Dave Weigel from The Post summarizes the reforms agreed on earlier today at the Democratic National Committee meeting in Chicago:
CHICAGO — The Democratic National Committee voted Saturday to neutralize the votes of unpledged convention delegates, part of a package of hard-fought reforms designed to prevent a repeat of the bitter 2016 presidential primary as the party looks toward the 2020 election.
“We listened and we acted, and I’m proud that our party is doing everything we can to bring people in and make it easier to vote,” said DNC Chairman Tom Perez after the reforms were unanimously approved.
The new party rules undo decades-old reforms that empowered hundreds of party activists and elected officials, often referred to as “superdelegates,” whose presidential convention votes were not bound to the results of primaries or caucuses. They also affirm the decision of six states to move from caucuses, which have favored insurgent candidates, to primaries, which tend to have higher turnout.
So, under the terms of the compromise, superdelegates won’t vote unless a convention goes to a second ballot. That’s instead of reducing their number or eliminating superdelegates altogether as had been proposed. The man who brokered the compromise, Ken Martin, Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party chair, summed up the rationale:
“This is a way for us to heal the wounds of the 2016 election. Minnesota was a 62 percent Bernie state. People cared about this. We were dealing with a perception problem more than a reality problem, but that perception problem mattered. People believed so passionately that this issue cost their candidate the nomination, that we had to fix it.”
The reality-based community understands that Sanders wasn’t robbed (and in fact made a cynical play for the superdelegates himself after Clinton won the nomination fair and square). As I understand it, the superdelegate system is a fail-safe mechanism to prevent the rise of a crackpot like Trump on the Democratic side. But honestly, I’ve never found it all that comforting. If we ever used it for its intended purpose, it would blow up the party anyway, wouldn’t it?
So, IMO, the party didn’t give up much to mollify the crybabies who’ve been screeching about superdelegates for the past two years. But as a parent, I’m certain they won’t remain mollified for long — rewarding a mindless tantrum rarely works out in the long run. The good news is that six states are ditching caucuses in favor of primaries.
Other than that, open thread.
Fair Economist
I was defending superdelegates at the start of this process but flipped when I realized they’d been used to disrupt the party and drag out the nomination process in both of the past close contests. We’d have been decidedly better off in both 2008 and 2016 if the nomination had been settled after the primaries were done. So, good riddance!
6 states switching to primaries is great too. More participation, and a more democratic process.
Corner Stone
That is the best news that could have come out of this cluster.
Forsetti
The real problem with this policy is it gives credence to the Bernie wing that their claims of a rigged primary in 2016 were justified.
Yarrow
That’s excellent news and possibly the more important result.
I volunteered for a campaign today and it was invigorating and fun. Met some interesting people, including some awesome women from Moms Demand who had shown up as a group. Found out some of the very interesting work their group is going to change issues around guns. Inspiring.
debbie
I’ve never like superdelegates, and I’m glad for this change.
Suzanne
I like this outcome.
I also like more states ditching caucuses.
Uncle Cosmo
Now let’s see states closing their primaries like we do in MD. The Democratic Party nomination should be decided by voters who identify as Democrats. Period. I’m not a fan of same-day declarations of party affiliation in order to vote in a primary – too much opportunity for rodent fornication, make the deadline for changing affiliation at least a couple of weeks prior – but if that’s what it takes for the electorate to accept closed primaries, so be it.
japa21
The only reason it was bitter was because Wilmer couldn’t take defeat. He never was close to winning the primaries and winning enough delegates.
Major Major Major Major
2016 primary in a nutshell. Or the whole election, really.
japa21
@Uncle Cosmo: What about those states that do not even have party preference as part of their voter registration process? Hard to have a closed primary where no one can vote.
geg6
@Uncle Cosmo:
Totally agree.
Lapassionara
When I was young, I had the impression that both parties chose their nominees in some kind of “smoke-filled room.” I thought the present system was a reform that resulted after the 1968 Chicago convention disaster. I was not offended by the idea of people active in the party having some say in the selection process, but this compromise seems reasonable to me.
The Republican Party is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Russian Mafia. We need all hands on deck to take our democracy back.
Major Major Major Major
@japa21: Then don’t have a closed primary there.
oatler.
I hope they’re discussing protecting themselves from possible hostile hacking.
SoupCatcher
@Uncle Cosmo: Perez is on the other side of this issue. This is from the email he just sent.
dmsilev
The superdelegates were always irrelevant to determining the outcome of the primary. We saw that in 2008, when Hillary started with a massive lead of SD endorsements, and then as Obama built up his lead in pledged delegates, the supers one by one flipped over. So, basically the Sanders folks exerted a huge amount of energy screaming about something that was of cosmetic at best importance.
Meanwhile, states ditching caucuses in favor of primaries makes a real difference in terms of improving the democratic nature of the process. More voters, and an easier time voting.
James E Powell
The superdelegates were created to prevent another McGovern. This has been the obsession of the Democratic PTBs since ’72. They were also terrified when Jesse Jackson won some primaries. Same thing, somewhat less of threat from Howard Dean. The fear isn’t “The Left” as such, but rather another 72 or 88.
KSinMA
@geg6: Me too. And I would do away with same-day party switching.
rikyrah
How many states still have a caucus?
smintheus
I like this reform. There’s no need for super delegates except as a bulwark against a fraud or con-artist, and it’s highly unlikely that such a person would get far in the primaries much less get enough elected delegates to win outright.
@Fair Economist: Yes. The super delegates were a will o wisp that Clinton in 2008 and Sanders in 2016 thought would rescue their failed campaigns…if only they could turn up the right scandal or its equivalent to tarnish the candidate they were chasing.
I also suspected in both years that Clinton put too much faith in her ability to count on super delegates, and that perhaps it made her strategy too cautious and less pro-active than it should have been in the face of evidence that a substantial number of voters were resentful of the idea that the Party was preparing for a coronation rather than a meaningful contest.
James E Powell
@japa21:
Hard, maybe. But Kris Kobach is working on it.
Fair Economist
@japa21:
Mostly, but if there hadn’t been superdelegates even Wilmer would have had to shut up after the California primary.
Major Major Major Major
@SoupCatcher: I’m reasonably okay with same-day party-switching. I’m 100% okay with same-day registration, and this feels consistent. People do silly things: it’s easy to imagine somebody registering as an independent fifteen years ago, and not really realizing it since their state has always had open primaries; then bam, a rule change comes along, and they’re blindsided at the polling place. Or suppose they thought they weren’t even registered, and they show up to register, but they’re already on the rolls as an independent. (I don’t actually know how this last one would work.)
What I’m 1000% against is non-Democrats voting in the Democratic primary.
Chyron HR
@Fair Economist:
Why?
Major Major Major Major
@Chyron HR: Good point: math hasn’t stopped him before.
satby
@Corner Stone: Agreed! The caucuses are ridiculously outmoded and undemocratic. Glad to hear more states are moving away from them.
Though the Wilmer faction will probably whine about that.
Yutsano
Please tell me one of them was Washington. Non-binding primary with a binding caucus is the stupidest set-up ever.
SoupCatcher
@Major Major Major Major: Completely agree. Making it easier for new people to participate outweighs concerns about ratfucking.
Fair Economist
@Chyron HR: Because Hillary would have had an absolute majority of delegates by then. As it was Wilmer spent 2 months trying to convince the supers to flip (really, pretending to try because even he had to know it wouldn’t happen, but that still distracted many of his supporters.)
Martin
Yay! More primaries! And putting superdelegates on the 2nd ballot seems like a pretty good compromise, actually.
Redshift
BTW, states switching to primaries isn’t just coincidental; encouraging primaries was part of the changes from the DNC. (I don’t know anything about what the “encouragement” is, I just read the announcement from Perez.)
It will be morbidly interesting to see how the Wilmerites react to that. Their push for more caucuses was the most blatant sign that they were only interested in what would be good for Wilmer, not “the grassroots” as they always claimed.
B.B.A.
Ideally I’d have the DNC’s politburo appoint all candidates for office, with enemies of the party sent to the gulags.
But here in reality, the committee’s decision makes sense and I have no quarrel with it.
NotMax
What rankles is changing party structure at the behest of someone who is not a party member.
germy
@NotMax: Well sometimes he is.
dmsilev
@Yutsano:
Texas’s primary-and-caucus would like to challenge for that title.
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: I mean. These were all voted on by party members after a power struggle among party members.
Redshift
@Uncle Cosmo: Meh. I’m much more interested in dealing with actual problems than things that could potential problems that have never actually happened.
Virginia has had non-partisan registration my whole life. (You choose which primary ballot you want at the polling place.) There’s never been any evidence of successful cross-voting to come close to changing an outcome. (Probably the most talked about was Democrats voting to get Oliver North nominated for Senate.)
So, people not voting is a significant problem. Ratfvcking primaries is a potential problem. I’d much rather do all we can to make it easier to vote, not make it harder to solve a theoretical problem.
Chyron HR
@Fair Economist:
And this would have stopped Bernie from telling his worshipers to burn down the country because…?
Redshift
I never thought they would seriously cut the number of superdelegates, not because they’re some kind of DNC power structure, but because mucky-mucks love the ceremonial importance and being sought after by candidates and the press too much. So this seems like a good result – take away the appearance of power they never actually had, while leaving them with what they actually cared about so they don’t fight it.
Emma Anne
Actually, the only legitimate purpose of super delegates was to step in if it was too close to call after the primaries, and that purpose is maintained here. I like this result.
Major Major Major Major
@Redshift:
The fact that this perfectly mirrors the debate over voter ID makes me think I should be in favor of same-day party-affiliating.
Citizen_X
@Major Major Major Major:
If not humanity’s epitaph.
Major Major Major Major
@Citizen_X: there’s some Vonnegut book where he says humanity’s epitaph is WE COULD HAVE SAVED IT TOO, BUT WE WERE TOO DAMN CHEAP
(Or something. From memory)
Ohio Mom
In my little corner of the world, there have been instances when voters with no affection for the Democratic Party have gone to the polls on primary day and asked for the Democratic ballot (looking at you, all you William Smith for Congress voters).
Their goal of course is to vote for the candidate the Republican will have the easiest time defeating in the general. It’s an effort that probably isn’t necessary given the extent of Ohio’s gerrymandering but still.
I don’t pretend to know what mechanism could best prevent this but I’d sure like to see it put in place.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Humanity’s epitaph by rights ought to be “Yeah, we kept meaning to get around to that.”
;)
Corner Stone
Although Tom Perez has not lit my hair on fire in his DNC role, I think this outcome probably took some finesse and coalition building behind the scene. Yeah, that’s not Breaking News, but just IMO that the agreement doesn’t sell out to the Bernie Bros at the expense of making the D process more efficient.
germy
Ohio Mom
@Major Major Major Major: I remember Vonnegut comparing our dependence on fossil fuels to a junkie getting in deeper and deeper. We know the ending won’t be a good one but we are too addicted to stop ourselves.
Also, “Or something like that,” from a very vague memory.
Yarrow
@dmsilev:
Abandoned in 2015.
germy
Last February:
https://forward.com/fast-forward/394916/arson-suspected-at-home-tied-to-ivankas-former-diamond-business-partner/
Oh, Moshe!
J R in WV
Nothing will ever make Wilmer shut up, until he’s back home in St Petersburg. Happy Days.
JPL
In GA you declare when you vote in the primary. Although there are some who might crossover for nefarious reasons, I imagine that number is low.
@germy: I did notice that, and one wonders how close they are to Ivanka’s tax filings.
I don’t think Trump cares about Manafort’s lovely family. He’s afraid they are going after his tax fraud.
Ken
The states that switched from caucus to primary – does that mean the Republicans also have to switch? Or do the states run separate primaries for each party?
Major Major Major Major
@Ken: the mechanism of each primary is decided by the party in question. Edited for clarity
Yarrow
@JPL: The Mueller investigation is all up in the Traitor Tots’ finances and activities like treason. It is not going to go well for them. It’ll be a sad day for the kids when Trump tweets out that they were just coffee boys and girl.
germy
No wonder Weisselberg kept a low profile.
ericblair
Seems fine to me. Superdelegates, like the electoral college, are weapons that will never be used for their proper purpose because the politics doesn’t work. Besides, Saint Bernie is fighting the last war, not the next one, because nobody knows what the next one will be.
In general the risk to opening up the nomination process too much is ratfucking or entryism. Entryism is where a faction takes over the party by flooding the system. This happened in the UK with Corbyn supporters, but doesn’t really work in the US because the number of primary voters is far too large to be vulnerable to this. So more primaries and less caucuses is a definite win.
Jay
@Ohio Mom:
In Canada, the way the system works, is paid up members of the Party, in the Riding, nominate and elect the cantidate. Bottom up democracy.
The Provincial or National leadership has various means to ensure they get the cantidate they want. Top Down Influence.
Quite often there is conflict, and claims of vote buying anytime there is a flood of new memberships.
But you arn’t a Lib, Con, Dipper or Green and have no input into Cantidate selection unless you have paid your dues.
germy
Here’s a quote from last year:
Well, it’s settled then…
Fair Economist
@Ken: There are a bunch of different rules. In Idaho the Republicans created a Presidential primary for their own purposes in 2016 but the Democrats continued to use a caucus; now they will use the primary too. In Colorado a voter initiative will force both parties to use primaries (against their will) in 2020; in 2016 the Democrats used a caucus and the Republicans selected delegates at the convention. Nebraska, Minnesota, and Maine all had the Democrats elect to switch to a primary so I assume the Republicans have a choice. In Washington the Democrats are talking about switching to the primary, which the Republicans already use.
Baud
@Corner Stone: I agree with you. Good outcome in what could have been a disaster.
Does anyone know if Wilmer has endorsed this reuslt?
B.B.A.
My radical suggestion: hold all states’ primaries on one day, winner of the nationwide vote gets the nomination, no caucuses or delegates needed, the convention is a made-for-TV production.
trnc
One thing I’d like to see as a constitutional amendment, but would settle for as a DNC rule – all presidential nominees must have won an election and served a full term at the federal, state or municipal level. IE, no gadfly candidates. I know it’s unlikely that dems would nominate someone with zero gov’t experience, but I hear more talk than I care to about some.
Zinsky
I’m from Minnesota and I know Ken Martin. There isn’t a more honest, decent man. If he brokered this deal, I can guarantee it was done honestly and openly and with the best interests of the party in mind. We need to get rid of the Nancy Pelosi’s and Chuck Schumer’s and all the other sclerotic old-timers. They have gotten us nowhere but the Wilderness. F*ck them!
randy khan
Of course, the key point about these changes is that a lot of Bernie people are enthusiastic about them even though they wouldn’t have helped Bernie in the slightest. (And the change to more primaries and making it easier to participate in caucuses probably would have hurt him.)
Yarrow
@B.B.A.: The little states would revolt because all the attention would be on high population states.
Fair Economist
@B.B.A.: I like a staged primary process as it gives smaller players more of a chance and there’s more time for a thoughtful outcome (to be fair, that didn’t help with Trump). I admit the staging goes on far too long. I don’t like a system where all the early influential events are in conservative and/or rural states (Iowa, NH, SC, and Super Tuesday mostly in the South). Not sure how I feel about giving up the staged process to get one less biased to conservatives. I’d like a system in which some more liberal and/or urban small states (VT, DC, RI, Maryland) were added to the early states and then all the other states finished over the next month or two. But it’s not up to me and that’s unlikely given the attitudes of Iowa and NH, and the fact that in many states this is mixed up with nonpresidential primaries which they’d like to run later.
germy
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/403601-sanders-praises-decision-to-limit-role-of-superdelegates-after-2016-primary
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Next reform: requiring candidates to release 15 years of income taxes.
Baud
@Zinsky: Bernie should lead by example.
Brachiator
Yep. Yep, and Yep.
Otherwise, I don’t care what rules the party comes up with. Except maybe one that would bar the tiresome Uncle Bernie from trying to use the Democrats as his political launching pad.
@Zinsky: Who you got in mind to replace Pelosi and Schumer? Otherwise your rant is a waste of time.
OzarkHillbilly
Had to pop in and drop this off: trump doesn’t know how to color a US flag.
JPL
@Baud: That is an excellent idea!
MomSense
@OzarkHillbilly:
Pretty good Russian flag though.
Baud
I’m thrilled about the move away from caucuses. That was my number one priority.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: lol It also appears that he was looking at another child’s picture to figure out what the assignment was. Good job to his current wife though.
NotMax
@tmc
*cough* Eisenhower *cough*
Limiting the pool is self-evidently constricting.
Yarrow
@OzarkHillbilly: That photo is hilarious. Looks like he’s trying to copy off the girl sitting next to him but she’s coloring a butterfly so that’s not going to work. The boy is looking at him like, “Are you cheating? That’s not cool, dude.”
Zinsky
@Brachiator: Let’s replace Pelosi with Joacquin Castro in the House and Schumer with Chris Murphy from CT in the Senate. Fixed.
What would you do? Nothing?
NotMax
@Yarrow
“Who’s hogging the gold crayons?”
JPL
@NotMax: haha OT Is it still raining?
Uncle Cosmo
@SoupCatcher: I think Perez is wrong because of the danger of ratfuckery, but upon further review I can see the logic: If you intend to promote more citizen participation by allowing same-day registration, & the newly-registered get to choose which party to identify with (& thus which primary to vote in), then you kindasorta have to allow the already registered to change affiliation on Election Day as well, otherwise the fact that they’ve already registered becomes an obstacle to participation.
@japa21: Then we live with it. For the moment; I’d still like to see that changed & the primaries closed.
@B.B.A.: Disagree vehemently – that would allow big money & the thoroughly dishonest national media to effectively dictate the nominee. There’s something to be said for being vetted by small groups of voters face to face.
I do think we need to rotate the order in which the primaries occur. IA & NH have waaaay too much influence on the eventual nominee.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
People on Twitter were pointing out that he couldn’t even get that right — in that order, that’s closer to the flag of the Netherlands, not Russia’s.
JPL
@Yarrow: Over/Under on whether or not he blames one of the children. He was going to fix it. There is a picture of him holding the blue marker though, but that’s just fake news.
NotMax
@JPL
On and off. Much worse over east Maui than the central part of the island. Supposed to remain wet for as long as through this coming Wednesday. The main road and the back way to Hana both remain closed due to flooding.
Big Island got slammed, over 30 inches of rain and counting.
Major Major Major Major
@Zinsky: and what will these replacements accomplish or do differently?
Yutsano
@Zinsky:
You were doing so well…
Then you shit your own bed. Sigh. Yes we need the younger generations to start coming up but not at the sacrifice of the capable leaders that we already have. Also: put up names. Don’t just blindly accept Republican thinking here.
Gelfling 545
@Yarrow: It’s his reflexive posture in the schoolroom. Habits formed in youth and so forth.
raven
@NotMax: So the dry part?
Aleta
@germy: When the going gets tough, the lugs attack the Justice Department.
(From The Hill and ABC)
Duncan Hunter: “We’re excited about going to trial with this, frankly.” “— This is modern politics and modern media mixed in with law enforcement that has a political agenda. That’s the new Department of Justice.”—“This is the Democrats’ arm of law enforcement, that’s what’s happening right now.” — “It’s happening with [President] Trump, it’s happening with me.” — “Let them expose themselves for what they are: a politically motivated group of folks.”
(From WSJ yesterday and today)
Trump: “I put in an attorney general who never took control of the Justice Department” — “What kind of man is this?” Mr. Trump said. — Trump has said that he never would have nominated Mr. Sessions for the job had he known the attorney general would relinquish control of the Russia probe.
Lindsey Graham: “The president’s entitled to an attorney general he has faith in.… And I think there will come a time—sooner rather than later—where it will be time to have a new face and a fresh voice at the Department of Justice.” Last year, Mr. Graham said the president would unleash “holy hell” if he fired Mr. Sessions. Now, Mr. Graham says while Mr. Sessions shouldn’t be replaced before the midterms, he would “likely” be replaced after the elections.
Sen. Chuck Grassley (who had warned last year that he wouldn’t hold a confirmation for a new attorney general): told Bloomberg News that he would have time for a hearing now.
Giuliani (asking why more Democrats aren’t the targets of the Justice Department’s investigations): “What, do you just investigate Republicans? It’s ridiculous,” Mr. said.
Law-enforcement officials: say they have grown accustomed to Mr. Trump’s attacks and attempt to tune them out.
(From ABC today)
Trump renews attack on Attorney General Jeff Sessions: ‘real corruption goes untouched’
Luthe
@Zinsky: I agree Schumer needs to go, but as NANCY SMASH! has been one of the most effective Speakers/Minority Leaders in the last, oh, 30 years she should stay until she decides to hand the reins over to a successor who knows how to heard cats as well as she does.
NotMax
@raven
Ain’t nuthin’ dry. Just glanced out the window in that direction and looks like some serious downpouring underway at the crater.
opiejeanne
@Luthe: Thank you.
debit
@Zinsky:
Yeah, fuck Nancy Pelosi! What did she do except give us the Affordable Care Act and millions of dollars for our candidates.
JFC.
opiejeanne
@NotMax: Oh my goodness. Broken record, stay safe and dry.
opiejeanne
Strange autofill choice on my MacBook. Instead of my name, when I type the first letter of opiejeanne I get “Omar bought the Escape.” I have no idea where that came from.
Bruuuuce
@NotMax: Actually, I expect it to be WE WERE HERE, WHERE WERE YOU?
Mnemosyne
@Zinsky:
Fascinating how you can’t think of a single woman in either the House or the Senate who could be in a leadership position, but you’re thrilled to throw a woman out of her current leadership position for a younger, less experienced man. ?
Doug R
@Yutsano: That was one thing I liked to throw at Wilmers when they were screeching “let them vote”- how few voted in the Washington state caucus that Wilmer won vs the huge turnout in the non binding Washington state primary which Hillary won. Yet she followed the agreed upon rules.
sukabi
@Yarrow: I wonder what the kids NDAs look like…cuz you KNOW he’s made them sign them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Luthe: Why does Schumer need to go?
lamh36
Evening BJ.
Finally watched Avengers: Infinity War
Course it was good.
Even without having spoilers though, it was kinda predictable…not many surprises…esp if you had any inkling of the storyline from the comics, but still a good film. Above Age of Ulton, but not above the original Avengers film, IHMO…
You can see my LIVE tweets as I watched here:
https://twitter.com/psddluva4evah/status/1033427167554809858
NotMax
@opiejeanne
Finally, the response to “Kenneth, what’s the frequency?”
:)
(Oldsters will grok the reference. Memory jog: Dan Rather.)
lamh36
@lamh36: Guess it’s a movie night…just finished Infinity Wars, now time for Love Simon…let’s see if it’s a good as folks have told me
JPL
@Yutsano: I’m not sure if the Nancy ads will continue to work in GA, but they sure did against Ossoff. The ads are misogynistic imo, and I think folks are getting tired of them.
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax:
What if we learned about it from R.E.M.?
raven
@Major Major Major Major: They’re old too!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
More importantly, has Baud endorsed this result?
Mnemosyne
@Zinsky:
Not only that — you want to throw Pelosi out in favor of a guy who’s been in the House for 1/3rd as long as she’s been LEADING the Democrats in the House.
Nope, no sexism there. If a chick can do the job for over 15 years, it must be easy so easy that any random guy can step in and do it with no prior experience!
opiejeanne
@NotMax: So my computer is in cahoots with William Tager?
The funny thing is we did sell our Escape five years ago, but the buyer was named Jose, not Omar.
JPL
@NotMax: Hawaii just won the little league world series, so those youngsters are not thinking about the rain back home. I put on the last inning because they were playing a team from outside Atlanta. Lots of local news coverage.
opiejeanne
@Mnemosyne: I did mention that I like you, right?
Brachiator
@Zinsky:
I’m in no hurry. And I’m always suspicious when people are hot to oust Pelosi for no good reason. She’s an effective leader, so keeping her is not the same thing as doing nothing.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: I wonder why he is repeating R talking points
JPL
@Mnemosyne: I do think that there needs to be younger folks in power positions, i.e Castro. Can we throw out Steny?
Major Major Major Major
@raven: what if we didn’t get into R.E.M. until college
Help me out here man! I don’t wanna be old!
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: Nancy is great, but if you read my comment at 105, maybe zinsky is just tired of the ads. To be clear, I don’t want her replaced, because no one does it better.
lamh36
I have reached the age where I watch movies about high school or teenagers and feel like I actually commiserate with the parents…
O gawd
Millard Filmore
@germy:
Becalmed in the eye of a hurricane.
schrodingers_cat
@JPL: He can use Adblock plus and NoScript to get rid of the ads. That’s not a good enough reason to get rid of her.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodingers_cat: …the anti-pelosi ads republicans run in house elections on tv and stuff, I imagine.
Emma
@Zinsky: What are these people’s organizational skills? Can they herd cats? Do they know where the bodies are buried and how to rattle the bones? Because Pelosi can and does regularly.
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t know about him, but I use antenna and she was all over the local channels I watch. The mailers were worse, but they could be torn in pieces. As I said, I don’t think the attacks are working as much, because they are also against a female black running for governor. They really look sexist.
debit
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah. Smells like ratfuckery to me. Not really seeing responses that convey the power of conviction.
NotMax
OT.
Okay, cat people, step up.
Arecibo Observatory’s Space Cats Need Your Help!
schrodingers_cat
@JPL: He can turn the TV to mute then.
evodevo
@Yarrow: Yes…the boy is definitely NOT happy with whatever POTUS is doing there lol – that stance is a typical small child “Hey! He isn’t doing that right – am I supposed to shut up or say something?”
Jeffro
Ok, so in theory this is an Open Thread, so here it goes…Megan McCardle truly, desperately needs to not be on the WaPo Op-Ed page.
Case in point: “Imagine a World Without Mandatory College Diplomas”
Notice anything interesting there in the title of the piece? (You’ll see it a few times in the op-ed as well – it’s not just some editor’s construction). But it’s TRUE, friends and neighbors: the heavy, nay oppressive, hand of government has created a situation where college degrees are not only mandatory, but they enrich the Librul Power Base in many, many insidious ways…
Take it away, you ditz:
Yes…because without ‘Glassdoor’, no one would have ever been able to read the articles that have come out in the past give years about companies that don’t require degrees…breakthrough!
Also…why is the middle class slipping behind, Megs? The only reason for that is…some sinister cabal of higher ed folks raising the bar every other day, amirite?
Anyway…
Caplan is a Koch-bought GMU Economics Department douche, so you can guess just about how altruistic his intentions are in bashing higher ed…oh, did I mention he’s “Dr.” Bryan Caplan??
She sounds a little bitter, don’t you think? “Repositories of enormous left-wing cultural and political power”?!? Say what now? Why it’s almost like at some point she was told she was a bad writer and worse intellectual and told that she’d best seek refuge on the wingnut welfare circuit.
And yet, the dumb, it continues:
Probably a lot like the Women’s March in DC the day after the inauguration, Megs.
I’m guessing it would involve taking a knee to protest police violence against unarmed African Americans…which of course you, Megs, would like about and call “a protest of the national anthem”.
I think this is called a ‘tell’, eh? I guess those leftie academics would quit working 60+ hours a week in most cases, take a job at the Post writing moronic op-eds for 10-15 hours/week, and leave lesser writing talents asking for spare change at Metro stops. MORE BROADLY, left-wing activism doesn’t seem to have an age limit, MEGS. It also doesn’t have a serious Astroturf component, unlike say your Koch paymasters’ BS ‘tea party’ act-outs.
And then, frankly, she fucks it all up even worse by sounding like a low-rent, high-on-her-own-supply David Brooks (I know, right? I didn’t mean to go there BUT SHE STARTED IT)
Seriously! That’s the end of her piece! I don’t know which offense is worse: the quality of her writing, her BS ‘concern’ for her fellow Americans trapped in a degree-seeking world, her lame-ass slams against higher ed, or the fact that she actually gets op-ed space in one of America’s most prominent papers.
Ok actually the last part is the worst. I’m writing her editor (yet again!) to ask that she be removed from the Post and sent back to the GMU Economics Department’s quarterly newsletter, where she belongs…
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@schrodingers_cat: “Kill your television!”
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: We are going to have to disagree because those ads can have on some democrats. That’s all I’m saying. Of course, they will attack whoever is in that position.
Abrams owed back taxes when she was paying for her father’s doctors bills, and they are all over tv with that. Of course, they are not mentioning why she was in arrears. The intention is to sour the field, before she can chew them up. I do hope the DNC comes up with an ad mentioning what would you do suckers.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major:
The alternative kinda sucks.
JPL
@JPL: edit.. whoops can affect some democrats.
NotMax
@Jeffro
Major Major Major Major
@?BillinGlendaleCA: immortal robot?
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
As often as he’s humped the flag, you’d think he would remember the color scheme.
debbie
@Yutsano:
Seconded!
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
(mumbles) “Oil can!”
;)
frosty
@lamh36:
So did I. It will be interesting to see where they go from here. At any rate, “Wakanda Forever!”
frosty
@Major Major Major Major: There, there, kid. Compared to me, Raven, and oh, 80% of the commenters, you’re not old.
But you’ll be gettin’ there!
frosty
@Jeffro:
Right. Imagine a world with engineers, physicists, chemists, biologists, social workers, doctors, lawyers, etc. without “mandatory” college degrees.
OTOH, imagine a world where cops were required to have a Criminal Justice degree.
schrodingers_cat
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: We have the option of not telling us what our enemies want us to do. Or we can buy into the conventional wisdom and cut off our nose to spite our face.
frosty
@frosty: ETA: yes, I know Jeffro was quoting McWhoever. Not meant to be a rebuttal to him.
schrodingers_cat
@schrodingers_cat: * of not doing
Gelfling 545
@Jeffro: Bottom line: like Trump, she loves uneducated people. The more ignorant they can be kept, the more likely they are to vote Republican. She’s certsinly no credit to her former institution of higher learning.
frosty
@schrodingers_cat: Isn’t the new edit function just awesome? Doubles the number of comments!
Schlemazel
Because now people who are not invested in the Democratic Party, have no interest in helping the Democratic Party and no loyalty to the Democratic Party can now decide who the DEmocratic Party’s candidate it.
Meanwhile the Co-chair of the fucking Democratic Party did not campaign to be the Attorney General but decided in the last hour of the last day to file for the job & run against the endorsed candidate in the primary. so lets just keep fucking ourseleves over because it looks good to the ignorant.
JPL
@debbie: Yup. Especially since his current wife understood the assignment.
JPL
@Schlemazel: You feeling better now that you got that out. I always wanted to go to a caucus because it just sounded like fun. Although I lived in five states, none were states where they held a caucus.
Jeffro
@frosty: Didn’t take it as directed at me, no worries! They (air quote “libertarians”) never stop to think anything through past the first anti-government, all-hail-the-free-market (BLESSED BE HER NAME), thought that comes into their heads.
Megan, why do we have government inspectors for food and drugs?
Megan, why do we have an FAA?
Megan, what percentage of American seniors were dirt poor before Social Security went into effect?
Fucking Reagan babies/my fellow Gen Xers, they drive me NUTS…
Schlemazel
@Fair Economist:
Assuming facts not in evidence.
The SD had no impact on the nomination again in 18, then never have had any influence at all ever. Bernie just kept fucking that chicken & morons believed him
sukabi
@Jeffro: kinda sounds like she’s mad because she’s been told by numerous people that she needs to go back to school and take remedial reading, writing and arithmetic…
Redshift
@Jeffro: Is McArgleBargle kinda sorta hinting there that it’s a Bad Thing that conservatives are beholden to billionaire-controlled “think” tanks, whole being too cowardly to openly but the hand that feeds her, or an I reading too much into it?
Jeffro
@Gelfling 545: I know, right? It’s like “Megan, apparently the Blessed Free Market is rewarding those who seek/obtain higher education…are you committing blasphemy against the Blessed Free Market???!?”
So people forego degrees and try to elbow their way into the Blessed Free Market (which apparently has 3 companies who don’t require degrees anymore – whoa)…and then they’re just like everyone else, a huge mass of folks trying to get jobs that pay well but without credentials (however imperfect that is).
I noticed she said nothing about companies taking these non-degree folks under their wing and lovingly training them at their (the companies’) expense in whatever field of expertise they need…oh no, can’t have big business spending money on something like that! But yeah, skip getting a degree, workers of America – we’ll randomly pluck some of you for a bit of training or perhaps none and pay you accordingly.
Just another scam to keep people’s wages down.
Schlemazel
@JPL: \
How can I feel better when the party is rolling over and exposing its nomination process to the disinterested and the rat fuckers? Then, to top it off the co-chair of the party feels no need to stand by the nomination process?
Jeffro
@sukabi: She definitely, repeatedly, has been told that she needed to spend less time reading Atlas Shrugged and more time learning how to construct a basic argument and/or 5-paragraph essay. That bitter undercurrent of being told she doesn’t cut it intellectually runs through a lot of her pieces, not just that one.
J R in WV
@Zinsky:
Nancy Pelosi managed to pass the Affordable Care Act while President Obama was in office – without her you wouldn’t have the many rules that protect everyone’s rights to health insurance, not least the requirement that at least 80% of insurance company income be spent on medical care with profits limited to 20% ~!!!~
So screw you – what have you done for the nation lately? Voted for Russian tool Sanders? No doubt!
Gelfling 545
@J R in WV: ?
Corner Stone
@Schlemazel: Well over half the people eligible to vote don’t bother. The idea that somehow people who show up to vote in a primary as opposed to standing around for 6 hours in a caucus means there is a de facto fucking going on seems a little iffy to me.
JPL
@Schlemazel: Look at Pete Souza’s instagram. At least that helps me. He has a picture of Obama flipping and the blue wave.
Redshift
@Jeffro: Yeah, definitely one of the most annoying features of libertarianism is the insistence that only government action can make you “unfree”; if a private citizen or corporation accumulates power by means fair or foul and uses it to oppress you, that’s always peachy.
(Actually, they don’t really even admit that; if you can’t accumulate enough power yourself to avoid that, it’s your own damn fault, and obviously would never happen to them.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Schlemazel:
How is having six state switching to primaries doing that?
Gelfling 545
I know some folks here don’t care to read Kos but the following is as good a summary of what’s up with the Chris Collins debacle here. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/8/23/1790475/-Small-Town-Stands-up-Against-Corrupt-GOP-Political-Machine?detail=facebook?detail=emaildkcs
Jeffro
@Redshift: I actually took it as her saying, “conservatives were better off when the Establishment ran things while using the Fundies as ground troops/their piggybank/votes and NOW I JUST DON’T GET IT why is Trumpov doing blasphemous tariffs and making me have to be okay with that?”
Ok, that’s a lot to read into it. But it’s clearly a cry from help from someone whose views never made sense in the first place, that they now also don’t make sense even within the GOP.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: states, that is.
dmsilev
@Schlemazel: Could you be a bit more explicit about what you’re complaining about? I mean, I think you’re upset about Keith Ellison running for Minnesota AG, but as far as I’m aware (and a very brief search of news stories confirms this) he didn’t “feels no need to stand by the nomination process”, but instead ran in and won a primary election. It’s not a race I’ve followed at all so it’s certainly possible I’ve missed something, but right now I’m not seeing the outrage.
Schlemazel
@Corner Stone:
Dump won the early primaries while other candidates won the caucuses. Primaries can reward the demagog like hair furor. Since we have an open primary system here in MN I have witnessed rat fucking at its finest. The GOP has only one candidate so Republicans jump over & vote for the worst possible Dem.
There are a lot of problems with caucuses but none of them are fixed with a primary.
Redshift
@Jeffro: A reasonable reading, though with a second look, I suspect the basis of the actual “argument” is “I saw this headline about libruls being more unhappy with someone than with the religious right, so I can use that to tell them they’re wrong to want the religious right out of power, hurr, hurr!”
Sigh.
Anotherlurker
@schrodingers_cat: A bot trying to start a fight?
Baud
@Schlemazel:
1. The problem isn’t primaries but open primaries.
2. On our side in 2016, the more demagogic candidate did better in caucuses.
Redshift
@Schlemazel:
Do you have actual cases where there’s good evidence it affected the outcome? Because I’m not aware of any, and while it’s annoying to have wingnuts trumpeting that they’re going to do it, if they can’t marshal enough votes, it’s not a problem worth addressing by making it harder for our actual supporters to vote.
Jeffro
@Baud: Seconded, thirded, eighty-eighth-ed on NO open primaries
Citizen Alan
@Zinsky:
Die in a fire, please.
Schlemazel
@dmsilev:
The party has a process that encourages those interested in running within the party first so that they can make their case. That should (and almost always does) produce the best qualified candidate for the job. As co-chair Kieth should support that process. Instead he filed for Congress as expected then, at the last minute, filed for a job he never expressed interest in & has never demonstrated what he wants to do with the job. He ran against the person who had competed & done all those things (not my first choice BTW). So now we have an unvetted candidate for 5CD (a safe seat but no clue how she will work as a COngress member) and a guy who has yet to explain why he wants to be AG (that I supported as a Congressman)
So lets just do away with the DFL all together & have a free for all in the primary & good luck to everyone. We have had the GOP screw with the DFL primaries before it is great news for them
Schlemazel
@Redshift:
There have been cases in MN. One thing that has stopped them for greater success the last 20 years has been the deep divide they have had here. Our primary is later and given the top-down way the GOP operates I expect they will often have a settled winner by the time we get to vote. You will see Republicans gladly helping the Dems when that is the case
Redshift
On the leadership question, I am entirely sympathetic to the view that Dems need to make our leadership better reflect the diversity of the party (which in turn reflects the diversity of the country, unlike the GOP.) That is where the argument that experience and demonstrated effectiveness should trump other considerations falls down, because it very easily becomes a “wait your turn” argument against people who haven’t had their “turn” because they were excluded for s long time.
However, that consideration still doesn’t make for a good argument against Pelosi, because:
a. women are one of those groups
b. using it to argue for replacing the to leader is like third parties that start by running candidates for president
c. it’s a defensive crouch against Republican attacks
Just wanted to get it out there that there’s a legitimate issue with how people get to be in the leadership, but it’s not one that’s addressed by “Pelosi must go!”
Citizen Alan
@Schlemazel:
Personally, I’ve been opposed to open primaries ever since 2015, when the highly respected female lawyer who was polling well against the incumbent Repuke Governor of Mississippi (who was running unopposed) unexpectedly lost the open primary to a semi-employed truck driver who spent $250 to get his name on the ballot as a joke and who never spent another penny on his “campaign.” You will NEVER persuade me that that outcome wasn’t the result of ratfucking by Repukes who felt free to cross over into the Dem primary because there were no important races on the GOP side.
JerryRich
@JPL: Hawaii won the US championship with their 3-0 victory over Georgia. They must play South Korea, a 2-1 winner over Japan, for the LLWS championship.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jeffro: eighty-ninth-ed to NO open primaries(even semi-open like in CA).
Citizen Alan
@Redshift:
See my prior comment about the 2015 MS governor’s race. As an added bonus, by eliminating the viable Dem candidate, the Repukes also managed to depress turnout in the general election with the end result that the state referendum to improve teacher pay and resources narrowly lost.
Platonailedit
bs is running again? shit.
Schlemazel
@Citizen Alan:
Dayton did surprisingly well in Republican precincts in 08. He was a weak Senator with several flakey episodes. It was assumed he would be a good candidate to run against. The GOP underestimated what was going to happen to them in 08 and Dayton has turned out to be reasonably decent as Gov.
20 might not be a true test as I expect there to be RIvals to the sitting POTUS. But if Dump sews it up early then all bets are off & I expect some “unexplainable” results in later primaries. Maybe not enough to tip the convention but maybe or maybe just enough to cause chaos.
Brachiator
@Jeffro:
Does Caplan have a college diploma?
Otherwise, what a load of crap. But I guess it keeps Trump supporters happy and stupid.
Ken
@Schlemazel:
Well, there’s their problem right there – confusing acronym. They need to expand it for clarity. Let’s see, they’re the Social Democrats – meh, needs more. How about the Social Democratic Alliance? Then they can be the SoDemAll party.
(Stolen with absolutely no apologies from Whoops! Apocalypse.)
jl
@Brachiator: Prof Bryan Caplan has a college degree. He is a die hard extreme libertarian. From what I have read of him, there can be leaps of faith and some underpants gnome logic in his arguments. Not to be confused with Andrew Caplin of NYU who is a very good and thoughtful economist.
jl
@Redshift: I’m not a big fan of Pelosi anymore, and I think she is rapidly becoming part of an old guard that finds it difficult to adapt to new electoral landscape, and dealing with that is a big part, but not the whole part, of her job. But the idea of removing her now because of GOP smear campaigns and because of ‘helpful’ advice from GOP operatives and pundits is just insane. And who would replace her that would be any better, or who would not undergo the same kind of smear campaign? No one.
I think (please correct me if I;m wrong) most of her challengers for leadership have been goofus ConservaDems and 90s-style super corporate Dem traingulators who would present an even worse face to the public.
The dump Pelosi crowd is either malicious for foolish. She’s the leader, and will be until the new Congress. If someone who would be better decides to challenge her, then make a decision at the appropriate time.
Miss Bianca
@dmsilev: We now have a caucus and primary system in Colorado, too, and it”s open primaries, thank you, butthurt “indepedents”!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: Pelosi’s job is to herd cats, she does it better than any Speaker in my lifetime(and that includes Sam Rayburn).
JPL
@JerryRich: Peachtree City plays Japan in the morning. I didn’t mean to indicate that they won the whole thing. whoops
J R in WV
@Gelfling 545:
Thanks. We try!
Mnemosyne
@JPL:
I’m totally on board with getting rid of Steny. I have no problem with people saying that we need to get some younger legislators into the lower ranks of the leadership positions so they can learn the ropes and be ready to take over when older Democrats retire. I only have a problem with people who decide that those younger people (always men, interestingly) should start off at the top, because being House Minority Leader or Speaker of the House is so easy that any idiot can do it with no training or experience whatsoever.
Redshift
@Citizen Alan: Thanks for the solid example. I’m not actually against closed primaries (especially since Virginia’s open primaries are a relic of Jim Crow), I was just skeptical of the evidence. I still think approaches to dealing with the problem need to be carefully designed not to depress turnout in general.
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Exactly this.
@jl:
Listen, I rail here on old geezers attempting to get into leadership positions. But Nancy Pelosi has been here a while, earned her chops and is one of the better house leaders in my lifetime. She’s not trying to become a leader by election, she is one by being one, and a very sharp one, no matter her age.
I’ve met a few actual leaders in life. THREE. People you would follow, not because of their position or the uniform but because they were/are leaders. I know of a couple others. President Obama, Nancy Pelosi. There are good people and then there are real leaders. These people are the real deal and you don’t see the real deal very often. I understand this guy in TX, Beto, seems like the real deal.
In my life that’s 5, with one possible coming up and with a possible seventh no longer with us, Robert Kennedy seemed to me to be one as well. Seven people in my life, 3 I knew personally and 4 politicians. You don’t throw away these people. And one thing that makes them real leaders is knowing when to step aside.
Ian R
@frosty: It doesn’t matter what degree they have. If they haven’t passed the Bar or PE exam, they aren’t lawyers or engineers, respectively.
J R in WV
@Schlemazel:
So what you’re saying is that democracy doesn’t work? Elections are a failure? Right?
We disagree. We believe in democracy here. Elections with the good guy winning…
J R in WV
@Ian R:
So you’re saying that someone can study on their own, then take the exam, and be a PE or a lawyer? Don’t think that’s how it works, squirrel~!~
I think you need a Bachelor’s degree, then a Law degree before you get to sit for the Bar exam. PE test may be a little different, but I bet you need a BS in some field of engineering to even sit for the exam.
Another Scott
@germy: rofl.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
BethanyAnne
Has anyone found out which six states switched to primaries? No one seem to be saying.
Ian R
@J R in WV: Funny you should mention that, as four states (California, Virginia, Vermont, and Washington) do allow you to take the bar without law school. Once you have done so, reciprocity agreements let you take it in the rest.
Procopius
@Lapassionara:
What, you think Sheldon Adelsen has gone away? The Koch Brothers?