Axios, continuing its chipping away at our republic, has an exclusive from President Trump. He wants to end birthright citizenship and believes he can do it with an executive order. Of course, some of the lawyers I follow on Twitter are saying, birthright citizenship is a part of the Fourteenth Amendment and cannot be nullified by an executive order. But Trump could issue such an order (written by Steven Miller, of course) and set up a confrontation that would go to the now-packed Supreme Court. Anyone want to bet how Brett Kavanaugh would vote find?
Troops to the border to stop a caravan of brown people who are 1000 miles away, and now this. It’s quite clear who Trump thinks make up the Republican base. So if you haven’t voted already, vote straight Democratic. The Republicans are a danger to the country.
If you think this is an extreme position or an opinion, you haven't read enough about the white nationalist movement, Stephen Miller, Bannon, Sessions, etc.
Eliminating birthright citizenship is a central plank in a well-articulated, coherent movement to make America whiter.
2/— Adam Davidson (@adamdavidson) October 30, 2018
(continuing the white power explanation)
– All whites, by nature, would know they only want a white society.
– An outside group–hint, it's the Jews!–is tricking them into going against their nature (white nationalists think they know a lot about core human nature).
4/
— Adam Davidson (@adamdavidson) October 30, 2018
Plus more, but Davidson is clearly so angry that he gets a little incoherent.
Daniel Drezner is a bit more sanguine:
Speaking for myself, it’s because: a) Despite control over key branches of government, Trump has accomplished surprisingly little; and b) There’s an election coming up that suggests Trump will face greater constraints going forward. https://t.co/HvjX0K3c7d
— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) October 30, 2018
There’s a fair bit of media criticism too.
Not exclusive: this is a terrible, inaccurate headline and a credulous article worthy of a government-affiliated propaganda outlet https://t.co/aTfpeG5RyJ
— Anil Kalhan (@kalhan) October 30, 2018
This all has shoved Trump’s plan to return us to the nuclear fears of the 1980s and his followers’ attempts at murder to the back burner, at least for the few hours until he comes up with something else. But some good news.
The seat now held by vacating Republican Sen. Jeff Flake….. https://t.co/yE3SnmQaLg
— Jim Roberts (@nycjim) October 30, 2018
It’s possible that the open racism will push people toward the Democrats. Get your friends to the polls!
And open thread.
PsiFighter37
7 days to go. I need to make sure my fridge is properly stocked with enough booze…either will be celebrating a lot or plotting how to GTFO.
EBT
Don’t forget that Texas was swapping Beto votes to Cruz. The system is rigged and people should stop taking it.
Soprano2
I started yelling at my radio on the way to work when I heard this! I can’t believe he thinks he can do this, it’s insane! I cannot believe John Roberts would go along with this. To me the Constitution is pretty clear on the issue. They need a constitutional amendment to make this change.
ant
I don’t understand what problem these people have with jews.
Aren’t jews white?
Also, my understanding is that these bigots like to use IQ as their measuring stick with witch to judge various groups of people, and that jews have higher IQ than all the other “white flavors” of people.
I don’t get it.
I suspect for some Republicans, it isn’t so much skin color, but how groups vote. They loves them some Cubans for example. On the other hand, Republicans pushed Muslims out during the W years.
I fear for our country. 10 years from now, all the states will divides along lines like Mississippi does now.
Citizen_X
OT: Is the site borked for anyone else? Tweets are not loading, just the text. I have the problem across different platforms.
Keith P.
It’s become quite obvious over the past few weeks that someone in the WH told Trump that he can use “national security” to override any law or regulation, so that’s what he’s expecting to do – declare national emergencies to unilaterally act where the law says he cannot.
westyny
Actually, I think the Browns are still about 2000 miles away. Walking, you know. Our troops should have time to set up their defensive lines. /s
Chris
Voted last weekend, about the only thing I can do to feel better these days. Thank God for Maryland, not only for early voting but for being a state where I’m still reasonably sure my vote will actually be counted.
Unfortunately, I’d say white supremacists actually get a lot right about human nature, just not in that sense. And what they get right doesn’t speak too well if the human race.
Matt McIrvin
@ant: Jews have always been at most conditionally white in the annals of American bigotry. To Nazi fucks, they’re not at all.
A Ghost To Most
@ant:
Facts don’t matter to fascists.
Maybe it’s just me (likely), but I’m sad at the number of people who state their intent to flee if shit gets rough. Grow a set of ovaries.
Matt McIrvin
@A Ghost To Most: I don’t hold it against anyone who would be in danger for their lives. Beyond some point all you can really do is save yourself and your family. I do think that most of the people with the greatest ability to get out are in the least danger.
Haroldo
@Citizen_X: Yerp – borked here.
Matt McIrvin
@Chris: One important thing to remember is that the tide of public opinion is actually against them, for what it’s worth. In particular, pro-immigration sentiment is actually higher now than it’s ever been probably in the entirety of US history, probably in part as a direct reaction to Trump, and rapidly increasing. The right is radicalizing on this but they don’t have the majority.
JohnPM
In light of the terrorist attack in Pittsburgh, I want to ask my boss (who is Jewish) how he feels about the tax cuts now.
Cheryl Rofer
Folks, if you’re having trouble with the site, email Alain at [email protected].
SFAW
@ant:
WTF?
You left out “and Charles Murray and Bill Shockley have proved that blacks have lower IQs.”
I mean, really, what the fuck?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Whether Trump can do this or not doesn’t matter to him, creating a consitutuional crises gets the presses attention away from the voilance he is causing.
SFAW
@Soprano2:
Then I guess you haven’t been paying attention.
Ken Shabby
@Matt McIrvin:
Yes. Hope it’s sustainable. It’s also fundamental and a lot of what we’re discussing in these threads this morning.
cmorenc
@Cheryl Rofer:
Although the language of the 14th Amendment appears so unambiguously clear on its face, there nevertheless is an extreme “original intent” rationale any justices inclined to uphold such a Trump executive order might be tempted to use: that the original intent of the 14A and the “born or naturalized” citizenship language was intended to apply to slaves freed by the Union victory, as well as free blacks who had been effectively treated as non-citizens in southern states. Of course, the “or naturalized” portion of the language might seem problematic to such an extreme interpretation – but if the birthright language is (mis)read to exclude others outside the original context of freed blacks post-civil war – then neither would an e.g. hispanic baby born here of undocumented parents be a “naturalized” citizen.
I’ll bet Kavenaugh would be far more likely to uphold the plain wording of the 14A to apply broadly to anyone provably born within the US (thus purportedly proving what a fair-minded unprejudiced guy he is as a Justice) and save his extremist “original intent” bullshit for cases where his vote benefits large corporations and the ability of states to pass legislation chipping away at the regulatory power of the federal government (which is more likely Kavenaugh’s true passion).
Ken Shabby
@Matt McIrvin:
Per your Nazi remark. Yes.
“Swarthy” is common language as are other “genetic markers” and, among other things, Himmler’s pathetic attempts at constructing mythologies.
Himmler. No chin, no shoulders, no hair, glasses, short, a cute button nose and ate poison rather than face his truth.
Baud
@cmorenc: This is correct.
JMG
Congress under the Republicans has let Trump do what he wanted because he can plausibly threaten their political careers. There’s nothing he can do to any Supreme Court justice, so I doubt they would effectively surrender their own constitutional powers to him. What was the point of court packing if the court becomes less important?
Blue Galangal
@cmorenc: Concur. It’s weird how the birthers have moved the Overton window on this one. They’ve been redefining citizenship for 10 years now: Obama is not a citizen because his FATHER was not a citizen. Period. Paragraph. He will NEVER be a citizen – this executive order is the logical outcome of their worldview.
Chris
@Matt McIrvin:
Which is why they’ve worked their asses off to make sure majorities are unnecessary. This is one example.
Lapassionara
I know it is futile to remind Trump of his oath of office, but I wish journalists would include the salient phrases of the oath whenever discussing his executive orders. He is supposed to “protect and defend the Constitution,” not undermine it.
Ksmiami
Duh can we just blast these guys and let god sort it out.l? Why even allow such traitor filth, such indecent ppl to live in America- send them to Russia since they love oppression and thuggery.
Matt McIrvin
@Soprano2: With one more Justice he won’t need Roberts.
schrodingers_cat
He hasn’t even got his fucking parade in DC, he is not going to be able to change the constitution by giving an interview to the whores with pens at Axios.
dmsilev
@cmorenc: As I understand it, the ‘ban birthright citizenship’ people hang their hat under the “under the jurisdiction of the United States” clause, arguing that “illegals” aren’t under the US’s jurisdiction and hence aren’t covered by the 14th. It’s bullshit of course, even by the standards of conservative legal theories that claimed the ACA was unconstitutional because reasons, but being bullshit is arguably a feature for a demagogue like Trump.
Cheryl Rofer
@cmorenc: I’ve seen a Twitter thread saying that the original intent of the 14th Amendment was clearly that children born in the US, whatever their parents, would be citizens. I’ll post it if I see it again.
Matt McIrvin
@cmorenc: The usual xenophobic fringe argument is that “jurisdiction” in “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” somehow refers not to whether the law can be enforced on that person, but to national loyalties as defined by blood.
The argument is way more popular than the facial absurdity of it would lead one to expect.
Amir Khalid
@Lapassionara:
Trump will protect and defend that part of your Constitution that says the President has absolute power. Even if he has to make it up.
Cheryl Rofer
schrodingers_cat
Bully boy is trying to change the topic because he is afraid of the coming D majorities and does not like to be not being center of attention. I am going to see what elected Rs say. How many even manage the Flake and Sasse like mealy mouthed condemnation.
Chris Johnson
Except don’t use the ‘vote straight Democratic’ button, because it will set the choices to all Dems and then flip the top position to Ted Fucking Cruz.
fml…
Cheryl Rofer
Ah, here it is!
Chyron HR
@ant:
“We wouldn’t have hated them for centuries if they weren’t doing something wrong.”
Matt McIrvin
@Cheryl Rofer: I’m pretty sure the movement’s goal here is overturning Wong Kim Ark. They’ve wanted to do it for a long time.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
One of Trump’s parents wasn’t a US citizen. Just saying
schrodingers_cat
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Was Ivana a citizen when Ivanka and other children were born?
Ken Shabby
@Matt McIrvin:
Ozark H. mentioned this initially. Now, I understand what it and he meant.
And, the counter argument against 14th.
btw, did not also know crashing irony of excluding Native Americans, tho it doesn’t surprise.
Timurid
@westyny:
And they can’t even beat the Steelers, much less the US military…
Ken Shabby
@schrodingers_cat:
“Pull the ladder up after”
Also Chapter One, in the playbook.
“Last guy out, hit the lights – “
Ken Shabby
@Chyron HR:
Because papists weren’t permitted to loan money and charge interest.
CCL
Two quick items: First, and apologies if this has been posted before:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/29/trump-czechoslovakia-communism-spying?CMP=share_btn_tw>Guardian article: Czechoslovakia connection
And second: Anyone have a list of advertisers on FOX? I don’t watch that cesspool…but I can at least stop supporting companies that piggyback off the propaganda.
CCL
Sorry, edit not working to let me fix my end url typo.
germy
p.a.
Jesus fucking christ if we’ve gotten to the point where we are relying on John Taney Roberts to defend the modern Constitution we are well and truly fucked.
Spanky
@Cheryl Rofer: There will be no Next Democratic President, in the Republican cabal’s minds.
JMG
Posting because the comment thread is stuck on my last one. Attention Alain: Don’t worry about it. It’s a problem with my desktop, as this doesn’t happen on my laptop.
germy
@CCL:
Here:
http://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2018/10/will-boycott-of-fox-news-advertisers.html
A complete list, with links to their twitter accounts.
germy
Gin & Tonic
@CCL:
Intourist was “undercover” in about the same way your 1-year-old thinks you’ve disappeared when you cover their eyes.
Elizabelle
@CCL: Kevin Drum of Mother Jones put one up. His post: Should We Boycott Fox News Advertisers?
Gets his information from this site: FoxNewsAdvertisers.com
Haroldo
@CCL:
https://www.foxnewsadvertisers.com/
Johannes
@Soprano2: Shelby County v. Holder says “hi.”
Tenar Arha
@ant: You’ve listed a lot of propositions to argue with in your short post. Selecting one is hard. I will however point out that in the history of the KKK in this country one of the K’s was explicitly for racism, one was for anti-Catholicism, & the last was antisemitic. And as all my reading & even my parents pointed out to me on numerous occasions, once they’re looking for something after racism (which never went away) they’ll come for Jewish people. (Oh, & the usual pointed addendum by my father after that, was that Catholics better watch out since they’re always next. He wasn’t kidding, bc when he grew up that was still true).
germy
Betty Cracker
Cheryl, thank you for putting it in such stark terms — the closing argument absolutely is for white power. They’re hardly bothering to slap fig leaves like “trade” and “globalization” over the dangly bits this time.
I can report good news from my new home in Trump swamp country: the orange shit-stain’s fans hereabouts seem completely uninterested in the midterms. Anecdata, I know, but my guess is GOP internal polling shows something similar, which is why they’re pulling out the hoods and firing up the torches with a week to go.
Immanentize
@Chyron HR:
Crist killers, supposedly. But they actually seem to have forgotten that basis for their hatred of Jews I find that rather peculiar….
Immanentize
@Matt McIrvin:
I mentioned this before, but Thomas’ vote in the Texas confederate license plate case suggests he is no friend of the hard core white supremacists. He wants to dismantle the regulatory state and stop federal intrusions, but the core slavery question still irks him.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker:
I recommend you throw a big house warming party next Monday, get all your Trump neighbors good and drunk. Then tell them to sleep it off for a day or two.
Snarki, child of Loki
“Trump ending ‘birthright citizenship’ where one of the parents is in the US illegally”
So if someone violated visa rules, lied about it on permanent residency and citizenship applications, and had a kid in the US, the kid would be stripped of citizenship?
Let’s try it out on Barron Trump first, just to see how it works.
schrodingers_cat
I am not surprised that T said this. The R party has been moving towards this end state for a while now. I am surprised that anyone is really surprised by this.
I wrote this in 2015, long before T had secured the R party nomination. Ending birthright citizenship has been advocated by “intellectuals” like Reihan Salam and Mark Krikorian.
Is legal immigration next on the GOP hate list.
JPL
@Chyron HR: In the south some still remember the support for the civil rights movement from the Jewish Community.
Redshift
Just saw Corey Stewart’s closing ad in the Virginia senate race, and it is literally “Virginia needs a senator who will strongly support Trump and stop the illegal immigrant invasion.” So yeah. I guess his brief attempt to pretend he isn’t the racist and white nationalist he’s been his entire career wasn’t foolling anyone.
Can’t wait to see that asshole flushed by 20 points next week.
JPL
@Snarki, child of Loki: Michelle Malkin would be on the list of those who are not real americans.
SFAW
@Gin & Tonic:
I considered asking how you know all this stuff, but I decided I didn’t want you to send a wet team my way.
CarolDuhart2
A Constitutional Amendment can only be overturned by another Amendment. We went through this with Prohibition. The Eighteenth Amendment was overturned by the 21st Amendment. The requirement: 2/3 of the House, 2/3 of the Senate, 2/3 of State Legislatures. Not happening anytime soon.
This is why Lincoln needed the 13th Amendment to end slavery. While the Emancipation Proclamation could free slaves used by Confederate owners because their efforts helped enemy efforts, the Proclamation did not make them forever free, nor end the practice in border states.
schrodingers_cat
@SFAW: Discretion is the better part of valor. Good choice.
rikyrah
THIS is who they are.
This is who they’ve always been.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Indeed, sister friend. You see them clearly, without any illusions.
schrodingers_cat
@CarolDuhart2: Thanks for injecting sanity into the heated discussion.
Mary G
WaPo just now: Shooting victim’s family, top officials shun Trump in Pittsburgh: ‘He was blaming the community’:
Excellent headline, FTFNYT should take notes. Evidently Twitler has asked McConnell/Schumer/Ryan/Pelosi to come with him and been told, maybe not in so many words, to fuck right off. I’m sure the PressSec and Kellyanne will bleat about unity, but the loser stink is on him and both sides want no part of it.
Cheryl Rofer
@Betty Cracker: I’m not as good at the snark as you and Anne are. I am good at plain speaking. These people are despicable. Vote them out!
JPL
@Mary G: Trump will probably mention that dems shunned the victims of a mass attack.
Jeffro
@Redshift: I’m so excited at that prospect – and Comstock and Brat losing as well – that I’m kind of unhappy about having to be at work the rest of next week. Will have to just hang in there until the evening of the 10th. (Related: go long on Anheuser-Busch, people! =)
Litlebritdifrnt
As I understand it there are a lot of Russians who travel to the US prior to the birth of their child specifically to give their child the option of US citizenship. Will Vlad be having a quiet word with his puppet in the near future?
Booger
@Jeffro: Re: Brat (see also Gingrich, Armey, et al) Can we get a constitutional amendment prohibiting Community College professors from sitting in Congress?
schrodingers_cat
@Litlebritdifrnt: Many are members of Mara Lago.
CarolDuhart2
@CarolDuhart2: Nor could it clarify the citizenship status of freed slaves, or prevent a future peace agreement from agreeing to re-enslave those slaves who hadn’t run away from the South. The 13th Amendment prevented any such agreement or the re-institution of chattel slavery.
Trump doesn’t realize how unpopular a repeal would be. Remember the reason California turned blue, and many Eastern states are still blue over generations, was the anti-immigrant legislation introduced by Republican legislators. Any real attempt at the 14th repeal would flip so many state legislatures that the entire nation would be California now.
Cheryl from Maryland
@SFAW: He would secretly go along with it, but remember, everything he does is in reference to his “legacy.” I’m not certain he could spin this one into a positive for the history books.
Felanius Kootea
@cmorenc: In addition, I very much doubt that Clarence Thomas would go along with this. The few cases he has sided with the liberal justices on hinge on race, if my memory serves correctly.
Anything he does by executive order can be undone by executive order. In the interim, we can have fun telling Melania that Barron no longer gets to be a citizen.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Something just struck me; Trump is German/Scots and with that, his faux working class act and general lack of good taste he wouldn’t pass muster with the NYC high society WASPs, so this whole attempt to redefine citizenship is likely driven by that resentment, like Stephen Miller’s trauma over not being allowed to sit at the cool kids table at Sana Monica High school during lunch…
The guy is a walking soap opera.
Jeffro
@Booger: Can we start with banning multiple-bankruptcy real estate developers first? ;)
Barbara
@schrodingers_cat:
it appears that Trump (probably through Steven Miller) had a series of escalating steps ready to unveil as a lead up to the election, aimed at galvanizing turn out among groups most likely to share Trump’s white supremacist proclivities. It must be pissing them off six ways to Sunday that actual white supremacists have decided that waiting around is for cowards and acted on their own convictions. Not only is it sucking oxygen out of Trump’s calibrated initiative to foment the “right” kind of hysteria, it’s highlighting how noxious those initiatives are.
burnspbesq
Apparently, the “legal scholar” who thinks Trump can do this is the famous right-wing crackpot John Eastman, who teaches at the same law school that once employed Hugh Hewitt (Chapman).
Please continue, Professor.
Jeffro
I’ll tell you what…I’m chilling here in the lounge at my auto dealer while the Outback gets an oil change, and the TV is absolutely FILLED with Democratic ads. Wexton, Spanberger, etc. It’s encouraging.
Chris
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
NYC high society WASPs still care if you’re German or Scottish?
Barbara
@Mary G: It’s just unseemly, and frankly unkind to try to make yourself the center of attention at someone’s funeral. That’s for anyone, politician or otherwise. This is the end of the road for the families of the person who died, their one last chance to celebrate that person’s life and cry and sometimes laugh as they say good-bye. It’s just wrong to put yourself in the middle of that experience without an invitation if you did not know that person in life. At a minimum, Trump should have asked each of the families and then delayed a visit for a larger event that was not timed to coincide with actual funerals.
Betty Cracker
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: He’s a walking collection of untreated personality disorders.
Dev Null
@Cheryl Rofer: “Birthright citizenship” has been a focus of modern-era “conservative” agita for the past 50-odd years.
IANAL (so pay no attention to me, you’ve been warned), but …
… I spent several days researching the “debate” about 5 years ago.
It’s specious.
The legislative record is absolutely crystal clear. Birthright citizenship is what the congressional framers of the 14th Amendment intended. (IIRC, and I’m not sure I do, among other issues they wanted to be sure that the citizenship of (emancipated) former slaves could never be questioned… the 14th Amendment was passed when it did for … reasons.)
One of the legislators managing the passage of the amendment in the Senate was asked specifically during the debate whether the amendment would grant citizenship to a child born in the US to foreigners.
The answer was ‘yes’.
(I’m paraphrasing the question and the answer because I don’t remember the wording (and yeah, words matter, but sometimes legislative speech is unambiguous), but Kantrowitz is exactly right: legislative intent was unusually unambiguous.)
Also too, Wagner’s WaPost article references Michael Anton’s essay in the WaPost, which made the case for ending birthright citizenship. For whatever reason Wagner failed to mention Dan Drezner’s rebuttal a few days later which eviscerated Anton’s arguments.
It pisses me off that our failed press corpse puts up inflammatory reich-wing agit-prop like Anton’s essay without inviting countervailing opinions. Drezner published his rebuttal as part of his foreign affairs gig at the WaPost.
As for Trump’s EO, it is a good bet that this is a transparent political ploy on the part of Trump and Stephen Miller intended to incite the base just before the midterms.
If trash talk like this – an EO to circumvent the 14th Amendment, no trubba! and the rabid right said that Obama exceeded his authority with his Dreamer EO! – is all Trump has in the bag for his October Surprise, we should consider ourselves lucky.
In other news, habeas corpus.
Immanentize
@Jeffro: Well funded candidates have a lot of options. National distributed funding systems like Act Blue really are changing things around.
burnspbesq
In which an actual legal scholar blows Eastman et al to tiny bits.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=965268
Emma
@Chris: What they actually seem to care about if you’re a cheap chiseler that welshes on promise donations. They compete in throwing money at issues; it’s part of their social identity. Having money and not giving a lot of it away is considered vulgar.
Mary G
@Barbara: I just have a horrible premonition that he’ll get up in front of a bunch of grieving people whose history is nothing but fleeing one murderous state after another and bitch about keeping out “the invasion” of brown people. Part of me wants him to do it so people will vote out of repugnance, and that is pretty low of me.
chopper
@Keith P.:
it’s so crazy. how the hell, legally speaking, does considering a big group of immigrants looking for asylum to be a “national emergency” lead to ending birthright citizenship? i mean, these are the same guys who rationalized dairy tariffs on canada under ‘national security’ and of course congress rolled over for em, so sure they think they can get away with it, but what the actual fuck?
geg6
@Mary G:
No local officials accepted the invitation either. He and Melanoma and Javanka will be wandering around the city like the lost souls they are.
germy
@Jeffro:
Yes, things feel different this time.
In years past, every midterm season I’d see a million TV ads for republicans; really vile ads with b&w screengrabs of Pelosi, Reid, Obama, linking them to whatever local democratic politician was running. And then I’d see a handful of democratic ads.
This year there’s much more pushback. Every misleading republican ad is countered with two or more democratic ads setting the record straight.
Now it’s up to the voters. We need to win big, to discourage ratf*ckers.
Dev Null
@Mary G: They aren’t the only people who have told him not to come. Lots of articles in the press yesterday about Trump being unwelcome in Pittsburgh. Here’s one:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/29/18037574/bend-the-arc-pittsburgh-jewish-leaders-trump
The Spousal Unit read me part of the open letter. It’s devastating.
L85NJGT
@germy:
That strategy managed to create a three million vote deficit at the top of the ticket.
@Barbara:
The Trump GOP seems to be intent on replacing a reliable voting bloc – college educated white women, with an unreliable one – deplorables.
trollhattan
@Chris:
They don’t want anybody from Queens.
oldgold
Trump’s position on the language of the 14th Amendment does not even meet the giggle test. It is preposterous.
As such, should Trump attempt to undo this unambiguous provision of the 14th Amendment by executive order, he should be summarily impeached for violating his oath of office. An oath set out at Section 1 of Article 2 of the Constitution.
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Amir Khalid
@Snarki, child of Loki:
My understanding is that per Federal law, citizenship cannot be revoked except when gained by fraud in the naturalisation process, and can be renounced only in person, and only by an adult.
H.E.Wolf
@Ksmiami:
The 2nd sentence is what white conservatives said about liberals in the 1960s, right down to the “go to Russia if you don’t like it here” gibe.
The 1st sentence is eliminationist rhetoric (David Niewert has published books about it); and it’s toxic. It gets people murdered.
This moment in the history of our country is a good time to put the violent rhetoric on pause, and come help get out the vote.
Dev Null
@burnspbesq: One of many – and it’s not even one I came across when I was looking. I’m sure I could find the resource list I put together, as I was exchanging mails with a (now ex-) colleague on the topic… but frankly, it’s not worth the trouble. There is no good faith argument against birthright citizenship.
To borrow from Drezner’s response to Anton’s essay, the anti-birthright-citizenship argument is made in bad faith, mostly by racists.
Dave
@Mary G: Right; part of me is well he’s awful it’s going to be awful so might as well hope it’s awful in a manner that maximally rebounds on him and the GOP. That’s not exactly a super admirable desire though.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’m thinking the imaginary middle-class tax cut Trump floated didn’t work, so this is what they’re going with to make the media focus on immigration and racism, thus firing up their voters.
Dev Null
@Amir Khalid: Yeah, well. Masha Gessen pointed out back in June that fraud is what the government says fraud is:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/in-america-naturalized-citizens-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Blue Galangal: I take this one personally because my father wasn’t a citizen when I was born either. But then, he was Canadian, not Kenyan, so I’d probably get a pass.
Barbara
@oldgold: I agree that it does not pass the giggle test but doing it at all allows for all kinds of disruptive actions by like minded local officials that could create obstacles for individuals who are born in the U.S. to non-citizen parents of all kinds of status (permanent residents, and lawful visa holders, as well as undocumented immigrants). A baby whose citizenship cannot be proved, for instance, will not qualify for Medicaid. Think of that woman in Kentucky who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay people.
bemused
I just learned that Land O’Lakes gave $2,500 to Steve King and even though that is a small amount, evidently the blowback has been swift and effective. The person I talked to at LOL on consumer line said they would no longer give the racist any more money. She explained the donation was because of his vote on farming policies. I said there is no good reason, ever, to give money to a racist, white supremacist, nazi sympathizer.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Booger: Brat’s under investigation for plagiarizing in a scholarly paper. Brat copied from Benjamin Bernake! Plus, when a student asked Brat about the allegations, Brat shoved the young man aside and moved away hell for leather. He does not look to me like a man who can move quickly.
tobie
I can’t believe Trump is going all-in with the white Supremacist view that we should end birthright citizenship on the very day he’s going to Pittsburgh to commemorate slain Jews, some of whom were likely birthright citizens themselves, all of whom were killed because they were Jews and because their congregation supported refugees. This is so vile.
trollhattan
@bemused:
Good job! A slight alteration–King is not a nazi sympathizer, he’s a nazi.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Jeffro: I’d go with real estate developers period. It frosts me big time in Maryland that Larry Hogan’s ownership of a real estate development firm, not in a blind trust, run by his brother, getting much business since Hogan has been governor is not a campaign issue.
Dev Null
@trollhattan: I’m sure I’m not the first to mention it, so apologies to those who have already seen this: Steve King was quoted a couple of days ago saying that European neo-Nazis, were they Americans, would be Republicans.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Barbara: I hope the media put any pics they feel they have to take of Trump in a little box in the corner of the screen and keep the focus on the funerals and the growing threats to the Jewish community in this country. Let the contrast between sober reality and the buffoon speak for itself.
Aziz, light!
@Immanentize: Lenny Bruce joke: “Yes, we Jews killed Christ. And when he comes back, we’re going to kill him again.”
Gin & Tonic
@Dev Null: He’s not wrong….
Dorothy A. Winsor
@tobie: This a powerful wording of what’s awful here.
Doug R
@cmorenc:
They have no trouble ignoring half of one amendment “Well- regulated militia”
Brachiator
@Cheryl Rofer:
Yes! Yes! Yes! Great references here.
But here’s the sting:
Gelfling 545
Just wanted to share this video of Assembly Candidate Wochensky in NY 147 just because it’s cool. He’s also the guy who toured his district on a tractor.
https://www.facebook.com/LukeForNY/videos/772283419782621/
schrodingers_cat
Orange Man has nothing to offer except racism. Don’t fall for his latest ploy.
geg6
@Dev Null:
Not only that, but he got his visit paid for by a Holocaust remembrance group. He first visited a death camp and then went on to meet with Nazis.
Dev Null
@Gin & Tonic: I’ve been calling the GOP a criminal conspiracy for years.
But Republicans like Steve King and Kevin McCarthy and ex-Republicans (like Steve Schmidt and Max Boot and Jennifer Rubin) are make a much more compelling case.
ruemara
@geg6: because he had to hear from both sides, you see. And I wish I were kidding.
Re: subject. Isn’t that the opening, middle as well as closing arguments?
Doug R
@Gin & Tonic:
My late father was born in 1922 in Ukraine, he visited the Soviet Union in the late 1970s. He was well aware of the control and being followed anytime he went on a walk. He also noted “Russian engineering” in that everything was shabbily put together, not a straight cabinet to be found anywhere.
Cheryl Rofer
@Brachiator: “Controversy has arisen” = This is where the white supremacists think they have a chance.
Dev Null
@geg6: Yep. The mind reels.
A bit off-topic, but relatedly, I read that gun control groups are endorsing Republicans.
Suckers are born every minute …
… OTOH, King’s observation is the most damning commentary on the GOP I’ve ever seen, so perhaps the remembrance group got their money’s worth.
Admittedly, in a back-handed sorta way.
bemused
@trollhattan: @trollhattan:
I was trying to be politely horrified because it was kind of obvious that when I began to talk about the donation to a Nazi instead of a problem with their butter to the comment line person that there have been a lot of calls like mine. I also said I get donations for favorable policies but suggested they should do a little more research on the legislators’ other policies that are inexcusable.
Dev Null
@Brachiator: Perhaps I should find my resource list after all.
My recollection – again vague, in part because the original (legislative) intent arguments seemed to me to be dispositive – is that although those 1990s arguments sounded thoughtful and well-reasoned when I read them stand-alone, they simply didn’t hold water when viewed in light of the legislative record.
Ksmiami
@H.E.Wolf: I don’t see how we progress as a nation with such a large following of misinformed, violent and angry authoritarian people sans some sort of large scale denazification program and the elimination of Fox News and the entire rt wing media cabal but do go on appeasing Fascism – that will work out
Sister Golden Bear
Resharing from downstairs yesterday afternoon because it’s disturbing enough that I want to make sure people know about it. Plus I’m sure the Trumpistas express similar hate toward other minorities when they’re in safe spaces.
—
It’s just that simple: The Trumpistas and Talibaptists want us dead. Or at the very least, not exist.
From someone who tracks Trump groups on Facebook, and as a experiment (during the “bathroom bill” attacks), posted a photo of an extremely masculine looking trans man, Buck Angel, (don’t google him at work) and asked which restroom he should use:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2188821688063933&set=a.1530642677215174&type=3&theater
Yeah, that’s what we face. Trans people are heros for just daring to leave the house every day.
#WontBeErased #StillFuckingHere
gvg
Some people follow Trumps orders even when courts have done stays and such, because they want to. What needs to happen is consequences to ALL who obey clearly illeagle orders such as treating people as if they don’t have citizenship because of an executive order. Department bosses, mayors, Governors, sheriffs etc need to make some examples if Trump actually tries this. He has a history of blovating then not carrying on, so I am not sure this will actually get tried.
Many orders are much more unclear in legality and I don’t blame federal workers for obeying them until the courts sort it out, however I think this idea is too obviously not legal. No excuses here.
I have been brooding over our failure to punish torture in Bush’s terms, and have concluded we should have gone after the little fish, even though it seemed unfair because of orders. It would have made resisting illegal orders more likely in the future and some of them might have had proof of orders from higher levels who got away with no damage to their reputation because we didn’t try. Even if they couldn’t prove the orders, future potential minions would know to save proof, which again would make it a whole lot less likely to happen again.
So if Trump starts giving clearly illegal orders, and we think we can’t get him on charges directly, go after ALL the lower obedient minions. threats of jail time and job loss, should put a stop to it.
Brachiator
@oldgold:
Trump’s defense: “I never read the Constitution. Didn’t need to. I’m so smart, I know what the Constitution should have said. So true. Trust me.”
Ksmiami
@Sister Golden Bear: I’m so sorry- and that is why “civility” is a false prophet. We are dealing with very bad people and our response must be strong, unwavering and thorough. As Churchill recognized, there can be no negotiating and no accommodating with Nazis.
FelonyGovt
@Barbara: Jewish funerals are really wrenching (of course, all funerals are) because they’re held so soon after the death. Right after my mother’s funeral, the obnoxious rabbi tried to pick my husband’s brain about tax shelters, and I remain furious about that almost 40 years later. Now imagine your loved one has been taken away suddenly by unspeakable hatred, and the buffoon who has helped foment that hatred comes crashing the funeral…
Dev Null
@Brachiator: IIRC the most compelling reason arguments against birthright citizenship for “children of illegal immigrants” are specious is that the concept of “illegal immigrants” simply did not exist, at least as a matter of law, when the 14th Amendment was passed. Hard to believe today, but so I have read, and easy enough to check.
Again IIRC the first laws restricting immigration were passed 20 to 40 years after the Civil War ended…
… which is to say, the legislators who wrote and passed the 14th Amendment couldn’t have intended to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants because the distinction didn’t exist.
The Constitution says whatever SCOTUS says the Constitution says, and John Roberts has been known to discover Constitutional clauses which no previous reader of the Constitution has seen, but rewriting the accepted understanding of the 14th Amendment would be quite a stretch.
Perhaps even an overreach.
Brachiator
@chopper:
Trump has controlled and re-defined the argument here, despite legal challenges and losses.
He has drastically reduced the numbers of refugees permitted into the country and has shifted the terms of the discussion to erase any distinctions between refugees, asylum seekers, legal immigrants and undocumented persons. Instead, he tries to scare the country into thinking that he must do all he can to keep out an undifferentiated mass of disease riddled criminals, rapists and Muslim terrorists trying to invade the United States. And anyone who is not already a citizen (Dreamers, etc) is a moocher who does not belong and who must be ejected, along with those with recent but “defective” citizenship.
J R in WV
@JPL:
Ooh, Ooh, how about Dinish D’Souza??? Can we send him back to anywhere else???
One of my favorite most despicable varmits who isn’t more famous and on TV a lot.
Immanentize
@gvg:
An obviously sick bird…
b’dum tshssss….
Dev Null
Also, too: AP deletes tweet quoting Trump statement without context:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/after-blowback-ap-deletes-tweet-quoting-trump-false-claim
Q. How do you know that Trump is lying?
A. His lips are moving.
Brachiator
@Dev Null:
I agree. Still, this is likely to be the right wing line of attack. Coming back to Wong Kim Ark: even though the citizenship status of his parents were ultimately irrelevant to the case, I’m betting that Trump will try to claim that being an “illegal immigrant” should somehow be central to the issue of birthright citizenship.
Dev Null
@Immanentize:
Q. What’s the difference between the concepts “illeagle” and “unlawful”
A. One means “against the law”. The other is a sick bird.
(It works better as a standup comic line.)
I first heard this joke circa 1965 at a church dinner.
It hasn’t gotten any better in the intervening 50-odd years.
SFAW
@J R in WV:
Great idea, but can we repeatedly punch him in his Backpfeifengesicht, first? Of all the vile, Backpfeifengesicht-y scumbags infesting the right wing and Rethugs in general, his Gesicht is the Backpfeifen-est
Brachiator
@Ksmiami:
Problem is, the president himself is misinformed, violent and an angry authoritarian. His people are just following in his example.
SFAW
@Dev Null:
Or his tiny fingers are tweeting.
The Moar You Know
@J R in WV: Hard to find transportation back to Hell. But I’ll spring for the ticket.
Mnemosyne
@Tenar Arha:
Yep. Catholics may be towards the bottom of the list, but we’re still on the list.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
The irony of guys with those particular last names taking that stance is unspeakable.
Dev Null
@Brachiator:
I’m not disagreeing – I’m sure you’re correct – which is why it’s so important to keep the legislative record of the 14th Amendment front and center: because that record is so clear. (EDIT: It is my impression that …) A lot of legal argumentation turns on ambiguity in the text of the law and/or in the legislative record.
As best I can tell (again: IANAL), the only way the 14th Amendment can be fuzzed is with bad faith arguments.
Which Trump will make, of course. And perhaps Trump’s SCOTUS will buy those arguments … but the justices will have to twist themselves into pretzels to do so.
Personally, I’m more concerned about habeas corpus, per that link I posted upthread. Trump has gotten the message that he can suspend habeas corpus in the event of an “invasion or rebellion”, and is already bleating about “the invasion across our southern border”.
I am not a fan of conspiracy theorizing, but there’s no end to the damage Trump could inflict were he no longer hindered by habeas corpus. Yeah, I know, hard to believe that he would overreach to that extent …
… but if there’s one characteristic of Trump and his Administration that is salient above all others, it’s overreach.
Well, and corruption.
Overreach and corruption.
And incompetence.
Overreach and corruption and incompetence.
Ahem…
No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition.
The Moar You Know
@Mnemosyne: My wife was raised Catholic in CA, and was stone-cold floored the first time I said, jokingly, that “Catholics aren’t Christians”, which I’d been hearing all my life from the rest of my family that still lives in the hellhole that is the Deep South. I had to explain it to her. She had no idea. She did the research.
She is now very aware that she’s now on yet another list (because being female and liberal isn’t enough, right?)
WhatsMyNym
In other news – Russia’s only aircraft carrier damaged after crane falls on it
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
Someone who’s actually done the reading would need to find out, but weren’t Kim Wong Ark’s parents illegal because it was illegal for Asians to immigrate to the US?
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: Not so amusingly, one of my political discussion partners back in the day was a hardline ultra-theocon Catholic. I don’t know for certain that he was connected to the Republican heart of darkness, but occasionally one of his arguments would appear a week or so later as GOP talking points. No doubt a coincidence.
Anyway, his view – quoting as best I can remember – was that Catholics were the intellectual vanguard of the united religious right, and that Catholic intellectuals would lead the religious right to triumph.
I suggested to him that he should be careful what he wished for … that the next target of the evangelicals, after atheists, Jews, and liberals … would likely be Catholics. He laughed off the caution.
I saw him last month for the first time in years and years.
He’s now registered as a Democrat.
No particular point, just anecdata.
catclub
@Litlebritdifrnt: I was wondering if a different president could dramatically alter the plain meaning of other amendments via executive order.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
I bought Michael Lind’s book Up From Conservatism at a used bookstore years ago, and it’s pretty interesting. He actually worked for Pat Robertson for years and realized how much right-wing rhetoric is based in overt anti-Semitism. He was literally going through Roberts’ previous writings and removing the word “Jew” or “Jewish” without making any other changes or updates.
Amazon link:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0684831864/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_krj2BbAXGGC6G
opiejeanne
@Booger: Add John Schmitz to the list; he’s another example of community college teachers in Congress.
John G. Schmitz
catclub
@The Moar You Know:
I am guessing she was not a student of the KKK and its history.
opiejeanne
@Chris: I think high society WASPS care that Trump’s a boor.
James E Powell
@Mnemosyne:
I believe that is one way that they can acquire associate membership in The Club. Or so they believe.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
No.
Wong Kim Ark’s parents had been denied re-entry to the US because of anti-Asian immigration laws, but their son had been born in the US when they were legal residents.
Brachiator
@Chris:
In the old days, NYC high society cared if WASPs were descended from the old Dutch families. See, for example, Edith Wharton’s The Age of Innocence.
catclub
@Mnemosyne:
That isn’t irony. We have a long tradition of arriving and wanting to pull up the ladder to stop the next bunch of immigrants.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: I don’t think that’s correct. Wiki sez:
So his parents weren’t “illegals”, which – if I’m reading your question correctly – is your premise. (I’m using “illegals” as short-hand. “Undocumented” would be a better term.)
The fact that Wong Kim Ark’s parents were legal residents is critically important to anti-birthrighters, because that fact allows them to say “Wong Kim Ark doesn’t set precedent for children of illegals because Wong Kim Ark was a child of legals.” Which perhaps is the question you meant to ask.
Let me finish the quote:
(my italics)
I think this must be the article quoted previously – I didn’t notice – because Wiki continues:
The point I was making to Brachiator (and the italicized portion of the wiki quote kinda-sorta makes the same point) is that there were no illegal immigrants in the US when the 14th Amendment was written, passed, and ratified (in 1868). The concept of “illegal immigrants” as we understand it today … didn’t exist. Not terribly surprising, since with very exceptions, everyone was an immigrant, or at most a few generations away from an immigrant relative. Also, too: emancipated slaves.
Subsequent law created the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants, and subsequent law, being necessarily subordinate to the Constitution, in this instance the 14th Amendment (which, again, made no distinction between classes of immigrants, and the legislative record makes clear that the sponsors of the 14th Amendment did not intend such a distinction), cannot nullify a constitutional mandate.
You would need a constitutional amendment for that.
Or for SCOTUS to invent an exception because the Framers of the 14th Amendment weren’t smart enough to think of the exception themselves.
_____________
The argument that “Wong Kim Ark doesn’t set precedent for children of illegals because his parents were legal” is typical of the shoddy anti-birthrighter arguments. It’s argument by misdirection. True, his parents were legals, and they’re talking about illegals. So fsckin’ what? The legal / illegal argument is grounded in historical illiteracy. Or bad faith. Hey, why choose one, when you can have both?!?
Then again, IANAL, and Lindsey Graham, noted constitutional lawyer, announced while I was editing this that he supports Benedict Donald’s position on birthright citizenship.
So there’s that.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: Yep. I haven’t read either Lind or Robertson, but I saw an essay recently by someone (Josh Marshall? Booman? I don’t recall) making much the same point that you make, more or less that Robertson had taken explicitly antisemitic conspiracy theories of an earlier era and reproduced them almost verbatim, the primary difference being that Robertson took out explicit references to Jews and to Judaism.
It’s always conspiracy theories with the right… they have to be victims, and if they can’t identify the party which is victimizing them, then there must be a conspiracy.
And speaking of conspiracies, there’s a report going around that GOP operatives have been offering women money to allege sexual wrong-doing by Robert Mueller. Complaint referred to the FBI.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne: I’ve also seen anti-birthright arguments that go back to pre-Civil War days … some even go as far back as (IIRC) British common law of the 1600s or 1700s.
Something about “American citizenship law is derived from British common law, and British common law mumble mumble, so no birthright citizenship for illegals, QED!”
I kid you not. (Again, I might not have the details right, but y’know? It’s a lot harder to reconstruct / remember bad arguments than it is to remember good arguments.)
The problem with pre-Civil War arguments is that you have to believe that the Civil War and the 14th Amendment didn’t supersede British common law derivation; you have to believe that the 14th Amendment merely tweaks British common law.
The legislative record for the 14th Amendment is not consistent with the “derivation from British common law” argument.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Immanentize:
@Betty Cracker:
Hey, it’s Monday, there will be football on television, so it’s a great time–people can bond over the game. And the keg. And the bottles.
Raoul
Very late to this thread, but I just want to echo this as so grossly, perfectly correct.