There are so many ways to *legally* dodge (avoid) taxes in real estate. Striking that even given all those legal loopholes, the Trump family still managed to repeatedly break tax law, assuming NYT reporting is correct
— Catherine Rampell (@crampell) October 3, 2018
Well worth the time it takes to read the whole thing. From the NYTimes, “Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes as He Reaped Riches From His Father”:
President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found.
Mr. Trump won the presidency proclaiming himself a self-made billionaire, and he has long insisted that his father, the legendary New York City builder Fred C. Trump, provided almost no financial help.
But The Times’s investigation, based on a vast trove of confidential tax returns and financial records, reveals that Mr. Trump received the equivalent today of at least $413 million from his father’s real estate empire, starting when he was a toddler and continuing to this day.
These maneuvers met with little resistance from the Internal Revenue Service, The Times found. The president’s parents, Fred and Mary Trump, transferred well over $1 billion in wealth to their children, which could have produced a tax bill of at least $550 million under the 55 percent tax rate then imposed on gifts and inheritances.
The Trumps paid a total of $52.2 million, or about 5 percent, tax records show…
But if you’re pressed for time, they’ve provided a Shorter: “11 Takeaways From The Times’s Investigation Into Trump’s Wealth”
Think about how dumb in business Trump has to be to get a huge fortune by inheritance, defraud the gov’t of maybe a half billion dollars, and he _still_ ended up indebt to the crime syndicate that runs Russia.
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) October 3, 2018
we’ve spent 18 months investigating the Trump fortune. But if you don’t have that kinda time right now, here’s 4 short, interesting videos explaining how Fred Trump made his children rich.https://t.co/cASblRNDAH
— gabriel dance (@gabrieldance) October 2, 2018
Phillip Bump, at the Washington Post, on “The two pillars of Trump’s origin myth dislodged by the Times’s new investigation”:
… That “$1 million” loan Trump got from his father was, in fact, much higher, the Times reported. We already knew that it was probably higher than reported, thanks to prior reporting that put the figure closer to $14 million. But the Times had it much higher — with Trump getting a seed of $60.7 million from his father.
Why does that matter? For one thing, as the story notes, it makes his subsequent financial success seem much less dramatic. Had Trump invested that loan in a fund that simply tracked the S&P 500, he would today be worth just shy of $2 billion, about $1 billion less than what Forbes estimates he is actually worth. “Loans” of $1 million or $14 million are less dramatic in their effect…
But there’s another bit of mythology that the Times seems to hobble. Trump’s presentation of himself is as a savvy manipulator of the rules. On the campaign trail, he would argue that his use of offshore labor to produce his products or his contributions to politicians were examples not of hypocrisy but of his shrewdly employing loopholes to his company’s own benefit. His campaign even waved off reports about his not paying income taxes by saying he had a “fiduciary responsibility” to pay as little tax as possible.
What the Times presents, though, is a picture not of shrewd manipulation of the rules but an at-times willful disregard for them. Fred Trump is the architect of the effort to shield his children’s inheritances from excessive taxes, but Trump is presented as both a participant in the effort and, at times, an innovator…
Anyone else remember the slur He’d steal the pennies off a dead man’s eyes?
NYT: When his father was 85, Trump tried to change his father's will to benefit himself. His father was alarmed, wouldn't consent, stripped Trump of sole control over his estate. pic.twitter.com/vVmf4l4Kg2
— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) October 2, 2018
In a functioning government, the NYT story would result in immediate bipartisan legislation forcing Trump to release his tax returns. In a functioning government.
— Schooley (@Rschooley) October 2, 2018
Statement from the NY State Taxation authority, regarding this blockbuster NYT story: "The Tax Department is reviewing the allegations in the NYT article and is vigorously pursuing all appropriate avenues of investigation." https://t.co/rACzwJPPx0
— David Fahrenthold (@Fahrenthold) October 2, 2018
White House @PressSec slams bombshell New York Times report on sources of Trump's wealth, calling it both "highly defamatory" and "very boring." https://t.co/kyy7wXLW8H
— Christina Wilkie (@christinawilkie) October 3, 2018
That said, you would not BELIEVE how many attack ads in House/gov/Senate races are about how such-and-such candidate didn't pay all their taxes. https://t.co/AjkvGODKwu
— Dave Weigel (@daveweigel) October 2, 2018
Yet, at the same time it is also an accidental confessional and partially indicting of the Times’ itself.
Tucked among the 13,000 words is a single paragraph about the Times’ role in erecting the false edifice of the swaggering, young impresario who never was.
2/
— The Hoarse Whisperer (@HoarseWisperer) October 3, 2018
And it’s not just the NYTimes poking holes in Trump’s boasts…
"Much as he’s trying—and he’s definitely trying—Donald Trump is not getting richer off the presidency. Just the opposite. His net worth, by our calculation, has dropped from $4.5 billion in 2015 to $3.1 billion the last two years" https://t.co/KzvQJDnTg0
— Philip Rucker (@PhilipRucker) October 2, 2018
Unless he’s at the UN, of course https://t.co/ZdLmUSx6HW
— Alessandra T Codinha (@ATCodinha) October 3, 2018
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
OT:
When did it become a thing for sitcoms to be centered around 20 somethings and not 30 somethings or older?
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Friends?
Kelly
There seems to be some questions about the feds indicting a sitting US President. Would the state of New York be able to indict him on state charges?
Frankensteinbeck
I’m not sure he even got the last laugh in the election. Yes, he won, but it turned to shit for him so fast the walls and ceiling are coated.
Jerzy Russian
Most people would have their asses hounded by the IRS for actions that are a small fraction of what Trump did. Can we have some white collar criminal trials now?
kindness
It’s raining here in N. Cal. Finally.
columbusqueen
This only confirms my belief that the Cohen case will end in a RICO complaint against the Trump Organization. The Trumps always operated like a mob family, now they’re going to go down like one.
NotMax
Newsflash: Water is wet.
SFAW
@Jerzy Russian:
Sure. Right after the Senate convicts him on the Articles of Impeachment.
James E Powell
Maybe it’s beating a dead horse, but I have to believe that the NYT could have turned up this story sometime prior November 2016. Or perhaps I’m being unfair. Maybe with all their available staff were working on the 800th critical story about Hillary’s emails.
Adam L Silverman
@Kelly: Everything in The NY Times expose is past the statute of limitations at both the Federal and state level. That time limit is six years from the date of the offense. There is no statute of limitations for civil suits to claw back what was supposed to be paid plus interest. If the state of New York, or even the IRS, decide to take action on this it will be on the civil side. However, it is highly likely that the President never adjusted his behavior after his father died. So there may be more recent activity that he could be criminally investigated and potentially charged for.
SFAW
@James E Powell:
Asshole. You KNOW it was only 749 stories.
Trust a libtard to lie and exaggerate
NotMax
@James E Powell
Apparently the Trump-attached person in whose basement boxes and boxes of records and documents were found (and the story relied upon) was still alive then.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s what I thought. Still, now that I think of it, there are still plenty of shows that focus on 30 somethings but those are usually family sitcoms like The Middle and the Goldbergs.
So, unpopular opinion time: Kevin James was funny in King of Queens
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
You keep this type of behavior up and on the ban list you go!
Omnes Omnibus
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
How the fuck would I know?
Frankensteinbeck
I read the article on Trump’s net worth. It’s neat. Summary for the tl;dr crowd:
Trump is raking it in making corrupt millions in all the ways we’ve talked about. It’s not enough. Advertisers want nothing to do with him. Major companies don’t want to book his properties. His rental buildings are empty. Membership of his clubs is way down. His brands aren’t selling, and partners are pulling out of them. Rich and poor, people don’t want Trump anything because he’s hated. MAGA stuff doesn’t come anywhere near making up for it. Toss on top of that annoying extra security his high end customers have to wade through, some crappy real estate decisions, and public scrutiny determining that he inflated the value of some of his properties, and in balance he’s losing money.
SiubhanDuinne
SNORT. I hadn’t paid attention to or even noticed the identity of the front-pager of this post, but the second I saw this line I knew it just had to be Anne Laurie!
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis (1959 – 1963) focused on high school age and later college aged folk.
Just sayin’.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Um… Everybody Loves Raymond was really funny. Is that better?
Dr. Ronnie James, D.O.
An interesting twist: the journalist David Cay Johnston was a reporter who covered Trump deeply in the 80s and 90s, his early 2015 article “21 Questions for Donald Trump” is like the Rosetta Stone of Trump scandals. He has since become a leading author on taxes / tax policy. So what he thinks of all this I am just about dying to know.
Jeffro
@columbusqueen:
Thank you, been saying this for 2+ years now. The only thing the Org really does is launder money and avoid paying taxes. RICO, RICO, RIIIIIICO! Take it all from him and his scuzzy kids and see what they think about “lock. her. up!” after that.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
No, no, it is not.
Not worthy of a ban hammer. Maybe a whack with a wet ban noodle.
;)
Jerzy Russian
@SFAW: I have told you millions of times before not to exaggerate!
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: I think he’s referring to when it became such that it was a lot of sitcoms. Like if you asked when situational comedy became a thing period, only a smartass would say Aristophanes.
NotMax
@Jeffro
Yup. The grift that keeps on giving.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@NotMax:
Bob Denver was on that show. I read that a lot of the characters for Scooby-Doo were based on those in The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis.
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: No, no it wasn’t.
TS (the original)
O/T
I’m going to be positive about Jeff Flake at the minute. I think he voted Kavanaugh out of committee – with the need for an FBI check – to give himself some company on the floor. In committee he is the deciding vote to reject Kavanaugh, in the Senate he needs some company. If he refused to vote him out of committee, McConnell could still have called for a vote – and there would have been no further discussion. By what Flake did, he is forcing at least 2 dems and 2 other republicans to show how they are voting. Forcing Collins to not only say she is concerned – but vote to prove it – is a good thing. Murkowski may have always voted NO, but she needs company for it to matter.
If Flake’s Senate legacy is that he kept a mysoginist drunk off the SCOTUS that should be good for further ambitions.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@NotMax:
Didn’t you see the episode where Ray’s parents backed their car in his living room? Easily the best episode of the series.
Adam L Silverman
@Dr. Ronnie James, D.O.: Seek and ye shall find. Ask and ye shall receive…
Jay
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
No, you need real comedy, like “Still Game”, or “Kim’s Convenience”
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
Basically, yeah. Friends was probably the turning point.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Having experienced a minivan driving through the front of my store (and if I’d been standing where I was five seconds prior I wouldn’t be here today), not exactly a laff inducing situation.
Trying to scrounge up sheets of plywood to board up the windows and door, on a Sunday night, was… not fun.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Fresh Prince of Bel Air?
Bill Arnold
Has this been linked? It’s well-written, by Eric Levitz. I particularly appreciate that it’s full of relevant hyperlinks. Hoping that this is an emerging style.
Kavanaugh’s Partisan Rage Was Disqualifying – Even If He’s Innocent
I think the blatant obvious lying is disqualifying (some of it being objectively confirmed as lying), but that is apparently old-school.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Much of it still holds up. Some of the later episodes were positively surreal.
debbie
Imagine doing that to the man who gave you everything you have. I don’t care about statute of limitations; I am glad for anything that tarnishes this prick.
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Omnes Omnibus
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I have a fast car and sharp knives.
M. Bouffant
DOG BITES MAN!
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Sonic Boom?
Kelly
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks
Mary G
M. Bouffant
Really, NYT? “Legendary”? Even now?
There is no hope. (Not that there ever was any.)
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Hey, Seinfeld focused on 12-year-olds. They just happened to inhabit 30-something-year-old bodies.
;)
SRW1
Maybe Trump could send Kush-Kush to, like, Saudi-Arabia after some protection money.
There’s got to be more opportunities in that business than merely Qatar!
oldgold
@Adam L Silverman:
True, the statutes of limitation will not allow the IRS or New York’s DoR
to proceed against Trump for the gross tax frauds reported by the NYT.
But, leopards do not change their spots. I suspect the Trumps are currentlyengaged in the same or very similar tax frauds. As such, the NYT’s report is a road map for where tax authorities and financial journalists should now be looking.
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Huh?
Steve in the ATL
@NotMax: maybe Goku can ask his great grandparents about that show
smintheus
Trump supposedly sent out a text message to everyone today. Was the one sent to Christine Blasey Ford insulting, or did Trump manage to be civil?
Steve in the ATL
@Major Major Major Major: nah, it didn’t really take off until Moliere
NotMax
@Steve in the ATL
Eh? Speak up, sonny.
:)
Yutsano
@Mary G: Oh I do miss her around these parts. But she’s fun on Twitter.
Bill Arnold
@TS (the original):
Lying hyper-partisan misogynistic angry drunk. Perhaps a sexual predator too, and worse.
DJ Trump’s strong dislike of drunks has been AWOL, not sure why.
Frustrated, since he’ll destroy the Supreme Court if confirmed. (It was partially destroyed in Bush v Gore, but not everyone agrees on that.) Especially if he doesn’t recuse himself for all partisan cases.
All the Ways a Justice Kavanaugh Would Have to Recuse Himself (By Laurence H. Tribe, Oct. 1, 2018)
Uncle Cosmo
@SiubhanDuinne: Now my advice for those who die (Taxman!)
Declare the pennies on your eyes (Taxman!)
Cause I’m the taxman, yeah, I’m the taxman
And you’re working for no one but me (Taxman!)…
Kay
It’s probably really important that they start enforcing tax collection re: wealthy and powerful people, because if they;re scofflaws then ordinary people will stop paying taxes, too. This thing runs on consent. They’re aren’t enough regulators to go after every tax cheat if ordinary people all start behaving like decadent and corrupt Trump family members.
No one really likes paying taxes, but we do it and no one has to haul us into court to get the payment. They should have to pay up it too. If they don’t, it’s a joke and eventually people will figure that out.
There’s a cost to this and it’s not just the taxes the Trumps didn’t pay. Unlike the Trumps, the vast majority of people pay what they owe and they do it without the IRS seizing assets or imposing penalties or prosecuting. That honor system has to keep working or they better hire a shitload of agents.
Steve in the ATL
@Bill Arnold: and get no one can make a Supreme Court justice recuse himself. Ask Scalia about that.
lamh36
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I LOVE Kevin James. I have no idea why. I think he’s funny, and personable, and cute. I’m sure I’ve said before that I would TOTALLY date him in real life if he was anything like the characters he plays.
Don’t judge me!!
Please dont’ tell me he’s a wingnut.
Adam L Silverman
@oldgold: That’s why these were the final two sentences of that comment.
lamh36
ugh…this guy and Flake…make my eyes roll…HARD
Adam L Silverman
@smintheus:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: my father was a pretty successful businessman, so people often assume he’s a right-winger, he very much is not. Once, I was probably 13 or 14, one of my cousins was bragging about all the side jobs he did that didn’t report so he didn’t pay taxes on a good chunk of his income. I could tell my father was getting angry and I later asked him why, he said “I have to pay the taxes he doesn’t”
Brickley Paiste
@James E Powell:
And you believe the hundreds of thousands of pages of documents on which they rely were available to the NYT in 2016?
What do you base that on?
Kay
Of all the norms that have gone by the wayside I still find it shocking that the President and his family don’t pay their taxes.
I mean, wow. It really calls the credibility of the whole system into question. WTF? We all pay but they don’t? This is now accepted? And everyone knows. That’s why they won’t release their tax returns. Everyone knows why they won’t. Yet tax time will come around again and the vast majority of us will pay without sanctions or NYTimes exposes or indictments and the Trumps will continue with the fraud.
Bill Arnold
Greece! https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2012/09/04/in-flagrante
(Conservatives like to make fun of Greece.)
Uncle Cosmo
@NotMax: One night as I lay in bed reading in my first apartment a runaway Chevy Monza slammed through the wrought iron patio railing & came to a stop 6″ short of the sliding glass doors. Fortunately said doors opened onto the living rm down the hall, or the maintenance guys might still be chipping pieces of yerstruly out of the ceiling… Funny to realize that was over 40 years ago.
Mart
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: My wife gets in bed and watches K of Q reruns every night. Once I arrived to our hotel room in Germany after my wife, and she had K of Q on in German with no English subtitles. I went to shut off and she protested, even though we speak nil German.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Sonic Boom
The writers even made a joke in an episode about “a poorly written article about the mayor’s email server”.
SFAW
@M. Bouffant:
Were it any reputable paper other than the FTFTFNYT, I’d wonder whether they were using “Legendary” the way baseball fans talk about “Legendary Hitter Mario Mendoza..” But since the second “TF” in the abbreviation stands for “Trump Fellating,” I already know the answer.
debbie
@Kay:
Taxes are for little people.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No one likes sending them thousands of dollars, particularly when I’m sending it to low quality Trump hires who will just spend it on chartered jets, but we all do it! MOST people pay. The vast, vast majority. Because, guess what? If millions of people behaved like this there aren’t enough regulators in the country to police them all. It ONLY works because we do it without being forced to. If we had to be forced they couldn’t manage it- there are too many of us.
They better pray that compliance continues because without it the whole thing collapses.
opiejeanne
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Why would you think Adam would know about that?
Aleta
lamh36
Uncle Cosmo
@NotMax: Like the one where Dobie is raising chickens on growth hormone in the basement for his science project & eventually Mr. Gillis has to take a shotgun to the human-size chicken head poking thru the basement door? Yee-haw! :D
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@opiejeanne:
I didn’t. I just wanted to plug it.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They print the unpaid property taxes in the newspaper here every year. You won’t find any business owners on that list, because they believe that would harm their reputation. They have to keep believing that. If they don’t believe it this whole fragile structure comes crashing down.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@Kay: I suggested in an earlier thread someone is crafting or has crafted an article about his cleverly cheating death ( (taxes) and striking a blow for the downtrodden minority (wealthy-americans).
sralloway
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Maynard G Krebs. The G is silent. His middle name is Walter. Loved that show as a kid.
VOR
@Kay: Back in 2012 I realized I was paying a higher tax rate than either Obama or Mitt Romney. And you know Romney re-filed his taxes after he lost on a more favorable basis.
zhena gogolia
@sralloway:
There was also Al’s cousin Steve Franken as Chatsworth Osborne III. I loved him. And Tuesday Weld as Thalia!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I went to Jr. High with Bob’s son, nice kid.
Ohio Mom
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I had never heard that Dobie Gillis was the basis for the Scooby Doo characters but now that you say it, it’s obvious.
I don’t remember all the Dobie Gillis character’s names but there was a beauty Dobie was in love with, who was turned into Daphne; a smart and nerdy gal named Zelda, who was turned into Velma; a rich fellow, turned into Fred; Maynard G. Krebs is obviously the model for Shaggy — but who is Dobie? I guess Scooby himself.
I loved Dobie Gillis, only tolerated Scooby for Ohio Son’s sake.
NotMax
@sralloway
“Work?!?”
Named for his Aunt Walter.
:)
@Uncle Cosmo
Yeah, it seems that once they knew it would be the final season all bets were off.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: wasn’t Dobie Gillis the show Warren Beatty was on that he later kind of Kavanaugh’d about having been on?
Sally Field was always straight fucking up about Gidget and Sister Betrille
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: NO!
Uncle Cosmo
@sralloway: The HS beatnik who, whenever the dreaded W-word was spoken in his presence, echoed it in an anguished broken-voiced shout: W*O*R*K!!
Kay
@lamh36:
That’s a bad sign. When they roll out the sanctimonious frauds to “soften the blow” that means they’re getting ready to deliver one. A blow.
I truly loathe how conservative men treat assaults on women. They adopt this patronizing, smarmy “feeling” language that is itself insulting and belittling. It’s an assault. It’s like punching someone in the face. Because it happens to women it doesn’t somehow become complex and psychological. Maybe they should stop trying to “understand” and just put it on the “assault” basket. That’s easy. No grabbing people and holding them down and trying to hurt them. That’s against the rules. Are they opposed to assaults- whether they’re face punching or raping? Okay, then. If she had said Kavanaugh walked up to her and smashed her in the face conservative men wouldn’t need a seminar to get that. Why do they need it with this?
tobie
I don’t think I saw a link to this piece today in the New York Daily News from a conservative, retired judge in NY named Robert Smith. In the op ed he explains why in spite of his conservative leanings, he now opposes Kavanaugh’s nomination.
smintheus
@Kay: Nixon didn’t pay his income taxes. Hence his famous promise:
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Steve in the ATL:
He’s still dead, Steve.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
anybody else got an earworm of the Scooby Doo theme song now?
Uncle Cosmo
@zhena gogolia: Chatsworth Osborne, Jr,, IIRC – & IMDB confirms,
lamh36
@Kay: it’s maddening….like..oh…really Sasse…what can you do…oh I know…VOTE NO FUQ’ER!
Keep ya damn stories and just FUQ’N VOTE NO…but who amongst us really believe Sasse is gonna vote NO?
I’d say NO ONE!
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yeah, I think he was on it. Too lazy to check!
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Fuck you all. I posted songs below and no one cared. Suffer. Suffer in hell.
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
Originally written as Milton Armitage, played by Warren Beatty!
The Osborne mansion also housed a complete radio station, installed by “a handyman who worked here for a time, name of Marconi or something.” Mrs. Osborne was given some of the plummiest lines and the actress played them to the hilt.
zhena gogolia
@Uncle Cosmo:
So sue me. It’s been 50 years or so.
Uncle Cosmo
@?BillinGlendaleCA: And he’s still a scumbag. I don’t care how many operas he went to with The Notorious RBG,
tobie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: No, no, no, don’t go down that path with that damned cartoon dog!
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Why such a strong reaction?
Uncle Cosmo
@zhena gogolia: 55, unless you saw it in reruns – but I remembered! :p
?BillinGlendaleCA
@smintheus: Actually Nixon got audited(and released his tax returns during the audit) and had to pay up.
Kay
@lamh36:
Back in the day, when men weren’t prosecuted for hitting their wives, men started this elaborate analysis in the legal system. What to do, what to do? Men were hitting their wives and it fell into this grey area! It was full of emotions- well, their emotions, mostly, but emotions. Then one or two women suggested they just enforce existing assault laws whether people were married to the assaulter or not. Eureka! It was no longer agonizing! It was pretty simple, really. You can’t beat the shit out of your neighbor OR your wife.
Republican men should try that. Keep it simple. Keep their emotions out of it. Back to basics, for the slow learners who didn’t get it the first time, in 1959.
burnspbesq
@oldgold:
Wrong yet again. There are three relevant statutes of limitation, only one of which you have correctly stated.
The statutes of limitation on the crimes of income tax evasion, subscribing to a false return, etc., have indeed run. See Internal Revenue Code §. 6531.
However, on the civil side, in the case of a false or fraudulent return with intent to evade, the additional tax due can be assessed at any time. See Code § 6501(c)(1).
And the 10-year statute of limitation on collection doesn’t start to run until the date of assessment. See Code § 6502.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Omnes Omnibus: was one of them Three Coins in a Fountain?
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
Mrs. Osborne (to Chatsworth): You’re a nasty boy. You’re going to end up like your grandfather. You know what he died of? (comedic beat) Nastiness!
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) released a statement today saying that the alcohol and sexual assault allegations had shown up on Kavanaugh’s previous background checks, but were not considered disqualifying at the time:
https://mobile.twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1047601056157507586
I’m going to repeat myself again: I guarantee you that it’s an open secret among Republicans that Kavanaugh is a heavy drinker who gets gropey when he drinks, and they nominated him anyway. ?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Omnes Omnibus:
Behold, Scooby Doo, Where Are You, circa 2002
bmoak
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Scooby-Doo was basically the main cast of Dobie Gillis plus a dog and a van. CBS honcho Fred Silverman specifically told the show developers at Hanna-Barbera to base the show’s characters on the Dobie Gillis.
Fred=Dobie Gillis
Daphne=Thalia Meninger
Velma=Zelda Gilroy
Shaggy=Maynard J. Krebs
Kay
@lamh36:
He wrote a whole book about how kids today are lazy. This is what he spends his spare time doing- scolding 50 million children he doesn’t even know. Come on- no one read that book. It’s just pure self-indulgence. Like an orgy of sanctimony.
SFAW
@Kay:
“In recent days, I have spent many hours thinking about the competing testimonies of Judge Kavanaugh and Miss Ford. I have lady friends who actually HAVE been sexually assaulted, and my heart breaks for the pain they continue to suffer.
“That being said, I think it would set a terrible precedent to deny this good man a seat on the Supreme Court, based on the testimony of one lady who was apparently having some doubts about her own recollection of the alleged incident. It is clear to me that her accusations would not stand up in a court of law. And so, it is with a heavy heart that I cast my vote to approve Justice Kavanaugh, and I hope that he can find it in his heart to forgive his accusers for the pain they have caused him and his family.”
I don’t think Suzy Q will have the figurative stones to utter something like this, but I bet one of the “thoughtful” Republicans will pull that shit.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Sit in the corner and contemplate your sins.
;)
smintheus
@Uncle Cosmo: I’m pretty sure that gag was stolen from the final scene of a very popular Italian movie of the previous year, I Soliti Ignoti, about a group of pathetic small time crooks (a send-up of Rififi). In the scene, an elderly crook cries out plaintively to his companion, who’s been accidentally swept along with a mass of job seekers into a factory:
Amir Khalid
@M. Bouffant:
Well, Woody Guthrie didn’t write songs about just anybody.
James E Powell
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
As a pre-teen Catholic boy, Sister Bertrille caused me all kinds of problems.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Ohio Mom:
The 90s-early 2000s TV animated movies were really excellent.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
It’s really nerve wracking because they want him so bad they must have big plans for him. I know everyone thinks it’s Roe but the money people in the GOP don’t give a shit about abortion. They want him because he’s going to destroy the legal basis for federal regulation. They see a BIG payoff or they wouldn’t be going to the mat for this asshole when they could get someone identical but with a lot less baggage. Has to be HIM. THIS far Right judge.
James E Powell
@NotMax:
Sure, because the nation’s premier investigative reporters really can’t do too much until a story fall in their laps.
Ruckus
@Kay:
What about that rich doofus who owes 7 billion in back taxes? One of the Mercers if I not mistaken. He makes shitgibbon look like a fat orange bag of lawn fertilizer.
I’d bet that if a really hard look was taken at the top 1%, they would owe between them, lots and lots of billions from fraudulent tax schemes. But there is so much money moving around and used in dubious ways, specifically to avoid taxes, that to me it’s sure bet that a lot of money is owed. But they can fight it and even if they lose once in a while they win far more than they lose, just by being able to rig the game.
M. Bouffant
Dobie’s Zelda is now an L.A. County Supervisor.
And Maynard G. Krebs was the best thing on the telly in those days.
smintheus
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Actually, a Providence Journal reporter decided to dig into Nixon’s tax returns and discovered that he had paid no taxes during 2 years he was president. There was nothing voluntary about the disclosure.
The Dangerman
@Mnemosyne:
I agree; I would guess that before “Me, too”, Ford (and the others) probably stay silent.
I think my last post went to WP Heaven (it was a peaceful passing), so I’ll try again. If Roe goes down 5-4 ever, the Right gets a Cat5 shitstorm (I know many Right leaning or hard Right women who say Roe will never go down; they may be in for a surprise…
…but if Roe goes down 5-4 and Kavanaugh is the 5th, well, can Shitstorms go to a Cat6 or higher? Do the Republicans really want to go there?
lamh36
@Kay: sigh, this is gonna be a long azz weekend. My only weekend off this month until the end of the month. Then the midterms. I’m seriously thinking about a social media blackout until Sunday.
I was off last Friday when dude was voted out of committee and prior to Flake’s FBI stunt (yeah, I’m calling it a stunt, after seeing NOTHING in Flake’s statements since learning how limited the scope was, makes me believe he’ll vote NO) I was getting way more emotional than I thought I would at the thought of this guy being on the SCOTUS.
I’m not sure if I can take another couple of days like last week, esp if it goes the way my gut tells me.
Might be a perfect time for a no social media self care weekend
Kay
@SFAW:
They only get conciliatory when they’re getting ready to screw someone and they think they’re there. If one of them says “bring the country together” it’s a done deal.
“Now it’s time to drop the rancor and accept that douchebag will be ascending to his throne” I feel bad for all the earnest liberal advocates who have to go in there and pretend they’re getting a hearing. They’re not. Mr. Umpire told the whole country he plays for a team, and they’re not on his team. I’m sorry they have to waste their hard work and their valuable time. They may as well take their case to Karl Rove.
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
Did Durbin say why the allegations of habitual binge drinking and sexual assaults were not disqualifying?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Kay:
Call me crazy, but couldn’t states like California ignore the Supreme Court’s decisions if they were egregious enough? What could the SC do?
Kay
@Ruckus:
It’s like in the early 2000’s when people were looking for where wage hikes went and someone finally noticed how much we were paying CEO’s. We found the money! They had it the whole time.
John Revolta
@debbie:
I should mention for anyone who doesn’t know that this quote was from Leona Helmsley, another NYC real estate billionaire. She wasn’t kidding either.
She actually did time for tax evasion but that’s was because she was so awful that she was giving rich fucks a bad name. Everybody in NY knows the real estate racket was and is thoroughly corrupt from bottom to top.
@Kay: “That means I’m smart.” He wasn’t kidding either either.
NotMax
@M. Bouffant
Maynard even did an occasional guest spot.
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
In my more paranoid moments, I think he’s being sent there to be the enforcer on the conservative judges, because the Russians provided kompromat on them. But he could just be going there as an everyday political enforcer with no Russian assistance.
We already know he’s not going to be an impartial decision-maker just calling balls and strikes. He told us that during his testimony. He’s going there to be a partisan hack and give American oligarchs everything they ever wanted. Vacating Roe v Wade and making abortion illegal is just the sop they’re going to throw to the fundies as they hollow out the country.
And, yes, they’re sending him there to protect Trump from facing criminal penalties. He’s already said that he now thinks that a president can’t be criminally prosecuted while in office, or after being removed from office, which is quite a 180 from his Clinton-persecuting days.
Aleta
how conservative men treat assaults on women:
a- you shouldn’t feel that way
b-if you feel that way, you should stay quiet about it
c-smile! because you’re bringing me down.
lamh36
@lamh36: it s what I had to do in 2016 when half the country, aided by 53% of white women (yeah I’m STILL pissed about that!) Russia and election fuckery when the orange menace was elected POTUS
this may be the weekend to do it before getting into the midterm GOTV
Mnemosyne
@Amir Khalid:
I think it was because the accusers were anonymous, but I can’t get the PDF to load on my iPad.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@NotMax:
I regret nothing
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
Kavanaugh’s accusers have names now. I take it that that doesn’t change anything for the Senator.
NotMax
@James E. Powell
The point is the Trumparatchik wasn’t about to open up access to them while still breathing.
lamh36
Sigh…I think it’s time I go to bed.
Kay
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Well, states could fill in some blanks, but if states could do it all we wouldn’t have beaten them in the civil war and we would have stuck with the conservative system of government all along. Seriously, though, we really do need federal laws. California can regulate air quality all they want- the other 49’s air will be wafting over there. You’ve been able to watch this in real time with a real issue- conservatives gutted federal voter protections and 25 states immediately raced to the bottom. I tihnk even they were shocked how fast it collapsed. Literally exactly what Justice Roberts said wouldn’t happen, happened. And quickly! They couldn’t wait to suppress black voters. They were so cocky about it North Carolina laid it out in the legislative record.
Kavanaugh will get voting rights cases and now that he’s announced to the country that he hates The Left (millions and millions of ordinary citizens) his decisions will be perceived as those of a political operative. He can’t put that genie back in the bottle. He told us what he is.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus:
That’s a pretty low bar.
tobie
One of the many things I’ve found shocking in the whole Kavanaugh investigation is that the FBI acted like they could only interview the people the White House identified. That is so messed up. I understand the White House has the right to delineate what matters should be investigated but it would seem to be the prerogative of the FBI to determine how the investigation should be conducted. That Wray and Rosenstein would agree to such an arrangement says a lot about them and none of it is good.
Mnemosyne
@Aleta:
Don’t forget:
d-you must have done something to make him do that.
John Revolta
@Mnemosyne: It took him three years to be approved by the Bush Admin. for his current gig at CoA, supposedly due to concerns about his “partisanship”.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@smintheus: Nixon still had to release his returns, they’re not a matter of public record.
oldgold
@burnspbesq:
No, I was agreeing with Adam Silverman’s statement at comment #11 that the state and federal tax authorities could not proceed against Trump for tax fraud crimes.
I have some experience with these statute of limitations and the civil clawback opportunities.
B.B.A.
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: When Arkansas ignored Brown v. Board, Eisenhower sent in the military to enforce desegregation.
This is historical fact. I am not opining on the likelihood of anything like this happening in the future.
M. Bouffant
@James E Powell: Saw Sally Field’s big-screen debut, The Way Weston the telly a few days ago. I’ll just say she doesn’t play a nun.
Ruckus
@Kay:
Exactly.
And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Remember 2/3 is hidden below the surface.
Does anyone in class know why most people pay their taxes? Because the cost of an audit and the penalty and interest is terrifying, if the one thing they found was all you were doing. The rich are not doing one thing. They are doing lots of things, so even if they lose what we’d consider to be the debt of a small third world country, they have more than enough to cover it. And their other schemes and avoidance get through and bam, more money.
When I say the penalty, normally it’s 20% and the interest is on top of that and what you owe. So, you owe $10,000. That’s $12,000 that you now owe. And interest on all of it since the original due date of the return. Likely to run around $15,000. Or more, depending on how old that return is. If it was 6 yrs ago……..
Mnemosyne
@Amir Khalid:
Dick Durbin, who released the statement, is a Democrat, so he’s already a no vote. Ben Sasse is a Republican, so he would vote yea even if there were photos documenting the attack.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
I wonder if it’s finally the end for Susan Collins. She’s been cynically using her pro-choice voters for her whole career, with this ridiculous dance.
It’s kind of delicious that her own Party finally called her bluff. This will be the third time since Trump was elected she’s announced she’s “confident” she secured some assurance and they screwed her. Her problem isn’t Democrats. Her problem is Republicans keep showing her up to be a fraud.
Adam L Silverman
@Amir Khalid: @Mnemosyne: The first four background checks were for staff positions. The first for one with Independent Counsel Ken Starr’s investigation, the next three for positions in the Bush 43 administration. These were all for high level clearances, not a background check for nomination to a Federal court, which is what the fifth and sixth background investigations were for. In each of these cases the final decision on awarding the clearance and granting access rests with the principle. In the first one of these that was Ken Starr. In the next three it was President Bush’s (43) Chief of Staff, who I think was Andy Card for all of them. And that’s provided that on the total person evaluation methodology that these concerns had to be brought to them for a final yeah or nay. Otherwise the decision rested with the adjudicator and the Special Security Officer. If the concerns/issues were something that led the Special Security Officer, based on the adjudicator’s report, to want to deny access, then and only then would it have gone to the principal – Starr or Card. They they would weigh in.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
What about Supreme is it you don’t capiche?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Kay:
What I’m trying to get at is that if we’re the majority of the population, then the retrograde decisions made by the SC would be seen as illegitimate and resisted at all levels of society. Not just in California. What could the SC do to combat that?
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: Just so no one get’s surprised when they wake up tomorrow. The question will be does McConnell have the votes.
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
That’s a far, far higher bar than the shitgibbon’s normal level. A putrid bag of lawn manure still has usefulness. You can’t name me one thing useful about the shitgibbon. Go ahead, give it a shot. You’ll lose.
SFAW
@Kay:
As evil as Rove is, I think he’s still more rational than Kavanaugh, and that a lot of his fuckery is more a case of gamesmanship than irrational hatred for (among others) the Clintons. I also don’t get the sense-of-entitlement vibe from Rove. But maybe I’m misreading things.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@B.B.A.:
And if the majority of the population attempted to resist the military sent in to enforce the “Supreme” Court’s “legal” rulings? And the resulting international reaction?
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Well, first they call up the marshal…
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
Don’t the Senate rules (oh, those pesky old things) stipulate 30 hours of debate after a cloture vote?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Adam L Silverman: meanwhile, Jane Mayer and Ronan Farrow have asked the questions McConnell and trump were terrified the FBI might ask
link function is borked for me again
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/will-the-fbi-ignore-testimonies-from-kavanaughs-former-classmates
lamh36
Confirmed or not…this isn’t over
https://twitter.com/michaelluo/status/1047685723627970561?s=21
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Last time SC shelled Fort Sumter.
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: dude, take it to r/alternativehistory
SFAW
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Don’t be an asshole. How is what you’re suggesting any different from “nullification,” philosophically.
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: As I’ve explained to a few folks with arsenals and anti-government sentiment a few times: if the government turns on the citizenry and unleashes the military and the military complies (which I’m not sure they would, but that’s another story), they’re not coming for you and your guns in basic combat uniforms with sidearms. They’re coming with strike fighters and tanks and strykers and SAWS and 50 Cals.
smintheus
@?BillinGlendaleCA: What the reporter discovered was not based upon Nixon’s released returns. He discovered that Nixon did not file any tax returns during those years.
tobie
@lamh36: Thanks for posting these excerpts. It’s a reminder not to give up hope and to keep on fighting.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Yeah, but the guys doing the shelling the last time were more numerous and actually had legitimacy. That’s not the case this time around.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: Yep, if they hold the cloture vote Friday by noon, then they’ll be able to do the actual vote sometime on Saturday afternoon.
Kay
They can’t even capitulate with dignity. They’re going to sternly lecture us on their moral superiority WHILE they install the judge their donors told them they’re getting.
They still don’t get it. It isn’t “nominate a woman”- that’s actually THEIR fucked up, twisted idea – that women are tokens . They still think X number of women allowed in and then used to prove their bona fides is what this is ABOUT.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
One can play what if ’til the cows come home.
IRL, that would something called “rebellion.” Had a little fracas over that some time back; I think Ken Burns might have alluded to it.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep, I read that about 30 minutes ago. Mayer and Farrow are on this story and they won’t get off until there is nothing left to report. As I’ve written repeatedly, this isn’t going away regardless of how the Senate votes on Judge Kavanaugh’s nomination.
YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S)
@Mnemosyne: href=”#comment-7043062″>Amir Khalid: no the two “confessors to the crime” were not anonymous. Not identified by the majority to the minority. The claims were fairly obviously fake, but disclosed to discredit Ford. https://www.durbin.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Letter%20to%20Chairman%20Grassley%20-%20October%203,%202018.pdf
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@SFAW:
The difference, is that the current GOP government is not legitimately elected (gerrymandering, voter suppression, foreign interference, etc). Therefore, the judges they appoint and the opinions they author are being forced upon the majority. They are not legitimate either
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: The South Carolina state militia did not have legitimacy and were not a majority.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
If they stay in uninterrupted session? 30 hours of debate is not equivalent to 30 hours according to the clock, AFAIK.
Adam L Silverman
@Kay: He’s referring to Amy Coney Barrett. The Republican strategic thinking is that because she’s a woman and a Catholic, even though she’s been involved in that weird family ministry, her nomination would have made it impossible for Democrats to challenge her without looking anti-woman and anti-Catholic.
Kay
@Ruckus:
I just think they’re playing with fire. There’s only so long that people are going to comply with rules, if rules don’t apply to powerful people.
They think Kavanaugh lying under oath is an exception, and it IS in my experience, most people don’t lie under oath. Which is lucky because tens of thousands of people testify every day and we don’t have enough jails to hold them all, not to mention that we actually have to find things out and they have to tell us, because they were there.
They better hope that doesn’t flip, and most people don’t start deciding that if the rules don’t apply to the Kavanaughs and the Trumps of this world, well, they just won’t follow them either. Because that could absolutely happen. Then it won’t be so great and bold to flout the rules- it’ll just be chaos.
oldgold
Late this evening the New Yorker ( Mayer and Farrow) filed an article including this.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/will-the-fbi-ignore-testimonies-from-kavanaughs-former-classmates/amp?__twitter_impression=true
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Isn’t the All-Volunteer Force made up of a lot of reactionary “conservatives” anyway? I don’t find it much of stretch that some US troops would shoot protesters in American cities.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: McConnell will have a GOP senator in the chamber from the time the clock starts to when the vote is taken. So most likely several will do pro-forma night shifts.
The Dangerman
I’m a little juiced tonight (Vegas trip got ruined by a waterpump a little south of Baker), so this may be stupid, but if it passes cloture, the final vote is a formality, right?
Also, I just signed up to volunteer for Janz in Visalia. If I have a car by the weekend. Right now, I’m stuck in Barstow. BARSTOW! I think there is one good restaurant in town. Second best restaurant may be McDonalds.
Amir Khalid
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
“They got the guns, but we got the numbers.” Jim Morrison was a musical legend, but no expert on these things. Legitimacy is not what wins shooting matches. Winning a shooting match requires superior firepower, which is what Federal troops have compared to citizen militias, and which tends to outweigh numerical superiority.
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: No. Is the All Volunteer Force more conservative in it’s totality than the rest of the country? Yes. Is it reactionary? No. Except for significant parts of the USAF officer cohort that have been heavily evangelized.
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: Not necessarily. There is no requirement that one must vote the same at the cloture vote and the final vote.
SFAW
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Just fucking stop already. I want that shit, I’ll go read the RedStoat archives.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
In which case Dems need to go all in on quorum calls. As many times as possible.
Mnemosyne
@YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
I’m talking about the previous background checks that R’s have been trying to claim were clean when they were not. The same allegations about drinking and sexual assault showed up but were dismissed as irrelevant.
The fake confessions are something different.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: you leave the noble stoat out of this!
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Whoops. I totally didn’t remember my ACW history. What I meant is that the Union was the actual legitimate government, as it constituted the majority of the country population-wise and the rebelling states were an authoritarian minority who didn’t want to respect a (relatively) free and fair election because they feared what it could mean for their futures as slavers.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: That will only matter for the cloture vote and final vote. And having one Democrat there to make the quorum call will provide enough with all the GOP senators for a quorum.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@SFAW:
What’s wrong with anything I said?
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
T
True, but tactically, if you wanted to kill the nomination, you want to kill it at cloture. That way, you didn’t vote against Kavanaugh; you just voted for more debate. If they can’t get cloture, eventually the nomination gets withdrawn, no?
Pardon my while I pour another (Barstow has one real restaurant, but lotsa liquor stores).
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: goku.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
Was working off your postulation of a lone senator there to hold a pro forma session. Dragging 50 more Rs in at 3 in the morning to assemble a quorum is going to take a lot of time (time which, I believe, is off the debate clock).
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yep. The genie is put of the bottle and people know to go to Mayer and Farrow if they have a #metoo story they think is being ignored.
As I keep saying, I think it’s only a matter of time before a woman with impeccable conservative credentials steps forward to say Kavanaugh attacked her while he was working as a Republican apparatchik, but she (or they) may only be pissed off enough to do it if he gets on the court. Tick -tock, motherfuckers!
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Amir Khalid:
Who’s to say citizens/state governments wouldn’t be able to get their hands on military-grade equipment?
Anyway, I think that if such an authoritarian government were to come to power, one of the few ways to dislodge it would be to carry out constant terrorists attacks against it, including critical state infrastructure, as well as assassinations.
lamh36
Ugh….there you have it…
Good night folks! gonna be a long weekend!
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: The nomination only gets withdrawn when either Kavanaugh removes himself from consideration or the President pulls the nomination. If the cloture vote fails, Kavanaugh is still the nominee. If he passes the cloture vote and the final vote fails, Kavanaugh is still the nominee. And unless either Kavanaugh removes himself from consideration or the President pulls the nomination, then he will remain the nominee until the next Congress is sworn in during the first week of January 2019.
NotMax
@NotMax
We don’t seem to have a Robert Byrd anymore, someone who can play the Senate rules like a Stradivarius.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
In one of my favorite books, the heroine has an ill-tempered pet ermine. At one point, they think they’re going to have to get into a brawl, and the cry goes up, Release the ermine!
lamh36
@lamh36: We’ll see if any of the actual reports is true
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: There’s no filibuster for this confirmation, so the 30 hours is purely ceremonial. There is no requirement for the Senate to be doing anything while the clock runs.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
If they’re not legitimately elected they should not be obeyed and should be resisted. To do otherwise would to submit to slavery
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
Let’s face it, the White House was never going to say anything else. They’re dug in now and can’t back down.
frosty
@lamh36: You’re on fire with the GIFs tonte. Love ’em!
frosty
ETA: tonite. Or tonight, if you will. I seem to have left my edit button somewhere…
Yutsano
@The Dangerman: I thought Barstow had a Popeye’s. Also: my sympathies.
Amir Khalid
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
The people in charge of determining who won the elections in 2016 decided the the current GOP government’s election win was legitimate. What is your definition of legitimate?
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
Again, true, but if it fails, cloture, it’s over. If it passes cloture and fails on the final, it’s over. In either case, Trump yanks his nomination before the day is out.
Adam L Silverman
I’m going to rub doggie bellies. You all do whatever it is you’re doing…
Mike in DC
The smart thing to do is collect statements from the witnesses not interviewed and read them into the record during the 30 hour period. Or news articles containing their accounts.
Kavanaugh is going to be the Supreme Court’s “NO RAGERTS” tattoo.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
It’s not ceremonial, it’s a time frame mandated by the current rules. Was under the (mistaken?) impression that a quorum call stopped all current business, for all intents and purposes putting the clock on hold. Parliamentarian would have to rule on that, I guess.
Harry Reid.
“Seemed like a good idea at the time.”
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: I don’t think so. I think he keeps the nomination through the midterms in an attempt to close the voter intensity gap. Which is why I think McConnell is going to hold a vote even if he doesn’t have the votes. I think that’s their fall back strategy.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
I’m not convinced. I’m sure they can find plenty of other Federalist Society judges who would be perfectly happy to rule exactly the same way as Kavanaugh. My gut feeling is that the real fight is to protect the culture of impunity. Whatever else he is, Kavanaugh is a born and raised member of the MOTU club. For him to suffer consequences for his past misdeeds implies that any other member of the MOTU club could also suffer consequences, and that cannot be allowed under any circumstances. This is now a matter of principle, and they can’t back down no matter what.
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: how’s that scene coming?
Amir Khalid
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Is it realistic to expect that citizens/state governments will manage to steal that much federal property?
The Dangerman
@Yutsano:
Oooo, good call; right across street from McDonalds.
If I could make it to the Outlets, there’s a Tommy’s down there but that’s a helluva walk (Tommy’s, I think, adds crack to their chili burgers; they are addictive as hell).
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Amir Khalid:
Funny, aren’t those same people Republicans themselves?
My definition of legitimate doesn’t include gerrymandering or voter suppression tactics. It also doesn’t include brazenly ignoring the will of the majority.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: Reid did the right thing. As soon as there was a GOP president and a GOP majority Senate and the Democratic minority tried to filibuster, McConnell was going to get rid of the filibuster. Which is exactly what he did for the Gorsuch nomination. Better that Reid did it and was able to move as many of Obama’s nominees as possible onto the Federal courts. Would’ve been even better if he and Leahy had also gotten rid of the blue slip process recognizing that McConnell was weaponizing it while in the minority and would do away with it as soon as he came back into power, which he also did.
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
OK, that makes sense.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
The view from the ledge must be scintillating as you are so determined to remain perched on it.
Really, you’re gallumphing into pieworthy territory tonight.
Amir Khalid
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
They’re Republicans who were themselves elected or appointed legitimately, i.e. in accordance with the law. I ask again, what is your definition of legitimate?
tobie
@lamh36: So “White House finds” means “Don McGahn, who engineered this whole process with the help of his Federalist buddy Chris Wray, finds.” Trump doesn’t read and is likely a functional illiterate, so any statement from the White House is coming from the cabal that pulls the strings there.
@Roger Moore: I like your theory but I’m too tired to look up what “MOTU club” means. Can you explain?
@Mike in DC: Maybe CNN can do wall-to-wall coverage of all the witnesses the FBI ignored over the next two days.
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
I think you’re right, and I think that’s also why we’re seeing a surge in Republican voter enthusiasm, i.e. white men. They’re upset that the bitches are going to take away their rape privileges.
I also suspect that at least some conservative women who have been assaulted are blaming the Democrats for the stress and flashbacks they’ve been dealing with these past couple of weeks. After all, if Christine Blasey Ford and the Democrats hadn’t dug up all of this old history and put it into the public record, they wouldn’t have to think about their own assaults and could have continued to pretend they weren’t bothered by them.
Roger Moore
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
The question is what California could do to resist. Suppose the Court overturns Roe v. Wade. California can “resist” by enforcing our current constitutional provision protecting abortion, but that’s about it. We can’t do anything to prevent Kansas and Alabama from making abortion illegal.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@NotMax:
Look, I still think this can be turned around at the ballot box. But if the right wing rigs the game so much in their favor and our society begins to resemble other nations with authoritarian governments, what will you do?
Mnemosyne
@tobie:
MOTU = Masters Of The Universe, aka privileged rich white guys.
NotMax
@Amir Khalid
Y’know, have been meaning to inquire if the guitar has turned out to be at all therapeutic for the finger?
Mart
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Which one:
Amir Khalid
@tobie:
MOTU club = masters of the universe club
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Amir Khalid:
Gerrymandered districts are not conducive to free and fair elections. And the “law” isn’t always right or fair.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
That’s an entirely different path of discussion than we were engaging in above.
Meanwhile, aren’t there exams to be studied for? (/former one-time teacher)
gene108
@Kay:
Problem it is a lot harder for W2 earners to cheat on their taxes. Some taxes are taken out per paycheck. And the options left to a W2 earner to dodge taxes are very limited compared to what businesses can do and rich people, with a lot of investments.
It would be really hard for the average W2 earner to cheat substantially on taxes. The system is rigged to keep the proles in line.
sukabi
@NotMax: one of his siblings or other family member’s accountant is feeling the squeeze from the feds and is looking for a deal? The tax info the NYT got was a “hey, I do have some info you’d find helpful”….
Purely speculation, but someone dropped a box of tax info on the times.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@gene108:
Is Greece tax system substantially different?
Roger Moore
@NotMax:
Get your facts straight. Harry Reid specifically preserved the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations; it was only removed during the confirmation fight over Gorsuch. And removing it for the rest of judicial nominations was a good idea. It let Obama fill a lot of judicial positions that otherwise would have been filibustered. Unless you think McConnell would have left the judicial filibuster alone- a dubious position given his willingness to nuke it for the Supreme Court- that would have given Trump even more positions to fill.
smike
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: @Amir Khalid:
You’re not going to defeat the US military with a bunch of stolen munitions and a group of raggedy-assed troops. The US military is equipped with lots of bodies that are fully trained and ready to go, and they ain’t gonna run out of bullets. They are also not afraid to bomb the shit out of civilian populations (I think I read something about that somewhere).
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
Haven’t started. Haven’t had the time. I won’t have the time till early December
tobie
@Mnemosyne: @Amir Khalid: Thanks, folks. I should have known this. You’re better than any urban dictionary.
Amir Khalid
@NotMax:
Yes they have, all three of them. The Girl (Squier Affinity Telecaster), Sister (Squier California Stratocaster), and Lady (Epiphone Les Paul Studio). My left pinky is stronger now than I thought it could be. Thanks for asking.
Major Major Major Major
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I bet you could spare a half hour a day!
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Elections within gerrymandered districts can be held freely and fairly. Impact is on representation, not on the quality or lack thereof of an election. Proposing that because a district is gerrymandered ipso facto means the process of an election is tainted does not compute.
Also too, a state cannot be gerrymandered; neither senators nor a president is elected by district.
Roger Moore
@tobie:
MOTU is Master Of The Universe. Kavanaugh is a member of the hereditary elite, and the rest of the hereditary elite (and the suck-ups who believe they can join by being loyal supporters) aren’t willing to accept that the rules for little people also apply to them.
tobie
@gene108:
but flexible enough to convince every two-bit small business owner that they are the greatest job creators evah. That’s the base the Republicans have been currying for years. There simply are not enough oligarchs to elect them otherwise. Remember their outrage over Obama’s perhaps indelicate remark, “You didn’t build this.” Every one of these largely uneducated and unskilled small business bastards is convinced that they’ve never gotten a dime of help from anyone. They’re the group I loathe the most.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Certainly the time spent playing Ifstory Channel.
:)
Mart
@NotMax:
The phrase always weakens my knees with thoughts of Sarah Palin, queen of the north woods and hero of the heartland. Also too, just don’t hear near enough about family brawls at the neighborhood party, and out of wedlock baby bumps no more.
Cacti
Sarcastic slow clap for the NYT for finally getting around to the reporting they should have been doing in the summer of 2015.
PJ
@Roger Moore: This may be a distinction without a difference, as far as your argument goes, but Kavanaugh is not a “Master of the Universe.” He is a servant of the people you call “Masters of the Universe”. He may have grown up rich, but it doesn’t sound like his family was well to do. Otherwise, why would he have decided to become a Republican party hack? If he were wealthy, he could have done anything. Instead, he chose to make himself a tool in service of the people with the real money and power, with the understanding, presumably, that he would be rewarded with a government position, and a judgeship, as he was. If he were really wealthy, and powerful, he wouldn’t have racked up $200K in debt (he would have racked up millions in debt, like Trump). If he were really influential, he would be the person making up the list of prospective Supreme Court justices, not a name on that list. No, he is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to make the wealthy and powerful more wealthy and powerful, which makes him useful, and gives him power over the rest of us, but the really powerful would not think of him as a peer. They are concerned about protecting him because they need tools like him to do the work and cover for them.
MisterForkbeard
@lamh36: There’s SOME wiggle room there – the White House says there’s no corroboration from witnesses, but that doesn’t mean there’s not other corroboration. Doubt it, though.
Seriously though, we have PUBLIC declarations in support of Ramirez and people who knew about it happening at the time. We have public declarations from those who knew Kavanaugh at the time who say he lied repeatedly (under oath) during his hearing.
How much does this take?
Mnemosyne
@smike:
I realize it’s a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison, but you might want to ask the Vietnamese, Afghans, and Iraqis about that.
Also, I do still think that, despite our current political divide, a majority of US troops would refuse to fire on their fellow US citizens inside the US and would probably consider it to be an illegal order even if they were ordered to do so. IIRC, even Kent State was mostly a mistake by panicked and ill-trained National Guardsmen.
NotMax
@Mart
‘Tis a B-J tradition, a note in one of the mystic chords of memory.
;)
Mnemosyne
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
If you reduced the amount of time you spend here, you could carve out half an hour a day. Just sayin’. This place is a time suck.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Major Major Major Major:
Maybe. I’ll see how it goes.
frosty
@gene108:
That’s what I figured out during the Manafort stuff. W2 earners have to fie to get a refund — to get our money back. Business owners, grifters, etc.don’t pay IRS money up front. They skate through a year then try to figure out how to owe IRS nothing. I was wondering how these guys ow the IRS 6 or 7 figures? That’s it — they don’t get docked on every income check
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
The US military never lost a shooting match in Vietnam, so it says. But it lost the war anyway. The shooting-match part of a war is only one aspect of it; there is always a wider political conflict that drives the whole thing. In both Afghanistan and Vietnam, it seems to me, the US inserted itself into somebody else’s fight, without understanding what was going on, and without a well-thought-out objective: failure was inevitable.
In dealing with a civilian uprising, the US would have clear military objectives: defeating the fighters (the shooting-match part); and shutting down any organisation(s) providing them with personnel, material and/or financial support. It should have no problem doing that. But I think addressing the politics that led to the uprising would be outside the scope of the armed forces, and would have to be the work of the civilian Federal government
?BillinGlendaleCA
@frosty: They have to pay estimated tax or get penalized on their 1040.
frosty
@Mnemosyne: @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I didn’t quote this the last time it came up, but I will now. It’s from Robert Heinlein, engraved into my memory. Rules for writers:
1 You must write.
2 You must finish what you write.
3 You must not rewrite except to editorial order.
4 You must put it on the market and keep it on the market until sold.
I generally fail at #2, sometimes #4 (academic papers). You appear to be struggling with #1. Other advice (can’t remember the source) “Writing is shooting thoughts on the wing.” Which means get something on paper, it doesn’t matter what. Rework it later, but you need to have something to work with.
NotMax
@frosty
Unless things have drastically changed, businesses (above a certain level of income) pay quarterly, reconcile annually and estimate the following year’s taxes.
Major Major Major Major
@frosty: What I always think is so funny about those rules is that #3 rather, er, shows in Heinlein’s later writings.
@NotMax: Well, nobody’s forcing you to pay estimates, though you do have to file them. Of course, nobody’s forcing you to withhold from every paycheck either, right? It all comes down to how much you like paying interest and penalties.
NotMax
@frosty
Amended to reflect discipline, from The Man Who Came to Dinner:
SFAW
@SFAW:
Apparently I forgot to include “tearful” re: the anticipated speeches, so the noble Sen. Sasse supplied them during his speech where he said “It’s not that we don’t care about women, but we don’t care about women. I mean, what are they good for, anyway, amirite?”