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You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Scenes from an Italian restaurant

Scenes from an Italian restaurant

by DougJ|  September 6, 201810:18 am| 209 Comments

This post is in: C.R.E.A.M.

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The candidate I support in the 2020 Democratic primary has to be the kind of person who can pull the gun out from behind the toilet and come out blazing. Or at least come back from the bathroom, blank out for a few minutes, and then start blazing. I can settle for that.

Before yesterday, the only candidate on that list for me was Gillibrand, but now Kamela Harris is on it too:

Nearly 12 hours into Brett Kavanaugh’s Senate confirmation hearing, Kamala Harris opened with a tantalizing query: Has the Supreme Court nominee ever discussed Robert Mueller’s probe with a lawyer at Kasowitz Benson & Torres, President Donald Trump’s longtime law firm?

“Be sure about your answer, sir,” Harris asked Kavanaugh. Trump’s high court pick appeared nonplussed, responding that “I’m not sure I know everyone who works at that law firm,” but the California Democrat – a veteran prosecutor known for her tenacious questioning and high on her party’s 2020 presidential short lists — would not let up.

“How can you not remember whether you’ve had a conversation about Robert Mueller or his investigation with anyone at that law firm?” Harris asked, suggesting that Kavanaugh was “thinking of someone and you don’t want to tell us.”

I hate to go here a little bit but I generally find that a lot of Democratic women in Congress are Michaels while too many of the men are Fredos. Let’s put two more women in the Senate: Jacky Rosen (NV) and Krysten Sinema (AZ).

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209Comments

  1. 1.

    James E Powell

    September 6, 2018 at 10:21 am

    Too many of the Democratic men are Tom Hagen. LBJ had Genco and look what we got!

  2. 2.

    Doug!

    September 6, 2018 at 10:22 am

    @James E Powell:

    You know…Hagen does greenlight killing Sterling Hayden and the Turk.

  3. 3.

    oclday

    September 6, 2018 at 10:25 am

    Yeah well just imagine what Franken would have done to him. As a Minnesota voter I HATE Gillebrand and think she couldn’t stick to a position with the aide of super glue.

  4. 4.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 10:25 am

    Newest news: There’s an email in which Kavanaugh told someone Roe is not necessarily settled law.

    Pondering what excuse Susan Collins will use now.

  5. 5.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 10:27 am

    I hate to go here a little bit but I generally find that a lot of Democratic women in Congress are Michaels while too many of the men are Fredos.

    I love the analogy.

  6. 6.

    oatler.

    September 6, 2018 at 10:28 am

    Booker’s going nuclear and Grassley’s colicky.
    And I thought the “1776” musical was over the top!

  7. 7.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 10:29 am

    Gillebrand lost me when she led the circular firing squad that took out Al Franken.

    God, I’d love to have seen him on the Judiciary Committee this week.

  8. 8.

    catclub

    September 6, 2018 at 10:29 am

    @randy khan:

    Pondering what excuse Susan Collins will use now.

    The Slate article saying ‘Collins is risking voter backlash if she votes to confirm Kavanaugh’ … yeah, right. She is not up for re-election this year, and voters have pretty short memories. Also, she might stop running for Senate and run for governor. So I think she will find an excuse with no problem.

  9. 9.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 10:30 am

    @randy khan: Kavanaugh specifically said that as a Judge he had to respect precedent.

    Of course, he said nothing about how he would regard precedent once he’s a Justice.

  10. 10.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 10:31 am

    @oclday: Beat me to it … my thoughts exactly.

  11. 11.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 10:31 am

    @randy khan: Collins (and LePage) make me very, very pleased I no longer am a Mainer. I do, though, really like Portland.

  12. 12.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 6, 2018 at 10:31 am

    @oatler.: Young black boys are monsters, but grown malevolent nasty old men of the R party are toddlers, I love how white privilege operates.

    Not criticizing you but wondering out loud how we unconsciously use language.

  13. 13.

    Belafon

    September 6, 2018 at 10:34 am

    @balconesfault: “Considering, Mr. Kavanaugh, that the Supreme Court has occasionally overruled it’s own precedent, why should we accept ‘precedent’ as your answer to any question?”

  14. 14.

    Bruuuuce

    September 6, 2018 at 10:34 am

    I was thinking about the way the GOP has gone about this confirmation, and finally realized why it looked familiar. I would swear I’m watching that scene in The Court Jester where the illegitimate king decides to knight Danny Kaye on his sleazy advisor’s suggestion, and he gets rushed through several years’ worth of tests in one day, with every possible cheat and hurry applied so that “the candidate passes”. McConnell certainly has done his best to ensure that same headlong rush so that El Jefe has cover in the next SCOTUS term (and he may need it himself later). Too bad we can’t count on the same results, turning the tables.

    In case you’ve forgotten the scene, here it is.

  15. 15.

    Mr. Kite

    September 6, 2018 at 10:35 am

    @oclday: Gillibrand did not cause Franken’s problems.

  16. 16.

    Nicole

    September 6, 2018 at 10:36 am

    @oclday: Gillebrand has always been very aggressive in going after sexual harassment. If anything, her stance on Franken was demonstrating consistency.

    Funny how what, 40 Dems supported his resignation but she’s the only one who gets blamed.

  17. 17.

    Amir Khalid

    September 6, 2018 at 10:40 am

    Please, guys: wait to see who is actually running in 2020 before you pick a favourite/most likely candidate.

  18. 18.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 6, 2018 at 10:40 am

    @Haroldo: Portland is good, but Bar Harbor and Acadia are great! Whatever happened to Maine? How did the entire state go so cray cray.

  19. 19.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 6, 2018 at 10:41 am

    @Amir Khalid: Any talk of 2020 is premature.

  20. 20.

    Doug!

    September 6, 2018 at 10:41 am

    @Nicole:

    It was the smart move, but maybe she ends up like Tessio after his smart move, in terms of the 2020 primary.

  21. 21.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 10:44 am

    @Nicole: Yep. I don’t know whom I’ll support in the 2020 primary and am happy to mostly put off thinking about that until next year. But Gillibrand is definitely the heir of Hillary Clinton Derangement Syndrome, with the same vector (sexism) driving the disease.

  22. 22.

    Percysowner

    September 6, 2018 at 10:44 am

    Unlike a certain NY Times op-ed writer Judiciary Dems Say They’ll Risk Punishment To Release Withheld Kavanaugh Doc We may still get Kavanaugh as a Supreme, but I’ll give the Democrats props for pulling out the stops.

  23. 23.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    September 6, 2018 at 10:47 am

    @Nicole: Yes, but KG could have jumped into a time machine, journeyed back to the past and forced Franken to not be creepy to 9 women (that we know of.). But she…didn’t…even…try… /sarcasm

  24. 24.

    rp

    September 6, 2018 at 10:50 am

    @Uncle Ebeneezer: There’s almost no real evidence that he was creepy to any women, just a staged photo in which he obviously wasn’t touching what’shername. That said, it’s a little silly to attack Gillebrand over this.

  25. 25.

    bemused

    September 6, 2018 at 10:56 am

    I dearly wish I could be watching Al Franken at these hearings.

  26. 26.

    oclday

    September 6, 2018 at 10:56 am

    @Mr. Kite: No, of course not but she decided to take out potent potential presidential competition early, stated basically can’t or won’t see shades of gray and wouldn’t let the ethics committee do its work, all the while sitting silent while Mendez is very likely corrupt and gets awards. Besides the fact that many of Franken’s accusers were suspect.

  27. 27.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 10:57 am

    Judge Orders Independent Off Congressional Ballot In Signature Forgeries Case

  28. 28.

    Gelfling 545

    September 6, 2018 at 10:58 am

    @Nicole: And no one could have forced his resignation. It was felt by more than a single individual to be necessary. I did not agree with it ( withour an investigation – process is important) but I understand it and it wasn’t Gillibrand showing him the door.

  29. 29.

    evodevo

    September 6, 2018 at 10:59 am

    @rp: Yes. Sorry, but I support Al. I still think all that was premature circular firing squad..unless there was something we didn’t know lurking back there that only Franken knows about, there was nothing in the public record that I would consider resignation-worthy. And I say that as a woman who has been ACTUALLY harassed in the past.

  30. 30.

    oclday

    September 6, 2018 at 11:00 am

    @Nicole: Ah, yes consistent, like accepting help from Bill Clinton to win her seat then throwing him under the bus too. Her goal was to remove competition and she succeeded.

  31. 31.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 6, 2018 at 11:01 am

    Cory Booker is bringing it at the hearings. Cornyn can fuck the fucking fuck off.

  32. 32.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 11:02 am

    From TPM:

    “I come from a long line, as of all us do as Americans, of understanding of what that kind of civil disobedience is and I understand the consequences, so I am, before your process is finished, I’m going to release the email about racial profiling,” Booker said. “And I understand that the penalty comes with potential ousting from the Senate.”

    Cornyn pushed back on Booker’s promise to release the email.

    “Running for president is no excuse” for violating the rules, Cornyn said.

    Grassley defended his document production process and said it was similar to how other Supreme Court nominees’ materials were handled. Democrats on the committee argued that in the past, those processes had been hammered out in a bipartisan agreement, and that, this time, they had not agreed to how the documents are being withheld.

    Other Democrats jumped in to express their support for Booker’s moves to release the committee’s confidential docs.

    “If there’s going to be some retribution against the senator of New Jersey, count me in,” Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) said. Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-HI) too said she’d release documents to the press and would let the public decide whether it should have been confidential.

    “All of us are ready to face that rule of the bogus designation of committee confidential,” Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) said.

  33. 33.

    Gelfling 545

    September 6, 2018 at 11:02 am

    @oclday: Surely it was Franken’s own decision to resign. No one could have forced him short of the ethics investigation.

  34. 34.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 11:02 am

    @Betty Cracker: Sorry – you couldn’t find a more hardcore Hillary supporter than myself through the 2016 election cycle. It’s unfair to link the two … completely different issues.

  35. 35.

    MomSense

    September 6, 2018 at 11:04 am

    @randy khan:

    Settled lawmwas always a bullshit excuse and Susan Collins knows it. She could have asked if he thought it was correct law but she didn’t want to know the answer. She will always choose what is best for the wealthy and corporations over everyone else.

  36. 36.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 6, 2018 at 11:04 am

    @Nicole: It’s because the MSM made her the focus of the Franken backlash.

  37. 37.

    patrick II

    September 6, 2018 at 11:05 am

    @randy khan:

    Somebody finally had the balls. Corey Booker has released some of the emails and dared the republicans to punish him. About fcking time.

  38. 38.

    RedDirtGirl

    September 6, 2018 at 11:08 am

    @schrodingers_cat: I just spent a week at our summer place near Acadia. Why yes, I am a WASP, why do you ask?

  39. 39.

    Bruce K

    September 6, 2018 at 11:09 am

    Booker released some documents.

    Is it me, or is following the news this week just goddamned exhausting?

  40. 40.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 11:09 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: No – it’s because she’s the first one who came out and called publicly for Franken to resign. And let’s face it – being a male Democratic Senator and pushing back against Gillibrand at the time would have been potentially suicidal, especially at the time. She lined up the firing squad very effectively.

  41. 41.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    September 6, 2018 at 11:10 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I watched the replay. Booker wasn’t having any of it. It’s a good look.

  42. 42.

    Calouste

    September 6, 2018 at 11:11 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Expulsion from the Senate needs a 2/3 majority IIRC. I doubt Grassley is able to win over 16 Democrats on this topic.

    Good to see the Democrats playing hardball.

  43. 43.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 11:11 am

    @balconesfault: Sorry, the “amoral harpy who cares only for power” parallels are too numerous to ignore. I’m sure there are people who had non-sexist reasons to oppose Clinton too, but sexism played a huge role in her vilification, and I see the same thing happening with Gillibrand.

  44. 44.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:12 am

    @evodevo: I’m with you. I am still disgusted with the public summary execution of Al Franken’s political career.

    If he was skeeving on his Senate colleagues, they need to have made that clear. They did not, and the whole thing looked like a rush to judgment on some photos that were not what they seemed to be. And never forget that skeevy Atlantic Monthly piece. After Roger Stone had predicted Franken’s time in the barrel was coming up.

    I would LOVE to see Al Franken questioning Kavanaugh.

    Cowardice is the name for what the Democratic senators did, led by Kirsten Gillibrand. (And, sadly, Kamala Harris. And Marie Hirono. Although Harris seems to have a lot more to her than Gillibrand does.)

    Franken should have gotten his ethics inquiry. Only a stupid fool would put Franken and Roy Moore, or any of the GOP predators, in the same class.

  45. 45.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:14 am

    @balconesfault: As far as I’m concerned, the firing squad hit Gillibrand harder. She railroaded the situation. I will never trust her judgment.

  46. 46.

    bemused

    September 6, 2018 at 11:14 am

    @The Ancient Randonneur:

    It certainly is. This is how I want Dems to operate with low down snakes.

  47. 47.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 11:16 am

    @schrodingers_cat: Maine has always had an ‘independent’ streak (which can be manipulated) and a fair number of rednecks. Collins is a Republican hack in an ‘independent’s’ clothing. LePage is a result of vanity candidates splitting the progressive vote, if memory serves. He’s a vile, vile man appealing to the same primordial lizard brain as Trump.

  48. 48.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:16 am

    @Gelfling 545: He was so ganged up on, I think Franken did not feel he had a choice.

    I wish he had stood and fought.

    The Democrats made me cringe on this situation, and it’s the only time I have been ashamed to be one. I am serious. I hated it at the time, and it still hurts, months out.

  49. 49.

    tobie

    September 6, 2018 at 11:17 am

    @Calouste: Interesting piece of information. No way McConnell gets 16 Democrats to vote to expel Booker. Well-played, Cory.

  50. 50.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 6, 2018 at 11:17 am

    Jesus Fucking Christ! Are you really doing the Gillbrand-Franken thing again?

  51. 51.

    Gelfling 545

    September 6, 2018 at 11:17 am

    @Betty Cracker: Well said.

  52. 52.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 11:18 am

    @Calouste:

    Article I, Section 5, of the United States Constitution provides that “Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member.” Since 1789, the Senate has expelled only fifteen of its entire membership.

    My suspicion is that the repubs might try to fuck with their committee assignments but as I understand it those come from party leadership, so I am unsure how far they can get with that.

    Good to see the Democrats playing hardball.

    Indeed.

  53. 53.

    Cheryl from Maryland

    September 6, 2018 at 11:19 am

    @rp: No, there were seven other women, some of them constituents and Democrats. Not just LeeAnn Tweeden.. And not all of them in the far past. As much as I admire Mr. Franken’s work as a Senator, I feel he would have been a drag on the party, and the 40 Senators who called for his resignation did the correct thing.

  54. 54.

    Nicole

    September 6, 2018 at 11:20 am

    List of those senators who called for resignation so people can loudly declare who they’ll NEVER vote for:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/full-list-senators-call-for-al-franken-to-resign-282175

  55. 55.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 6, 2018 at 11:22 am

    I think Gillbrand and Hirono jumped a step by calling for Franken to step down instead of calling for an ethics investigation, but the idea that her commitment to issues of harassment and assault is political convenience is absurd.
    And it was due in no small part to the fact that Nancy Pelosi– who I think is brilliant and people calling for her to step down are stupid– prepared the ground for it by making such a hash of the allegations against John Conyers

  56. 56.

    Nicole

    September 6, 2018 at 11:23 am

    @Doug!: I fear Dems are too scared to nominate another woman. Commenters on this very site have expressed reservations about it.

    I feel these days that I will never see a woman President. And that crushes me.

  57. 57.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:23 am

    My problem with Gillibrand is that she made a point to get out on stage and call for Franken to go before the committee to investigate him had even formed. It was based, IMO, on nothing more than cold political calculation. Franken was a distraction and a talking point for the GOP scumbags to hammer over and over again, and it looked like Stone and his stable of ratfuckers had an endless supply of women willing to come forward and accuse Franken of something. (Let us never forget that for one of his accusers Franken committed sexual assault by putting his arm around her and squeezing her waist during a photo op that she requested.) You’ll note that there have been no new reports of misconduct.

    So I understand why she did it. It shut down the right wing screamers (on that topic), and it made her look good (for some people). I’m certainly never going to forget that she did it, and hope for her sake that her history is utterly spotless on every single front, because once she declares for higher office, she’s going to be on the receiving end of the same sort of fuckery. I will also support her if she’s the nominee for president, but otherwise she gets nothing from me.

  58. 58.

    B.B.A.

    September 6, 2018 at 11:24 am

    Harris and Booker weren’t on the Judiciary Committee until Franken’s resignation led to a reshuffle. I’d say Gillibrand’s decision is looking pretty good right now.

    What the hell would Franken do that they aren’t doing, besides grabbing Zina Bash’s butt? (What a strange fetish, groping Republican women. I was certain there’d be another shoe to drop. But there hasn’t been, and I can’t look a woman in the eye and tell her she’s lying.)

  59. 59.

    MobiusKlein

    September 6, 2018 at 11:26 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yes.
    Next up, Clinton / Bernie rehash – round 3::: FIGHT!

  60. 60.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:26 am

    @evodevo:

    By the time Gillibrand and most of her Democratic colleagues called on Franken to resign, there were 8 distinct complaints about him, and it had just been three weeks. He was going one way or another. Blaming her for it is wrong. If anything, she showed that she understood that they had to stop the bleeding (but, again, along with all of the other Democratic women in the Senate and most of their male colleagues).

  61. 61.

    Felanius Kootea

    September 6, 2018 at 11:26 am

    Kamala, not Kamela ;)

  62. 62.

    Amir Khalid

    September 6, 2018 at 11:27 am

    @Elizabelle:
    The failure that led to Al Franken’s resignation was not Gillibrand’s alone. It was the Democratic Senate Caucus as a group that failed to insist on investigative process before denouncing Franken.

  63. 63.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:27 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: As one of his constituents I remain upset and still have things to say. So yes.

  64. 64.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:29 am

    @randy khan: Well, it certainly showed the republicans that the tactic worked and they could accuse anyone of anything because no one would actually investigate it.

  65. 65.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 11:29 am

    @Nicole:

    I fear Dems are too scared to nominate another woman.

    I’m not. Another Clinton? Well….

  66. 66.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:30 am

    @Amir Khalid: Thank you, Amir, for being a breath of sanity.

    @Nicole: Oh stuff it. It makes a big difference who got the train rolling down the wrong track.

  67. 67.

    geg6

    September 6, 2018 at 11:30 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    True. But I can guarantee you that the one I finally decide to support won’t be Kristen Gillibrand. I didn’t like her much and definitely didn’t trust her before the whole Franken thing. She hasn’t gotten any more likeable and I trust her even less.

    I’m open pretty much to anyone who isn’t Bernie or her.

  68. 68.

    Steve in the ATL

    September 6, 2018 at 11:30 am

    @Nicole:

    I feel these days that I will never see a woman President. And that crushes me.

    I feel you, but I think it will happen fairly soon. It was considered *insane* when we put Geraldine Ferraro on the ticket as VP, but we just got Hillary Clinton winning a large majority of the popular vote and may have won the electoral vote as well.

    And Obama? Who saw that coming?!

  69. 69.

    B.B.A.

    September 6, 2018 at 11:30 am

    @oclday: Monica Lewinsky should speak at the 2020 Democratic Convention. I don’t think the olds appreciate how fucked up Bill’s behavior looks to the youngs.

  70. 70.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    September 6, 2018 at 11:31 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m looking forward to the pineapple on pizza debate. THEN the shit gets real!

  71. 71.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 11:31 am

    @B.B.A.:

    and I can’t look a woman in the eye and tell her she’s lying.

    I did it to my ex all the time. You get used to it. Of course, it helped that it was true.

  72. 72.

    psycholinguist

    September 6, 2018 at 11:31 am

    If you haven’t watched Booker’s COME AT ME BRO reply to Cornyn (sp?) it is worth it. Tells him strait up his mouth just wrote a check his ass can’t cash.

  73. 73.

    PJ

    September 6, 2018 at 11:32 am

    @B.B.A.: Hey, you look like a discerning guy, can I interest you in some real estate – there’s this great bridge in New York City that – surprising, I know – is up for sale, and, if you keep this under your hat, you might be able to get it for a song . . .

  74. 74.

    OzarkHillbilly

    September 6, 2018 at 11:32 am

    There was a mass shooting in downtown Cincinnati on Thursday. Four, including the shooter, were killed, and others were injured, according to city officials.

    The shooting occurred at the Fifth Third Bank building near Fountain Square, which is at the core of downtown. Authorities said the threat has been neutralized, though multiple people were shot and some were killed.

    The story is still developing. Here’s what we know, and don’t, so far.

  75. 75.

    Jeffro

    September 6, 2018 at 11:33 am

    I do believe Booker just dropped the hammer

  76. 76.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 6, 2018 at 11:33 am

    @debit: Knock yourself out.

  77. 77.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:34 am

    @The Ancient Randonneur: Or the cilantro debate. Delicious or tastes like a stinkbug?

    Just so everyone knows where I stand, I’m stating for the record: it’s delicious and all of you haters can just go ahead and give me your share.

  78. 78.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:34 am

    @randy khan: How many of those “8 distinct complaints” had merit? I am serious. Did any of them? Link, please, on the 8 distinct complaints? I mostly remember that egregious Atlantic Monthly story that had no merit, and the staged photograph with the female GOP provocateur. What else did I miss?

    From what I saw, it was ratfucking upon ratfucking. I expected the Democrats to show more courage and loyalty. Instead, they turned into a pack. They did not serve Minnesota, or Democrats, well.

    The fact that there was a Democrat waiting in the wings does not absolve them. If anything, it’s even more proof of their cowardice.

  79. 79.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:34 am

    @Elizabelle:

    I can’t believe I keep having to write about it, but your read of the situation is so remarkably wrong (and held by a lot of people) that it drives me crazy.

    First, it was never just Gillibrand. Do you think there’s one chance in a million that she would have gone ahead if the other female Democratic Senators hadn’t been on board?

    Second, while absolutely calling for an ethics inquiry was the right call when it was one accusation (and I said so at the time), when it’s 8 you’re way beyond that territory. And when it’s 8 in three weeks, it’s going to be 20 in five weeks. There was only one way it was going to end for Franken, and ripping off the bandaid was way better than the alternative.

    I was very unhappy about what happened with Franken. I’d always liked him, and he was a very effective Senator. It’s certainly possible he was innocent, although the number of accusations lowers the probability of that considerably. But Gillibrand wasn’t the reason he left the Senate, no matter what some people want to think. She was just the person who told him it was time.

  80. 80.

    Fair Economist

    September 6, 2018 at 11:34 am

    @Cheryl from Maryland: The problem is that *none* of the accusations against Franken actually stood up to any scrutiny. Three of the claims of kissing or groping were accompanied by photos that actually *dis*proved the accusation because Franken was not in a position to actually do what he was accused of (e.g. the Tweeden photo in which he is substantially closer to the camera than she is). Three of the accusations were that he put his arm around someone’s waist during a photo, which is just normal behavior in our society. That leaves one accusation of forced kissing which was anonymous and accompanied by no evidence whatsoever.

    None of the other major targets of #MeToo had any public allegations disproved, never mind having *all* public allegations disproved. Franken’s treatment really stands out.

  81. 81.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 11:35 am

    @Percysowner: Chipped in to the DSCC just a few minutes ago. Good behavior deserves an immediate reward.

  82. 82.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:35 am

    @debit:

    It was based, IMO, on nothing more than cold political calculation.

    You say that like it’s a bad thing. I wish more Dems would do that.

  83. 83.

    B.B.A.

    September 6, 2018 at 11:35 am

    @PJ: “But Harvey Weinstein says he didn’t rape those women…”

  84. 84.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 11:36 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Good point about the Conyers thing. That was part of the context, which is easy to forget months later.

    @B.B.A.: It was fucked up, but I’m not sure it’s a burning issue for the youngs.

  85. 85.

    James E Powell

    September 6, 2018 at 11:37 am

    @Mr. Kite:

    Gillibrand did not cause Franken’s problems.

    There is a widespread belief that if Gillibrand had said nothing, Franken would still be a senator. I really don’t think so.

  86. 86.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:38 am

    @randy khan: When it means killing a fellow Dem to use his corpse as a ladder, yes, that’s a bad thing.

  87. 87.

    psycholinguist

    September 6, 2018 at 11:39 am

    Corey Booker just kicked the shit out of Cornyn. Cornyn made some crack about him running for president and that his conduct would get him kicked out of the senate. Booker responds COME AT ME BRO unless you’re chicken shit and your mouth wrote a check your ass can’t cash. Cornyn looked like he wanted to use a particular word so, so bad at that moment, but instead crawled back into his hole. It was delicious.

  88. 88.

    oatler.

    September 6, 2018 at 11:39 am

    Leahy just now: “Judge, I was born at night but not last night.”

  89. 89.

    Fair Economist

    September 6, 2018 at 11:40 am

    @catclub:

    [Collins] is not up for re-election this year, and voters have pretty short memories.

    However, Kavanaugh is going to be part of an endless stream of horrific 5-4 decisions that will repeatedly remind people what a horrible choice she made, and there will be additional cases on the dock in 2020 that will sharply focus people’s minds on it. Even for Collins, supporting Kavanaugh is going to be a big political risk.

  90. 90.

    tobie

    September 6, 2018 at 11:40 am

    @Fair Economist:

    The problem is that *none* of the accusations against Franken actually stood up to any scrutiny.

    Bingo.

  91. 91.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:40 am

    @James E Powell:

    There is a widespread belief that if Gillibrand had said nothing, Franken would still be a senator. I really don’t think so.

    The charges could have been real or baseless. But we’ll never know because they didn’t even allow the committee to start the investigation.

  92. 92.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:42 am

    @debit:

    And yet they haven’t done it again. Hmm.

  93. 93.

    Steve in the ATL

    September 6, 2018 at 11:44 am

    @Fair Economist: I’ll defer to the Mainers on this, but my impression is that Collins could shoot a person on Commercial Street in Portland and all the white women would still vote for her.

  94. 94.

    B.B.A.

    September 6, 2018 at 11:45 am

    @randy khan: They leaked a forged harassment complaint against Chuck Schumer to the press. It was instantly debunked as Schumer was provably out of the country on the date when he supposedly harassed a staffer in Washington, and the staffer herself denied it. (Turned out to be a clumsy edit of one of the Conyers complaints.)

  95. 95.

    burnspbesq

    September 6, 2018 at 11:46 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Y’all want to hate on Gillibrand, fine. Just hold your noses, show up, and vote for her when she’s the nominee.

    People whose delicate noses couldn’t be held long enough to vote for Hillary gave us Trump.

  96. 96.

    Fair Economist

    September 6, 2018 at 11:46 am

    I was pretty horrified by Franken’s railroading but at the same time it doesn’t particularly make me want to oppose Gillibrand. She does have a long record of being front and center on harassment, and she’s shown by her votes she’ll be good on policy. There are advantages to a President working for good causes willing to ruthlessly knife other pols to gain advantages, at least for those of us who aren’t top pols and won’t be targets of the knife. If I were in Congress I’d probably have a different take on it, of course, but I’m not.

  97. 97.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:46 am

    @debit:

    He already was dead. She just nudged the corpse so that it fell to the ground.

    I always am gobsmacked when people don’t get this. And if you don’t believe me, ask why every single one of the Democratic women was on board with her. It wasn’t because they wanted to give her a boost in 2020.

  98. 98.

    Barbara

    September 6, 2018 at 11:47 am

    @oclday: @balconesfault: I also would like to see Franken, but you know what? He has nothing on Kamala Harris. Nothing. She is the real deal, a real prosecutor who got their with true grit and experience. She embodies the best of the best in female lawyers: someone who dosn’t give an F whether the guy sitting across the table would consider asking her out for a date. (You might laugh, but I was a court clerk and an awful lot of female attorneys came across as not wanting to do things that would make them seem unappealing to the judge they were arguing in front of.)

    Al Franken did inappropriate stuff, he was punished too severely IMO but I am not going to mourn for him for the rest of my life. Gillebrand’s biggest mistake was being too obvious in how she went about doing what she did.

    And Kavanaugh’s answer — “I don’t know everyone who works at that law firm” — is the kind of answer that witnesses give as a dead giveaway that the answer is yes when they can’t possibly say no because that would be lying.

  99. 99.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:48 am

    @randy khan: Randy, please link to me these 8 incidents that came out within 3 weeks. Should not be hard to do. I do not know what you speak of.

    I am not being stupid (I don’t think). I just have never seen any evidence that seemed credible and worth the utter destruction of a Senator’s career with Franken.

    So please, link rather than lecture. If it’s that obvious, perhaps a dumbass like myself will see and believe too.

  100. 100.

    Leto

    September 6, 2018 at 11:48 am

    @randy khan:

    It’s certainly possible he was innocent

    I’m glad you remain committed to the rule of law. /s

  101. 101.

    Steve in the ATL

    September 6, 2018 at 11:48 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: how about: Elon Musk is the most greatest person ever and all you loser h8ers can suck it.

    Discuss.

  102. 102.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 11:48 am

    @randy khan: Franken certainly handed them a golden apple of opportunity with that photo. And how many years did that take to surface? You and I don’t know what’s out there. Hence my hope, for her sake, that Gillibrand is lily white in everything she’s ever done.

    Also, too, weird that for a man who was supposedly such a sexual predator that the accusations just dried up once he was gone. Hmmmm.

  103. 103.

    oclday

    September 6, 2018 at 11:53 am

    @<a [email protected]randy khan: Sorry I think Chuck told him it was time. Gillebrand was just the screaming hysterical cheerleader.

  104. 104.

    randy khan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:53 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Try Franken’s Wikipedia page. They’re listed there.

    @debit:

    We also haven’t heard of any more accusations against Roy Moore, and for the same reason – nobody in the press cares now.

  105. 105.

    Emma

    September 6, 2018 at 11:53 am

    @B.B.A.: So rehabilitate the woman who “went to Washington to get her presidential kneepads” while further spitting on Hillary? I don’t think the youngs know how effed up they would be without all the middle-aged Hillary supporters that actually run the party. Keep pushing and you might just find out.

  106. 106.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    September 6, 2018 at 11:55 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Seems to be the case. Sigh…

  107. 107.

    Barbara

    September 6, 2018 at 11:56 am

    @Elizabelle: Go find them yourself. For God’s sake, I like Franken a lot, I actually hoped that he would be in a position to run for president but my allegiance is to the country not any specific individual and I am not going to sit around with my thumbs up my behind because one very wealthy white senator could not clear his name fast enough for his peers in the Senate. Any response less than a ringing “this is made up shit and I can prove it” was going to sink him. That’s the hard truth of the situation.

  108. 108.

    VeniceRiley

    September 6, 2018 at 11:57 am

    1) Franken folded like a cheap suit. Some profile in courage! *wah wah* That’s not what I’m looking for in the Senate or in 2020.

    2) KAMALA is my co-pilot.

    3) her name is Kamala, not Kamela.

    4) Booker this morning all “Come at me, bro!” I love that. No, your random Joe-Bob other brother Darryl and friend of the nominee does not get to randomly declare any documents in possession of the Senate confidential.

  109. 109.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 11:57 am

    @Steve in the ATL: I’m an ex-Mainer, and I think you are not wrong. It’s a funny state which reminds me of where I grew up, Wisconsin.

  110. 110.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 11:58 am

    @Emma: Sadly, I think with the remake of the Judiciary the youngs are going to realize how effed up they are for not joining the Hillary supporters in 2016 and not only getting out to vote … but doing what they could to persuade everyone they knew how important it was to vote.

    They were sold a line that the “establishment” was bad. Their sources weren’t telling them that the establishment included the EPA, Roe v Wade, the Department of the Interior, OSHA, etc …

  111. 111.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 11:58 am

    Gillebrand was just the screaming hysterical cheerleader.

    I rest my case.

  112. 112.

    Doug!

    September 6, 2018 at 11:59 am

    @Nicole:

    I think we will. Obama was a real talent and that’s why he was able to win despite the disadvantage of being black. You might even say he compensated for those disadvantages by doing things like driving up turn-out among people of color.

    I think it will take a real talent to become the first woman president. But I think that real talent is out there. I think Gillibrand is very smart about finding things she can do better than a male politician could (just as Obama could probably drive up turn-out among POC better than a white candidate). Not saying she’ll be prez but I think someone like her will be.

  113. 113.

    tam1MI

    September 6, 2018 at 11:59 am

    @Haroldo: @geg6:
    There are no circumstances whatsoever under which I will vote for either Burnie Sanders or Kristen Gillibrand.

  114. 114.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 11:59 am

    @Emma: I think BBA is a troll. Subtle, but just slightly … off. In a lot of comments.

    Got you thinking what a sexual deviant Bill Clinton is, though. I shed no tears for Monica Lewinsky. She was a consensual participant, and should have kept her damn mouth shut. Bill Clinton is just damned lucky she was not a foreign operative.

    No one forced her to tell all to Linda Tripp. Monica destroyed her own self. If she’s carved out a career in handbags, or whatever she’s doing now, great, but she is no kind of moral arbiter we need to listen to.

    I never understood why Clinton lied in the first place. I really don’t think it would have cost him the Presidency. His being a horndog was kind of baked in at that point. He lied.

  115. 115.

    trollhattan

    September 6, 2018 at 11:59 am

    @balconesfault:
    I respect precedent myself; I also respect the steer who supplied the tritip I smoked last night. I’ll call him Mister Tasty.

  116. 116.

    trollhattan

    September 6, 2018 at 12:00 pm

    @Elizabelle:
    Pretty much. And without Linda Tripp and Jonah Goldberg’s mommy we’d have never gone down that path.

  117. 117.

    balconesfault

    September 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm

    @Doug!: The problem is that our lesson from the 2016 election is that driving up the vote among white women may actually harm Democratic Candidates.

  118. 118.

    Doug!

    September 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm

    @randy khan:

    You say that like it’s a bad thing. I wish more Dems would do that.

    Bingo.

    And you know what they’ll be saying, a bunch of losers sitting around in a bar: ‘Oh yeah, I used to be a politicians It’s a tough racket.’

  119. 119.

    Mnemosyne

    September 6, 2018 at 12:01 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    And at the expense of my junior Senator, too. ?

  120. 120.

    Doug!

    September 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm

    @balconesfault:

    FWIW I don’t think Hillary is that good a politician and she didn’t find the advantages in being a woman, she just got whacked with the disadvantages.

  121. 121.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm

    @tam1MI: I think you have me confused with someone else, but I’m glad you’ve got your fierce conviction.

  122. 122.

    geg6

    September 6, 2018 at 12:02 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    But Gillibrand is definitely the heir of Hillary Clinton Derangement Syndrome, with the same vector (sexism) driving the disease.

    Way to paint with a massively broad brush. She was Republican-lite most of her career. I’ve never liked her and the Franken debacle was just the cherry on top. I wouldn’t have voted for her before the Franken thing and I definitely won’t now, especially as her defenders keep telling me I’m a misogynist if I don’t support her. Fuck that bullshit. I was fighting for women’s rights when that prima donna was swanning around her exclusive private high school and fending off Ivy Leaguers at her Dartmouth sorority. And don’t get me started on the love affair The American Conservative had with her over her anti-immigrant stances. And her throwing the Clintons under the bus after all they’d done for her was the last straw. Screw her. She’s not worthy of my vote. I don’t understand why anyone who is a liberal would vote for her. She only became one when she decided she wanted to live in the White House. Well, that isn’t gonna happen if I can help it.

  123. 123.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:03 pm

    NPR is scolding Democrats for releasing confidential files.

    Not like the GOP doesn’t do that, constantly. Bad Democrats! Lawless!

  124. 124.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 12:03 pm

    @Elizabelle: BBA subtle????

  125. 125.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm

    This is crazy after all the Devin Nunes crap. We never had NPR scolding like that.

    I do not like daytime NPR news roundup. It’s often craven, and GOP-framed. Although I adore the classical music programming the other 55 minutes of the hour.

  126. 126.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:04 pm

    @Haroldo: Yeah, really. LOL. Hello in Oz.

  127. 127.

    germy

    September 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm

    I honestly thought Franken had repeatedly said he had no intention of running for president. He didn’t want to do it, his wife didn’t want to be dragged through it.

    Why do people think he was a potential 2020 candidate?

  128. 128.

    B.B.A.

    September 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    @Elizabelle: I gave up trolling for New Year’s. I’ve been completely honest about my beliefs this entire thread.

  129. 129.

    Emma

    September 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    @Elizabelle: I think Bill Clinton modeled himself on the Kennedy men. The problem is that while the Kennedy men were the ultimate lace-curtain Irish with enough clout behind the scenes to ride out storms, Clinton was seen as a nobody from nowhere who had the goddammed nerve to raise himself by his bootstraps. He wasn’t going to get the same help from the hypocrites.

  130. 130.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    @geg6: I am with you.

    This much division in a Balloon Juice thread, constantly? Please let the Democrats not be so stupid as to put Gillibrand up for president.

    We can do better.

  131. 131.

    Mnemosyne

    September 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    @The Ancient Randonneur:

    I like Hawaiian pizza.

    Come at me, bro. (Or, sis, I can’t remember.) ?

  132. 132.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    September 6, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    Billy Joel sucks ass. That is all.

  133. 133.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm

    OT: From the upcoming Anurag Kashyap (recently of the Sacred Games, fame)movie, Manmarziyaan. I love this song.
    Translation
    Man Marziyaan (Heart’s Desires)
    Music by Amit Trivedi.

  134. 134.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm

    @randy khan: Roy Moore was such a notorious predator that it was an open secret. Everyone knew, and none of his victims spoke because they were afraid and ashamed. And they knew they would be crucified, which they were. Until that photo surfaced, there wasn’t a whiff of an issue with Franken.

    Come at me, bro.

  135. 135.

    Emma

    September 6, 2018 at 12:07 pm

    @geg6: Co-signed. In blood.

  136. 136.

    Barbara

    September 6, 2018 at 12:09 pm

    @Elizabelle: We can do better than Gillebrand. Totally agreed, on that point, but it has nothing to do with Al Franken.

  137. 137.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm

    I know a lot of people like(d) Gillibrand a lot, but I think in terms of star power/charisma/stage presence (whatever) she would be eclipsed by, just thinking of women who might run in 2020, Harris, Warren, even Klobuchar’s smart college professor persona. Claire McCaskill if she survives this round would be a potent “centrist” candidate, and I’m deeply ambivalent about her even as I pray she does survive. An even bigger “if”, Stacey Abrams.

  138. 138.

    Emma

    September 6, 2018 at 12:10 pm

    @Doug!: Excuse me? OK, either you are trolling or you’re the dumbest… never mind. I give up. Not today.

  139. 139.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:11 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): How dare you, Sir!

  140. 140.

    West of the Rockies

    September 6, 2018 at 12:13 pm

    @Steve in the ATL:

    Or this: the New England Patriots cheated against the Rams in the ’03 Super Bowl!*

    They did.

  141. 141.

    Amir Khalid

    September 6, 2018 at 12:14 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    I’m not crazy about everything he’s released, but I wouldn’t go that far.

  142. 142.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:15 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Not Klobuchar. She is perfectly nice, but she is the baloney sandwich on Wonder Bread with Miracle Whip candidate. Perfectly bland, inoffensive and really, really white.

  143. 143.

    Jeffro

    September 6, 2018 at 12:15 pm

    Ok, now we have Lindsey Graham straight-up defending circuses (aka the Trumpov administration).

    I actually want to know what ‘they’ have on Lindsey more than I want to know what ‘they’ have on Trumpov at this point…

  144. 144.

    burnspbesq

    September 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    @tam1MI:

    There are no circumstances whatsoever under which I will vote for either Burnie Sanders or Kristen Gillibrand.

    You would refuse to vote for Gillibrand if she were running against Trump?

  145. 145.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    @Jeffro: Me too. I’m going to guess something other than his sexual orientation, because really, who doesn’t already know and who cares?

  146. 146.

    geg6

    September 6, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    @B.B.A.:

    Why do you think Monica is a victim? She wasn’t. And she isn’t interested in politics. And what the fuck does Bill Clinton and a 20-year-old scandal have to do with the youngs?

    You are an idiot.

  147. 147.

    Barbara

    September 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm

    @Bruce K: There is simply no reason for these to have been made confidential but the discussion is sufficiently complex that I doubt it will create any additional opposition to Kavanaugh. Those are my thoughts.

  148. 148.

    SFAW

    September 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm

    @Steve in the ATL:

    I’ll defer to the Mainers on this, but my impression is that Collins could shoot a person on Commercial Street in Portland and all the white women would still vote for her

    That’s only because Commercial Street can be a traffic nightmare, and everyone is too busy yelling at other drivers or the sky to notice.

    Danforth Street, on the other hand …

  149. 149.

    West of the Rockies

    September 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Ate you expecting disagreement?

  150. 150.

    James E Powell

    September 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm

    @Doug!:

    You know
Hagen does greenlight killing Sterling Hayden and the Turk.

    Sonny decided; Hagen acquiesced.

  151. 151.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm

    @debit: I’m not saying I want her to run, but there’s a lot of speculation that she will and I do think she projects authenticity. Gillbrand, while her track record on harassment is solid, always comes across to me as I trying too hard. Remember a year or so ago when she and Perez tried out performative swearing? Just made me cringe, and not because I’m a member of the Broderist Good Manners Club.

  152. 152.

    Barbara

    September 6, 2018 at 12:20 pm

    @geg6: She was a victim in the sense that too many people blamed her for conduct that was really equally if not more so the responsibility of the man in the frame, who happened to be president. All I can say is that someone with Clinton’s “issues” would not be nominated today.

  153. 153.

    Fair Economist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:21 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    I never understood why Clinton lied in the first place. I really don’t think it would have cost him the Presidency. His being a horndog was kind of baked in at that point. He lied.

    Actually he didn’t, at least not on the stand. The prosecutors asked him whether he’d had sexual relations with her, and provided a detailed definition which actually excluded his relationship with her. The “it depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is” joke was Clinton mocking the extremely detailed definitions of ordinary words they were giving him.

  154. 154.

    Mnemosyne

    September 6, 2018 at 12:21 pm

    @germy:

    I don’t get it, either. Franken always said he had way too many Hollywood skeletons in his closet to run for president, and he would never do it.

    IMO, Franken was sacrificed to get those last few votes Doug Jones needed to win in Alabama, and it worked. I can be annoyed that it had to be done, but I do think that’s what the political calculation was, and the calculation turned out to be correct. I would be even more pissed if Jones had ended up losing, but he didn’t.

  155. 155.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 12:22 pm

    @geg6: Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater Girl, was married to a man accused multiple times of sexual harassment and worse, said “super-predator” once, blah blah blah.

    As I said in #43, I’m sure there were people with non-sexist reasons to oppose Clinton, but that doesn’t erase the fact that there was and is a massive amount of sexism behind the antipathy towards her. I think the same is true of Gillibrand, and I invite you to see #103 above for a handy example in this very thread.

  156. 156.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:22 pm

    @Jeffro: @debit: until there are further revelations, I’m going with Ockham’s Razor and “absolutely desperate to be reelected”. A different room in the same club as Collins, Murkowski, Flake, etc

  157. 157.

    SFAW

    September 6, 2018 at 12:24 pm

    @debit:

    Just so everyone knows where I stand, I’m stating for the record: it’s delicious and all of you haters can just go ahead and give me your share.

    As I understand it, it’s a genetic thing.

    Speaking as one who keeps trying it, because I really want to enjoy it, but it keeps tasting like soap (or whatever). I keep hoping things will change, but I also keep hoping the Rethugs will stop trying to destroy the country, so maybe I’m fighting reality.

  158. 158.

    Hildebrand

    September 6, 2018 at 12:25 pm

    Seems we have gotten a bit off-track. I do believe that we should hooping and hollering about the way in which Kamala Harris made Kavanaugh look like a cheap, lying hack. Harris had him squirming throughout her questioning. It was a delight. One of her best questions of the night, ‘do you know of any laws that give government the power to make decisions over the male body?’

  159. 159.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm

    @Emma: The times changed, too. We’ve left the early 1960s. It’s striking to watch the movies from then (and really the 1930s on forward; just about no people of color not in servile roles; it’s startling.)

    Early James Bond films look like … date rape, at the very least. Overpowering a woman, because he knows she wants it. Uh, no.

    FWIW and OT: Casino Royale (from 2006) had a great version of the James Bond theme at the end of the credits. Love that music.

    A compilation of James Bond music from a 2011 BBC Proms performance. Thunderball, From Russia with Love, Goldfinger too.

    I’m kind of fascinated with them, because I missed most of them in the theatres. The later ones are too violent for me. Hand to hand fighting bores me.

  160. 160.

    Calouste

    September 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm

    @West of the Rockies: IPA: Toilet cleaner or weed killer?

  161. 161.

    Barbara

    September 6, 2018 at 12:27 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Not to revisit this too much, but the proof is in the natural experiment that was conducted in the 2016 elections in Pennsylvania. There were five statewide positions: Five male Republicans, three male Democrats (state supreme court and AG) and two female Democrats (U.S. Senate and president). The male Democrats won all three positions they were running for, and the only two Republicans who won were those with Democratic female opponents. Capice?

  162. 162.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:28 pm

    @Hildebrand: ‘do you know of any laws that give government the power to make decisions over the male body?’

    How ’bout it? And how has no one ever thought to ask this before! ? ! ?

  163. 163.

    Fair Economist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:28 pm

    @Hildebrand: Harris and Booker are both looking really good right now.

  164. 164.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:30 pm

    @Fair Economist: On the stand, you say. He could have headed the whole thing off by owning up at the time, before the GOP went for impeachment. At least IMHO. I remember listening to that the first day it blew up and thinking “really? I hope you are telling the truth.”

  165. 165.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm

    @burnspbesq: I am just going to hope that never happens. And I do not think it will. So, no reason to answer.

  166. 166.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:32 pm

    @SFAW:

    As I understand it, it’s a genetic thing.

    I don’t know. I used to be a cilantro hater and it really did taste like stinkbug to me. I continued to hate it until I quit smoking. Then it was the best ever.

  167. 167.

    Mnemosyne

    September 6, 2018 at 12:34 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Just wait until you see the disgusting shit they have prepared against Kamala Harris if she runs — the CA-based trolls have alluded to it, and it’s all based on what Harris was allegedly doing in bed with Willie Brown, who is a powerful guy in the CA legislature (former Speaker, etc).

  168. 168.

    burnspbesq

    September 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    Cowardly, chickenshit non-answer.

  169. 169.

    PJ

    September 6, 2018 at 12:37 pm

    @B.B.A.: Funny how every Franken accuser was a Republican and/or Trump supporter, except for one Democrat who was upset that he put his hand on her waist during a photo. Women continue to speak out against Harvey, whereas no one has accused Franken of anything since he resigned – could it be because Roger Stone’s work was done?

  170. 170.

    Fair Economist

    September 6, 2018 at 12:38 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Whoever we nominate is going to get smeared in the NYT. If they can’t find anything, they will make something up. The treatment of Hillary showed what we’re up against.

  171. 171.

    Hildebrand

    September 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    @Fair Economist: Yep, they have been doing some great work. Glad that they are not letting Kavanaugh or the Republicans off the hook.

  172. 172.

    FlipYrWhig

    September 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I dunno, I find this distressingly close to such lowlights as “Hillary Clinton said she was a Yankees fan but she also said she was a Cubs fan, haw haw so much pandering!” and “Hillary Clinton said she carried hot sauce, haw haw so much pandering!”

  173. 173.

    PJ

    September 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm

    @Mnemosyne: She’s got to know it’s coming, and I hope she’s prepared for it, because it will be relentless.

  174. 174.

    Mnemosyne

    September 6, 2018 at 12:40 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    I have had a theory for a while that the reason Bill went out and did the whole “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” press conference is that he was still lying to Hillary about the whole thing. And she was super pissed that he convinced her to go out and publicly defend him after lying to him.

    There’s a story about her (allegedly) horrible temper that has her throwing a lamp at his head in the WH residence after she found out he was lying to her about the affair but, really, I don’t blame her a bit. I probably would have done the same.

  175. 175.

    Mnemosyne

    September 6, 2018 at 12:43 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    D’oh! “lying to her.” I hate not having a 5-minute edit window.

  176. 176.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:45 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    There’s a story about her (allegedly) horrible temper that has her throwing a lamp at his head in the WH residence after she found out he was lying to her about the affair but, really, I don’t blame her a bit. I probably would have done the same.

    That’s pretty mild. I told an ex, after I discovered his infidelity, that his dick would have to go into boiling water before it went back into me.

  177. 177.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 12:48 pm

    Rant ON/

    Jesus Fuck! We’ve got straight-up fascists standing in line to run this country. There is an existential crisis. And Juicers are arguing about the past. I view these differences as trifling when compared to our common enemy. Mid-terms are paramount.

    Rant OFF/

    Thanks for your attention.

  178. 178.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    September 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Oh, come on. It’s possible to call Gillibrand out for overreacting to something without it being sexism.

    Now, it’s entirely possible that the sexism of others is why I have heard absolutely nothing else about her. Or it could just be that I live too far away and she’s done too little to catch my attention. The entirety of what I know about her is that she apparently has a huge blind spot on this subject and that she apparently used the Clintons to get into her current position while loathing them for Monica Lewinsky. Instead of insulting me for not liking what I’ve heard so far, sell me on her.

  179. 179.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    @burnspbesq: OK then. No. At this point, I would not vote for Gillibrand. Nor would I volunteer for her, and I am a longtime volunteer. She is an opportunist. We can do better.

    I do not even know that Trump will survive his term (nor if we will!). I do not know that Gillibrand will be the Democratic nominee. But there should be enough good options that someone as compromised and polarizing as Gillibrand should not rise to the top.

    Character counts with me. How safe are you with a careerist opportunist?

  180. 180.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 12:50 pm

    @Haroldo: We can talk about more than one thing at a time. It’s a pretty common ability.

  181. 181.

    Jeffro

    September 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    I do not even know that Trump will survive his term (nor if we will!).

    “Ooooh! Ooooh! Oooh! Ms. Elizabelle! I know the answer to the first part!”
    /Horshack

  182. 182.

    Nicole

    September 6, 2018 at 1:02 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    Oh stuff it.

    You seem nice.

  183. 183.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 1:04 pm

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Calling a woman senator a “hysterical cheerleader” in 2018 is sexist as fuck. Period. As for “selling you” on Gillibrand, sorry, that’s not my job. I can object to her getting slimed on Twitter and elsewhere by sexist assholes and speak up when someone does it in my presence without joining the Gillibrand 2020 committee. If she’s the party’s 2020 nominee, I’ll vote for her because I’m not stupid. I don’t know who I’ll support in the primary because I don’t know who’s running yet.

  184. 184.

    Percysowner

    September 6, 2018 at 1:08 pm

    @Elizabelle: Al Franken just announced he’ll resign from the Senate after 8 women alleged sexual misconduct the article lists the accusations with some of the names and notes that several women woman wanted to remain anonymous.

    I miss Al Franken, and I would not be unhappy if he ran again and got re-elected. Frankly the accusations weren’t as problematic as those against other politicians and entertainment people. But the culture in zero tolerance and it is hard to say, “what our guy did wasn’t that bad” while arguing tat sexual harassment is a bad, disqualifying thing. It was the wrong time for this to happen for Franken to ride it out. It is a cause Gillibrand believes in and it wasn’t going away no matter what. She helped staunch the bleeding and was able to show that Democrats will police our own,

    Do I find it telling that no more accusations have come up since his resignation? Sure. But Gillibrand wasn’t recruiting the accusers, merely responding tothe accusations. And really, the press would be all over the conveniently timed ethics hearing, which the Republicans would have scheduled for, let’s say…now to overshadow Kavannaugh.

  185. 185.

    rikyrah

    September 6, 2018 at 1:12 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    I hear you.

  186. 186.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 1:13 pm

    @Nicole: You were piling on, Nicole.

    And usually I am pretty nice.

  187. 187.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 1:18 pm

    @Percysowner: Thank you for providing that vox article. I literally never did see all the allegations lined up. (And it blew up just as I was leaving the country for an extended stay, the week before Thanksgiving, so I really never did see all the additional stuff.)

    It surprises me that Franken lasted until December 7th. Whole thing seemed to take a week, max.

  188. 188.

    chopper

    September 6, 2018 at 1:28 pm

    @B.B.A.:

    Harris and Booker weren’t on the Judiciary Committee until Franken’s resignation led to a reshuffle. I’d say Gillibrand’s decision is looking pretty good right now.

    clearly, gillibrand is history’s greatest monster.

  189. 189.

    J R in WV

    September 6, 2018 at 1:43 pm

    @tam1MI:

    There are no circumstances whatsoever under which I will vote for either Burnie Sanders or Kristen Gillibrand.

    Well!

    What a relief, as you can’t even spel Senator Sanders’s name….

  190. 190.

    rikyrah

    September 6, 2018 at 1:49 pm

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I hate to go here a little bit but I generally find that a lot of Democratic women in Congress are Michaels while too many of the men are Fredos.

    I love the analogy

    So do I. Consider it stolen.

  191. 191.

    J R in WV

    September 6, 2018 at 1:59 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    …all based on what Harris was allegedly doing in bed with Willie Brown…

    So two consenting adults, right? Who cares. In fact, isn’t she single? Don’t care about Mr Brown… he isn’t running.

  192. 192.

    TenguPhule

    September 6, 2018 at 1:59 pm

    @Uncle Ebeneezer:

    but KG could have jumped into a time machine, journeyed back to the past and forced Franken to not be creepy to 9 women (that we know of.).

    Claims of bullshit by Republicans and people who did not identify themselves. Who mysteriously dropped off the radar once he was ratfucked out of a seat.

    She advocated for execution without trial or even investigation.

    FUCK GILLIBRAND.

  193. 193.

    TenguPhule

    September 6, 2018 at 2:02 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    and I see the same thing happening with Gillibrand.

    /Suggest you get glasses

    Gillibrand is the tired old meme of “Democrats will always turn on their own.”

  194. 194.

    TenguPhule

    September 6, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    @The Ancient Randonneur:

    I’m looking forward to the pineapple on pizza debate.

    Heresy!

  195. 195.

    TenguPhule

    September 6, 2018 at 2:06 pm

    @debit:

    Or the cilantro debate. Delicious or tastes like a stinkbug?

    To be fair, this is a genetics issue.

  196. 196.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    September 6, 2018 at 2:06 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Ah, that was word policing and supposed to be compartmentalized from the “people who don’t like Gillibrand are sexists transferring their CDS from Hillary to Gillibrand” that always shows up when someone mentions Franken. Got it.

    I still object to being accused of CDS because I don’t like Gillibrand.

    @burnspbesq: If we get to the point where the choices are Trump and Gillibrand, knowing only what we know right now, I think we’re fucked as a party. But the courts matter too much.

    In the primaries, though, she’ll have to be utterly amazing to get my vote. Or running only against Wilmer by the time they get here.

  197. 197.

    TenguPhule

    September 6, 2018 at 2:07 pm

    @randy khan:

    And when it’s 8 in three weeks, it’s going to be 20 in five weeks.

    So if 40 anon accusers can be found against Gillibrand, you’ll definitely call for her to never run for any office in 2020?

  198. 198.

    Betty Cracker

    September 6, 2018 at 2:24 pm

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Since we’re not compartmentalizing, I’ll just point out that I’ve said repeatedly in this thread that there are no doubt people who dislike Gillibrand for non-sexist reasons, just as there were people who objected to Clinton for non-sexist reasons. That doesn’t erase the fact that much of the antipathy toward Clinton was driven by sexism, and I think the same is true of Gillibrand. In other words, if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.

  199. 199.

    PJ

    September 6, 2018 at 2:28 pm

    @J R in WV: I don’t care either, but Willie Brown was 31 years older than her, and the Republicans will plaster her with the “she slept her way to the top” argument. I think if they were similar ages, it wouldn’t have much effect, but the difference in age makes her look like more of an opportunist. So I think it will have some effect. (Again, I think consenting adults should have relationships with whomever they please, but that is not the majority of voters, or even likely the majority of commenters here, judging from the number of people who chime in with an “that’s gross” whenever there’s an age difference of more than a decade between people in a relationship.)

  200. 200.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 2:39 pm

    @PJ: I’d never heard that story about Willie Brown. Is it provably true? Is it relevant? If memory serves, Senator Harris is married now, and was an effective and popular attorney general in California.

    Why are you harping on this issue?

  201. 201.

    PJ

    September 6, 2018 at 2:53 pm

    @Elizabelle: I’m not harping on it, another commenter brought it up: https://balloon-juice.com/2018/09/06/scenes-from-an-italian-restaurant-2/#comment-7008854 . A quick glance at newspaper articles on Goole indicates it is true. It’s only relevant to people who care about such things, and there are a lot of them; more to the point is certain that Republicans will use anything and everything to smear Democratic candidates. That’s not a reason why she shouldn’t run, but it is a reason why she needs to be prepared for it.

  202. 202.

    Nicole

    September 6, 2018 at 3:00 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    You were piling on, Nicole.

    And usually I am pretty nice.

    Piling on whom? I posted 3 comments- one pointing out Gillibrand has been very consistent in going after sexual harassment, one in a reply to someone who replied to me, and one with a link pointing out that over half of the Democrats in the Senate called on Franken to resign. Please, expand on how that’s “piling on.”

    I don’t really care about Franken’s resignation. He was an adequate Senator, admittedly one who was very good on TV. But I am absolutely fascinated by how quick Democrats are to attack Gillibrand for being the first one to call for his resignation. Never mind 24 other Democratic Senators quickly joined in- they get a pass for what, caving to peer pressure? While she gets attacked for being bold enough to be the first voice.

    While we’re on the subject of Gillibrand, I also, and I say this a screaming lefty liberal, can’t blame her for shifting her political stances since become Senator. She was elected in a conservative area- after she became Senator, a Republican won the seat back in 2010. Upstate NY is not NYC. Now that she represents the whole state, her constituents have changed and so have some of her positions. I’m the kind of idiot who would like to think that my elected representatives are at least aware of my positions, if not, horror of horrors, actually trying to represent them.

  203. 203.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 3:10 pm

    @PJ: Apparently something to the rumors. From a Vogue profile this May, Kamala Harris Is Dreaming Big

    Harris settled in Oakland as a prosecutor, and later joined the San Francisco D.A.’s office. By the time she decided to run for district attorney, she had a reputation for fearlessness. Entering the race meant running against her former boss, Terence Hallinan. It also meant weathering press scrutiny over a public relationship she’d had with San Francisco’s mayor, Willie Brown, a decade earlier, when he was California Assembly Speaker. (Brown was married.) Harris rebuffed questions about Brown with typical forcefulness. “I refuse to design my campaign around criticizing Willie Brown,” she told a local reporter. “I have no doubt that I am independent of him—and that he would probably right now express some fright about the fact that he cannot control me.” Harris won.

    The first stories that came up had trollish links. Bookmarking the Vogue profile to read later. Preparation sounds like Senator Harris’s middle name, though. She’ll be ready.

    HARRIS WAS BORN to two Berkeley graduate students in the fall of 1964. Both were immigrants—her mother, Shyamala Gopalan Harris, a nutrition and endocrinology student from southern India, and her father, Donald Harris, an economics scholar from Jamaica—and they met “in the movement,” says Harris; they often took Kamala and her younger sister, Maya, to civil rights marches. They divorced when Kamala was seven, and though the sisters made regular visits to Palo Alto, where Donald lived as a Stanford professor, it was Shyamala who became the guiding force in Harris’s life.

    Shyamala set “incredibly high expectations,” Maya says. The Harris girls sang in an Oakland church choir, mastered Indian cooking, and cleaned test tubes in their mother’s lab. They were allowed to watch cartoons only if they simultaneously did something productive, like needlepoint or knitting. “I have no idea how many blankets Kamala must have crocheted,” Maya tells me. “She was the mad crocheter.” Harris describes her mother, who died in 2009, as “a force of nature—all five feet of her,” she says. “She had a code.” I glimpse some of the same intensity in Harris when I ask if her urge to protect the vulnerable comes from being raised by a single mom. “I don’t play a violin about my childhood,” she says firmly.

    The sisters traveled regularly to Jamaica and India, and Harris can recall sitting on the porch of her grandmother’s house in Jamaica for hours, chewing on sugarcane and listening to her father and uncles talk politics.

    (1) Democratic voters are just, in general, smarter, more inclusive, and more empathetic than GOP “fear uber alles” types. It’s a different set of values.

    (2) Democrats do not go for “test tube” types like Brett Kavanaugh. Seasoning with full life experience is important. Harris, like Obama before her, was traveling out of the country early in life, which gives one a wider perspective than the snake oil purveyors and reality TV stars the GOP falls for.

  204. 204.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 3:14 pm

    @Nicole: Totally get what you are saying about the difference in representing upstate NY vs. the state as a whole. Albeit, there is a difference between flexibility and opportunism (and that calls for an essay!)

  205. 205.

    debit

    September 6, 2018 at 3:23 pm

    @Nicole:

    He was an adequate Senator

    Really. You’re a constituent? You had first hand experience with his office? Because I was and I did and he was not “adequate.” He was probably the best senator I will ever have in my lifetime. If you want receipts I am happy to provide them.

  206. 206.

    Elizabelle

    September 6, 2018 at 3:43 pm

    @debit: Yeah. “Adequate” is a dismissive word. Franken appeared to take his duties very seriously, and asked probing questions at hearings. Not quite a back bencher.

  207. 207.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 4:01 pm

    @debit:

    It’s true….people can do it, whether it’s always useful to do so is another.

    Howevah….. the ‘Left’ likes arguing more than working together, it seems. It’s an historical affliction that’s fucked us over time and time again. The 2016 elections, fer instance. This particular post, for another, infinitely more minor but illustrative, example.

  208. 208.

    Haroldo

    September 6, 2018 at 4:04 pm

    @Haroldo: Lack of edit strikes again. “…….is another thing entirely.”

  209. 209.

    Grubert

    September 6, 2018 at 4:23 pm

    Another Minnesotan pissed off at Gillibrand and Schumer. Gillibrand’s crocodile-teared “what shall I tell my son?” when asked by Colbert why she called for resignation so quickly was a disgraceful avoidance of responsibility.

    That said, of course I would vote for her against Trump, but never in a primary

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