Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

“Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on.”

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

When they say they are pro-life, they do not mean yours.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

They want us to be overwhelmed and exhausted. Focus. Resist. Oppose.

This really is a full service blog.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty. ~Thomas Jefferson

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

Today in our ongoing national embarrassment…

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

This fight is for everything.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

When I was faster i was always behind.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Dear media: perhaps we ought to let Donald Trump speak for himself!

Innocent people do not delay justice.

You are here: Home / Politics / America / This Morning in Domestic Terrorism

This Morning in Domestic Terrorism

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The Pittsburgh Police Department has responded to an active shooter in the Squirrel Hill area of Pittsburgh near one of the synagogues.

The local CBS News affiliate, KDKA News, is reporting that at least eight people have been killed, three police officers wounded, and that the shooter who is wounded and has now surrendered, was barricaded on the third floor of the synagogue.

Here’s the quick briefing the police commander on the scene provided:

It is important to remember that almost no Jews who are observing the sabbath this morning at synagogue will actually know about them because they’re in services,

Mara Gay, of The New York Times editorial board, has this exactly right:

I’d go further. Every one of the President’s most retrogade, most revanchist, neo-nationalist, neo-fascist, and/or neo-NAZI supporters know exactly what it means when he bad mouths the globalists or when he declares himself a nationalist. Despite his disingenuous statements the day after calling himself a nationalist, the President clearly knows what it means as well, which is why he said “we’re not supposed to use the word”.

MSNBC is reporting that the shooter was screaming anti-Semitic slurs during the attack and that the police are checking a suspicious package to ensure it isn’t an improvised explosive device. So the message that the President, his enablers, and his fellow travelers are transmitting is being received.

I understand that the President is, at best, oblivious to anyone who isn’t him or isn’t doing something he perceives as in his interest in any moment. He appears to be inherently and innately transactional. However, his inherent racism, anti-Semitism, and xenophobia, whether rooted in his transactional nature or something else, is a continuing clear and present danger to American citizens, those non-citizens legally residing in the US, and those visiting the US. If he is unable or unwilling to bring himself to publicly address the country, denounce this in no uncertain terms, then it is further evidence he is unfit for the office that he currently occupies. And if no other elite or notable Republican officials or former officials will do so for fear of crossing their base, who are the President’s most fervent supporters, or for fear of receiving a mean tweet, they too are unfit. They are unfit for the offices they hold or have held and their are unfit to claim the mantle American.

This will be a fast moving story and new information will be coming out over the next 24 to 48 hours, but the real worry right now is for copycats. Given that services will be ending soon on the east coast, the threat shifts to the intermountain west and west coasts. Churches whose congregants are predominantly people of color or LBTQ need to lay on extra security for tomorrow. Especially for those churches doing souls to the polls early voting!

I leave the final words to President Washington, which should be the template for how elected officials in the US speak on these matters:

If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good government, to become a great and happy people.

The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy—a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my administration and fervent wishes for my felicity.

May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants—while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

May the father of all mercies scatter light, and not darkness, upon our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in His own due time and way everlastingly happy.

G. Washington

Update at 12:40 PM EDT

They have identified the domestic terrorist who attacked the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, PA this morning.

From KDKA:

PITTSBURGH (KDKA) — Police say a gunman opened fire at a Pittsburgh Synagogue yelling “All Jews must die.”

KDKA-TV sources say the shooting suspect is Robert Bowers.

Eight people have been killed and a number of others injured after the shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Squirrel Hill on Saturday.

Bowers is described as a white male, heavy set, with a beard. He surrendered to police after opening fire on police officers. Police say he was injured and crawling when he was taken into custody.

Three police officers were also shot, their conditions are not currently known.

When officers arrived, the gunman reportedly shot at them, forcing officers to use their vehicles as a shield.

Police sources tell KDKA’s Andy Sheehan the gunman walked into the building and yelled, “All Jews Must die.”

Sheehan confirmed that eight people were confirmed dead. Others had been shot but the extent of their injuries in unknown at this time.

The shooting happened during weekly Shabbat services at the conservative Jewish Synagogue, the building was full was full of people for a Saturday service.

The President is also making a brief statement from the tarmac at Joint Base Andrews and has indicated he will make a more significant statement at his scheduled appearance with the Future Farmers of America conference later today.

Of course, the President couldn’t help himself and had to have a Q&A. He’s now blamed the synagogue for this because he says “the temple didn’t have an armed guard inside”. We’re right back to neutralization and drift. He just denied the victimization of the victims. This has to be seen and heard to be believed:

Updated at 1:10 PM EDT

And here’s your social learning link back to the President’s rhetoric:

Stay alert! And vote!

Open thread.

 

Reader Interactions

273Comments

  1. 1.

    Jerzy Russian

    I have no words at the moment. I guess I will go back to bed (I haven’t been getting enough sleep at work lately).

  2. 2.

    A Ghost To Most

    The people I know, who have been waiting all their lives for this moment, may see this as their signal to go.

  4. 4.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Jordan Hoffman @ jhoffman
    To Jewsplain a bit: Tree of Life is a “Conservative” synagogue, which doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means. It’s a denomination w/in Judaism (think Episcopalian or Baptists within Protestantism) and you get the drift. Please RT b/c people are already going nuts.

    At first this confused me, because Episcopalian and Baptist have very different meanings to me, as a secular, lapsed-Catholic agnostic, then the penny dropped: I’d guess MAGAts are trying to say this was a leftist attack on politically conservative Jews.

  5. 5.

    Mike in NC

    He has 13 rallies lined up, so plenty of time for more demonizing of critics, and more related bloodshed, before the election.

  6. 6.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That was an attempt at explaining it is a denomination within Judaism like Episcopalian or Southern Baptist is within Christianity. Conservative isn’t referring to political stance.

  8. 8.

    zhena gogolia

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    To be reductive about it, Conservative is between Reform and Orthodox.

    Thank you, Adam, for this post. I am terrified for my country. How could we have fallen so far so fast? I had so much hope in 2008-16!

  10. 10.

    Adam L Silverman

    I just want to note, that the DHS official, a political appointee of the President, who recommend that DHS do this, is Seb Gorka’s idiot wife.

  11. 11.

    cain

    So, it seems all places of worship are targets. Black churches, synagogues, temples and so forth. We’re going to have good security for all of them going forward. I wonder what the NRA is going to say about all this, hmm? Two AK-15s and two pistols. The guy was armed to the teeth. Does the NRA believe we should arm ourselves while we pray.

  12. 12.

    Mike in DC

    Local reporter says that a bris taking place at the synagogue that day. Knock it off with the Soros/globalism shit for even a couple weeks, assholes!

  13. 13.

    MattF

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I expect to see displays of ignorance from the usual RW suspects on this subject. FWIW, ‘Conservative’ in this context means ‘observant but only up to a point’. So, e.g., Conservative Jews may or may not keep a kosher household– Conservative congregations are positioned between Orthodox, who will generally keep kosher, and Reform, who will not.

  14. 14.

    Adam L Silverman

    @zhena gogolia: We have been here before. We have come through it stronger. We are in a luke warm, irregular civil war. Mourn the dead, prepare for the next skirmish. The 3 meter target are the mid-terms. The 10 meter target is how the President’s supporters respond to the mid-terms. Win or lose, they will not respond well.

  15. 15.

    Frankensteinbeck

    Have I mentioned I think Trump considers himself a Nazi? Evidence only piles up in that regard.

  17. 17.

    Mart

    Last night I watched in horror the most vile policy free Republican ad basically claiming rivers of blood in the streets due to Dems actively promoting illegal brown people to come here. I was in a meeting Monday where seven men were incited about Soros paying everyone in the caravan $5,000 a piece to come here. I joked, a bit scared to show my colors, and said that is crazy talk, maybe spend some time away from Info Wars. They did not laugh with me. I would guess six of the seven are college educated. I have been scared about this since the day that POS announced he was running. It is here. Fascist USA. (I spent a year at Taylor Allderdice H.S. in Squirrel Hill – it was me and the kids bused in from Homewood who attended class on Jewish Holidays. My best friend in STL is Jewish, but we rarely get together as he is a Trumper. Maybe this will change his vote? Or is Soros a bad Jew who caused all this. Probably the later.)

  19. 19.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Adam L Silverman: right, it took me a minute to grok that someone felt the need to explain that.

    I usually think of that kind of stuff as common knowledge, then I remember that in 1989 a college acquaintance felt the need to explain to me, as the Catholic I still called myself, that he was a Christian, which word he enunciated slowly, as if it would be exotic and confusing to my mackerel-snapping, Rome-puppeted small-brain

  21. 21.

    JanieM

    Thanks as usual, Adam, especially for this (my bold):

    If he is unable or unwilling to bring himself to publicly address the country, denounce this in no uncertain terms, then it is further evidence he is unfit for the office that he currently occupies. And if no other elite or notable Republican officials or former officials will do so for fear of crossing their base, who are the President’s most fervent supporters, or for fear of receiving a mean tweet, they too are unfit. They are unfit for the offices they hold or have held and their are unfit to claim the mantle American.

    This is an eloquent framing that I am going to use whenever anyone tells me that they’re still a Republican because they have high hopes of rescuing their party from the lunatics. I might send it to my lost-cause senator (Collins) as well, for all the good it will do.

  22. 22.

    cain

    @Adam L Silverman:

    @cain: They do actually.

    Yes, it’s a great scheme cuz we buy more guns for which their paymasters will have bigger profits. I have no plans to buy guns. We can just have security services in our places of worship. I am lead to believe many already do this.

  24. 24.

    banditqueen

    And the “Resident stated yesterday, “I could really tone it up”. And he will hold another rally tonight. In the last few days:
    –white supremacist at a Kroger store shoots two African-Americans
    –Democratic politicians targeted with bombs
    –pipe bombs found in Buffalo, NY
    –…
    –>VOTE

  26. 26.

    Brachiator

    Just recently woke up to get my day started, and figured there might be follow up about the bomber.

    Instead, new tragedy.

    My heart goes out to those involved and to those who will have to endure any pain because of this heinous act.

  28. 28.

    Sister Golden Bear

    I’m shocked, but unsurprised.

    And I’m prepared for more of this. As Adam said, they’re sore losers and and even more sore winners.

    To borrow from ACT UP!, we’re at a place where “silence = death,” and so we need to speak out and fight at every turn. And yes, that means putting a target on one’s back. But for many of us, we’re already targets.

    Mourn the dead, fight like hell for the living. – Mother Jones

  29. 29.

    Kay

    We need to talk about the financial incentives at some point:

    @JVLast
    19h19 hours ago
    More Jonathan V. Last Retweeted ConservativeLA
    People outside the conservative media don’t appreciate how strong the incentives are to get onboard. Whole careers have been made by people deciding to Baghdad Bob for Trump. Any half-known conservative willing to do that was handed a winning lottery ticket.

    It’s funny because we actually DID talk about this after the 2012 Presidential election. There was public, mainstream discussion about how conservatism had turned into a giant grift and they were all getting rich on extremism. Then Trump came along and it all got much, much worse.

    It’s profitable. It won’t change until it isn’t.

  30. 30.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    To be super super reductive in a way that will probably make Adam wince:

    Orthodox Jews = Catholics
    Conservative Jews = Episcopalians
    Reform Jews = Methodists, with some verging on Unitarian

  31. 31.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Got MSNBC on mute, trump is speaking off the cuff between his car and AF-1. I wonder if Kellyanne had time to get some safe banalities into his head.

  32. 32.

    West of the Rockies

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    I remember getting that shit, too (back when I still thought of myself as Catholic).

    As for the morning’s events, I find myself wondering about the meta math. Will some wingnuts be further motivated to be violent? How many will actually be disturbed and back away from the void?

    Are things getting worse or slowly, slowly better?

  33. 33.

    Beatrice Blacklow

    MagaFucker just blamed the victims, said they should have had better security! Then went on to call for death penalty.

  34. 34.

    patrick II

    Chris Hayes started his show last night by calling Cesar Sayoc the “Magabomber”. I hope this guy gets called the Pittsburgh Magashooter. I want Maga to be as ubiquitous for right wing violence as “gate” is for other types of scandal

  35. 35.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Bowers apparently tweeted this morning that HIAS (Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society) brings in people who kill us. He said he was “going in.”

    So there’s a confluence of anti-immigrant and anti-Semitic threads. Hm. Where else have I heard that?

  39. 39.

    schrodingers_cat

    The only person I know in IRL who is a T voter is Jewish. He assured my husband that really we had nothing to worry to about, because T was moderate unlike that war mongering bitch.

  40. 40.

    Ohio Mom

    @cain: I wouldn’t say “all places of worship are targets.” For one, I think anyone at a mega-church is safe.

    It is minority congregations that are at risk: Muslim, Jewish, African American, Unitarian, etc.

  41. 41.

    geg6

    Annnnnd! The “president” is now blaming the victims because they didn’t have armed security on duty for services.

    I hate him. Hate. His. Fucking. Guts.

  47. 47.

    cain

    @Kay:

    It’s profitable. It won’t change until it isn’t.

    They are rich on Boomer fear. The generation that tends to believe what they watch and hear on TV/Radio. They are also the largest generation. In about ten years, conservative grift won’t make as much money as they used to. It will be a much smaller pool because subsequent generation are much smaller than the boomer generation. Grifting also will need to be more targeted.

    Instead, grifting will be done through the facebook/google/apple – the data collection complex that spies on you and figures out what you are talking about through your phone. That’s where things are going to get. It won’t be fox news, it’ll be something much more sophisticated. If these technologies can detect your bigotry it can make money off of it.

  48. 48.

    hoodie

    Of course, reporter asks about gun violence, Shit Hitler responds that someone in the synagogue should have been armed. That, and an obviously insane person should get the death penalty, as if that’s a deterrent. The hits continue as he says “isn’t it a shame that a synagogue should have to be armed” and rambles on about violence over the centuries. “What a shame” — in other words “shit happens.”

    What a ridiculous fucking joke that this amoral moron is president.

  49. 49.

    cain

    @Mnemosyne:

    Reform Jews = Methodists, with some verging on Unitarian

    I thought the methodists were really super strict? Perhaps there are versions that are?

  50. 50.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodingers_cat:

    One of my Jewish friends at work has cousins who are MAGAts. The most vociferous one is a cousin-in-law who immigrated from Israel and expects Trump to wipe out Muslims first. She seems to have miscalculated how deep anti-Semitism still runs on the American right.

  52. 52.

    Brachiator

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’d guess MAGAts are trying to say this was a leftist attack on politically conservative Jews.

    On top of tragedy, this indicates the incredible ignorance and stupidity of right wing nut jobs. As others have noted Conservative Judaism has nothing to do with political ideology.

    I think I will just go back to bed. This is too much.

  54. 54.

    Mnemosyne

    @cain:

    Not anymore — they’re pretty mainstream liberal now, though of course there are always some sects that are more conservative than others.

  55. 55.

    germy

    @Kay:

    There was public, mainstream discussion about how conservatism had turned into a giant grift and they were all getting rich on extremism. Then Trump came along and it all got much, much worse.

    It’s profitable. It won’t change until it isn’t.

    I wonder if Megyn Kelly losing her sinecure will prove to some of them it just isn’t profitable anymore. Maybe if more people lose their jobs.

  56. 56.

    opiejeanne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I had a Catholic neighbor who said she wasn’t a Christian, she was Catholic, and I had to explain it to her (!) but she was kind of an idiot on other subjects. I could tell stories.
    We are Methodists and one day in the 1990s when my middle kid came home and started a sentence with “I know we’re not Christians…” I hit the ceiling. She was in 3rd grade and a girl who attended a 4-square church had told her and a Catholic friend that they weren’t Christians and that she was, and these two kids hadn’t pushed back. I pushed back and took it up with the mother of this darling child. Not the first time we were told we were “only Methodists and not really Christians”. Burns me up, this stupidity about Catholics not being recognized as Christians.

  58. 58.

    cain

    @patrick II:

    Chris Hayes started his show last night by calling Cesar Sayoc the “Magabomber”. I hope this guy gets called the Pittsburgh Magashooter. I want Maga to be as ubiquitous for right wing violence as “gate” is for other types of scandal

    Apparently, the guy isn’t a Trumper. He’s just your regular hateful anti-Semitic. That said, I believe that even though he hates Trump, he definitely has drunk the kool-aid that we live in an environment that it’s okay to do go after the “other” and the President has enabled that mentality with his rhetoric.

  59. 59.

    Mai Naem mobile

    I am sure Stephen Miller thinks hes one of the special Jews that this anti semite wouldn’t want dead. Same goes for Mnuchin , Gary Cohen.and Crown Prince Jared.

  60. 60.

    opiejeanne

    @cain: Congregations vary but no, the Methodist church is not considered a conservative group. They’re considered liberal.

  61. 61.

    trollhattan

    @cain:
    It would seem that with Lewandowski, Miller, the tiki torchers and others the future is bright for youngish grifting Nazis.

  62. 62.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The only person I know in IRL who is a T voter is Jewish. He assured my husband that really we had nothing to worry to about, because T was moderate unlike that war mongering bitch.

    The quick parade of violence I’m sure will assure him that his position is true. /s

  67. 67.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @cain: Good thing I am a non-temple or church going heathen then. Sometimes the Dems in my town meet at the church which is over 300 plus years old.

    We are going to Pittsburgh tomorrow. My dad is turning 80 next week and he’s attending a professional conference and htey have something in his honor. But in addition to that, we’re doing some pooja for my dad at the big Hindu temple there. I’m a it nervous now because places of worship are being targeted.

  71. 71.

    Schlemazel

    Jay-Zeus Farking Crisp. I was actually feeling very moved reading Washington’s statement, which I had never seen before. Then I read the rest including update & I am so angry I can’t see

  72. 72.

    trollhattan

    @germy:
    Megyn walks away with a huge basket of cash (IIUC) and lots of free time, lacking only a camera to park herself in front of. She’ll have that again, too.

  73. 73.

    cain

    @Mnemosyne:

    Not anymore — they’re pretty mainstream liberal now, though of course there are always some sects that are more conservative than others.

    Oh! Interesting..

    @Mattf – ahh.. thanks

  74. 74.

    Ohio Mom

    @Mnemosyne: I had to chuckle at your list. When explaining my own mixed marriage to non-Jews — I hasten to add Ohio Dad is, like me, Jewish — I say that if we were Catholic, Ohio Dad would be at the one church in town still doing the Mass in Latin, and I would be hanging with the lefty nuns.

  75. 75.

    D58826

    The two phrases I would like to see retired from public discourse are ‘thoughts and prayers’ and ‘we are not this kind of people’. This is exactly the kind of people we are. In some places it is harder to register to vote that to buy an AR-15.

    POTUS just said that maybe we need armed guards at houses of worship. Great idea turn Sat/Sun services into a free fire zone.

  76. 76.

    Mnemosyne

    @Dev Null:

    One of the US Holocaust museums did an exhibition about it. Apparently the evidence is not definitive, but the Nazis certainly made admiring comments about Jim Crow and how great a job Americans were doing at keeping their üntermenschen down.

  78. 78.

    Ruckus

    @opiejeanne:
    How can there be more than one true religion?
    I’m only half kidding here, I’d bet a lot of people think that theirs is the only true religion and everyone else is kidding themselves. I’d bet this because I’ve seen many people over the decades that effectively state that.

  80. 80.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ohio Mom:

    I grew up in a Chicago suburb where we were the only gentiles on our block, so I still remember a lot of details about Judaism, including a decent amount of Yiddish (though only words and phrases, I can’t actually speak it).

  82. 82.

    Dev Null

    @Mai Naem mobile: I seem to recall that that was true of the German Jewish elite pre-Nazi era… along the lines of “good Jews” and “bad Jews”.

    Pretty sure being “good Jews” didn’t save them once Hitler took power.

  85. 85.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Of course, the President couldn’t help himself and had to have a Q&A. He’s now blamed the synagogue for this because he says “the temple didn’t have an armed guard inside”.

    Daniel Dale @ ddale8
    Three armed Pittsburgh police officers were shot, the authorities say.

    President T. V. Fuddlehead watches Television, and on Television, Good Guys With A Gun never miss, and never get hit, whether it’s Matt Dillon or Clint Eastwood.

  87. 87.

    efgoldman

    MAGAs got no mirrors.
    What’s the old Stones song (well they’re all old): “Thick as a brick?”
    I’ve never thought that way in my life, but it mght be time to join with Tangu and go hunting.

  88. 88.

    Luthe

    @opiejeanne: I really, really don’t understand the “Catholics aren’t Christian” thing, since Catholics are OG Christians and everyone else is a bunch of splitters.

  89. 89.

    Ken Shabby

    @Adam L Silverman:

    We have been here before. We have come through it stronger. We are in a luke warm, irregular civil war. Mourn the dead, prepare for the next skirmish. The 3 meter target are the mid-terms. The 10 meter target is how the President’s supporters respond to the mid-terms. Win or lose, they will not respond well.

    This. All day, every day until it’s finished.

    I don’t know how I feel about all of this except quiet Anger and sorrow for all of you hurt by this.

  91. 91.

    Bill Arnold

    @Kay:

    It’s profitable. It won’t change until it isn’t.

    (Just thinking out loud here.)
    It’s profitable for media companies because, to be blunt, right-wing audiences in the US are easily manipulated by marketing, or gullible, to be less charitable. [0]
    Hit/defang the advertising that focuses on this population, somehow, and the problem is reduced. Ultimately this means helping that subpopulation be more self-aware, less gullible, and less easily-manipulated. If there’s collateral damage to wu and junky political thinking on the left, great.
    [0] e.g. Who falls for fake news? The roles of bullshit receptivity, overclaiming, familiarity, and analytic thinking(2017) and some of the papers that cite it.

  92. 92.

    cain

    @Adam L Silverman:

    When will that moron understand that people need to be trained to deal with that kind of stuff? It isn’t sufficient to carry a weapon, you have to learn how to deal with the various situations. That’s why you can’t arm kids or teachers or anything else because it’s a complete different thought process. Argh!

  93. 93.

    germy

    @trollhattan:

    Megyn walks away with a huge basket of cash (IIUC) and lots of free time, lacking only a camera to park herself in front of. She’ll have that again, too.

    Yes, she got all the money. But I’m not so sure about finding a new camera. Fox says they don’t want her back (maybe they’re still miffed at those roger ailes accusations) and CBS, ABC might be too cowardly to give her a home.

    Maybe she can host a show on Me-TV, right after Svengoolie?

  95. 95.

    Adam L Silverman

    And here’s the social learning link back to the President’s rhetoric:

  96. 96.

    Ruckus

    @D58826:

    Great idea turn Sat/Sun services into a free fire zone.

    I know you are snarking here but really haven’t the terrorists been doing that a long time ago? This morning is not the first house of worship that has been shot up, not by any measure. This has been going on for decades at the least. It’s either the religion, today, or the people in the church, any number of black churches….. The common theme here is, if you have an irrational fear or hate for something, kill it, preferably with a gun.

  98. 98.

    cain

    @Luthe:

    @opiejeanne: I really, really don’t understand the “Catholics aren’t Christian” thing, since Catholics are OG Christians and everyone else is a bunch of splitters.

    I know, right? Catholics were the first Christians. I never understood that rhetoric.

  101. 101.

    cain

    @germy:

    Maybe she can host a show on Me-TV, right after Svengoolie?

    There is always Breitbart, but I’m not sure they can afford her.

  102. 102.

    rikyrah

    My Friend in Georgia, who is Early Voting, just got back to me.

    THERE ARE ONLY 10 MACHINES IN THE PLACE.

    10?

    ARE YOU PHUCKING KIDDING ME?

    When I tell you that there are at least 50 in the place where I intend to vote….

    this shyt burns me up!!

  103. 103.

    Ken Shabby

    @Dev Null:

    Pretty sure being “good Jews” didn’t save them once Hitler took power.

    Saved their art. That outlived them. That’s it. But, for Nazis, it was about the value in gold, not soul.

  104. 104.

    MomSense

    My friend’s relatives are elderly. They don’t have cell phones and they don’t use Facebook. I wish I were there with her because she is distraught.

  105. 105.

    Roger Moore

    @cain:

    So, it seems all places of worship are targets.

    Except, of course, for white Evangelical mega-churches. I haven’t heard about them being targeted. I wonder why..

  106. 106.

    cain

    @rikyrah:
    They are trying really goddam hard to stop the vote. We need to like get all that information distributed and get a couple computer scientists to come up with an optimum algorithm to make ten machines work for a district. Fuck these guys.

  108. 108.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Ruckus: Brings to mind the old joke:

    Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

    He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

    He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

    Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

  109. 109.

    Dev Null

    @Beatrice Blacklow: What, he didn’t complain that this shooting will distract from the important news – to wit, the immigrant caravan! – and hinder GOP gathering momentum?!?

    I’m shocked. SHOCKED!

    Round up the usual suspects!

  110. 110.

    Ruckus

    @cain:

    When will that moron understand that people need to be trained to deal with that kind of stuff?

    About the same time the moron understands his fucking hate for everyone that doesn’t lick his shoes. IOW the first of never.

  118. 118.

    Schlemazel

    1488
    14 Words: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”
    88: stands for “Heil Hitler” (H the 8th letter of the alphabet)

  122. 122.

    D58826

    @cain: IIRC there was a guy with a concealed carry permit in the crowd. He drew his gun and aimed at what he took to be the shooter. Fortunately he did not fire because the person was helping Giffords and was not the shooter.

    There was an incident In NY where a dozen of NY’s finest were involved in an active shooter situation and after emptying their guns not a single shot had hit the shooter.

  123. 123.

    efgoldman

    @cain:

    When will that moron understand ….

    Pretty much never. Requires actual actual thought and and common sense, of which he he bereft.

    You still guarding temples your mom’s way?

  124. 124.

    Aleta

    @Kay: It’s profitable. It won’t change until it isn’t.

    Case in point, the cbn network. There have been stories reporting the huge $ flow and their mutual support with the admin. Simple googling just now only came up with page after page of their own headlines (which are indication enough imo).

    (The Tr-supporting evangelicals also use the network to attack the ones who criticize the admin.’s actions. –like during the critical period of opposition to the tax plan.).

    Prosperity doctrine lines up with the promises and scams fronted by Pence/Trump; big money is being pumped to the businesses of fake christians, with promise of more.

  127. 127.

    Schlemazel

    @Dev Null:
    There were Jews in the SA (brownshirts) they did not survive the night of the long knives. Some Jewish industrialists supported the Nazi Party early on because they thought it would protect them from the greater threat (in their eyes) of communism. They were part of the crowd that thought they could control the party once it was in power. Didn’t work for them either

  128. 128.

    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho

    @A Ghost To Most: I’m out of evens to can’t. I think many people will see that asshole’s victim blaming as a signal to go for it.

    Happy Saturday fellow jackals. I’ll be scarce both because I’m busy with work and also, too, I’m afraid that reading more about this might be one too many things for my broken brain to handle.

    On the upside, I also plan to win the amazing trophy for most creative entry in the office Halloween Bake Sale to benefit legal services nonprofits like ABLE and VLP Monday. So I need to set up my staging area to create the winning entries, which will be assembled tomorrow.

  130. 130.

    opiejeanne

    @cain: Oh will you just give it a rest with the Boomer hatred? We are not a monolith, and I think a very large number of us on this site are Boomers, as are so many Democrats actively working to overturn Trump’s Congress.
    The shooter today, who is 46, is hardly a Boomer.

  131. 131.

    efgoldman

    @Dev Null:

    to wit, the immigrant caravan! – and hinder GOP gathering momentum?!?

    I’m waiting for the asshole to order INS to fire on them.

  134. 134.

    D58826

    @Gelfling 545: ELCA Lutherans are sometimes referred to as off-broadway Catholics. And Missouri Synod Lutherans are the southern Baptists of the Lutheran chuch

  135. 135.

    Schlemazel

    @Luthe:
    Heretics cannot be real Christians! Since *those people* do not worship the cloud being as I do they are apostate and not true Christians!!

    I grew up Methodist in a very Catholic community and learned this simple truth by being told a thousand times I was bound for hell

    EDIT: @Gin & Tonic: love the joke & that is exactly the reason *those people* are not true Christians

  136. 136.

    Tenar Arha

    @Mnemosyne: @schrodingers_cat:

    Rule of thumb is we’re split politically about GOP 30% & Dems 70%. So, on the one hand I’ve consoled myself that the majority of us, and most of my immediate extended family, including all the women, voted against that %}€|%*£!, on the other hand we got some real morons in our community who’ve forgotten our terrible history. Initially there were Jewish Germans that Goebels didn’t attack directly, calling them “good Jews,” but eventually all were forced to flee or eliminated in the camps.

    ETA grammar typos

  137. 137.

    Ruckus

    @rikyrah:
    This has been going on for a while. Told this here before. 2004 in a suburb of Columbus OH, Ken Blackwell cut in half the number of machines and added precincts to the voting location (a church BTW). Took me 4 hrs to vote. Got there about 1/2 hr after the polls opened. Some stood in line for a bit and left, of course they had to get to work. This was a left leaning area, but mostly white. You wouldn’t expect conservative bigots to do better for black areas would you? Especially as it works to limit the opposition voting.

  138. 138.

    germy

    @cain:

    They are rich on Boomer fear. The generation that tends to believe what they watch and hear on TV/Radio.

    Unlike the proud boys and tiki marchers and 4chaners and gamergate boys…

    “once all the boomers die out, things will be fine with this new generation…”

  139. 139.

    Ohio Mom

    The HIAS (Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society) got whatever remained of my grandmother’s family after the Holocaust (a handful of cousins) out of the refugee camps and into my grandmother’s arms in The Bronx.

    When the older generation in my family referred to HIAS, there was a tone of reverence in their voices. They were forever grateful.

  141. 141.

    opiejeanne

    @Ruckus: We’ve had it said to our faces several times when we were still regular attendees, as we were being invited to join The One True Religion, whatever the flavor was that week. The one that really stuck with me over the years included an offer to sell Amway for the couple doing the inviting.
    We still laugh about it. Clyde worked for my husband because no other manager could stand him he was so obnoxious at work about his religion. He bitched constantly that he didn’t have a higher position in the city because HE had a Masters in Civil Engineering and had left a perfectly good job with the Feds where he had some high-ish number, G-12? G-14?, and was pissed that this move hadn’t netted him a bunch more money.

  146. 146.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @opiejeanne: …and there are a whole lot of old folk that aren’t Boomers. I remember back in 2010, someone at another place talking about all the over 65 crowd supporting Republicans and blaming Boomers(hint: no Boomers were 65+ in 2010).

  147. 147.

    opiejeanne

    @Luthe: I know, right? When I had to explain it to a Catholic I thought that was near the bottom of stupidity spread by some evangelicals. I was wrong.

  149. 149.

    Another Scott

    @opiejeanne: There was someone I knew online on another forum who was a member of some “Christian” church that basically (apparently) tried to be their own denomination – without any descriptive adjectives. Anyone who wasn’t a member of her brand of church wasn’t a “Christian” to hear her tell it. The first time she brought it up, several of us wondered WTF she was talking about. ;-)

    It’s not just an anti-Catholic thing.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  150. 150.

    Schlemazel

    @germy:
    I appreciated @opiejeanne: response but yours deserves to be bronzed and saved for all eternity.

    This shit is not owned by any one generation and we can all share in the shame

  151. 151.

    banditqueen

    @Mnemosyne: And the shootings at the Black church were averted because the church had the doors locked at all times. In today’s response, the *Resident stated:

    “If they had protection inside the results would have been far better. This is a dispute that will always exist I suspect. But if they had some kind of a protection inside the temple maybe it could have been a very much different situation. They didn’t, and he was able to do things that unfortunately he shouldn’t have been able to do.”

    So much wrong with this, but his “results” include a few dead people “on both sides” in the shootout. And the “dispute that will always exist”–so hate and guns are things we just have to deal with. He just can’t condemn violence–he wants it and encourages it.

  152. 152.

    Dev Null

    @Ken Shabby: Indeed.

    I guess I was making the point that Prince Jared might have learned from the historical experience that helping to enable antiSemites is problematic even for elites.

    But, as Adam says, Jared is a moron.

    Krugman made the point a few years ago (in re Austerian economics and the Great Depression) that cultural learning / traumas endure no longer than two generations, three at the outside.

    “I’m old enough to remember when being called a Nazi was a mortal insult.”

  154. 154.

    Schlemazel

    @efgoldman:
    When i was logging 100k air miles a year I would usually order the kosher meal on flight simply because I knew the smaller number meant a little more care in prep. Never thought of that for stretches in the hospital, I might next time :)

  155. 155.

    hedgehog the occasional commenter

    @efgoldman: Hi efg! Glad to see you here.
    The mr. and I have voted (mail ballots received by the county). Writing postcards for Abigail Spanberger, then will request addresses for Heidi Heitkamp. I keep veering between optimistic, terrified, sick and furious. Swear to Dog next time I see the one Orange Outrage voter I know in my circle I’ll kick him in the fucking nuts.

  158. 158.

    Ruckus

    @opiejeanne:
    If it were a perfectly good job with higher pay, why did he leave? Because everyone else thought he was an ass maybe?
    I’ve left a perfectly shitty job with mediocre pay and a drunk for a boss, but never a great job with great pay. Of course the only really great job I had was my last business and there I had to pay to work so I may be a bad example. I now have a good job, with a pretty good boss, with decent pay and I’ll retire from this one.

  159. 159.

    The Dangerman

    I’m OK with more armed guards at places of worship, schools, malls, etc; we should immediately raise taxes on guns and ammo to make it happen. Fine idea, Donald!

    Oh, can we do like an omnibus bill? Tax guns and ammo, make it a requirement to have a security clearance to run for national office, make it a requirement to have to release taxes for the same, and … ah hell, let’s toss in Fairness Doctrine, too (lack of such is spinning up these assholes that send bombs or shoot people).

    There. Solved lots of problems. Now, time for sleep (watched all 18 innings last night).

  162. 162.

    Schlemazel

    Just read that Rep. Matt Gaetz (R FL CD 1), was spreading a baseless theory that Soros was giving the immigrant caravan participants money. Trump reposted the video Gaetz posted a few days ago

    I guess we will never really be able to tell what set Bowers off

  165. 165.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @cain: In 40s and 50s all SoBapts just KNEW Methodists were very weak on Real Christianity. Mostly be icause they didn’t believe in ‘once saved always saved’. If you as a kid didn’t quite understand that theological point, you sure understood that the Methodists drank and went to dances!!

  167. 167.

    Ruckus

    @opiejeanne:
    As you know, I’m also an early boomer. I agree with you on the boomer stick. But. And it’s a big, firm, round but, there are a lot of boomers who Cain is right about, the IGMFY. I’d bet you know some, I do. Every last one of them is a hard worker, who got there on the sweat of their brow. Even the ones with a public service job in CA, who make/made far more per year than I ever did and have a pretty good pension plan. I know of one couple whose retirement income will be about $80,000/year and they complain that they don’t know how they’ll manage because both are public sector employees and together make about $150,000/year. How will the poor dears get along?

  169. 169.

    MomSense

    @efgoldman:

    We’ve all missed you so much ef to the g.

    Send some good thoughts to my friend Maya. This synagogue is her Home congregation. She has elderly family who attend faithfully.

  170. 170.

    J R in WV

    @Mnemosyne:

    Orthodox Jews = Catholics
    Conservative Jews = Episcopalians
    Reform Jews = Methodists, with some verging on Unitarian

    Hillary Clinton is, I believe, a lifelong Methodist. So they are pretty liberal. Episcopalians are also fairly liberal, esp. compared to Lutherans and Southern Baptists. American Baptists are fairly liberal also too.

  171. 171.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Dev Null:
    There are other American-Nazi Germany links as well. Lebensraum was inspired partly by Manifest Destiny

  172. 172.

    Schlemazel

    @Ladyraxterinok:
    OH GOSH! Out here on the tundra my Methodist forbearers didn’t drink coffee, play cards or go to movies!! It was a big deal when my great aunts found a ‘Wist” deck of cards. They were numbered 1-13, no face cards. They decided that the absence of face cards made playing wist OK.

    When prohibition ended Theo Hamm offered my grandfather the distribution rights (he had 7 sons & 2 trucks so it would have worked). Grandma said ABSOLUTELY NOT!

  174. 174.

    Dev Null

    @Schlemazel: Getting deeper into the historical weeds than I’m prepared to go with confidence, but AFAIK most of the Brown Shirt leadership failed to survive the Night of the Long Knives as well. er, that being the point, IIRC.

    And yeah, “industrialists” … I’ve had knowledgeable peeps insist to me that Hitler won the elections that brought him to power. He didn’t. The business community’s party (led by von Papen IIRC) negotiated a power-sharing arrangement with the Nazis, thinking they could control Hitler.

    Seems to me that this is an historical pattern dating back at least to the Inquisition (and possibly much further back) … the (wealthy) Jewish elite funding Christian or secular rulers … and eventually being persecuted when those rulers found the repudiation of those loans to be convenient.

    Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong.

    And of course Hitler was sui generis.

  176. 176.

    germy

    From The Sydney Morning Herald:

    The first hearing in Julian Assange’s lawsuit against Ecuador’s Foreign Affairs Ministry was suspended as the WikiLeaks founder was unable to understand his translator, and the judge called for a replacement fluent in “Australian.”

    Speaking from Ecuador’s Embassy in London via Skype, Assange said the court-appointed translation service was “not good enough.” Judge Karina Martinez said that it was indispensable that Assange testify, and said the court had erred by appointing a translator who only spoke English, apparently under the impression that Australian dialect is unintelligible to other anglophones.

  177. 177.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Tenar Arha: IIRC der dritte Reich’s first iteration of anti-Semitic legislation (largely) exempted from its provisions Jews who had served honorably in the Great War. (During that minor dustup, Gefreite Hitler’s Jewish commanding officer had put him in for an Eisenkreutz. Coinkydink? I know nussing…)

    Anyway, that didn’t last long.

  178. 178.

    Schlemazel

    “Well, I think I’ve been toned down, if you want to know the truth. I could really tone it up. Because, as you know, the media has been extremely unfair to me and to the Republican Party, I think the media has been very, very unfair. In terms of the Republican Party. And the way it’s been covered. And they understand that.”

    I really cannot take any more of this

  179. 179.

    Dev Null

    @efgoldman: Didn’t Nielsen (Sec DHS) say “we’re not planning to shoot them, not right now, anyway”?

    (Or perhaps that’s your point; I haven’t been following comments lately.)

    Surprised she didn’t kick off a serious firestorm. That’s “crimes against humanity” territory.

  181. 181.

    Schlemazel

    @Dev Null:
    You have it right but there were gay men & Jews among that leadership. The head of the SA was gay and that was the excuse needed to eliminate him. Mostly it was done to passifie the army who was very worried about the SA and to remove them as a threat to Hitler’s consolidation of control

  182. 182.

    Gin & Tonic

    @germy:

    under the impression that Australian dialect is unintelligible to other anglophones.

    You ever been to Oz?

  183. 183.

    Kristine

    @Luthe: I attended Catholic high school, and one of my non-Catholic classmates called we Catholics “idol worshippers” because of the statuary in the church. No, they don’t believe Catholics are Christians.

  184. 184.

    Ruckus

    @efgoldman:

    My late brother in law, wasn’t prejudiced, he hated everybody

    Equally I hope.
    Glad to see you here. You may have noticed that you were missed.

  186. 186.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @Ruckus: When I was in HS in the 50s, our OK SoBapt church had a series of pamphlets addressed to ‘Our Methodist Friends’, ‘Our Presbyterian Friends’, etc, explaining so very politely just where they got christianity wrong and how becoming aSoBapt would wipe out their mistakes.

    Oh how I wish I had collected and saved them all!

  187. 187.

    Another Scott

    @efgoldman: Hehe. :-) It is indeed very good to see you back.

    A joke I heard elsewhere that might help lighten the mood (at least I hope so!!):

    A Chinese man was having a beer at the bar of a drinking establishment when he was whacked upside the head, and found himself on the floor.

    Getting to his feet he asked the guy who hit him “Why did you hit me?”.

    “That was for Pearl Harbor” said the assailant.

    “That was done by Japanese! I’m CHINESE!”

    “Chinese, Japanese. Same thing!” said the attacker, “Hey Joe, I’ll have the usual”

    “OK, Mr. Goldberg” said the bartender

    WHOMP!

    And Mr. Goldberg found HIMSELF on the floor.

    When he got up, he asked the Chinese man “Why?”

    “That was for the Titanic!”

    “The Titanic was sunk by an iceberg!”

    “Iceberg, Goldberg. Same thing!”

    Racism is so very stupid…

    We have to keep working to make things better, and that means winning as many seats as possible on Tuesday November 6.

    9 days to go!!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  188. 188.

    Robert Sneddon

    @Luthe: The original followers of Christ, the Messiah were Jewish sectarians unbeloved by the local Jewish community of their time. The Catholic Church we know today, as established at Nicea was dead set against Monophysitism and regarded their Deity as a composite — the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Christians look over their shoulder fearfully at the Father but worship the Son unreservedly. The Holy Ghost is, well, complicated and doesn’t have many followers by itself.

    It’s a reason the Bible is in two sections, basically, like an old Ace Double — War God of Israel is much into smiting and genocide with a side-order of basic hygiene, inheritance and family life rules and an enjoinder to treat your slaves decently once you’ve conquered a nation and killed all the males. The Thing with Three Souls is the hippy-dippy followup, all peace and love and be nice to each other (with a side-order of End Times psychedelic mushroom dreams).

  190. 190.

    Schlemazel

    @Ruckus:
    Oh no! It was from the land of sky blue waters (sky blue wa-aaa-ters) Hamm’s the beer refreshing, Hamm’s the beer refreshing, Hammmmmmm’s.

    I am too young to know if it was ever good but in the late 60s they started supplementing their grain bill with corn and it was piss. Of course Miller & Bud went with rice, tasted like piss but had the money to convince a large number of consumers that metallic piss tastes great and is less filling.

  192. 192.

    efgoldman

    @Dev Null:

    Surprised she didn’t kick off a serious firestorm. That’s “crimes against humanity” territory.

    her ear is tinnest.
    Point is, theoretically,cannot use military

  194. 194.

    mad citizen

    One small fact to correct in the post and I noticed Trump said it 3-4 times (I was reading it from the treadmill at my gym), It’s not the Future Farmers of America, it is the National FFA Organization. I only know this because they’ve been here in my city several times in recent years–next door to my workplace. Fortunately I was traveling this week so missed the 50,000 blue jackets. It and GenCon are the largest conventions in Indianapolis. Unfortunately, it means the terrorist-leader is in my city, about 25 miles from where I’m typing, right now or in a few minutes.

    Ironically, the FFA is all about service, etc. I just sent them a tweet a few minutes ago. They invite the president every year, but trump is the first to attend in a long time, like 20 years.

    Anyway, from wikipedia: “In 1928, it became a nationwide organization known as Future Farmers of America. In 1988 the name was changed to the National FFA Organization, now commonly referred to as FFA, to recognize that the organization is for those with diverse interests in the food, fiber and natural resource industries, encompassing science, business and technology in addition to production agriculture.[10] Today FFA is among the largest youth organization in the United States, with 669,989 members in 8,630 chapters[11] throughout all 50 states, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. FFA is the largest of the career and technical student organizations in U.S. schools.”

  195. 195.

    Ruckus

    @Schlemazel:
    Do remember that shitgibbon thinks of himself as the perfect human. And because he’s the perfect human, in that tiny, broken excuse of a brain of his, all his followers are perfect as well. Doesn’t matter what they do, who they kill, they are perfect. And anyone who thinks less of hisself than he’s perfect deserves whatever they get.
    We don’t think he’s perfect. He’s the anti-perfect actually. It’s exact opposite. The worst human possible. Which is why the other worst humans like him.

  196. 196.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Dev Null: Or Jar-Jar Kush simply trusts that 21st-century anti-Semitism will revert to its kinder, gentler, turn-of-the-20th c. Karl Lueger incarnation, who was elected Mayor of Vienna 5 times before Franz Josef allowed him to assume the post**. “Asked to explain the fact that many of his friends were Jews, Lueger famously replied, ‘I decide who is a Jew.’ ”

    ———
    ** A flophouse denizen & picture-postcard painter who lived in Wien toward the end of der schoene Karl‘s reign (& life) most assuredly took notes.

  197. 197.

    Aleta

    Have deleted a couple of times a comment I was writing about extremist groups and these two men, and NWO; so I’ll go with this:

    I’ve Pet That Dog. @IvePetThatDog
    I am a 10 year old boy who likes petting dogs. These are pictures of dogs I’ve pet. Account supervised by Mom.
    https://twitter.com/IvePetThatDog

    Via Imani Gandy’s account.

    The most recent dogs are in costume.

  198. 198.

    cain

    @opiejeanne:

    @cain: Oh will you just give it a rest with the Boomer hatred? We are not a monolith, and I think a very large number of us on this site are Boomers, as are so many Democrats actively working to overturn Trump’s Congress.
    The shooter today, who is 46, is hardly a Boomer.

    You misunderstand me. I don’t have a problem with boomers. I’m just telling you primarily who the target of the grift is. They are the largest demographic. Considering I’m near the border of Gen X and Boomers, I would be sort of attacking myself. :-)

  200. 200.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @cain: SoBapt take–yes Catholics original christians, but they quickly went wrong. As a good SoBapt kid I kmew it was called the ‘Dark Ages’ because the Pope ruled–and there were no good, godly baptists around.

    I really freaked out when I got to college and discovered how little info I had been taught in church about the history of christianity, eg nothing about the Desert Fathers, the early Church Fathers. And had to realize how strong a scholarly tradition, heritage the Roman Catholic church has.

    Even in HS I had realized how non-intellectual the SoBapt history was/is.

  201. 201.

    Ruckus

    @Schlemazel:
    In high school, a very, fucking, long time ago, a fellow student had Miller Beer applied to the side of his car in gold leaf. Took up the entire side of his 55 Chevy wagon. The school suspended him and told him he had to remove it. His parents sued on 1st amendment grounds and won. I always thought that if you were going to do something like that, shouldn’t you at least have better taste in beer? I also thought that all these watered down, shitty beers were because the brewers thought that Americans have no taste. They might have been on to something.

  202. 202.

    debbie

    He appears to be inherently and innately transactional. However, his inherent racism, anti-Semitism, and xenophobia, whether rooted in his transactional nature or something else,

    I haven’t read all the comments yet, and I apologize if this has already been said, but what Trump is rooted in is a life-long sense of grievance. That he hasn’t and isn’t being appreciated for his excellent self. Call it narcissism or something else, but know he will never think he has anything to apologize for. It is us, the small and unimportant, who need to apologize to Trump for not thinking he is as excellent as he is.

  203. 203.

    Cacti

    We all knew something like this was coming.

    The time for seeking comity or common ground is long past.

    The other side is a violent fascist movement, with no fundamental sense of decency. It’s time to start calling them terrorists, and make no apology for it. Both sides don’t do it.

  204. 204.

    debbie

    Adam, any chance the ADL will condemn Trump and Trump supporters? They didn’t hesitate after Charlottesville.

  205. 205.

    Aleta

    @Aleta: Btw (if you scroll down below the costumed dogs) his reporting on each dog is wonderful, as is his face and the way his good spirit shines through.

  207. 207.

    Mike J

    checking a suspicious package to ensure it isn’t an improvised explosive device.

    Can we please stop using this nonsensical phrase? Bombs are very, very rarely improvised. One trip to Lowes and it’s not improv anymore. IED is just a way to differentiate mass market murder tools that a government might buy from murder tools used by non-governmental actors. And more recently a way to associate the murderer with Islam, even when 3/4ths of the time they’re white supremacists/Republicans.

    “Home-made bomb” would seem to suffice.

  210. 210.

    debbie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    As others have said, Conservative is between Reform and Orthodox. I’ve heard that they describe themselves as welcoming to all, which would put them closer to Reform than other Conservative congregations.

  211. 211.

    Ruckus

    @Ladyraxterinok:
    I spent freshman year at a Catholic technical HS. I’m not Catholic, as were 4 or 5 others, out of about 400 boys. By then I was also a reformed Presbyterian, meaning atheist. But was that year an eye opener and I thought my eyes were already opened. The level of obedience ended the moment the door to the school bus closed. I do believe I learned more swear words on the bus than in the navy. But it did help to confirm to me that any god that created humans could not be followed in good faith.

  213. 213.

    Schlemazel

    Bad news kids. Mr. Bowers is not a Dump supporter. His social media crap notes that he would not support hair furor because he had Jews on his team
    “There is no #MAGA as long as there is a kike infestation.”
    “amazing amount of division on gab today. glas(sic) the overwhelming jew problem has been solved so we can now fight with each other.” In another message, Bowers wrote of Trump, “For the record, I did not vote for him nor have I owned, worn or even touched a maga hat.”

    But there are good people on both sides

    I need to go throw up now

  214. 214.

    debbie

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Two of my Jewish brothers voted for Trump. If I was speaking to them, we would be arguing over whether the nationalism and anti-Semitism has anything to do with them. They, like many others, put tax cuts over human decency. I’m confident they will pay a price some day for this betrayal.

  215. 215.

    Bobby Thomson

    The anti-Semites snd Nazis certainly think Trump is on their side. And they’re right.

  218. 218.

    Dev Null

    @efgoldman: You mean this?

    Or did you have something else in mind?

    “I’m old enough to remember when the only people who cited Posse Comitatus were the ‘black UN helicopter’ contingent.”

    I was surprised to read that Mattis signed off on sending an Army (Marine?) contingent to the border. Assuming I read correctly. (Wiki says that the language of the act doesn’t mention USMC or Navy.)

  219. 219.

    schrodingers_cat

    I have seen the 1965 Immigration and Nationality act and other civil rights legislation portrayed as a Jewish plot. I used to read a blog called Thinking Housewife to know what the fever swamp thinks. Now I just have to open the NYT or watch the Snooze Hour, so I haven’t visited that site since 2016 summer.

  222. 222.

    Dev Null

    @Uncle Cosmo: Didn’t know about Lueger.

    Guessing that Jared, being the entitled git that he is, can’t imagine that he could be dragged down by the forces his father-in-law is inciting.

  223. 223.

    WaterGirl

    @Bobby Thomson:

    The anti-Semites snd Nazis certainly think Trump is on their side. And they’re right.

    I’m not saying Trump is an anti-Semite or a Nazi; I’m saying that the anti-Semites and the Nazis think Trump is an anti-Semite and a Nazi.

    credit to Andrew Gillum for most excellent reply to his vile opponent. I think we should all follow his lead every opportunity we get.

  224. 224.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Ruckus: There’s a joke that was probably past its smell-by date when I was a kid (the same time as you) about the kid who was such a hellraiser that the public school expelled him. In desperation, even though they were completely non-religious, his parents enrolled him in the local parochial (i.e., Catholic) school–

    –where within days he magically morphed into a perfectly behaved student.

    At the end of the semester his still-disbelieving parents asked him what had happened to cause such a drastic change in his demeanor.

    He replied, “When I sat down in class that first day, I looked up to the front of the room & when I saw they had a poor guy hanging from a cross up there, I figured that this place meant business.”

    (& considering the ubiquitous & immortal stories about Sisters Sadistica & paddles the size of something ripped untimely from a sternwheeler, he might just have been right…)

    NB I was razed Catholic but my dad was damned if he was gonna pay extra for church schoolin’ when public school was what he paid taxes for. Instead I attended the Confusion of Catholic Dogma – um, ‘scuse me, “Confraternity of Christian Doctrine”, or CCD – classes on Saturday mornings up through 1st Holy Communion & Confirmation…& quit the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church for good 6 weeks after my goyische Bar Mitzvah.

  226. 226.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    @Schlemazel: Still there those out there who are, like the ones doing robocalls for Ron De Santis in Florida, who got Mic Dropped Bigly by Andrew Gillum the other day. Besides it could’ve been worse that he was a radical Muslim and the Trumpsters would be in total orgasm and Fox would be whacking off all over the place.

  227. 227.

    Steve in the ATL

    @opiejeanne: @Mnemosyne: must be different on the west coast. Round here, Methodists are far more conservative than Episcopalians. They’re like Baptists who aren’t total embarrassments to the human race. Which southern baptists are, in case I was being too subtle.

  228. 228.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @Schlemazel: Some SA leaders wanted to disband the military and replace it with the SA. Even Hitler, who thought he understood military matters better than his generals, knew that was a bad idea.

  229. 229.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Jeet Heer @ HeerJeet
    1. The alleged shooter believed in the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that “the Jews” are working to destroy white America by bringing in immigrants. It’s a cousin of the idea that George Soros is paying for “the Caravan.” Let’s talk about anti-Semitic ideology.

    a thread featuring Kevin McCarthy, House Majority Leader and trump’s choice to succeed Paul Ryan if his “red wave” came to pass

  230. 230.

    Citizen Alan

    @germy:

    More likely we will see more conservative pundits following the Megyn Kelly path to unimaginable wealth. Develop enough of a following to get a job on a mainstream Network, then be overtly racist on national TV so you can get fired with a massive pay off. Seriously, does anyone honestly believe that Megyn Kelly would go on a tear about black face without realizing that should get fired and not see that $60+ million payoff?

  231. 231.

    Citizen Alan

    @opiejeanne:

    Does that include Southern Methodist? Because the ones I’ve dealt with have been slightly more polite than Southern Baptists and also a little bit more open-minded about beer, but are otherwise roughly the same when it comes to politics.

  233. 233.

    Citizen Alan

    @Another Scott:

    All religion is a form of tribalism. All of it. And I say that as someone who believes very strongly in God and who tries to live in a christ-like manner but who will never voluntarily set foot in a Christian church again.

  234. 234.

    Kathleen

    @Mnemosyne: First, sending healing thoughts to your mother in law (I was late to last thread as usual). Second, my local Cincy nooz stated that Louisville Police “are trying to determine” if Kroger shooting a hate crime. Kentucky is a horrible place.

  236. 236.

    Dev Null

    @Schlemazel:

    Bad news kids. Mr. Bowers is not a Dump supporter. His social media crap notes that he would not support hair furor because he had Jews on his team
    “There is no #MAGA as long as there is a kike infestation.”

    Serious question: why does Bowers (not) being a Trumpkin matter?

    No one on the right will admit any taint of responsibility either way.

    Trump would continue cozying up to white nationalists either way.

    I’ll go out on a limb and speculate that there aren’t many Jews who care whether their anti-semitic would-be murderer is a Trumpkin, or is not.

    And politically speaking, it seems to me that anyone – Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist, or whatever – who would react politically to an anti-semite Nazi conspiracy lunatic shooting up a synagogue … is unlikely to care whether the loon is a Trumpkin or instead someone even more of a bigot than Trump.

    Jeet Heer’s tweet thread (link posted by Jim … Literalist above) seems to me to reinforce the point: the GOP has gone all-in on anti-semitism.

    So the shooter thinks Trump isn’t sufficiently anti-semitic. How does that absolve Trump? Or the GOP? And – speaking as a non-Jew – why would the lack of a Trumpist affiliation matter to a Jew?

    Feel free to tell me I’m full of it… I probably am. But I don’t get it.

  237. 237.

    Kathleen

    @Ruckus: I remember how it rained that day throughout Ohio. I heard stories that college students stood in line for hours waiting to vote.

    ETA: That fucking Blackwell. Did you hear that he had a second “secret” family in Columbus in addition to his wife and family in Cincinnati?

  238. 238.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Robert Sneddon: Actually the Ebionim/Ebionites, the congregation led by James the brother of Jesus, were in good standing with the other rabbinical Jewish community (the pharisees) until Akiva declared Bar Kochba the messiah. At which point their lost their protection, fled to Pella, which is now in Syria, where they were eventually all wiped out by Paul’s followers.

  239. 239.

    Dev Null

    @Immanentize:

    I think he is mobilizing National Guard units again…. Slightly more legal, but not fully.

    Seems a bit of a cheat, but IANAL, nor do I know the regulations / laws.

    National Guard units are state units, right?

    And they can be dragooned into national service by the president, as often happens during hurricanes. But I thought that was explicitly for disaster relief roles, not LE roles (the latter being explicitly prohibited by the Posse Comitatus Act, or so I thought).

    And I think governors can call out the National Guard for LE (unless prohibited by state law), because Posse Comitatus doesn’t apply to the states.

    I think.

    But I really dunno the details, so happy to be educated by anyone who is acquainted with the issue.

  240. 240.

    cain

    @germy:

    Unlike the proud boys and tiki marchers and 4chaners and gamergate boys…

    “once all the boomers die out, things will be fine with this new generation…”

    What you say is true. No generation is immune to being propagandized. My answer was in the context of grifting. The older generation have a bigger population and have money. So if you’re talking about a target for grifting boomers are a good target if you’re trying to extract money from them. These grifter uses the same kind of messaging that was used on the greatest generation in the 80s – I’m talking about people like Oral Roberts and Billy Graham etc.

    So I’m not trying to denigrate boomers in general.

  243. 243.

    cain

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    @cain: In 40s and 50s all SoBapts just KNEW Methodists were very weak on Real Christianity. Mostly be icause they didn’t believe in ‘once saved always saved’. If you as a kid didn’t quite understand that theological point, you sure understood that the Methodists drank and went to dances!!

    God save us from the purists. :-)

  245. 245.

    opiejeanne

    @Ruckus: I think he saw the top pay for the position but didn’t like the fact that he wasn’t offered that at signing time. Municipalities never give you the top pay when you’re hired. Also, he was pissed that he hadn’t been promoted above all the rest of the peons because HE had a masters degree. mr opiejeanne does not have one and was Clyde’s boss, which really rankled. Clyde did not move up when there was an opening above him, and if they had given it to him there would have been many lawsuits within the year because of his proselytizing and actual oppression. I think my husband had to shut him down once, very quietly, and he did cut it out for the rest of our time with that city. Other engineers had threatened to fire him, had even gone to HR to talk about it, before Clyde got shunted to my husband’s group. Good old Dave got the problem people and got work out of them, and didn’t yell at them. He also shielded those that his Nazi* boss wanted to fire because they were black, or overweight, or a woman, or Chinese.

    *His boss was a real live Nazi. Had been in the Hitler Youth and was just about to be sent to fight when WWII ended. He pointed to a calendar one day and told my husband that that day, April 20th, would be a national holiday if they had won the war. He sounded disappointed.

  246. 246.

    Kathleen

    @Robert Sneddon: Years and years ago I read a book about the Council of Nice (wish I remembered the title because I thought at the time it was very good). However, the only point I clearly recall is that one of its decrees was to accommodate a ruler (Constantine?). Side note: I was raised a strict Catholic and attended Catholic schools from kindergarten through college (50’s and 60’s) so I was fascinated by learning context in which “dogma” was created.

  248. 248.

    opiejeanne

    @Ladyraxterinok: Methodists went to dances but drinking was not on the agenda. Methodists who drank were not adhering to the rules. No smoking either, but I knew Methodists who did both and were perfectly fine people and we did not hear it preached against from the pulpit.

  249. 249.

    Barbara

    My mother grew up in Squirrel Hill and it’s still one of my favorite neighborhoods. I was there just last weekend and stopped as I always do at a cafe on Forbes Avenue. I don’t know the proportion, but according to my mother many Jews came there as refugees after WWII because there was already a sizable existing Jewish community. I just can’t imagine the horror of this event. And it’s just surreal how these malefactors have seized on the “caravan” and made it a one size fits all trigger to demonize whichever group they hate most. Earlier this week it was full of scary A-rabs. Now it’s a Jewish plot.

  250. 250.

    opiejeanne

    @Schlemazel: I don’t recognize that Methodism. No coffee? Congregations vary to this day but I don’t remember coffee ever being against the rules of Methodism.

    We didn’t drink alcohol in my family, but Dad smoked and those are both against the actual rules. They haven’t leaned on the no smoking rule much since the 1980s.
    We played cards and never heard a word against it, but we were in California, but we didn’t play poker. My sister and I were both scandalized and thrilled when our Presbyterian cousins tried to teach us to play poker. I don’t know what that game really was, but I know now that it wasn’t poker.
    My mother was raised Southern Baptist and her father helped her and her sisters go to dances, over her mother’s objection. That was in Missouri in the 1930s.

  251. 251.

    debbie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    You’re psychic!

    New York, NY, October 27, 2018 … ADL CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt released the following statement in response to the horrific and fatal anti-Semitic attack at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh today.

    Our hearts break for the families of those killed and injured at the Tree of Life Synagogue, and for the entire Jewish community of Pittsburgh. We believe this is the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the history of the United States. We are actively engaged with law enforcement to support their investigation and call on authorities to investigate this as a hate crime.

    It is simply unconscionable for Jews to be targeted during worship on a Sabbath morning, and unthinkable that it would happen in the United States of America in this day and age. Unfortunately, this violence occurs at time when ADL has reported a historic increase in both anti-Semitic incidents and anti-Semitic online harassment. As we mourn those lost and search for answers, ADL will remain steadfast in its mission to fight anti-Semitism wherever and whenever it may occur.

    Wish he’d broadened it out to include the MAGAbomber, but I ask for too much sometimes.

  252. 252.

    MoxieM

    Speaking as a Unitarian Universalist, descended from a great many generations of Unitarians, Universalists or Congregationalists, I am quite certain that none of you knows what Christianity is, or should be. Hah! (kidding). We’re bossy, or we used to be. Hence, the City on a Hill and all that BS. Hence I give you the Rev. Theodore Parker on the Transient and the Permanent In Christianity. Basically: words matter, the rest, doctrines and institutions, fade away).

    I don’t even believe in God, but I appreciate the esthetics of his essence of Calvinism distilled to its most pure form. (Highly controversial, then, and now.)

    If that evil man in Pittsburgh had even followed these simple instructions, he would not have been going around shooting people.

    “To turn away from the disputes of the Catholics and the Protestants, of the Unitarian and the Trinitarian, of Old School and New School, and come to the plain words of Jesus of Nazareth, Christianity is a simple thing; very simple. It is absolute, pure Morality; absolute, pure Religion; the love of man; the love of God acting without let or hindrance. The only creed it lays down is the great truth which springs up spontaneous in the holy heart — there is a God. Its watchword is, be perfect as your Father in Heaven. The only form it demands is a divine life; doing the best thing, in the best way, from the highest motives; perfect obedience to the great law of God.” https://uuwestport.org/readings/the-transient-and-permanent-in-christianity/

    Anyway, I recommend Parker. He was one of the Secret Six who funded John Brown–he put his scant money where his mouth was–and an all around revolutionary thinker. Too bad nobody is talking about him more and more.

  253. 253.

    opiejeanne

    @Steve in the ATL: I think I mentioned that each congregation will be different and some are definitely conservative. In extreme cases they’ve tried to take over the ownership of the local church and its buildings and have been rebuffed in court. The church itself is liberal, the individual churches may or may not be.

  254. 254.

    opiejeanne

    @Citizen Alan: You have to consider where each church is, what the community is like. The one down the road from me in Western Washington is so conservative the preacher sounded terrified to mention anything that Jesus preached. The one in Seattle that I visited was very liberal to the point that some congregants thought spending money on a new stained glass window should have been given to the poor instead.
    And they have a rainbow door on the side facing the main street, to show they are a certain type of congregation that welcomes LGBTQ, can’t remember the name.

  255. 255.

    Duane

    Today, after the shootings, Trumpov calls for increased use of the death penalty. He is sick, incapable of the office, and needs to go. Now.

  258. 258.

    MomSense

    @MoxieM:

    He is one of my great heroes. His grandfather fought in the militia at Lexington and Concord. TP kept his rifle over his desk as a reminder that the Revolution was not won as long as people were enslaved.

    The MLKjr quote about the arc of the moral universe is a riff on a Parker sermon.

    Time to bring back the Boston Vigilance Committee.

    And always keep Top Eye open.

  259. 259.

    sigyn

    @Aleta: A very welcome distraction, with charming little vignettes; “…his poop sparkled for days.”

    Thanks for the link.

  261. 261.

    Miss Bianca

    @Adam L Silverman: Adam, I am so sad and furious right now. I appreciate your ability to stay calm and help us carry on as we try to process the daily horrors. Thank you, so much. That sounds so inadequate, but it’s all i have right now.

  262. 262.

    Dan B

    @opiejeanne: University Temple Methodist sounds like a candidate for uber liberal. Also the Ballard branch was. But I worked with a Methodist Minister from LA who had trouble with the leadership because he was pro gay.

  263. 263.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Schlemazel: It was pointed that Himler did protect certain Jews, which simply proves the racism is all BS in the end and mainly about find excuses to abuse people.

  264. 264.

    Dev Null

    Not generally a fan of Rick Wilson’s political philosophizing, for all that his rants are good fun, but this (written before the Pittsburgh murders) seems right on:

    Trump’s base defines the GOP as a party of ranty Facebook groups, garishly overwrought conspiracy theories (hello, QAnon!), and raging oppositional defiant disorder.

    This is the future of the GOP under Trump; it’s not a party; it’s a backwater sub-Reddit careening from crisis to crisis, chasing an increasingly elaborate set of conspiracies to paper over the raging inconsistencies of the Dear Leader’s message and conduct.

    Cesar Sayoc isn’t just some loner gone wrong. He isn’t merely a one-in-a-million Unabomber with a cabin in the woods, a crazed manifesto, and too much black powder. Sayoc is the future. Donald Trump’s famously loyal base has been radicalized, and while only the tiniest fraction will resort to political violence, neither the president nor the hollow shell of the GOP will do anything to stop it.

    My bolds.

  265. 265.

    Ruckus

    @opiejeanne:

    He sounded disappointed.

    If he was a nazi youth then he would have been disappointed.
    The guy with the masters sounds like he had worked in Human Resources.
    The paper is important, not what you can accomplish. That’s the MBA curse, the paper is important, the results will always be sub par, because the workers don’t have an MBA. We had a gathering last night at the apt building and one of the fellas worked at JPL for 40+ yrs. He got turned down, I think he said twice by HR but the authorizing hiring manager saw his application and hired him. 40 yrs of work wouldn’t have happened because he didn’t have a piece of paper.

  266. 266.

    Dev Null

    @Adam L Silverman:

    We are in a lukewarm, irregular civil war. Mourn the dead, prepare for the next skirmish.

    Adam,

    Does “lukewarm irregular civil war” have a technical / professional meaning?

    I believe I’ve read most of your posts the past 2-3 years, probably not all … and I do not remember a post in which the concept is laid out for the unenlightened. (Then again, I forget a lot …)

    Are there relevant societal exemplars?

  267. 267.

    joel hanes

    @cain:

    Catholics are OG Christians and everyone else is a bunch of splitters

    Judaism is OG Abrahamism, and Christianity a splitter.
    The Ethiopian Copts are OG Christians, and Catholicism a splitter, a creation of the Roman state.
    Eastern Orthodox is the OG Catholicism, and western Roman Catholicism is a splitter, created after the barbarians took Rome.

  269. 269.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Dev Null: Just got in, each of those terms have specific meanings. I’ve just put them together. Civil war refers to the reality that we seem to be living in a time where two very different groups of Americans have two very different and incompatible and irreconcilable visions of what America is, how it should be governed, even who should be an American. And each side is vying for political control over government at the Federal, state, and local levels. Luke warm refers to the fact that this isn’t a cold civil war – it isn’t being fought (for lack of a better term) solely through the normative political process. Members of one side, and their fellow travelers farther out on the extreme, are violently attacking the other side. And the violence is disproportionately on one side of the dispute. Irregular refers to this not being organized by the state or even a specific party (leaving aside things like the travel ban and child separation). This is fortunate.

    I hope that helps.

  271. 271.

    Dev Null

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I hope this helps.

    Thanks, Adam… I’ll have to think about this… your meaning is rather different from what I thought you intended. (Not that I was confident I understood your point, which is why I asked.)

    Rightly or not, I’ve always thought that the term “civil war” implies a “process” that includes a measure of violence; whereas, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that political struggles pursued through normative (non-violent) political processes can nonetheless be called a “civil war” – a “cold” civil war, in your terminology – but I would think this usage stretches the definition of “war” to include, well, almost everything. [1] I base this on your statement:

    … this isn’t a cold civil war – it isn’t being fought (for lack of a better term) solely through the normative political process.

    “Irregular”: got it, thanks.

    Members of one side, and their fellow travelers farther out on the extreme, are violently attacking the other side. And the violence is disproportionately on one side of the dispute.

    … suggests a term like “asymmetric violence”, or would if “asymmetric” weren’t already spoken for. In any event that “asymmetry” doesn’t leap out at me from the phrase “lukewarm irregular civil war”.

    And I’m especially curious about the asymmetry, because symmetric irregular violence can lead to complete political breakdown (and did, in Weimar Germany. Not the only factor, but …)

    As an example of asymmetric violence, how about Jim Crow America? But that was state-sponsored (“regular”, I suppose) violence.

    No particular point here; I’ve been trying to imagine where we’re going, but I don’t know enough history to come up with historical parallels, and your term “lukewarm irregular civil war” was suggestive.

    [1] Clausewitz: “war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means”; Zhou Enlai: “diplomacy is the continuation of war by other means”. I suppose if diplomacy is war, and war is diplomacy, then why not routine political / factional struggles be “war”?

  272. 272.

    MoxieM

    @MomSense: Oh yes– I had his bible on my desk for a while, when I was processing some of his papers, and the aforementioned papers–many letters to Frank Sanborn (a Daguerreotype Boyfriend if ever there was, and another Secret Sixer). The one that blew my sox off was when TP met Ada Lovelace at Babbages’ place, and they all chatted genially about the Difference Engine. Mind. Blown.

  273. 273.

    MomSense

    @MoxieM:

    It’s a fascinating history. My dad has spent a lot of time researching their papers and the archives of churches that were involved.

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