Christine Blasey Ford knew that coming forward with her allegation against SCOTUS nominee Brett Kavanaugh would open an alt-right hellmouth that would engulf her and her family, but she did it anyway. I think that’s a lot more patriotic than torching a pair of Nikes.
In yesterday’s thread on the topic, I said I thought there was maybe a 5% chance Ford’s revelation would sink the Kavanaugh nomination. Many of y’all were more optimistic. Maybe you were right.
There’s a lot of butt-hurt about the possibility — mostly from men, mostly on the right, but not exclusively. The complaint is that shit that went down in high school shouldn’t haunt someone forever.
To some extent, that’s true. My husband and I were discussing this last night. We’re about the same age as Kavanaugh and Ford. Like most folks in our demographic cohort, we’re glad our youthful exploits weren’t captured on social media.
We discussed many stupid things we’d done and said back during the Reagan administration — shameful, embarrassing, irresponsible shit. But neither of us ever sexually assaulted anyone.
Yes, things were different in the 1980s — go watch “Pretty in Pink” if you want to cringe at outdated sexist and racist stereotypes that were mainstream at the time. But the incident Ford describes wasn’t acceptable back then either, even as our societal consensus on consent was, shall we say, more primitive.
The folks who are mostly arguing in bad faith about Kavanaugh do occasionally raise valid issues about how fair it is to hold people accountable for past behavior that clashes with current mores, and also adult culpability decades later for behavior during adolescence. That’s a conversation worth having.
But as someone pointed out on Twitter, it’s mostly those same people who have no problem with smearing unarmed victims of police shootings with old social media material and think it’s okay to lock teenagers up for life without parole.
Overall, I’m grateful for the progress we’ve made on the consent issue. It didn’t keep a serial sexual predator out of the White House in 2016. In fact, resistance to new norms almost certainly helped propel the orange fart cloud to the Oval Office.
But if it can help keep an ideologue credibly accused of sexual assault from joining a serial sexual harasser on the highest court in the land — a court that issues rulings affecting women’s bodily autonomy — I’ll count it as progress.
Mike Lamb
Had Kavanaugh been punished at the time, I’d be a bit more sympathetic to the notion that something that happened 30+ years ago shouldn’t follow someone in perpetuity.
schrodingers_cat
What he did was unacceptable, anytime, anywhere. I believe her. I also think that the Grabby Old Perverts are going to double down. Their pro-life stance is about control, that they are not ready to relinquish. We have to seize it from them.
Ramiah Ariya
Ezra Klein on this – https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/17/17869092/brett-kavanaugh-christine-ford-sexual-assault-supreme-court
chopper
among other things, that argument conveniently ignores the fact that this is a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
Awesome tune! I found this on SiriusXM a few months ago and loved it. Very moving and you could tell probably came from personal experience
dmsilev
I’d have a smidgen of a hint of sympathy for the “he was just a teenager” argument if he accepted responsibility and faced consequences for the act. Either at the time or now. Absent that, however, ho nope none.
JPL
There’s nothing wrong with showing contrition, but instead Kavanaugh doubles down. Even if he does, he does not belong on the court. Will Ted Cruz show up to the hearing and question the victim?
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
And you wonder why people suggest you not set your novel in the 80’s…
Humdog
When he was a judge he determined a young woman in custody was not allowed to control her own body by getting an abortion she wanted. He also determined, as a judge, that two other women in custody who wanted to carry their pregnancies to term were not allowed to control their own bodies when he found that the authorities who forced their abortions were in the right. In his black and white on paper decisions he has proven that what a woman wants for her body do not matter to him. In sober daylight, for him, a woman’s consent is unnecessary for the most intimate decisions regarding her own body.
Is it so hard to believe that a young woman’s consent did not matter to him when he was young, drunk and aroused?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
Also, I disagree about the “times were different” excuse. What BK did was pretty much always wrong like BC said. It was just that men like BK didn’t recognize that and benefited from his position as a wealthy white guy from a wealthy white family.
Elmo
The reference to “Pretty in Pink” and other cultural references of the period is interesting to me. Let’s take it at face value and explore it. What Kavanaugh is alleged to have done would have unequivocally made him the *villain* of any one of those teenage romance movies. It’s almost stereotypical, really – there are tons of movies about the young “nice guy” who can’t find love, who yearns in silence after the pretty girl, and then the “Big Man On Campus” shows his true self by assaulting the pretty girl in almost exactly the way Kavanaugh is alleged to have done.
JPL
@Ramiah Ariya: Thank you for the link.
rachel
The new rumor coming out is that Kavanaugh’s mother (also a judge) presided over a foreclosure hearing involving Ford’s parents, and supposedly this is Ford’s motive.
I haven’t seen any reputable source for the rumor yet. Does anybody here know any more?
Chyron HR
I don’t think a deranged nazi rapist “winning” the 2016 election by negative three million votes should haunt the country forever, but that’s just me.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
In addition to my comment at 9, I absolutely believe a universal morality has always existed and that certain acts have always been wrong, even if the perpetrators/bystanders didn’t recognize it at the time, based on empathy and a shared sense of humanity. I even wrote a paper on it back in freshman year of college.
Racer X
I agree with Chopper – lifetime appointment = lifetime behavior. A Supreme Court justice should be held to highest standard – it’s right there in the name…
supreme |səˈprēm, so͞o-| adjective: of authority or an office, or someone holding it, superior to all others
Major Major Major Major
@Elmo: these are the same people who basically identify with the Empire in Star Wars…
Martin
@Mike Lamb: Right. I believe people can earn second chances, but a prerequisite for that is making things right. Had Kavanaugh been punished in high school, and could admit to his wrongdoing today, then fine. There’s a debate to be had about whether he deserves a 2nd chance. But he wasn’t, and his lack of punishment may have allowed him to become a candidate for USSC. So he needs to take the punishment now, which means being impeached from the DC Circuit. He can work his way back up from there as there are plenty of people who didn’t assault someone, or who did and paid their dues, who deserves to be considered for both the DC Circuit seat as well as the USSC one.
Elizabelle
Timid fucking NPR just led with the Kavanaugh story.
The quisling reporter said that Republicans would like to confirm someone before the new Supreme Court term begins.
The 11:00 am NPR report was honest enough to say the GOP wanted to rush this through because they fear losing the Senate, although she scoffed that that was an outside possibility.
I am always curious how NPR will frame stuff during their hourly news recaps. And I enjoy listening to their music programming without giving those cowards one thin dime.
schrodingers_cat
@rachel: This is the standard what aboutery tactic of the Grunts of Putin party.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
Of Warhammer 40k’s Imperium of Man. It’s telling that you have to make the universe literally want to mindlessly kill you in order to make fascism even remotely palatable.
susanna
@chopper: Yes!
Be loud and proud with comments to/about Feinstein, Eshoo (Fords’s Rep. whom she also contacted).
Brought to you from the land of the 9th Circuit Court(partially, maybe 80%), Guv. Brown, etc, who are working for all freedom-minded people with a healthy conscience.
Calouste
@JPL: Even if you think that teenage mistakes should not follow someone their whole life, there’s still the problem that Kavanaugh flat out denied it happened. That’s a lie now, when he is up for the “Supreme” Court, not when he was a teenager.
FlipYrWhig
@Elmo: Exactly. Not that there aren’t examples from ’80s teen culture of assault as vindication for (male) losers and nerds, but, yeah, part of the freakin’ POINT of that era’s representations of outsiders, freaks, and geeks is that THE PRIVILEGED PREPS ARE EVIL, and Kavanaugh is a privileged prep.
Martin
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Back then this would have been a disciplinary matter, not a criminal one. Even today that wouldn’t be uncommon. That really needs to change. This is a crime and should go to the police, not the principal.
MagdaInBlack
I said that last night: haven’t changed my opinion
wormtown
As a grad of a Jesuit college, I find it amusing that he and Clarence Thomas are products of Jesuit schools. Thomas college; this guy Prep school (and college)? Older than Kavanaugh, younger than Thomas; this alpha macho, heavy drinking bs was big when I was a student. Lots of misogyny.
Lee Hartmann
as Charlie Pierce points out, K has categorically denied this, which makes it even more of an issue. He spent a lot of time in his hearings skirting the edge of perjury (I think he went over the line), but there isn’t much ambiguity about this.
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: this is why it’s popular among religious extremists and racial putitarians.
Omnes Omnibus
Standards weren’t so different in the ‘80s that BK’s alleged actions could be anything but sexual assault. Ford doesn’t describe a drunken miscommunication about how far along people want to go; she describes a physical attack. No question, no doubt.
Drunken miscommunication doesn’t make things right. Affirmative consent should always be the watchword.
japa21
@Calouste: Exactly right. As I told my wife today, if he had come out when this first surfaced and said, “Yes, that happened, I was wrong and I admit it. I have never in any way acted inappropriately since. I sincerely apologize for the pain I caused Ms Ford.” etc. then this would probably have blown over. It is the arrogance of his response, which tends to be the general arrogance of the GOP at this point which should doom his nomination.
SFAW
@Ramiah Ariya:
Last few sentences from Ezra:
I assume he wasn’t being serious. If he was, then I question his understanding of politics, specifically how the Rethugs operate.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Add in his honest admission that he had never heard of Harry Nilsson.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: I think he’s being earnest but also knows the answer. Klein is an earnest fellow, but he also knows how the game is played.
gogiggs
If we were talking about cutting class or sneaking out to smoke, sure, let’s not hold teenage hijinks against someone.
But we’re talking about (allegedly) shutting a 15 year old girl in a room, turning up the music and putting a hand over her mouth so nobody can hear her protest and then sexually assaulting her. That’s not youthful mischief, that’s a serious crime.
oldster
The “norms have changed, it was all good back then” response kind of founders on the fact that he and his pal turned up the music so that no one could hear her scream. And then he clamped his hand over her mouth.
I’m more than a decade older than this asshole, and I came up under the old rules. This was never okay.
I did some stupid things when I was a teen, but I never attempted to rape anyone.
It sure looks like the entire right-wing commentariat did, though. Every one of them saying, “hey, if a few attempted rapes when you’re a teenager is going to be held against you, who among us will escape?”
Well, no one among *you*. That’s because you’re all rapists, or would be rapists. Thanks for labeling yourselves publicly.
Nicole
As has been pointed out, it’s that he did this and never faced any consequences for it. Had he done it, been arrested and charged and served time in juvy, I’d actually have a different perspective. But this is a guy who did this, got away with it and is now furious that it’s come up again because it’s in the way of something he thinks he’s entitled to. You know, like her swimsuit was.
There’s also the blatant lying during the hearings, too. That’s also a problem and should have counted for something. But if this is what catches the public’s attention, fine. I’ll take it.
randy khan
@Martin:
My response to people who want to give him a second chance is to point out that there is no way that someone who was convicted of attempted rape at 17 would even be on a list of people to be considered for a slot on a federal appeals court, let alone on the Supreme Court. (I mean, leaving aside that he wouldn’t have gone to the college and law school he attended.) The idea of rehabilitation is that people can have productive lives, not that we’re going to give them a pass to the most prestigious and important positions in our government.
Also, let’s be realistic – none of those people would give be making this argument if he weren’t an elite-educated, while male conservative.
JPL
@Calouste: He continues to lie under oath. If he does appear again, the Senators need to mention his previous lies, and ask why should we believe you now?
NotMax
Henry Hyde got away with the youthful hijinks nonsense defense. That occurred when he was 41.
Just sayin’.
JPL
@randy khan: Yup!
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: not that there’s anything wrong with learning things! But better to set a novel in a period you know.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Max, how many years ago was that?
I don’t see this ending well for Kavanaugh. I doubt he will be confirmed, and his wife and daughters have to be in anguish about this.
Calouste
BTW, the same people who want to let Kavanaugh off “because it was so long ago” don’t have a problem taking away the citizenship of people because of what someone else might or might not have done to their birth certificate long ago.
patrick II
As I wrote in a comment to your post yesterday, this guy is a serial abuser of women, from young Chelsea Clinton having to hear and bear the family consequences of Kavanaugh’s lurid questioning of her dad, the abuse of Lewinsky at the same time. Clinton had sexual relations with Lewinsky, Kavanaugh and the Republicans sexually abused her. And lately the pregnant hispanic immigrant locked in detention seeking an abortion which “judge” Kavanaugh denied for no justifiable legal reason because he could and because wanted to audition for the Supreme Court with the anti-birth control mob.
That Kavanaugh as a youth physically abused a woman as well is not a suprise, it seems expected of a man running true to form.
West of the Rockies
@dmsilev:
Super important point! Yes, if Kavanaugh admitted he may have done the thing, or at least acknowledged the possibility that he had been more aggressive than he should have been, and that “his pass” had “been inartful” (bullshit, but at least a starting point), maybe I would entertain having empathy for him.
But no… He wants us to believe he is a golden boy, pure and good and brave. F that noise.
NotMax
@NotMax
Amended for clarity.
Henry Hyde got away with the youthful hijinks nonsense defense. For activities which occurred when he was 41.
Just sayin’.
IOKIYAR.
Nicole
Also, just because it’s totally eating at me (totally)- I think Pretty in Pink is actually much less problematic than a lot, a lot of 1980s film (including most of the rest of John Hughes’ oeuvre- oh, Sixteen Candles. I loved you so back then, but I can’t watch you anymore). It was the one film where not only did the Nice Guy not get the girl, he also actually was okay about it at the end.
The Midnight Lurker
@Racer X: Spot on, sir! I agree completely. We need to start holding all of our elected officials to a higher standard.
Major Major Major Major
@oldster:
Reminds me that the only people who think homosexuality is a choice are obviously considering it.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
During the Clinton Impeachment, which wasn’t really all that long ago.
MagdaInBlack
@patrick II:
Exactly.
GideonAB
Do we know that Kavanaugh behaved properly towards women from that point onwards?
Major Major Major Major
@Nicole: didn’t Ducky originally get the girl but it didn’t focus group well?
gene108
If Brett showed any contrition for his bad deed, I might be able to say it shouldn’t haunt him forever, but he is either denying it happened or openly willing to let others smear her to advance his career.
He deserves to be brought down over this.
opiejeanne
@Elmo: Back to the Future: Biff Tannen.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Teens do stupid shit because they are stupid. It is worth keeping in mind there is no “Men’s Only Manly Class On Seduction, Getting Her Engine Running And Other Manly Man Things” they give in high school (though if you ask me it would be a good thing) so mistakes will be made in the learning process. On the other hand, this Kavanaugh dude does come across as this wasn’t the only time.
Good news; thanks the internet future SCOTUS nominees will be unlikely to be accused of rape.
Bad News: we will be looking future SCOTUS nominees’ selfies of them beating their junk that they posted to the internet in highschool. And god help us.
Martin
@randy khan: No, I agree with this point. If he was convicted and punished, then he charts his course in life. Maybe he does or doesn’t attend the schools he did. Maybe he does or doesn’t get nominated for the court, and recounts to the FBI what he did. We don’t know. We only know where he is now, and he should take the punishment now as if he did the act now. That’s the consequence of not dealing with it when he was 17, and leaving behind a victim.
And I would argue that some of the strongest proponents for change are those that went through that gauntlet. You want to see criminal justice reform, you need to elect or put on courts people that have been there. McCain opposing US torture policies was important. That’s one of the problems I have with the supreme court – 9 people isn’t enough for representation of the all the issues that USSC weighs in on. Now, that requires someone who does WAY more than just be held accountable for what they did, it has to be someone that becomes an advocate. That’s not this guy or, frankly, any Republican I can think of, but those people do exist and I believe should be considered.
Betty Cracker
@Nicole: I actually meant “16 Candles!” You are right!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@gene108:
Ask Al Franken how apologizing goes,
Nelle
In all of this, the argument is over low bars. There is no discussion of wisdom, of the employment if the true meaning of justice, about whether or not this person has the capacity or foresight to ponder, to consider anything outside a white privileged, male perspective. It is all at a low mean level of what can we get away with.
Gelfling 545
OT but interesting. Chris Collins will remain on the ballot as the GOP candidate.
Edmund Dantes
@Elmo: the hero of revenge of the nerds rsecuakky assaults/rapes the head cheerleader, and he then gets the girl.
sukabi
Only 2 of the 65 women who signed that letter still back that statement since Ms. Ford has come forward publicly.
Kinda puts the lie to the assertion that Grassley and fellow gropey old pervs had no fore knowledge about this and the letter was a spontaneous act by these women.
burnspbesq
If this takes Kavanaugh down, fine—but what should be taking him down is that he’s unqualified and outside the mainstream of judicial thought. Bork got borked for a reason, and so should Kavanaugh.
Edmund dantes
Sexually assaults. Typing too quick on phone
The Midnight Lurker
And right on cue, CNN is reporting that Kavanaugh is lawyering up against the charge. And this, right after his ‘meeting’ at the White House. Hmmmm.
OzarkHillbilly
@JPL: Will Ted Cruz show up to the hearing and engage in character assassination of the victim? Yes.
burnspbesq
@Edmund Dantes:
False. She was probably too wasted to legally consent, but there’s nothing to suggest that she didn’t.
Adam L Silverman
@GideonAB: It was reported on MSNBC during the 10 AM EDT hour that a reporter had run down all 65 women on the letter attesting to Kavanaugh’s integrity and action towards women. Only two would go on the record that they still supported the statement in the letter they signed on to.
Martin
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Well, I’m not sure that’s what should be taught in high school. Fuck, just teaching young people what consent is would prevent a whole generation of Republicans. But I learned that just fine from my dad, who never engaged in the macho bullshit, and was a good role model for treating others (not just women) with respect. Of course, we didn’t have Fox News back then to explain how that meant that liberals were ruining America.
But yes, teens do stupid shit, which is why they often shouldn’t be treated like adults, should have alternate punishments, and should be focused on learning and not isolation from society. But that reality doesn’t really exist. You either have Brock Turner or you have Michael Brown.
The Dangerman
@rachel:
Appears to be false PER FOX.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: I believe the plurality didn’t answer or get back to the reporter though.
Mary G
He could easily blame it on the excessive drinking the partner in crime has already admitted to, say he doesn’t remember, but he could have done it while impaired, that he drunk through law school, which he did, and has since seen the errors of his ways, he’d get a pass. But no, not for the perfect Supreme Court justice.
OzarkHillbilly
@Martin: I had sisters, who would have ripped my head off and shit down the hole if I had ever done anything even remotely like that.
sukabi
@Major Major Major Major: silence is an answer, isn’t it?
The Midnight Lurker
Uh-oh! According to the Law & Crime website (A Dan Abrams Production BTW) – there is NO statue of limitations for felony sexual assault in Maryland.
This looks like a job for Rudy G!
Nicole
@Betty Cracker: I thought you probably did mean 16 Candles, my fellow Gen-Xer (high five). My husband and I do a fiction podcast and he wrote an episode this season as an homage to the 1980s teen movies (and a rumination on male entitlement) so he recently revisited the Big Three of John Hughes. He was surprised at how much more he preferred Pretty in Pink now, compared to 16 Candles and The Breakfast Club. Less problematic and a more active heroine. Even setting aside the sexism and racism, Sam in 16 Candles is a completely passive character.
Doug R
Kavanaugh in 1983 did basicallly the same thing as the character of Biff Tannen in Back To The Future. Which was shot in 1985 and set in 1955. ALWAYS WRONG.
Doug R
@opiejeanne: I see you got to Biff before me.
Elizabelle
@burnspbesq: Agreed. He was chosen solely to prop up Trump’s criminal orange ass, and to codify terrible Republican ideas.
I think a lot of voters pay more attention than the pundits and reporters suppose. They are probably disgusted with their GOP senators for being willing to go along with this until the “accused of assault” fig leaf appeared. They will remember this.
Heard some pundit, maybe on MSNBC online a week or two ago, saying that Merrick Garland was old news and nobody remembers or cares about that. Not hardly. And I closed the webpage once I heard that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Mistakes, sure. Mistakes are things like “I thought she wanted me to kiss her but when told me to stop I stopped.” What Ford describes is not a mistake.
sukabi
@The Midnight Lurker: well, that would explain his need for a lawyer. Lying to congress as well, but you know Grassley and that bunch already knew he was lying and didn’t care.
Kay
I don’t think conservatives should smear all men by saying they “all” did this. My male friends didn’t do this in high school and they were a lot sketchier and less ambitious than Kavanaugh because I had kind of a misspent youth. They did “bad things” – substance abuse, petty theft, a lot of traffic offenses, some resisting arrest (which is almost always a bullshit charge) but they did not attack the girls in the group. We were more like partners in crime. Often, if I may be so bold, “the brains” of the operation :)
It wasn’t like “the boys are bad but the girls are good”. We were all bad. That’s why we were friends. But- not bad in that way- we didn’t physically attack one another.
So it’s sort of opposite what they’re saying. They probably would have trouble being judges but not for violent offenses.
Major Major Major Major
@sukabi: possibly not, at this time scale. And given the public nature of the comment, I could easily see people not wanting to be associated with this thing any more, even if they do stand by him privately.
PAM Dirac
@sukabi: Reposted from downstairs. Just a warning that focusing on the mechanics of the letter could you burned:
I have a Facebook friend who says she knows about 40 of the signees. First, she said she wouldn’t be surprised if they organized this in one day, these people are that focused. Second, she says she wouldn’t be surprised if this was selective memory on their part, especially since the victim wasn’t in the Catholic girls school crowd. Also a reflexive defense of someone who part of the Bethesda crowd. It still does mean that the letter has any value in determining whether the victim is telling the truth, but does suggest that people should focus on the lack of relevant details in the letter and not on the mechanics of generating it. The follow up seems to be showing that saying “He’s a great guy” is quite different from saying “I know he didn’t commit this assault”.
Edmund Dantes
@burnspbesq: no. He used deception to make her believe it was her boyfriend. That is assault. Would she have said yes to sex if she knew it was the “nerd” before her change of heart?
bluefoot
@chopper: exactly. The American People deserve the benefit of the doubt more than Kavanaugh.
Kay
Truancy. LOTTA truancy. Forging. We did a lot of forging of passes and things.
“status crimes” where your age makes it a crime, same with driving with no license, buying booze, etc. No attempted sexual imposition. That’s a different category, even now in juvenile adjudications.
I would put “youthful indiscretions” firmly in the one category and not so much the latter, and I think most judges do too.
trollhattan
@Elmo:
Li’l Brett is Chet from “Weird Science.”
Roger Moore
@Nicole:
I agree with this in principle, but we all know he wouldn’t have gotten within a country mile of a federal judgeship, much less a Supreme Court nomination, if that had happened. If he had actually been punished for his behavior back then, it would have followed him through his life. It probably wouldn’t have been enough to keep him from being happy and successful- his privilege is enough to give him plenty of second chances- but it almost certainly would have been enough to keep him from the highest levels of his profession.
Mandalay
So if I go to Google News there are five headlines for the Kavanaugh story. Here are three of the five headlines, two of which are just editorials with no news content:
– Brett Kavanaugh dismisses sexual assault allegations as ‘completely false’ (FoxNews)
– Republicans should not allow the hit on Kavanaugh to succeed (The Hill)
– The #MeToo Kavanaugh Ambush (Wall Street Journal)
So I suppose Trump did have a point about Google having a biased presentation of the news.
C. Isaac
@trollhattan: Even Chet had better self awareness and owned up to his shittiness by the end.
Even if he had to be turned into a puss monster to make it happen.
jonas
@rachel: A lawyer commenter over at Kevin Drum’s place took a look at the available records and pointed out that the elder judge Kavanaugh’s involvement in the case was really quite minor. It’s not clear that they Blaseys were even aware of who the judge was who ruled in their case. They didn’t have a lawyer and never even showed up in court.
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: No. This was not a mistake. Fuck that temporizing bs. He. Put. His. Hand. Over. Her. Mouth. He pushed her down, and had his buddy turn up the music to cover her screams. That isn’t naïveté, or clumsiness, or inexperience. It’s rape (attempted). As a once-young male veteran of some awesomely cringe-inducing proposition/seduction fails, let me assure you that never once did my epic stupidity and ignorance mislead me into the use of force. It doesn’t work that way. There is no “accidental” rape.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay:
catclub
@Racer X:
and this is basically why Harriet Miers was kicked down, “You should find a better candidate” Sounds like that needs to happen here.
trollhattan
@Nicole:
Molly Ringwald on showing “Breakfast Club” to her daughters.
Kay
Shoplifting. That’s an ordinary juvenile offense. I wouldn’t hold that against him. It’s when you go from property to people that it starts to get serious. This is the same analysis state codes and courts use, by the way. I didn’t invent this distinction. Zoom all the way out and there’s basically two categories. He would be in the more serious group of offenders were he in an actual juvenile system.
TenguPhule
It sure as hell should if they want to be on the Supreme Court. Or Congress. Or the Presidency.
schrodingers_cat
@schrodingers_cat: blockquote fail and I cannot edit my comment. Should have ended after the :).
trollhattan
@catclub:
If he can’t harmonize with Diana he shouldn’t be a Supreme. Just sayin’.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Let’s not sterotype. There are lots of non-insane, non-facist, non-rapists who root for the Empire in Star Wars because they have so many wonderful toys and uniforms.
schrodingers_cat
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: Yep this how villains in popular Hindi movies of yore behaved. Need I add that it is not exactly a film industry on the cutting edge of feminism.
Nicole
@Kay:
Though I would not be surprised to find out that conservatives assume all men did things like this. I knew boys/young men who did stuff like this when I was a teen, and to a person, of the ones I am still aware of, they are all right-wing assholes today. Birds of a feather.
jimmiraybob
if I recall my high school years correctly, the conservative view was that shit SHOULD go on your permanent record to haunt you for the rest of your life. Of course I now realize this only applies to the peasant moocher- and taker-class.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: didn’t realize you were a fan.
TenguPhule
@JPL:
FTFY.
And yes, i consider this a not completely absurd possibility because that’s where we are in this shitty timeline.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Oh, ours weren’t “protective”. If anything they leaned on us too much, but I might just have had immature friends.
That’s partly why I didn’t and don’t see them as “predators”- they were sort of needy.
The truth is though if you looked at a juvenile adjudication now, today, there would be a group of minor offenders with status or property crimes and then more serious offenders with crimes against people. That’s the distinction and all the rest of it is grounded in that basic idea. So I don’t think it’s helpful to put shoplifters in with (alleged) assaulters- that isn’t how it works.
What is alleged is serious and would be treated seriously with a juvenile offender.
Mandalay
Somewhat off topic, but that is exactly the opposite of the argument Republicans make in Florida, where convicted felons are forever prevented from voting.
There is a chance that can change in November:
But her emails!!!
This is why Kavanaugh shouldn’t be acceptable to either the left or those on the right who are actually pro life. They guy isn’t about protecting fetuses. He just wants the government in control of uteruses.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m not one for the Empire. But I play against them and they’re more often then not nice people.
oldster
@Major Major Major Major:
Meh, a failure to vote ‘yes’ in this case should be read as a ‘no’ vote. These women did not answer because they could not answer in the way their ideology (or husbands) demands of them.
Maybe they were just too busy to get back to the reporters? Ummm…they somehow managed to reply in record time to a Facebook query asking for the initial signatures.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: Exactly. If at 17you don’t know it’s wrong to force yourself on someone by holding them down, covering their mouth, etc., there’s something wrong with you.
TenguPhule
@But her emails!!!:
Free Market bitches. //
The Midnight Lurker
Donnie the Lessor has stepped up his attacks on Ford. The Trump’s really, really want Kavanaugh on the bench. I wonder why?
TenguPhule
@Martin:
McCain turned out to be just fine with torture provided that blame was spread to everyone so that nobody important could be held accountable.
The Midnight Lurker
That should read ‘Donnie the Lesser’. (Weeps quietly to himself) My edit button…
TenguPhule
@The Midnight Lurker:
Five SC justices will proceed to declare that rape it not a crime as long as its men doing it to women.
Kay
@Nicole:
Well, no one is saying he should be dinged for getting drunk in high school, although that was illegal. It’s the assault that takes it into “big deal”. I feel like conservatives are deliberately putting this into too broad a category.
There are real and practical reasons we have these categories. Stealing a car is one thing- stealing a car with a baby in the back is another.
trollhattan
@But her emails!!!:
I know nobody bothers to ask SCOTUS noms their stance on capital punishment but no pro-lifer can support such a nom and Catholics in particular have to heed the pope on the matter.
Boy, I crack myself up.
Nicole
@trollhattan: Thanks for that! The piece she did for The New Yorker about watching TBC in the #metoo era was a great read.
MagdaInBlack
@Kay:
I think you and I had similar mis-spent youths……and I never had a bit of concern with those “bad ” boys I ran with.
The ones who concerned me and whom I avoided……were a bit like our Judge Kavenaugh in demeanor. By that I mean: the creep factor was evident.
Aleta
Run-of-the-mill teen cluelessness and underdeveloped brains don’t explain two 17 yo’s working together to push a 15-16 yo into a room, locking it, turning up the music, cutting off her voice, molesting her, and trying to rape. Sociopathy does.
His pattern has been proved many times: Doing or saying what’s needed to advance or get approval, even if illegal. “Unbiased interpretation of the law” — don’t make me gag.
A 17-18 yo in 1982-3 who didn’t know or care that force and rape are illegal? Would be sent to jail under an unbiased interpretation of the law.
Emma
@Major Major Major Major: They went on the record. They put it in writing and now it’s hit the fan very publicly. Either you support your own signature or I can doubt your story,
gwangung
@jimmiraybob:
Particularly if you were non-white.
trollhattan
@Kay:
In the real world he committed a felony. Those prep school boys, of course, glided through a world free of those pesky rules.
wuzzat
@The Midnight Lurker: Yeah, the old one’s the lessor.
ruemara
Tamir Rice was 12. Trayvon Martin was 17. They’re dead, despite doing nothing wrong. Explain why only white men get to be boys being boys & excused from the consequences of sexual abuse, assault, rape, racism etc in their youth. Then explain why the excuse of youthful indescretion is considered valid until you’re 45.
It’s not that I don’t know why. It’s that I’d love Kavenaugh’s defenders to come out & say it plain.
Fuck them & fuck that man, I hope he’s disbarred & faces jail.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Most thieves return the baby.
Kelly
I have a nephew that spent most of his teenage years behind bars for a crime that cannot be expunged from his record. He was a young teen hanging with some exciting, rough guys in their 20’s in spite his family’s best efforts. He’s a hard working family man now, kind and very regretful. So I have some sympathy for the idea of a fresh start. But Kavanaugh isn’t willing to own up to anything.
I’ve loved three women that were raped. Two as children by their stepfathers. One as a young adult by a neighbor she barely knew. I believe Christine Blasey Ford. Kavanaugh should be shunned from public life for his shamelessness.
Nicole
@Kay: Oh no, I totally agree with you. I’m saying that I think it entirely plausible that most conservative men assume all men have at least one instance of assaulting a woman at some point in their lives. Because they don’t really view women as equals. It’s not right that they say, “Well, all men have some kind of sexual assault on someone in their past,” because it’s not true, but I would not be surprised to find out that these right wingers honestly believe all men do.
Major Major Major Major
@The Midnight Lurker: complaining about the edit button won’t make it return, folks. The current version of the blog is on end-of-lifecycle support. Edit button is in the next version, which will be ready soonish.
@Emma: doubt away. If I were in this exact same situation, I wouldn’t return the reporter’s call even if I still supported the person in question. All I’m saying.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
Because not enough bad white men are killed early enough before they reach positions of power.
Barbara
Even casual browsing on Kavanaugh unearths a lot evidence that he drank a lot and to excess, from an early age. His friend Mark Judge’s high school yearbook states that one of his accomplishments was to be the founder of Alcoholics Unanimous, (I am stunned that his HS allowed that) which gives you some insight into the fact that they had no fear of being prosecuted for illegal under age drinking and felt no compunction to hide it from colleges or their own parents. Other browsing finds include Kavanaugh making light of getting drunk, a lot, as a law student at Yale. No doubt he drank his way through college as well. I don’t really care if people drink, I drink, but the evidence is that he drank to excess, a lot, and that he was to some extent a blackout drinker. I lived with some blackout drinkers in college and my view is that you are most likely to black out just those things that would shame you deeply the next morning if you remembered them. My God, what a privileged life he has led.
schrodingers_cat
So much for draining the swamp. Drunk face K is a swamp creature, born and bred to devour us peasants.
Emma
@Kay: Agreed. My friends and I… let’s just say that a career in politics ain’t in the cards. But this doesn’t sound like a grope-and-smack situation (me). Hand over the mouth, music loud enough to drown her screams? This is attempted rape. Period.
TenguPhule
@Barbara:
Wonder if he has any DUI in his record? Accidents quietly hushed up by the parents?
Hell, did the FBI know about this and was ordered to keep their mouths shut and give him clearance anyway?
I mean shit, this has become something of a pattern where Donald’s nominees ignore norms and means.
Hoodie
Note that Kavanaugh allegedly conspired with another guy to get her alone in the room. That goes well over the line between drunk, overly amorous wannabe teenage lover and creepy frat bro fitting the template for the heavy in your average 1980’s ex-SNL star vehicle. Not exactly Supreme Court material.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Point of order. Draining a swamp is actually an environmental disaster. He was telling us ahead of time what he was.
Brachiator
This is a great thread. I was also thinking about some of this over the weekend.
I think that anybody with a brain should believe this. And even for some serious offenses. Isn’t this why we sometimes seal the record of a juvenile defender? Haven’t many people accepted the idea that an adolescent’s brain is not sufficiently developed to always process moral decisions appropriately?
I sometimes call the appeal to “stupid things” and “youthful indiscretions” white people hypocrisy. I keep hearing moderate and conservative talk show hosts and pundits use “stupid” to dismiss or to minimize actions by high school and college kids even when these actions are clearly illegal. Most of this involves alcohol and drugs, but also underage gambling, assaults, driving under the influence and pranks that involve theft or property damage. There is even some acknowledgement that it is a rite of passage to flout these rules.
But only if you are white. If you are black or brown, these violations are evidence of un-redeemable criminality. I’ve even heard someone say that an undocumented person shouldn’t even get a traffic ticket if they want to “prove” that they should be permitted to stay in the US.
And of course, for some people, as you move up the social ladder, people start invoking the special pleading that “he’s basically a good kid,” and “well, we don’t want to harm his chances of going to college or otherwise rising to social prominence.” Someone less advantage? Well, lock them up and throw away the key, since they would never amount to much anyway.
So, I understand why some men and women might want to give Kavanaugh a break. It is standard operating procedure much of the time. But I also agree with those who say that his alleged offense was too serious. There is also the issue that he Kavanaugh never had to deal with the consequences of his actions, since he was never charged and convicted of anything. Nor do we know whether he committed one terrible offense, or if this might be a pattern of behavior.
Yes. There have been some thought-provoking essays on the degree to which this and other films exhibit behavior that is no longer acceptable. I think one of the stars of the film even weighed in on this.
sukabi
@PAM Dirac: product rollouts follow a script.
Opening in “market”
Develop / find product
Determine desire / need / viability of product
Announce product.
Testimonials (written and verbal) supporting product.
Special offer / trial period (actual consumer testing – feedback phase)
Some products make it past this process and some don’t. Kavanaugh is currently in the feedback phase and it’s falling apart because they skipped several steps, primary being his viability AND public desire.
He’s the late night “hocked on TV” sub-standard “gotta have it now, for the low, low price of just $19.95* plus a separate fee for processing and shipping”.
There’s a reason they were withholding his records and trying to jam him through and it’s not because he’s a good qualified product.
Kay
@MagdaInBlack:
Right. My middle son had what we call “police involvement” but not against the girls he was friends with. I think what people mean by “youthful indiscretions” are those impulsive things they do- running away from cops, shoplifting, being places they aren’t supposed to be, petty theft or “damaging”- property damage. I used to watch him and it was like he was operating out of his spinal cord- he just didn’t think. That’s what they grow out of.
The Midnight Lurker
@Major Major Major Major: I wasn’t complaining! I wasn’t complaining! Don’t hurt me! Take the money! Take it, please!
Kay
@MagdaInBlack:
Like Obama, said he tried cocaine. I think he said that. Anyway, no one said “disqualified” because that’s in the youthful indiscretions basket. Or an accident. Laura Bush. There are distinctions among these things. They’re not all the same.
Major Major Major Major
@sukabi: this is great.
@The Midnight Lurker: wasn’t trying to single you out!
TenguPhule
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
To be fair, its not palatable so much as the universe was intentionally designed so that failure is the only option.
Barbara
@Brachiator: I am not going to even consider whether illegal underage behavior more than 35 years ago should be “ignored” until, at a minimum, Ted Cruz apologizes for suggesting that playing in a punk rock band should be a disqualification for electoral office.
eemom
@Barbara:
Yes — and yet again, I ask, how is the “denial” of a blackout drunk that he did something worth squat?? And why is THAT very obvious point not being included in any of the media noise about his so called “categorical denial”?
Gravenstone
@Nicole:
Had he done time in juvy, I question whether he’d be the rightwing asshole he is today. Experiencing incarceration at any level can give someone a significant attitude check and appreciation for consequences. Of course, it could also have made him even worse, so skepticism is advised.
The Midnight Lurker
Uh-oh, again! It appears Ford isn’t the only one. There are vague twitter rumors of a young lady in a ‘clerkship’ with Kavanaugh? Anyone out there hear about this?
sukabi
@Roger Moore: I’m not seeing the down side there.
We all would have benefited from that outcome, including Mr Kavanaugh, who could have learned there is a down side to criminal activity.
Brachiator
@japa21:
Not necessarily. The Court Public Opinion, Instant Judgment Division, tends toward zero tolerance. Ask Al Franken.
And had Kavanaugh been actually charged with a crime, I don’t think that his attorneys would advise him to offer an apology. Unfortunately, politics is adversarial, and I bet that all the conservative political strategists urge that denial, denial, denial is the only way to go.
Barbara
@eemom: The testimony of someone who has had numerous incidents of blackout drinking isn’t worth squat if it pertains to behavior when he was drunk. Honestly, I think they should be querying him quite a bit more about his drinking in general.
TenguPhule
@eemom: And how does a blackout drunk pass screening for being a federal judge?
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
Politico is now saying 5 of the women are still supporting him, 2 declined to comment, and apparently the rest have not responded. https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/16/trump-kavanaugh-allegations-response-826069 The article names the 5 supporters.
Brachiator
@Barbara:
Ted Cruz is a punk, who should be hit with a rock.
Nicole
@Gravenstone: Valid point about consequences, though I could also see a situation where he’d fall in with incarcerated fellow white supremacists. And, had either of those things happened, we wouldn’t even know his name today.
eemom
And again, what to me is the absolute no brainer of the difference between kids doing stupid shit and a kid trying to rape someone. I cannot BELIEVE that anybody in their right mind would even debate that.
It is also my opinion that a person who rapes or attempts rape is deeply, deeply fucked as a human far beyond anything that has to do with drinking or with age. That’s one of the reasons I’ve never been one to knee jerk “believe” stories like UVA and Duke lacrosse. A guy can be the drunkest, assholest of assholes….that has nothing to do with the question of whether he possesses that particular sick criminality.
MoxieM
I would be a lot more sympathetic to the, “well it was in HS and juvenile minds aren’t developed” etc argument– if — and big if, the outcome of his particular sort of juvenile high-jinks didn’t result in somebody else’s potential (likely) life-long consequences.* To wit: a guy who likes to “pressure” women for sex, and then deny them the right to abortion? Aw hell no.
Not even in the category of some guy who got regularly stinking high/drunk, or spraypainted the Principal’s house, or let the air out of the tires of the school bus or some damned pranks.
See? there are are stupid high school pranks that don’t involve bodily assault on another person, and I think that’s an important boundary.
*general point, not the specific Ford case, since thankfully, she got away.
eric
I am close to this guy’s age, and the crew i ran with was filled with heavy underage drinkers, but none of us ever thought that a gang rape was cool. Most of us knew that you propped up the head of any drunk sleeping person (boy or girl, man or woman) to protect them from choking if they threw up. ah, the good old days.
eemom
@TenguPhule:
Ya got me.
eric
@eemom: white, federalist, christian….need i go on?
JaneE
I went to college in the 60’s, and more than one girl in my dorm was date-raped. Without vigilante justice there would have been none at all. So far as I know, the rapist never complained about the beating he took.
It was also “common knowledge” that the local tech college with 99.9% male enrollment was not a place to look for dates. On the contrary, when “exchanges” between dorms were arranged, the girls were warned that you did not want to be alone with a guy from there. One of the seniors in our dorm was engaged to a TA at that school, and she was constantly explaining that he was not like the undergrads there, he was a nice guy and she trusted him with her friends. That she felt the need to defend someone who was in grad school there says a lot about the reputation of the men from that school. I can imagine a pricey male prep school would be much the same.
The Twitter is saying there may be another woman out there, too.
eemom
@eric:
You mean…..you mean……the screening process for federal judgehood is inherently biased, unreliable and unjust?? Say it ain’t so, Joe….
Aleta
I think this phrase misrepresents what folks are doing. Think of it as emotional sound, like the sigh or groan of a writer whose words showed up in print differently. It’s talking to each other, as social animals do, and making correction as writers want to do.
MCA1
@chopper: That’s it in a nutshell. Shouldn’t we be applying a higher standard to one of the 9 most important positions in the entire f’ing judicial system? I thought Republicans were the party of boy scouts and unimpeachable moral rigidity and all that. Conservative jurists are a dime a dozen. Go find one who doesn’t have this sort of thing in their past. Is that really asking so much? Is Brett Kavanaugh really that much of a towering legal genius? Of course he’s not.
Absolutely, an indiscretion as a teenager shouldn’t necessarily keep one from getting a decent college education or a driver’s license or a passport or a high paying job. But (a), we’re not talking about trying to buy cigarettes before he turned 18, or having a fake ID in college, and (b) this is the Supreme Court of the United States, the world’s most august judicial body, not the admissions office of UVa or wherever. People are prevented from getting security clearances for a helluva lot less than this. We can and should do better than the sort of character that would be revealed if Kavanaugh did in fact engage in what he’s accused of. I never acted that way as a teenage boy, and neither did 95% of the other lawyers in America who went to highly esteemed law schools.
Kavanaugh has every right to try and clear his name, and bully for him if he can do so without smearing Ford unfairly in the process. I can see a set of facts that looks like misunderstanding and the fumblings of dumb youth, crossed signals fueled by alcohol and raging hormones and whatever else, instead of incipient evil creepy frat boy rapist intent. And given the mist of time, there’s probably not enough here to definitively conclude any other way. But that’s what hearings are for.
Think of it this way: even if we stipulated that Ford was generally untrustworthy and of questionable character (neither of which appear to be the case), there’s still a cloud over Kavanaugh that needs to be either removed, or is sufficient to keep him off the Supreme Court. It’s the Supreme Court, for crying out loud!
Litlebritdifrnt
That brilliant legal mind (/s/) Orly Taitz, just posted on Twitter that the Senate should have all 65 witnesses who signed that letter come in and testify as to Kavaugh’s character. I responded (I know I am I am bad person) “Great idea Orly! They should take your advice. Let me see 65 witnesses. Half a day each, 130 days. Take out the weekends, holidays and recesses we are talking two years before all of the witnesses get through testifying. Great Idea!”
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
An asteroid is a rock.
TenguPhule
@eemom:
Well there’s your problem right there.
ruemara
@The Midnight Lurker: Heard about it.
maryQ
“We discussed many stupid things we’d done and said back during the Reagan administration”
Same here. And therein lies the difference between us and him. We acknowledge that the shit we did was stupid. We are genuinely sorry for the times that our stupid shit hurt someone. And I, like you, probably did nothing criminal, or at least violently criminal (yeah, ok, sorry City Park Security Guard, me and my friends were, in fact, stoned when we trespassed that night).
I am troubled by the fact that an unsubstantiated allegation can derail someones career. But a) there is a ton of credibility to her story and b) Jesus, this is a violent crime we are talking about-most people just don’t do this, and c)zero acknowledgement that this was a f*cked up thing to do. So it’s less about his behavior then, and more about his behavior now.
Kelly
@MCA1:
Yep.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I would have gone with Age of Consent by New Order for the musical accompaniment for this post. From the album Power, Corruption & Lies.
Major Major Major Major
@Aleta: much like I didn’t expect complaining about the complaints to make them stop.
The Moar You Know
Dead thread but gotta toss this out there: BULLSHIT. If your parents divorce in high school, and it fucks up your grades, you’re probably socioeconomic toast for the rest of your life. Same if you caught a drug habit. Same if you got raped…oh,. whoops. You get my point. There’s a bunch of shit that can happen to you in high school that isn’t your fault or doing that can ruin your fucking life forever, so let’s not start handing out exemptions for things that are your fault or doing, like:
raping someone
killing someone
abusing/killing animals
swatting someone
killing someone in a car accident when you were wasted
so many other heinous things
Quite a few of these get sealed when you turn 18, and I don’t think they should be. You can’t tell me that you murdered someone at age 16, then God hit a big reset button when you were 18 and you’re all good to be around my dog or kid now. Nuh-uh. That’s not how shit works. If Captain Bootlicker who’s up for the Big Court Seat locked him and his buddy and some girl in a room and turned the volume up so no one would hear anything, I don’t even need to hear the rest. That fucker ought to be serving French fries out in that desert hellhole truck stop town that’s between Barstow and Vegas, AT BEST, and thank his personal Jesus that decent people didn’t just “take care of business” where his raping ass was concerned.
Brachiator
@The Moar You Know:
Actually, it sometimes is.
And sometimes, with good reason.
Haroldo
@burnspbesq: Couldn’t agree with you more. I’m strongly in the fuckem by any means possible camp, however.
Gravenstone
@TenguPhule: So is a planet, viewed from a far enough distance.
Immanentize
I went cow tipping once.
Shakti
I’m sure it’s been said multiple times but based on what we know of Kavanaugh, I’m not sure he should’ve been admitted to the bar of any state let alone appointed to SCOTUS.
From AmericanBar.org
Financial irresponsiblity:
The Mystery of Brett Kavanaugh’s Baseball-Ticket Debt
How did the nominee for the Supreme Court spend $60,000 to $200,000 on Washington Nationals seats—and how did he pay it off so quickly?
Lack of candor:–
Did Brett Kavanaugh lie under oath
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Major Major Major Major:
LOL. But true.
Brachiator
@TenguPhule:
And oddly enough, Ted Cruz is an ass on ‘roids.
smintheus
It wasn’t just an alleged attempt at rape. It was a criminal conspiracy to rape the victim, and a criminal conspiracy to lock her up and hold her by force against her will. There’s a list of at least 6 interconnected crimes that Kavanaugh and Judge are accused of. Republicans are saying they’re OK with Republican judges committing multiple felonies.
These are not youthful indiscretions, they’re serious crimes. Nobody gets tell others that they have to give somebody a pass for felonious activity committed at any age.
Chip Daniels
As I mentioned on another thread, I am all for sealing a person’a past once they reach the age of maturity.
But we don’t live in that world.
We live in a world where we sentence 12 year old boys to life in prison or shoot them dead outright. Where toddlers are forced to represent themselves at immigration hearings.
So fuck it.
MoxieM
@Immanentize: Tried to hang strings of corn cobs on the Minute Man statue. (v. stoned.) Does that count?
WaterGirl
@MoxieM: Let’s not make this a discussion of juvenile high jinx – I know where you’re coming from, but it doesn’t help make this not about young boys just being boys.
WarMunchkin
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
As a male who has also done some things as I regard as horrific and harmful and requiring atonement, none of my ignorance ever rose to anything amounting force, coercion or deception. What happened here was a major life altering crime, beyond anything resembling a usual microagggression, only stopped by an accidental samaritan who was also an accomplice to the crime.
Kavanaugh should have gone to jail for that. And now we wait for the others he has preyed upon to come forth. There’s never just one.
Immanentize
@WaterGirl: I see it differently. I think discussion about what actually are foolish juvenile pranks and foolish behaviors — even intoxicated stupid things — puts attempted rape into the appropriate light which is completely beyond the pale.
Uncle Cosmo
IANAL, & I have not been following this closely, but —
Regardless of the (lack of a) statute of limitations, It seems to me there would need to be a lot more evidence (beyond & separate from Professor Ford’s statements, which I emphatically am not questioning) that this, um, interaction had occurred to reach the level where a competent prosecutor would be comfortable charging Kavanagh. At this distance in time, there seems little chance of that (short of the alleged accomplice confessing, which ain’t gonna happen).
If I were Professor Ford, I would be somewhat concerned that Kavanagh is “lawyering up” not to defend himself against criminal charges but to bring a civil action claiming libel or defamation of character or somesuch in case he is not confirmed & seeking a shitload in damages. Which could be a veiled (or not so veiled) threat: Withdraw the allegation or prepare to be sued until your eyeballs pop.
If one of yinz Jack-Alls can lawsplain’ to me why I’m FOS here, I’d be most obliged.
WarMunchkin
@The Moar You Know:
This is complicated, and it happens regularly. My friend’s father was murdered by a 17 year old black child just shy of his 18th birthday in California. It was a robbery attempt that escalated. The argument by the defense is that the lifestyle he’d been placed in as a child and institutional racism put him on a straight line towards a life of violence eventually. The only real way to let him live a life that breaks the cycle of violence would be to let those records be sealed. Otherwise that’s it for life; he missed a guarantee of that by a few weeks.
Of course my friend is livid, and I don’t know how I feel about it. But it happens all the time.
J R in WV
@Elizabelle:
His wife and daughters are not in nearly the anguish Dr Ford has been in for 30 or so years now. Won’t ever be. We hope. The GOP doesn’t care, but we do.
MoxieM
@WaterGirl: Sorry what? Did you see my earlier, and longer comment about exactly that? My point was specifically that because his “adolescent infraction” may or might under some circumstance have led to a pregnancy that he would now refuse to “grant” the woman control over termination, it is all the more serious.
Latter comment was spoof.
OK, thanks.
sgrAstar
@japa21: I couldn’t agree with you more! If Kavanaugh had behaved with the slightest humility, empathy, and self-awareness, he would have apologized to Fred Gutterberg in person, on camera…and he would have admitted the truth of the latest accusation and expressed deep (maybe even sincere) regrets. But no. His instincts are terrible and exactly what you’d expect from a shallow, vicious republican apparatchik who has his eyes on the prize. Let’s not give it to him. OWHH. :)
J R in WV
@MCA1:
Nope. Our ‘Supreme Court’ thinks money is speech, million dollar donations are not bribes, Union organizers are commie traitors, and Black folks don’t deserve to have their right to vote protected. That is not a set of opinions from the world’s most august judicial body, not at all.
Maybe the International Criminal Court, hearing cases against some of the more famous war criminals, not American, of course. Mustache Bolton is currently threatening the ICC if they dare to indict an American international war criminal, which he justifies, well, somehow. But not Our Supreme Court, not at all, today. I’ll give them two or three points better than Dred Scott, maybe. Or maybe not. They weren’t unanimous decisions, after all, that’s worth a couple of points from dead last.
WaterGirl
@MoxieM: Did not retain that any earlier comment was yours. Didn’t mean to offend.
Ian R
@J R in WV: Very true. On the other hand, the people who will be voting on whether or not to confirm him have to pretend for political reasons that they do believe the USSC to be the most august judicial body in the world. How can anyone who plausibly pretends to believe that vote in favor of him?
Amir Khalid
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
You mean, like this?