According to Vanity Fair, working at the White House is increasingly like serving on a certain destroyer-minesweeper careening through increasingly violent storms while its captain chases wisps round the wardroom.
Exhibit A:
“The Manafort trial is spinning him into a frenzy,” one Republican in frequent contact with the president told me. Another Republican told me Trump thinks “the only thing the trial shows is that Manafort is a sleaze.”
That’s one way of looking at it. Paranoid narcissism has a way of producing erratic (he said politely) behavior under stress:
Sources say Trump is increasingly taking his legal defense into his own hands—very much at his own peril. The Sessions tweet crossed a line into what many interpreted to be outright obstruction of justice. Trump also is arguing that he wants to sit for an interview with Mueller, against his lawyers’ advice, The New York Times reported. [links in the original]
It doesn’t help that Only The Best People ™ enable such well crafted plans:
Trump’s latest attacks on Mueller are partly being enabled by conversations with his attorney Emmet Flood, one source told me. “Emmet feels there’s nothing there with collusion, so it’s fine for Trump to comment and tweet…”
Steam, increasingly pressurized, seeks escape. Absent a valve, get ready for shrapnel:
Trump appears to be in earnest about his desire for Sessions to end the Mueller probe, and spoke of a timeline of a couple of weeks. Otherwise, Trump has threatened to fire Rosenstein himself.
Enjoy the ride. (I’m not…)
Open thread.
Image: J. W. M. Turner, Shipwreck of the Minotaur, c. 1810…and yes, this, like many of my posts, was prompted by a desire to showcase this painting.
raven
My old man was on a tin can in the “Caine” typhoon.
dmsilev
Objection! Trump would never think to prove something using “geometric logic”. Also, we all know full well that he ate all of the ice cream and the strawberries.
The Dangerman
If he had the nads, this would have happened already; no way this happens unless the jig is way up (and I suspect that’s already the case).
Mike in NC
Just got in from another day of torrential rain. Seems like 18 of the past 20 have been like this. Local roads are flooding.
Headline that popped up on my computer says that Trump denies being late to meet QE2 in the UK. It was that shiftless 92 year old woman that kept HIM waiting, so there. Maybe he’ll open a brilliant new front on the trade wars to punish them.
No doubt there will be the usual Friday afternoon data dump, too.
raven
December 18, 1944 Typhoon Cobra
Hulls would creak and groan with the pounding and rivets popped. Captains in wheelhouses would order course headings, but helmsmen could do no better than 50° to either side of the intended course. Some ships rolled more than 70°. The 888-ft carrier USS Hancock, scooped tons of water onto its flight decks, 57′ up.
Tom Levenson
@raven: My FiL was skipper (at 24) of an LST; he conned that flat bottomed, 300 foot long tub through that same typhoon. It was a matter of rueful pride that his post-VJ day successor lost her on the rocks in a less severe storm a depressingly short period after the change in command.
ETA: My dad was almost certainly in or around that storm too — but my last sure knowledge of his wartime service puts him on Kincaid’s flagship at Leyte Gulf.
dmsilev
@Mike in NC: On the spectrum of “bad things Trump has done”, being late to meet with QEII and even lying about being late to meet with QEII don’t even move the needle off zero.
Frankensteinbeck
@The Dangerman:
Yep. Trump has been as motivated to fire Rosenstein as he ever will be from almost day one. Hell, he started this by firing Comey. Something is stopping him. Personally, I think Sessions made a deal with Mueller to save himself by protecting the investigation, and Sessions has some power over Trump. Trump’s such a god damn coward that could be anything, even just ‘Sessions can look at him in a scary way.’
Major Major Major Major
To mix stories a bit, it’s definitely starting to feel like We Are All Ishmael Now: unable or unwilling to extract ourselves from this obvious suicide mission, observing as things happen around us.
raven
@Tom Levenson: Nuts that they were stretched to the point that someone that young would have been the Captain of a ship.The other day I was talking to a friend whose pop was an LST sailor and what it must have been like on the high seas in “normal” conditions. Her dad got sick at one point and could go on a cruise and a torpedo hit right where his berth was.
dmsilev
@Frankensteinbeck: Replacing Sessions would be problematic. That’s a Senate-confirmed position, and the margin of error that Trump would have is pretty small for any nominee let alone a replacement AG under the …peculiar circumstances.
JPL
@Major Major Major Major: Only the best stories.
Mandalay
@Tom Levenson Long may you continue to post, but you will never top choosing that specific painting for that specific commentary.
It’s all downhill for you from now on.
JPL
@dmsilev: Trump could move someone who is already confirmed. Zinke might volunteer.
As for those in the WH, you sleep with a dog with fleas, well guess what..
raven
@Tom Levenson: I’m flying into Logan next Friday afternoon to go down to Providence for the 50th Anniversary reunion of my Vietnam Unit. I have a fishing trip scheduled Saturday morning and there is a dinner Saturday night so I’ll wave!
Anonymous At Work
@dmsilev: Probably more the issue of “Back a beast into a corner, you better be prepared to kill it.” Back the FBI into a political corner, they’ll start leaking like a sieve with all the evidence (true or not) that Trump dreads getting out, including his tax returns and to whom he owes how much.
Remember that fear of the NYC FBI field office falsely leaking was what drove Comey to act like a moron.
celticdragonchick
Trump is gonna find out who stole the strawberries….
celticdragonchick
BTW…if any of you have never read The Caine Mutiny…it’s a fantastic book and a great summer read.
celticdragonchick
@dmsilev:
He will not get a replacement. Period. The Senate isn’t gonna entertain that notion and Grassley made that clear.
Teddys Person
never mind
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Going out of Point Judith?
WereBear
I can always handle Turner!
Seconded. Herman Wouk doesn’t know a blessed thing about women, but this all-male ensemble was fascinating. The movie, with Humphrey Bogart giving a last, and quite intense, performance, is worth hunting down, also.
Elizabelle
With this ship o’ fools (and criminals), the sharks are the good guys.
Step it up, sharks!
? Martin
@raven: My dad always said that one of the best things about serving on a sub is they’d just fly under all that shit.
chopper
@Mike in NC:
the funny thing is, there’s fucking video of the queen standing there waiting.
scott (the other one)
@dmsilev: That’s true, but also seems to require thinking an extra step too far ahead for Trump. I think it’s as simple as Sessions knows a shitload of bad stuff Trump has done and if he’s fired, he’ll spill.
JPL
The Mueller office interviewed the Manhattan Madam, and with the pending interview of Stone’s aide, I assume Roger Stone is the next to be indicted. Trump knows that Stone will not go down with the ship, so we haven’t seen anything yet. The repubs will shrug their shoulders.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
That’s why Trump keeps telling his followers to not believe their lying eyes.
JPL
@celticdragonchick: It’s my understanding that if he moves Zinke to that position, he wouldn’t have to be confirmed. He already went through the confirmation process.
Geeno
@WereBear: I love the whole cast of that, Fred Mac Murray as the weasel lieutenant, Jose Ferer as the JAG officer, and Bogart, of course, was brilliant. Great movie.
WereBear
Attention Alain the site fixer: The pages listing in the footer has something mysterious as the first entry. I clicked on it, and visited an alternate dimension. Just FYI…
zhena gogolia
@celticdragonchick:
THE MESS BOYS ATE THE STRAWBERRIES
father pusbucket
“I know more about the law than anybody, believe me.”
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Frances Fleet, Narragansett.
raven
@? Martin: And my old man said gthe tin-can sailors should have gotten sub pay and flight pay!
Ceci n est pas mon nym
As part of my Navy contractor work years ago, I rode a brand new Aegis cruiser out of the Gulf of Mexico just ahead of a hurricane. Not a full fledged typhoon, I think we were in 50-60 knot winds most of the way.
The crew was green, literally. This was the first deployment for many of them.
One night on the bridge, watching the waves crash over the bow and splash against the bridge windows, I turned to the lieutenant next to me and asked how high the waves were. At the time I was doing a lot of wave modeling for the job. He shrugged, “maybe 20 feet.”
I thought about that and the fact that on my job I’d been reading stats showing months where they averaged 40 feet in the Notth Atlantic. I thought about little ships in big storms and how tiny my little hurricane was compared to REAL rough seas. Decades later, I still think about those things.
I’ve never watched “A Perfect Storm.” I never will.
EZSmirkzz
Oh oh! Looks like blood in the water!
via https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/nra-financial-jeopardy
WereBear
The site troubles have kept me away since I’ve been mostly using my tablet, so: SHARE MY JOY.
My book has ten 5 star reviews!
That’s fifty stars, people! I am thrilled a major accomplishment of my entire life has happened. Of course, it wasn’t in the way or form I thought it would be… but that’s the capsule story of my life, so it’s not like I’m surprised or anything. :)
MisterForkbeard
Hat tip to Crooks And Liars, but it looks like Fox News is trying to push the idea that Putin was trying to make it LOOK like Trump was conspiring… but that it was secretly Putin and Hillary conspiring to make Trump look bad. So why is everyone all focused on Trump when they should be investigating Hillary some more?
Sometimes people think I’m joking when I saw Republicans blame Hillary or Obama for literally everything. Nope.
Tom Levenson
@raven: It’s actually a hell of a story. He enlisted early (before 12/7/41) because in his view, somebody had to kill Germans. He was one of three college boys in his intake, and he was a very experienced and already expert sailor, so they sent him off to OCS. He started out in inshore patrol boats, then got to a destroyer on the Atlantic convoy run. He rose to XO (and went through at least one Murmansk experience), and then slugged his captain after the latter called him a dirty Jew or something similar. That incident came right around the time a wire had gone round asking captains to recommend qualified execs to become LST skippers, and rather than deal w. the court martial, my FiL’s skipper got rid of him that way. At 23 or 24, he was younger than most of his officers and some of his men, but he was, it turned out, really good at his job, both the seamanship side and the leader/manager of men side.
The family still has his certificate from Neptune, signed by Davy Jones, acknowledging his crossing of the line in the Pacific in 1944.
MattF
I’m not surprised that the Manafort trial has spooked Trump. Repeated demands that Trump release his tax returns haven’t moved Trump a millimeter, but Mueller is releasing all the details on Manafort’s finances. Trump sees his future there, and it doesn’t work.
Tom Levenson
@raven: I’ll wave back from a distance, alas…we’re off helping a nephew get married.
raven
You also should read The Arnheiter affair
Major Major Major Major
@WereBear: congrats!
WereBear
Since Trump is on the verge of spontaneously combusting, what has Mueller got on Pence?
I haven’t heard much, but what I have heard is not good.
WereBear
@Geeno: Yes, that’s a nice twist, because most people think of Fred MacMurray as the kindly dad in the sitcom in his later years, but his best movie work was as sniveling villain types, like Double Indemnity.
Tom Levenson
@WereBear: Awesome! Congrats. May you have 10 times 10 more!
trollhattan
@Geeno:
I only knew Fred MacMurray from comedies like “My Three Sons” and his various Disney flicks, so “Caine Mutiny” and “Double Indemnity” were real eye-openers when I caught up with them. His filmography is long and impressive and I’d be remiss to not note his very first title: “Girls Gone Wild.” Was he a boob among boobies?
Major Major Major Major
@WereBear: I have unpublished it.
trollhattan
@raven: @Tom Levenson:
Have linked to it previously, here’s my dad’s flattop after that typhoon. “It’s just a flesh wound.”
Pretty sure everybody in that storm wished he served on a battlewagon.
raven
@Tom Levenson: Hell yes! I was lawys focused on the Pacific because that’s where my old man was. After he died I found a shipmate of his and interviewed him. Somewhere in the conversation he said “thank god we weren’t in the Atlantic. That set me off to read a number of books about it including “The Battle of the Atlantic: How the Allies Won the War by Jonathan Dimbleby”. Eye opening to say the least.
Have you seen Five Came Back about Hollywood filmakers in WW2?
WereBear
@Major Major Major Major: Thanks!
raven
@trollhattan: In the interview on the link I posted above the guy talks about how bad it was for the carriers. They lost a number of destroyers and 800 men so it was pretty rough all around.
randy khan
Trump’s been told 1,000 times that he can’t fire Sessions, Rosenstein, or Mueller, and that he can’t make Sessions fire either one of the other two, and it’s driving him crazy.* He would have solved this problem already in the Trump Organization with a combination of some kind of severance deal and an NDA (or, rather, Michael Cohen would have solved it for him), and he can’t believe he can’t make it go away. Of course he’s ranting.
*In this case, “can’t” means that he would be digging himself such a deep hole that he’d never get out, so he really better not.
raven
@Tom Levenson: I suspect it will be more fun than my gig. (except the fishing)!
Chip Daniels
Semi-OT.
If anyone gets a chance, find “Mr. Turner” with Timothy Spall as the artist J.M.W. Turner.
He gives a great performance, and the entire movie looks like a Turner painting.
Its spectacular to watch.
A Ghost To Most
Here’s a painting for your collection, TL:
Alternate title: Night meeting in Helsinki.
rikyrah
@WereBear:
1. He was over the transition
2. He was Manafort’s choice for VP
3. Up to his eyeballs in the Flynn mess.
zhena gogolia
@trollhattan:
He was a terrific actor. Add The Apartment to your list.
rikyrah
@WereBear:
Loved Double Indemnity :)
JWL
Worse, the captain is eating strawberries and counting all the crew’s keys as he wisps. Even the portraits lining the White House walls are laughing now. They never did that with Nixon, having felt far more sorry for both him and the country back in those days.
Aleta
With a headline like this today, I can imagine faux news trying to go all War of the Worlds as its election strategy.
“Air Force remains silent after huge meteor hits near US military base”
efgoldman
@raven: When you’e going South on I-295, wave as you pass exit 20. We live, literally, yards off the ramp.
Tom Levenson
@trollhattan: Dayum!
Re battleships. Yeah, maybe. But having just made two trips to the USS Massachusetts, I can say that not all BBs were exactly comfortable in a blow. She was one of the last class of US battleships to be built with a nodding gesture towards meeting the inter-war treaty limitations. In her class (the South Dakota class, four ships), that manifested itself as a tradeoff of more armor for less length. At sea, this meant both a relatively low top speed for a “fast” battleship, and truly wretched storm behavior. She and her sister ships were so wet, so prone to water coming over the bow, that they ultimately got rid of the original forward AA emplacement; it was just too damn water-logged. Big Mamie did go through the typhoon of Dec. 17, 1944. She’s also notable as the US battleship to fire the first and last 16″ shells during the war: the first at the French warship Jean Bart in the battle of Casablanca, and the last at shore targets at Kamaishi, Japan on August 9, the same day the second atom bomb dropped on Nagasaki.
joel hanes
@A Ghost To Most:
Alternate title
Ship Of Fools
Tom Levenson
@raven: Have not seen this; will check it out.
Aleta
@trollhattan: Him in “Double Indemnity” was a revelation
Tom Levenson
@A Ghost To Most: Saw that. Can’t even.
Schlemazel
@raven:
I had a prof that was a radioman on the Eisenhower (early 1960s) he has photos of waves breaking over the flightdeck (100′ above the waterline). He was getting heavy spray in the radio room 65′ above the deck. I am not sure I could survive a ride like that!
Major Major Major Major
@A Ghost To Most: I perused that painter’s Twitter feed and comments the other day. I remember seeing him pop up from time to time but it was my first deep dive.
And… wow.
trollhattan
@zhena gogolia:
Ooh, how could I forget. He was quite the memorable…boss.
WereBear
@A Ghost To Most: I saw that and… well, there are no words. And there shouldn’t be any art, either!
Tom Levenson
@Schlemazel: USS Kitty Hawk in what appears to be a pretty garden variety open ocean storm.
More ship/storm porn. Protip: turn off the grotesque sound track.
Schlemazel
@celticdragonchick:
I should get the book, I fell in love with the movie. As a kid I had seen the clips of Bogart unraveling on the stand & thought I knew the story. I did . . .up until the last scene, the ‘victory’ party. So much great acting and then José Ferrer walks in and not only blows the whole story to a higher plain but outperforms the casts stellar work with acting worthy of an Oscar.
WereBear
@rikyrah: Yeah. You keep on cheering me up and I appreciate it :)
Double Indemnity is darn near perfect in the way the pace never slackens, and the slightest little things turn into big scenes. It helps that I adore Barbara Stanwyck in almost anything.
zhena gogolia
@trollhattan:
I too thought of him as “My Three Sons” until my movie education continued. William Demarest and William Frawley also had distinguished film careers before they started being sitcom regulars. Early in our relationship, my husband said, “I think Barbara Stanwyck made some movies before she was in The Big Valley.” It took me about 15 minutes to stop laughing.
Schlemazel
@Tom Levenson:
Yeah, that! That right there would make me join the Air Force
zhena gogolia
@Schlemazel:
The book is almost too intense to read.
Uncle Cosmo
@WereBear: I haven’t heard much either, but I strongly suspect Vlad the Paler intends to enter a winning ending by sacrificing the Chief Grifter & promoting his actual asset, one Mikey Dense, who comes with an in-house controller (“Mother”).
I so fucking hope Bobby 3Styx has got the KKKamchatkan KKKandidate & former SMOTHOR (Stupidest Member Of The House Of Representatives) dead to rights – we desperately need to Agnewize the bastard before moving on Agolf Twitler.
JMO of course ::slips back into the background::
zhena gogolia
@WereBear:
Me too! Congratulations on the book reviews! Is a hard copy coming out soon?
trollhattan
@Tom Levenson:
Have never walked the deck of a BB but have seen a couple from a distance and those 16-inchers are just impossible to fathom. Guess the last ones in use were during the Gulf War. Over-the-horizon gunnery at its finest.
Can only imagine what the Yamato-class 18-inchers were capable of. Coincidentally, planes from CV20, the Bennington participated in sinking her just four months after that typhoon.
Tom Levenson
@Mandalay: ;-)
A Ghost To Most
My hat is off to those who choose to serve on ships. I took the easy way out.
Schlemazel
@? Martin:
I made weapons to kill submarines & know too much about them. If those were my only two choices I would take my chances on the surface, thank you very much.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@zhena gogolia: Big Valley was my first introduction to Stanwyck also. I loved Double Indemnity not only for Stanwyck’s and Macmurray’s roles, but for Edward G. Robinson as the good guy.
hueyplong
@raven: I read Five Came Back last year. Really interesting.
Shana
@zhena gogolia: And you married him anyway!
Schlemazel
@WereBear:
Many congrats on the stars!!
Leto
@celticdragonchick: Is it the same person who stole his cheese?
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: One of the events that was happening during The Perfect Storm was a rescue attempt made by the New York Air National Guard 106th Rescue Wing. I first read about this right before the film came out in Airman magazine (USAF publication). They thought they’d be out and back, but didn’t realize what this would develop into. I can’t find the exact article, but the one linked gives the over jist. I’ll keep searching though.
Tom Levenson
@trollhattan: Can’t even imagine an 18″ shell.
WereBear
Hopefully, I finish that task this weekend. I have a lot of preliminary work done, but I haven’t formatted a book for printing in a couple of decades. It seems so clunky compared to eBooks, which are Export and DONE!
Schlemazel
@Tom Levenson:
I made the mistake of reading Dick Winters biography as a follow up to Band of Brothers. His major complaint about Sobel was that he was a Jew. He never comes flat out and says that but he makes it very clear that the moment he realized Sobel was Jewish he knew he could not serve under him. The story went downhill from there, he was an ugly little bigot who believed he was a superior human being.
Nicole
Have an excellent reunion, Raven!
I have freelanced in my day, recording textbooks (I have a reasonably nice speaking voice and good diction) and I did one that was for EMTs (very informative, but horrifically graphic; if I never again have to say, “extruded eyeball” again it’ll be too soon). There was a chapter on EMT care for combat vets, and one of the tidbits that they can’t explain is that combat veterans (as opposed to veterans in general) are much more likely to develop Type 2 diabetes than the general population. I thought about my grandfather the whole time I was recording. He earned 2 Bronze stars in WW2, so it’s quite likely he saw combat somewhere (he never talked about the war), and reading the chapter was like a secret window into my memories of him (he died when I was 11). He was over 6 feet tall, and beanpole thin, but yep, Type 2 diabetes. Also a drunk, which is not unrelated, either.
Also made me think about why I never liked George Carlin’s routine about “shell shock” turning into “PTSD.” Things get renamed as we learn more about them. That’s not a bad thing.
FYI: Do not attempt to put the eyeball back in its socket. Cover it with a cup (though not a styrofoam one) and get medical attention ASAP.
Mary G
@WereBear: I left you one too!
Also, it looks like OO and SD have gone off to do IRL birthday activities, but I will wish them happy trip around the sun just in case.
feebog
WTF? I thought Flood was supposed to be a competent attorney. If Trump knew about the June 9, 2016 meeting, and if there was any follow up whatsoever, that’s collusion right there. And the fact Trumpov dictated the phony adoption cover story sure indicates there was followup.
Tom Levenson
@Nicole:
This truly is a full service blog.
Schlemazel
@WereBear:
Grew up with “My Three Sons” & it was hard to see McMurry as the crumb in “Caine” Then I saw “Double Indemnity” and it made me appreciate him as an actor & not as the goof in “Flubber”
Steve in the ATL
@Major Major Major Major: wow—another Faulkner reference?
zhena gogolia
@Shana:
Yes, thankfully! He’s a great expert on Stanwyck now.
germy
zhena gogolia
@Schlemazel:
If TCM potted biographies are to be trusted, that was a conscious career choice on his part. He didn’t want to be the bad guy any more.
CaseyL
@WereBear: That is a BFD, and you jolly well should bask in it. Congrats!!
Re: ships in storms. I’ve prided myself on never getting seasick, but doubt even my iron gut would be up to those ups-and-downs. Also – these are massive modern ships. Imagine what it was like to take to the deep seas back in the sailing galleon days. No wonder so many sank!
ETA: Also makes me think of Mahan’s seminal work on sea power as an instrument of war. Before you could “command the seas,” you had to have the ability to build boats that could survive ’em.
Major Major Major Major
@Steve in the ATL: sure.
JPL
@WereBear: Congrats!
TomV
@Mandalay: “Raft of the frigate Medusa” comes next.
WereBear
@Mary G: Squee! Thank you so much.
FIFTY FIVE STARS.
I’m going to be all pouty if I get a review with less, now, but Mr WereBear will cheer me up, he’s good at that :)
trollhattan
@Tom Levenson:
The only missing element was, “And refrain from making ‘boiiiiinnng’ sound effects.”
Schlemazel
@zhena gogolia:
It is a shame because he was very good at it. He had that calm, controlled, evil that is so much more threatening than the tough guy.
Mary G
This thread is fascinating and it’s not about politics:
afanasia
@zhena gogolia:Ok, that’s what I’m watching tonight… Jack Lemmon, Shirley Mclaine, directed by Billy Wilder….
WereBear
@Schlemazel: And he started as a jazz musician. Trombone, no less.
jl
@dmsilev: I was going to comment on the very strict geometric logic of this post. So, we have all the bases covered now.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Not to change the subject, but I had a heart attack this morning and would up in the hospital getting a stent put in. I feel pretty terrific now. I’m supposed to go home tomorrow if all goes as planned.
I still can’t believe that happened.
frosty
@Tom Levenson: We’ve got my FIL’s Neptune certificate. He was on a PT tender, and the boats that found the Japanese fleet at Leyte Gulf were theirs.
Funny story: when they were issued life jackets the crew thought they should have parachutes instead, since they were stuffed full of supplies for the PTs: av gas, depth charges, torpedoes, ammo.
zhena gogolia
@afanasia:
It’s brilliant.
Miss Bianca
@celticdragonchick: Have to admit, it would never occur to me to refer to “The Caine Mutiny” as a summer read! But that’s probably just because I haven’t read it yet!//
Teddys Person
I’ll take People Who Should Sit Down and Shut Up for $1000 please Alex
Another lurker
@raven: What are you fishing for? Where are you sailing out of? Full day or 1/2?
Schlemazel
@WereBear:
I thought it was saxophone. I know he sang for a couple of groups and had a hit record before he got to Hollywood. He also was the nice guy in a series of rom-coms before he took the dark turn.
“The Apartment” is also a great film with wonderful writing and great acting.
joel hanes
@TomV:
Raft of the frigate Medusa
You might enjoy Julian Barnes’s book from the ’80s,
_A_History_Of_The_World_In_10_1/2_Chapters_
which is loosely centered around a contemplation of the Medusa, the raft, and the painting.
Miss Bianca
@EZSmirkzz: Well, well, well…wouldn’t *that* be fucking amazing.
Insurance, man…that’s the way to get these gun-humpers.
? Martin
@Schlemazel: Yeah. Survivability on surface ships is something of a smooth linear function, in submarines it’s a straight up step function. You get a torpedo pointed at you, and there’s pretty much only one outcome.
His boat was out when the USS Scorpion disappeared. This was about 6 months before I was born. They were one of the closer ships (some hundreds of miles) and were sent to S&R. My dad was talking to one of the lifers about what they should expect when they get there. He said something along the lines of ‘they always refer to it as rescue to give the guys some hope, but really, nobody is fooled’. They were looking for an explanation, not survivors.
rikyrah
@zhena gogolia:
LOL
I think of Barbara Stanwyck and Bette Davis in the same vein- they were never ‘ conventional’ beauties, but they could act. And, act, they did.
Leto
@Teddys Person:
Sorry, had to add that. After his wife and daughter both said, “You fucked up”, he’s still mindless beating the civility drum. Motherf’er… your party is full of poop flinging monkeys who have no interest in being respectful. GO AWAY!
? Martin
@Miss Bianca: I think people are taking that assertion by the NRA a bit too seriously. The NRA is far from broke. I think this is mostly a deregulation argument from them, that poor old NRA can’t get insurance from this state and that will put them out of business. Then they make these threats about how bad things are with the expectation that their followers will run to their defense and demand that the NRA get free insurance or some shit.
The only way that the NRA is running out of money is if they paid out to politicians on the promise the russians would pay them and they got stiffed.
WereBear
@Schlemazel: You are right! Violin, baritone horn, and saxophone, and sang.
Must have seen him posing with one in a publicity photo or something, and it stuck in my head.
Schlemazel
@? Martin:
The stuff we made could easily cause a sub to sink without killing the crew. If the bottom was not low enough they could live down there until the air ran out. On a nuke I have no idea how long that might be.
Tom Levenson
@TomV: The Slave Ship
Schlemazel
@WereBear:
Me? Right? Accidents happen I guess. A very talented guy though.
Schlemazel
Went and looked. “The Caine Mutiny” Is available as an ebook so I picked it out & am looking forward to reading it/
Dorothy A. Winsor
Let’s try that again. I have a comment in moderation around 112. I am in the hospital and couldn’t remember what nym and password I was using. I had a heart attack. Now I have a stent and am feeling better than i have at any time in the last 24 hours.
CaseyL
@Schlemazel:
Unless the idea was that there was time to mount a rescue, I’m not sure sitting around waiting to suffocate is any better.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh no. Glad you are doing ok. I have had heart surgery but thankfully no heart attack associated with it. That’s scary.
WereBear
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh dear! So glad you seem to have made it through the crisis and are feeling better. Virtual hug.
Tom Levenson
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Yikes! All good wishes.
I’ll check for your comment.
SiubhanDuinne
@chopper:
And checking her watch a couple of times.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Baud: @WereBear: The doc doesn’t want me to drive 2 hours by myself to a friend’s place on Monday, but he says Wednesday would be ok if I’m doing well.
Leto
@Dorothy A. Winsor: OMG! Glad you’re doing better. Posi thoughts headed your way!
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
G was never a big fan of Stanwyck — he found her to be cold and remote — until he saw a few of her Pre-Code movies, especially Night Nurse. She really had to dial herself back to make it through censorship, which actresses like Miriam Hopkins were unable to do.
WereBear
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Reassuring. And a fine reason to take it easy if you can, and avoid stress.
Mnemosyne
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Yikes! I’m glad you’re now close to a major metropolitan area that has world-class heart centers nearby.
Feel better!
Schlemazel
@CaseyL:
If the stuff I built was used the shit would have come down hard & there would be very little chance for rescue. It is surprisingly easy to disable a sub even with their modern, very thick, skirting. Once there is a hole in that you can’t displace the water & you will sink
Jay
@CaseyL:
There’s a funny difference. Large Powerboats tend run through storm waves and take a pounding,
Sailboats tend to take a position in the wave train and keep pace, or slowly work there way forward in the wave train, and don’t take a pounding.
Large powerboats tend to lose steering and handling finesse at the slower speeds in storms.
Rode out a Cat.4 in a 27 foot sailboat, didn’t even spill my coffee.
The problem with running, is you need the sea room. A lot of ships sink by running out of water. The Bay of Biscay is particularly bad for that.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah:
Oh, yes. They could both look beautiful when they wanted to, or really unattractive when that was required.
SiubhanDuinne
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Oh no! So glad you’re feeling better but I know first-hand how scary even a mild heart attack can be. Do recover fully, quickly, and comfortably, and let us know what’s happening.
Groucho48
The Apartment is a great movie, but, it’s kind of a downer. So, be ready for that…
I think it’s MacMurray who is playing the theme music to My Three Sons.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Tom Levenson: Thanks, Tom
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Are you getting tested for other blockages or did they already do that when the did the stent?
Yarrow
@Frankensteinbeck:
Yes. This is what happened. It’s been obvious for ages because anyone who hadn’t made a deal would have resigned after the way Trump attacks him. With a deal it means that Sessions can’t resign. That also works for Sessions because he gets to implement his racist policies.
zhena gogolia
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Oh, I hope your recovery goes speedily!
JPL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I’m so glad that you are still among us, and please keep us updated.
? Martin
@Schlemazel: Quite a while if the reactors were still running. I think they might run out of food before anything else (months). But how often do you want your boat in water shallower than crush depth? I think that was his point. The whole point of the nuke boats wasn’t the kind of cat and mouse you see in WWII movies, but going deep and appearing to vanish from the planet until you decide to be seen again.
But yeah, being first strike weapons, they knew they were big fucking targets. For my dad, he figured his odds were better down there than in Vietnam which was his other ‘option’.
Schlemazel
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Hope it was a little one. I had mine 10 months ago. It was the sort of funny story I have a history of. The paramedics cam & sent an EKG to the hospital, the cardiologist “knew exactly what it was”. They took me straight to the cath lab and I watched as he ran the cath all over my heart & could not find a blockage. They did an MRI & found an insignificant blockage in a tiny vessel (D1 for you med students). It didn’t seem to be worth the trouble of fixing. 6 weeks later another event so they put a stint in. I wish you as much luck with yours!
Mnemosyne
@Groucho48:
The Apartment has some sad moments and themes, but I find the ending to be really uplifting as the characters put their past mistakes aside to choose each other.
“Shut up and deal.”
Yarrow
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh, no! I’m so glad you are getting the help and treatment you need. How scary. Please take good care of yourself and keep us posted as you can.
Jay
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Please take care, glad you had a good outcome.
Major Major Major Major
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh no! Glad you’re recovering!
Schlemazel
@? Martin:
Not sure what all I can say. I know there were plans for taking boats down in shallow water (it requires different tactics) and “shallow” is pretty deep with modern boats.
raven
Lil Bit examining the North Carolina
debit
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Yikes!! Glad you’re okay and being taken care of.
Tom Levenson
@raven: “Just let me at ’em. I can take her!”
chopper
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
oh man! that’s pretty shitty. hoping for a quick and easy recovery.
Gelfling 545
@WereBear: Will a print version be coming? There are a couple of people I’d love to give a copy to. Congratulations on the rave reviews. They all seem to feel you really know your felines!
NY Robbin
@zhena gogolia:
“The Lady Eve.” That is all. (Also a cute, bumbling Henry Fonda).
hedgehog the occasional commenter
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh no!!! All good wishes for a quick recovery.
JPL
@raven: NIce!
WereBear
@NY Robbin: Another favorite. Though an old one, Baby Face, is worth seeking out if you like melodrama. Which, in the right hands, I do.
WereBear
@Gelfling 545: Yes, soon. I will announce :)
Quinerly
@Dorothy A. Winsor: late to the thread. Feel better soon. Keep us updated. Virtual hugs. ♥️
Quinerly
@raven: ?
rikyrah
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Well, I’m glad that you are doing better. :)
Rand Careaga
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Vanity Fair rain a riveting piece on the El Faro sinking from three years back (why, here it is). It’s long-form journalism, but well worth the time. Your worst day at work was nothing like as bad as the crew’s was.
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
I believe that Attorney General White Citizens Council has something on Dolt45. But, he’d take ANY humiliation…
He’s getting to live out his White Supremacist fantasies.
Any humiliation is worth that to him.
CaseyL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Yikes! Glad you’re feeling better and should be able to go home today.
Ruckus
@raven:
It’s possible that is true. Been through a nice storm myself. We were aiming at Charleston, ended up almost in Canada and a few days later than normal. Winter storm crossing the Atlantic. Wind never dropped below 90 mph. Seas running such that at the crest of a wave the first third of the ship was out of the water, at the bottom of the trough the next wave was over the bridge. Good times!
Another lurker
@raven: Hi!, I saw you mention that you will be fishing with the Frances Fleet. I know them by reputation, from my time fishing out of Montauk. The Frances Fleet has a good reputation. Are you fishing Fluke, Porgies, Stripers and Blues? Have a ball, what ever the quarry!
MomSense
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Oh no!! So glad you are feeling better and still with us. That’s scary.
Yarrow
@rikyrah: It’s more that Mueller has dirt on Sessions and Sessions has come to an agreement with Mueller that he will stay in place and protect the investigation. Sessions could fire Rosenstein but he hasn’t because he’d break his agreement with Mueller and be in more legal trouble. Of course Sessions is happy to get to stay and be Chief Racist, but if he felt resigning would protect him from Mueller’s investigation he’d resign. It’s the opposite so it’s a win for him to get to stay.
The Moar You Know
Some local news:
“I never thought my face would get eaten!” sobs member of the Leopard’s Eating People’s Faces Party.
The even lamer real quote: “He told the Associated Press that he voted for President Donald Trump, but that he didn’t think his vote would affect his family personally.”
Some fucking people. What did they think was going to happen?
Kristine
@WereBear: Woo-hoo!! ?
Droppy
By the way, Herman Wouk is alive and well – 103 years old. He wrote a brief memoir at 100 (Sailor and Fiddler) – he wrote jokes for Fred Allen in the radio days before he joined the navy. I also like his door-stopper WWII books, Winds of War and War and Remembrance.
Mary G
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh no! Glad it’s getting taken care of. I blame the moving – it’s up there with divorce and losing your job in stress, even when you’re happy to be doing it. I hope you can go home soon.
The Moar You Know
@Teddys Person: I read the tweets you posted and it hit me: this narcissist is going to run for president in 2020. You just watch. He’s going to market his sorry ass as the “reasonable Republican who can heal the nation from Donald Trump”.
Just One More Canuck
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I hope you feel better soon and get sent home
Robert Sneddon
@raven: I recall reading a memoir based on the diary and flight log of someone who celebrated their 21st birthday by captaining a Lancaster bomber over Occupied Europe. He was a good year older than any other member of his crew. He did not survive the war.
A Ghost To Most
@? Martin:
My first post-college job was at Lockheed, creating the recursive parts database used to construct the Trident missiles. That was close enough to a submarine (or ship) for me.
Yutsano
So…are we going for Tom’s first TBogg?
schrodingers_cat
@Dorothy A. Winsor: {{ }} sounds scary. Glad you are on the mend. Get well soon.
Mary G
@The Moar You Know: I’ve been saying Comey’s running for president for months now. He keeps praising Iowa (he’s from there) and the photos on his social media aren’t from his iPhone – he’s got big advertising talent working for him.
It’s idiotic, too, for him to think he has the ghost of a chance. Democrats hate him for Hillary, the Republican base hates him for Twitler, and the never-Trumpers couldn’t fill a McDonalds they’re so rare. His ego is massive, though, so he’s got that going for him.
Omnes Omnibus
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Get well soon.
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
Hadn’t thought of it that way. You might be right.
Elizabelle
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Moving is stressful, but really!
Hope you are well on the mend. Later, you will have to tell us about your experience. I hope you recover speedily and completely.
rikyrah
@The Moar You Know:
Yeah, I don’t get it. How could he listen to Dolt45 during 2016, and NOT KNOW that he was talking about HIS WIFE?
Schlemazel
@The Moar You Know:
They voted for Dump because they wanted him to fuck over some people. It never occurred to them THEY would be the ones getting fucked over! I hope it is painful beyond belief
Miss Bianca
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Good God! Hope you are soon well and out of hospital!
@WereBear: And congrats to you!
Yutsano
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh my goodness my dear lady! Please do rest up and enjoy a night of terrible hospital food. Hopefully they spring you in the morning and all will be well!
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Happy Birthday!जनमदिन मुबारक |
वाढ दिवसाच्या शुभेच्छा
Any special plans for tonight?
Miss Bianca
@? Martin: Yeah, I figured rumors of the NRA’s death might be greatly exaggerated, but I’d love to see a significant number of other states do what NYS is doing.
Schlemazel
@Droppy:
The forward to the latest edition of “Caine” is a wonderful read. I wish I could copy & paste it here for you all. He tossed it off in 2003 and I wish I could write a piece half as good as that
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: May be he wanted to get rid of his without filing for divorce. I remember a similar story last year. It was the husband that got deported, he was a restaurant owner IIRC.
Gravenstone
@Teddys Person: Pompous little fuckwit, ain’t he?
Robert Sneddon
@Schlemazel: There isn’t a lot of current knowledge about actual anti-submarine warfare other than exercises and wargaming. The last real attempt to sink a second-rate sub by a first-rate Navy I can think of was during the Falklands campaign when the Royal Navy’s finest sub-hunters went up against a decrepit Agentinian diesel sub, the San Luis around the waters of the Falklands. The result was a lot of expended anti-sub weaponry and a sub that made it home in one piece.
On the other hand in the case of HMS Conqueror vs. the Argentinian cruiser Belgrano and its supporting ships during the same conflict, the Conqueror reportedly had a shooting solution on the Belgrano for hours before a direct order from the Prime Minister was received to sink it, after which the Conqueror got home safely despite being hunted by modern(ish) frigates and destroyers.
Subs have gotten even better since then — the keelplate A-class British sub HMS Astute went to play with the USN soon after being commissioned, going up against their airborne and surface anti-sub teams plus facing off against Los Angeles-class subs. One American reportedly said that the (ageing) LA-class subs kicked back a sonar signature the size of a dolphin but the newer HMS Astute had the sonar signature of a baby dolphin.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
*grunt*
Seems that you’re not allowed to treat vote-suppressing, white trash, red X twitter with the contempt deserved. Another week, another spell in the penalty box.
The platform is trash.
On another note, year old cat reached his lifelong goal last night of catching and killing a juvenile sparrow on the back porch. He wandered the kitchen and dining area, showing his prize to me, the Countess, the dog, the kitten and my oldest daughter’s cat while growling ferociously to stay away. He then rolled around playing with it until I distracted him with a laser so I could take the thing away.
I’m mean that way.
Squid696
Within 5 minutes of pulling out of Pearl Harbor you are in water deep enough to crush the hull were you to sink to the bottom. Most waters that US subs operate in are like that. We used to joke that the DSRVs were for moms, not sailors, and then I found out the Navy was actually using them to tap Russian subsea communications lines. It all made sense then.
Fair Economist
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Horrible to hear you had a heart attack but happy to hear you are getting top treatment (stents to open the blockage are very good, especially if done quickly).
WaterGirl
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh my gosh, so sorry to hear that. Scary. Glad you are feeling better and that they could do a stent rather than open heart surgery. It probably does seem surreal.
Spanky
@Dorothy A. Winsor: jesus!
Of vourse, im posting from an er bed myself. Chest pains, but apparently gastritis.
Damn you, trump!
schrodingers_cat
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: What does that red X mean anyway. I pretty much avoid reading those tweets. They sound like cray cray propaganda.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Baud: As far as I can tell, they checked when the did the stent. The report talks about other areas too
ETA: Thanks for the multiple good wishes from the nicest bunch of jackals on the intertubes
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I had no idea. Did this happen recently? Are you okay?
WaterGirl
@raven: Looking good!
A Ghost To Most
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
It’s much more entertaining when they release their catch alive in the house.
Raven
@Tom Levenson: I visited there on my last trip for our 45th reunion.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: Crawfish étouffée.
Schlemazel
@Squid696:
My knowledge is 30 years old but 2500 feet is a very long way down.
My assumption would be that in war time nobody is coming after you. Assuming the hull remains intact you have months of air & water so food would be the limiting factor. Could command maintain discipline? I have read stories of sailors in lifeboats I think all the things they did would happen in a container on the seafloor.
Schlemazel
@Spanky:
Here is to gastritis! It beats what you thought brought you there.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Glad to hear that you’re feeling better, yikes!
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Yeah, as if you have a heart….
raven
Here’s me and my old man on the deck of the Alabama in 96. Even though he was a tin can sailor he knew everything about the battlewagons.
Tom Levenson
@Raven: Cool. I’m a sucker for museum ships, and my 18 year old son is more so, which means we get around to a fair number. He was disappointed that the floods in Japan meant that he couldn’t get to the Kure shipyard/museum to see where the Yamato was built — he was over there w. three fellow HS-College bound friends last month.
We’re heading to the UK over winter break — HMS Belfast, HMS Victory and the Bovington Tank Museum. ;-)
Tom Levenson
@raven: @raven: Amazing how much like the Massachusetts she looks (joke, son). Also, amazing to look back at those turrets and imagine them pointing at you.
dww44
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Pulling for you to recover fully. Please do keep us posted.
raven
@Tom Levenson: The four pipers that were turned into APD’s were many of the ships given to the Brits in Lend Lease.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tom Levenson: The National Army Museum in Chelsea is pretty cool.
Gelfling 545
@Dorothy A. Winsor: best wishes for swift recovery.
raven
@Tom Levenson: My buddy actually called in a fire mission from the New Jersey in Vietnam.
StringOnAStick
@Miss Bianca:
The NRA is wailing that they might be forced to end NRA-TV, among other things, so it does look like another way to grift money from their rubes. Call it an advanced ad campaign, but I really like seeing the NRA worried about their funding and I suspect it is at least partly true. Especially now that Maria Butina and her handler Torshin have made it too hot to get their rubles sent to NRA HQ as easily as they used to.
Adam mentioned their likely wildly over-inflated membership numbers, and I do have anecdotal evidence of that being true from an old friend. His granddad bought every kid and grandkid a lifetime membership, most of which wanted nothing to do with the NRA in any way but what can you do when the rich old dude signs you up without your consent I guess. I know no one in that family is a supporter, especially now that it’s way beyond being a hunting safety organization.
Immanentize
@raven: He is my Dad’s POS Destroyer Escort…
Atlantic Duty….
Gelfling 545
@The Moar You Know: Well surprise, surprise.
Gelfling 545
@The Moar You Know: Talking with my neighbor todsy she was wondering what we could possibly end up with next. I’d bet money you’re right and he’ll run. It chills the very blood!
Raven
@Immanentize: That was a thing of beauty compared to the WW1 four pipers that in mothballs from 1919 to 1939!
James E Powell
@The Moar You Know:
The unstated fact is that he was totally okay with the same thing happening to other people.
Original Lee
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Glad you’re OK.
Ruckus
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Wow! Really glad you are feeling better. Those cardio gods are pretty good these days. Rest up and follow instructions!
Ruckus
@Schlemazel:
Docs thought I might have had a TIA, a minor stroke, which usually means a major stroke coming in the near future. When they were doing the angiogram the doc made the comment, “What are we doing here, everything looks fine.” Which was of course reassuring while I was laying there. Can’t imagine what hearing the opposite would be like. And yes I’ve had a minor HA. Fun times!
Ruckus
@Mary G:
His gigantic ego still only gets that one same vote as the rest of him.
debbie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Yikes! Glad you’re feeling better and hope your recovery is a speedy one.
SFBayAreaGal
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Barbara Stanwyck was also a great comedic actress
debbie
@randy khan:
Speaking of, how do we start a petition for a sanity hearing?
debbie
@Tom Levenson:
The artist took at least 100 pounds off Trump.
debbie
@WereBear:
Double Indemnity is a great double bill with John Garfield and Lana Turner’s The Postman Always Rings Twice.
ETA: Congratulations on the stars!
Immanentize
@Raven: That is true. And there were still some WWI vintage DE’s around in 44. Glad my Dad didn’t pull duty on one….
Immanentize
@Ruckus: So sorry — that is hard. The opposite of “What are you doing here,” I now know, is silence.
Chetan Murthy
@Uncle Cosmo:
Consider this sincerely flattered.
Tazj
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I’m glad you’re getting taken care of, and I wish you a speedy recovery.
chopper
well, looks like we’ll at least get a half-bogg out of this one.
Jim Parish
@SFBayAreaGal: Yep. Ball of Fire is one of my favorite movies.
When I was a grad student at Chicago, the Law School showed classic movies once a week. My first year, in three successive weeks, the movies were Gaslight (villain, Charles Boyer), Double Indemnity (villain, MacMurray), and After the Thin Man (villain, Jimmy Stewart). Kind of a system shock, there…
J R in WV
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Glad to hear you are doing better, what a shock to your system!
Wife had a cath to inspect her condition near the end of her hospital stay for septic shock. They saw blood test results that indicated she had some kind of cardiac event, but no sign of permanent damage when they did the cath later on.
Glad you got a close going over to determine where to put your stent. Hope you feel better going forward and get fully recovered asap.
Felony Govt
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Late again but best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery! Stay off Twitter!
SFBayAreaGal
@Rand Careaga: Wow, what a great article
Denali
@Dorothy A Windsor,
So sorry to hear of your heart attack. Best wishes for a quick recovery.
Ruckus
@Immanentize:
Actually I had that HA back sometime before Oct 2012. I had no idea that I’d had one. The cardio guy told me when I was doing my VA intake physical. They did a lot of tests and a piece of advice. If at all possible never, ever do a chemical stress test. They give you a shot which speeds up your heart to see what happens. First they brought in the crash cart with a nurse holding the paddles. Then they gave me the shot. About 5 seconds later I thought my heart was going to explode. I may have screamed FUCK, at least I was in my head. In all my working out, running, including a treadmill stress test I’ve never got my heart rate above 175. I could see the monitor during the chemical test and it got over 200. It was fucking scary. And it did not feel good at all. Not in the least, not in any way shape or form.
Back to the point, the angiogram was 3 days before xmas last year, the thing that started the whole cardio workup was in April of last year and wasn’t a cardio thing at all. My brain is fucked up, but you all probably already knew that.
Ruckus
@A Ghost To Most:
My hat is off to those who served in the mud, guts and blood. The navy was a piece of cake (there’s cake?) compared to being shot at, fumigated with agent orange, being up wind of burning shit in a can, c rations, gun fire at you…. Boot camp was even far easier. About the only navy guys who were in during Vietnam who got a lot of the same crap was the brown water navy, the river rats, the PBR surfers.
Ruckus
@Tom Levenson:
I can’t either. I’ve hand carried a 5 in round, which is about 75 lbs. But I was a whole lot younger then. An 18 in round probably weighed about 2500-3500 lbs as the US battleships with 16 in fired a round between 1900 lb and 2700 lb and would make a pretty good dent in most ships and buildings.
RobNYNY
@WereBear: I’ve seen several shirtless pictures of him (nice dad bod) where his nipples are concealed either with makeup or airbrushing. Hollywood must have thought they were too prominent in some way.
http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2014/12/hollywood-hunk-of-day-fred-macmurray.html
thalarctosMaritimus
@Ruckus: That’s a job for Wojtek