According to a report in Bloomberg today, shortly after the midterm elections, Special Counsel Robert Mueller will release findings on whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russia to swing the 2016 election and whether Trump himself obstructed justice:
Special Counsel Robert Mueller is expected to issue findings on core aspects of his Russia probe soon after the November midterm elections as he faces intensifying pressure to produce more indictments or shut down his investigation, according to two U.S. officials.
Specifically, Mueller is close to rendering judgment on two of the most explosive aspects of his inquiry: whether there were clear incidents of collusion between Russia and Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign, and whether the president took any actions that constitute obstruction of justice, according to one of the officials, who asked not to be identified speaking about the investigation.
That doesn’t necessarily mean Mueller’s findings would be made public if he doesn’t secure unsealed indictments. The regulations governing Mueller’s probe stipulate that he can present his findings only to his boss, who is currently Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. The regulations give a special counsel’s supervisor some discretion in deciding what is relayed to Congress and what is publicly released.
The thing I want to believe referenced by the image above isn’t that the Trump campaign colluded and that Trump obstructed justice; I am 95% sure the Trump campaign conspired with Russia because we have hard evidence that they were slobberingly eager to do so — all that’s needed is proof that they followed through on that intent. I am 100% certain that Trump obstructed justice because he confessed it on camera to Lester Holt and has publicly tampered with witnesses and interfered with the investigation ever since.
No, the thing I want to believe is that justice is possible even though the Republicans have insisted that only Republicans can investigate Republicans and that Republicans control what the public can know about the findings. If such a scenario were unfolding in a foreign country, we’d label it a Banana Republic and expect a white wash. I want to believe we will eventually know the truth about a hostile foreign power’s attack on our election, and in America circa 2018, that feels a little like believing in alien abductions.
germy
“But we’ll wait until after you all vote to share our findings.”
jeffreyw
I suspect he will report that Trump is dirty and a lawbreaking liar and Trump will say that is not true and anyway what are you gonna do about it.
It comes down to putting enough people on the street that the media can’t leave all the coverage to C-SPAN.
WaterGirl
That’s how I feel, too, Betty.
Stated sourcing for this news is one “according to two U.S. officials” and two “according to one of the officials”. That’s it.
Could that be any more vague? For all we know, the whole thing is pure speculation. Putin and Trump have certainly done a good job of creating an environment where the news isn’t trusted.
germy
catclub
from Martin Longman at Political Animal. I would say, that even before they killed a journalist, Saudi Arabia’s indiscriminate killing in Yemen is reason enough to stop supporting their mission there.
A Ghost To Most
Go long on hemp. We’re gonna need a lot of rope.
WaterGirl
@jeffreyw: My hope is that Mueller lays out the real story in unseal indictments like he did with all the Russians who were being indicted. Tell us a story in some indictments so that Rosenstein isn’t the only one who learns what Mueller has discovered.
Patricia Kayden
I want to believe that the American people will vote out Republicans who have colluded with their President to protect him from the consequences of his wrongdoing. If Republicans retain control of Congress, Trump is golden no matter what Mueller finds.
germy
Frankensteinbeck
@germy:
They’re already pushing that narrative. They’re pushing all the narratives, no matter how contradictory they are. Although they prefer ‘Democrats are the criminals’ approaches. Conservative thought is a fantasy world, far more unconnected to reality than mere ideologies like ‘tax cuts create jobs.’ You wouldn’t recognize is. Last I heard, they’re waiting for Mueller to be arrested.
germy
@A Ghost To Most:
Failing that, something to smoke.
Corner Stone
I’ve been wondering where Guiliani was. And I guess the second official is Sekulow?
germy
@Frankensteinbeck:
It’s what they do.
Like Mitch saying “These tax cuts will pay for themselves. Also, the deficit is exploding, so we need to seriously address your grandpa’s entitlements.”
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
Oh, we’ll know about it sooner or later. You know the saying, three can keep a secret if two of them are dead. Yes, there will be overwhelming pressure to keep this quiet, and that may count for something, but the pressures dragging it out will be stronger. The circle of those who know what’s in the report can only grow bigger, never smaller. We’ll know everything. How soon is something nobody can answer though.
WaterGirl
@germy: That’s gotta hurt.
Corner Stone
@jeffreyw:
“I very strongly deny all of it. I can tell you that I am very forceful on my total denial of this, believe me.”
IOW, exactly what he’s accepted as truth from every other scumbag/dictator who’s been accused of something he was obviously guilty of.
oldgold
It sure would have been nice to know these things before the election – time and timing.
Humdog
Coming to the very belated understanding that to have hope is to be brave. It can be cowardly to be cynical or hopeless.
I want to be brave so I better find my hope reserves.
Aziz, light!
What if the fix is in vis-a-vis Rosenstein and the report is not released because it is time to move forward, not rehash the past and besides releasing it would go against our national security and also it was all faked by angry Dems and never happened?
Corner Stone
@germy:
Wouldn’t want to do anything to upset the political applecart ahead of elections, now would we? That would be against our lovely guidelines that we always follow scrupulously.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: A few weeks ago I was reminded of the defense we would sometimes see in court when I worked with victims of rape and sexual assault.
“I didn’t do it, but if I did do it, it was consensual.”
That’s how I see the swirl of responses from Trump and the Republicans about collusion with Russia.
Steve in the ATL
@Frankensteinbeck:
1. That’s not my dog;
2. My dog doesn’t bite; and
3. I don’t have a dog.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
While it would be great to get good news from Mueller before the election it would be devastating to get bad news from Mueller before the election. Good news after the election would be a great benefit to Democrats, especially during the lame duck session. Bad news after the election would be bad for Democrats but could be tempered by Trump’s continued boorishness.
Aziz, light!
People say that Rosenstein is sort of a Democrat, that I can tell you.
Steve in the ATL
If mueller pulls a Patrick Fitzgerald, there is going to be a massive wave of depression sweeping the country. Starting in my house. Or, you know, wherever the hell I am that day.
WaterGirl
Oh, no. One of the comments above made me realize that my pie filter is completely gone. :: sigh ::
Corner Stone
While I believe the Kashoggi murder is in fact a very big deal, it kind of makes me shake my head that it continues to get 10-15 minutes in every hour segment of MSNBC, day after day. And yet the NYT report that Trump was a tax evader and had committed outright tax fraud, a term a paper does not use lightly, sank into the memory hole never to be discussed again. I’m guessing if only there was a bone saw involved somewhere in the NYT report it might have upped the gossip factor enough for them to find it interesting for longer than 6 hours.
A Ghost To Most
@germy: Got that covered.
WaterGirl
@Steve in the ATL: I see we are thinking along the same lines!
Schlemazel
So . . . Betty . . . you have a triumph of hope over experience.
A Ghost To Most
Jamal Khashoggi tortured with bone saw for 7 minutes while Saudi killer drowned out screams with music: Turkish source
Nice friends Dicktator Donald has.
WaterGirl
@A Ghost To Most: I think I’m going to throw up.
immanentize
So, on the bright side — this type of story, no matter how poorly sourced — is getting a bunch of traffic today. That’s a total positive. The more the voters are reminded that Mueller is still out there (to go X-Filey) the more Trump’s numbers go down and our chances improve. As Kay in the Morning says, the Democrats don’t need to mention Trump because he is everywhere all the time. And right now his take on Kashoggi is hurting him. Reminding people of the Russian conspiracy (which I think most people know is true) will hurt Republicans, and candidates should be able to make some hay with yesterday’s Turtle Talk as well.
Carry on.
Gator90
I expect Mueller’s report to be quite damning (as to both conspiracy and obstruction) from the perspective of traditional, conventional (i.e. pre-DJT) politics and morality. But I wonder if that perspective matters anymore. I see the Mueller report perhaps making a slightly (but only slightly) bigger impression than the recent NYT story documenting Trump’s career as a tax criminal. He will say it’s fake and rigged; the GOP will stand behind him; nothing much will change.
clay
@WaterGirl: Yeah… “U.S. officials” is so vague as to be completely meaningless. It doesn’t even say “officials with knowledge of the investigation”. I’m taking this with a whole mountain of rock salt.
Villago Delenda Est
I want Uday, Qusay, and Lolita to join their shitstain sire in prison for the rest of their lives.
If he can find a way to have the Slovenian whore stripped of citizenship and deported, that would be nice, too.
WaterGirl
@clay: Yeah, I wonder if even a park ranger could be considered a U.S. official. I think the answer is yes.
Jeffro
Kind of shuffling the deck here…can’t decide which of these are my top three rage factors with so many to choose from
– Trumpov trying to excuse/ignore the premeditated torture and murder of a journalist by a dictator who’s lining Trumpov’s pockets in perhaps the clearest example EVER of why the Emoluments Clause is there in the first place
– Trumpov publicly insulting the woman (who he paid off with campaign funds run through a shell corporation) he had an affair with just after his third wife had his fifth kid
– the Turtle having the fucking gall to propose cuts to Medicare and Social Security instead of repealing that monster giveaway to the rich and large corporations
– the GOP Congress standing by and doing NOTHING about the above
– most GOP candidates outright lying about how they will protect coverage for pre-existing conditions when they have been trying to overturn the ACA and/or the provisions that make it work (like the coverage mandate)
– most GOP candidates outright lying about their opponents being “for” MS-13, open borders, crime in general
– Ted fucking Cruz
– Trumpov hanging with Kanye and doing fundraisers before Hurricane Michael was even gone
– Fox already running hard with “hey…collusion’s ok!” BS
Not a good start, friends…today is looking quite ragey that’s for sure.
As
immanentize
Another positive. Trump is saying if the Republicans lose the house, it’s not his fault. If Trump is already pre-denying any responsibility, the internal numbers must be horrible for the Republicans. Drive on.
germy
Julián Castro is thinking about running for president 2020?
MazeDancer
Makes no sense for Mueller to reveal report until after new Congress starts.
Think this is more Trump trying to pressure Mueller. Let lame duck (we hope) Congress bury it.
geg6
Well, glad to see the Eeyore contingent is feeling frisky and full of happy thoughts today.
Personally, I just want this over, one way or another. Either we’re in a full out banana republic or we get rid of these thugs in power. I’m choosing to go with us getting rid of them.
Jeffro
Also, some psycho took out a FULL PAGE AD on the back of the Post’s front section, an ‘open letter’ to the President. No, not to accuse him of conspiracy with a hostile foreign power, violating the emoluments clause, committing campaign finance fraud, tax evasion, money laundering, sexual assault, or aiding in the cover-up of a torture and murder. It’s to PRAISE him up and down for standing up to the ‘Radical Left’. The tone is straight-up Franklin Graham shit, too. It’s sickening.
A Ghost To Most
@Villago Delenda Est: I want them all to get a fair trial, followed by a first class hanging.
WaterGirl
@Jeffro: Your top 4 are the most rage-inducing for me, but you forgot Christine Blasey Ford and Kavanaugh, which is still right up there for me.
We are so far off track as a country, something’s gotta give.
@germy: What makes you ask that this morning? I hope the answer is yes
OzarkHillbilly
@WaterGirl: He can’t issue indictments w/o Rosenstiens approval.
Mike in NC
Saudi Arabia is an active enemy, not friend. They planned 9/11 at the highest levels yet we invaded Iraq instead of them. Disgusting that Fat Bastard and his children are so enamored of the Saudis. The whole lot are money-grubbing scum.
dmsilev
@immanentize: I wish him all the best luck in that endeavor. Seriously, watching Republicans in Congress and Trump go back and forth on your-fault-no-your-fault on losing the midterms would be vastly entertaining and also productive for us.
Butter Emails!!!
Just a thought, but my assumption is that the sources for this article are either the same or closely tied to those sources who were trying to force out Rosenstein a few weeks ago by pushing the narrative he had resigned. I simply don’t trust anything relayed by the press about Rosenstein or the Mueller investigation unless it’s actually announced by Rosenstein or his spokesperson, or there is actual hard proof, like actual indictments, court papers, or videos and eye witnesses of the FBI raiding someone’s house.
OzarkHillbilly
@oldgold: DoJ rules.
WaterGirl
@geg6: I hope you’re not thinking that being sickened by the latest details of the gruesome torture and murder of a US journalist.
If you’re referring to the likes of comment #19 from a nym I don’t even recognize, then yeah, Eeyore works for me.
WaterGirl
@Butter Emails!!!: Rosenstein has no business pushing Mueller to wrap it up. Some things that the amount of time they take, and I think investigations fall into that category. Of course, we have no idea whether it’s even true that Rosenstein is pushing Mueller to wrap it up.
In college, I once had 7 term papers due the same week, and by the time I got to #7, I was not doing my best work. In fact, I titled it “Vacuum” as an indication of how good it was.
This article should be called “Pure Speculation from Unknown Sources, Agenda Unknown”.
WaterGirl
@OzarkHillbilly: I was afraid of that as I typed what I wrote.
oldgold
I am well aware of the guidelines and discussed them here from May through Labor Day.
oldgold
OzarkHillbilly:
I am well aware of the guidelines and discussed them here from May through Labor Day.
OzarkHillbilly
@clay: The “as he faces intensifying pressure to produce more indictments or shut down his investigation” tells you from which direction these sources hail from.
geg6
@WaterGirl:
You are correct.
And as the daughter of a journalist (my mom was a newspaper reporter), I cannot even begin to discuss my rage at KoSA. I’ve despised them since 9/11 and my hate has just been kicked up a notch I didn’t even know I had.
Schlemazel
@geg6:
Experience is a rough tutor. But really it is a mistake to hope Mueller can save us, we have to save us. For all the reasons we eeyores have expressed here (and more) we are the only thing we can count on. Fitsmass or Muellerhunaka are beautiful dreams and it would be great to get the gift we asked for but they are not guaranteed. Get people out to vote, pressure elected reps at every level constantly and never give up
SiubhanDuinne
@A Ghost To Most:
This detail is terrifyingly similar to Christine Blasey Ford’s account of the Kavanaugh-Judge assault on her.
WaterGirl
@dmsilev: I always enjoy your comments here, but it looks like we disagree on this one.
It would be entertaining and it might be productive, if it weren’t for children in cages, black men being murdered with impunity, credible rape victims being ridiculed and tossed aside, millions of people being denied their right to vote, irreversible climate change, and journalists being tortured and in unspeakable ways.
And with that happy comment, I have to close the computer and head to my meeting.
Barbara
@A Ghost To Most:
I suspect and I hope that Turkey is inflicting its own kind of torture — psychological only, of course — on Trump and everyone around him but especially Jared Kushner for being so evidently bought and paid for and willing to do the bidding of such a completely depraved human being.
OzarkHillbilly
@WaterGirl: I’m not afraid of it.
aretino
the punchline being that Robert Mueller is a Republican.
And, truth be told, that makes me less than sanguine about the prospects here.
germy
@WaterGirl:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/politics/julian-castro-interview-2020-bid-likely/index.html
Mr. Castro says it is likely he’ll run.
randy khan
@immanentize:
McConnel’s comments are much worse for the Republicans than anything else currently in the news. They’re a gift.
And any jackal in social media should be spreading that news far and wide, with a reminder that the real reason the deficit is exploding is the tax cuts that went overwhelmingly to the rich.
immanentize
@Barbara: Pompeo is not doing the United States proud, either.
tobie
@WaterGirl: We don’t know what Rosenstein is doing but I’ve never trusted him. I still remember him coming out of a closed-door meeting with the House Intelligence committee beaming and my first reaction was, “He’s sold the country out for the sake of his party.” The fact that he came to the Kavanaugh hearing on the first day and made a point of giving his friend a congratulatory pat on the back was telling. Like Kavanaugh, Rosenstein is an alum of the Ken Starr inquisition. He’s got some nerve allegedly telling Mueller to hurry when he and his buddies spent years going through the Clintons’ laundry.
OzarkHillbilly
@oldgold: Then why do you bother?
feebog
I think it will go down this way; another round of indictments, including Donnie Jr. and the Prince of Nerds. Mueller will have the report ready and waiting, along with a sealed indictment of the Orange Turd. Then it will be up to DAG Rosenstein to either make the report public or send it to congress. This does not happen until January with a Democratic majority in the House (at least).
tobie
@randy khan: Ron Klain had a good tweet about what the Dems stand for recently:
Add to that: shoring up Medicare and Social Security and preventing the GOP from privatizing them and you’ve good a punchy campaign platform.
Barbara
@immanentize: One wonders whether Nikki Haley resigned over this, although it hadn’t yet become the firestorm it is now.
clay
@SiubhanDuinne: Well, Trump DID say that the accusations against Saudi Arabia were just like those against Brett.
Bruce K
@A Ghost To Most:
I’m partial to piano wire for the gibbets myself, but I’m willing to compromise.
schrodingers_cat
After I read the post, I wondered to myself how long it would take for trollgold to appear. (10.11-9.54) = 17 minutes.
gene108
I am prepared to be disappointed. I don’t think we’ll ever get to the bottom of how corrupt Trump is.
schrodingers_cat
@clay: How many people has Special K dispatched?
Ocotillo
@germy: I am from San Antonio and while he was a good mayor, he was not a great mayor. He is very young and needs to get out and work Texas to help move it from the blood red hue that it is now.
I suspect he is actually running for veep but I would like to see (especially if Beto wins) for Julian to sack up and run against the odious Cornyn.
immanentize
@Barbara: That has been my theory since the day she resigned. And yesterday, we learned the Saudi Ambassador left the US for good just about the time she resigned.
schrodingers_cat
@OzarkHillbilly: Orders from the Kremlin? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
MattF
@A Ghost To Most: Don’t forget Vlad ‘the defenstrator’ Putin and Kim ‘it’s only neck makeup’ Jong Un.
Baud
@tobie: Aside from the amount of the minimum wage increase, how is that different than what we’ve always stood for?
oldgold
@OzarkHillbilly:
Why do I bother? That is a damn good question. It sure has not accrued to my benefit around here.
Baud
@germy: It might be easier to talk about who won’t be running.
Brachiator
Great post.
I think that Mueller will deliver a lot about Russian meddling, but nothing that clearly implicates Trump, nor any of the people closest to him (like his idiot sons).
Baud
@Brachiator: I think so too.
Elizabelle
NotMax clued me into the Grey Lady’s 70-year long proclivities here (70 years of reform-praising and burnishing of Saudi Arabia), but headline on Tom Friedman’s column today: the FTF NY Times:
… Personally, I don’t care if Saudi Arabia is ruled by M.B.S., S.O.S. or K.F.C.
It had to do with how I defined our most important national interest in Saudi Arabia since 9/11. And it is not oil, it’s not arms sales, it’s not standing up to Iran. It’s Islamic religious reform, which can come only from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam’s holiest cities, Mecca and Medina.[Friedman’s italics]
MattF
@Barbara: I’d believe that Turkey is doing that if I had a clue about their motivation. I suppose ‘because it’s the right thing to do’ isn’t going to be believable.
Gravenstone
@Jeffro:
Dude, you know damn well half the reason those tax cuts were pushed forward was to set the conditions that allowed Turtle and company to go after the social safety net, again.
gene108
@Corner Stone:
1. Math is hard. That’s why I got into journalism.
2. Numbers are math. That’s why I avoid them as a journalist.
3. Taxes are confusing. That’s why I have an accountant to do them for me.
4. Taxes are boring. That’s why I just hand them off to my accountant.
We’ll never get a thorough follow through by the media regarding something like taxes. It’s way too complicated for the media to tackle and package into a 10 minute segment on the news shows.
I mean anything involving taxes or the economy is going to be ignored, because those involve learning about areas journalists went into journalism to avoid learning about.
This is why Republicans can talk about how competition will solve all our healthcare problems, because no reporter will bother to learn about price elasticity of demand and the fact that if the choice is between medical service A or remaining sick or dying, you really don’t have a lot of bargaining power.
Ken Shabby
Wondered what Trump kept talking to Rosenstein about. Hope it’s not some kind of deal on this. Not concern trolling. Occam and Spock’s razor.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: @Baud: What makes you think that?
Butter Emails!!!
@tobie:
Don’t forget: Investment in decaying national infrastructure, combating global warming and placing limits on the poison that companies are allowed dump into your air and water supply. Oh, also rape, sexual assault and pedophilia are wrong mmmmKay.
Ken Shabby
@Elizabelle:
I know someone pulling hard for K.F.C. If you know what I mean and I think you do.
schrodingers_cat
@Butter Emails!!!: Rs want to do the United States what Vulture capitalists did to Sears (and other companies before it)
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: Nothing. Just gut. Hope to be pleasantly surprised.
Ken Shabby
@gene108:
See: Bush.
Extra help: The Supremes. You can’t hurry love.
Baud
@Butter Emails!!!:
If we stand for too many good things, how can we get a majority?
trollhattan
@Gravenstone:
The best way to show you need a bigger fire department is to go out and set fires.
Butter Emails!!!
@Butter Emails!!!:
I keep missing important ones. Hunting people with skin darker than printer paper for sport, locking their children in cages or letting them die in war torn hellscapes because the sound of a foreign language makes you spontaneously soil your Depends is evil.
Uncle Cosmo
@oldmold: Fuckin’ A right, you imbecile piece of trash. STFU & crawl back under your rock.
schrodingers_cat
Majority of the 9/11 bombers were from Saudi Arabia and yet T goes to bat for the murderous Crown Prince of the corrupt monarchy. IIRC SA is not among those countries that T slapped the Muslim ban on. Why? Is it because they are lining his pockets?
rp
@Baud: True, but isn’t that kind of the point? The argument that Dems don’t stand for anything has always been a ridiculous media myth.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I have no idea what will happen either. I don’t want to speculate one way or the other. Right now all my focus is on November. Paws crossed.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: Smart kitty.
Baud
@rp: Agreed. And it’s a myth that’s repeated too often by people who should know better.
Cermet
This, like how bloody hands cheney with his bush sock puppet, were held accountable for torture – not.
Butter Emails!!!
@Baud:
How about “Democrats: We figure out what racist, degenerate, greedy assholes would support and do the opposite.”
cmorenc
@SiubhanDuinne:
The difference is that while Kashoggi was tortured with a bone saw, Christine Blasey Ford was tortured with a boner.
oldgold
@schrodingers_cat:
Quality thinking! You got me!
That I have advocated for an accounting as to what happened in the 2016 election before we cast our ballots this November, is surely an excellent indicator that I am a Russian troll.
Mike in DC
@Elizabelle:
Idiotic. Islam doesn’t have a pope, and Riyadh is not Vatican city. Reform can come from literally any majority Muslim country.
dmsilev
@WaterGirl: I think you may have misread me slightly. What I was getting at was “confusion and infighting among our enemies, which hopefully will minimize the additional damage that they will do.”
tobie
@Butter Emails!!!: Good points. Here’s a revised list of what Dems stand for:
Universal health care
$15 min wage
debt-free college
child care & paid fam leave
rebuild our crumbling infrastructure
protect and fortify Medicare and Social Security
combat climate change
keep our air and water clean
fight terrorists with allies
restore global alliances & America’s reputation abroad
Elizabelle
@Mike in DC: It is a slim reed, isn’t it? And isn’t it likely that the worst of the worst religious types have made common cause with the leadership? Seems to have happened in this fine country.
Reform can come from outside the kingdom too.
gvg
@jeffreyw: Trump has been talented at getting away with stuff in the face of evidence, however notice that the people around him haven’t been. I think Mueller may need to cut down a few more other than Trump crooks, before Donnie can fall.
Strategically I want Pence, and I am furiously suspicious of Ryan and McConnel. I really think this investigation is going to go into Congress too and that is also a factor in why they aren’t holding Trump accountable.
I have my suspicious about the big money Americans too. Mercer and some others.
We need to fund and expand the IRS investigation section. I thought so since 2008 and am certain now. It’s dangerous not to know what is going on behind that much money, and I’m not just talking about the Russians.
schrodingers_cat
@oldgold: So your constant concern trolling about Mueller is a labor of love? Sorry, my bad for misjudging you.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat: RE: I think that Mueller will deliver a lot about Russian meddling, but nothing that clearly implicates Trump, nor any of the people closest to him (like his idiot sons).
Based on the specific individuals interviewed and indicted so far. And the nature and scope of investigations in other countries. Plenty of evidence that Russia has meddled with and tried to influence elections in Europe and the US. But nothing anywhere to show that Russia has directly compromised high level politicians.
Still, this is just a guess, and not anything I hope would be the case. The bottom line is that we have to wait to see what will happen. In the meantime, we can push things in the direction we want by voting as many Republicans out of office as possible with the midterm elections.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: If he wasn’t a self-important douchecanoe, Friedman would STFU about the Middle East forever after he proved so catastrophically wrong about the Iraq War.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Oldgold is T for tiresome, that is for sure.
FWIW, I think Mueller is strategizing this out carefully. You cannot do all this meticulous work to have the criminal(s) in charge bury the whole thing.
I was still glad to stay optimistic on Kavanaugh (although it was a bad several days once I realized they had elevated that jackass to the USSC — lucky you, John Roberts! — burnish this one!) because anger and optimism are easier to focus into work than is despair.
Despair kills. It’s why the GOP and their media lapdogs have it on the menu for us, all the time. Dems in disarray.
Well, maybe not! Stay tuned!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Gator90: What he said.
Plus I expect Mueller will find a lot of clear cut, “the Trump campaigned tried to..” and not so clear stuff on the Russian side. Like that joint press conference were Trump was slobbering over Putin and Putin gave Trump a soccer ball with a GPS tracker in it.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Petrodollars are sweet. Vichy Times and its reporters are on sale just like our Dear Leader, if the price is right. Russian mafiosi, Saudi princelings doesn’t matter, since money is fungible.
ETA: That’s the reason they get along so well and have a cozy relationship.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat:
Given that money is the only thing Trump has consistently mentioned when asked about the Kashoggi murder, it is disgustingly clear that not only is he for sale (bought and paid for) but US foreign policy/morals/leadership/realpolitik is also available for a (cheap) price.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: But then he’d have to shut up about everything. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s not going to happen– Friedman is a charter member of the ‘wrong about everything’ club.
Hitlesswonder
@MattF: I think Turkey believes that Kurdish separatists are funded by the Kingdom, and they would like very much to weaken a regional adversary. If the US interrupts arms sales and support for the Kingdom’s existing military hardware and systems, that would be a significant blow to Saudi capabilities and ultimately finances as well.
Elizabelle
@Brachiator: I wonder if there’s a document trail (or several oral accounts that have been verified) that has led Team Mueller to some middling to big fish who have not been interviewed because doing so would tip Trump et al to what Mueller knows?
I continue to hope for an overwhelming case that gets Trump and Mitch McConnell and all those assholes to STFU and start worrying about the possibility of serious federal time.
And what’s going on with the NRA investigation? That’s been perking along, I would guess, without many leaks so far …
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@gvg
My take on it is basically the GOP is now one giant fund raising ponzie scheme with Trump at the top so that’s why they all are taking the hit for him. And it’s all starting to fall apart.
Corner Stone
God, Trump just can’t stop lying. And it’s always lying about the money aspect of our “alliance” with Saudi Arabia.
Brachiator
@gvg:
There is not a chance of this happening until after 2020, assuming that Democrats win a majority in both houses of the Congress and also win the presidency.
@Mike in DC:
Mecca and Medina are holier than Vatican City.
In theory, yes. In practice, more problematic.
J R in WV
@oldgold:
I find your always on point insights into pie culture very beneficial to the world geo-political conversation, actually. Thanks!
Gelfling 545
@germy: Oddly, in early summer my sister who follows politics only in the mildest sense brought his name up to me as someone she could support. She hopes to see a bigger change in which our principles as Democrats cannot be used to our disadvantage and for some reason feels Càstro can fill the bill. I have no reason to oppose him but haven’t seen any compelling reason (aside from not a Republican) to support either.
Amir Khalid
@Elizabelle:
Despite the geographical location of Makkah and Madinah, Saudi Arabia is not to Islam what the Vatican is to the Catholic Church. It does not have, and has never had, ownership of Islam — even of just Sunni Islam — whatever it may tell itself or the world. It is rich and powerful enough to influence Islam and Muslims the world over, yes, but no one considers its influence entirely positive.
Reform within Islam is of course necessary; but I don’t agree that it is possible only if it comes from Saudi Arabia, among the most reactionary Islamic regimes around and thus a highly unlikely source of reform. Only a minority of Muslims are Saudi or even Arab. There are far more Muslims in Asia and Africa and the west, and it seems to me that any reform in Islam is much more likely to come from outside the Arab world.
Gelfling 545
@Barbara: It would show a wisdom uncommon in Republicans to get out BEFORE if hit the fan.
Brachiator
@Elizabelle:
Interesting possibilities. About the only thing I can say for sure is that Mueller and his team seems to know what they are doing, and so I have confidence in them. But I am not sure that they will be able to deliver a knockout blow. That’s for the voters to take care of.
ETA: also, I think that the commenters here who are lawyers have respect for Team Mueller. I find this reassuring.
Amir Khalid
@Brachiator:
Yes, it is. KSA can do like Trump does, and it often has: sit there with arms folded, and pout at everyone else trying to get things done. But there is always a limit to how much you can do this. It excludes you from the discussion, and ultimately diminishes your influence.
oldgold
@Brachiator:
I have respect for Mueller. I just think he has moved too slowly and opaquely.
Betty Cracker
@Amir Khalid: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
Elizabelle
@Amir Khalid: Someone should tell that intrepid (and world trotting) columnist, Tom Friedman.
Must be nice to have a NY Times expense account and perch. Does not mean you are an actual oracle, or even a particularly good reporter.
NY Times does have some excellent reporters. Just not on the political team. Dan Barry is incredible.
I must remember to write the FTF NYTimes and ask them for a discount since I don’t read their GOP/Politico style political reporting.
NYCMT
Geoffrey Berman, USA for SDNY, is prosecuting a senior FinCen employee named Natalie Sours Edwards for leaking tens of thousands of Suspicious Activity Report Statements (regarding Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, and others) to Buzzfeed. She was arrested this morning.
Do not trust the SDNY to prosecute anything at all going forward. This is part of the cover-up – the vengeful persecution of internal dissent by government officials. I feel this is like the Pentagon Papers.
Mnemosyne
@A Ghost To Most:
As I was saying with morbid humor the other day, I suspected that a normal “soundproof” room was not going to be able to contain the screams of a man being tortured to death.
Imagine being part of the Saudi consulate staff sitting at your desk trying to get some work done while Khashoggi’s dying screams are echoing through the building. That was probably part of the message, though —This is what happens to dissenters. Keep your mouths shut, or the same thing will happen to you and your families.
Corner Stone
@NYCMT: I haven’t read the story, so – I’m not sure what your take is on the arrest? Did she actually leak the SARs? If so, shouldn’t she be charged or held to account?
gene108
@schrodingers_cat:
There’s a clip that got some playing time recently, from Trump in 2015. He said Saudi Arabia paid him $40 or $50 million and therefore he’ll have a good relationship with them.
So yes, there are or were lining his pockets enough to get away with murder.
stan
Yup. I suspect it’s because the Times thinks “everyone knows this already”. Therefore, not ‘news’.
I was running for office once against an incredibly corrupt incumbent. A local reporter literally told me, “Yeah, everyone knows he’s corrupt so we don’t do stories on that”.
A bit frustrating!
Just Chuck
I believe Republicans are going to be punished electorally for 2016 in 2018 and quite possibly 2020. I have zero faith that this trend will last beyond 2020 or that justice will, if it’s served at all, will be durable in the slightest. In my heart, this country is dead to me.
Harry Hamid
I agree. It would be great to know that our elected officials can be held legally accountable for their crimes. When I look at, for example, the lack of accountability during the Bush years, where we know what they did to get us into war and NO ONE was ever really held accountable for what should have been one of the most embarrassing and horrific war crimes of recent memory, I don’t know.
Dare to dream.
gene108
@Amir Khalid:
Gets overlooked by U.S. media, which seems to think the Arab world is all of Islam, but half of all Muslims live in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. The nation with the highest Muslim population is Indonesia. In other words, most Muslims are Asian.
They all have their own cultures and traditions, which are independent of Saudi Arabia and are a lot more tolerant.
And I agree, if change going to happen in Islam, it will not be from the Arab world.
hitchhiker
I call bullshit.
Two sources gave this to Bloomberg? Who benefits from suggesting that it’s all about to wrap up?
Since when does anybody in the Mueller circle talk to reporters? Since never! Every bloody time there’s been a leak about the investigation, it’s been somebody inside Trump world hoping to spin whatever’s happening.
Mueller is doing whatever he’s doing, and like it or not the Democrats are going to hold public hearings with witnesses under subpoena come January. It took two goddamn years to force Richard Nixon to trudge out of the White House & decades more to see all the evidence investigators had at the time … we’re going to get to the bottom of this, tho’ at 66 I’m not sure I’ll live to see it happen.
Elizabelle
@hitchhiker: (1) agree with your comment. (2) hope you get to see all of this play out and a return to improving our country, not looting it.
I am gonna hope you see Kavanaugh’s ass tossed off the Supreme Court, too. A girl can dream. And maybe Gorsuch’s too, while we are at it. “Justices” appointed by an illegitimate POTUS.
tobie
@hitchhiker: Good point. Don’t know why we fall for this bullshit again and again. (I mean “we” in the sense of visible websites like TPM which report this stuff but don’t question a. who’s leaking and b. cui bono.) I guess we’re all desperate for some damning info to come out of the Mueller probe.
mr gravity
@A Ghost To Most: The Saudis must have followed the Kavanaugh hearings.
schrodingers_cat
@gene108: Indian Islam is so much more colorful than the black starkness of the SA kind.
NYCMT
@Corner Stone: they had a PEN register on her cell phone and found the encrypted messages, which she kept.
My take? This is like Reality Winner. She blew the whistle, revealing a torrent of criminality, and is getting punished.
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: Have you read Naipaul’s books on Islam? What did you think? After reading those I finally realized what a fucking orientalist that guy was. I never much liked his books on India either but gave him the benefit of the doubt.
A thoroughly unpleasant codger who never met a Muslim or a lower caste person he could disparage.
ruemara
And the Republican held Congress will do jack/squat.
catclub
@gene108:
of course, most Christians do not live in Europe, but the Rome ‘n branch punches way above its weight.
Having possession of Mecca gives SA a lot of leverage.
catclub
@schrodingers_cat:
ftfy
schrodingers_cat
@catclub: Thanks for the correction!
Denali
I came to this thread because it was about Mueller report. I am trying to avoid the drip drip of the grisly details of the Kashoggi murder. It is obvious that the intent is to scare and intimidate the public, not to mention journalists. To find out that our leaders collude in the murder of journalists is truly horrifying. It is also upsetting to feel so helpless. The evil has corrupted all our institutions and is tainting all of us.
JGabriel
Betty Cracker @ Top:
Funny thing, I remember that when Clinton was President, Republicans said: Only Republcans can investigate Democrats, and only Republicans can control what the public can know about the findings.
It’s almost like Republicans want to set up all the rules so that, win or lose, they’re the only ones who ever have any power.
catclub
@Denali:
Stalin was right. One murder is a tragedy, a million killed in Yemen is a statistic.
James E Powell
@gene108:
If it were a Clinton, it would be featured every night with flow charts, graphs, and twenty-seven 8 by 10 glossies with the circles and arrows. Not to mention regular appearances by economically anxious white people and soldiers in uniform crying out at the injustice of it all.
WaterGirl
@dmsilev: Ah, I did not get that from what you wrote. Thanks.