The Florida primaries are tomorrow. I’m hoping it’s not too traumatic to revisit the scene of the crime — Grand Theft, Democracy. I’m still awaiting the opinion of a friend who works in the court system on the nonpartisan judicial races, but other than considering her input, I’m all set.
To my intense annoyance, every single one of the school board candidates in one of the two districts in which I can vote are Republicans. It’s a nonpartisan race, but they’re all registered Republicans, which means they’re cool with being in the Party of Trump. They are varying degrees of awful, so I’ve selected the least offensive one. Is that the best strategy, or should I write in Badger McMurtry?
What’s going on politically at the local level in your neck of the woods? How do you inform yourself before you vote? Do newspaper endorsements carry any weight? Do you assess candidates on the issues separately by taking a look at their websites / Facebook pages, or do you rely on compendiums like the League of Women Voters guides? Can you share any good sites for candidate info?
I do all of the above, but like y’all, I’m a politics junkie or I wouldn’t hang out in a joint like this. I suspect a lot of our fellow citizens go with “eeny-meenie-miney-moe” in the voting booth in nonpartisan races or under-vote.
Open thread!
schrodingers_cat
In MA, the primaries are often more important than the general election because Ds run unopposed for many slots. The local Ds are skewed heavily in favor of BS so I am not sure how much faith to put in their recommendations, either. So I was going to ask the same question BC posed above. Our primaries are next week.
The Moar You Know
The Republicans won’t moderate their own excesses, so if there’s no Dems to vote for (this is not infrequent in my part of the world) ALWAYS vote for the most moderate Republican.
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: That’s my rationale. I can’t recall a recent partisan race without a Democrat running here locally, but in the nonpartisan races, occasionally it’s all registered Republicans. We are significantly outnumbered in my area.
Mr. Prosser
The easiest way to inform myself is if there is an R after the name it gets no vote. If it’s all R then I have to work at it, like you.
SiubhanDuinne
Is there a press club or civic group in the Tampa Bay Area that hosts and moderates candidate debates? The Atlanta Press Club does this for lots of races throughout Georgia, and the debates are generally available on the APC website to watch at your own leisure.
Changing topics, I linked this on an earlier thread, but it got lost there, it’s more appropriate here, and it’s — as always — worth watching. Randy Rainbow delivers again!
“If you ever got impeached“
kindness
I don’t know Betty. Much of America voted for Boaty McBoatface in the 2016 elections and look what that got us.
piratedan
we have our primaries in AZ as well, we get to see who will go on to take on Flake and hopefully retake McSally’s congressional seat.
DavidC
For local races I usually know the candidates, or learn about them from reliable sources. This is also a region (Frederick County, MD) where candidates still go door-to-door or hold meet-and-greet sessions.
donnah
I rely on our Dayton League of Women Voters for info about candidates, election info, and voting locations. I think they do a great job and I trust their information.
http://www.lwvdayton.org
And of course I read countless blogs and evaluate their opinions.
Wapiti
In Seattle, The Stranger puts out a voters guide before the election, both in their print copy and online. It’s generally good, but sometimes requires a sanity check. I also use the state/county-provided guides. Too many of our races are non-partisan, so I need to sift through endorsements (cops love them? no.) and candidate statements (dog whistles and family values? no.) to separate the chaff.
Kay
Okay in my continuing UNNOFICIAL role of advising the Democratic Party:
Make it simple. Trump’s low quality hires are robbing low income and working class teenagers – teenagers who are only trying to better themselves by going to college. That’s all you have to say.
Nancy Pelosi was actually way ahead of the pack on student loans. She was talking about it in 2004 and 2006 when no one else was. It was part of the Dems 2006 midterm platform.
Major Major Major Major
We’re banning straws and workplace cafeterias instead of addressing housing or homelessness.
piratedan
@piratedan: i meant who gets to run for Flake’s seat… sheesh, its Monday
Wyatt Derp
@schrodingers_cat: I am in the same boat. I live in MA 3 where Nikki Tsongas is retiring and there must be 6 candidates running for the Dem primary. All claim to be progressives who will fight Trump so not much difference there.
Speaking for myself I always like candidates who get out and ask me for my vote. I voted for Maura Healy for AG because she came to my town dump on Saturday and asked me for my vote. I have had two young kids in the last week come to my door and ask me to vote for Dan Koh and I think that is a good sign. My ex-pastor also endorsed him. I have seen many TV and google ads for Rufus Giffords who seems like a good enough guy but when all I hear from you are ads it just means you have money, not that you are exciting people.
My $0.02 anyway.
trollhattan
@Kay:
Makes a great combined one-two punch with the shenanigans DeVoss is pulling. “Hi students everywhere, SCREW YOU!”
Jeffro
Looks like the whole White-House-not-lowering-the-flag-for-McCain thing is blowing up
Humdog
The judicial picks are toughest in my region, in that it is very hard to get info on the choices. I don’t like voting for judges.
A reliable indicator for me on things like county supervisor or school board members is checking the few openly R businesses who put up political ads and vote the opposite of their endorsement.
Anyone who is willing to put an R next to their name, at this point, or who will vote for Rs at this time, is not a decent person. Period.
Humdog
@Major Major Major Major: what is the beef with workplace cafes?
Major Major Major Major
@Humdog: the local restaurant association is mad that workers aren’t eating lunch out, so they’re lobbying Supervisors to force workers to eat out (possibly with vouchers).
zhena gogolia
@Jeffro:
Everything blows up and then it blows over. I’m exhausted. Nothing ends the torture.
Betty Cracker
@Jeffro: Good. The orange shit-stain has a lot of nerve to rant about NFL players “politicizing the anthem” and then use the goddamned flag to send a posthumous “fuck you” to McCain.
pepper
for certain primary races, I call the candidates’ campaign offices, let them know I am for sure voting in the primary, and ask them to make the case for their candidate. I will read or have read the candidates’ issues pages. while I value the issues pages, hearing the campaign make the case for its candidate in real time is a fun exercise. if I can find places that have published thoughts on local races, I will read that.
cmorenc
I recall the time I used eenie-meenie-minie-mo to pick which “nonpartisan” judicial candidate to vote for in a local judicial election where I knew nothing about any of the candidates. Turns out I inadvertently picked the biggest RW asshole in the bunch. Well, anyways for the next four years, he was at least *my* RW asshole, as well as a permanent reminder that ’tis better to undervote than to cast a vote when you don’t know shit about any of the candidates, not even party affiliation.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s stupid. Unfortunately, homeless people don’t have much of voice of their own.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jeffro:
May just have to listen to SHS try to ‘splain it away at today’s WH press briefing.
PAM Dirac
@DavidC: I also live in Frederick Co, MD and now that I’m retired I’m trying to do what i can to turn the red parts of MD blue. The candidates are quite enthusiastic to get volunteers, although they really, really want you to knock on doors. I’m not sure I could stay civil with trumpsters. One anecdote from the trail: One of the republican goals in this election is to pick up five seats in the MD Senate so Hogan’s vetos won’t be overridden. One of their target seats in in Frederick Co and there was a fundraiser Monday for the red candidate with Hogan in attendance. The local Democrats thought it would be a good idea to have some concrete evidence that not all Frederick is on board. I was one of about 15-20 people, including some of the candidates, standing outside the restaurant holding campaign signs and generally being visibly Democratic. No disruptions, no confrontations and everyone I talked to was in good cheer. On Friday the local paper had a report and boy did the red team come off as petty, defensive, and scared. It reminded me of the Doonesbury cartoon when the Nixon tapes came out. Zonker was listening to the excerpt where Nixon was in a spittle filled rage about a single protestor outside the White House grounds. The protestor was mostly being ignored by everyone, but Nixon just couldn’t deal with it. Zonker thinks back to all the protesting and wondering if it made any difference and now there is proof that at least some of it nearly gave Nixon a stroke and he says “Makes it all worth while”. If these guys are so bent out of shape over a handful of people with signs, I say it is time to put the pedal to the metal and really give them something to worry about.
The Moar You Know
@Major Major Major Major: I was explaining to a couple of young folks who are in love with the adventure mystique of the region why I’d never consider moving back to the Bay Area. I urged them to – they should, you ain’t gonna learn any other way – but told them to always remember that they could leave.
The Moar You Know
@Jeffro: Shit, the damn Walmart I drove by this Sunday did. If the WH isn’t doing it they are going to catch some hell. NOT THAT THEY GIVE A FUCK
Baud
@Jeffro: Again, what part of he doesn’t like soldiers who were captured is confusing to people. That was during the campaign. It should not surprise anyone (except for perhaps the fact that he spoke the truth for once.)
rikyrah
We are deep into the General Election.
My main goal is to get rid of our GOP Governor. And, to pick off a couple of GOP Congressmen who should be prime pickins.
Do our part to get those 24 needed.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
IndyWeek
Humdog
@Major Major Major Major: I understand why the restaurant people would like that restriction, but what right would they have to make it? Whats next, banning bringing your lunch from home or making your own coffee in the office?
Baud
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Damn, that formatting snafu took some skilz.
sharl
I can’t recall where Adam lives in Florida, but this sort of thing would seem to be prime material for an election:
Following up on what someone said in a reply tweet, I found this awesome report from some CATO Institute operation, declaring that ‘Florida is #1 in Freedom’. So, um, congratulations y’all!
Under “Policy Recommendations” at the end of that relatively short read, I found this declaration which suggests that, contrary to Adam’s complaints, suggests that he needs MORE of that stuff he’s griping about:
(I didn’t include the third section, which actually ain’t too bad – CATO’s been pretty good in opposing aggressive/unjustified LEO asset seizures, for example.)
Anyhoo, enjoy the freedom!
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Is that the beginning of the broccoli mandate we were warned about?
Brachiator
This is more about where I do not get candidate information. A question. I hear more younger adults, people age 30 and under, including co-workers, note that they do not read any newspapers or magazines at all, physical copy or digital, apart from entertainment and sports. Many instead live in Twitter or FaceBook.
Does FaceBook run pure political commercials? The kind of ad spots you see on TV or hear on the radio?
In the last few election cycles, I realized that I watched practically zero broadcast TV, none of the standard channels (CBS, ABC, NBC) and listened to more podcasts than to traditional radio. In California (and elsewhere), politicians ramp up the political ads big time, especially on drive time radio. But I missed almost all this advertising. And one of the few times I saw a TV ad was when I was eating at a coffee shop which had the TV tuned to the local ABC station.
So, a lot of political ads just don’t exist for me, and I suspect, for a lot of younger people who no longer watch regular TV, etc. A lot of money seems to be wasted. What are the politicians doing to compensate?
JPL
@zhena gogolia: That’s how I feel, but I know it’s important to stay focused and stay involved.
the Conster
@schrodingers_cat:
I went to the MA SOS website to re-check my registration and there’s a sample ballot for your district. I was canvassed by supporters of Jay Gonzalez, and the only thing I wanted to know was whether they, or him, supported Bernie Sanders. They said no. My MoC is Joe Kennedy, so I’ll stick with him.
Jimmy Tingle the comedian is running for Lieutenant Governor. His issues page is pretty solid and he’s a product of public schools, so I’m thinking, why not? Al Franken turned out fine, but there are lots of uncontested (D) positions.
Gin & Tonic
@The Moar You Know: The WH had it at half-staff on Sunday, too, but that expired at midnight. The Trumpian argument seems to be that that is what the US Flag Code calls for, for a member of Congress – the day of death and the day after. The only exception is if there’s a Presidential proclamation, in which case they remain at half-staff until the day of internment. The WH issued such a proclamation for Billy Graham, private citizen, but couldn’t be bothered to issue a similar one for John McCain, US Senator and former candidate for President.
The Speaker is in control of the flags on Capitol grounds, regardless of the presence or absence of a Presidential proclamation.
A Ghost To Most
@PAM Dirac:
Good luck with Fredneck County. Watch out for the League Of The South-ers in Middletown. We gave up and moved.
rikyrah
A non-White and, on the side of right? No wonder he’s under attack.
Uh huh ? ?
https://twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/1034108475339616260
Major Major Major Major
@Humdog: ??♂️
Mike J
@Wapiti: The stranger is sometimes ok, but I always compare it to the King County Democratic party endorsement list, especially on referenda.
The Stranger is also wrong on Smith v Smith in the 9th. Adam has done a great job and has seniority, Susan is running to excite people who hate the Democratic party.
Sandia Blanca
@SiubhanDuinne: Thanks for the alert! I adore Randy and his biting wit.
bystander
Hurray! I can finally see B/J on my iPad. My favorite place for venting!
Aleta
(On Rikers Island)
‘ Anthony Posada, a slight thirty-three-year-old attorney with the Legal Aid Society, addressed the room. “How many people here know that if you’re on Rikers Island, you can vote?” he asked. … Posada continued: did the group know that many of the people controlling their cases—the judges and the District Attorneys—occupy elected positions? “We have forms,” he said, placing a stack of voter-registration and absentee-ballot applications on a table. “We can start helping people get registered.”
In New York State, prisoners can’t vote if they’re serving time for a felony, but that doesn’t apply to those who are waiting for a decision in their court cases—most of the six thousand and twenty-five inmates at Rikers. Each Monday in August, volunteers have canvassed the city’s jails, making people aware that, as Posada put it, “your voices do matter.”
Posada approached a tall marine who said that he’d last voted in 2008, for Barack Obama. “I didn’t think it impacted me until I got in here,” he said. “I never thought about the legal system, because I was never really a part of it. Once I became part of it, I figured, how bad can it be?” He took an absentee-ballot application.
…
After fifteen minutes, the group got in a van and drove to another razor-wire-ringed facility, one for general-population male inmates. …. Perry Grossman addressed the room. “When you’re a voter, people ask you what you think,” he said. “People ask you what you want. It’s just a way to be more powerful.”
When President Trump was inaugurated, Grossman was a commercial litigator, handling a lawsuit for a liquor distributor. “Meanwhile, the apocalypse was occurring,” he said. “I just kind of lost it, and I was, like, I should be doing something.” He quit his job and joined the New York Civil Liberties Union, where he runs the Voting Rights Project. “Everyone is naturally skeptical of the chubby white guy standing next to a C.O. with a stack of papers,” he said. “But,” he went on, “what we have here at Rikers is a very large population of people who are unregistered but eligible. When you look at margins of error in a lot of close elections, we’re talking about a number of people who could swing a race.”
… Jenar Ortiz said that he’d hoped the volunteers had come to hear inmates’ grievances: “We’re being treated like animals, and nothing is being done.”
“Are you registered to vote?” Grossman asked. “No,” Ortiz said, and accepted a registration form. …
“What are you pretrial for?” Grossman asked.
“Sale of drugs,” Ortiz said. He checked the box to enroll as a Democrat. “I’ve just never voted in my life,” he continued. “But I do care, you know, and I can remember joking in the hallway of where I lived about Trump becoming President. And then, when he got elected, it wasn’t funny no more. It wasn’t a joke anymore.”
…
“When Kanye West runs, I’ll sign up,” an inmate said.
“You might want to register now,” Grossman told him. “So you’re prepared.” ‘
(From NYer. I omitted details about the inmates to save space.)
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/09/03/voter-registration-day-at-rikers-island
rikyrah
@Kay:
Tell the truth, Kay.
TELL IT.
prufrock
@Betty Cracker: Hey Betty! About a month ago, I mentioned to you that I was shocked that DeSantis was going all in on the Trump train. I kept wondering how the hell he was going to tack back to the center. Well since that time I’ve noticed that ALL OF THE REPUBLICANS are doing the same thing, with one exception. Which tells me that they must really be counting on lack of Democratic turnout and voter suppression to do the work.
I’m not sure about the soundness of that strategy, however. The reason being is the exception…Rick Scott. He’s the only major Republican candidate that isn’t filling my Jeopardy! time with lots of commercials that talk about how he stands with Trump. He is a malevolent slimeball, but I think he has good instincts for what makes “Florida Man” tick.
HeleninEire
Oh holy hell. One of my work colleagues collapsed this morning. We were just informed that it was a brain hemorrhage. She is not going to make it. She is 38 years old. A year ago her husband died. She has two children under 10. Her entire family, except for one sister, who is here, is in Romania.
I am at a loss for words. Good God.
cope
We vote with mail-in ballots which I turn in at our polling place. This year, I turned them in the first day of early voting. To choose among various primary candidates and non-partisan school board members and judges, I researched candidates for major seats in the news, on their websites and asking around. For the school board seats and judges, I looked at their websites, concentrating on who endorses them.
One candidate I can’t recall had a FB page as his official website. I didn’t even give him a second’s thought.
I had a moment of panic over the weekend when our precinct captain left a message encouraging all mail-in voters to be sure to get their ballots in. Having turned them in a week earlier, I had to wait until this morning to speak to her on the phone and learn that our ballots were indeed turned in. I also offered to help work our precinct after the primaries.
Baud
@HeleninEire: That’s really tragic. I’m sorry.
Gremcat
We have a vote on an ad valorem tax increase to implement the Marjory Stone Douglas school safety act in central fla. I’m of two minds on this as I suspect that all this will do is pay for arming and training a school administrator which I’m totally against. The county school board has already approved arming the Administrator and now I think they are looking to pay for it. If they dont get the increase they will probably just use their general funds anyway. So not sure how to vote.
Evil_Paul
@Betty Cracker: My feeling on write-in candidates (or voting for the candidate that has no chance) is that it only makes sense if the winner is a reasonable person who genuinely wants to represent their entire constituency. A reasonable person could look at the election results and go “Hmmm…there’s a lot of spoiled ballots here. Voters must be frustrated with their options.” or maybe “Hmmm…my weak opponent from the other party still got a lot of votes. There must be something in their platform that voters like.” and maybe moderate their position accordingly.
That’s if you got a reasonable candidate…
SiubhanDuinne
@HeleninEire:
Oh, Helen, what a terrible thing. I’m so sorry to hear this. Those poor kids, to lose both parents in a year.
Something similar happened just a week ago to the son of a dear friend. He left a wife and three young children. We are all devastated, as I know you and your colleagues are. Hugs.
Lee
@HeleninEire: Holy crap that is awful. Hopefully her family is a tight knit family and call pull together for the kids.
Betty Cracker
@Aleta:
LOL! Some potential voters might be better off on the sidelines…
J R in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
Nothing like trying to use government to enforce a monopoly for your personal profitability, is there? So Republican of them!!!
I worked at a big company with an in-house cafeteria open for breakfast and lunch. Two eggs over easy with bacon and toast was $1.75 or so. I gained a little weight, and decided to start just doing a couple of cups of tea with the free hot water. Still, a great benefit, as we were a couple of miles from the nearest restaurants.
Betty Cracker
@HeleninEire: How terrible. The poor kids…
geg6
I used to read the local newspaper endorsements, but they are useless now that Trumpsters have bought the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and our countywide paper, the Beaver County Times, has become completely made up of advertisements and sports. I only skim through them on a Sunday and don’t take any political or editorial cues from them.
I have never in my life even seen a League of Women Voters compendium, so it’s pretty obvious that I’ve never consulted one.
In local races, I know these people and have for most of my life. So I know who I can and can’t vote for with a clear conscience. I’m pretty pissed that Republicans have so fucked themselves up that I’ll never vote for another again because I sometimes want to vote for a local GOPer who I know is better than the Dem running. Though this happens less and less these days, I like to have options and now I don’t have that. And it’s their own fault.
I read a local online news site, The Beaver Countian, for information on local politics. The dude who runs the site is a little weird, but he gets all the dirt and is much more reliable than the dead tree Times. I follow and attend meetings of Beaver County Blue. I still pay attention to the sample ballot that the local Democratic Party sends out. For statewide races, I read the Philly papers and sites to get their perspective.
PAM Dirac
@A Ghost To Most: We’ve only been here since 2007 and even in that relatively short amount of time thing seem to be changing. New Democratic registration is far outpacing new Republican and I think the Republicans now only have about a 5% advantage. It might be that I’m more tuned in than in 2014, but there seems to me to be a whole more signs for Democratic candidates in areas where I’m used to seeing only Republican (or confederate flags). One more anecdote that I hope is part of a trend. I did a postcard writing session for one of the candidates (Ysela Bravo, Delegate, District 4). It was a very enjoyable time, but some serious discussion about what’s going on. One woman said she was raised in New England and her whole family was Republican. She moved to Frederick a number of years ago and while she though the Republicans weren’t exactly what she was used to, since Republicans won most of the races, she thought she would stay a Republican and vote for the more moderate ones. You can guess how well that worked out. The last straw was in the 2016 election. She has a teenage son that was adopted as a baby from Korea. He was scared to death he was going to get deported. She told him that couldn’t happen because he was a full American citizen. He wanted a way to prove it, so they had to get a passport so he could feel safer. The blatant, petty meanness is getting to at least some of the Republicans.
Brachiator
OK, where do I get candidate and issue info?
I will listen to the programs devoted to issues and candidates on my local non-NPR public radio station, KPCC, 89.3. I will check out one local broadcast radio station, KFI, KNX news radio and wherever Stephanie Miller is hanging out. I will browse several California newspapers, even googling past stories. The usual suspects: LA Times, SF Chronicle, San Jose Mercury News, Sacramento Bee. I tend to depend on the LA Times for info on Judicial candidates (Superior Court, etc). The public TV stations are useless and I avoid them. Similarly, with local public affairs programs.
If candidates talk to newspaper editorial boards, I will read the transcripts, if available.
I will check out the material from the League of Women Voters, and the official material which comes from the California secretary of state.
I know a few politically connected people, and will ask their opinion.
lee
To the topic at hand.
I live in deep red texas (North Texas suburb) but my local government (city & school board) is very moderate. A while back we had an attempt by Tea Party nutters to get on the city council and just recently the school board. Every attempt failed.
TriassicSands
Casting a vote for someone you don’t support is distasteful. Does running up vote totals for Republicans convey a sense of legitimacy and approval? Is that worse than having the most offensive wingnut of all win? Tough questions.
Voting for the best of a bad lot is defensible unless that candidate is simply a slightly less terrible alternative. Deciding in elections like those for school board is complicated by the common problem of too little information.
If you think one candidate would be demonstrably better than others, then voting for that person (today’s almost inevitable “lesser evil”) is justifiable.
Why are there no Democratic candidates? Why don’t you run for the school board, Betty?
khead
@PAM Dirac:
I’m still a bit amazed at how petty Hogan – the so-called moderate – can be at times. Dude is up double digits and just killing Jealous with TV ads. He doesn’t really need to be petty. Of course, that’s what those “Democrats for Hogan” (aka older white folks in the outer counties) like about him.
Citizen Alan
@cmorenc:
Elected judiciaries are the most idiotic thing in the history of democracy. Virtually no one who votes for an elected judge even understands what they do, let alone has any idea about what each candidate’s ideology might be or how it might affect their rulings from the bench.
J R in WV
@sharl:
So CATO thinks Florida should de-regulate:
Say whut!?!
I think CATO members and employees should be forced to see barbers for all the medical needs, 100%. First thing I want is unregulated medical staff!!!
Oh, Mr JR, your blood count for frog eggs is way low, you need to eat more mosquitoes.
Right, Republican medical care plan, make it so anyone can be a doctor, then no one will need insurance! OMFJG
Gelfling 545
@J R in WV: Sure, going out for that leisurely half hour lunch. By the time your food is served you’d have to be back at work.
MisterForkbeard
You know, I’m seeing more and more noise about how Mueller HAS to make news and indict this week or he’s not going anything for the next 2 months.
Does this bug anyone else? It’s not that Mueller won’t do anything near an election, it’s that Mueller won’t do anything relating to those running for election. So he’s completely free to (say) indict Eric Trump or Don Jr., various members of the administration, etc. He’s just not going to indict Ted Cruz for anything. Or have I completely misunderstood this?
hitchhiker
I’m in Seattle. The nearest congressional district that’s on the tossup list is WA 08, where a woman pediatrician just won the primary to challenge a Republican named Dino Rossi who has lost a couple of statewide elections. She’s personable and capable as far as I can tell, but I’m not in her district so didn’t get to choose in the primary.
My plan is to show up at her campaign office right after labor day and ask to be put to work. If we don’t flip the house because of that one seat, I won’t be able to live with myself if I wasn’t part of the campaign . WA doesn’t have an actual voting day — it has a your-ballot-must-be-mailed-by-today system, which means the gotv effort will be a little different. Whatever it takes, winning the house is priority one.
TriassicSands
Addition to previous comment:
The age of the Internet has made voting for minor offices much easier in some cases. Where I live there are some excellent resources available about candidates, especially helpful is information about judicial candidates. Local offices pose the biggest problems. The local newspaper publishes a “Voters’ Guide” (available online) that includes Q&As with candidates, but the answers are often so generic as to offer no help at all.
Accurate information is the key to responsible voting. That’s why Republicans are so dishonest.
MisterForkbeard
@HeleninEire: “Good God” sounds about right. That’s incredibly tragic – that poor woman, and her poor children. I really wish there was something we could do in cases like this.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
I guess that someone wants to be able to say, “Well, that’s the last straw….”
Mnemosyne
@Jeffro:
I was not a fan of McCain’s, but the man was a goddamned US Senator. Like it or not, he should get the flag lowered for him.
Though I’m not surprised that the Trumpistas can’t figure out something so goddamned simple.
Elizabelle
@Jeffro:
I am glad to see yet another thing blow up in this jackass’s face.
I canvassed Chesterfield County in the Richmond, VA area yesterday. Lot of Republicans, moderate and a few not, on my list. One woman told me how sad she was about John McCain. I sympathized with her.
If Donald Fucking Trump wants to antagonize and disrespect all the Americans who feel that the late John McCain should be treated with more respect, go for it, jackass.
I cannot believe someone at the White House did not talk him out of it.
I am thrilled that he has not been invited to the McCain funeral, and hope he stays away. Ruins everything he is associated with.
J R in WV
@HeleninEire:
That’s quite a blow for everyone at work. I’m glad the kids at least have an aunt in country to help them out. And a socialist system to help aunt care for them. Hang in there. 38, geeze that’s young.
TriassicSands
@Wapiti:
I live on the Olympic Peninsula, but find the Stranger guide, especially for judicial candidates, to be quite helpful. There are also progressive voting guides that offer useful assistance. But when it gets down to the “minor” local elections, like school board, it can be a problem to get the information one needs to choose among candidates.
schrodingers_cat
Is it just me or is anyone else tired of McCain hagiographies and the tire-swing kids grief over losing their bestie.
MisterForkbeard
@J R in WV: I was in the Czech Republic a few years back, and most medium-large size employers do something like this. Business can buy into a government funded lunch voucher system. You pay for a bunch of stamps at (pulling numbers out of my ass here) a $6 cost to you, but is worth $12 in a restaurant, and most of the restaurants accept it. The difference in cost is shared between the business (20% or so) and the government (the other 80%), and the stamps are given out at your workplace at the beginning of every month.
It’s actually a great system. A good benefit that the businesses can offer, minor cost to the government, and lots of money for local restaurants. We should adopt something like that in California – it’d be very useful in the bay.
FelonyGovt
My local Democratic club isn’t terribly active, but it’s my best source for figuring out who to vote for in non-partisan races like judges and the city council. Last election I inadvertently voted for a Republican for our city council and I’ve been kicking myself ever since.
Elizabelle
The flags are going back down. WaPost, just now:
So, flags are at half-staff for Senator McCain.
And TOTUS stepped on his miniscule dick again. It’s Monday.
Betty Cracker
@Citizen Alan: It really is dumb. If I didn’t have friends who worked in the system to give me their take, I wouldn’t have enough info to make an informed choice, and I’ve researched it.
Gelfling 545
The big story around here is still Chris Collins and how to get him off the ballot. He could die, move out of state or run for/ be appointed to another office to get his name removed. The only one the Democrats won’t take to court is possibly if he died but I don’t expect he’d go that far to accomodate the local party. They’ve been trying to insert him into a contest for town assessor in a small town here but both dems & gop are resisting mightily as they are already fully equipped with candidates of both parties and are refusing to be a “dumping ground” (their term) for stray felonious Congressmen.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
Try to make TV watching mandatory?
Because it seems that is the level that a lot of politicians think at.
On that same note, I watch zero TV so I see no political commercials except when someone here posts a particularly bad one. And I see no reason to watch one of those. But I get about 20 or more political emails every day, most of course asking for money but some like from Kammala Harris, are pretty damn good, actually explaining something and taking a position. If she asks for money it’s not just a mom guilt bleg, it’s explained and has rational behind it.
schrodingers_cat
Hundreds of asylum seeking children still unaccounted for and separated from their parents
Big yawn from the MSM.
T being T about their bestie McCain.
They are sputtering with outrage.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Not watching. Haven’t seen any news since Saturday night, for 30 minutes during Andrea Fucking Greenspan’s grief-fest.
schrodingers_cat
@Elizabelle: I am not watching either, this is just the newspapers and Twitter. It is gross.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: You know he won’t be able to keep his big fat yap shut. Someone aside from his precious self — a not-Trump who was critical of Trump at times — will be in the headlines for at least a couple of days. The fact that Obama and Bush 2 are invited to the funeral but Trump was not is a further irritant. He’ll blow up at some point and make a further ass of himself, almost certainly.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Maybe we are seeing the death of the tire-swingers’ illusions about the Republican party too.
But probably not. Careerists gotta career.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Baud: And I can’t edit to fix it! *wail*
It all looked right before I hit Post. No idea what happened.
@Mnemosyne: The Trumpistas had it figured out. The Fart Cloud overruled them.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: And the McCain family will have the high road. As will we all.
I suspect this behavior motivates Team Mueller all the more too.
You know, I would like to see Trump in jail awaiting charges, Pence out of office too, and Tim Kaine appointed Speaker of the House and then POTUS, to serve as caretaker. I would be fine with him as presidential candidate for 2020 too.
Previous to 2016, he had never lost an election. Honestly, I don’t think he and Hillary lost that one. I hope that all comes out, and soon, and makes people both sick and angry, angry, angry at what we have all been forced to live through.
OzarkHillbilly
Research the candidates? If I’m lucky there is a DEM running.
TriassicSands
@Mnemosyne:
Also not a fan and the lionizing, even deifying of McCain is out of control. However, as a US Senator not currently in jail (prior to his death), under indictment, or even investigation, McCain deserves a minimal amount of respect. Lowering the flag is less than minimal, which is why it’s no surprise that it it too much for Trump.
Once again though, this lack of even minimal decency is unlikely to cause Trump any problems among his base. Most of them probably agree wholeheartedly with Trump about McCain. And in the Cult of Trump I think you are obligated to despise anyone who has criticized the cult’s leader.
The only upside of the absurd praise for McCain currently being pushed by the MSM is that if Trump is aware of it (inside his little Fox/Twitter bubble) it must be driving him crazy.
Elizabelle
@HeleninEire: Very sorry to hear that. What a tragedy, and a shock those children will never get over. My condolences.
JWL
“Is that the best strategy, or should I write in Badger McMurtry”?
You answered your own question by being repulsed by the ‘R’ after their names on the ballot. I freely admit I’ve cast ballots for democrats that may as well have been republicans, like Dianne Feinstein. The ‘D’ after her name on the ballot was essentially imposed on her because she’s a San Franciscan, a town where republicans are a rare breed and don’t win many elections. But I would as soon vote for a member of the American Nazi Party as I would any republican. Granted, that’s the way it’s always been with me. The only difference simply being that nowadays the feeling is much more heartfelt and implacable. Forget Trump- those fuckers crossed the Rubicon with me in March of 2003.
HeleninEire
Thank you all for your kind words. Yes. It’s all about the children. My mother died when I was 12 and of course my first thought was what about the kids? Its a tough road.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Major Major Major Major: One place I worked at contracted with a disabled services group for the workplace cafeteria. We got to pit them against the restaurants when things like this showed up.
Elizabelle
@TriassicSands:
Fuck Trump’s base. I really don’t care to consider them for any reason. They are deplorable, there is something deeply wrong with them, possibly not fixable, and people here at Balloon Juice spend way too much time commenting about them.
They are something to work around, and not people to assign undue influence and power to. They are losers.
Elizabelle
@JWL:
@ Betty Cracker:
Since all you have are Republicans, I think you should vote for the least objectionable. Give that person a lift.
Badger can run another year.
TriassicSands
@Betty Cracker:
I wonder, if Trump had been invited to the funeral, would he have gone? Or, because he is the world’s most petty person would he have found some transparently phony excuse to not attend in one last attempt to get the best of McCain?
TenguPhule
Somebody can surely appreciate the irony that I escaped the storm’s effects on Thursday, Friday, Saturday & Sunday only to feel Lane’s remains today. Rainy, 120% humidity and warm as fuck. Gah!
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
There are only a finite amount of ways to Serve Man, after all.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Not having the television on helps with this. I haven’t heard a thing.
Mnemosyne
@J R in WV:
Also pharmacy technicians. Because who really cares if you get the wrong drug, amirite? Everyone should have the knowledge to double-check the pharmacy technicians and make sure they didn’t get the wrong drug by mistake. ?
Dorothy A. Winsor
IMHO, you pick the best of what’s available. Anything else tosses you into the Jill Stein voter crowd.
Elizabelle
@TenguPhule: Glad you are safe, if a bit heated up. So your area did not suffer property damage?
Lapassionara
@HeleninEire: How awful! So sorry.
zhena gogolia
@TenguPhule:
So glad to see you! We’ve been getting constant bulletins from NotMax but not a word from you. I hope you weighted down the base of the guillotine so it won’t blow over.
TriassicSands
@Elizabelle:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, though I’m much less certain that it’s your job to tell others what they can and can’t or should and shouldn’t comment about.
They are losers who won the presidential election of 2016 and are currently wrecking this country. We ignore them at our own peril. I won’t begin to tell you how you should feel about Trump’s base or how much time, if any, you should spend thinking or commenting about them. That’s up to you.
But Trump’s base, more so than Trump himself, is the real problem we face in this country. They will still exist and still be poisoning this country long after Trump the Toddler Tyrant is gone.
Shana
I haven’t read through the thread yet, but just wanted to mention that something the local Dems have done for the last few years is send a letter from the D precinct captain urging folks to vote, Strong Dems, Lean Dems, Independents (self identified here in Virginia since we don’t register by party) and No Datas. The back of the letter has a sample ballot including any bond issues, possible changes to the state constitution, etc. The letters usually go out about a week or two before the election. I’ve had lots of folks show me their letter on their way into the polling location and say they were very happy to have received it. Not cheap because of postage, but a really good return on investment in my opinion.
Taken4Granite
(delurking)
Where I live, the primary is still two weeks away. I live in the NH-01 Congressional District, where 11 people are vying for the Democratic nomination to replace retiring Carol Shea-Porter. Yes, Levi Sanders is one of those 11. No, I have seen no evidence that he is actually campaigning for the seat–no mailings, no canvassing attempts (I live in one of the bluest towns in the state), no yard signs.
Five candidates do appear to be seriously running: Naomi Andrews, Deaglan McEachern, Chris Pappas, Lincoln Soldati, and Maura Sullivan. All of them have at least attempted to canvas me (two of them left literature after finding me not at home, three made actual contact with me). Pappas appears to be the frontrunner: most of the local Dem establishment has endorsed him. Andrews is Shea-Porter’s chief of staff and has her endorsement. I recognize Soldati as the name of a former Strafford County DA who has some baggage (I’m not sure whether it’s the same guy or his son that is running). I think I’d be happy with any of the other four. I am currently leaning Andrews but could be persuaded by one of the other candidates.
The Republican frontrunner is Andy Sanborn. All I know about Sanborn is that (1) he is pro-Trump and (2) he has one of my e-mail addresses via Frank Guinta (I don’t know how Guinta got my e-mail address, but he has passed it on to a bunch of other Republicans)–I trash anything I get from his campaign as soon as I see who it’s from.
I have seen yard signs for a couple of other candidates, but I don’t even know which party they are in.
TenguPhule
@Baud:
Broccoli was 2008. Its all Kale now.
sharl
@J R in WV: Following Ken White (@Popehat), I see a lot of libertarians; White is one himself, which isn’t always immediately obvious, maybe because he isn’t hardcore about it (e.g., he’s not one of those municipal water privatization nuts afaik.)
Those folks are HUGE on deregulation. The daughter of Tom Nichols – the ‘Death of Expertise’ guy & prof. at the Naval War College – works for a libertarian org (“R Street” iirc), and her big thing is excessive regulation by some states of the beauty salon/cosmetology business. I have no idea if there’s actually a problem, but I’ve heard they sometimes use some NASTY chemicals in that business, so I would hope SOMEONE is keeping an eye on them.
[In my own encounters with regulatory actions gone bad (environmental in my case), it usually wasn’t the laws that were real bad – maybe too vague (crafting environment regs is HARD) – but the people working for the agencies. You were never quite sure who was going to show up, how well trained they were, what agenda they may have had, and what mood they were in on the day of their visit.]
Major Major Major Major
@HeleninEire: how awful. So sorry to hear.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle: There was a fire, not as bad as Maui but exciting to watch as the phone poles burned. Otherwise we got off with just rainy weather. Big Island took the worst of it. Four feet of rain in 48 hours.
TenguPhule
@zhena gogolia: Lost internet connection briefly at the start of it, then spent a day boarding up the house (literally) and clearing all the potential missiles out of the yard. Now I gotta unboard the house windows of all that plywood. Which I plan to do after it stops raining. So probably this weekend.
TenguPhule
@TriassicSands:
I have a simple solution to that.
hitchhiker
The good thing about all the pundit garment-rending over McCain’s death is that it’s underlining the contrast between his genuine “straight talk” and Trump’s con artist bluster.
It could move some fraction of the “slightly unfavorables” to the “strongly unfavorables” column, assuming it comes across as genuine, which it does, at least from what I’ve seen.
So interesting how Trump instinctively goes to the option that fires up the most hate, every single time. It’s like he hasn’t yet understood that the rules are different now than in 2016. He thinks his surprise win means that motivated voters are all he needs. He’s going to find out what it feels like when the voters motivated against him are twice as numerous as the ones motivated for him. That wasn’t a factor in 2016, but it will be this fall.
sharl
@HeleninEire: My belated condolences on the loss of your colleague, and for the children she left behind.
khead
@sharl:
See Matt Yglesias, Occupational Licensing.
Elizabelle
@TriassicSands: What can we do with them? Sterilize them? Force them away from Fox News at gunpoint?
We can certainly support and enact policies that help them too — healthcare, financial protection, environmental and consumer safety, perhaps even reduce the chance of their children getting shot up at school.
Maybe some of them will notice and appreciate; most will not and will resist to the last because — freedom! I will be happy if we can push the behavior they’re exhibiting back under a rock, where it belongs.
They’re not this all-powerful group. They’re toxic, and they’re a reminder that what befell Germany in the 1930s can hit us too.
Mnemosyne
@Gelfling 545:
Well, that’s not possible, because we had tons of Sandernistas running around telling us it was super easy to get off the ballot in New York, so clearly the only reason that Joe Crowley refused to get himself removed from the Working Families Party ballot line using one of the approved methods was because he was secretly planning a third-party run. ?
rikyrah
@HeleninEire:
That is so sad. Those poor children :(
sharl
@khead: Thanks; I’ve seen Yglesias occasionally pop up in my twitter TL on this issue, but rarely followed the links. It’s one of those issues where I wonder what I’m NOT being told, which means tracking down a whole lot of stuff to get an adequate education on the relevant concerns.
TriassicSands
@HeleninEire:
Life is so unfair, sometimes monstrously so.
Elizabelle
@Shana: That’s a great idea. I hope we do that here in central VA too. I will ask!
PaulWartenberg
The Polk County ballot I have does not include write-in spaces. hopefully for you in your county you have one for the School Board votes.
I am utterly horrified that the Democrats failed to find at least ONE person to run for School Board, but that is the great sin, isn’t it, for the Dems: the failure to recruit at the county and state level to challenge every seat with better choices than the same-old goddamned Republicans.
For myself, I had to review each name on the Independent ballot – I am not a registered party person myself, yeah I know my own hypocrisy is hard to justify – and did my damnedest to avoid Republican candidates. I saw one judicial candidate had a problem with paying her HOA and that her husband was a Republican consultant and I immediately said HELL NO and am voting for the other person who may be a Republican but at least spends time with local charities.
Brachiator
@hitchhiker:
Trump doesn’t think that he ever has to change or adjust. And as long as the GOP leadership gives him cover, he may be partly right.
A strong voter turnout can make all the difference. Hit him where he’s not looking.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@TriassicSands:
They aren’t that numerous and I don’t believe for one second that they won legitimately. Too much shit was going on in 2016 that I don’t believe Trump will win in 2020, assuming he’s still in office/alive by then.
Major Major Major Major
@sharl:
Becoming a licensed cosmetologist in California requires 1600 hours of education and 3200 hours of apprenticeship.
Mnemosyne
@sharl:
I’m pretty sure that the people who bitch about barbers and cosmetologists needing to be licensed have never had their hair dyed or permed. You’d better believe that I want the person putting corrosive chemicals on my head to have a license to do it so I know I’m not going to go home with chemical burns (or that I can get their license taken away if they do).
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@TenguPhule:
Dare I ask what?
Also, glad to hear you’re fine after that tropical storm. It mostly missed the island right? I wasn’t paying that much attention since school started again
TenguPhule
Also, Woo Hoo for our State’s 3rd Little League Championship. Clean sweep!
TenguPhule
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Exile to Siberia.
Its traditional.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Most common violations found upon inspection of licensed shops:
https://www.barbercosmo.ca.gov/laws_regs/common_violations.shtml
Libertarians want the state to no longer be able to fine or even inspect.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: not everybody who thinks a 2-3-year certification process is excessive also thinks there should be no certification process.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
I’m not reading it that way. The article is about the WH raising the flag to full staff this morning after minimal time at half. I don’t see anything to indicate that the WH flags have been lowered again.
A Ghost To Most
@PAM Dirac: I’m glad to hear Fredneck is changing. We left in 2009, after living there for 26 years.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
How much certification should someone have to put ammonium thioglycolate in a pH range of 9-10 on someone else’s head?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Mnemosyne:
The more I hear about these “Libertarians” the more they suck. Somalia here we come!
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: People who don’t live in a very narrow temperature range just don’t get it. Five over the typical (typical here in San Diego is 74F) is sheer misery. Five under means jacket weather.
jonas
@prufrock:
More like they realize that the base is 110% behind Trump and if they want even the slimmest chance of winning the Republican vote, they have to practically out-Trump Trump. Deep down, of course, they realize that this also means their chances in the general are correspondingly dim. Outside DeplorableWorld™ Trump is as popular as crotch lice and the more you’re for Trump, the more Dems are motivated to vote *against* you. I don’t think even the trumpiest candidate this year is under the illusion that Dem turnout or enthusiasm will be low. Voter suppression? Might work if this were shaping up to be a squeaker of an election, but not in a wave.
OzarkHillbilly
@PaulWartenberg:
I can here the pitch:
“We want you to run for the school board. It won’t cost much money but you will have to spend several evenings a week at coffee klatsches, candidate forums and debates where the crowds will be abusive from the gitgo, calling you a socialist, a godless heathen and worst of all, a Democrat. Oh, and we guarantee you will lose so you’ll only have to put up with the abuse for a few months at worst. The death threats should stop within a month of the election. How about it?”
Who could resist?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@TenguPhule:
Oh. For some reason I was expecting something far worse.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I don’t know, but I bet it isn’t three years. How much certification should somebody need to tattoo you? Currently it’s about a three hour training course. Seems a little light! The difference makes me wonder if there isn’t something more going on than occupational safety concerns.
Jerry
If you want to follow the political happenings in North Carolina, then follow @gercohen (Gerry Cohen) on twitter. He offers up a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the shenanigans happening here in the Old North State.
TenguPhule
Mexico tries to make a deal with Trump. This will not end well.
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
What Trump and the Trumpistas are good at is being petty. So that’s what they do.
dww44
@Humdog: Particularly if they feel strongly enough to offend customers who aren’t so inclined. Back in the day, small business owners kept their politics out of their storefronts. I quit doing business with a local coffee shop in 2014 when the owner went full bore in for David Perdue even though he was getting lots of business from nearby Michelle Nunn Democratic local campaign offices. I’ve stayed away ever since.
That’s the thing that has really changed in this very partisan country. People didn’t used to feel compelled to wear their political preferences on their sleeves.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I agree that the tattoo artist requirements are a bit light considering the statistics for infections that people get from the procedure. 2 to 3 years of training for cosmetology doesn’t seem crazy to me — it’s an associate’s degree from a junior college.
Jeffro
@Elizabelle:
Yup – just keep helping reinforce that entirely correct opinion that you’re scum, Donnie.
I found this highly encouraging and sent it to my RWNJ dad who was woot-wooting about minor progress w/ Mexico on a NAFTA-related issue. The Full Spectrum Corruption of Donald Trump
The author’s contention is that everything Trumpov touches rots, while Rick Wilson says it dies, and we at BJ say it just simply turns to shit. It’s possible we’re all correct…
This is from a life-long Republican, no less. I know Trumpov’s MAGAts won’t care (or if they do, they’ll gladly bask in our loathing)…but it’s good to see the #NeverTrumpers so loudly proclaiming what a vile human being Trumpov is, and by extension, everyone who supports him too. We’ll need their votes and their energy to put us over the top in 2018 and 2020
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Not just you. After 5 threads praising McCain, can we have a thread to bury him?
Frankensteinbeck
OT, Trump has announced he reached a trade deal with Mexico. Does anyone know the details? I’ve heard two conflicting versions, ‘No one knows what’s in it’ and ‘It just changes the name of NAFTA.’ I am mindful that the last two deals he negotiated, with North Korea and the EU, turned out to not exist. Also, is it true that the next president of Mexico will have to ratify it?
JMG
Re: the Mass. primaries: The hot race on the Dem. side is for Sec. of State. Bill Galvin, who’s had the job since before Mass. was a state, is running against a young chap named Zakim, whose father has a bridge named after him. Galvin’s not called the Prince of Darkness for nothing, so I’m going with the new guy. Having the primaries the day after Labor Day is extra stupid, a guarantee of low turnout in a state where people usually vote way above the national average.
TriassicSands
@Elizabelle:
The answers that might have once been appropriate no longer apply for the most part. The vast majority of Trump’s base is, I fear, beyond help. I have long felt that stupidity was a growing problem among American voters. The rise in stupidity is similar in some ways to some of our emerging health problems — autism, mystery diseases with no known cause, etc. — there are so many possible causes that are so inextricably mixed with so much else that identifying a single cause is impossible. When I think of Trump’s base, I think of the big three: stupidity, ignorance, and racism. The three are interconnected and, in a way, you can often explain both ignorance and racism using stupidity. The problem is that while it is possible (at least in theory) to do something about ignorance and racism (which is usually an offshoot of ignorance…and stupidity), there isn’t any way to fix stupidity.
If that is true, then we have to approach every election with the knowledge that there will be an immovable opposition that will be unaffected by the campaign or facts or truth. The only way to combat that is by maximizing our own turnout, because there are more people in this country who should be voting for Democrats than for Republicans. (And that includes a large part of Trump’s base.) However, stupidity and ignorance are common on both sides of the political spectrum. On the right they are represented by stupid people voting for despicable candidates. On the left, the problem is different. Most of the ignorance and stupidity is embodied in people who don’t bother to vote. So, what we have to do is find a way to get them to vote. We don’t have to make them smarter, because we probably can’t, but we do have to find ways to get them involved. Overcoming their ignorance (for example: there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans) will be a herculean task. But it may be our only hope. It doesn’t matter if the population is changing in a way that should help Democrats if those people don’t vote.
I have taught quite a few Mexican (and Central American) immigrants ESL and one of the things I stressed to them was that while I understood and supported their decision to come to the US, it would be wrong for them to remain here solely for the economic benefits. They should become active members of the society, become informed, and vote. And I didn’t pretend that generic voting was what mattered. They were all people who had clear reasons to support Democrats, but many, as Catholics were susceptible to the lure of single-issue voting, i.e., abortion. I explained why it was important for them to have their own beliefs, which they should practice, but why it was even more important for them to be willing to let others make their own choices even when those choices were in conflict with their, i.e., the immigrants, own deeply held beliefs.
TenguPhule
@Jeffro:
Please note they said this under the leadership of Newt Gingrich and Tom Delay.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Right, but a lot of that degree is spent learning business and aesthetics, not chemical-handling. Which I agree is important! I just don’t see why the rest of the curriculum should be part of a minimum business licensure requirement, and not something that gets you a private certification. I know tattoo artists just do one or two things and cosmetologists deal with a lot more, but I think the vast requirement gulf pretty clearly points to some regulatory capture.
Miss Bianca
@HeleninEire: Oh, dear, that is dreadful. So sorry to hear it.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Also, tattoo artists are required to get a Hepatitis B vaccination, annual training, and updated certificates every year, plus the shop they work in has to be licensed. Don’t get a tattoo from anyone who can’t show you their certification.
https://www.sfdph.org/dph/EH/BodyArt/default.asp
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Less substantial then the NK agreement.
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: It is a skilled trade involving dangerous chemical. I am okay with making someone learn how to do it. It takes a while to become a plumber or electrician too.
Betty Cracker
@TriassicSands: I think Trump would have attended if invited and given the worst eulogy in the history of oration. He would find a way to insult the mourners, impugn the deceased (for the correct things he did in life), and, most of all, make the occasion all about Trump.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Cosmetologists are basically contractors — that’s why you see signs outside of salons advertising available chairs. People going into that field need to know how not to get screwed by that system, and how to organize their own salon if they should choose to open one.
I honestly don’t think that 2 years of small business education plus health education is excessive. YMMV.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: A stick in the arm and annual 2-hour OSHA recertification is pretty light too. They’re only requiring the (too) bare minimum for public health. Regarding licensing the business itself, that’s true, but you need those cosmetologist hours just to work in a shop.
TenguPhule
Is it me or are the hamsters at BJ chewing on the comment box? its freezing like crazy.
Frankensteinbeck
@TenguPhule:
The word ‘apparent’ is key here. For decades, the Republican Party has been the party of asshole racists who want to claim they’re the dignified mature and reasonable ones, unlike those long-haired hippies. Trump is making it harder to pat themselves on the back, that’s all.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I don’t think it’s outrageous to suggest that cosmetologists are overregulated and tattoo artists are underregulated. While I can see a state interest in preventing contractors from getting screwed, I’m also not sure you do that with patchwork licensure requirements for contractors, instead of laws about business owners not screwing contractors.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, but those are MANLY trades where you learn how to use dangerous chemicals, not girly ones. //
Also, depending on what one wants to do, you don’t necessarily need a full cosmetology license. There are other licenses to do similar things (like electrology) that have lesser requirements. But everyone loves to focus on cosmetology and barbering because they think it’s silly and frivolous.
bemused
@Betty Cracker:
Exactly!
Who the hell and their loved ones would want him at his/her funeral anyway? No one in their right minds.
Reading Minnpost.com, I haven’t read this piece yet but love the title: DC Memo, All the President’s Bail Bondsmen
bemused
@Frankensteinbeck:
Canada hasn’t been contacted by US to take part in a “deal” yet, last I read.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I also don’t think it’s sexist to suggest that cosmetologists are over-regulated and tattoo artists are under-regulated.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
How is something with a defined number of required training hours and a licensing requirement a “patchwork”?
And the business owners are also license holders, because that’s how the business works. You get your training, you work for someone for a while, you move from shop to shop, and eventually you open up your own shop. There isn’t really any meaningful division in training between “owners” and “cosmetologists.” All cosmetologists get trained in how to eventually become owners if they want to. Dividing that up between untrained owners and trained cosmetologists seems like it would make matters even worse if you’re concerned about the workers.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne:
Because it only applies to one industry. If your interest is contractors not getting screwed, you don’t address that by requirements *for* contractors *one industry at a time*. Why should the burden fall on the contractor anyway?
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Sorry, I wasn’t saying that the tattoo artist/cosmetologist is itself sexist. I agree that tattoo artists are vastly underregulated.
I do think it’s weird that people accept that plumbers and electricians need training and apprenticeship, but cosmetology/barbering is so simple and easy that it doesn’t need to be regulated.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TenguPhule: Headline on the Philly Inquirer on Sunday morning: “From War Hero to Senate Maverick”
Could you be any lazier than to just type in the standard tired unsupported cliches? They were old when Tina Fey said “I’d ask what a maverick would do, and I’d do that”.
geg6
@schrodingers_cat:
To be fair, I heard mention of those kids on both MSNBC (numerous times on numerous shows, but AM Joy more than anyone) and HBO (Bill Maher’s show) over the weekend.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
My interest is in not coming home from the hairdresser with chemical burns. I am glad that they also receive business training in how not to get screwed and how to safely open their own salon when they’re ready, but really my main interest is selfish.
If you have stories from actual aspiring cosmetologists saying that the training requirements are too stringent, I would be interested in seeing them. So far, the only people I’ve seen complaining are people like Matt Yglasias who clearly think that the job can’t possibly require THAT much training since it’s so easy.
SiubhanDuinne
@Betty Cracker:
I seem to recall an anecdote about Trump speaking at Fred Trump’s funeral, and turning it quickly from a eulogy to his father into lists of all the reasons his father supported him in early Manhattan real-estate ventures.
satby
@HeleninEire: Helen, contact my friend on FB, Tom Dunning. He’s an American-Irish dual citizen, and works for the Irish government regarding child immigrant issues.
Also copying to FB.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I know a couple barbers who yowled about the process when they were getting certified.
prufrock
@jonas: Which is why I’m worried about Rick Scott. He’s campaigning like someone who expects to win. I hope he’s wrong.
Cheryl Rofer
@Mnemosyne: Not to mention needing to understand keeping one’s implements sanitized after using them. Recognizing communicable diseases like ringworm.
Lapassionara
@Betty Cracker: Yes. I have been thinking about the national mourning rituals we go through when a well known person dies. For an Aretha Franklin, we have one type of ritual, for a John McKain, another type.
Since his sphere was politics, and since he was viewed as a potential leader of his side of the aisle (note I said viewed), the ritual seems to include extolling his virtues and, while recognizing his weaknesses, finding a way to put them aside for the time being.
We all seem to sense that there is some sort of proper way to refer to the deceased at these times, and those who ignore this aspect of the national ritual seem churlish and small, even if we, individually, would have agreed with the churlish conduct at one time.
I am not sure when pontificators will be free to mention McKain’s sins against the Republic again, but just a few days after his death is too soon.
That Trump does not recognize this ritual, and his expected role in it, just emphasizes his smallness and his unfitness for the office he holds.
TenguPhule
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Have you ever been to Siberia? In the winter?
FlyingToaster
@JMG: Remember that Galvin set the primary day…
I’m voting for Zakim as well, but I’m pretty sure that HerrDoktor is continuing to vote for the Prince of Darkness… That’s going to be a squeaker, along with Gonzalez v Massie for [D] Governor. And fuck Charlie Baker with a rusty Red Line rail.
geg6
@Major Major Major Major:
Here in PA, they not only have to have 1250 hours of schooling plus 2000 hours of apprenticeship, they have to pass a licensing exam and a criminal background check (that’s just for cosmetologist…there are different requirements for braiding and nails). And I don’t know anyone who wants that to change. Too many bad things can happen using chemicals and with keeping instruments and other things in good, clean working order.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: I don’t think you’ve explained (or I’ve missed) why training in business administration should be part of the licensure requirements for cosmetologists. It isn’t part of the training or licensure requirements for electricians, or cataract surgeons, or a whole host of other occupations.
p.s. FYWP doesn’t seem to think “licensure” is a valid word. I disagree, as do Merriam and Webster.
TenguPhule
@Lapassionara:
Can we safely ignore him instead? We can savor the image of his eternal soul being welcomed into the seventh circle of Hell in silence.
jonas
@prufrock: I don’t know from Florida politics, but my impression from a million miles away is that he’s sort of keeping Trump at arms length at this point — not openly criticizing him, but also not going out of his way to embrace him, like the shitheel in Georgia who has practically promised to name his next child Trump, regardless of gender, in an effort to toady up to the president.
James E Powell
@schrodingers_cat:
I feel like I was tired of them before they started. But let’s wait until after the funeral.
Side question. Who do you think the Village will choose to be McCain’s successor as perennial Sunday Show War Grampa?
TenguPhule
@James E Powell:
John Kelly. Because this is the worst timeline, after all.
geg6
@Major Major Major Major:
For tattoo shops here, you don’t need the apprenticeship, but you do need a license. Which means you have to pass required CPR and blood born pathogen exams. Some cities here require an apprenticeship (I know Philly does, but not sure where else). Shops are inspected monthly and you must be examined by a doctor and confirm that you have no infectious diseases such as Hepatitis B. There are lots of requirements for the actual shops–how far the tables must be from the waiting area and there must be a barrier between the tables and waiting area, how large the shop floorspace is, types of floors, adequate and proper storage, the color of paint on the walls, types of materials the tables are made of. I’m not interested in ink, but I have a lot of friends who are tattoo artists or who are inked.
Gelfling 545
@OzarkHillbilly: Granddaughter: I don’t know that much about who’s running this year and wh I should vote for.
Me: vote for the ones with a D after their names. Take no chances.
Ruckus
@Major Major Major Major:
Let’s say you are a woman, you go into a salon with nice hair and expect a decent cut in a style that you saw on an actress in a movie. You tell the person doing the work and he/she totally screws up your hair, burns you head and hair with the chemicals and turns your hair 4 ugly colors, not because they’ve never seen the movie but because they are on their first day and have no training or practice and can’t read the colors on the bottles of dye. Oh and btw you are going to a fancy dinner tonight, because your husband just won a humanitarian award. You still think it’s OK not to require work training as well as safety training? Without it you’ve just provided a reason for murder. Depending on how bad it may be justified.
Now if a tat “artist” only has to take a 2 hr course, I’d say that’s wrong but all three of my tats are extremely small and hidden so I’m not one to judge.
rikyrah
@MisterForkbeard:
Does this bug anyone else? It’s not that Mueller won’t do anything near an election, it’s that Mueller won’t do anything relating to those running for election.
That’s how I see it too. Outside of anyone running for election in November 2018, all the rest are open for indictment.
tobie
I had an unexpectedly positive experience canvassing in Cecil County, Maryland this weekend. I was sent to a very rundown trailer park to knock on the doors of registered Democrats who didn’t vote in 2014 or 2016. I was expecting people to be unfriendly but everyone I spoke to was courteous and took the literature I offered, and several told me that Trump and his minions needed to be given the boot. Most assured me they would be voting Dem down the list. A few people were cynical about politics and said that all politicians are corrupt and don’t give a damn about them. I tried to tell them that they had a right to expect the government to work for them, but the slogan rang hollow, even for me. Don’t know how you turn around a neighborhood like this one. I felt like half the people I met were grandparents taking care of their children’s children.
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne:
yep
Gravenstone
@sharl:
This clown really wants natural selection on a large scale. But of course they expect all their medical tests to be 100% accurate and to never receive the wrong medication or dosage.
Mnemosyne
@geg6:
I think that California also has a braiding-only license that requires many fewer hours of training. The main concern was making sure the people knew that the license did not also allow them to do chemical straightening.
@Gin & Tonic:
It’s because the owner of a hair salon or spa has to have a cosmetology license. They are responsible for client safety at that facility and there are very specific requirements that the state has about disinfection practices, re-use of tools, etc. That’s not the case for an electrician or surgeon.
I suppose you could come up with a two-tiered system that allows people to say that they’re 100 percent sure that they’re never going to want to own their own salon, but I’m never in favor of anything with two tiers.
Gravenstone
@Gin & Tonic: Gov. Walker *spit* issued a state proclamation to lower the flags, in the glaring absence of the, you know presidential one.
schrodingers_cat
@James E Powell: I stopped watching the Sunday gabfests after Obama was elected and gave up cable TV after 2011. So I have no idea who their current favorite is.
Ben Sasse?
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: Sorry, are you saying that the state does *not* have specific requirements about disinfection practices and re-use of tools for *eye surgeons*?!
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: are there other fields where the state requires management training for all employees? Since you’re defending this one: should there be more?
ETA California has many sub-tiers of licensure in this area, for instance nails are around 500 hours.
Jeffro
McCain’s final statement sure slaps at the neo-Nazis and wall-wanters, doesn’t it? Hint hint (or should I say, tick tock) motherfucker.
Trumpov’s gonna go apeshit trying to make his narcissistic ‘case’ for being the awesomest president ever before the day is out. Not only did McCain get captured, but he betrayed the GOP by voting down Obamacare repeal, etc etc.
Keep jackassing it up, Donnie my man, just keep jackassing it up…
Betty Cracker
@prufrock: I think it’ll be a squeaker between Scott and Nelson but am hoping a blue wave puts Nelson over the top. Scott first won in a wave year by the tiniest of margins, so it’s only fitting that he should go out in another wave year. It sure would suck if he won. Having to look at that reptilian visage for another six years after the last eight doesn’t bear thinking about!
geg6
@Mnemosyne:
Because people who say this stuff have no idea what it takes to complete such training and what consequences of no training in these areas would be. These regulations came to be because there were severe outcomes from cosmeticians who didn’t have such training. The regulations are there because they were found to be needed.
I also believe that so many libertarians rag on the cosmetology training/licensing because it is a business most run by and for women. And who the hell cares what happens to women with their silly beauty rituals, amirite?
Gelfling 545
@Mnemosyne: Oh, it’s possible. Just ask NY 27’s frantic Republicans. I find I’m enjoying watching them pay the price for nominating a crook and a stupid one at that.
H.E.Wolf
@Mike J:
For folks in the King County (WA) region:
King County Bar Association (kcba.org) rates judicial candidates on their website. This one has been very useful in the past.
The Municipal League has detailed info on candidates, including answers to questionnaires, on their website (munileagueratings.org)
There’s also votingforjudges.org – scroll down for candidate ratings.
I’ve had middling results with the Progressive Voters Guide. Others’ mileage may vary.
geg6
@Gin & Tonic:
Here in PA, it is a part of the apprenticeship portion of the training. So many women, especially stay-at-home moms, run salons out of their basements.
NotMax
@James E Powell
Romney, beginning the day after Utah inflicts him upon us once again..
Ruckus
@Lapassionara:
This was the point I was trying to make on the weekend. Not that McCain was a great guy, but that he’s earned some minor level of respect for his position and his service. I’d expect no different for a democrat from the other side.
What I think of his politics no longer matters, he no longer has politics where he is.
I don’t want a country so divided that every thing, every detail is a bloodbath. Sure the left side of the aisle didn’t put us in this position but the morons on the right sure aren’t going to get us out of it either. If anyone is in any doubt about that, look at any day of the shitgibbon maladministration. Really any 5 minute period of it will suffice. We have to be the better party, we have to be the bigger people, the grownups. I’ve lived going on 70 yrs and damn it I want my 5 minutes of adulthood.
trollhattan
For once in my life I’m fully rooting for Roger Stone to be right.
He forgot to capitalize Crooked Special Council so he doesn’t get any money. “Mr. Stone, we have reviewed your funding request and because you failed to follow guidelines must reject it in totality.”
Jeffro
Even the US Secret Service is tweeting its respect and best wishes to McCain – WOW
(“Phoenix” was his Secret Service code name)
Oh boy…
H.E.Wolf
@TenguPhule:
Glad to see your ‘nym (and NotMax’s), after the bad weather out your way.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
Sure it does, and if the eye surgeon runs his own eye surgery clinic, then he or she has to follow all of the licensing regulations. But one hopes that the surgeon learned about the procedures for proper clinic sanitation in medical school, yes?
@Major Major Major Major:
Yes, there are many sub-tiers, and people can choose which tier they want to do. The full cosmetology license is the highest tier and it’s for people who are either working with dangerous chemicals or aspire to own their own salon someday, and often both.
Again, two years of training to learn how not to cause chemical burns and how not to spread communicable diseases doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.
Domestic short hair tabby (fka vheidi)
I am contemplating not voting for NY governor, Nixon not qualified and Cuomo’s a dick. Will of course vote and volunteer for down ticket folks. Thoughts?
Mnemosyne
@geg6:
This. The reason salons get inspected annually is that, despite all of this training, some people break the rules anyway. Saying that we should do away with the rules or weaken them because some people get caught not properly sanitizing their tools seems counterproductive, to say the least.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne:
But it’s not two years of training in that. It’s two-three years of training, some of which is in that. Under discussion is why the stuff that isn’t that should be state mandated.
Gin & Tonic
@geg6: And lots of plumbers and electricians run their business out of their (one) truck. I’m just trying to explore why Mnem thinks it’s a good thing that management/business administration training is part of the cosmetology licensing requirement, when it is not part of the occupational/professional licensing requirement for most other occupations.
Lapassionara
@TenguPhule: works for me.
@Ruckus: yes. I especially want whoever is POTUS to be a grown up.
Major Major Major Major
Currently using a straw in my workplace cafeteria btw.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
Yeah, the aftermath surpassed the math for most of the other islands.
So to speak. :)
Post Office must be working double time to catch up. Delivery here normally about 1 or 2 p.m. Truck came by at 8:25 this morning to finally drop off package with the cigar reorder (yay!).
HeleninEire
@satby: Life is CRAZY. Saw your FB post. Thank you, my friend. I sent Tim a PM. Turns out me and Tom have a mutual friend, Bryn, who I worked with in NY at NYU. Bryn has adopted 2 children out of the NYC Foster Care system. Curious if they know each other from there.
The world is sooooo fucking small.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: My bad! I misread it. Thanks.
FWIW, I totally missed yesterday’s mass shooting; didn’t know about it for hours later, and no one mentioned it at the doors.
JPL
@TenguPhule: Congrats! I glad to see you posting, and hopefully the storm passed you by.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: You can own and run an eye surgery clinic having had *zero* hours of education in how to own and run a business. Yet you are arguing that to own and run a cosmetology shop/salon, you should be required to have N hours of education in how to own and run a business, where N is substantially greater than zero. I don’t understand why the difference.
TenguPhule
@Ruckus:
And you’d be disappointed. They’re going to have drunken orgies on the other side when they can celebrate a Democrat dying in office (to make room for a Republican as Dog intended, of course!).
Ruckus
@Gin & Tonic:
The basic premise is that a lot of people in that field become contractors very early on. They have to know how to run a business because they may be right out of school or soon will be.
I’ll give an example from a completely different business, one I used to be in. Mold making. Production molds, made of metal to make plastic or metal pieces from molten raw materials.
I owned a business that did this, and btw way most people took ten yrs to become proficient at this. Some companies ran as a contract shop, the employees were all contractors, the shop owned the machines and provided the work. The contractor would give the designs to the contractor and they would quote a price and time. The shop would have given a price to the customer that allowed for a profit and overhead of the shop. But what if the contractor didn’t finish on time or ran out of contracted time or screwed up the work? Well ultimately the owner was at risk. That’s no different cosmetology. The big take away in both cases is that work ethic, work competence, knowledge is key to getting the work done in a proper manner, in a reasonable time and at a profitable and competitive rate.
The big question to me is, what other businesses are run in this manner and should they be better trained and licensed? And why aren’t they now?
Gin & Tonic
@Major Major Major Major: Monster!
TenguPhule
@JPL: It was nice to have at least one nice thing happen this year. The games were amazing to watch.
Major Major Major Major
@Ruckus:
That is indeed the question. If it’s just cosmetology, what makes cosmetology unique?
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: It might be because being a contractor is the standard practice in that field whereas the majority of plumbers, for example, start out as employees and only go out on their own when they are more experienced.
randy khan
McCain’s family has released his last statement. It’s hard not to read much of the end as a direct rebuke of the Administration.
Farewell
TenguPhule
@NotMax:
Tell me about it. I have two orders in transit from Rightstuf which have been pushed back a couple days and I need my fix soon.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Here, in all its glory–the Board of Barbering and Cosmetology.
Gravenstone
@Frankensteinbeck: If it touches on NAFTA, then Canada will certainly want their two cents worth added to the discussion as well.
JPL
@TenguPhule: They beat a team from the Atlanta area, and I did see some of that game. What an amazing team.
I went back and read the previous comments and glad you are okay.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Thread may be dead, but in answer to the question, I mostly rely on the League of Women Voters type websites. I don’t see a lot of political ads as I don’t see much TV. I get mailers of course. A local hardware store a couple elections ago was advertising their trash cans with “Holds 30 gallons of campaign literature!”
It was basically the week before our primary that I realized I had one heck of a lot of candidates to try to review. We’re in the newly un-gerrymandered PA-05 and we had 10 great candidates for the new congressional seat. So my wife and I crammed, mostly from the LWV website. The winner was Mary Gay Scanlon, I voted for Ashley Lunkenheimer but will be perfectly happy to see Scanlon win this seat.
TenguPhule
@JPL: It broke up and the remnants are now here. Nothing life threatening, just quality of life reducing.
geg6
@Gin & Tonic:
I don’t agree that it’s not a part of training for other trades/professions. It most certainly is a part of apprenticeships that aren’t through unions, such as in small private plumbing contractors. At least it is here. I know this because my ex is an administrator for the local vo-tech high school and his job is to get the students apprenticeships and coop jobs. If a student plans to work for the local iron workers or carpenters union, they generally don’t need that training. But the ones who plan to work in small business and are apprenticed at small businesses get that training because it is what they want to do. Also, every cosmetician is a sub-contractor, meaning they are all small business persons. Shop owners rent out chairs, not hire employees. The business training is due to that fact.
Jeffro
@randy khan: calling out “blood and soil”, calling for tearing down walls not building them…and I think there are at least 3 references to “our current difficulties” or the equivalent. I’m perplexed…who’s he referring to?
LOL
Trolling Trumpov SO hard…
TenguPhule
@JPL: The one against New York was awesome to watch. 10 to 0 shutout and mercy ruled. And a grand slam too.
burnspbesq
@PaulWartenberg:
The should have asked my mom.
TenguPhule
@JPL: Thanks for the well wishes.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: yes glad you’re okay!
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Thanks. To you and all the others I have missed here.
TenguPhule
And of course the next storm we have to keep an eye on is Miriam.
Gonna be a long hurricane season.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
@Major Major Major Major:
Actually, it turns out that I was wrong. There is NO business training requirement for a license — that’s something that community colleges throw in to get an associates’ degree from them.
Here’s a PDF of the list from the state of California with the actual requirements. Please let me know which one(s) you think aren’t needed. Sanitation? Anatomy and physiology? Training in each specific area of cosmetology?
https://www.barbercosmo.ca.gov/schools/curriculum_req_cosmo.pdf
NotMax
@TenguPhule
A now favorite tidbit from Lane came from a county official here.
Responding to reports of people taking sand from the beaches to use in sandbags, he said that yes, that is technically illegal, but understandable given the circumstances and he fully expected those people to return the sand to where they got it from after the storm.
Gravenstone
@trollhattan:
Way to grab onto that particular boat anchor with both hands there, Rodg!
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: looks good. I guess the colleges are gouging them. (And of course on top of what you linked you need eighty weeks of apprenticeship.)
TenguPhule
Air pollution causes ‘huge’ reduction in intelligence, study reveals
I am disturbed by the implications.
H.E.Wolf
@tobie:
Thank you for your canvassing work! Maybe some of the indifferent or cynical people who talked with you will eventually be more motivated to vote because of your words.
TenguPhule
@NotMax:
Batchi against those who don’t.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Oh, the for-profit colleges are definitely gouging people. I wouldn’t recommend that anyone go to one of them when there are community colleges that will teach you the same thing at WAY less cost.
Almost all for-profit “vocational” schools are a scam. G was looking into getting a specific medical coding certificate when he still worked at the Bad Place and it was at least three times more expensive to go to a for-profit school than a community college.
But that’s a different problem than the licensing issue.
Ruckus
@Gin & Tonic:
As a two time small business owner in CA I do understand the concepts that Menms is talking about. One of my businesses was a bicycle shop. I worked on bicycles that people took out and rode on public roads. No one asked if I was qualified to do that, if I had any idea which end of the wrench went where or how tight to make the axles or how to run a business so that I could have a chance of staying open. Should they have? I’d owned another business for 16 years and so had that experience but no one actually checked or knew even that. Some level of questioning maybe would have been nice, as it was I studied for about a year and took courses to insure that I had a chance of success. Someone 18 yrs old, fresh out of HS probably isn’t going to do that. And that’s the business model that line of work has. Young people that will work for less to get a foot in the door and quite possibly move on in 6 months to a year. Someone mentioned an electrician or a plumber. To do either of those one has to be hired or spend a fair amount of money to buy that van and tools to do the work. Most people are not going to be in a position to do that, they are going to be hired as a helper, move to qualified person and then start their own business. They’ve had time to see how it works, to be better informed, to discuss business with people. And the young people I know are going to school for a couple of years to learn a trade such as electrician. I work with a sharp young guy doing exactly that. He has no way to even get a job without it.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: fwiw I think the MLS requirement for a lot of librarian positions, without carveouts for relevant experience, are total BS—but those aren’t laws of course.
Boussinesque
So I live in Silicon Valley, and my district is represented by Ro Kanna. I actually did some door knocking for him back in 2016, when he first got elected. I kind of cooled on him when I couldn’t get a straight answer from his communications guy on one aspect of his higher education position—some of the stuff regarding graduate school sounded more like a way to socialize the costs of R&D by giving companies more of a day in the graduate programs at state schools, while privatizing the profits from any results that research might yield. I’m still getting fundraising emails from him for various other “progressive” candidates around the country, and he may have thrown in with those “Justice Democrats” as well, if I’m remembering correctly. He also hammers how he doesn’t take PAC money and occasionally rails about the “entrenched interests” in the Democratic Party (a try least in these emails). So my question is this—what’s the best way to communicate to him that, while I see campaign finance reform as important too, I’d really prefer to see him go after/call out the actual existential threat to our republic, rather than attempting to further burnish his “progressive cred” by attacking people on our own side? Letter? Call his office? Hit his Facebook page (and likely get jumped on by Berner trolls)?
jeffreyw
Per the “where to find voter info” question, I wonder if there is an unserved market niche waiting to be filled. Click on a candidate name and get to a curated list of links as to their positions, or at least those that they think important enough to mention. And I mean curated list of links, not just a Google search. Maybe this is best a national party task, collating input for state and local candidates.
If there is already just such a thing, feel free to “duh” me. I’m married a long time and can take it.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: I have no issue with cosmetology training for a prospective cosmetologist. My only issue was with the idea of business training.
Chyron HR
@randy khan:
AKA “The one who was smart enough to back the patriot, not the traitor.”
Boussinesque
Ugh, sorry for the typos—phone autocorrect. “Say”, not “day”, and “at” instead of “a try”.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
IIRC, “apprenticeship” for a hairdresser with a cosmetology license usually means working at a place like Supercuts or Fantastic Sam’s, or doing scut work at a big salon (like mixing the chemicals and assisting the hairdressers). There shouldn’t be an unpaid apprenticeship for any trade that I know of.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
Yeah, I ended up conflating the state licensing requirements and the coursework that a community college usually offers for an associate’s degree. My bad.
efgoldman
For the first time in my life I’m voting absentee this year.
Got a mailer today from sitting congresscritter. Curious, because this isn’t his district.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I wasn’t assuming it was unpaid, just saying that what you linked is (timewise) only a third of what the state requires.
Cheryl from Maryland
Primaries in MoCo, Maryland are important as most local offices are entirely D, with hardly any Rs running. Local newsprint paper was folded by WaPo (thanks Jeff Bezos). It used to send out a questionnaire to all the candidates and printed their answers. So useful — I would pick up buzz words (like if a School Board Candidate said “Parental Choice) to help my decision. I can still get that information, but it takes two on-line newspapers and a local blog to get the same information.
rikyrah
From Charles Blow:
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s apparently a big topic on ALA Thinktank right now, if you hang out on ALA’s website.
Personally, I would hate to see librarian positions go the way of professorships and have everything except at the very top be done by paraprofessionals since they’re a lot cheaper to hire. But that’s just me.
Ruckus
@Major Major Major Major:
Well Menms and I have answered that but again part of it is the somewhat unique way those businesses are run, the age of a lot of the first time employees and if nothing else experience with the business when the licensing and training wasn’t this specific. Most of our laws, especially at a state/local level are responsively written and come from a prior, less than successful period of either badly written, badly limiting or no law at all. Almost none of our laws are about preventing behavior but about punishment after the fact. And often the ones written in the hope of preventing behavior seldom do. That’s why we need gun laws, capital crimes have been against the law for ever and yet that rarely stops most murders. We have to regulate the tools to fix the problem. And in this case the tools include the people doing the work.
sharl
Some weirdness going on in Michigan: Flood Of FOIAs Is A Michigan Mystery: Someone wants copies of each ballot cast in 2016 prez contest
County clerks have speculated that this could be an action to disrupt the 2018 election preparations, or maybe even part of a (nonpolitical) effort to assist an identity theft operation. Whatever it is, something to maybe watch for in other states in 2020 (if not 2018).
TenguPhule
Betsy DeVos considers allowing schools to use federal funds to buy guns
wut.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s the curriculum requirements, direct from the state’s website. The apprenticeship is about a year and a half working at Supercuts or a similar place. What’s the third part that I’m missing, other than taking the licensing exam?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne:
Yes, much better to make everybod non-credentialed person in the industry who wants the job just above them on the ladder go into debt for a degree that won’t teach them anything they haven’t picked up in their years of working for a library.
ETA as was the case for several of my friends. They got the job but learned nothing of use to it.
zhena gogolia
Might have to cancel my New Yorker subscription — they’re fluffing Greenwald. Remnick, what do you mean “Russia obsession”? Don’t you know any better?
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/09/03/glenn-greenwald-the-bane-of-their-resistance
jl
@Boussinesque: Write him a paper letter, and if you have time, go to his office.
I have more sympathy than you with going after corruption and big money in politics. It seems to register with a lot of persuadable voters who think both parties are corrupt. But OTOH, his is in a safe blue district, so can and should spend time on other issues. Election and voter roll integrity is a very important issue, for example and messing with that is a threat to the country.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: the apprenticeship is for twice as many hours as the classes
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Surveying is a profession that requires business classes for an associate’s degree, which is a requirement for sitting for the licensing exam.
schrodingers_cat
This explains the evangelicals and their R leadership succinctly:
They had come to shutdown the brothels of dancing girls
But hearing the clatter of coin, they started dancing themselves
(Translated from Mirza Galib’s Urdu couplet)
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: Brain bleach warning!
randy khan
@NotMax:
In Hawaii, I believe that.
Major Major Major Major
@zhena gogolia: I saw that! Pissed me off.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Have you talked to an adjunct professor lately? What companies (and cities, and universities) say they’re going to do when they create paraprofessional positions and what actually happens are usually two very different things. The paraprofessionals will be paid less than the MLIS folks were, and MLIS jobs will magically go missing because a paraprofessional has the experience to do it cheaper. A lot of the paraprofessionals at G’s library only have a high school diploma, but they do have on the job experience.
Better to make it more similar to the professional track for an MBA where you can have your experience applied towards the advanced degree than to remove the degree and let employers reduce the salary accordingly. After all, if someone with a high school diploma can do the job with the proper training, why offer a master’s degree at all? ?
TenguPhule
Is it me or are we experiencing what we used to call a slow news day?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I was just saying (and during grad school found nobody who disagreed, including faculty) that there are too many positions requiring an MLS. Not that we shouldn’t have them. Just that they should only be required for positions that actually require them.
ETA as an example. my best friend’s mom had to retire early because they wouldn’t offer her the position she’d basically had for 40 years, due to lack of a degree.
zhena gogolia
@randy khan:
Wow.
Pretty pointed.
trollhattan
@TenguPhule:
Everybody’s busy with Infrastructure Week.
sdhays
@zhena gogolia: I think we can conclude that Cindy McCain will not be the next Senator from Arizona…
trollhattan
@zhena gogolia:
Ginormous LGM thread going about it ATM. In my view the article begins in a giant self-dug hole by framing him as a liberal disturbed by doctrinaire Democrats and their policies. Yeah, he’s liberal like my dog is a sous chef.
TriassicSands
@Betty Cracker:
Yep, that sounds like our man.
Jeffro
TRUMPOV CAVES, signs proclamation ordering flags to half-mast until McCain’s burial.
Eat it, you orange creep…you can’t even backslap a dead man without fucking up
JPL
@sdhays: The Governor is friends with the McCain’s, but I heard she did not like Washington.
It would be funny if he appointed Flake.
schrodingers_cat
@JMG: @FlyingToaster: According to my local D organizer Zakim is problematic on Israel-Palestine issues. So she recommends Galvin since he is a known quantity.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
A medical doctor’s post-license apprenticeship is a minimum of 144 weeks, and can be up to 240 weeks. Too much?
Mnemosyne
@randy khan:
IIRC, in Hawaii, Pele will come after you if you don’t return her sand, so there’s a pretty good enforcement system in place. ?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: medical doctors are, of course, medical doctors. A California phlebotomist requires 40 hours of classes and 40 hours of in-clinic training (apprenticeship, for our discussion). And then they can stick needles in you.
sdhays
@JPL: He’s up for reelection and running behind the Democrats at the moment. I don’t see him crossing Trumpov and potentially alienating his voters. But I’d love to be wrong. I see Cindy as the wild-card who could actually sink Kavanaugh. Not that I expect she would, just that she is the likeliest out of the people mentioned as being appointed.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Not to be overly cynical, but it sounds like they wanted to be able to hire someone younger (and cheaper) than your friend’s mom, and they used the degree as an excuse. It sucks, but I think it’s a slightly different issue.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: No, it had been an ongoing conflict at her library for years. Eventually they just got priced out of the area.
efgoldman
Approaching the T Boggularrity!
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
If a rat could do it….
rikyrah
Report Confirms Trump Involvement In Moving FBI; Inspector General Confirms Trump’s Involvement in FBI Headquarters Project Across From His Hotel
August 27, 2018 at 2:51 pm EDT
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@schrodingers_cat: Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
All conspiracies are true in this era.
cain
@zhena gogolia:
Speaking of Greenwald, I saw on twitter that he interviewed Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and they both spent time blaming the Democrats for electing Trump. You know, it’s really fucking sad that AOC is going on air assholes like Greenwald. It just destroys her credibility. Also, shouldn’t she be spending time campaigning in New York? She’s only got two months or so before the election.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Sure, but can your phlebotomist give you a vaccination (ie add something to you rather than removing it)? IIRC, nope — that requires additional training and certification.
Same with cosmetology — if all you want to do is nails, you don’t have to get the full cosmetologist license, just the nail technician license. But you still have to learn how not to give your clients a nasty, hard-to-treat nail fungus.
Ruckus
@cain:
Wanna bet her aspirations are not what her election website says?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I’m sure we can both agree that tattoo artist certification should look more like phlebotomy certification though.
I met a really cool phlebotomist once on my way to the neurology clinic, story for another time.
schrodingers_cat
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Thanks! I am not sure whether I did full justice to it. Mirza Galib’s couplet in original Urdu is a thing of beauty.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m still sensing an asshole boss or administrator at the bottom of that story, but I don’t know enough about it. In my workplace experience, sorry, there’s nothing we can do usually means someone decided to be an asshole on a power trip.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Being a dick about credentialism is a form of being an asshole on a power trip. And this is not an isolated case, just an example I know pretty well. I met all sorts of people with similar stories in grad school, difference being they could afford grad school.
Yarrow
@cain:
Well, that depends what her goals are and with whom she wants credibility. Perhaps her goals are different than just being a good representative for her district. Perhaps she wants credibility with people other than voters in her district.
Judge her by her actions. She went around the country campaigning for candidates with St. Bernard and now she’s doing interviews with GG. It seems she’s being rather clear about who she is.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I have to admit, I’m a little horrified by how little training tattoo artists have to get. Now I’m glad I chickened out of getting one.
A good phlebotomist is the difference between feeling a little pinch and going home with a huge bruise on your arm, so I definitely appreciate the good ones when I meet them. The ones for blood donation at the Red Cross are really good because they do it all day long.
A Ghost To Most
@cain: For someone that hasn’t won an election, AOC sure has a lot to say about those who have.
Just another BernieBro.
satby
@HeleninEire: Hope Tom can help. I had missed the part that said the children have an aunt here, and no idea if the kids are Irish citizens. But he’s a good guy to know for these things, and a good guy in general.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Well, if we want to talk about how grown adults get screwed out of career advancement because the barriers (including cost) to getting an advanced degree are too damn high, then I think we’ll be agreeing a lot. G and I were very lucky that we had enough of an inheritance after each of our fathers died that we could swing the tuition at SJSU and for him to work part-time to get library experience. We also didn’t have a mortgage or kids. Most adults trying to get another degree aren’t nearly as lucky, and it’s one of the reasons they end up overpaying a for-profit school to get the accreditations they need.
I think it’s better to make it easier and cheaper for people to get accredited than it is to do away with accreditation.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I wasn’t saying get rid of it, I was saying it’s known within the industry that the requirement is applied to things it shouldn’t be applied to.
Gin & Tonic
@cain:
NY-14 went to HRC by a 57-point margin in 2016. I think that’s what you might call a safe-D district.
tobie
@cain: I saw a bumper sticker yesterday, parked outside the local Democratic Party election headquarters, with the statement, “Don’t blame me, I voted for Bernie.” It’s been interesting to see inner-party or left-contra-left squabbles at a local level. For some reason the Bernie/Progressive Caucus endorsed a rather conservative fellow to be the Democratic candidate for Congress in Maryland’s first district, and he won. They’ve claimed ownership of the canvassing effort for the candidate, and no one in the Democratic Club is complaining, but it turns out that the Progressive Caucus doesn’t want to pass out literature for any other Democratic candidate in the state, including the Bernie-endorsed candidate for Governor, Ben Jealous. I don’t get this.
Felanius Kootea
@Mnemosyne: I wear my hair natural/unprocessed in locs and I do remember locticians and hair braiders in California years ago protesting that they had to go through certification on how to handle chemicals for relaxers and perms when their focus was on natural, unprocessed hair. Some didn’t want to put in the hours for training on perms, etc., for reasons to do with both health and personal beliefs (people who refer to relaxers as “creamy crack” are not interested in learning how to relax anyone’s hair). I do believe they won some exemption or different designation.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Companies love to require degrees and accreditations. It keeps them from having to actually decide who’s best for the job. ?
Mnemosyne
@Felanius Kootea:
I used to be friends with my AA roommate’s hairdresser (I would watch the hairdresser’s daughter while she did my roommate’s hair, because she was a cool kid) and I remember that first coming up in the early 90s. I think there was a genuine misunderstanding between braiders and the state — the state was afraid that it was a backdoor way for people to start doing unlicensed chemical processes, while most of the braiders didn’t want anything to do with chemicals. I think they eventually got it straightened out (no pun intended!) and now you don’t need a license in CA if all you do is locs or braids. If you want to actually cut people’s hair, you still need a license.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
I get poked regularly, like normally quarterly. Except now when my primary retired and hasn’t been replaced. There are good, decent and horrible blood draws and IV sticks. Oh yeah, I’ve had a bunch of IV sticks in the last few years as well. I no longer let them IV stick me in the back of the hand. I once had 3 IV sticks going at one time. That was fun.
Chyron HR
@tobie:
“In the primary or the general election?”
“DIE NEOLIBERAL SHILL REEEEEEEE!”
Ruckus
@tobie:
Did they also offer to hold their breath till they turn blue, have to be sent to their rooms for not eating their veg and stomp their widdle feet till they got what they wanted?
Because they sound just like their chosen one, a person who both has the initials and the political product known as BS.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: well, not in the egalitarian world of tech! Here we just make you do high-pressure parlor tricks, and then only hire white men who play the right video games anyway, because of “culture fit.”
tobie
@Chyron HR: @Ruckus: Yeah, I’ve been thinking of the BS initials, too. Don’t know if these people even realize the irony of relying on Democratic club members to go out canvassing and yet to shit on the party every chance they get. So many choices feel binary today–the unreason of Trump vs. the reason of the Democrats, and the unreason of Bernistas vs. the reason of the Democrats. I recently listened again to Hillary Clinton’s interview with Judy Woodruff from November 2017. Anyone who is taken with the motto Medicare 4 All should listen to that interview. Clinton knows the issues surrounding the financing and delivery of healthcare better than anyone and she pretty clearly explains why Medicare4All or Improved and Expanded Medicare 4 All is nothing but a slogan.
Fair Economist
@randy khan: That last statement of McCain’s was very good. RIP
J R in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
wait, whut? Why are we hating on straws again? too skinny to recycle? That seems weird… Not that I’m in favor of plastic getting loose, but straws? They seem so…. innocuous to me… but I was wrong once before, long ago….
sgrAstar
@Mnemosyne: what mnem said! I looked up the CA licensure reqs for cosmetologists- they’re very focused on health and safety. Nail care, skin care services (facials, exfoliation, etc), waxing…all of these + more carry serious potential for infection. I am fine with this profession requiring the equivalent of an AA degree…and I haven’t even mentioned hair styling, another service which carries risk for the client. Caveat emptor…not the motto I want for my hairstylist, or any other personal care provider.
cain
@burnspbesq:
or you could have asked her! :D :P