Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

T R E 4 5 O N

American history and black history cannot be separated.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

I would try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Our messy unity will be our strength.

Of course you can have champagne before noon. That’s why orange juice was invented.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Sunday Evening Open Thread: It’s All Fun & Games…

Sunday Evening Open Thread: It’s All Fun & Games…

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552Comments

  2. 2.

    efgoldman

    I wonder where all these guys get money for multiple Harleys.
    They are supposedly lawyers and accountants out for weekend hobbies.

  3. 3.

    Corner Stone

    @JDM: And then, with no acknowledged irony, buy the Honda VTX 1800. Half the price and an infinitely more reliable machine with better performance.

  4. 4.

    John Revolta

    Wait, are these the same guys who are ashamed of their tattoos because H-D is making parts overseas now?
    It’s getting harder and harder to keep the wingnuts straight.

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    I’m not sure I have ever seen anything more butch than Hannity in a leather biker vest.

  6. 6.

    efgoldman

    @John Revolta:

    are these the same guys who are ashamed of their tattoos because H-D is making parts overseas now?

    And buy a shit ton of Harley merch, most of which is imported.
    Logic is not their strong suit.

    Fuckem

  7. 7.

    A Ghost To Most

    I sold my motorcycle a decade ago, when it became obvious that most bikers were xian fascist assholes.

  9. 9.

    jharp

    “And since mid-2015 I’ve expected an Altamont incident at one of Trump’s rallies.”

    I 100% believe it is not if. It’s when.

  10. 10.

    efgoldman

    @Corner Stone:

    then, with no acknowledged irony, buy the Honda VTX 1800

    Hondas aren’t as obnoxiously noisy enough. Harley guys have to announce their presence to the whole neighborhood.

  13. 13.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @efgoldman: Covering up their tats, wimps! They should get them removed if they feel that strongly about it. Sure it’s expensive, painful(more so that getting the ink), and time consuming; but covering them up shows no dedication.

  14. 14.

    JWL

    If memory serves, it was in 1966 that some Hells Angels stomped a group anti-war protestors in Oakland. A year or so later, Hunter Thompson began running with the San Francisco chapter (in order to write his wonderful book), and he thought it a real shame, even a sort of watershed moment, that the Angels had picked the wrong side.

    Appropriately enough, Thompson ended his book with an account of getting stomped himself by some suddenly disgruntled Angels. that turned on him.

  16. 16.

    efgoldman

    @jharp:

    I’ve expected an Altamont incident at one of Trump’s rallies.

    Once again people vote with their feet; the counter-protest dwarfed the RWs.

    ETA: Apparently DC police did a hell of a job.

  17. 17.

    eric

    Two questions for the jackals:

    (1) any thoughts on car under $25k….there are many more options out there than i thought there would be….need four doors (and possible a hatch — 13 year old daughter with friends)

    (2) what is the best slow cooker (preferably under $25k as well)

    thanks

    eric

  18. 18.

    Jay

    @efgoldman:

    Some are. Some are cops and firemen. Some are small businessmen and contractors. Some of the clubs are benign. Some are “ghost” clubs, who start out as getting “cred” by subpatching to less benign clubs, then get radicalized or are used to normalize the less benign criminal and racist clubs.

    Patch and badge reading suggests that many “Bikers for Trump” however are just Nazi Gangs on motorcycles.

  21. 21.

    Gin & Tonic

    @eric: On #2, I think you’ll find a fair number of InstaPot fans here. It’ll function as a slow cooker if that’s what you want, but will do a ton of other stuff besides.

  22. 22.

    raven

    @JWL: Sonny Barger was a consultant on this gem. They do beat up some squids at an amusement park.

    ‘Hells Angels on Wheels’ is a surprisingly tough and entertaining b-grade 60s biker movie. Jack Nicholson plays a gas attendant named Poet who becomes involved with some Hells Angels. Their leader Buddy (Adam Roarke) takes a shine to Poet, and Poet is attracted to Buddy’s old lady Shill (Sabrina Scharf). Nicholson went on to movie superstardom, Roarke to cult status and an untimely death, and Scharf a bit part in ‘Easy Rider’ and then a career in politics. Most people will probably watch this to get some cheap laughs out of early Nicholson. He is actually pretty good here, better than the material deserves, but the real star performance in the movie is from the seriously underrated Roarke. Roarke was often the best thing about the sometimes awful movies he had to appear in (see ‘Dirty Mary Crazy Larry’ for example), and he exudes charisma and intelligence here. Director Richard Rush obviously valued him, as he reteamed him with Nicholson in the hilarious ‘Psych-Out’ and even gave him a small role in his masterpiece ‘The Stunt Man’. ‘Hells Angels on Wheels’ obviously isn’t anywhere near as good as the latter, but it is much better than you’d expect and definitely worth tracking down.

  23. 23.

    opiejeanne

    @sukabi: Someone pointed out that Trump’s right hand is covering a Confederate flag patch. I don’t know if that’s true or not, that the patch is that, but I find it easy to believe.

    One guy has an SS tattoo.

  24. 24.

    Gin & Tonic

    @efgoldman:

    Apparently DC police did a hell of a job.

    And the Metro gave them their own train cars. That’s America in 2018 – public transit gives Nazis private cars.

  26. 26.

    A Ghost To Most

    @eric: Looking at a Consumer Reports on just that.

    Under $15k: 2015 Scion xB.
    Very roomy.

    Under $20k: 2015 Mazda CX-5, 2015 Honda Accord.

    Under $25k: 2015 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport.

  31. 31.

    A Ghost To Most

    @Gin & Tonic:
    I got my “genuine authentic Nagoya UT-72 Antenna, certified sold by Baofeng Tech”, with holographic certification sticker.

    I take it that counterfeits are an issue?

  32. 32.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    “They get you, they gouge you.”

    Who is “they” supposed to be?

    Also, that picture of Hannity in racist biker cosplay was equal parts precious and pathetic.

  33. 33.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @sukabi: I kind of liked the sign, that’s why I used the long foreground exposure for it. (stomps feet)

    @opiejeanne: The Milky Way is shot using 8 exposures with a technique called median stacking to reduce noise. The meteor was in the second exposure in the stack. I saw it when I was shooting and told my fellow photographer that I got a meteor(I went with the guy who organizes the Glendale Photo group shoots).

  34. 34.

    gene108

    @eric:

    New or used car? $25k sticker price or $25k after taxes and tags?

    The new Honda Civics look spiffy.

    VW Golf is fairly roomy and peppy.

  35. 35.

    Mnemosyne

    @eric:

    If you’re looking for a sedan, I’ve been pretty happy with my Subaru Impreza hatchback that cost about that much. It’s roomier on the inside than it looks from the outside.

  36. 36.

    M31

    I only know one guy with a Harley bumper sticker — it’s the one that says “Loud Pipes Save Lives” and he’s an organist

  37. 37.

    Это курам на смех

    @efgoldman: New Harley bikes from the dealership are suitably muffled like any other new motorcycle. Many of the buyers immediately ditch the unobnoxious stock muffler and replace it with a much louder one.

  41. 41.

    Mnemosyne

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Meh. It’s better than endangering innocent people by trapping them in a subway car with asshole Nazis. I’m guessing that Metro didn’t want a nasty incident where a Black or brown person ended up being outnumbered inside a train car.

  45. 45.

    HinTN

    @efgoldman: That’s just about fact for the bikers that show up at Nightfall every Friday in Chattanooga.

    Oops, nym was there earlier on the S4 but not here now. Both running Chrome. Go figure…

  48. 48.

    eric

    @Mnemosyne: That is on my list … thanks. I actually did not expect there to be as many good looking and quality vehicles.

    I was going new. The Hyundais have very good warranties.

  53. 53.

    Dan B

    @Corner Stone: You win the Snap Queen award of the day! You go gurrl!

    Having said that it’s immediately obvious that Hannity and lots of prominent wingers are so afraid of anything feminine that their insecurity about their masculinity shows through.

  59. 59.

    A Ghost To Most

    @eric: But Toyotas and Subarus don’t need them.

    Subaru Forester is a great small SUV. So are Imprezas.
    Avoid Nissan.

  60. 60.

    RSA

    …Mr. Cox, a South Carolina chain saw artist who carves trees and other objects […]: “I looked far and wide to try to get a shirt made in America, it’s just they get you, they gouge you.”

    “And as a tree carver, I know gouging when I see it.”

    A friend of mine sometimes asks why it’s not game over once we realize we’re living in a gigantic farcical simulation.

  62. 62.

    satby

    @eric: I really love my Hyundai Accent hatchback. Fantastic gas mileage and loads of cargo room for a small car.

    Get an Instant Pot, slow cooker, pressure cooker, rice cooker, etc all in one.

  64. 64.

    JustRuss

    @eric: If you’re not afraid of being uncool–and with a 13 year old daughter, you might as well embrace it–you might get a great deal on a left over Scion xB. Tons of room, and a much better engine than a Kia Soul. If the xB doesn’t work out, the Soul is certainly worth a look and priced pretty reasonably. Heck if you want to blow the whole $25K you could squeeze a Honda CR-V into your budget and be at one with the other soccer moms parents.

    You need to narrow down your criteria. As you noted, 4-doors under $25K is pretty broad. Do you crave an SUV or fear the shame of not owning one? How about all-wheel drive? I’d recommend going cheap and spacious and using the money you save for a nice vacation, or rent, but that’s me.

    And +1 re InstantPot.

  65. 65.

    Jay

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    Goku, he’s to stupid to realize that even the cheapest US Made t-shirts, because of labour costs, are gonna cost more.

    And of that $8 in “gouging”, $3 goes to an illegal in a Jersey sweat shop and $5 to the American Printer, for a cheap, thin, cotton T.

    Instead he’s buying “Made in Bangladesh, Printed in China” product.

    To top it off, it’s probably a fundraising scam.

    As for the “they” he is referring to, judging from his tat’s and patches, he’s referring to the Bilderburg Group, The Illuminati, Soro’s, the Rothschilds and of course the T-Shirt Cartel.

  68. 68.

    frosty

    @eric: I like my 2014 Mazda 3 hatch a lot. It was about $15K used a year ago.

    ETA fun to drive and an occasional 40+ mpg.

  71. 71.

    Chetan Murthy

    @eric: Uh, I once bought a 6-quart slow-cooker, not realizing it was big enough to bath medium-sized dogs in. Toooooo big.

  72. 72.

    Anne Laurie

    @raven:

    That’s America in 2018 – public transit gives Nazis private cars.

    Yes, but according to the Washington Post, the cops made the Nazis ride in the back of the bus train — “for their own protection”.

  74. 74.

    eric

    @JustRuss: the problem is there are a lot of decent options at the 20 price point and the 25 price point. I want reliability most of all. The Accord was surprisingly affordable. The Subaru AWDs look good. It appears from this group, there are many options that are all equally safe.

    Next i have to choose a dealer….lolol

  78. 78.

    HinTN

    @eric: Car – Toyota Highlander (or Camry if you can live with a sedan) with 100k miles. It’ll be fine.

    Don’t use anything but an occasional crock pot.

  79. 79.

    lamh36

    @meridithmcgraw
    New: White House @PressSec responds to Omarosa’s appearance on Meet the Press and says it proves “lack of character and integrity”

    @meridithmcgraw
    32m32 minutes ago
    White House officials looking into potential legal options against Omarosa for recoding in the Situation Room and to prevent more tapes from coming out, sources tell me and @tarapalmeri

    https://twitter.com/meridithmcgraw/status/1028763394801844224

    Right and Chump hired her….so…

  81. 81.

    lamh36

    @lamh36: BTW, of all the things I think about Omarosa, I’ve never thought of her as being stupid…we’ll see, but I’d bet her publisher/lawyers looked into the legalalities of those tapes and the info she used from them for her book.

    But we’ll see

  83. 83.

    frosty

    @eric: Be aware that with AWD if you blow a tire when they’re worn down beyond a certain amount, you’ll have to replace all four. I googled it, it’s a True Fact.

  84. 84.

    gene108

    @lamh36:

    Who the fuck is in charge of security? There is no way in hell ANYONE should be allowed to have cell phones or recording devices there.

    I wish the media would emphasize how big a systemic security fuck up this and ask, who else brings there cell phones and recording devices into the Situation Room?

    This isn’t just one ex-employee, with a grudge. This is a serious national security issue.

  86. 86.

    Ken

    @Jay:

    he’s referring to the Bilderburg Group, The Illuminati, Soro’s, the Rothschilds and of course the T-Shirt Cartel.

    So, he’s bought the cover story. Excellent….

  88. 88.

    chris

    I did not know that 40,000 KKKers marched in DC in August, 1925. Nor did I know that they got a lot of free press from the likes of the FNYT. Some things never change and here we are 93 years!!! later.

    The Imperial Wizard, meanwhile, was a “resplendent figure in royal purple robe.” The parade saw “Americanism…emphasized at every moment,” and was praised for its peacefulness and for the “absence of drunkenness in the crowd.”

  91. 91.

    frosty fred

    @chris: My grandfather (born 1900) remembered that, he accepted the Klan had a right to march but thought it wasn’t right to block streets and hold up the traffic.

    ETA: just tried the edit function, because. Smooth.

  93. 93.

    p.a.

    @chris: I believe the K got control of Indiana’s state gvt in the 20’s, with the expected results: a rape, and insurance fraud of their own supporters, among the documented crimes.

  94. 94.

    lamh36

    @lamh36:

    ooh… here comes the “incompetent sista” leaks…if it was happening to anyone other than Omarosa, I’d probably care more.

    @kylegriffin1
    Sources tell The Daily Beast that Omarosa had demanded that she oversee all of Trump’s inaugural Black History Month last year.

    But she apparently failed to do any real prep work, making promises about events and parties that never materialized…
    https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1028778156860235776

  95. 95.

    debbie

    @lamh36:

    The book’s publisher is Simon & Shuster, so no guarantee on smartness, but their legal department willl be very practiced at this kind of thing. If they don’t make a statement tomorrow, then she’s on safe ground.

  96. 96.

    lamh36

    @gene108: how about someone ask why Kelly was using the Situation Room for personnnel disputes?

    And yep…sure it’s a security issue, but didn’t Chump say he was recording everyone? She learned it from the boss…

    I could give two shits about Omarosa…or John Kelly

  97. 97.

    MoxieM

    @HinTN: I traded my (used) CRV for an equally used Toyota Highlander. Waaay better for my back, crappier gas mileage. If I could have afforded the hybrid, I would have one. I think the Highlander is even better than numerous Volvo wagons I’ve had. (And bonus feature I can fit 2 Newfoundlands in the back, ahem.)

    Also +1 for the InstantPot. A thing of beauty in the winter.

  100. 100.

    Mnemosyne

    @Baud:

    For a pure recipe app, I like Paprika. For meal planning, Plan To Eat works a little better for me. PtE does an annual 50 percent off sale every November, so hold off on buying the annual subscription until that rolls around.

  103. 103.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @Baud: KKK was very strong in Tulsa in the 20s. Not sure if there’s been any analysis of its (possible) role in the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot.

  104. 104.

    chris

    @gene108: Adam Silverman said that places like that have scanners and that they must be turned off because the shitgibbon takes his phone everywhere. Security is for liberals.

  106. 106.

    reid

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Concur; wife bought an Elantra 8 months ago. It’s a good car, and she got a good deal on it, which isn’t likely to happen on a Civic. I also like the Chevy Cruze, maybe even better than the Elantra. (We got a Cruze as a loaner for several weeks at the time.) I’m sure a Mazda 3 is also quite nice, but again, good luck finding a deal on one.

  107. 107.

    normal liberal

    @eric:
    I’m sure everyone has moved on, but just in case – I have a 3 quart Instant Pot, and it’s pretty tiny. Fine for one or two people, but you want a 6 quart if you have a group to feed, or if you want to do things in quantity to freeze.

  108. 108.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Mike in NC: Pet peeve of mine – all chaps are ass-less. That’s what they are, by definition. If they have an ass, they are “pants.”

  113. 113.

    lamh36

    easy answer… John Kelly is adjacent to power, and is trash…he used the Situation Room to show his clout and power over that woman”, besides which, he seems to have an issue w/Black women who don’t show him the “respect” he thinks he deserves…IMHO

    @renato_mariotti
    Follow Follow @renato_mariotti
    More Renato Mariotti Retweeted
    Can someone ask Sanders why the White House Chief of Staff decided to hold an unclassified exit meeting with someone who had no clearance in the White House Situation Room?

  115. 115.

    efgoldman

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Metro is safe as can be

    Right. That’s why trains derail and tunnels fill with smoke on a regular basis, much more than the ancient, overdesigned systems in Boston and New York.
    Not going to chase the stories now, but WaPo showed that the system was designed to fail.

  117. 117.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @Baud: Diane Duane swears by Paprika as a good recipe app (& she has thousands of recipes to organize). I tried it and I like it as well- it can detect a recipe in an open web page and save it in the app

  120. 120.

    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)

    @lamh36:

    he seems to have an issue w/Black women who don’t show him the “respect” he thinks he deserves…IMHO

    I suspect he has issues with anyone not showing the respect he expects, but it is likely color and gender coded for how much respect and how big an issue it is.

  123. 123.

    chris

    @Baud:

    The Roaring 20s was the KKK’s heyday.

    Yeah, they were in Canada too, quite a few of them here in Nova Scotia. Still are for that matter although brazen racism isn’t as common as it once was.

  125. 125.

    West of the Rockies

    @efgoldman:

    Yes, and why is that? Why must everybody in a one-mile radius know when yet another overweight 60 year old white guy on Viagra who thinks he’s baaaad has a Harley?

    Obnoxious damn bikes…

  126. 126.

    Yarrow

    @reid: No to the Chevy Cruze unless it has changed from a few years ago. Got one as a rental car for a week. The doors were impossibly heavy for a small car. Struggled to open them against the wind.

    The computer display would not go off and stay off, period. Read through the manual to no avail. At night it was too bright with no way to adjust the brightness so it was dangerously distracting. If you didn’t want it on, you could turn it off but the minute you did one thing–turned on the radio, adjusted the a/c fan, hit cruise control, turned on or off windshield wipers, whatever–it would pop right back on with a blindingly bright screen. Horrible design.

    The seat was also very uncomfortable for me and no matter what I did I couldn’t adjust it to get it comfortable. Never again.

  128. 128.

    frosty

    @chris: The KKK was praised in 1925 for “the absence of drunkenness in the crowd”. Shouldn’t been a big deal since the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) passed in 1920. Says something about FTFNYT’s expectations?

  129. 129.

    Gelfling 545

    @eric: I bought my Hyundai Elantra 11 years ago. I have had to put less than $1000 in repairs other than normal maintenance. It was one of the first to have a 10 year warranty. It cost about $17k at the time. When I have to buy another car, I will get another Hyundai.

  131. 131.

    Bobby Thomson

    At a minimum, all Trump supporters are racist friendly or racist positive.

    WTF happened with the whites-only train? The union said it wasn’t going to happen and then it did after all.

  133. 133.

    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)

    @frosty: It probably says more about NY and the failure of prohibition. ETA I suppose it could be read as low expectations for KKKers.

  134. 134.

    The Midnight Lurker

    @raven: Adam Roarke was a friend of mine. He was a terrific actor (terribly under-rated), a poet and a tortured soul. I miss him terribly. Even after all these years.

  136. 136.

    reid

    @Yarrow: Hm, apparently the Cruze is not without issues. I didn’t really notice them, though I vaguely recall the display was a bit bright at night. Interestingly, I found the seats quite comfortable. I also appreciated how it drove (handling, power). Moral of the story? Test drive thoroughly! (I drive a BMW X3, which I think is a great compromise vehicle; a bit out of the required price range, though.)

  138. 138.

    Ken

    @frosty: As Mad Magazine said years ago, “Prohibition: When everyone stopped drinking, except the 25 million people who didn’t.”

  139. 139.

    Yarrow

    @reid: One thing I was reminded of when driving that Cruze for a week is that it’s a good idea to test drive the car you want to buy both during the day and at night. I’ve never had issues like I had with that Cruze display but it was so distracting I know I could not have had that as my regular car but if I didn’t drive it at night I wouldn’t have known.

  140. 140.

    Jay

    @West of the Rockies:

    There’s pipes that are just loud, and then there are pipes that are engineered to improve performance up to 20% greater than stock. It’s a quick and relatively inexpensive performance upgrade for a road slug.

    The #1 killer of Bikers, is stupidity.

    The #2 killer of Bikers is not being “seen”. Louder pipes make other drivers more aware. Strobing daytime running lights make other drivers more aware. “Flash”, makes other drivers more aware.

  141. 141.

    reid

    @Yarrow: Indeed. I didn’t care enough to even look into being able to turn down the brightness; I’m just surprised there’s no way to do it. That’s quite an oversight because it can certainly be quite a distraction at night on a dark road.

  143. 143.

    Gelfling 545

    @Baud: I use One Tsp. Its free up to about a gazillion recipes. (Actually , I don’t know how many but it’s been sufficient for me & I have a lot of recipes. )

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    @p.a.:
    Bull and shit.
    The noise is behind you, unless it is so loud that people will run you over just to make it stop. Listen to a fire engine. The siren faces forward and is almost painful it’s so loud. Right up until the time it goes past and they the level drops by about 80%. On a bike the noise is behind you, exactly the place that it does no good as a warning device. It’s great as a piss off the world device though. And on a side note any level of noise that is loud enough to be heard by a car driver with the windows up, the a/c on and the radio playing, after you drive by will damage your own hearing in short order. Being deaf is no fun.

  146. 146.

    Chetan Murthy

    @efgoldman: I’m no fan of motorcycles. But I’ve been told by a number of riders that the big noise is to ensure that all drivers in their vicinity know that there’s a bike there. B/c too many drivers are damn inattentive. On this point, the riders are in the right.

  147. 147.

    p.a.

    @Baud: If health is an issue, World’s Healthiest Foods has daily and weekly meal plans, and they are good, usually without esoteric ingredients.

  148. 148.

    PsiFighter37

    Seeing that Keith Ellison now has domestic abuse allegations against him? Sheesh…

  152. 152.

    Schlemazel

    @lamh36:
    The GOP chairwoman tweeted that Omarosa is a liar etc and should be ignored. She was swamped with people reminding her who hired Omarosa and many others.

  153. 153.

    PaulWartenberg

    so, seriously:
    ONLY 24 Nazis showed up for the DC rally?

    Granted, there’s always the fact that more people stay home than go out for a rally. But that they couldn’t even guarantee turnout above 100 for the nations’ capital is just… hilarious.

    Also granted, we’re talking about a region – Maryland-DC-Northern Virginia – that would not be a haven for a lot of Far Right racist muthafuckas. But DC is within driving distance for a lot of places – West Virginia, North and South Carolina, the evangelical / suburban white parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania – that ARE havens for white bastardry.

  154. 154.

    Platonailedit

    @proud boys fail.:

    “Scores of white supremacists had been expected to rally on Sunday in Washington, DC, for the second “Unite the Right” rally, but only a small cadre of right-wing demonstrators ultimately showed up — and were vastly outnumbered by counterprotesters.

    The small group of white nationalists made their way to Lafayette Square opposite the White House from a local metro station, and were swamped by a flood of police, press, and counterprotesters. While hundreds of people were out on the streets of the nation’s capital, some reporters estimated that only 20 white nationalists were among them.

    “There were a lot of people who were at last year’s rally who are very scared this year,” Jason Kessler, the “Unite the Right” organizer, told the few supporters who did show up.

    Kessler blamed others in the far right for the poor turnout. “A lot of these people who are tough guys, wannabe Nazi types said, ‘Don’t go. It’s gonna be a shooting gallery. You’re gonna be hurt if you go,'” he said. “Well, alright, tough guy Nazis. I’m not a Nazi. I’m a moderate and I’m standing here, and you’re in your momma’s basement.”

    Racist rats turning on each other. Hilarious.

  155. 155.

    Shana

    @eric: Younger daughter just bought a 2016 Toyota Corolla for $20,000 at a Carmax in Dallas.

    OT, older daughter was downtown DC today as a legal observer but didn’t report any incidents, at least to me.

  157. 157.

    Schlemazel

    @Yarrow:
    I had the same issue with a Ford Escape. It was possible to dim and set a day/night setting when the car was in park but as soon as you turned the car off it would reset. I found that my cell phone was just the right size to block most of the display.

    BTW – maybe the most uncomfortable car I have ever ridden in. The seats were narrow, thin, hard and not well shaped.

  159. 159.

    Steve in the ATL

    @eric: @A Ghost To Most: “Under $25k: 2015 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport.”

    Picked one up as a rental car today, for the second time in two weeks. Solid car. Avoid the Tucson; it’s horrendously unpowered.

    Steve on St. Simons Island

  160. 160.

    p.a.

    @Platonailedit: . I’m not a Nazi. I’m a moderate

    When you have to begin a statement with “I’m not a Nazi…”

    Reminds me of: If Hitler’s Germany was a Nazi dictatorship, Mussolini’s Italy was a semi-Nazi dictatorship, Franco’s Spain hemi-semi Nazi dictatorship, Salazar’s Portugal a demi-hemi-semi Nazi dictatorship…

  162. 162.

    Schlemazel

    @Jay:
    Odd that in Europe bikes are not loud but there are fewer casualties. I have seen 4-5 bike accidents and none would have been prevented by noise. I just don’t buy it

  163. 163.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @eric:
    I love my Kia Forte. It drives smoothly and gets decent fuel mileage in the city (average of 25 mpg). It has 162 hp so it has good acceleration. I highly recommended it.

  165. 165.

    Steve in the ATL

    @frosty: “I like my 2014 Mazda 3 hatch a lot.

    ETA fun to drive and an occasional 40+ mph”

    You are a speed demon!

  168. 168.

    Schlemazel

    @PsiFighter37:
    I posted about this in an earlier thread. I am not voting for Ellison in his current run (had a bit of a meltdown here when he walked away from his seat to run against the endorsed SoS candidate) but this deal is bullshit. _IF_ the allegation is true why wait until 2 days before the primary to make the claim?

    Same bullshit deal with the SoS who is running against the endorsed Gov candidate. A disgruntled ex-employee waited until Friday to claim State employees were strong-armed into working on her campaigns.

    If these charges are true why wait? If they are I hope both pay the price but this last minute ambush bullshit should be ignored

  169. 169.

    debit

    A little over a week ago I saw a critter scurry under my car. It was a sweet little girl cat, who really really wanted love and food. I gave her a can of food, but had to get to work, so left her and hoped that she was just out for a walk and would return to her home. I didn’t see her again, but kept leaving food out and it kept disappearing. Then she showed up again today, even skinnier. So I nabbed her and brought her inside. And don’t give me shit about the quality of the picture, she will not stop moving.

    Right now the cat is in quarantine until Friday when I return from a trip and can get her to the vet and get her checked over for a chip. If none, then I’ll have her get the full workup: shots, test for Feline Leukemia, baseline bloodwork for a spay, if needed.

    I really, really, really can’t have another cat. My daughter is fighting me on this, but really, I just can’t. My plan is to offer her up for adoption here. If a juicer takes her, I will pay for the spay. I really hope someone does. She is a little love bug, will not stop cuddling and headbutting and purrs so hard that her entire frame shakes. I’m calling her Merril (if you played Dragon Age 2 and you can see her nose and ears, you will understand why). It’s probably a bad sign that I named her, isn’t it?

  173. 173.

    Ruckus

    @Schlemazel:
    Yep.
    If fire engine sirens were the same level as a bike with no muffler, no one would ever pull over. A fire engine siren is 140-145 db, a bike with no muffler is 115-120 db, which is a huge difference and pointed in the wrong direction as a warning device. Noise just does not propagate in that way. But science doesn’t work, stupidity is better. Wonder how many flat earthers ride harleys?

  175. 175.

    lahke

    Late to the party but want to recommend the Honda Fit. Only car I tested where I could really see out the rear window in the mirror. The window is large and the rear seat headrests retract to give a complete view. Also, Honda has a right side mirror camera so that you can get a view down the side of the car and the bike lane, which is great for driving in town. The older I get the more I want visibility when I drive.

  176. 176.

    Schlemazel

    @Ruckus:
    I have read recently that hearing loss has suddenly been recognized by bikers as a real problem. They are blaming “wind noise” according to the article I read.

    Yeah, wind noise

  179. 179.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Yarrow: “No to the Chevy Cruze unless it has changed from a few years ago … The doors were impossibly heavy for a small car. Struggled to open them against the wind.”

    Dossier update: Yarrow needs to hit the gym!

  180. 180.

    lahke

    @lahke: Forgot to mention that it gets over 30 mpg in town and over 40 highway, and barely cost me anything in maintenance in the 4 years I’ve had it.

  185. 185.

    Ruckus

    @Schlemazel:
    Wind noise is a problem, not because it’s loud, although it can be, but because it is constant at an elevated level. Hearing loss comes in two ways, short exposure to high levels and long exposure to moderate levels. I have a damaged aural nerve from an industrial explosion that I was standing next to so I get a tone on that side 24/7, at the frequency of the explosion, 3K hz and will live with that for the rest of my life, it’s not repairable. Normal hearing loss can somewhat be made up for with hearing aids but can you see a harley rider wearing a hearing aid? Actually I can, had a friend who would be in his early 80s now, who rode HD, was a dealer in fact and wore one. All those years with loud bikes, who’d of guessed that could cause a hearing loss? OSHA maybe?

  188. 188.

    efgoldman

    @Platonailedit:

    “There were a lot of people who were at last year’s rally who are very scared this year,”

    Which is why I’m not askeert of these assholes. They’re all cowards and they can’t organize a one car funeral.

    Fuckwem

  189. 189.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    The thing I discovered when I moved to the UK was how cheap cars were compared to the US. I bought a Hyundai Amica for 500 quid. I have been driving it for a year and it is perfect. Passed its MOT with just a few repairs, and I expect to drive it for another year with no problems. When I was looking for a used car in the US I couldn’t even find anything under $4K.

  190. 190.

    frosty

    @Steve in the ATL: ETA fun to drive and an occasional 40+ mph”
    West side of the Baltimore Beltway at rush hour? Yes, 40+ would be a speed demon. OT, but that’s where my Miata was totaled at about 35 mph. One year shy of hitting 25 years, too.

  191. 191.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @eric: May I respectfully suggest that, once you decide on a make & model, before you buy anything, you visit this website – that is, http://www.fightingchance.com – & read through the presentation?

    I’ve used Mr Bragg’s service in the process of buying my last two autos. Each car ended up costing me $2-3K less than the invoice price; the process was fast & nearly painless & practically all the dealers I contacted were willing to play – I even got complimented for using the procedure (which in effect asks the dealers to bid on the make/model/options/color you specify). You don’t even darken a dealer’s door except to sign the papers & take delivery. Well worth the price; highly recommended.

  195. 195.

    Ruckus

    @lahke:
    About the same for my Ford Focus. Decent room, hatch back, comfortable, 4 adults fit. Wouldn’t want to ride cross country at 6ft tall in the back seat but short rides are OK. Around town/commuting normally about 30mpg and all highway can be over 40.
    Of course Ford has decided to get out of the actual car business and focus (no pun intended) on SUV and trucks. So I can’t recommend them to anyone. Quite a bit less than 25K out the door. I do recommend a back up alarm to anyone buying a new car. Rather cheap and far more useful than I imagined. When I bought my car I told them I didn’t want the backup alarm but it was on the car so they just reduced the price. I’m sure it didn’t hurt their bottom line.

  196. 196.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Platonailedit:

    “There were a lot of people who were at last year’s rally who are very scared this year,”

    This is, thankfully, the crucial difference between our current situation and Nazi Germany’s. Our racist extremists are utter chickenshits. They don’t have the guts to demonstrate anywhere they don’t feel absolutely certain the police are on their side and will protect them.

  199. 199.

    Jay

    @Ruckus: @Ruckus:

    Sound travels 360 degrees, at if I remember right, 740mph, a little bit faster than bikes. Yes, at close range, the sound is louder directly behind the bike, but at distance it averages out.

    Some States have laws that regulate the allowable amount of noise from a bike and enforce it. Some Munincipalities as well.

    Some States don’t, or don’t enforce it.

  201. 201.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @reid:
    It depends on how you drive. I drive mostly short distances and in the town currently. Lots of stopping and starting at redlights. On the freeway the average goes up to 38 mpg.

  203. 203.

    Schlemazel

    @L85NJGT:
    Ah, under the influence. Not just bikes but cars too. It is a very positive change that we as a society have stopped seeing drunk driving as OK and started making it more like an actual crime.

  204. 204.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @eric: No you don’t. Use the Fighting Chance procedure (see my post at #191) & let the dealers fight over your business while you relax at home! :D

  206. 206.

    Baud

    @rikyrah: My unrealistic dream is sailing around the world in a sailboat.

    My realistic dream is driving around the country in an RV.

    I am unlikely to do either.

  210. 210.

    lamh36

    In today’s who gives AFUQ news…

    KKK Grand Wizard David Duke Is ‘Concerned’ About How He’ll Be Portrayed In Spike Lee’s ‘BlacKkKlansman’ https://www.essence.com/entertainment/kkk-david-duke-spike-lee-blackkklansman?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=social-button-sharing via @ESSENCE

  211. 211.

    Amir Khalid

    @Steve in the ATL:
    I will never be in danger of hearing loss from electric guitar playing. I have a cat who disapproves of loud noises, and who complains whenever I unplug my headphones from my wee Fender Champ 20.

  212. 212.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lamh36: I don’t see why he is concerned. He should know. He will not come out of it well.

    ETA: Womp womp.

    ETAA: New edit function is cool. Congrats guys.

  214. 214.

    L85NJGT

    @Gin & Tonic:

    NPR has a piece up about how sedentary Sturgis is this year. It’s become a festival for older non-riders. That’s the pathos of Trumpsters standing athwart history and yelling stop – it just doesn’t work. Cultural shifts, and things change.

  216. 216.

    frosty

    @rikyrah: That’s us. Been trailering for 25 years. Two Coleman popups, and we just bought our 3rd hard-sided trailer. This one’s big enough for the 3 month trips we want to take when I retire (soon). My wife is hooked on the RV youtube channels, particularly the boondockers; although running out of battery last month sort of soured her on the idea. Solar panels don’t do too well in 100% cloud in New Hampshire.

    Going RV isn’t one of the ones she watches though.

  218. 218.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Schlemazel: And specifically a positive change that being “under the influence” not only doesn’t work as an alibi for hazardous actions, it actually increases the penalties for them. Drivers are presumed to know that drinking impairs one’s ability to drive.

  220. 220.

    Brachiator

    @rikyrah:

    Anyone here do the RV thing?

    I don’t know. RVs are too big and unwieldy.

    Sailing around the world sounds like fun.

    ETA. I met some people who belong to a mini-Cooper club who drive all over the country. Kinda cool.

  223. 223.

    sigyn

    @Ruckus: Maybe loud pipes don’t save all of the lives, but that one time I almost had my own “did not see the motorcycle” incident, I would have pulled out right in front of him; except I heard him coming.

  224. 224.

    Ruckus

    @Litlebritdifrnt:
    Take a close look at the cars though. For a few reasons in the US we get one choice of engine in most cars. In the EU there often are several for the same car. The Honda Fit (Jazz in the UK) here it only comes with one engine. In the UK you can get 2 different sized engines here it’s only the bigger engine, 1.5L. Almost all cars that are sold in both Europe and the US are the same, so you often aren’t comparing the same car.
    Also, how long do most people drive a car in the UK, how old are the used cars? I had a 18 yr old van that I traded in on my Focus. It’s a different market here than in the UK. How many people on this blog talk about how owning a 20 yr old car? More than a few. That 18 yr old van I bought second hand, owned it for half it’s life and traded it for almost what I paid for it. We don’t have auto inspections in CA like the MOT or Germany, most states don’t. We have emission inspections, but no safety. And the places I’ve lived that did have inspections were for wipers/headlight alignment etc, not to see if the wheels were falling off.

  227. 227.

    Jay

    @Schlemazel:

    Ever hear a Ducati at full wind?

    Keep in mind, the pitch is different, and we are talking about lead sleds here, fat, wallowing pigs of the road, and their riders.

    In my experience, 75% of motorcycle accidents are due to rider stupidity. 25% due to driver stupidity or inattention.

    I learned the hard way not to pass cars in city traffic, out side of a stream of traffic, with out making eye contact with the driver via his side mirrors, before passing. Ditto for one direction controllef intersections.

  230. 230.

    Bill Arnold

    @lamh36:

    Authoritarianism expert hints Lindsey Graham may be covering for Trump due to the 2016 Russian hacking of his own emails

    ??? There has been speculation about this for a long while, based mainly on observed changes in Lindsey’ Graham’s behavior and positions.

  235. 235.

    Bess

    @Ruckus:

    Ford is quitting the sedan business and replacing sedans with crossovers. They’re just building what the market wants.

  237. 237.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @L85NJGT:
    Just like what’s happening with NASCAR right now. Sure, the sport has shot itself in the foot with constant rule and format changes. The Great Recession didn’t help either. But honestly, the culture has shifted a lot since its heyday in the 90s and early 2000s. A trans woman was elected to state office in Virgina just last year. Finally, car culture has been declining for the last few decades and most teens wait to get their licenses until 18. Car ownership has become prohibitively expensive. The increasing complexity of the cars themselves has turned off most people from tuning them.

  238. 238.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Bess: Uh, not quite. They’re abandoning low-margin parts of the market, and fleeing to high-margin parts. SUVs can be built on light-truck frames, are hence cheaper to build, and sell for higher markups. It’s about margins.

  239. 239.

    Gravenstone

    @efgoldman: My recently departed neighbors had one close to that size parked at their place before the sale went through. Guessing they’re ‘touring the country’ in that monstrosity now.

  240. 240.

    Ruckus

    @rikyrah:
    Have traveled a bit in an RV, even have driven a class A, which is the big jobs. This particular model was horrible, wouldn’t drive straight to save your life. That’s 5 hrs of my life I’ll never get back.
    On the other hand I’ve driven a truck with a motorhome build onto it, they were called toterhomes, that towed a trailer. 27 ft long, 300 HP Cat diesel/auto trans, full class A motorhome accommodations and it would tow a 52 ft 3 axle trailer like it was nothing. OH to socal in just over 3 days. Not as much fun to back up as one might imagine but doable. Limiter was for 75 mph, many states allow that in a big truck. No scales was the big reason but I believe that several states/feds have fixed that issue.

  241. 241.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Bess: All those soccer moms are going to regret buying those stupid trucks and SUVs they don’t really need when gas hits $5/gallon sometime in the not-so-distant future.

    Not everybody wants to drive a truck, SUV, or “crossover”, anyway. I just hope other manufacturers don’t follow Ford’s asinine model.

  242. 242.

    Schlemazel

    @Baud:
    We used to talk about selling the house & bumming around in an RV for a few years after retirement & before moving into an apartment. Two problems. An RV we would want to actually be in full time ain’t cheap & at 10 MPG using diesel means ~40 cents a mile. I just don’t see that in our retirement budget

  245. 245.

    Schlemazel

    @Platonailedit:
    I wonder how big an impact was made by naming & shaming some of the assholes a year ago. “A’hm a nazzee but ah don’t want the neighbors to know”

    And don’t discount the humiliation of pointing out the tiki touches

  247. 247.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Bill Arnold: It is very odd that Lindsey is so supportive of Trump despite Trump’s public disdain for Lindsey’s buddy, Senator McCain. Plus, Trump released Lindsey’s private cell phone number during the campaign season out of spite.

  248. 248.

    Elizabelle

    @lamh36: That’s T Bogg writing.

    Would not doubt Lindsey Graham has changed his tune due to blackmail or being compromised in some way. Very sad.

  249. 249.

    Spanky

    Just got back from our annual Perseid trip to Shenandoah NP. An annual tradition started by 4 20-somethings who are now all 64. Still tent camping, but man, is that getting old. On the way out we toured the RV side of the campground – change is in the air.

    I’ve gotten Mrs. Spanky mildly interested in a trailer, so we can park it and drive around like normal folks in a pickup rather than in a bus. Her only real requirement is a “real” bathroom. Something with a separate shower stall, I suppose. Been pondering the smaller (no 5th wheel) slice of the market with decent bathrooms.

    And we were mostly clouded out, meteor-wise. Best part of the 2 nights was a 15-20 minute slice of absolute clarity last night where the dark lanes in the Milky Way between Cygnus and Cepheus just absolutely popped out. So that and a couple of nicely bright Perseids made the trip worth while.

  250. 250.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    I see plenty of trucks and SUVs where I live. But I also see plenty of sedans and hatchbacks as well. Numbers don’t lie though. More trucks and SUVs were sold last year than sedans according to my local news.

    I think it comes down to a desire to want to be sitting above everybody else and a perceived sense of safety because trucks and SUVs are large heavy vehicles. Nevermind that whether in a truck or a smaller car you’re likely going to be just as dead in an 80 mph accident.

  251. 251.

    frosty

    @Ruckus:

    And the places I’ve lived that did have inspections were for wipers/headlight alignment etc, not to see if the wheels were falling off.

    In PA it’s a pretty thorough inspection. They check tire tread and pull the wheels to check brake wear, along with horn, lights, wipers, etc. I’ll be getting a brake job with the inspection this week. A few years ago I had to get new metal welded onto a rusted frame member in my Miata. Plus rocker panels, ’cause the rust holes were bigger than 3/4″ diameter.

    Oh, and I junked a Jetta because the Check Engine light was burned out. They won’t inspect it unless it works, and since they had to pull the dash out to fix the light it cost more than the car was worth.

  252. 252.

    efgoldman

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    Not everybody wants to drive a truck, SUV, or “crossover”

    We turned in our leased Camry sedan in favor of a Rav-4 AWD. Mrs efg, who (unfortunately) does all the driving, and is very short of stature, soooo much prefers the comfort, driving position, and visibility of the crossover.
    It’s basically a larger, higher body on the Corolla platform.

  253. 253.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Barbara:
    I think that describes the car pretty well. It’s pretty quick and handles well. It’s a lot of fun and is relatively cheap.

  255. 255.

    Schlemazel

    When I was a kid my dad bought a used school bus (back in the 50s they still had life left in them) and converted it for camping. Gas 3 burner stove & oven, gas fridge and it slet 2 adults & 6 kids. We saw Mt Rushmore, the Canadian wilderness, and many other great places. It sold me on being a good way to travel the country.

  256. 256.

    some guy

    Roomy, comfortable sedan for under $25K ?

    Dodge Charger. You can get it with a V8 or V6, and it makes driving fun fun fun. With the six you can get 28mpg, but I prefer the Hemi, with an added cold air intake, headers, and a Flowmaster catback. Use a tuner (I use the Diablo iTune2) and you can get it up to 150, though it does get a little skittish when you climb above 120 mph. Fits FIVE adults quite comfortably.

    Mopar, or no car.

  257. 257.

    Ruckus

    @raven:
    Message received.
    Yeah I suspected as much. On a warship there really wasn’t much room to hide anything. (Even on the LPH I was discharged from after about 3 weeks on board. And that could carry 930 Marines and their gear.) Of course once on a return from Europe, on the DDG, we got boarded by the Marines about 3 hrs out and the searched the ship with dogs, trying to find dope. All they found was a very old brick of hash that had to have been there from well before anyone on the ship reported aboard. Either the guy couldn’t remember that he’d stashed it or couldn’t risk getting found out. Speaking of which we had a guy who was shooting heroin and no one knew. He got found out because a lifer saw him with the needle in his arm, in a compartment that almost no one ever entered. He seemed straight as an arrow but I’d guess that he was just floating is why no one suspected.

  258. 258.

    Corner Stone

    @Spanky:

    Still tent camping, but man, is that getting old. On the way out we toured the RV side of the campground – change is in the air.

    It took you 40 fucking years?

  259. 259.

    frosty

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    The increasing complexity of the cars themselves has turned off most people from tuning them.

    Absolutely. I tried to replace a headlight bulb and even with the benefit of Youtube I couldn’t figure out how to get the old one out, and I was pretty sure I’d screw up putting the new one in. So down to the mechanic to pay for a half hour of labor.

    Complexity like this wiped out DIY’ers and it’s killed Sears Craftsman tools*, which were good enough for us occasional car nuts, but not for the pros, who went for Snap On and MAC Tools etc.

    * along with the assholes who bought Sears and are running it into the ground.

  260. 260.

    frosty

    @Spanky:

    Her only real requirement is a “real” bathroom. Something with a separate shower stall, I suppose. Been pondering the smaller (no 5th wheel) slice of the market with decent bathrooms.

    When we upgraded from the popup it was so we wouldn’t have to walk to the bathhouse any more in the middle of the night … and it was getting more frequent (sigh). A wet bath (shower sprays on to the toilet) was a deal breaker for Ms. F.

  262. 262.

    Doug R

    @eric:

    (1) any thoughts on car under $25k….there are many more options out there than i thought there would be….need four doors (and possible a hatch — 13 year old daughter with friends)

    (2) what is the best slow cooker (preferably under $25k as well)

    thanks

    1) Our 2003 Honda Civic lasted over 200,000 miles
    2) Instant pot. It’s a computerized pressure cooker, cooks a lot of stuff in about half the time. Plus it can be used as a slow cooker. And they’re around $100+.

  264. 264.

    Brachiator

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    Car ownership has become prohibitively expensive.

    Prohibitively? I don’t think this is true.

    The increasing complexity of the cars themselves has turned off most people from tuning them.

    This is why God invented auto mechanics.

    I could change a tire, but otherwise never cared for doing car repairs myself. Also, after a while, called the Auto Club for tire changes.

  266. 266.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    They haven’t stopped yet, I think 2020 may be their last year. Hell they may rethink this. But they have been extremely successful with trucks/suv so this may not be a bad decision on their part. And what says they can’t start making cars again? Well the pissed off customers might have a bit to say. This is my last car as far as I can tell but what will this mean for my resale value when I can no longer drive and have to sell it?

  267. 267.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @frosty:

    along with the assholes who bought Sears and are running it into the ground.

    Don’t even talk to me about that. My local big shopping mall has a Sears and its closing soon. It’s really going to hurt the mall. They have other big stores but that empty space is going to empty for years to come. The same kind of vultures helped kill Toys R Us too. Another part of my childhood dead.

  271. 271.

    efgoldman

    @frosty:

    it was so we wouldn’t have to walk to the bathhouse any more

    First year we were married (’79) got talked into traveling in a pickup camper with my in-laws. Worst of it was having to find my way to the toilets in the dark.
    [I always felt, if gaia wanted us to go camping, she wouldn’t have made Holiday Inns]
    Wee smalls one nite I just decided to pee out the back door and not wend my way, Turned out I was pissing on a skunk. Didn’t bother it, probably thought “stupid human, why is it marking its territory?”

  272. 272.

    Doug R

    @eric: 3 quart is only for singles. I find a 6 quart is perfect for 3 or 4 people, any smaller, you can’t fit a chicken or pork ribs in properly.

  273. 273.

    Brachiator

    @Schlemazel:

    When I was a kid my dad bought a used school bus

    This sounds like fun. And different enough that it might make trips feel special.

  274. 274.

    Ruckus

    @Steve in the ATL:
    Look up cars in the EU. Ford sells a 1000cc 3 cylinder turbo Fiesta that gets 65 mpg in normal driving, not bad for gas at what is paid over there. We gloat over 40 mpg on the highway. That Honda Jazz has a 1.3 normally with an option for the 1.5 that we get. Top Gear did a trip once in 3 cars, all with small engines, part of the gag was that they had to drive into Chernobyl on 20L of fuel. That meant that they had to figure out how to run out before they got to the city or risk running out while there. Two managed to run out, Clarkson made it into the city before he did. He said he had to walk out but of course that was BS.

  275. 275.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Brachiator:
    For teenagers and young adults it has. Underemployment and wage stagnation has left even buying decent used cars expensive.

    I don’t have a problem taking my car to a mechanic. But the point of my original comment was that because newer cars aren’t really user friendly in mechanical sense, that has turned off people getting interested in auto racing, particularly stock car racing.

  276. 276.

    Calouste

    @Steve in the ATL: For small cars is Europe 1.5 liter is the bigger engine. There will be a 1.3 and maybe even an additional 1.1 below that. Your average European car (a VW Golf or similar) comes with a 1.6 or a 2.0 diesel standard, 1.8 as the upgrade, and 2.0 turbo as the high end.

  277. 277.

    Schlemazel

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:
    In truth the management in the 90’s killed Sears by not recognizing the value of their catalog operations and turning them into online operations. They could have crushed Amazon like an ant. The vultures just hopped on & picked the bones clean in the particularly vulgar way they do. No department store will be left.

  279. 279.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Ruckus:
    Is there any way for an American to purchase cars meant for the EU? 65 mpg sounds great! It makes more sense for a country as large as ours anyway

  280. 280.

    Schlemazel

    @Brachiator:
    It was not bad. He had worked for a long time & had a lot of vacation (union job! 5 weeks by the time I can remember) but not a lot of money. He would save all his change every day & with gas at 17 cents a gallon it paid for the fuel. Sadly for mom, she still had to cook!

    We had many good times in that creat

  281. 281.

    Spanky

    @Corner Stone:

    It took you 40 fucking years?

    Eh, I can manage just fine for a couple of days a year, but I’m the fittest of the four. One guy’s on a CPAP and another needs to be and isn’t. I could probably manage to keep on for a few more years. The Mrs never will again, I suspect, and I’d like to find a good option to mid/high end hotels.

  282. 282.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    @lamh36: Glad you have a graduate adviser already! To draw on personal experience, your graduate adviser will rapidly become one of the more important people in your life, The relationship is similar to a Master/Late apprentice (Remember that the university started out as a Renaissance/Late medieval institution.

    Also: you will do two things in the future. One, you will curse him (in private hopefully) to the skies at least one point. Two, you will Freudian slip and call him/her mom or dad once.

    Enjoy Graduate school!

  283. 283.

    Jay

    OMG, this video of Jason Kessler on the Vienna Station platform frantically making a call after they take his wooden flag poles away is delicious. #ShutItDownDC #UniteTheRight2 #AllOutDC
    1:14
    295K views

  285. 285.

    Brachiator

    @Schlemazel: Very ironic that Sears, which Rose to prominence in part because of its catalog, could not see the value of online retailing.

    I ordered some stuff online from them a number of times, and the process was not as easy or as efficient as Amazon.

  286. 286.

    Ruckus

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:
    The way our emissions laws are written and enforced really won’t allow that. A long time ago you could purchase a car in Europe, pick it up at the factory and they would ship it over to the states for you. You’d go through your local dealer and so all the details would be taken care of. Then people wanted to purchase a car that wasn’t built for the US market and bring it here. Sort of like the Class A truck market for what is known as sliders, a brand new chassis/body but no engine, you purchase an older engine, have it rebuilt and installed. It will not pass current emissions regs but it was legal for a while. No longer, same with the cars. Now having said that you supposedly can buy a Ford Focus sedan with the 1000cc triple, turbo charged, called an EcoBoost engine. At this time I don’t see that as an option.
    ETA also that engine doesn’t get the mileage here that it does in Europe, the emissions laws are different, the tuning is different. And the 2L non turbo engine gets almost the same as the 1L turbo in our driving cycles. It just isn’t worth it to mfg in the states to try and sell cars that get that kind of mileage. It’s mostly a no go.

  287. 287.

    Jay

    @Spanky:

    For salmon and steelhead, (fall, winter, early spring), I switched from a tent, to a box canopy on my Yota, 2 inches of foam board insulation, and a Sunbrella tent, lined with thinsulate, that attached to the canopy and tailgate.

    R10 insulation in the “sleeping quarters”, R7 in the 80 sq foot “kitchen/bathroom/living room” with a canvas tent woodstove for heat.

    Now a days you can get Alaskan Campers, Expedition Campers, or get a Hino (Toyota) Crew Cab 5 ton 4×4 flatbed and build your own.

  288. 288.

    Bill Arnold

    @Elizabelle

    Would not doubt Lindsey Graham has changed his tune due to blackmail or being compromised in some way. Very sad.

    Links from late 2017.Wondering why the story is re-emerging; not complaining though. Compromise doesn’t just sublimate away. (Though the compromised can die. Technically, dammit :) ).
    What Is Going On with Lindsey Graham? Is He Compromised? (December 11, 2017)
    and more mainstream,
    Authoritarianism expert: Russia hacked Lindsey Graham’s personal emails so Trump may be blackmailing him (22 December 2017)

  290. 290.

    frosty

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    But the point of my original comment was that because newer cars aren’t really user friendly in mechanical sense, that has turned off people getting interested in auto racing, particularly stock car racing.

    I missed your original point, but I tend to agree. Gearheads tend to be racing fans too; and it’s harder to be a gearhead these days.

  291. 291.

    frosty

    @Spanky:

    I’d like to find a good option to mid/high end hotels.

    Take a look at hybrid trailers with flip out bunks. More living space since the beds aren’t inside the trailer volume. And for an ex-tent camper, you’re still sleeping under canvas, which I always liked. Good ventilation, too.

  292. 292.

    mike in dc

    1) They couldn’t carry guns in DC
    2) There was going to be a massive police presence
    3) Thousands of counterprotesters

    It’s little wonder all these wankers would have loved to come, but were stuck washing their hair, babysitting or reorganizing their historical war memorabilia collections(and besides, Mom said no).

  293. 293.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jay: BTW, thanks for the naval gunfire link from the other night. OTOH, my real issue was with your suggestion the muskets had a range of 50 yards. My understanding is that muskets’ had a range of 350ish. Were you talking about aimed range?

  294. 294.

    Platonailedit

    @Jay:

    The best replies

    “You guys can’t make an exception for us?” is pretty damn funny.

    “Make an exception for the shitheels that are the reason we have the rule in the first place? Uh…..no.”
    I’m kind of surprised he didn’t add, “But–but–I”m white!!”

  295. 295.

    Jay

    @Brachiator:

    That’s not what killed Sears.

    They had a fully funded Pension Plan. To the Vultures, that was hundreds of millions in cash that 70% could be looted.

    They owned their own real estate, which was several billion dollars that could be sold off.

    They earned 15% profits after all was said and done, that could (via real estate sales and pension defunding) be turned into half a decade of 30% dividends, allowing phase 3, stock inflation and sales.

    Short term profit for their long term gain. Sucks for everybody else.

    In Canada, while the pension payouts have been slashed 80% during the bankruptcy proceedings so far, the Chair and the Board took home over $3 million in bonus’s so far.

  297. 297.

    Yarrow

    @Steve in the ATL: The timeframe in which I rented that car was prior to my life falling apart. I was actually in pretty good shape and I knew it wasn’t me. It was just a weird car. I’ve never had that happen with a car before and certainly not a small car. You are correct I need to hit the gym, although am back going fairly frequently including today.

  298. 298.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Jay:
    That was absolutely priceless. Those shitheels used the wooden flag pools as clubs so I’m proud of DC police for doing such a great job. Better than places like Berkley. He wanted them to make an exception for them! It must have stung to be told no by a POC officer.

  299. 299.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yup, accuracy. Volley’s at 100 yards didn’t work out well for the Immortals at Waterloo. Holding fire to 25 yards did for the Scots Guards.

    “For that, which we are about to recieve,…….”

  301. 301.

    A Ghost To Most

    @Schlemazel: I’m about to embark on designing and building an off-road teardrop trailer. Big enough to sit and sleep in, but still small enough to take off road. I figure I can do it for 6-7k.

  302. 302.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Jay: Someone I know well worked in “retail finance” (== “deciding what to buy at what price & qty; what price schedule to set for markdowns, etc”). She told me that, yeah, Eddie Lampert (the private equity who bought it) did all those tricks, really drained the place. But also, he had no -idea- how to run a retail business. Did gynormously stupid things like making different departments bid against each other for space in advertising circulars. Insane shit. All of this nearly 10yr ago.

    Maybe by then it was too late, and AMZN was already on the rails to kill them. Maybe they didn’t understand online sales. But notwithstanding, they were first bled to death, and then kicked repeated in the groin, abdomen, kidneys, and head, by Lampert’s incompetence.

  304. 304.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jay: You didn’t make that clear. Or, as a gunner, I didn’t get that you were talking maximum effective ranges. At 1500, guns could do damage.

  306. 306.

    Origuy

    The noise from a Harley passing by sets off my car alarm. I’d like to disable the car alarm; it came with the car and is more of an annoyance than anything.

  308. 308.

    Bess

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Then why do I see small cars all over the place?

    Because companies make them and people buy them. Ford has is still selling small sedans but the run is about over. They will have one compact crossover in the future. But their profit center is pickups and SUVs.

    Do you think it’s Ford’s responsibility bo build cars that people don’t want to buy or might the problem be with what people want to buy?

  309. 309.

    Jay

    @Chetan Murthy:

    In Canada, the final indignity, was the move to Department Associates and Installation Services. Areas that were staffed by employees, became “independent” small businesses under contract to Sears.

  310. 310.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Bess: Again, it’s not quite that simple. Fleet fuel economy ratings forced car makers to offer better prices on fuel-efficient cars than on gas-guzzling SUVs, even though the SUVs were overall higher-margin cars (b/c cheaper to build). With those fuel-economy standards being suspended, car makers can eschew having to sell the fuel-efficient cars to balance out the gas-guzzlers.

  311. 311.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess: No, my opinion is that Ford has decided that if it doesn’t offer any other options, people will buy what it offers.

  313. 313.

    Bess

    @Ruckus:

    The testing procedure is different the EU. They allow cars to remove mirrors and windshield wipers and put tape over all open seams (hood gap, etc.) before testing for aerodynamics. The same car tested in EU will have a high MPG than in the US.

  314. 314.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess:

    Ford has is still selling small sedans but the run is about over.

    Evidence? People in cities can need cars and more people live in cities than don’t. In a city, anything larger than a CR-V is nuts.

  320. 320.

    Bess

    @Chetan Murthy: Ford made their announcement before Trump started talking lowering efficiency standards.

    Ford will not be able to sell only large pickups and SUVs even with somewhat relaxed standards. I expect to see them announce a longer range EV soon.

  321. 321.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess

    : Raising the rear of the roof a few inches and replacing the trunk lid with a rear hatchback door is “bloating”?

    That is creating a station wagon/ estate car. Every crossover I have heard of raised the chassis. This one didn’t?

  324. 324.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It’s different at sea. Your firing platform is pitching and rolling.

    During the War of 1812, one of the most effective Privateer Captains of all time, figured out that if he set up a bell and clapper, so that the bell struck on an even keel, and trained his gunners to aim and fire on an even keel, broadside hit’s at 100 yards, went up 80%.

    For a Privateer or Pirate, you don’t want to sink the ship, you want to capture it, ideally intact. You can’t hoard the specie, sell the cargo and ship, if it’s in Davy Jones Locker.

    So deception, steath, treachery is Plan A.

    Plan B, cripple the ship by bringing down a mast, or crippling the rudder. Check out an era cannon at a Historic site or Museum. Look down the sights. Imagine what you could actually do in regards to an aimed hit on a rudder or mast, given the inaccuracy of the gun, and what that means for ranges of engagement.

    On the “land” field of battle, aiming a cannon at Company A, and hitting Company C, still has an effect. At sea, it’s just another iron ball on the ocean. The worst case for a Pirate or Privateer, accidentally hitting the other ships magazine on first broadside.

    While long guns did have an actual range often exceeding 1500 yards, ( the length of a modern SuperTanker) the accuracy of the gun, combined with the pitch and roll, meant that other than for a fluke shot, 99.9% of shots fired, would miss.

    The major effect of long guns and broadsides at long range, was psychological. The “hey, they’ve got 16 guns and we’ve only got 4”, to compel a surrender.

  326. 326.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Spanky: unless you actually live in an RV, it doesn’t make any sense. Horrible gas mileage, they depreciate worse than cars, and they aren’t cheap. For what you spend using an RV for occasional camping, you could stay in hotels – and since you’re in an imitation house anyway, why don’t you?

  327. 327.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Bess:
    I don’t want to drive a crossover. I’m not some soccer mom. I want a sedan that looks like a sedan. Other manufacturers better not follow suit or I’ll be pissed.

  329. 329.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Platonailedit:

    Maxine Waters called Trump”Putin’s apprentice”

    Do you all understand how much this will get under his skin?

    Will it? I thought he had some weird admiration for Putin. Or it fear?

  332. 332.

    Brachiator

    @Jay: The vultures added to problems, but sales and revenues were declining. Brands like Kenmore lost their luster. Demographic shifts hurt them. Stores were in locations where people no longer shopped.

    Selling real estate also meant selling stores and eliminating future revenues.

    And didn’t they hire a guy from Apple to lead them, but this turned out to be a bust?

  334. 334.

    Bess

    What surprises me is this a site where liberals comment. People you expect to be concerned about climate change. Yet there’s not been a mention of EVs or PHEVs.

    It’s time for us to get off petroleum. Actually, past time.

  335. 335.

    Yarrow

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??: Sedans seem to work best for old people to get in and out of. With most crossovers and SUVs people have to take a step up to get in and a step down to get out. That can be challenging for people with mobility issues.

    Of the seniors I observe who still drive, most have sedans. Many of their children and other friends and family have other types of vehicles and I’ve seen seniors struggle to get in and out of pickups, SUVs, crossovers and even one time a small Jaguar convertible. As baby boomers age I wonder if sedans will become more popular again.

  337. 337.

    efgoldman

    @Yarrow:

    With most crossovers and SUVs people have to take a step up to get in and a step down to get out.

    Which we very much prefer.
    Really old farts around here drive Crown Vics or comparable Mercuries.

  339. 339.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess:

    People you expect to be concerned about climate change. Yet there’s not been a mention of EVs or PHEVs.

    Do you mean in this open thread or at the blog in general?

  341. 341.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Bess:
    EVs aren’t the most practical vehicles in the US currently. The infrastructure just isn’t there yet, especially in rural states. I do agree there needs to be more investment in these technologies however.

  343. 343.

    lamh36

    Good night BJ.

    Going to bed now…sending prayers up for the Queen of Soul Aretha Franklin!!!

  346. 346.

    Bess

    Getting in and out easily is mostly an issue of how high the seat is off the ground. Some sedans (and all sports cars) are low, some pickups and SUVs are high. Small SUVs might be the easiest, perhaps some larger sedans.

    Door opening are another issue. Older legs often don’t bend very easily. I have problems with the rear doors of the Camry and the front doors of the Subaru Forester, for example.

  350. 350.

    StringOnAStick

    @A Ghost To Most: For your trailer building project be sure to look at Overland Trailers for ideas. Some friends bought one a d it has high clearance and lots of clever features that are off the shelf components. I’d link but hard to do on a Kindle.

  351. 351.

    Bess

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    I agree. But a used Leaf could be an excellent car for multi-car families. One can get a very nice used Leaf for $10k or less and save significant money not buying fuel. Between fuel and maintenance savings the car may pay for itself in six to ten years.

    The Volt seems to be a well made car. Many people drive Volts as their regular, only, cars and use fuel only on trips.

    Things will soon improve. Tesla should be selling the $35k version of their Mudel 3 before the end of the year. They already have superchargers that allow one to drive about anywhere they want to in the lower 48 and western Europe. Nissan is releasing a 150 mile range version of the Leaf for under $30k in a few months.

  355. 355.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    “People you expect to be concerned about climate change. Yet there’s not been a mention of EVs or PHEVs.”

    Do you mean in this open thread or at the blog in general?People you expect to be concerned about climate change. Yet there’s not been a mention of EVs or PHEVs.

    Do you mean in this open thread or at the blog in general?

    This thread in particular but on the site in general.

    I’ve seen really harsh statements about Elon Musk and Tesla on this site which I don’t understand.

  356. 356.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Holds true for muskets, actually, it’s worse for muskets. The bulwarks protect 99% of the “enemy” crew from fire. A Brown Bess ain’t doing nothing but denting a 4″ thick pine, tamarack or oak bulwark, even at point blank range.

    As a result, “marksmen” were placed in the crows nests and rigging, to fire downwards onto the decks. At 350 yards range, you’ld only be able to see, less than 50% of the enemy’s deck above the bulwarks.

    Quartering a 15 foot swell, the “sniper” would be arcing through a 90 foot circle, side to side, forwards and back, on a cycle set by the ships speed. Basically, being on the Zipper Ride at the State Fair with a Brown Bess and trying to pick off a carny.

    So while the musket ball could kill at 350 yards, on land, you couldn’t even come close to an aimed shot at 50 yards.

    The best use of a Brown Bess for a pirate or privateer, was to wait until the two ships were alonside each other, grappled together, then shoot into the mass of resistence or officers.

    Can you imagine trying to reload a Brown Bess while riding The Zipper?

  359. 359.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    I see a lot of pickups and suvs here in socal on my drive to work but I see a lot of small sedans/hatchbacks as well. Unless you are convinced that you need to carry a lot of crap it works fine. The big trucks/suvs get much better mileage than they did just a few years ago but we still use a lot more fuel than in, as they used to say on Top Gear, the civilized world. But most places not in the country in that world have decent public transportation. We are getting better but we have a ways to go. An example would be a 79 yr old gentleman that I know who hates trains, more specifically he hates that tax money is being spent on them. He sees no use for them. He doesn’t care that they are more fuel efficient per passenger mile. They cost enough that the only way we will have more is government spending his tax money. But his kind will be and are dying off and won’t be able to stop progress for ever and we won’t be going back to the 1950-60s no matter what he wants. The economy has/is changing, the jobs we do have and will change, the world will go on with or without him.

  360. 360.

    Yarrow

    Lol. I’d missed this tweet earlier today.

    Omarosa! I hear you mentioned me on Meet The Press. Don’t reference me or use my name. Keep my name out of your mouth. You have done enough. Your lies and crazy behavior are catching up to you. Can you say National Security breach? Lawyer up!— AprilDRyan (@AprilDRyan) August 12, 2018

    Still remember Robin Roberts saying, “Bye, Felicia” on GMA when Omarosa was fired. Heh.

  361. 361.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess:

    I’ve seen really harsh statements about Elon Musk and Tesla on this site which I don’t understand.

    I can’t speak for everyone but that’s mainly because Musk is a fantasist and a con man. Fuck him.

  362. 362.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Bess:
    I think people don’t like Elon Musk because he’s an egotistical, glibtarian asshole who tries to drum up support for unrealistic concepts as opposed to ones more practical and achievable. I particularly don’t like him for inserting himself into the Thai cave rescue and donating to the anti-science House GOP campaign fund

  363. 363.

    Matt McIrvin

    @lamh36: I’m thinking now that the Trump Administration went out of its way to hire only completely reprehensible people so that they could be easily discredited when they inevitably quit or were fired, and started dishing dirt on Trump.

  364. 364.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    Please explain to me what makes you think Musk is a conman.

    And you might also explain why you would dislike a fantasist – “a person who imagines or dreams about something desired”. Especially a naftasist who makes it happen.

  367. 367.

    Jay

    @Brachiator:

    Nope, they sold the stores well before the property bust, then rented the locations back, through a Vulture 3rd party.

    Basically, your kids having power of attorney, selling your paid off house for $300k, pocketing $200k as a “executive bonus”, then using the $100k, to rent the house back for you to live in, at $3k a month, with $1k going into their pockets as a “commission”.

    In 2.8 years, you are homeless.

    My Dad’s 2nd job was Sears, then he went to pension. In 1999 he told me Sears was hosed, he hoped they lasted long enough to pay benifits when he died.

    Yes, Sear’s could have been an online monster, but Management was only interested in looting.

  368. 368.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Bess:

    I’ve seen really harsh statements about Elon Musk and Tesla on this site which I don’t understand.

    I think most regular commenters here long for the day when EVs are really practical for all of us. I myself have a tiny gas-guzzler that I fill up like …. once every couple of months (?) and that I hope will be my last IC car. Maybe my last car if driverless cars arrive soon enough (OK, OK: 10yr). But we’re pretty realistic, and “hope is not a plan”. Neither is “great marketing”. Or “look! a squirrel!” And at least for myself, I’ve become pretty disappointed by Musk’s BS. He seems to manifestly be unable to organize auto manufacturing at scale — something that’s been done worldwide in every industrial nation for …. >100yr. I’ve been unimpressed by the way that, every so often, he’ll pop up with something that’s “interesting” but also wholly unrelated to “how to get large numbers of cars out reliably and with acceptably low defects”. battery wall. EV semi-trailers. submarine for the kids in that cave. It goes on and on.

    I -want- him to succeed. But I’m unconvinced that he will, b/c I’m unconvinced that he has the required skills. Someone once wrote of a famous general in ancient Rome, that what recommended him for generalship, was that he was the man to call, if you wanted to organize a city-wide fete. More recently, Brad Delong commented on Adam Tooze’s lectures on Prussian militarism in the 19th century, that basically they were all about maneuver and tactics — the operational part of war — and completely neglected the strategic side: economy-wide reorganization to sustain total war, proper maintenance of alliances to harness one’s allies’ economies, etc. In short, since 1864, all they understood was “blitzkrieg” (and if that failed, then “blitzkrieg again”, by gum!)

    My analogy with Musk is this: the task of organizing a massive industrial effort to produce cars at volume with low defects is -very- different from either software development (as it was practiced when Musk founded Paypal) or rocket engines (which are few in number, and thus rather bespoke by comparison with cars).

    Maybe he succeeds. For myself, I had a little $$ in TSLA; I sold on last week’s runup (due to his (to me) BS about taking TSLA private). I’m happy to be out, and happy that he came out with that BS, b/c I was prepared to sell at a much lower price.

  369. 369.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @Bess: Electric Vehicles are very important for our future, I agree. Glad to see more options at lower price points. I’d like my next car to be an EV (but my Prius will probably run for many more years). Lots more infrastructure needed, especially grid work. Would love to see that in the infrastructure bill our next Dem president signs into law.

    Unfortunately, Elon Musk is revealing himself to be a batshit crazy narcissist, but that’s beside the point.

  370. 370.

    debit

    @rikyrah: I think she’s a youngster, maybe 6 to 8 months old. She has a Siamese triangular head and a Siamese personality (loud, opinionated). She is just the loviest cat I’ve ever met.

  372. 372.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: Come on. You have to know this. The hyperloop proposal shit?
    Nobody except a scammer tells the world they are going to take the company private at X$ without an offer sheet.

  374. 374.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Corner Stone: And *Mars, Bitchez!*? HAHAHAHAHA! Again, an attempt to -distract- from TSLA’s failure to deliver on mass-production.

    I remember reading about how he spent all that $$ on factory robots (anybody remember the plot of “Roger and Me”?) and they didn’t work; heck, he bought a factory automation consultancy to try to get it done. Carmakers around the world said “we tried that, it didn’t work, he’s not gonna succeed” and whaddaya know! He didn’t succeed . The last straw for me was reading about setting up that second assembly-line in the parking lot under tents, where he had people assembling cars. FFS. FFS. What rubbish.

  377. 377.

    Bess

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    I think people don’t like Elon Musk because he’s an egotistical, glibtarian asshole who tries to drum up support for unrealistic concepts as opposed to ones more practical and achievable. I particularly don’t like him for inserting himself into the Thai cave rescue and donating to the anti-science House GOP campaign fund

    I don’t see Elon as an egotistic but we can disagree on that.

    What do you mean by “glibtanian”? What’s your personal meaning?

    As for the Thai cave rescue someone online ask Musk if there was anything that he could do to help out. He contacted the rescue team and got the specifics of the tunnel – diameter, turns, distance stuff. Some of the engineers at SpaceX designed and built a rescue pod. Musk flew the pod to Chiang Mai and stopped off here in Humboldt County to pick up some flexible rescue pods that a local company had developed and constructed overnight.

    Musk took the pods to the cave. During the construction time and travel time the rains let up and the rescue crew was able clear enough water out of the cave that most of the distance could be traveled with one’s head out of the water. There was only one section where it was necessary to use air. Full face masks that would fit the boys had been delivered so there was much less danger of them panicking and losing their respirator.

    Musk did left the rescue equipment in the case it might be needed sometime somewhere else and came home. Did you see any videos of him getting in front of the cameras and bragging about himself or something? I’ve not been able to find anything along that line.

    I’m not seeing any stepping over the foul line there.

    Musk explained his fairly small donation to Republicans. If you don’t give something doors are not opened when you want to talk to some people. Unfortunately our government is now largely pay to play. Giving to both parties is very common. He gave a much larger donation to the Sierra Club.

    If there’s something you think I don’t know please fill me in.

  378. 378.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Saw Aretha Franklin trending on twitter. I guess she’s in the hospital and it’s serious.

    God damn

  382. 382.

    Aleta

    @debit: For some reason I don’t see your link to her picture. What site does it go to?
    (I’ve been adjusting various settings but so far nothing shows up in your text.)

  383. 383.

    Bemused senior

    @eric: We’ve bought two low mileage Prius used cars from Enterprise (and one new one before). Had very good luck with all three. Two were for our daughters.be

  384. 384.

    Ruckus

    @Bess:
    Over the years Musk has made a lot of statements that he hasn’t been able to do. He constantly overreaches and sticks his nose in places that seem like he is only doing it for the publicity. The Tesla is a nice car, not build well enough for the money and his after sale service practices can leave a bad taste in a lot of mouths. Yes he’s trying and has changed the face of electric cars but the reality is that a lot of people will never be able to purchase one of his cars. It’s a status car. I even know someone who owns one and he loves it. Now you look at a more down to earth electric car for some where like socal and you see that most don’t have a safe range. I do see a lot of Volts, it isn’t a bad car, it has decent range and the backup that makes it work here. An electric might work for me, some days, but a Leaf would be scary to drive across the city and expect to get back. Besides there is no place to plug it in in my building, even to charge overnight. In some parts of the country a lot of us are just are not equipped for an electric car that either costs $80K and/or takes 12 hours to charge, if you can even plug it in. A Focus Electric costs almost 8 grand more than the gas model and has a range of 100 miles, maybe less at LA driving speeds. My Focus gets 30ish around town, 40 on the open road for about 350 miles to a tank. I fill up every 5-8 weeks. I sound like a perfect electric car customer. But it’s physically impossible.

  385. 385.

    Cowgirl in the Sandi

    Probably too late for this thread, but when my husband and I retired, we sold our house and bought an Airstream 27′ and drove it all over the country for 2 years with a Ford 150. It was wonderful! We sold both after we bought another house but now after 4 years, we are on the road again with a 22′ Airstream Bambi pulled with a Tesla Model X. Fun times!

  386. 386.

    Jay

    @Bess:

    Musk’s ventures, don’t run off profits, they don’t run off revinues, they run off of a continual stream of new investment.

    His commercial ventures over promise, under deliver, and rely on the exploitation of his workers, and still arn’t profitable.

    Yes, his ventures are advancing the science and engineering, but for Musk.

    The big tell, was after a big stock drop based on missing Q2 projections by a large margin, he “publically” mused about taking Tesla back to being private. The stock jumped 10% on the idea that Musk would have to buy the stock back at the Seller’s price, not the Buyer’s price, or the Market’s price.

  387. 387.

    Matt McIrvin

    @lahke: I don’t know about the recent models (there was a major redesign of the Fit a few years ago) but I have one from 2010, about 150,000 miles on it, and it’s still running great, with no major repairs beyond the usual sort of brakes/tires/battery replacement and a couple of busted windshields. (I think the A/C is on the blink, though, need to have that looked at.)

  388. 388.

    Bess

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Tesla did not have the several billions that would have been required to build a factory capable of producing “a million” cars per year. Some sort of very high production levels would be necessary to make a profit and stay in business selling EVs at Camry prices. So Tesla started with a $70k to $100k luxury sedan. They built that car and a second SUV up to the point at which they could produce their next car, a car about the size and cost of a BMW.

    The first Model 3s are the more expensive models. Again, it’s important for Tesla to maximize profit as they build up volume. Tesla is now producing about 5,000 Model 3s per week and expect to be around 10,000 per week by the end of the year. Right now the M3s being sold start at $50k but by the end of the year or early next year they should be selling a $35k version.

    The $35k M3 will be cheaper than a 3-Series BMW and roughly the average selling price of all US cars.

    Tesla is now talking about a less expensive EV but haven’t gone further than a mention to date.

    As for the ability to succeed, the Model 3 is killing other cars. It’s on track to outsell the Correla, Camry and Civic combined in Q3, 2018. Quality issues were largely ‘fit and finish’ and those were early on. There were body panel alignment problems at first but several additional sensors were added to give the assembly robots much more precision. I’ve seen no mention of significant problems over the last few months.

  390. 390.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Jay: Yeah, if I hadn’t already decided I wanted to sell (and was just really, really procrastinating), that would have told me “sell sell sell”. The guy has a deadline with Fate — either he delivers enough decent-quality Model 3s by YE2018, or he’s SUNK — and he’s fucking around with taking the company private? That’s *nuts*.

  391. 391.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yeah. When I was planning to sail around the world, I thought a Winchester Model 70 in .308, with a bipod and scope, would be just the ticket, for Pirates in the Red Sea or Phillipine Sea.

    So I took a buddy’s down to the boat, set sail in the Salish Sea in calm weather, and tried to take aim. I could hold it on target for a micro second, had to constantly reaim, and after less than 10 minutes, was puking violently, and I never get sea sick.

    BTW, I shoot a dime at 1500, and was professionally trained.

    Figured out, 12 guage buck at 50 yards, I’d still miss roughly half the shots.

  393. 393.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @Bess: Musk was a sore “loser” about the Thai rescue (it should have been all about him, I guess) and personally attacked one of the rescuers. That pissed a lot of us off, and further-revealed his level of disfunction.

    Details: Vox

  395. 395.

    Amir Khalid

    @James E Powell:
    Unlike the Champion 100, the Hot Rod Deluxe is a valve amp requiring (a) twice as much Vitamin M, and (b) regular valve replacement and maintenance. The HRD has the more classic sound, to be sure, but given my non-pro ambitions I can’t really justify the expense. I have given some thought to programmable digital amps like Fender’s Mustang v2 and Mustang GT 100-watters as well as Marshall’s Code 100 (combo of course, not half-stack), but I prefer the simplicity of use of the Champ series’ presets.

  396. 396.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Bess: Here’s CNBC on Model 3 and other factory issues: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/05/tesla-factories-have-struggled-with-scrap-production-rate-reports.html

    But the real kicker is near the end:

    Morningstar’s Dave Whiston said, “I’ll be surprised if any of the votes go against management’s wishes. If you don’t like Tesla’s governance or don’t believe in Elon, then Tesla stock probably doesn’t make sense to own.”

    It shouldn’t require “believing in” a CEO, to invest in the company. The company is supposed to have processes, a cadre of managers, and a track record, that shows it’ll get where it claims it’s going. And so, looking at TSLA, it sure seems like they don’t have that. Instead, they have Musk, who’s really good at convincing his fans that he’s The Second Coming of … Somebody, I don’t know who.

    Also, you wrote a bunch of stuff about TSLA’s history (they started at the high end, expecting to use those sales to both work out the kinks, and to fund mass market cars). All of that is true. But it’s also true that the Model 3 is supposed to be that mass market car. It’s supposed to be the one that shows that TSLA can actually be a mass market car maker. In short, it’s “put up or shut up”. To a great extent it’s his inability to deliver the Model 3, that started me looking critically at TSLA.

    And then, well, as I and others have documented: when your company is at a make-or-break moment, that’s not when you scream “Look! A squirrel!” like Musk does, time after time.

    Done enough times, that trick makes the onlooker suspect that Musk is a grifter. I’m not -quite- there, but give it a few more times he pulls this trick, and I’ll be there, alright.

  397. 397.

    barb 2

    @rikyrah:

    We have a trailer for RVing — nice and compact. We leave the trailer behind when we want to take the jeep trails in the southwest.

    Many folks in RV campgrounds have dogs and cats (we have both). Most are snowbirds — and it makes sense to have your own home for the winter escape. I love Washington state but the damned endless rain and NO sun for months in the winter is getting really old.

    I see that many folks that drive the big rigs also tow a vehicle.

    We like the small travel trailer for snowbirding. We also have the option of a larger trailer but that requires a huge nasty ugly truck. I love my jeep for the back roads — the old ghost towns in the southwest etc. Whatever the jeep can pull is our limit. Travel light and bring the fur kids along — don’t have to worry about not finding a place to stay in a remote area because of “no pets allowed”. If all else fails we can overnight in a Walmart or similar place. There are apps for that, as well as RV campgrounds.

    RVing isn’t for everyone. Downside — a hell of a lot of the snowbirds watch Fox “news” on big screen TVs in their big rig RVs. Yeck.

  398. 398.

    Jay

    @Bess:

    “What do you mean by “glibtanian”? What’s your personal meaning?”

    A glibartarian is somebody who’s read way too much Ann Rand, no economics, and gladly embraces 10 contrary ideas at the same time, before morning tea.

  399. 399.

    Amir Khalid

    @Chetan Murthy:
    I suspect Elon’s main reason for wanting to take Tesla private is that it irks him to have to answer to shareholders from the general public — mere mortals, pah!

  400. 400.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    Come on. You have to know this. The hyperloop proposal shit?
    Nobody except a scammer tells the world they are going to take the company private at X$ without an offer sheet.

    Well, since another company has already built and tested the concept on a short track I think we have to admit that there is some chance of success.

    As for Musk, he’s working toward the hyperloop in a stepwise fashion. First step is a very fast subway system that will probably be built in Chicago. People will be able to travel from the financial district to the airport at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour. Very quick and cheaper than taking a cab. (And the Washington,, DC to Baltimore tunnel may still be under construction. I just haven’t heard anything lately.)

    If that system works then look for systems to be built in many cities which have already shown an interest.

    The rapid subway, The Loop, will give Musk’s Boring Company opportunities to perfect their tunneling techniques. The next step would be to turn the tunnel into a partial vacuum and host a >600 MPH version.

    Perhaps the Hyperloop won’t work but there are hundreds of highly skilled engineers who think it will and are working on versions. I think Musk has the best approach by going underground. Land access is easier, no streams and highways to cross. No problem with yahoos shooting a hole in the tube. No problems of heat expansion which would need some sort of telescoping tube solution. If it works then we might be looking at a four hour way to travel coast to coast at less than the cost of flying and with none of the turbulence/weather problems.

    Will Musk take Tesla private? I think it makes sense. They needed to go public in order to raise capital but they’re past the money squeeze point now. He can go private again and not have to deal with stock owners who push for quarterly profits over long term growth and won’t have to deal with the crazy stock shorters.

    Will it require a huge amount of money? Probably far less than most think. What stock Elon and other top people at Tesla don’t own is largely owned by large organizations and if they think Tesla is a good long term investment now I’m not sure why going private would change their minds. They’d probably appreciate less volatility in the stock price.

  401. 401.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Amir Khalid: From Tesla (TSLA) shorts don’t believe Elon Musk will take company private as the board ‘evaluates’:

    As of the last report, the short position on Tesla was worth over $12 billion. If the company goes private, the shorts will have to cover their position and with Tesla’s stock rising as Musk plans to go private at $420 per share (significantly higher than the current trading value), the shorts would lose a lot of money.

    [I no longer care, b/c I’m no longer a TSLA stockholder but] My suspicion is that he’s trying to force a short squeeze, drive those shorts out. Again, something he wouldn’t be doing if he were confident of being able to meet production and quality targets. It’s the most shorted stock in history.

  402. 402.

    Fair Economist

    @Schlemazel: It isn’t so simple. Sears created Prodigy, the first mass market internet service, and desigbed it to be a shopping platform. Their problem was they tried it too early and lost pots of money. Amazon started ten years later and focused on books, a high value high diversity market well suited for online shopping.

  404. 404.

    Aleta

    @Aleta: @debit: Yeah she’s special. Such eyes. Let us know what the vet says. A sweetie who knows there’s no place like home. So easy to fall for.

  406. 406.

    Bess

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Actually Tesla is close to operating their autonomous assembly line without human labor. Part of the line did not function as expected. They removed part of the line and put in humans in order to keep production going. Since then they have solved some of the problems and turned some of the human tasks back to robots.

    Tesla is doing something that hasn’t been done before. No one expects a perfect launch with a brand new rocket. It generally takes a few failures to discover and eliminate all the bugs. But Tesla is now ‘landing the first stage on a barge’.

    The sweet thing is that once they perfect a single assembly line then they can simply replicate that line and double the output.

    The assembly line under the “tent”, the temporary structure? It increased production numbers and increased revenue. Tesla needed to reach profitability this year so they made a move that gave them more cars to sell.

  407. 407.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Bess:

    there are hundreds of highly skilled engineers who think it will and are working on versions.

    Uh, this -is- the nub of the problem with Musk. Lots of engineers in the relevant field (auto manufacture) have pointed out the many, many problems with his approach to making cars. The same can be said for Hyperloop. I mean, mechanized mass transit is -also- a >100-year-old field, right?

    At which point, it comes down to “who do you believe?” Obviously, I can’t convince you to believe me, or that I know how to read the literature better than you do. But (as with global warming) when the preponderance of recognized experts in a field say that something isn’t going to work … well, you have to take that as some reason for having skepticism about the something.

    But really, if you believe in it, that’s great. I was just trying to explain why I don’t. As are others.

    P.S. But really … “Mars”? I mean …. someone pointed out: if he really believes in colonizing Mars, he should be EVEN MORE a believer in underground dwellings ON EARTH. B/c that’s where his colonies will be on Mars: underground. WHOLLY UNDERGROUND. (b/c Mars has no appreciable magnetosphere, earth-like life can’t survive except under massive shielding). I mean …. it’s *ludicrous*. And we’re supposed to take a man seriously who can’t get this level of the science right?

  408. 408.

    Bess

    @Yarrow: @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    Musk was a sore “loser” about the Thai rescue (it should have been all about him, I guess) and personally attacked one of the rescuers. That pissed a lot of us off, and further-revealed his level of disfunction.

    What did Elon do that leads you to think he was a sore loser? All I can find out is that he showed up with a couple of solutions. Found that they weren’t needed. Left.

    The person Elon attacked first posted that Musk should take his pod and stick it up his butt. The guy claimed that the pod wouldn’t even make it through the first 50 meters of the cave. The cross section drawings I’ve seen show the first tight spot and bend about a kilometer in. And the pod was designed to transverse that turn.

    Musk should not have called the guy a pedo but the guy clearly was an asshole.

  409. 409.

    Corner Stone

    I am going to go to bed before “Bess” determines my IP address and/or GPS positioning. That is the most terrifying shit I have seen online in some time.

  411. 411.

    Yutsano

    @Bess:

    Tesla is doing something that hasn’t been done before. No one expects a perfect launch with a brand new rocket. It generally takes a few failures to discover and eliminate all the bugs. But Tesla is now ‘landing the first stage on a barge’.

    Uhh…none of that is Tesla. That’s a completely separate company called SpaceX. Yes owned by Musk but it’s a totally different operation, Which to be fair has been more successful than Tesla although (last I looked) still not profitable.

    You’re getting sloppy. You might need to give this up for tonight.

  412. 412.

    Fair Economist

    @Bess:

    Model 3 is killing other cars. It’s on track to outsell the Correla, Camry and Civic combined in Q3, 2018.

    lolwut? The Camry alone sells almost 10,000 per week, twice the Model 3 current sales.

  418. 418.

    Yarrow

    @Jay: They are. I don’t get this one, though. Does this person work for Tesla? Has Musk hied an army of Russians to convince people at top 10,000 blogs about his greatness? It’s just weird.

  419. 419.

    Bess

    @Ruckus:

    Over the years Musk has made a lot of statements that he hasn’t been able to do. He constantly overreaches and sticks his nose in places that seem like he is only doing it for the publicity. The Tesla is a nice car, not build well enough for the money and his after sale service practices can leave a bad taste in a lot of mouths.

    Musk has described his timelines as aspirational, not delivery dates. He has described how he sets very aggressive time goals so that everyone will stay focused and productive. Apparently that’s a technique used with some regularity in Silicon Valley. If you don’t understand what his dates mean the you will assume he fails to deliver on time.

    In fact, some things such as the Model 3 have been delivered early. Other things have come fairly late. They had a problem with the Roadster because the drivetrain manufacturer did not deliver a product that would hold up to the specified torque of the electric engine and Tesla had to take the project inhouse and manufacture their own drivetrain.

    They had unexpected problems with the falcon wing doors for the X. That project was delayed as well. Musk has said that they made a mistake by trying to get too fancy. But owner seem to really like the doors.

    Tesla was not able to drive coast to coast autonomously by the end of 2017. Elon said that they could do it but it would be more of a trick because the system is only capable of operating on a very well mapped and marked highway at this time.

    Tesla may be late on some things. But they are ahead of everyone else on just about everything. They are pioneering. The trail has yet to be blazed and sometimes one ends up in a blind canyon.

  420. 420.

    Bess

    @Ruckus:

    an electric car that either costs $80K and/or takes 12 hours to charge, if you can even plug it in. A Focus Electric costs almost 8 grand more than the gas model and has a range of 100 miles,

    By the end of the year or early next Tesla will be selling a very nice EV with a 250 mile range and a extensive system of superchargers for $35,000. Owners should save over $1,000 per year via fuel and maintenance savings. And people who purchase in the first half of next year will get a $3,750 tax credit bringing the cost down to just over $30k.

    Average driving distance in the US are about 35 miles. You can replace that loss in about three hours changing on a standard 240 vac outlet. If you need a big charge you can fill a Tesla up to 80% in about 40 minutes at a Supercharger. Private companies are starting to install rapid chargers for other EVs at the moment.

  421. 421.

    Amir Khalid

    @Bess:
    Elon showed up when the Royal Thai Navy was already executing a rescue plan it had designed and prepped for. The last thing it needed was some know-it-all showing up and saying, “Here, use my gear.” Proposing to disrupt an ongoing rescue operation with last-minute changes is generally not a wise thing to do.

  422. 422.

    L85NJGT

    @Fair Economist:

    Sears had fat margins and a load of capital. So they spun up a bunch of companies – Discover, Allstate, Advantis, Sears Hardware, etc. They then rode the mothership into the ground. It’s hard to argue they could have done anything different over the last twenty years – traditional department stores have gotten wiped from the retail marketplace. It’s just more cost effective to spin up a white sheet than to turn a dinosaur.

  423. 423.

    Bess

    @Jay:

    Musk’s ventures, don’t run off profits, they don’t run off revinues, they run off of a continual stream of new investment.

    His commercial ventures over promise, under deliver, and rely on the exploitation of his workers, and still arn’t profitable.

    Yes, his ventures are advancing the science and engineering, but for Musk.

    The big tell, was after a big stock drop based on missing Q2 projections by a large margin, he “publically” mused about taking Tesla back to being private. The stock jumped 10% on the idea that Musk would have to buy the stock back at the Seller’s price, not the Buyer’s price, or the Market’s price.

    Amazon didn’t make a profit for, what, 21 years? Tesla is almost certain to be profitable the second half of this year. Only something like a factory fire would prevent it.

    Tesla may or may not exploit workers. The union that wants to organize Tesla workers may or may not be making that charge.

    Actually Tesla’s stock prices rose before the Q2 financial report was released because it was obvious that Tesla had solved the majority of its assembly line problems. If you look at the five year record you’ll see that stock prices are pretty good, just volatile

    Musk suggested a buyout price of $420. The stock has never closed above $390 so that’s hardly a lowball price. Plus no one is required to sell. If you’ve got stock you only sell if you want to.

    Because there is something like $12 billion of stock that is shorted and since those accounts will have to be settled if the company does go private it’s likely the price will go much higher. A very much higher. That will be the market price. If someone likes that price they can sell and get it. If they think the upside for Tesla is higher then then can hold their stock.

    Musk actually did the shorts a big favor by giving them a warning that he was not required to give. He could have waited, let the board make the decision in private, and then announced the date of the transition. It could have been short after the announcement which would have really screwed the shorts.

    He also told the shorts that they would be best to cover a few weeks ago. He told them that there was a huge bloodbath likely ahead, he just didn’t say what might cause that bloodbath.

  424. 424.

    Jay

    @L85NJGT:

    Sear’s had a boatload of capital and assets. They spun up a bunch of other valuable enterprises.

    Then they got “vultured”.

  426. 426.

    Yarrow

    @Amir Khalid: My favorite thing about the commenter’s description of what happened is this part:

    As for the Thai cave rescue someone online ask Musk if there was anything that he could do to help out.

    So he did it because “someone online” asked him to? Sounds like an easy mark.

  427. 427.

    Yutsano

    @Amir Khalid: Sshhh…s/he has determined that everything St Elon does is perfect and we’re just foolish beings for not recognising his brilliance.

  430. 430.

    James E Powell

    @Amir Khalid:

    Don’t know vitamin M. Maintenance? The fragility of valve amps is often exaggerated. I used two different amps in my playing days and going out three or four nights a month plus practice I maybe had to replace one tube a year. I’ve got a friend who swears the Roland Blues Cube 30W is all anyone really needs. I guess might be a snob, but I can never get the tones I want from solid state generally and presets specifically. But as we say, all taste is taste. Play what sounds good to you.

  433. 433.

    Bess

    @Chetan Murthy:

    From your link –

    The Daily Beast report also says that Tesla’s Fremont plant had “more than 10,000 factory employees making about 100,000 cars last year,” which equates to a production rate of just 10 vehicles per employee annually.

    Those 100,000 cars were MSs and MXs. Tesla had a large number of people working on the M3 assembly line setup. Lots of those would be temporary positions, workers building a new operation.

    Morningstar’s Dave Whiston said, “I’ll be surprised if any of the votes go against management’s wishes. If you don’t like Tesla’s governance or don’t believe in Elon, then Tesla stock probably doesn’t make sense to own.”

    What’s his point? Tesla stock is highly speculative. The price is not at all supported by the ‘numbers’. People and many very large financial organizations have invested in Tesla because they do believe in Musk and the people working with him. If one doesn’t believe that Tesla can’t pull it off they should not buy the stock.

    Now, you. A mass market car. Is the BMW 3-Series a mass market car? The Model 3 is about the same size and the entry level version will sell for less. The 2019 BMW 3-Series starts at $45,000, the Model 3 starts at $35,000. By the end of the year Tesla should be producing about 10,000 M3s per week, a rate of over a half million a year next year.

    I’d call that a mass market car. Not a low priced car but considering the lower operating cost ownership over a few years will be cheaper than that of a tarted up Camry.

  434. 434.

    Ruckus

    @Bess:
    Come on this is really Elon isn’t it?
    Is it possible that you might actually read and have some understanding about what people have written? Let me spell it out for you, slowly.
    I can not afford a Tesla, not at $80K or $30K.
    I can not charge any electric car where I live and there are very few charging stations near where I live.
    I normally drive my car when I have to go distances or when I have to carry stuff. See the distances part?
    An electric car uses a lot more energy at speed, say the speed that LA traffic goes when it moves. My normal speed on the way to work is 75, and I get passed a lot. And it’s not unusual to be in slow and go traffic that goes routinely 10 to 50-60 and back to 10 or creeps along at 0-10 for miles. Both of these situations use a lot of juice, unlike a study speed. Sure you aren’t using any when stopped, oh, except for the a/c which is absolutely necessary when it’s over 100 deg, like the 116 it was three weeks ago.
    Also you might have read that I said I sound like a perfect EV customer, with the exception that charging is a major fucking issue.
    Not everyone is able or willing to put up with the EV issues, even if they are far less than they used to be. Now a reasonable hybrid might be another story, and I’ve looked into them before I purchased my current car. There is a matter of affordability. And the fact that most of the hybrids I see in socal are running the gas motor almost continuously, which rather negates what the hell the electric motor and batteries are for. In the usage that I do my petrol powered guzzler gets about the same mileage. So I’m supposed to pay more for the same performance and mileage? I call bull and shit.

  435. 435.

    Bess

    @Jay:

    A glibartarian is somebody who’s read way too much Ann Rand, no economics, and gladly embraces 10 contrary ideas at the same time, before morning tea.

    Musk graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Physics, as well as a Bachelor of Arts in Economics from the Wharton School. I suspect he’s read some economics. I have no idea how much of a libertarian he is. He seems to hire a lot of very talented people so I doubt he thinks he knows it all. Although he has demonstrated an ability and willingness to learn a lot in a hurry.

    Do you have some evidence of Musk gladly embracing 10 contrary ideas at the same time? It’s possible but I’ve never read anything about it. Link appreciated.

  437. 437.

    Yutsano

    I can’t believe we’re going to TBogg over a Tesla evangelist.

    I’ll check the wreckage in the morning.

  438. 438.

    Anne Laurie

    @Bobby Thomson:

    For what you spend using an RV for occasional camping, you could stay in hotels – and since you’re in an imitation house anyway, why don’t you?

    Dead thread, but I know quite a few dog owners who love RVs because they can bring their companions along without worrying about hotel restrictions. Some of the couples are retirees who “commute” between a campground in New England or Michigan during the summer, and one in Florida or Arizona during the winter.

    Around here, at least, there’s plenty of places that will rent you an RV, if you don’t want to commit to ownership. Never actually tried it in real life, but the once or twice I looked at websites, the dealers all had info on the best local campsites — and the campsites had recommendations for RV dealerships, too.

  439. 439.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    I am going to go to bed before “Bess” determines my IP address and/or GPS positioning. That is the most terrifying shit I have seen online in some time.

    You don’t like the message so you attack the messenger.

    Has it ever occured to you that your opinion of Musk bears a close parallel to many people’s opinion of Hillary? That someone, for their personal reasons, might have planted a lot of bullshit in order to harm his, and her, reputation?

    EVs, renewable energy and the way we cut carbon emissions are something that I’ve spent a lot of time trying to learn about. I can understand that what I am posting may not sound right to some of you because you’ve been told that Elon runs a child sex ring in a pizza parlor. Oh, other person.

    I’m laying out what I know and believe to be factual. I’ll be glad to link to pretty much anything I’ve posted. There may be a couple of things which Elon talked about on a video that I won’t be able to locate.

    And I may not get to everything tonight but I’ll try to check back in tomorrow to answer what questions I can.

  440. 440.

    Bess

    @Yutsano:

    You don’t like metaphors?

    I’ve spent time with Tesla’s annual financial reports. If they average 5,000 Model 3s with a 10% gross profit margin and an average sale price of $50,000 they will earn more than the maximum they’ve ever lost.

    I can lay out those numbers if you like.

  441. 441.

    Amir Khalid

    @James E Powell:
    Vitamin M = money. I’d much prefer a cheaper and maintenance-free solid-state amp to an expensive, classic-sounding valve amp. I’m fine with only an approximation of classic tone if I can get ease of use plus a decent selection of preset amp voicings and onboard effects at a reasonable price.

  442. 442.

    Bess

    @efgoldman:

    Is Elon your cousin, or something? You seem to take this very personally.

    I take climate change extremely seriously. I recognize that if we don’t develop acceptable, affordable alternatives to fossil fuels then we have very little chance of avoiding extreme climate change.

    We have developed very affordable wind and solar generation. They are now the two least expensive (unsubsidized) new generation sources of electricity. We are lowering the cost of storage and between less expensive storage, overbuilding wind/solar, and load-shifting we can replace fossil fuels for electricity generation and lower the cost of electricity as well.

    One of the major things we need to do is to replace petroleum for transportation. Tesla is literally leading this effort. The most important thing that Tesla is doing is not making some fine EVs but creating economies of scale for battery manufacturing which is rapidly dropping battery prices and leading us to very affordable long range EVs.

    Once battery cells drop to or just under $100/kWh then it will be possible to manufacture EVs for the same cost or less than same-feature ICEVs. Put a lower purchase price together with lower operating costs and we solve the personal transportation carbon issue.

    We know how to electrify rail. We still need low carbon solutions for flight and ocean transport.

    I’m trying to share information with people who generally want to know facts. Obviously there are several people who have, unfortunately, bought someone’s baloney sandwich.

  443. 443.

    Anne Laurie

    @Yarrow:

    Many of their children and other friends and family have other types of vehicles and I’ve seen seniors struggle to get in and out of pickups, SUVs, crossovers and even one time a small Jaguar convertible. As baby boomers age I wonder if sedans will become more popular again.

    Bingo. I’m seeing more ‘crossovers’ that are built like station wagons, too. The Spousal Unit drove all the way out to Ohio to get exactly the Jetta station wagon he wanted, because he ‘needed’ a big back hatch to load supplies where he wouldn’t be trying to lift or stuff them into a well.

    And apart from the difficulties of climbing up into an SUV when one has bad joints, lots of AARP-eligible folks (like me) have vertigo issues, so we can’t get down safely without struggling to turn 180 degrees in the seat.

  447. 447.

    Bess

    @Amir Khalid:

    Elon was in communication with the head of the dive team prior to SpaceX building the pod. When he left for Thailand it was not clear that they would be able to pump out as much water as they did. The rainy season hit early, which was why the boys got trapped. It was only just before the rescue that there was a break in the rains that allowed pumping to get ahead of inflow.

    I was following this both in the English and Thai media.

    I have seen nothing that shows Musk showing up and insisting (?) that his pod be used. What I’ve heard is that he showed up and said here it is if you want to use it.

    If you’ve got information to the contrary, please share it. This is a charge I’ve heard more than once. Each time I’ve asked for a source and (Crickets).

  448. 448.

    Fair Economist

    @Anne Laurie: My mother, who is in her 80s, finds it easier to get in and out of an SUV than a sedan. Your center of gravity is higher in an SUV so you don’t have to raise and lower yourself as much.

  449. 449.

    Anne Laurie

    @Chetan Murthy:

    I remember reading about how he spent all that $$ on factory robots (anybody remember the plot of “Roger and Me”?) and they didn’t work; heck, he bought a factory automation consultancy to try to get it done.

    Even technology is turning out to be treacherous and ungrateful! No wonder poor Mr. Musk has been so… publicly unhappy, recently!

  450. 450.

    Bess

    @Yarrow:

    Elon is a problem solver. And has a very talented group of problem solvers around him.

    I imagine his brain started thinking about a solution as soon as the question was tweeted to him. I know that I started thinking about a solution as soon as I heard about the problem.

    My solution was a ‘soft’ version of the pod. Basically a very tough river bag with an attachment for an oxygen source. Mellow the kids out with a mild tranquilizer (which they did), close up the bag. hook it to the guideline, drag it out.

    Of course I didn’t have the resources of SpaceX or our local inflatable boat company to put my idea in play. Musk did. Want to kick him in the nuts for trying to help?

    How about how Tesla moved quickly into Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria and quickly got the children’s hospital up and running with solar panels and Tesla Powerwall? Kick him the nuts a second time for that?

    And then the large numbers of solar systems they’e set up in PR to get power to people who were cut off from the grid. Is he due a third kick?

    Come on people. This group is better than this. I lurk here for political insight because people here go for the truth and I learn from people who know more about politics and legal issues than I do.

    I don’t learn much about landscape design. The willow is in the wrong damned place.

  452. 452.

    Ruckus

    @Fair Economist:
    Over the last year I’ve found it much more difficult to get out of a vehicle that I have climb up out of or one that I have to climb down from. I won’t bore you with some of the reasons. It’s one reason I like my car now, getting in and out is easy, as long as I can open the door fully. A bit more difficult if I can’t.
    It all depends on the person and what is going on with them. As much as we are all the same, we are all just a bit different as well.

  453. 453.

    frosty

    @James E Powell: @Amir Khalid:
    Dead thread, but I’d guess tube amps are easier to maintain, at least the older ones. Point-to-point wiring, easy solder connections, no ICs, no circuit boards. I’ve never had an issue with tube failure but these days they’re easy to replace anyway. Agreed that Vitamin M might be a (big) issue.

  454. 454.

    Anne Laurie

    @Fair Economist:

    My mother, who is in her 80s, finds it easier to get in and out of an SUV than a sedan.

    Fair enough. They’re not comfortable for me, because I have a dysplastic right hip and an arthritic left knee, and I’m short enough that I can’t make the necessary compensations climbing into/out of any SUV I’ve tried. On the other hand, while I get dizzy trying to ‘jump’ down from an SUV, my center of gravity has always been down around my knees…

  455. 455.

    Ruckus

    @Anne Laurie:
    At least you can still say you have a center of gravity.
    I’ve seemingly displaced mine. I think I left it in a Holiday Inn a while ago and they threw it out.

  456. 456.

    Bess

    @Ruckus:

    I can not afford a Tesla, not at $80K or $30K.
    I can not charge any electric car where I live and there are very few charging stations near where I live.

    I have read and I do understand. I could pay that much for an EV but I can’t justify it. I simply don’t drive enough. I may purchase a $35k M3, I put down my $1k reservation. But I’m having trouble making a final decision. I simply don’t drive enough.

    Tesla has moved the cost of a well built long distance EV from $70+k to $50k with the feature heavy M3 and by the end of the year should be selling a $35k M3. Tesla expects to reach manufacturing cost parity this year. That means that they will have brought battery cell prices close to $100/kWh and that opens the door for sub $30k long range EVs. It’s a process.

    Just a few years back EV batteries were $1,000/kWh. We know that they are now down to at least $145/kWh because that is what GM is paying LG Chem for cells. Tesla is probably paying less for their cells but that information has not been made public.

    Within five years we should be able to purchase an EV with a decent, 200 miles or more, range in the mid-$25k range. And a few years later we should see them turn up in the used car market at used car prices.

    BTW, Tesla is close to introducing their battery powered pickup. They go into production with their battery powered semi- next year. It looks to be a real game changer.

    As for chargers, you live in CA do you not? Go to this page and scroll down to the North America Supercharger map.

    https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

    The red icons are Supercharger stations in operation. The gray icons are Supercharger stations that should be online in the next few months.

    Yes, many people do not have a place to plug in and charge where they park, but over 50% of all US drivers do. And some utilities, California utilities in particular, are spending millions of dollars helping to install charge outlets in workplace and apartment parking lots. If you own a home then having a 240 vac outlet (similar to a electric dryer outlet) should cost about $250.

  457. 457.

    Bess

    @Fair Economist:

    I’ve got a smaller sized SUV. The seat is about chair seat high off the ground, maybe a couple inches higher, and it has a generous door. I have zero issues getting in an out but I do with some other cars. And my jacked up pickup.

  459. 459.

    Amir Khalid

    @Bess:
    Yutsy’s right about you, you know.
    This Vox story paints Elon’s efforts to join in the rescue effort in a quite different light. The impression I get from this and other coverage is that Elon tried to crash the party, and got shown the door — as politely as possible under the circumstances. That his response was to insult the people leading the rescue effort, questioning their credentials and calling one locally-based volunteer a pedophile, reflects very badly on him.

  460. 460.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Fair Economist: Back in the Eighties, I remember Sears experimenting with electronic catalogs stored on laserdisc. They had one at the catalog-order counter in their Fair Oaks Mall store. At the time, it didn’t offer much advantage over a paper catalog, but they were forward-looking.

    I think they got burned by all their technologically premature experiments and decided to deemphasize the catalog sales at precisely the time when the online model was starting to become viable. It’s a tragic story, because, of course, in the early 20th century Sears was the equivalent of Amazon: the virtual retailer who could and would send you anything.

  461. 461.

    Just One More Canuck

    @Bess: probably dead thread, but what is your source for the sales figures for Q3? There’s an article in CleanTechnica that’s full of a lot of wishful thinking but I can’t find anything more definitive than that

  462. 462.

    BrianM

    @lahke: Echo the recommendation for the Honda Fit. We just gave our 10-year old Fit to our daughter and bought a 2018. The front passenger side seat is a little cramped for me (6′). Other than that, no complaints.

  463. 463.

    A Ghost To Most

    @StringOnAStick: Thank you; will do. I really like the CLC trailer kit G&T linked to, but I think it would be too low for my wife. We had planned to buy a Hiker trailer (local), but a replacement kitchen drain line kiboshed it.

  464. 464.

    laura

    @lamh36: You are the travelingest Grad Student!
    BTW, I haven’t been to Fiji, but I have Fijian Union Members and they are awesome and their coworker is planning a trip their and her coworkers are busy making arrangements for their families to host and celebrate her. I suspect you would enjoy yourself there.
    Let me know if I can get some recommendations to send your way.
    Also, grad school goes by at lightening speed.

  466. 466.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    you post on GOS under the name “rei”, don’t you? cause the “musk can do no wrong” is just as strong here.

  468. 468.

    Bess

    @Amir Khalid:

    Amir, you seem to be a very level headed guy. Please reread the article you linked and point out to me how Musk “tried to crash the party, and got shown the door”.

    What I read there is that someone asked Musk if he could help. Musk contacted the rescue team and designed an escape pod, took the pod to Thailand and said basically “here it is if you want to use it”.

    I read nothing about Musk insisting SpaceX’s pod be used or even given a test run. Remember, cave conditions were quite different from the time the pod design had started. Rains had let up and much of the tunnel had been pumped out. Needs had changed. It would no longer be necessary to move the kids 2 km underwater.

    Show me in the article, please, where Musk did anything inappropriate before leaving Thailand after he dropped off the pod. And reread the part that talks about Musk’s communication with Dick Staton, one of the co-leaders of the rescue team.

    Now, I’ve already stated that Elon was very wrong for calling the diver who insulted him a ‘pedo’. The best response would have been to say nothing. And Elon, IMO, would have been justified in calling the guy a less acquisitory name such as “jerk” or “asshole” which he clearly was.

  469. 469.

    Bess

    @Just One More Canuck:

    I reviewed the numbers and I made a mistake. Tesla is on route to beat sales for each of those three models individually, not combined.

    Sales figures for Q3 are, obviously, speculative. What we have so far is July sales for the three cars I listed. The numbers come from a site called Good Car Bad Car that reports US and Canadian auto sales numbers by month, brand and model.

    July sales:
    Honda Civic 26,311
    Toyota Corolla 24,589
    Toyota Camry 26,311

    To exceed 26,311 sales per month, 5,491 cars per week Tesla will need to take their production from about 5,000 per week higher. Tesla’s goal is to reach full factory output of 10,000 M3s per week by the end of the year. At 10,000 per week Tesla will be close to matching the sales of two of the three best selling sedans.

    But not all three. Sorry.

  470. 470.

    Bess

    @chopper:

    By GOS do you mean Daily Kos? I haven’t posted anything on that site since it went batshit crazy a few years back.

    And I’ve never used the name rei.

    I was an early member of REI when they had only two stores. That’s as close a connection to rei as I can make for you.

    And, sorry, I’ve never even heard of the site Slashdot.

    Now let me ask the two of you. How is someone who furnishes facts (as best they know them) and challenges what appear to be untruths an “evangelist”? If a Bernie bot shows up on this site making a lot of false claims and someone pushes back against them is the pushback evangelizing?

  471. 471.

    chopper

    Has it ever occured to you that your opinion of Musk bears a close parallel to many people’s opinion of Hillary?

    has it ever occurred to you that the same applies to you? you sound like the elon musk version of a hardcore PUMA.

  472. 472.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    Musk should not have called the guy a pedo but the guy clearly was an asshole.

    both sides, amirite? seriously, you’re rationalizing musk accusing a critic of pedophilia. FUCKING PEDOPHILIA.

    and you wonder why you’re being accused of ‘evangelism’. oy gottenyu.

  473. 473.

    Bess

    Chopper, who am I running down by posting information about Tesla? Have I said a single thing along the lines of “Tesla and no one else”?

    I’m a great supporter of EVs because we must quit using oil. That makes me a fan of those individuals and companies that are leading the way to quit oil. Tesla and Musk are far in the lead so they get the most praise. Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Nissan and Renault deserves a lot of praise as well.

    Nissan moved out early with a lower range EV and tried to get into the battery manufacturing business as a way to bring down battery prices. But they stalled out on batteries. And they failed to create a rapid charging system. But at least they produced their EVs at levels that met demand. That’s unlike GM that built a nice long range EV but produces them only as compliance cars (low volume).

    If you are concerned about getting off fossil fuels then you’ll find yourself in the position of recognizing that Musk and Tesla are doing far more than anyone else and are driving the transition.

    If we were discussing the fastest running humans and I talked about Usain Bolt would that make me some sort of track PUMA?

  474. 474.

    Bess

    @chopper:

    , you’re rationalizing musk accusing a critic of pedophilia. FUCKING PEDOPHILIA.

    Are you functionally illiterate?

    I have clearly stated that calling the jerk a pedo was wrong.

  475. 475.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    see, you’re doing it again. “yeah, yeah, it was wrong, but the other guy was a jerk”.

    where i come from, falsely accusing someone, especially someone helping save a bunch of kids’ lives in a difficult cave rescue event, of being a pedophile isn’t merely ‘wrong’. it makes you an unmitigated fucking asshole.

    i thought much much better of musk up until that happened, but after that bullshit he became human garbage. who fucking does that?

  476. 476.

    Bess

    @chopper: You sound like someone looking for an excuse to hate on Musk.

    He made a mistake. He admitted to his mistake. Musk does not have a history of making mistakes like this.

    Sometimes people make mistakes. The greater judge of character should be how they deal with the mistake they made. Do they own up to the mistake and attempt to offer amends or do they deny and lie?

  477. 477.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    yes, after deleting the tweets and hoping it would go away, a few days later, after dealing with a huge wave of public shit over it, he made an apology. where he spent half of it defending himself.

    some apology. i guess for a billionaire with a thin skin, that’s the closest you’re gonna get.

    you’re obviously the sort to just chalk that up to ‘people make mistakes’, or at least as long as it’s elon musk. i think making unfounded public accusations of pedophilia against your critics makes you a fucking asshole, even if you cough up a ham-handed apology when it becomes obvious the story won’t go away. we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  478. 478.

    Bess

    Do we agree that most people make a mistake now and then? And that people should be judged on how often they make mistakes? And on whether they attempt to rectify their mistakes?

    Pedo tweet was on Friday. Apology was on Sunday. A few days later?

    BTW, this appears to be Elon’s full apology.

    As this well-written article suggests, my words were spoken in anger after Mr. Unsworth said several untruths & suggested I engage in a sexual act with the mini-sub, which had been built as an act of kindness & according to specifications from the dive team leader.

    Nonetheless, his actions against me do not justify my actions against him, and for that I apologize to Mr. Unsworth and to the companies I represent as leader. The fault is mine and mine alone.

  479. 479.

    Amir Khalid

    @Bess:
    One, Vernon Unsworth wasn’t being a jerk. Having a low opinion of Elon Musk does not make one a jerk.
    Two, The sense I get from the communications between Elon and Dick Stanton is that Elon was interpreting polite but noncommittal responses from Stanton as official encouragement to proceed with his, Elon’s, rescue submersible plan. It seems unlikely that Stanton, a foreign volunteer, was a leader of the rescue op, when the provincial government was there and the Royal Thai Navy with its expertise on diving and rescue ops was there too. In the end the rescue op’s real bosses found Elon’s offering not practical for their task, and politely dismissed your hero. At which point he threw a public tantrum.

  482. 482.

    laura

    @Bess: hey, I don’t like Elon Musk and couldn’t care less about his self serving big footing of the rescue of the Thai boys and their coach.
    He’s shit for workers. Bad employer in every way you can see- unsafe working conditions, extremely high number of work place injuries. Undercounting injuries. Anti-Union.
    His cars are beautiful but come at the expense of workers trying to earn a living and not end up broken, unemployed and unemployable.
    So fuck Elon Musk. Fuck him to hell.

  483. 483.

    Bess

    @Amir Khalid:

    Here’s Unsworth interview video on CNN. Judge for yourself whether Unsworth was being a jerk.

    https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/cave-rescuer-slams-elon-musk%27s/10158544105061509/

    Remember, he was not part of the leadership team with whom Musk had been in contact with to determine the parameters of the cave. Shanton was the co-leader of the dive team which was in the cave and determining the route particulars.

    The Thai Navy was there but I don’t believe had any cave diving experience. Was it not one of their people (retired) who got himself in air trouble and died?

    Now – and I am extremely serious. Show me some evidence of Musk throwing a public tantrum when his pod was not used. Let’s get our facts on the table and not act like Republicans accusing Hillary of killing people at Benghazi.

    If you have tantrum proof I’ll take it onboard and acknowledge it going forward. If no one can produce that data then we all need to be better people and not repeat unsubstantiated rumors.

  484. 484.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: I don’t think I was really attacking the messenger. I am simply highly skeptical of the idea that really rich people are geniuses who can multi-task in a variety of areas and will end up saving us all. If Musk really wanted to do something about the environment that wasn’t lining his pockets, he would dedicate funds and research to mass transportation solutions. And hyperloop is not it. Some combo of more efficient metro solutions (EV bus, light rail, etc) as well as driverless EV cars for last mile(s) would contribute orders of magnitude to reducing fossil fuel cars on the road.

  485. 485.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess:

    Now – and I am extremely serious. Show me some evidence of Musk throwing a public tantrum when his pod was not used.

    I don’t understand this demand? His reaction is on record.

  487. 487.

    Bess

    @laura:

    I have searched the web and I cannot find proof that Tesla is or is not an unsafe place to work. What I find is opinions that the charges mainly come from the union that wants to organize Tesla’s workers. Do you have any proof for your claims or might you simply be repeating unsubstantiated claims?

    Let’s stick with facts, shall we? You bring yours. I can’t find any supporting either side of the issue.

    I do find this –

    ” a new PayScale survey gives us an interesting look into the employee demographic of some of the top tech employers. Elon Musk’s Tesla and SpaceX particularly standout in the survey for ranking at the bottom for their bellow average salaries and at the top for most stressful environments, but also and maybe more importantly, at the top for being the two most meaningful places to work out of the 18 tech firms listed in the survey.”

    But that’s comparing an auto manufacturing company to tech companies.

    Assembly line workers at Tesla average $18.21 and $19 at GM. But GM has a larger portion of workers who have been at the company longer, thus earning more per hour. The hourly for an assembler at GM tops out at $32 and at Tesla $55.55.

    I’m not seeing support for your wages claim.

    Sources: Glassdoor for GM and Tesla’s web page for Tesla.

  489. 489.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    I don’t think I was really attacking the messenger.

    How about “I am going to go to bed before “Bess” determines my IP address and/or GPS positioning. That is the most terrifying shit I have seen online in some time.” How did you mean that?

    I am simply highly skeptical of the idea that really rich people are geniuses who can multi-task in a variety of areas and will end up saving us all. If Musk really wanted to do something about the environment that wasn’t lining his pockets, he would dedicate funds and research to mass transportation solutions.

    I agree that we need more and better public transportation but the best public transportation will not take all cars off the road.

    Why attack someone who is being very successful in the effort to eliminate the use of fossil fuels because he isn’t working in a different area? There are lots of problems to solve.

    Criticize the people who have the resources to help with different problems and are doing nothing to help.

    And hyperloop is not it. Some combo of more efficient metro solutions (EV bus, light rail, etc) as well as driverless EV cars for last mile(s) would contribute orders of magnitude to reducing fossil fuel cars on the road.

    Imagine Los Angles. Imagine being in one of the outlying areas and needing to get to the airport. Drive or take a cab? Do that and you add more clog to the city streets. Now imagine you could take an elevator down 30 feet and travel underground, using electricity and not fuel, then pop up in the airport. Would that not be useful public transportation?

    Or imagine needing to go from LA to Houston. Spend a couple of days driving, fly using jet fuel, or take the Hyperloop powered by renewable electricity. Useful public transportation?

    BTW, Tesla is one of the companies developing self-driving cars. And they just made their software available to other companies for free in an attempt to speed the time to self-driving cars.

  490. 490.

    L85NJGT

    @Corner Stone:

    Tesla has something like 75% the market value of Ford and GM combined, with 1% of the production volume. Something smells in the Kingdom of Musk, and we know it’s not exhaust fumes.

  491. 491.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    People are accusing Musk of throwing a tantrum at the cave site. I’ve seen no evidence of that. I’m asking for some.

    Other people have accused Musk of being a showboat at the cave site. I’ve also seen no evidence of that. I’ve been asking for that as well.

    Musk’s ‘pedo’ tweet occured after he had returned from Thailand. The attack by Unsworth was made after Musk left Thailand. I’ve stated multiple times and will state again that he should not have called Unsworth a pedo.

  492. 492.

    Bess

    @L85NJGT:

    Tesla’s stock is speculative. People who pay as much as they do are assuming Tesla will grow into a very profitable company over the coming years.

    GM and Ford are mature companies with no signs of significant future growth. Their stock prices are based on things like price to earnings.

    Think about Microsoft and Amazon. At one point they were tiny, insignificant companies. But if you had the insight to see their potential you could have bought in cheap and made a fortune. A large number of people, including some very major financial organizations believe that Tesla has the potential to become huge. And they are speculating by paying a high price for the stock.

  493. 493.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: I think if you were to take a step back you might recognize that you’ve been a few levels beyond strenuous in your advocacy of Elon Musk.
    Musk is a carnival barker. His recent announcement about taking the company private was an attempt to distract from the news that Tesla isn’t meeting production goals, can’t commit to more, and are generally having a technology problem. If, as you indicate, his goal is a reduction in fossil fuel use then mass transpo is *the* solution to work on. Not from downtown to the airport but from large employment centers to suburbs/outer suburbs. I don’t include exurbs because we should focus on not building those resource intense spaces so far from employment/education/healthcare/etc.
    My contention is that Elon Musk wants what is best for Elon Musk. Even the damn SpaceX launch recently was a hokey self-promotion event. My bottom line is that if you want to make money, then try and make money. But don’t send propagandists out selling your gospel about a higher calling.

  494. 494.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    exactly. half the fucking apology is him defending himself, and then he apologizes to unsworth and his own companies in the same breath. i guess ‘i’m sorry tesla’s stock dropped cause i was an asshole’ is just as important as apologizing to the guy HE ACCUSED OF PEDOPHILIA.

    fucking worthless. thank god he caught so much shit over the accusation or he would never have said a thing, not that it was much.

  495. 495.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    see, you’re doing it again. you’re rationalizing the shit he said about unsworth by making it like he deserved it. as if there’s no real difference between ‘you should take your james bond mini-sub and stick it where the sun don’t shine’ and ‘oh yeah, well you rape children!’.

  496. 496.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    Corner – I wrote a detailed explanation in reply to your comment. The system may have eaten it. I’ll wait a little while to see if it gets spit out. If not I’ll rewrite.

    Short –

    Production problems seem to be fixed

    Musk had a fiduciary responsibility to announce privatization when he did.

    The Loop is Musk/Boring Company bootstrapping to the Hyperloop. The Look can be installed much faster and for a lot less money than, say, a light rail system. The Hyperloop potentially solves the airplane/jet fuel/CO2 problem.

  497. 497.

    Bess

    @chopper:

    1) Unsworth earned some sort of pushback. It probably would have been smart for Musk to say nothing.

    2) Musk should not have called him a pedo.

  498. 498.

    chopper

    @Bess:

    i hope you weren’t gritting your teeth too hard when you wrote that. i know offering up even that paltry criticism of the guy’s actions must be very difficult for you.

  499. 499.

    Bess

    Second comment eaten. Probably the link.

    Go to Electrek and scan down the page for Elon Musk Confirms… That will give you details on why the announcement of going private was made when it was. It wasn’t a “Look! a skunk!!”

  504. 504.

    Bess

    @chopper:

    No, I have no problem criticizing someone when I think they deserve it.

    But I also take umbrage when I see someone being, IMO, unfairly attacked.

  506. 506.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    As I recall that was the first trial of that rocket. They are not going to put millions of dollars of expensive satellites on a rocket being test fired.

    Instead of Elon’s Roadster they could have sent up a block of concrete. The Roadster cost little and earned a huge amount of advertising for both companies. Smart, IMO.

  507. 507.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess:

    The Look can be installed much faster and for a lot less money than, say, a light rail system. The Hyperloop potentially solves the airplane/jet fuel/CO2 problem.

    And I *can* marry Salma Hayek one day. Both my chance to do so and the construction of an underground hyperloop are about on par as possibly happening before I die.

  510. 510.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    Why would you believe that? Are you planning on dying in the next ten years?

    As I understand it the tunnel created for the Loop would be functional for a Hyperloop. The tunnel casing already provides more than what is required to allow a full vacuum. We’re already running maglev trains. We know how to build airlocks and elevators.

    The route from here to Hyperloop is

    1) Build some Loop tunnel in order to get an accurate price on a completed tunnel and get some experience with pods, stations, etc.

    2) Build a short Hyperloop system.

    If the Chicago Loop or another Loop project gets underway within three years I’d expect the first Hyperloop dig to start with five years. Money will not be an issue. It’s all about proof of concept. And some of the proof is being provided by other companies who are testing overground tube systems.

  511. 511.

    opiejeanne

    @Denali: Nothing, that’s just our CornerStone, We’re heading to the TBogg unit and he’s just boosting the number of posts.

    Oh, we’re there!

  512. 512.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: Listen. I don’t want you to take this as attacking the messenger. But this is crazy if you really believe this is going to happen.

  513. 513.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    The Loop? The Hyperloop?

    The Loop is pretty much just a job of doing it. Actual costs will have to be determined.

    Make a tunnel, we have thousands. Install a rail system. 1800s technology. Run cars/pods very fast on the rails or center guidance rail with battery electric motors. We have very fast EVs, the record speed is over 300 MPH.

    The Hyperloop is also just a financial issue once the Loop is proven (assuming it is).

    I’ve read every criticism of the Hyperloop that I can find. Here are the “issues” I remember.

    1) Tube thermal cycles causing expansion/contraction problems. Going underground eliminates that problem.

    2) Yahoo/terrorist/accident damaging the tube (sudden loss of vacuum). Going underground makes that very unlikely.

    3) Air pistoning, pushing air in front of the pod would build up air pressure and slow/stop the pod. That critique did not seem to understand that the Hyperloop would be a loop. Air, what little there is, would be traveling around the loop at about the same speed as the pods. This is not a tube closed at both ends.

    Any others you know of?

  514. 514.

    Bess

    Now, think about traveling in the Hyperloop vs. flying.

    You’d enter exit from “downtown” and not somewhere well out of town as you do with many airports.

    There would be no taxi/waiting for jetway issues. Pods would fill and leave, then arrive.

    There would be no weather/turbulence problems. No having to belt down due to rough weather. No getting diverted to another airport and having to find your way home from there.

    The cost per mile would be cheaper than flying according to Musk. That one is a wait and see.

  515. 515.

    Yarrow

    This thread is still going? Oh, for Recent Comments so I’d have known. Some of the best damn entertainment last night was here in crazy town and I see that today’s offerings haven’t changed. Congrats on the Tbogg!

  518. 518.

    Amir Khalid

    @Bess:
    I should have been clear: Elon’s public tantrum was on Twitter, not in meatspace at the rescue site. (But that’s all you get.) The rescue op’s leaders went out of their way to be polite to Elon, who was trying to butt in when they were already executing their plan, which by the way was successful. (It’s hard to link the death of the Thai SEAL to any flaw in that plan. Diving is inherently dangerous, diving in caves especially so, and absent any such link I must conclude that this good man’s luck just ran out on him.)

    What Elon said about them and about Unsworth, he said out of petulance, and was way out of line. Last anyone heard about Unsworth, he was thinking about suing Elon; if he decides it is worth the grief, Unsworth can win that lawsuit easily.

  520. 520.

    Bess

    @Amir Khalid:

    We are very aware of what Musk called Unsworth after Unsworth attacked Musk. Those are events well after Musk had left Thailand.

    You are now stating that Musk tried to “butt in” when the rescue was underway. Here’s my take on what happened.

    1. Someone unrelated to the rescue asked Musk if he could help.

    2. Musk contacted the rescue team and offered to help. He offered to build a rescue device and the rescue team supplied him with the dimensions and turns to the cave. If the rescue team did not want his help at that point they could have said ‘no thank you’ but they worked with Musk and SpaceX.

    3. Musk flew the SpaceX pod (and the Humboldt flexible pods) to Thailand and took them to the cave site.

    4. When he got there he was told that they wanted to bring the boys out a different way.

    5. Musk left the pods in the event they might be useful and came home.

    Please tell my how Musk “tried to butt in”. What do we know about Musk acting inappropriately at the cave site?

  523. 523.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess: A lot of cultures try to frame a negative answer in a way that doesn’t use the word no. Japanese, for example. Upper Midwesterners. Army NCOs talking to officers (“That’s a technique, sir, but not the preferred method.” means “If we do that, everyone will die and we will not accomplish our mission.”) Also how do you feel about Saabs?

  527. 527.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bess: Well, being a sea lion does come into play. And B-J commenter’s cat-like tendency to play with prey.

  529. 529.

    chopper

    seriously, how far up elon musk’s hyperloop do you have to be that you can’t just condemn the guy’s accusing a critic of being a child rapist without going “but the other guy deserved it”. it’s like getting trump to condemn white supremacists after charlottesville. “you…can’t…make me…do it…BLAME ON BOTH SIDES!!!”

    this shit boggles the fuckin’ mind, i tells ya.

  530. 530.

    Amir Khalid

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    B-J commenter’s cat-like tendency to play with prey.

    For example:
    @Bess:

    Those are events well after Musk had left Thailand.

    A distinction that does not make a difference. Meow.

  531. 531.

    Bess

    @chopper:

    how far up elon musk’s hyperloop do you have to be that you can’t just condemn the guy’s accusing a critic of being a child rapist without going “but the other guy deserved it”.

    How much of a low life do you have to be to lie?

  532. 532.

    Bess

    @Amir Khalid:

    No, it makes a difference because you charged Musk with a foul at the site.

    Either back it up or admit that you have no basis for your charge, please.

  534. 534.

    Bess

    @Amir Khalid:

    I’m sorry if I misunderstand you as I have with “everyone”. Come on, dude.

    Here’s what you have accused Musk of doing so far. All things at the site and well before Unsworth’s CNN interview.

    1) Showing up and proposing to disrupt the operation,

    ” know-it-all showing up and saying, “Here, use my gear.” Proposing to disrupt an ongoing rescue operation”

    2. Throwing a public tantrum upon not having his pod used.

    ” In the end the rescue op’s real bosses found Elon’s offering not practical for their task, and politely dismissed your hero. At which point he threw a public tantrum”

    3. Butting in

    “The rescue op’s leaders went out of their way to be polite to Elon, who was trying to butt in when they were already executing their plan”

    What part of my numbered summary is a misunderstanding?

  535. 535.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: Actually, that all sounds pretty reasonable as a response in a crisis situation with lives on the line. Where is the number for Musk calling the person a pedo?

  536. 536.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    All the numbered items in #534 are accusations of ‘at the site’ bad behavior. I’ve been hearing them ever since Musk dropped off the pod. But I have yet to see any evidence to support those charges.

  537. 537.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: I have to apologize because I am a little confused. I honestly am unsure of what Musk did or did not do onsite in Thailand. I am also not sure what any of this has to do with poor behavior that is documented.

  538. 538.

    Yarrow

    @Corner Stone: The important thing to remember is that even though he called one of the rescuers a pedo and doubled down over an hour later by saying he’d bet a signed dollar that it’s true, the actual time of him doing that was not while he was on site in Thailand. That’s what really matters.

  539. 539.

    Bess

    @Corner Stone:

    I started all this Musk talk up because I had seen him, IMO, smeared multiple times on this site but hadn’t pushed back. This seemed to be a good opportunity, the end of an open thread, to see if I could figure out what was going on.

    I’ve pushed hard on it for two reasons.

    The first it to find out if I’m wrong, if there is something that Musk did that I’ve missed.

    The second reason is I look to this site to be a source of accurate information. If any of us are wrong about stuff we generally get a pushback with facts.

    From the way I look at it either I needed some correcting, with facts, or other people who value the truth needed a dose.

  540. 540.

    Amir Khalid

    @Bess:
    Oh yeah, the CNN video. I’ve seen it before. Everything Unsworth says in it confirms my understanding of the situation at the rescue site. Purr.

  542. 542.

    Corner Stone

    @Bess: I always hated it when my K teacher started up with the colored stars. Yeah, I got more than anyone else but the cute girl in class was never all that impressed with them.

  543. 543.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    Well, I do know that it’s accurate information that Elon falsely accused the rescuer of being a pedo. Because of this I think that it’s accurate to say that Elon’s a slandering asshole who thinks he can get away with saying what he wants.

    Nothing wrong with accuracy.

  544. 544.

    Amir Khalid

    @Bess:
    Whatever you say, cousin Bess. Bats gold stars around for a while, then gets bored and falls asleep.

  548. 548.

    chopper

    @Yarrow:

    totally. like that time i was a kid and this other kid at school made fun of me, so i lit him on fire. yeah, maybe i shouldn’t have done it, but you have to consider the context, man.

  551. 551.

    J R in WV

    @Bess:

    If Musk accused someone of pedophilia without any evidence about that person, that’s a crime. It is not legal to accuse someone of a crime without a shred of evidence!

    Musk doesn’t like the colors used to paint safety margins around automatic equipment, margins necessary to protect workers from injury or death from the sudden unexpected movement of heavy equipment. So he declines to protect his workers from his robots, because he doesn’t like the required colors used to protect workers.

    He doesn’t encourage his workers to be union workers. That right there is all I need to know about the big boss man… he’s just tall, that’s about all.

    I’m a (retired) union worker, my wife was an elected officer of a nation-wide union local, and was attacked by newly appointed members of Reagan’s administration days after they took office. Bosses that work to keep unions out of their work place don’t care about worker safety, pensions, health or rights to organize.

    Fuck Elon Musk with a rusty farm implement if he can’t understand workers’ need to organize for their own protection… that is all.

    Yes, I am willing to provoke this Musk-sucker right here in front of everyone. Yes we need to stop using fossil fuels, if it isn’t too late already. No, Musk isn’t going to save us, not at all.

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