, so they say a bunch of weak-ass shit and cringe back down, hoping they won’t get punished for doing so.
I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Russian hackers release a bunch of stolen info about one of the Republicans to keep the rest in line. Lindsey Graham sure jumped back in line when they revealed some nothingburgers that probably implied that they also had major somethingburgers for Graham. I’m just not sure if they would decide to take down a major Republican or a back-bencher who would serve as an example for the rest of what happens if you cross them.
guachi
I retire from the Navy in December 2021. I would like a different President’s name on my retirement paperwork.
The Ancient Randonneur
I want him strapped to the same gurney they used for McVeigh.
bluehill
The repubs have slipped down the slope. They have rationalized the Russian attack so much already that this doesn’t seem like such a big deal. Putin must feel pretty confident about his ability to determine the outcome of the mid-term elections because he’s not even trying to hide his control over Trump.
Chyron HR
Yes, but Hillary Clinton only wanted to raise the national minimum wage by $5/hour. Please try to keep things in perspective.
Mike J
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@eemom:
We will
Hungry Joe
I lean toward a simple explanation: Although dirty, perhaps treasonous deals went down, it’s unlikely that Trump is an active, willing agent of Russia. He’s just a privileged, narcissistic blowhard, not too bright to begin with, who’s in way over his head and falls several orders of brainpower magnitude short of realizing that. The GOP knows exactly what has gone on and what is going on, but their regressive, rapacious policies are being implemented, and they and their buddies are getting rich(er), so they’re cool with it.
Yarrow
I’m going to call my Rep and demand they draw up articles of impeachment. I think I’ll call my Senators and let them know how I feel about it as well.
Teddys Person
They wouldn’t just be calling for them, they’d be waiting on the tarmac when he got home.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
I am a single issue voter. My single issue?
It’s akin to the Gilliard Doctrine:
There are no Republicans of good and moral conscience. They are insane. Party before country.
Send them to electoral oblivion and shit like this stops. The real issue is convincing your Republican friends who have a moral conscience to start voting for Democrats. If they won’t do that, then convince them to stop voting because they’re simply contributing to the disaster. I actually have (now) half a dozen lifetime Repubs who vote Dem. They’re still rock-ribbed conservatives at heart but they just can’t stand seeing what’s happening.
Teddys Person
@Mnemosyne:
“I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Russian hackers release a bunch of stolen info about one of the Republicans to keep the rest in line.”
If they had anything on Jim Jordan, he’d be the perfect fall guy right now.
edit to remove block quote
JDM
It was never that you didn’t criticize a US president when they were overseas. Unless that president was a Republican.
wjs
But Marcy Wheeler says we shouldn’t use the word traitor because we have to take the high road.
Eff the high road. What everyone saw today with their own eyes was treason.
terraformer
They don’t care, because Trump’s on “their” team. We’ve long ago, long ago, established that hypocrisy doesn’t faze them. They. Don’t. Care.
The only thing we have left is to vote them out. But we don’t even know for sure that our elections can’t be hacked (well, we know they can be; we just don’t have proof yet). Then it’s a slippery slope indeed: no one believes that elections are fair, then they come for the lawyers (they are the one of the first groups to go because while they are officers of the court, they are not government employees). Once the rule of law is gone, it’s bye-bye civilization and back to bartertown.
Cermet
What surprise? This is what the repub’s have been since ray-gun (in the open) and somewhat more hidden back to nixon. This is the party of white, wealthy males in the real elite and has been for some time. The orange gas bag just doesn’t even try and hide this FACT at all.
jimmiraybob
If we aren’t witnessing collusion in the commission of treason then these words needs to be removed from use. Secret agreements, possibly illegal, with a hostile foreign power? Attacking legitimate allies and attacking every possible democratic norm and institution? Benedict Arnold just called and is demanding a GOP application form and an immediate apology.
Mandalay
Some good news from the Court Stenographer’s twitter account:
In the 24 hours preceding that announcement she’d sent over 70 tweets.
And she’s the last person on earth to be delivering a homily about “helping the discourse”.
Adam L Silverman
@Hungry Joe: Correct, he is psychologically and temperamentally and emotionally far too unstable to be a directly controlled asset. The question is whether he was an unwitting or witting asset. Unwitting has been lapped several times by witting.
maya
I come from a family of Republicans- mom, dad, brother, sister, aunts, uncles, grandparents, the works. They are all gone now. Luckily for them.
A Ghost To Most
@wjs
“
EffFUCK the high road. What everyone saw today with their own eyes was FUCKINGtreason.”
/fuck civility
The Dangerman
Some entity is going to have to say “Fuck this”; I don’t know if it’s 25th time or Coup (I can’t believe I’m typing that word, but they are the ones that will get hit first when things go to shit at the DMZ in Korea or in the Baltics when Russia invades), but this can’t wait until 2020 any more.
trollhattan
@wjs:
Did you hear the interview with her during yesterday’s “On the Media”? Eye-popping stuff about pre-election disinformation she’s caught up in.
ruemara
@Hungry Joe: You, sir, are absolutely being naive. The man has a fascination with Russia going back to the 80’s. His wives, with one exception, are both from satellite states of Russia. He is a fucking traitor who deserves a traitor’s reward. He is entirely witting, and complicit. His narcissism is a bonus, as well as his general mental instability, but make no mistake, this crook is a willing traitor.
James E Powell
What’s the over/under on how all this impacts Trump’s approval rating?
It’s probably the only part of this continuing nightmare that really surprises me.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I am reading Kotkin’s Stalin; Waiting for Hitler and it struck me how much that conference today seemed like something out some ’30s Communist propaganda film contrasting the evil, feeble, failing Capitalist social parasite with the vicarious Soviet man of the future. Surprised Putin didn’t give Trump a top hat but a soccer ball makes in it own statement with soccer being more popular than American sports.
Haydnseek
@guachi: I feel you. As Governor of California, Ronald Reagan’s signature is on my college diploma. I looked it over once to check for typos more than anything else, then just filed it away. A friend who graduated with me found a company who molded his diploma into a clear acrylic toilet seat cover. I didn’t have the money, or I would have done the same.
MisterForkbeard
@Chyron HR: I know, right? An 80% increase rather than a 110% increase. The monster.
Mnemosyne
@Hungry Joe:
This would fit with his narcissism. One of the things that drives people insane when trying to deal with a narcissist is that they have no concept of right and wrong, only what they want to do and what’s standing in their way.
It’s completely plausible to me that Trump would decide to work with the Russians because it’s good for him and never pause for a second to think about whether or not it would be good for the country. If it’s good for him personally, and he’s the president, then it’s good for the country, because it’s what he wants and what he wants is always right. QED.
schrodingers_cat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I agree, that’s where i am too. I don’t want to debate them, or be understanding of their concerns, I want to stop them.
MisterForkbeard
@Mandalay: Perhaps she could help the discourse by actually identifying the literal traitor running the country right now. You’d think that might be valuable information for her readers.
@trollhattan: By “caught up”, do you mean she found out about it? Or was involved?
PeakVT
Traitors, from top to bottom. Trump, Pence, Ryan, McConnell, and all other Republicans in Congress.
Disband the Republican Party.
California Stars
Wondering how this is playing out internally with the FBI. I mean, I’m guessing they’re mostly Republicans, but are they also mostly Trumpists? Have they surrendered to Dear Tweeter’s autocratic charm? Or does this mean war?
Brachiator
It usta’ be that the President didn’t say crazy shit while overseas.
It usta’ be that the President didn’t sell out his or her own country to an adversary.
Trump has changed all that. Crazy thing is that Obama was accused of being a commie anti-colonial un-American Kenyan born Muslim interloper who neither loved nor understood the United States.
And yet, here we have Ignoramus-in-Chief Donald Trump, aka Putin’s Puddle who dutifully sold America to Putin and his oligarchs, and white conservative dopes are applauding The Orange Puke harder than Sean Hannity at a Fox Christmas Party.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
See my reply to Hungry Joe: Trump is absolutely a traitor, but he didn’t do it because he hates America or because he loves Mother Russia. He did it because he benefited and nothing else matters to him. If he benefited, that’s more than enough for him to agree.
We were sold out to our enemies for the greater glory of Donald J. Trump. No more, and no less.
Adam L Silverman
@James E Powell: Won’t move the needle much. His hard floor is around 36 to 37% and ceiling at around 41%. And remember, when they poll registered or identified Republicans, this means that all the Republicans that, because of the President, have reregistered as independents or who no longer identity as Republicans even though they’ll reliably vote Republican, aren’t included in that portion of the sample. Which drives the Republican support numbers for the President up because the overall population is smaller.
chris
“I want to see the server.”
Yeah, about that.
The Midnight Lurker
@guachi: Yeah, I would too. The way things are going, you’re likely to wind up in Muller’s office.
Calouste
@The Dangerman: I think that OfPutin agreeing w his owner that they basically should exchange information on spies (despite of course the Russians already been exposed in Mueller’s indictments), should have some US spooks literally fear for their lives.
And to quote that well-known philosopher Ordell Robbie: “Now that, my friend, is a clear cut case of him or me. And you best believe it ain’t gonna be me.”
Mnemosyne
@chris:
I don’t know if they’re trolls, but I’ve seen people online insisting that you need to physically inspect the server to really get the full story.
If they’re not trolls, they’re people who don’t seem to understand how this whole “technology” thing works. Maybe they think that the FBI needs to personally interview the tiny wizards who make the internet stuff happen inside the magic box. ?♂️
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Mandalay:
The Trump Whisperer is most likely “taking a break” from Twitter because she regularly gets thrashed up one side and down the other when she posts one of her usual propaganda pieces.
I will say that the left has finally gotten the memo about how to work the umps on Twitter, aka the Corporate Media, like the right did in print media for the better part of 2 decades.
The Midnight Lurker
Remember what Cicero said. And he was a rich conservative.
Cheryl Rofer
@California Stars: Not quite what you’re asking, but here is DNI Dan Coats’s statement.
Adam L Silverman
@chris: This was first reported in 2016. It is, perhaps, one of the dumber of the President’s talking points deflections.
Hungry Joe
@Adam L Silverman: I suspect that Trump isn’t capable of being “witting” about much of anything. He could do Putin’s bidding and then — about 90 seconds later — believe that he’s standing up to him.
The Midnight Lurker
@guachi: Nixon’s is on mine.
Adam L Silverman
Expert trolling by BBC America. They’re currently showing the repeat of Start Trek the Next Generation that deals with a Romulan covert operative who is posing as a Vulcan ambassador who the crew of the Enterprise unwittingly returns to the Romulans.
Hungry Joe
@ruemara: I admit, you may be right.
The Dangerman
@Calouste:
Just guessing, but, after Valerie Plame, coupled with how Trump treats his intelligence services, information at the individual “spook” level is rigidly controlled. A lot of our secrets are no longer secrets because of Trump, but actual lives … I dunno.
Michael Bersin
@wjs:
My response to someone who suggested we all take the “high road”:
#SellingOutYourCountryToABrutalDictatorSummit was too long, so #TreasonSummit works for me. Just for the sake of brevity. Oh, that and accuracy.
The Midnight Lurker
@Adam L Silverman: I hate to disagree with the SilverMAN, but assets come in all shapes and sizes and emotional temperament. It’s a matter of finding the right ASSet for the right (T)reason. Please don’t hit me.
Mnemosyne
Also, too, people who have never had to deal with a narcissist would be astounded to see how far they’re willing to go in order to crush or hurt someone for what seems like a very minor offense or insult. It’s absolutely plausible that a toxic narcissist like Trump would betray his country just because he feels like it.
He doesn’t have a deep motive for all of this. He’s not a mole or an ideological spy. He decided that he wanted to do it, so he did it. Looking for a deeper motive or conspiracy is a mug’s game.
Tokyokie
@PeakVT:
The contours of the Russian interference in the 2016 election and the Republicans’ encouragement of it seem sufficiently distinct for the GOP to be declared an ongoing interstate criminal enterprise, per the RICO statute.
wjs
@trollhattan: I have read enough to conclude that, because she was once very credible, she is exactly the type of person who needs to be compromised.
If she felt the need to burn a source, why did she publish in the first place? They used her.
Feathers
@Haydnseek: if you tell them you need a replacement diploma, it will come with the current governor’s signature. My former boss had to include a copy of her diploma with her tenure packet. She got a kick over the fact that it was “signed” by Schwarzenegger.
Adam L Silverman
@The Midnight Lurker: I’m not going to hit you, but the intel ops guys I know, who handled foreign nationals as controlled assets, are all in agreement that the President is psychologically, temperamentally, and emotionally unfit to be a controlled asset for the simple reason that you can’t have a controlled asset that is uncontrollable. Both in terms of self control and by others. Basically it makes him to unreliable to be a controlled asset.
Roger Moore
@chris:
And he would glean about as much information from them as my cat would from a calculus textbook. Saying he wants to see the servers is just a stupid excuse for why he refuses to accept what he’s been told about the hack. Even if he knew the servers were available to be looked at and that the FBI had examined them, he’d just come up with another excuse for why he couldn’t believe Russia had hacked them.
wjs
@Michael Bersin: I love it.
Getting to this point before the mid-terms is shocking. People who have been very careful up to this point have emptied their bag of fucks to give.
Calouste
@Adam L Silverman: The news headline on the BBC website is now “Trump sides with Russia against FBI”. Literally.
The national broadcaster of America’s closest ally reports that the President of the US sides with a foreign country against America’s intelligence service. Let that sink in.
Cheryl Rofer
Butina was very active in connecting the NRA with Russians.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
I got nuthin’.
rikyrah
This Is the Moment of Truth for Republicans
The GOP can either defend the United States or serve the damaged and defective man who is now its president.
JAMES FALLOWS
12:40 PM ET
Cheryl Rofer
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Has James Fallows been asleep over the last decade, or is he just pretending to be asleep? The Rs are not going to do a damn thing against the Orange Menace.
The Midnight Lurker
@Adam L Silverman: Okay. But follow me on this: If you had a guy that was in a position to perform a function you needed performed, wouldn’t you try to turn that guy irregardless of his mental/emotional stability? Trump’s buttons are obvious and easy to press. Wouldn’t you take the shot?
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: Long overdue!
California Stars
@Cheryl Rofer: Thank you. That is vaguely reassuring. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if Coats were gone within the month.
ruemara
@Mnemosyne: Well, that’s Don & the Family. The rest of the GOP are more about the benjamins.
EBT
@jimmiraybob: At least Arnold was a skilled tactician and naval officer who Washington personally dicked over repeatedly.
rikyrah
@Cheryl Rofer:
UH HUH
UH HUH
Gin & Tonic
@Cheryl Rofer: Bad day for the NRA.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@James E Powell:
I agree with Adam’s response to this comment, in that it won’t unfortunately change public opinion, even though it absolutely should.
My parents, more so my mother, severely disappointed me last night. She quoted some idiot’s Facebook post about how the left is twisting things Trump is saying, such as:
Trump never said you couldn’t get an abortion, he just said you had to pay for it.
Trump just thinks immigrants should come in the right way and that he’s keeping us safe.
Etcetera…
I of course objected to these and she was amazed that I would, thinking I could like at least some things about Trump. I was having none of it. I said that Americans have become cowardly and afraid of everything since 9/11. That this wasn’t the America I wanted to live in.
She also kept calling Kim Jung Un “Rocket Man” and I snapped at her and called her a twit for calling him that. The worst part? She thought that because of some video showing Kim crying, that means Trump’s bully boy strategy is working. There was just so much wrong I had a hard time responding at first.
Of course the signs in Spanish down in south Florida got brought up and that the Cubans living there weren’t assimilating. My father got huffy because I tried pointing out to him that his life experiences don’t overrule the facts and that others’ life experiences are more relevant to certain issues than his.
Oh and my father also thought it was suspicious that he saw so many brown faces in the protest crowds in London. Told him it was because London is a multicultural city. It didn’t seem to take.
I really don’t get them. One day my mother will say she dislikes Trump and then a couple days later she comes up with shit like what I described above. My father was the biggest shock. I don’t why, but I thought he had a stronger center than that.
It’s as if they don’t have a firm political core like I do, with strong convictions or something. I mean, it’s fine to have an open mind, but you keep the bigger picture in sight and not just fall for stupid shit.
Omnes Omnibus
@EBT: What navy was he in? Also, doesn’t going over to the British suggest that Washington might have had reason not to trust him?
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
Benjamins + white supremacy. Way too many Republicans are motivated by out-and-out white supremacy, and way too many white “liberals” secretly or subconsciously agree with them.
Emerald
The simple fact, obvious at the time although nobody (including me) saw it, was that Mitch McConnell had no motive for stopping Merrick Garland’s SCOTUS appointment unless he knew—KNEW–that the next president would be a Republican.
Even more than Orangimandius, I want to see McConnell in stripes.
Mnemosyne
@The Midnight Lurker:
I think that “turning” someone has a specific meaning in the intelligence field. It’s not just working with someone for a mutual goal, which is what Trump and Putin seem to be doing. Trump could be working with Putin of his own free will on mutual goals, which would not count as him being “turned.”
(Hopefully Adam and/or Cheryl will respond, but that’s my understanding.)
D Gardner
@Mandalay: When I first saw this news about Mags, I went to my Twitter feed and realized that I had already un-followed her. I’d like to un-follow her again, but it’s a binary semaphore.
SiubhanDuinne
@guachi:
I know what you mean. When I retired from the Government of Canada, Stephen Harper was PM, so his signature is the one on my long-service certificate. If only I had hung in there for another couple of years, I could have had Justin!
Tokyokie
@Emerald:
You’re more generous than I am. After his conviction on treason charges, I’d like to see his head on a pike permanently decorating the Francis Scott Key Bridge.
Mandalay
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Jeff Flake is getting crucified for this tweet:
That’s all fine and dandy, but everyone is now pointing out that all Flake ever does is tut-tut, and tweet his disapproval; he’s all talk and no action. Flake is despised by the left just as much as he is by the right.
The Midnight Lurker
@Mnemosyne: Ahh, maybe it’s the word ‘turning’. Putin needs that oil to start flowing and the sanctions lifted. His buddies are getting impatient. He knows (knew) if Hillary got elected, his goose was cooked. So he went with the Hail Mary. Anyway, that’s where my thinking leads me, but I am old and senile. Hey, think I can get a job with Putin betraying my country?
Cheryl Rofer
@Mnemosyne: I have long pondered whether Trump is a fellow traveler (consciously in agreement with Putin’s goals and working toward them) or a useful idiot (manipulable or wandering in Putin’s direction with minimal pushes). I still can’t tell. The arrest of Marina Butina may help to clarify that, but I don’t think we’ll get anything decisive until Mueller’s investigation is over. Maybe not even then.
mike in dc
Next we’re going to find out…from RT first!…what concessions Trump made to Putin during their private meeting.
Not only do we need to GOTV, we need to keep an eye out for fuckery of all kinds.
Tokyokie
@Cheryl Rofer: As I’ve mentioned before, I think Putin’s overall aim is the destruction of the rule of law worldwide. In such an environment, a nuke-wielding kleptocratic thug would reign supreme. Trump, on the other hand, shares Putin’s contempt for the rule of law, but only to the extent that he knows he’s subject to it because of his lifelong criminal wrongdoing.
EBT
@Omnes Omnibus: I confused his use of ships along the Hudson with being in the Navy, he was a skilled Continental Army officer. 2. If my boss keeps promising me things and then gives them to other people as a habit; I am getting a new boss.
geg6
@Cheryl Rofer:
I don’t understand why he can’t be both. Doesn’t have to be either/or. It can definitely be both.
Adam L Silverman
@The Midnight Lurker: We’re arguing two different things. There’s a difference between having leverage over someone and then using them, despite them being erratic and either recruiting or accepting as a walk in, a human asset for direct control. Do you understand the difference I, and other HUMINTers, are making?
Mandalay
@schrodingers_cat:
True so far, but there is one thing that will change that scenario: if Trump endangers the chances of Republicans getting re-elected.
Right now the media focuses on Democrats like Heidi Heitkamp being in danger of losing their seats, but there are some Republicans in the same situation. And if denouncing Trump will get any Republicans re-elected they will do it in a heartbeat.
And the same goes for Republicans considering running for president in 2020. Guys like Cruz and Rubio don’t say a word against Trump while he wreaks havoc, but that silence can come back to haunt them in a presidential campaign.
The Midnight Lurker
@Adam L Silverman: Not arguing, sir. Not arguing, (crawls back into hidey hole).
Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot
@eemom:
That is the most salient question, isn’t it?
Approximately half the electorate are just fine with Trump and the GOP in general. Actually, they’re a bit disappointed — they wish things were even “worse” (as we would see it). Assholes running things is exactly what that conservative half of the electorate want, and they’re getting it (for the most part). And half the potential electorate who seldom (if ever) even bother to vote don’t really give much of a shit either way.
That’s the uphill battle we’re in.
Adam L Silverman
@Mandalay: Actually he took decisive action. He decided to retire.
SiubhanDuinne
PUTIN: If it’ll make you guys feel better, our wonderful Russian intelligence services would be glad to look at everything Mueller has. We can run our own analyses on the data. Or we can … I know, we can work together on the investigation!
TRUMP: What a generous, selfless offer!!
NARRATOR: You know how when you write a complaint to Papa John’s explaining that their pizza made you so sick you were hospitalised for a week, it cost you $30,000, you lost your job because of missing work, and you still feel queasy most days — and they write back offering you coupons for a year’s worth of free Papa John’s pizza? That.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:
Drink your victory gin, Winston
Adam L Silverman
@The Midnight Lurker: No need to crawl away. Or go anywhere. I’m describing technical differences in regard to sources and assets. That’s it.
Haydnseek
@Feathers: Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know that. By now though I’ve come to see it as some sort of twisted badge of honor. I can see how a Schwarzenegger signature diploma could be ironically cool, but if I do it now I get Jerry Brown, who I support.
hueyplong
This Burina indictment is the next business day after the other 12 got indicted.
Might events start to occur on an accelerated pace?
The Midnight Lurker
@Adam L Silverman: Not going anywhere, sir. Right here when you need me. It’s in the name. Besides, your intel is too good.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Arnold was one of the best strategists the US had, he single handedly saved the US’s forces during both attempted Invasions of Canada, and defeated the British attempts to control the Great Lakes. For this, he was constantly placed under the command of useless morons, and because of the State of US finances, corruption and undergunding, he put his own fortune in service, even took on personal debts to fund campaigns. The Continental Congress “rewarded him” by continually passing him over for promotion and paying him in worthless script. The Revolition he had leapt into service for had become corrupt, petty and venal.
Ksmiami
@Hungry Joe: look as someone with a lot of finance friends there’s no complexity- The Russians laundered a hell a lot of money and financed Trump when no one else would. Putin literally owns his ass. trump’s a chump he’s not even smart enough to be a witting traitor. He’s just a patsy
Chris Johnson
@The Midnight Lurker: I’m still thinking Trump got in trouble with the Russian mob over being, well, Trump to them.
As such, all this is completely predictable and to be expected.
a) Trump got beaten to crap at some point and that, not ‘pee pee tape’ is what they’ve got on him. There is no reason he would be ashamed of any sexual perversity, he’s openly not. What he would be ashamed of, what is never to be revealed, is that he is the puppet he denied he was: and for the crudest possible reasons, that he got physically dominated and permanently damaged by men who were stronger and meaner than him. That’s the threat: revelation as a man who has been reduced to a crawling b**ch of a person, complete with footage and the ability to add, “oh and ever since our gangsters did this, he has been doing everything we say like a good little slave’. That, not sexual perversity, is what Trump cannot tolerate.
b) This would give him persuasiveness when interacting with the Republican leadership that didn’t want him but went along with the treason in order to get the Presidency and the things they wanted. Russia would be telling McConnell, Ryan etc (Ryan who knew full well they couldn’t even talk about how Russia was backing the Trump contingent and some other Congressmen) that they could win everything they wanted and basically pull off a coup on America, something the Republicans openly wanted in the first place. That’s the carrot, the stick might be Trump suggesting to the Republicans how mean the Russians are. Downside: Trump wouldn’t admit that, but it might be perceptible anyway.
c) The reason the Republicans are behaving the way they are, is that there’s no reason Russia would actually want them to be strong. Russia doesn’t have the same kind of hold on them that they’ve got on Trump, because the hold on Trump is creepy and plays on his narcissism: do what we want and always side with us or be exposed as our toy and a weak, broken man. What they have on the Republicans (and most likely many wealthy people all over the political spectrum) is collaboration so long as those people are useful. Trump has personal reasons, the Republicans are more about the political reasons and will do everything they can to weasel out of what they’ve done.
d) Trump is an opportunity and an accident. Nobody expected all this to be possible, not even the Russians. They had a New York socialite and fake billionaire totally submissive to them, knowing he was a weak bozo who could be pressured but couldn’t work coherently. I think Adam’s of the opinion that Trump can’t be Russia’s agent for this reason, but he’s not thinking of some of Putin’s known tactics (see Adam Curtis ‘Hypernormalization’ on Putin chaos) where Putin’s happy to put energy into contradictory agendas simply to cause confusion and demoralization. Trump has been a spectacularly successful gamble all along, with little downside risk: at ANY POINT if Trump screwed up and revealed himself as a willing agent of Russia, it would simply cause chaos in America… and Putin is working hard and effectively at managing the OTHER actors in the situation. He’s got media covering for Trump, he’s got some of the Republican leadership collaborating because their ends ARE coherent and they ARE intelligent predictable actors, just traitors to the US, and he’s got a lot of stuff still going on in social media always to undermine anything that’s congealing into a coherent and effective power bloc. That’s what he does. I’m seeing it on the hard left as well: always the supposed hero gets excoriated for unforgivable sins. First Clinton, obviously. Then Sanders. Then Ocasio: no exceptions.
e) With this going on, Trump doesn’t need to be an effective spy in any sense. He is the wrecking ball. He’s there to fuck things up and more effective intermediaries, ones that are more controllable, are there to keep his wrecking from being interfered with. Some of ’em go along with it because they think Trump will be wrecking libs and liberal institutions, which he has indeed been spectacularly effective at doing. But they have to feel haunted, because in making this choice, they will only prosper and gain power to the extent Putin wants them to.
f) Trump will inevitably die or fall: he’s not a well man, and we probably don’t know what damage he took getting beat up by the Russian mob, and he probably refuses to have a real doctor unless maybe it’s a Russian doctor (plus, his narcissism will have him avoiding all sorts of doctors as it’s a no-win situation with doctors: either you didn’t need them, or they find a weakness in you and reveal it). At that point, Russia’s hold on the Republicans will be the revelation of how thoroughly they’ve controlled the Republican traitors, who are less insane and unmanageable than Trump. It’s possible all the Republican traitors will get exposed, perhaps shot as traitors.
g) At that point, Russia’s tactics will be to heighten the chaos as much as possible by trying to delegitimize absolutely everyone, just like they delegitimized Clinton and are now delegitimizing leftists like Sanders and Ocasio. Their goal will be to take the intense chaos we’ll be in, and constantly undermine it, supporting whoever they need to support in order to stop any kind of national consensus from arising.
chopper
@Calouste:
nice.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Chris Johnson:
What has Ocasio done or said that was unforgivable?
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: I know who he was and what he did.
James E Powell
@Mnemosyne:
I’d say nearly all Republican voters are motivated by white supremacy. Some have it out front, but a fairly large number have it buried so deeply in their world views that they are not aware that it is there. And you are right, far too many liberals agree in the latter sense. I’ve had quite a few uncomfortable conversations with tote-bagger friends who get super-defensive when certain subjects come up. Like police shooting unarmed black males or where their children go to school. Just keep them talking and you eventually get to “those people.”
Adam L Silverman
@The Midnight Lurker: Let me try again. If you have someone you’ve assessed will do what you want, regardless of whether they are suitable to be a controlled asset, you’ll use them. The President is an agent of influence, that’s different than someone that is formally being run as a controlled asset.
Chris Johnson
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: She got the nomination and then removed some antiwar stuff from her website. I’ve been most interested in watching what Russian ‘internet workers’ try to do to the left FROM an apparent left position. Ocasio isn’t really the hottest target but I figure it’s a matter of time.
The message on Ocasio is that she will turn center-liberal and sell out.
The message on Sanders is that he did not immediately call for the dissolution of ICE (Sanders has never been an open-borders guy, so it was pretty effective in getting a lot of hard-left people excoriating him over ‘supporting’ ICE).
The message on, say, Chapo Trap House is that they collectively make huge impossible sums of money on Patreon and then won’t give it all to leftist causes, and won’t take a leadership position running the Left. Which is absurd on both fronts: they make relatively little compared to the real rich, and they’re totally subject to the whims of Patreon and their own patrons, and they’re simply obnoxious comedians and have no leadership qualities at all and should not in any way be running anything.
And yet, a bunch of people with strange nyms, sometimes ‘Pepe’ user icons, and extremely well organized talking points came and put forth a really impressive effort to make it look as if the forum in general had been struck with a profound collective realization that their support for these comedians was terribly wrong (also, that the place to look for policy on the left was indeed these dirtbag snarky comedians).
Ocasio’s not doing anything wrong. I’m just saying, I personally see the troll brigade working in various places, even now. It’s not that difficult to do. That leftist forum is extremely hot to deny and ‘whatabout’ Russia trolling. It’s particularly easy to get downvote brigades going: you have to be a very good English speaker and politically savvy to make trollish arguments, and you get a few people taking point on that, but the rest of it’s about directing some brigades to downvote/upvote as you wish. So if you call bullshit and say ‘obviously Russia interfered, what are you smoking?’ you get some real people upvoting if you said it in a funny way, but the Russian team splats you into invisibility very quickly.
This is not hard to organize, and doesn’t take lots of centralized direction. It’s just social engineering. It’s definitely happening… both here, and in the super-hard-left forums.
Chris Johnson
@Adam L Silverman: Agreed. I don’t mean to suggest Trump can take specific direction from Russia. He doesn’t need to, but he’s still a kind of asset, and his behavior reveals really strong control of what is a weak and demented individual.
Spikester
@Cheryl Rofer:
Butina was very active in connecting the NRA with Russians.
There’s your goddamned RICO case.
holyroller
@The Dangerman:
Why is it that the various alphabet agencies (FBI/CIA/NSA/DoD/DNI/Etc.) still lean heavily Republican? Is it that they can’t admit to themselves that the Republicans are the first toss everyone else under the bus? Starting with the Constitution? Wasn’t Ike like the last (only?) Republican who actually acted Constitutionally and with respect to the the agencies?
Seriously, why do they side with the less honorable, less ethical, less COMPETENT party nearly every single chance they get?
Zinsky
The press conference Trumpo just held with Pooty-Poot was the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed. A reporter asked the dipshit about the recent Russian indictments and he launches into some ridiculous rant about “DNC servers” and “what they say” (as if they can fu*king talk!) and Hillary Clinton’s “33,000 e-mails” (which would be 8 years old now and are horribly irrelevant). The man is off his flipping rocker and anyone should be able to see that!
The Midnight Lurker
@Chris Johnson: Oh my God, I’m drawing way too attention on BJ today, what with my big mouth and all. Okay, we’ll give this a shot anyway and take the licks from the headmasters. Hell, we might learn something.
a.) Yes, I agree 100%, the Russian mob has Trump by the short and curlies. He burned every lending institution in the Western hemisphere, so he wound up laundering money for them. And I agree with regard to the pee-pee tape. This is a distraction. Muller could produce HD footage of Trump molesting a bus full of children and it wouldn’t matter to his base. Now with regard to shame… I have to disagree. Trump knows no shame. And if the Russians released kompromat on the guy, he’d just wave an airy hand and say ‘fake’ news. Forget our news services (such as they are) even RT hasn’t exactly been flattering, and it doesn’t seem to bother Trump a whittle. And again, Trump’s base won’t care. So even if Putin said ‘fuck it’ and released all they had, I think all it would achieve is to fire up the anti-Trump vote even more. And this doesn’t get Putin what he needs.
b.) Well, this thinking presupposes that the only way to ‘own’ a guy is to break him down. I think the opposite has occurred. I think what they did was build him up, convince him that he could be President, and that once he was, all his problems (and theirs) would go away. Then they surrounded him with people that have Trump’s ear. But that was about herding and not handling.
c.). Yes. The Russians and Trump didn’t pull this off by themselves. It’s pretty clear they had a LOT of help on this side of the pond. I submit the recent 4th of July trip by several leading GOP Senators. Political suicide. They all said they talked tough, but then Ron Johnson (who sponsored the affair) was pushing for the lifting of Russian sanctions within days of returning. This is pretty fucking desperate. I think Putin owns Rojo’s balls in addition to a shitload of others. And I think some of these traitors, Putin has been bringing along for a whole lot longer than Trump. God knows what these people are willing to do to hold onto power, because when they’re gone – they’re dead.
d.) This presupposes some things that I think are wrong. Putin’s immediate goal is to get the sanctions lifted so he can get the Exxon oil flowing. In gangster world, cash is king and Putin’s running out. Yes, chaos and confusion can be great weapons, but they don’t alway achieve their intended goals. And again, Putin needs the sanctions lifted. That’s not likely to happen if he just sows confusion. And I’m guessing he has most of the votes (certainly on the GOP side) or he wouldn’t be this bold. Maybe. There’s always the Putin hubris/frat boy element I keep underestimating. And I think a lot of the destructive things Trump does are less about Putin and more about securing his bonafides with his base.
e.) Let me throw this out. Putin gets Trump elected. The plan is for Trump to get thrown out of office, in which case, Putin’s real man (Pence/Tillerson/Ryan) gets into the top slot instead. I think was the original plan and somewhere it fell apart, probably because of Trump, because he’s an atomic-powered fuck-up.
f.) I think that in the aggregate, you and I are headed the same way. Trump is the centerpiece to a much larger, deeper plan. It’s gone south, so they’re trying to salvage what they can. It’s perfectly clear that the midterms are key. They have to turn it around before the midterms or… blow them up.
g.) I agree with your assessment of the “delegitimizing” effort with regard to Clinton and Ocasio. Uhhh… Bernie…. uhhh… I think Bernie has things to answer for.
(Quickly drops liner into helmet, shoves it on head, and dives back into hidey hole.)
Brachiator
A little tidbit from The Hill
This will be an attempt to clean up Trump’s performance and make him all shiny for the dopes who support him.
ChowderHead
@Chris Johnson:
Wonder if Franken should be on that list…and how infiltrated #metoo is now that it’s gotten a few heads cut off.
The Midnight Lurker
@Adam L Silverman: Yes, sir. Herded not handled. I agree.
RedDirtDirl
@Calouste: Is that an Elmore Leonard quote?
Calouste
@RedDirtDirl: The quote is from the Tarantino movie “Jackie Brown”.
J R in WV
@Mnemosyne:
You know that if the squirrel in your computer gets a virus, you are in extreme danger of dying of rabies, unless you get treatment immediately!!