Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

The revolution will be supervised.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Bark louder, little dog.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

The words do not have to be perfect.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

The republican caucus is already covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

Let there be snark.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Foreign Affairs Horrorshow Open Thread: Jamal Kashoggi Is Dead. Donald Trump Remains A Liar

Foreign Affairs Horrorshow Open Thread: Jamal Kashoggi Is Dead. Donald Trump Remains A Liar

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Word from the (Republican) Chairman of the Senate’s Committee on Foreign Relations:


… Before or after the midterms? Because this sounds like one more really good reason to elect as many Democrats as possible, and turf out these useless GOP enablers.

Reader Interactions

145Comments

  1. 1.

    dmsilev

    Trump to reporters in Oval office on #JamalKhashoggi : “You don’t know whether or not we’ve sent the FBI [to investigate] do you?”

    Reporter: “Have you?”

    Trump: “Why would I tell you?”

    More proof, should any be needed, that Trump’s emotional development stopped sometime around his Terrible Twos.

  2. 2.

    Cheryl Rofer

    In that last tweet above, Drezner is perhaps being naive. Congress will fold like a cheap suit.

    Or he may not be naive. Sometimes I do stuff like that just because I’d rather have other people draw the conclusions.

  4. 4.

    Mike in DC

    What really horrifies me is the prospect that Israel could do this to one of its critics, and there would be more blowback inside Israel than from Trump or Congress.

  6. 6.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mike in DC: You don’t want to know some of the things Israel does. Though, usually, they tend to screw up the op some way. Mossad’s coasted for a very, very long time on an overrated reputation.

  7. 7.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Adam L Silverman: Susan Collins feels we must get to the bottom of this…

  8. 8.

    GregB

    This whole affair is depressing because the depravity is so open and apparent to anyone who isn’t a moron or a monster.

  9. 9.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: Well that settles it then, the GOP majority controlled Senate will do nothing. Other than her tweet, Ben Sasse’s statement, a lachrymose speech by Jeff Flake, and Lindsey Graham’s going rabid on Fox and Friends yesterday morning.

  12. 12.

    oldgold

    Some buzz that Nikki Haley’s unexpected exit might be related to this.

    Is Andrew Brunson’s release somehow tied to this?

    Any possibility Trump would promise to deliver Muhammed Fethullah Gülen after the election to silence Turkey?

  13. 13.

    Cheryl Rofer

    We now have two versions of Pompeo’s meeting with MBS.
    CNN:

    …Pompeo told bin Salman in no uncertain terms that he had to “own” the situation, and “that every fact is going to get out,” said the source, who added that the smiles between the two men ended when the photo op did.

    ….Pompeo also made it clear to the crown prince that the Saudis had to get their investigation done very quickly. The top US diplomat stressed that time is short and that the Saudis have to deal with the people involved sharply, the source said.
    Pompeo went on to tell the prince “bluntly that if they don’t, the US will have to deal with this,” the source said, and “will take action because the world will demand it and that President Trump’s hand will be forced by the global pressure.”

    ….Pompeo also told bin Salman he had to “own” what happened “even if the crown prince didn’t know about it beforehand.”

    New York Times:

    Mr. Pompeo’s private meeting on Tuesday with Prince Mohammed, attended by a small number of aides on both sides, was highly scripted, and he made no dramatic threats or ultimatums, said one former senior administration official who was briefed on the gathering.
    Mr. Pompeo asked for an accounting of what happened and the prince, denying any involvement in Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance, said an investigation was underway, the official said. In the end, the official said, Mr. Pompeo’s plea to the Saudis was to complete the investigation quickly and transparently.

    ….But a person familiar with the meeting said that privately, Mr. Pompeo sternly told the prince that even if he did not know whether Mr. Khashoggi had been killed, he would have to take responsibility to help the kingdom avoid the consequences of an international backlash.

    I can sorta see ways that the two might be accounts of the same meeting, but I’m not sure what to take from that. Washington Post should be along with their version in a bit. More at both links.

  14. 14.

    Elizabelle

    This good man was tortured and killed. I don’t think we can sit around and be cynical jackasses and kewl kids about that.

    It’s not a game.

  15. 15.

    Anne Laurie

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    In that last tweet above, Drezner is perhaps being naive. Congress will fold like a cheap suit.

    Or he may not be naive. Sometimes I do stuff like that just because I’d rather have other people draw the conclusions.

    Drezner’s a professor by trade. College profs have the habit of asking (requiring) students to draw their own conclusions.

  18. 18.

    hells littlest angel

    Trump is just a trusting guy who believes in taking people at their word.*

    *Offer does not apply to Christine Blasey Ford, Deborah Ramirez, Samantha Holvey — oh, fuck it, let’s just say all women.

  21. 21.

    Anne Laurie

    @Elizabelle: All we can do, right now, is work to turf out the Repubs who are enabling foreign autocrats. Knowing what we’re up against, IMO, is part of that work.

  24. 24.

    Anne Laurie

    @Adam L Silverman: Since I know very little about the politics of the region, I’ve chosen not to front-page the speculations I’ve seen on twitter that Turkey “leaked” news of Kashoggi’s assassination in pursuit of a specific (unnamed) quid-pro-quo.

  25. 25.

    Mike in DC

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m sure. I think I meant, if Bibi had an op ed columnist for Haaretz, who mildly criticized him, dismembered at an Israeli embassy, Israelis would freak out more than Trump or Congress would.

  27. 27.

    jl

    I myself believe that someone verifies that the money keeps rolling in.

    What I wonder is if Trump will keep up his ridiculous lies after Saudi Arabia officially admits they killed Kashoggi.
    I guess maybe being punked that bad is a sunk cost?

  28. 28.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jay: This is why you don’t let people that have no actual experience with national security and/or foreign and/or defense policy and strategy – as in actually doing the work for the government – advise on this stuff. Nexon is an excellent professor and scholar. But as far as I know he has no actual experience other than being a professor and scholar.

    When we look at the names floated as potential Democratic candidates for president in 2020, there’s a whole range of nat-sec, foreign, and defense policy options. All of them related to each other and much of them overlapping. Nexon’s argument is like the argument that Sanders is remaking the Democratic Party. Considering that the vast majority of the candidates he endorsed and backed didn’t get through their primaries, he’s not remaking the party.

  30. 30.

    Adam L Silverman

    @oldgold: You’re welcome. They tried to make it happen back over the summer and the deal fell apart because Bibi backed out at the last minute. Apparently the President made it clear that Bibi owed him one.

  31. 31.

    ant

    This story seems like a big deal to me.

    Doing what they did to a journalist, had to be a bad idea, to whoever thought of it. I mean something about attacking people that buy ink by the barrel…. or whatever…

    I feel that it is likely that they were given the OK by the US government to do this ahead of time.

    The washington post has not been very friendly to the Trump administration.

    I am angry about this in a different way than all the rest of the shit they have pulled thus far. They cut him up into pieces while he was still alive, and didn’t care who found out about it.

    This is a new era.

  32. 32.

    eemom

    @Mike in DC:

    What really horrifies me is the prospect that Israel could do this to one of its critics, and there would be more blowback inside Israel than from Trump or Congress.

    Excuse me, but where the fuck does this non sequitur even come from?

    We’re gonna glide right past the fact that the Saudis — with whom this country has been in bed for decades in ways and for reasons far more vile than anything connected with its alliance with Israel — DID DO this, and focus on “what if Israel does this?”

    What the fuck is wrong with you?

  33. 33.

    Jay

    @Elizabelle:

    It’s not a game, but,

    Israel and Saudi Arabia spend the most money in The West, funding lobbiests and spreading around Dark Money to control Politicians.

    Trudeau might be a lot more civil, pretty and social justice, ( in some regards), but they will do no more or less than anybody else in the West because of Saudi cash.

    We, the West really need to get our Houses in order, with morality and democracy as foundations of “national security” and trade relationships.

    Western hipocracy over Saudi Arabia and other “less than benign” States in the Middle East has fueled 4 generations of terrorism and conflict.

  34. 34.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Jay: I had quite a discussion with Dan on that topic this morning. He links one of my tweets in that piece. I’m pretty sure Dan was in the Obama administration. He is a good guy aside from supporting Wilmer and has four gorgeous cats.

    I give Sanders credit for trying to put something like foreign policy together. The Corbyn connection seems to have come as a surprise to Dan. The Politico article was written by a newbie reporter who obviously shares the traditional prejudice that only white men can do foreign policy.

    I think we’ll hear more from Dan on this. He got a lot to think about this morning.

  35. 35.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Anne Laurie: I’ve seen those and that’s not my take. For full disclosure here: I’ve supervised a Turkish Armor colonel (frontline supervisor, academic advisor, research supervisor) who has been in the wind, and we think was scarfed up by Erdogan after the coup and whose family I can’t reach, a Saudi Armor colonel (research supervisor), and know several other senior Saudi and Turkish officers.

    Now that that’s out of the way, my take is that Erdogan doesn’t want any of this mess on him. He didn’t want MBS to blame it on anti-Saudi prejudice in Turkey when Khashoggi’s disappearance was noted. And I think that was the cover story that the Saudis were going to go with. That Khashoggi entered the consulate, got his marriage license, and then left. He was then abducted or killed sometime after he left the consulate. The problem was that the Saudis didn’t account for the fact that Khashoggi brought his fiance with him and told her to wait for him outside the embassy and that if he didn’t come out to go directly to the authorities. Both of which she did. At that point the Saudis started to improvise their crisis strategic communication and did a terrible job of it.

  36. 36.

    Steeplejack

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Susan Collins, in the near future:

    Mr. Khashoggi was clearly terrified, traumatized, and I believe that murder and dismemberment did happen to him. What I think he is mistaken about is who the perpetrator was. I do not believe his murderer was MBS or the Saudi government.

    I would have called for sanctions against Saudi Arabia if I disbelieved MBS, but given his denials and the lack of evidence that this happened—after all, there is no body—I just did not think that it was fair to ruin the life of this distinguished tyrant and his regime over allegations that cannot be proven.

  38. 38.

    eemom

    @Elizabelle:

    This good man was tortured and killed. I don’t think we can sit around and be cynical jackasses and kewl kids about that.

    It’s not a game.

    Cosigned, and thank you for being the voice of sanity.

  39. 39.

    NotMax

    WaPo needs to run a picture of Mr. Khashoggi, framed in black, on the front page daily, with the caption “Dead X days. We’re waiting, Mr. President.”

    (I realize some will deem that milquetoasty.)

  41. 41.

    Mike in NC

    Read today that SNL producer Lorne Michaels has been a big contributor to Senator Susan Collins and presumably many other Republican politicians over the years. That would explain why Donald Fucking Trump was the goddamn host for so many episodes. Fuck SNL, which should have been cancelled years ago.

  42. 42.

    Jay

    @eemom:

    You are misreading Mike in DC,

    He’s saying that “if” Israel did something like this, there would be more push back in Israel, than inside DC.

    He’s saying that as bad as support for Authoritarianism it has gotten in Israel, it’s not as bad as DC culture.

  43. 43.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: I just looked it up. Apparently he did a fellowship at OSD-Policy. Which is interesting, as I didn’t know OSD-Policy had fellowships and I was just emailing with the, at that time, Director of Policy at OSD-Policy last week. I provided push-pull support to her and her folks from 2012-2014.

  45. 45.

    Mike in DC

    @eemom: My point, which you missed by a mile, was that this willful blindness/inaction likely extends not only to KSA, which is bad enough. But to countries for which such conduct would be an even bigger red flag, if calling out such conduct would be in some way politically inconvenient for Trump or congressional Republicans. Not a knock on Israel or a suggestion they would do such a thing.
    I have previously commented on how egregious and deserving of every possible sanction this act is.

  47. 47.

    eemom

    @Jay:

    No, I get that. My point is that that “hypothetical” strikes me as an extremely strange thing to focus on.

  50. 50.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    Well, be fair. The Saudis have payed him a lot of money. Without all that nice money they gave him, he’d have a lot less money. Shit. Maybe he’d have to have his overdone steak only six times a week instead of every day, or even put house-brand ketchup on it. What is he supposed to do? Just not believe them? Give the poor guy a break, why don’t you?

  52. 52.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Then there’s this:

    The United States received a payment of $100 million from Saudi Arabia on Tuesday, the same day Secretary of State Mike Pompeo arrived in Riyadh to discuss the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, a State Department official confirmed Wednesday amid global calls for answers in the case.

    Saudi Arabia publicly pledged the payment to support U.S. stabilization efforts in northeastern Syria in August, but questions persisted about when and if Saudi officials would come through with the money.

    The timing of the transfer, first reported by the New York Times, raised questions about a potential payoff as Riyadh seeks to manage the blowback over allegations that Saudi agents were responsible for Khashoggi’s disappearance. The State Department denied any connection between the payment and Pompeo’s discussions with Saudi officials about Khashoggi, a Washington Post contributing columnist.

  53. 53.

    eemom

    @Mike in DC:

    But to countries for which such conduct would be an even bigger red flag

    And what, exactly, does that mean?

    Seems to me that Adam read your “point” the same way I did, despite having the opposite reaction.

    You don’t want to know some of the things Israel does. Though, usually, they tend to screw up the op some way. Mossad’s coasted for a very, very long time on an overrated reputation.

  54. 54.

    Jay

    @eemom:

    Given Bibi’s relationship to Saudi Arabia, Kushner, the Insane Clown POSus Administration, the Beltway, US Politicians,

    and Bibi’s domestic problems,

    The parallels are there.

    A lot of Bibi’s problems would go away with the deaths of a few Israeli Journalists.

  55. 55.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: He’s a good guy. He’s been an excellent editor of International Studies. But there’s a world of difference between being a senior advisor to a senior leader and his experience. I’ve been the former. I’ve also been a senior fellow at a DOD command (SOCOM). Hell just being a senior advisor to a brigade combat team commander (a colonel) in Iraq created a major change in how I understood nat-sec, foreign, and defense policy and that was both my first assignment and a tactical to operational level assignment.

  56. 56.

    Adam L Silverman

    @eemom: I see how it is. Israel, Jewish front pager, just lump us all in to your comment fight…//

    In case the sarc tags aren’t enough, I’m teasing and being a smartass.

    Also, you really don’t want to know those things about what the Israelis do.

  57. 57.

    eemom

    @Jay:

    A lot of Bibi’s problems would go away with the deaths of a few Israeli Journalists.

    Oh my fucking GOD.

    So tell us, Adam — do the things we don’t want to know about the Mossad include the brutal murder of ISRAELI JOURNALISTS?

    I cannot fucking believe you people.

  59. 59.

    Jay

    “And what, exactly, does that mean?”

    In the UN General Assembly, and the UNSC, Israel’s situation has only been “saved” by US veto’s.

  64. 64.

    Adam L Silverman

    @eemom: Not that I’m aware of. Also, I can’t actually talk about what I am aware of.

    I can tell you that one of the biggest blown assassination attempts was by Mossad a few years back. They sanctioned the target, but boy did they blow the op!
    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35435440/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/interpol-puts-dubai-suspects-wanted-list/
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/suspected-israeli-killing-irks-dubai-uk/

    And don’t google it, because it was caught on video and the video comes up as one of the first search returns.

  66. 66.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Pompeo sounds as though he is advising the Saudis to find someone to blame and be quick about it.

    Preferably someone who was actually involved, but then you have to make sure they don’t get a chance to talk before getting the chop.

    With the Saudi’s that should be easy enough.

  67. 67.

    Anne Laurie

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks.

    To be honest (and I said this earlier), my first thought when the news broke was to wonder if the Turkish government was making up a horror story for its own reasons. In my defense, I grew up with Armenian neighbors, and pre-WWII Jewish neighbors — horror stories about the Saudis were not among my earliest memories.

  68. 68.

    Adam L Silverman

    @eemom: Also, I am listening. And as a result was trying to use some sarcasm to lower the temperature/tension a bit. Apparently it didn’t work.

  69. 69.

    Adam L Silverman

    This is interesting:

  70. 70.

    eemom

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Not that I’m aware of. Also, I can’t actually talk about what I am aware of.

    Fuck you. Enjoy your smuggery.

    In any event, I have it on good authority that people in actual possession of classified information don’t advertise that fact on public media.

  71. 71.

    Jay

    @eemom:

    Israel brutally murders, starves, enslaves, disposesses, ethnically cleases, tortures and murders Palistinian, Israeli Arab, Beduin, Refugee men, women and children, daily.

    They kill, violate and imprison Western Supporters of Rights Activists.

    They shell and murder UN Observers who document this.

    Bibi and his family are facing a huge array of criminal charges, exposed by Israeli Journalists.

    As you so clearly show, Washington and many American’s wouldn’t blink if Bibi whacked a few Israeli Journalists.

    After all, Partnering with Putin to ratfuck the 2016 US Elections and provide cover for “Enemy Action” has hardly caused a ripple.

    Theoretically, Bibi whacking a few Israeli Journalists, based on his Govoennent’s other nasty policies, is a “Bridge Too Far”, for Isreali’s,

    Because it certainly isn’t for DC and many Americans.

  72. 72.

    Adam L Silverman

    @eemom: I held a term appointment as a GS 15 at the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Security Dialogue for Middle East Peace and was assigned by them to be the Senior Advisor to the Commanding General of US Army Europe in support of his assignment in regard to the DOD’s portion of the 2014 US backed attempt to broker an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement. In that assignment I was the author of the historic introduction to the final report, ghosted the commanding general’s own introduction, and served as the executive editor and quality control/quality assurance officer for that report. The report itself is classified. I can divulge, as I did here, that I held this position and did this work, but I can’t go into the details. This is also, by and large, how this assignment is delineated on my resume and on my CV, neither of which are classified. So I don’t know who you think is or isn’t a good authority, but what I’m telling you is both true and allowable under the classification rules for the work I did.

  73. 73.

    B.B.A.

    Well, we can’t criticize KSA because they control OPEC, and we can’t switch away from oil because climate change is a Chinese hoax, so excuse me while I bang my head against the wall for the next few years.

  74. 74.

    Adam L Silverman

    @eemom:

    Fuck you. Enjoy your smuggery.

    Also, I’ve already had several conversations with Cole about your attitude around here. Specifically in regard to how you respond to and treat your fellow commenters. Your tirade a month or two back was particularly choice. I’m tired of trying to engage with you on this, so I’m simply going to make it clear. If you can’t keep yourself from simply attacking everyone no matter what they do or say here, you’re gone. I’m tired of it. And so is everyone else. The rest of us aren’t your personal punching bags. Your overreaction to everyone over everything, no matter what the thing is, is tiresome. And in some cases it’s actually hurtful. I’m tired of having to spend time with commenters offline cleaning that stuff up. Get your shit together or get lost.

  75. 75.

    cmorenc

    [Evan Siegfried] We are a day or two away from Trump claiming Khashoggi dismembered himself

    …and we are but a week or two away from Trump claiming Nancy Pelosi did it.

  76. 76.

    Jay

    @NotMax:

    The list of countries we should not be “in bed with”, is long, and tained by history, Lobbiests, money and arms sales.

  77. 77.

    Mike in DC

    Israel doesn’t murder Israeli journalists. It often harasses non-Israeli journos who write about I/P issues, but it’s not in the journalist murdering game. IF it were, that would/should be a huge red flag, a bigger one because Israel is a representative democracy with professed respect for rule of law, rights of its own citizens, etc. And Israelis would freak out. What I find horrifying is not that Israel would ever do such a thing(I don’t think they would), but that even something like that would not get an appropriate reaction out of Trump or Congressional Republicans. This ghastly murder should have been a slam dunk with respect to an official US reaction, but instead we get “but muh armz deelz!”

    Dear lord, try the decaf. I’m not a habitual Israel-basher. It just occurred to me as a hypothetical illustration of how effd up this USG is on foreign policy.

  82. 82.

    Adam L Silverman

  83. 83.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I think you are over the line here. You don’t speak for everyone on this blog. Cole has a very few, very specific rules for banning someone, and I don’t think eemom has violated those. In any case, it would be Cole’s decision to make, wouldn’t it?

  84. 84.

    WaterGirl

    …“it just sounded to me like he felt like he did not do it”

    That sentence sends me into a rage. He FELT like he did not do it? Maybe it’s just me and Im weird, but I’m pretty sure that if I did not murder someone, I wouldn’t have to FEEL like I did not murder someone. Instead, I would KNOW I did not murder someone. And by “did not murder”, yes, I am including ordering or approving of the murder in that sentence.

    Are we back to “it depends on what the definition of “is” is?

    Please, I am begging someone, anyone, who wasn’t raised catholic to do a whole bunch of swearing for me since the nuns are still in my head and won’t let me use the name of the lord in vain.

    edit: and tweet number 2 sends me into a rage again. This cannot be real.

  85. 85.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Steeplejack (phone): Hence the “I’ve already consulted with Cole twice” bit. Considering I had to engage offline with someone who wound up retraumatized over a real life trauma because of a particularly unpleasant series of attacks by eemom a couple of months ago, I don’t think I’m over the line at all. Especially given eemom’s attempts to gaslight that commenter when called out over it.

  86. 86.

    The Dangerman

    We are a day or two away from Trump claiming Khashoggi dismembered himself.

    Far more likely than the King lying to Trump. Not only did Khashoggi whack off his appendages, he had them shipped away. Damn fine trick.

    I wonder of the lucky ducky that got the bag of dick has a clue about the American idiom?

  90. 90.

    Waynski

    I turned on TMZ for a minute in between late night shows and they’re discussing whether the WWE should keep a previously planned show date in Saudi Arabia. The hosts are saying they shouldn’t go. If you’ve lost TMZ, my goodness, you’ve lost America (although, I think WWE’s going anyway). And I’m not being snarky. I think there are even lots of Trump supporters who think the Saudis need to pay for this kind of brazen murder.

  91. 91.

    guachi

    @eemom:

    In any event, I have it on good authority that people in actual possession of classified information don’t advertise that fact on public media.

    LOL.

    And for good measure. Double LOL.

    Oh, you’ve TALKED with people who have/had clearances. I’m impressed. Well, then. That clears it up.

  95. 95.

    Mary G

    Pimpeo’s yukking it up with the Saudis was disgusting. The US was doing so well with alternative energy strategy under Obama and the Neanderthal administration doing a hard U-turn to keep coal and oil safe is a freaking tragedy.

  99. 99.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Waynski:

    I think there are even lots of Trump supporters who think the Saudis need to pay for this kind of brazen murder.

    Most of them will change their minds once Trump’s position becomes clear to them (whether that be “they didn’t do it”, “chopping up journalists is awesome” or some combination of the two).

  100. 100.

    guachi

    What I’m getting at is I’m not impressed when you say you’ve spoken with someone with a clearance.

  101. 101.

    eemom

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It’s kind of superfluous at this point, I suppose, but you are really full of shit in those accusations, as any reading enabled individual would easily ascertain. Not even close.

  103. 103.

    Jay

    @eemom:
    “You can convince yourself if you must, as your dog happily laps away at your balls, that your balls must be delicious, but we all saw you spread peanut butter on them.”

  105. 105.

    piratedan

    since the Trump administration (and those that swim in its waters and enable its actions) are apparently the manifestation of the GOP ID, how can we provide honest and worthwhile therapy to unfuck everything that has been done for the greater good of bigots, misogynists and morally challenged greedy fucks and gawd botherers?

    Almost wonder if someone is going to have to simply take down Uncle Rupert’s playhouse for the good of the planet and retire that fucker to a small remote island due to host the next Pakistani nuclear test.

    I fear that the amount of hate sown by these irresponsible fucks is beyond repair…. I guess what I am saying is how long is it going to be before some good people have to do some very bad things…..

  107. 107.

    WaterGirl

    Knowing that Trump is collaborating on the cover-up of this unspeakable murder is surely sending all of us over the edge. I thought I was on the edge with the Kavanaugh travesty, but apparently I had no idea what the edge really looked like.

    This thread is not our finest hour. Maybe we can all take a deep breath and either get back to the subject at hand or maybe we can talk about bunnies or look at videos of sea otters.

  110. 110.

    Gelfling 545

    It’s rare for me to be awake at this time, so I don’t usually see the late night posts. I have to say it sure gets lively here after midnight.

  111. 111.

    West of the Rockies

    If the Turks have evidence, I hope they release it. One hopes for justice in this episode.

    There are some truly vile people running a lot of major countries in the world today. Have they seen the “success” enjoyed by Drumpf and become emboldened? Is this a sort of mass hysteria in response to globalism?

    Sometimes it feels like we’re animals trying to drink from an ever-diminishing watering hole, with far more gators than gazelles.

  112. 112.

    SFAW

    @piratedan:

    Almost wonder if someone is going to have to simply take down Uncle Rupert’s playhouse for the good of the planet and retire that fucker to a small remote island due to host the next Pakistani nuclear test.

    Well, in the world of RWAs, the Second Amendment is the one that matters, and is absolute. The First, on the other hand, is a “nice to have” thing in their minds, and the MSM/Luegenpresse deserve(s) any restriction they bring upon themselves. .

    Well, except when it’s Fox that might get restricted. Were that to happen: Whoa, Nelly!

  113. 113.

    guachi

    @eemom: because “having it on good authority” means you trust the person who told you the information.

    If you didn’t talk with someone then they didn’t tell you so you can’t have it on good authority.

  114. 114.

    piratedan

    @SFAW: they do appear to subscribe to the “rights for me but not for thee” interpretation of any law that might be abused for their ends….

  119. 119.

    SFAW

    @piratedan:

    they do appear to subscribe to the “rights for me but not for thee” interpretation of any law that might be abused for their ends….

    They wouldn’t be RWAs if they didn’t.

  120. 120.

    WaterGirl

    It looks like the intelligence services don’t want to let this go, either.

    U.S. Spy Agencies Are Increasingly Convinced of Saudi Prince’s Ties to Journalist’s Disappearance

    Oct. 17, 2018

    WASHINGTON — American intelligence officials are increasingly convinced that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is culpable in the killing of the dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi, an appraisal that poses challenges to a White House intent on maintaining a close relationship with the kingdom.

    Intelligence agencies have not yet been able to collect direct evidence of the prince’s involvement, American and European officials said. They also have not been able to conclude whether Prince Mohammed directly ordered the killing of Mr. Khashoggi, or whether his intention was to have Mr. Khashoggi captured and taken back to Saudi Arabia, according to one official.

    But intelligence agencies have growing circumstantial evidence of the prince’s involvement — including the presence of members of his security detail and intercepts of Saudi officials discussing a possible plan to detain Mr. Khashoggi, according to American officials.

    Officials have also said the prince’s complete control over the security services makes it highly unlikely that an operation would have been undertaken without his knowledge.
    American intelligence agencies are preparing the assessment of Prince Mohammed to present to President Trump. The work was described by a half-dozen officials on Wednesday, as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo concluded a trip to the kingdom that failed to deliver an immediate diplomatic resolution to the crisis.

    Officials said the intelligence agencies are trying to take care not to limit the White House’s policy options, and just put forward facts about the case.

  121. 121.

    WaterGirl

    The brutal murder of this journalist has me thinking back to Trump being willing to seriously consider Putin’s request for Bill Browder and others to be “questioned” in Russia. It seems to me that Trump was willing to deliver them to Putin; it’s not much of a jump to think that Trump or Jared would green light this horrible murder.

  122. 122.

    Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    It’s not just the Insane Clown POSus, you can see the enablers and derailers lining up,

    The ugly reality is that there is too much Saudi money floating around for this to have an impact.

    And so the Chattering Classes have to find an excuse to wish it all away.

    Not sure, if it was Hullabaloo or not, but it was an article noting that The Plan by the Insane Clown POSus, Jared, KSA and Israel to use the Sanctions of November 4th and a blockaide, to cause the collapse of Iran,

    But it relies on KSA flooding the markets with oil to prevent oil shock.

    I’m not sure Saudi Arabia has the volume anymore.

  124. 124.

    Jay

    @Barbara:

    Muy bad, it was an accident, boys will be jihadi’s, here’s some more money, and we promise accidents like this wont happen again,

    And Jared had nothing to do with this.

  126. 126.

    Waynski

    @Matt McIrvin: Most likely the combination of the two. Is anyone else having trouble copying and quoting someone’s previous comment to include in your response? Not sure what I’m doing wrong.

  127. 127.

    WaterGirl

    @Barbara: From the wording of your question, it seems like you think I have suggested a diplomatic solution to this, which I don’t really think I have.

    I think we need to seriously cut a lot of ties with Saudi Arabia over this. It can’t just be business as usual or a total whitewash like with Kavanaugh where 2 weeks later Trump is saying he was totally cleared and was totally innocent.

  128. 128.

    Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    The DC “push back” for example, the IC, seems to be less about MBS, and more about using this as push back against the Insane Clown POSus’s Administration’s being co-opted by the Saudi-Israeli axis of Evil.

  129. 129.

    WaterGirl

    @Barbara: I do think it’s totally crazy that we are letting the Saudi’s run their own investigation into themselves! That is absurd. We should have just let Kavanaugh phone his buds Judge and Sqi and then come back and tell us the outcome of his “investigation”.

    Maybe that’s not such a great example because the “investigation” wasn’t much better than that would have been.

  130. 130.

    Jay

    @eemom:

    I know Bibi’s your dream President and your True Life Partner, but he’s already married and ineligible for replacing The Insane Clown POSus.

  131. 131.

    Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    There’s a lot of ties the West needs to cut back and restrict. There’s a lot of ties we need to open up as well.

    Did you know that “light at the end of the tunnel”, was first used as Gen. Legard in Cochin China, ( North Vietnam) in 1952?

    There’s a lot of bad that falls out from “staying the course”.

  133. 133.

    piratedan

    @Jay: it makes you think that with the GOP shit show exposing what has been a fine line in foreign policy where we have had some relationships (and our own past which is NOT talked about enough) with actors that tilted way more towards tyranny than democracy, then to see the US, if it escapes from the Trump sinkhole of depravity, maybe even usher in a new era where America actually goes back to walking the walk of helping countries become and encourage Democratic processes… I could see us attempting to repair a lot of damage in Central and South America and even look at not being a major shitstain to many African republics… (I was actually hoping that Obama would do more in that respect but considering the lengths that the GOP was willing to commit treason just in response to his mere existence, I can see why that lift wasn’t given more push).

  134. 134.

    Jay

    @piratedan:

    Yup, hoping for a realignment,

    But still not hopefull,

    Global Climate Change is coming,

    ( I do so much better with Winter, and in that version, “we” get Ayria!”

  135. 135.

    MoxieM

    @NotMax: Srsly, right? Or, don’t put them in water. That never actually made sense either. Until I got my present dog.

    Oh? was that a threadjack?

  137. 137.

    Sloane Ranger

    @eemom: I think the point was about the hypocrisy or situational ethics being demonstated by US politicians. Had Israel done what KSA seems to have done all but a handful of politicians would be locking themselves away to avoid the press or speculating that the victim left by a side door or something and made himself scarce because he’d got cold feet about the wedding.

    Had this happened in the Iranian Embassy to an Iranian citizen resident in the US, you’d have been at war with Iran for nearly a fortnight now.

  138. 138.

    Procopius

    I don’t understand why we would “send the FBI to investigate” in Turkey. The FBI has no authority there. If a Turkish citizen, in Turkey, lies to an FBI agent it is not against the law. The FBI cannot issue Administrative Letters in Turkey as they do in the U.S. thanks to the wildly misnamed PATRIOT Act. I suppose there are half a dozen or so FBI agents who speak Turkish. Would they know their way around on the ground well enough to know where to start an investigation?

  139. 139.

    Jinchi

    To be clear, Donald Trump’s “who knows?” game is utter BS.

    Turkey publicly claims to have tapes of the murder and has been actively accusing the Saudis. As a NATO ally they undoubtedly shared the intelligence with the U.S. Pompeo visited yesterday, so he has heard the tapes as well, unless he chose to remain ignorant.

    So Trump could reasonably say “Turkey has not shared any evidence with the US, and the Saudis deny it.” Or he could say, “Yes, we have evidence of the murder.”

    But “it just sounded to me like he felt like he did not do it” —? That doesn’t make sense as anything other than a willful and pathetic coverup.

  140. 140.

    Procopius

    @ant:

    They cut him up into pieces while he was still alive, and didn’t care who found out about it.

    I’m quite willing to believe this, given the people (Arabs) involved, but how, exactly, do you know this? Lots of people believed the woman who said Emmet Till patted her on the ass, until she admitted it was a lie thirty years later. Are you relying on stories from the CIA? From the New York Times? From The Saker’s Vineyard? Were you a member of the fifteen man team that is supposed to have done it, and you have now defected to an unnamed Western country?

  142. 142.

    grubert

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Some folk so much enjoy the feeling of self-righteous anger that they seek out opportunities. I’ve had a friend or two like that. Engaging them gets tedious after awhile and you just stop trying.

  143. 143.

    J R in WV

    @ant:

    I am angry about this in a different way than all the rest of the shit they have pulled thus far. They cut him up into pieces while he was still alive, and didn’t care who found out about it.

    This is a new era.

    No, they didn’t do it like that! That’s not Halal even for goats!!

    More seriously, they probably did do that, and laughed all the while, like Bret “Justice” Kavanaugh did while attempting rape.

  144. 144.

    J R in WV

    @sgrAstar:

    @eemom: you need to reset your rage meter.

    Never gonna happen. I don’t pie eemom so I know what eemom is up to, and see what other’s have to say about eemom’s extreme behavior.

  145. 145.

    Tehanu

    Adam L. Silverman: I guess this is late to the thread. I just want to say that I always read your posts and comments with great interest and respect, and I think almost everyone else here among the regular commenters does too. And I applaud your calm tone today.

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