(Aisne-Marne American Cemetery and Monument)
The President was supposed to go to the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery and Monument today.
Trump cancels visit to Ainse-Marne American Cemetery and Memorial in France amid bad weather that makes flying Marine One problematic. No word on how he will spend the rest of the day before a leaders’ dinner tonight.
— Peter Baker (@peterbakernyt) November 10, 2018
I’m sure all other forms of acceptable and securable transportation were also unavailable today in France because of the inclement weather. The Ainse-Marne American Cemetery and Memorial is only 50 miles from Paris in Belleau, France. Apparently The Beast doesn’t do well when its wet…
The Aisne-Marne American Cemetery and Monument commemorates:
With headstones lying in a sweeping curve, the 42.5-acre Aisne-Marne American Cemetery and Memorial in France, sits at the foot of Belleau Wood. The cemetery contains the graves of 2,289 war dead, most of whom fought in the vicinity and in the Marne Valley in the summer of 1918. The memorial chapel sits on a hillside, decorated with sculptured and stained-glass details of wartime personnel, equipment and insignia. Inscribed on its interior wall are 1,060 names of the missing. Rosettes mark the names of those since recovered and identified. In 1940 during World War II the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery chapel was damaged due to heavy fighting in the vicinity. All damage was repaired except for one shell hole in the chapel, left as a reminder of what took place.
Belleau Wood adjoins the cemetery and contains many vestiges of World War I. A monument at the flagpole commemorates the valor of the U.S. Marines who captured much of this ground in 1918.
Dedicated: 1937 Location: France Burials:2,289 Missing in Action: 1,060 Acres: 42.50
For those who aren’t into the history of World War I, The Battle of Belleau Wood was:
Set amidst small villages and farmland 50-odd miles north-east of Paris, Belleau Wood is as quiet now as it doubtless was before the fighting erupted there in June 1918. And that fighting was brutal.
On 30 May two other American divisions, the 2nd & 3rd*, were ordered into the area, arriving from different directions east and west. A machine gun battalion of the latter secured the south bank of the Marne at the key bridgehead of Château-Thierry as other of their number began to arrive on the scene.
But the main action of the weeks ahead would lie north-west of the town, involving men of the 2nd Division; in particular, two of their regiments, a brigade of Marines led by Pershing’s old chief of staff James Harbord. It would be their efforts to secure a woodland there that would capture headlines, helped in part by the purple prose of journalist Floyd Gibbons.
Belleau Wood was little more than a mile long and half a mile wide, yet it would cost many lives to capture and would be reported across the world.
“It was perhaps a small battle in terms of World War I,” says Professor Andrew Wiest of the University of Southern Mississippi. “But it was outsized in historic importance. It was the battle that meant that the US had arrived.”
Yet as operations go, as brave and tenacious as the soldiers were, it was poorly planned and badly commanded, certainly in its opening phases.
After adjacent areas were captured, the decision was taken to advance on the wood on the afternoon of 6 June. But little reconnaissance had been carried out as to what to expect when they got there and only scant artillery fire was laid down beforehand.
Inside, German machine gunners had taken up positions in defensive holes, behind rocky outcrops and shielded by dense undergrowth. Worse, the Marines now advanced towards them in rank formation over the exposed ground outside. They were slaughtered. By nightfall, 222 were dead and over 850 wounded.
Bloodied but focused on the task, they went again the next day. And the one after that. But little headway was being made. An intense artillery barrage now directed followed by yet another assault.
The casualties mounted, but still the German troops dug in. The fighting laboured on for three weeks, and in its final stages, foot by foot, hand to hand, it intensified in savagery.
Guns and grenades gave way to bayonets and “toad-stickers”, eight-inch triangular blades set on knuckle-handles, as the Marines slashed their way through the last of their enemy.
As the story goes, German officers, in their battle reports, referred to the Marines as Teufelshunde “Devil Dogs”; and journalist Gibbons also helped, singling out one gunnery sergeant in dispatches as “Devil Dog Dan”. Either way, the name and image stuck and went on to become a Marine mascot.
“It was the day the US Marines went from being a small force few people knew about to personifying elite status in the US military,” says Andrew Wiest. The corps had roots dating back to the American War of Independence but from Belleau, there developed much of its modern lore and myth.
More significantly, and of strategic importance, their intervention at Belleau and that of their 2nd and 3rd Division colleagues at the time in the surrounding area on the Marne put paid to the German advance, at what was a dangerous moment in the war for the Allies.
The commander of the US First Division Robert Lee Bullard declared after it: “The Marines didn’t win the war here. But they saved the Allies from defeat. Had they arrived a few hours later I think that would have been the beginning of the end. France could not have stood the loss of Paris.”
The Battle of Belleau Wood was a meat grinder. The Americans who fell there, as well as those who survived, are spoken of with reverence by both their actual descendants and those within the Profession of Arms. The US Marine Corps considers its modern history, especially of being something other than the Navy’s police force, began at Belleau Wood.
Author Alan Axelrod put it best in his book Miracle at Belleau Wood: “created … in 1775, the United States Marine Corps was born in that French forest … in 1918.”
Here’s a short video of Gen (ret) James Amos, the 35th Commandant of the US Marine Corps, at the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery and Monument on Memorial Day 2014.
Today the President has failed to keep his honor clean…
Open thread.
* It is from this series of battles that the 3rd Infantry would pick up its nickname: The Rock of the Marne Division.
Cheryl Rofer
Trump has never been able to acknowledge the sacrifices of others.
ruemara
It’s damned embarassing
Schlemazel
Today is also the USMC’s birthday
Germans dug in along a defensive line from Hill 204, just east of Vaux, to Le Thiolet on the Paris-Metz Highway and northward through Belleau Wood to Torcy. French forces in full retreat repeatedly urged the MArines turn back. Marine Captain Lloyd W. Williams of the 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines responded, “Retreat? Hell, we just got here”
Of course, had there be the threat of rain maybe he would have stayed in his hotel
Baud
When Hillary Clinton sought to honor those who had fallen in 9/11 despite her pneumonia, the Trump Deplorables and the media attacked her relentlessly.
But her emails!
guachi
As a member of the US Armed Forces, this infuriates me. It’s so disrespectful.
The Dangerman
Huh. I thought you were referencing Trump’s “hair”.
Need more Joe. Damn but I miss the jet fuel blends of Seattle (also can be used to strip floors, but definitely not a dessert topping).
Amir Khalid
Okay, what’s happened to the formatting now?
Baud
@Amir Khalid: Comment section is all black on Android mobile.
raven
I toured the 3d ID Museum at Ft Stewart and the docent was a trip without a suitcase. When he finished his speech with the “Rock of the Marne” story he was in tears. The displays of Sadam’s gold plated AK’s is pretty cool.
Adam L Silverman
We are, apparently, experiencing, server issues. Alain has submitted a ticket. Shortly after I hit publish on this post, the server crashed.
opiejeanne
@Baud: When I can get in, it’s all black on Opera.
Yes, I use Opera on this old Toshiba. Fight me.
Ian G.
So, in the last few hours, the piece of shit has a) accused accurate vote counting of being “fraud” without a shred of evidence, b) tweeted word salad blaming people who lost their lives/homes for the fires that took them, and c) couldn’t be bothered paying respects to war dead on the 100th anniversary of the end of the war in which they sacrificed their lives.
I think we need to invent new nouns and adjectives to describe him, because phrases like “low life piece of shit” or “flaming asshole” really don’t convey what he is.
Ken
@Baud: Also Firefox, except the edit window. Possibly the CSS.
Adam L Silverman
Right after I hit publish on this, we started having server issues. Including, at one point, a complete crash. Alain has submitted a ticket. We apologize for any technical difficulties.
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: The Beast is the nickname for the presidential limo.
Gelfling 545
Is the comment background supposted to be black? With gray characters?
trollhattan
This is a black day indeed, the comments resemble the northern California sky.
Donny needs to go golfing and never return. The mechanics I shall leave to others.
Percysowner
Suggestion to make the site more or less readable while waiting for the fix. Use the Zap Color bookmarklet https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html Install on your bookmark toolbar, then click. It takes the color scheme back to normal. It’s actually a cool tool for whenever you hit a weird, hard to read color scheme.
Adam L Silverman
@Gelfling 545: No, we were experiencing technical difficulties. Alain just texted to say he fixed it. Whatever it was.
trollhattan
The black fog has lifted. Trump is still president, so one for two.
FlyingToaster
If you’re getting black backgrounds, the stylesheets aren’t loading.
You can either quit the browser and re-start, or (geek alert!) go into the source and ⌘-click all the stylesheets to force-reload them only, then reload the page.
I’m sorry, I don’t know the Windows or keyboardless equivalent to ⌘.
Fester Addams
How do the Marines charged with flying his sorry ass around feel about the suggestion that they can’t operate in conditions that you wouldn’t cancel the company picnic for?
Mary G
No words. He is probably sitting on AF 1 stuffing his face with McDonald’s and watching Fox.
Beagleowned
Let’s be fair. You have any idea how much that kind of weather makes his bone spurs ache?!? Malcontents, every single one of you!
opiejeanne
@Ian G.: I think calling trump The Beast says it all.
And now the black is gone, but I’m on Google Chrome now, not sure if the problem is fixed now. Have to check the other platform.
dmsilev
Apparently the actual weather forecast for the area was “light rain with some misting”. I’m guessing that Marine One would have been fine and this was someone’s lame attempt at finding an excuse that sounded better than “Trump didn’t want to go”.
Adam L Silverman
@Fester Addams: My guess is the weather call is made by the air controllers up the chain of command.
JMG
Older people (like me!) get increasingly uncomfortable thinking about their mortality. But as a narcissist, Trump is positively freaked out by the idea of death. That’s why no visits to Dover or to the troops overseas. A whole cemetery probably would render him unable to stand for the entire ceremony.
Adam L Silverman
@dmsilev: It would have been. If they’re flying the Sea King version, it’s designed for harsh weather over open seas, so it shouldn’t have been an issue. The Blackhawk version of Marine One should also be okay with light rain and mist.
opiejeanne
@Mary G: To be fair, McDonalds in France is really good. We only ate there on a dare and were surprised by the food and the menu.
TaMara (HFG)
The site seems to be borked, so I pulled my last post and it will reappear around 5pm if things clear up.
Ian G.
@dmsilev:
Right. If you watch the video of Merkel and Macron together at this site of the armistice earlier in the day, it’s not even raining. It actually looks like a nicer day that the cold and wind we have here on Long Island. Yeah, it has to be cover for something else, like he’s having a psychotic break over something (the election, his con artist clown show AG, the likelihood that his son gets indicted, etc.)
chris
No surprise to me. Why would he go to a cemetery? The people in it are dead so they can’t chant and they have no money.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Imagine having so little sense of history, to say nothing of the presidency, that you could be a participant in this moment, and choosing not to.
trollhattan
@JMG:
Great insight that dovetails with his cockamamie theory each of us only has N amount of energy so exercise is bad, m’kay?
Didn’t wingnut America pitch a fit when Obama went to Dover to receive combat fatalities, or somesuch? Bush the lesser, of course, was allergic. Obama would go to Arlington without the press and mingle with families there. Obviously some kind of monster.
Fester Addams
In photos of Canadian PM Trudeau at the event it looks a little breezy. Certainly no one wants a repeat of the sudden gust exposes expanse of cadaverous, balding scalp incident.
Frankensteinbeck
@Ian G.:
D) Declared he’s going to give Sheldon Adelson’s wife the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
@Ian G.:
While that is a completely realistic explanation, bear in mind that he’s a 100% self-centered asshole. ‘Doesn’t feel like it’ is enough for him to violate any norm, as long as he’s not afraid of being punished for it.
trollhattan
@Fester Addams:
Yup, briefly like a de-helmeted Vadar.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
his wife is from Slovenia
Remember how Republicans used to drone on about our loss of status around the world under Obama? A claim belied by polls in just about every country but Israel and Russia
sukabi
Unless they’re having hurricane force winds and thunder storms there’s no reason that a Marine helicopter couldn’t fly a mission, other than fatbastard doesn’t want his hair helmet to come unglued.
Ruckus
@guachi:
As a peacenik vet, this pisses me off massively.
Stupid fuck can’t do the simplest thing for anyone else.
Men and women have endured massive hardships, been wounded and lived with the after effects for decades, and yes, have died for their country, even as they didn’t agree with it’s leaders, he can’t be fucking bothered to honor them? Fucking wanker.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
NotoriousJRT
@Cheryl Rofer:
He doesn’t understand actual sacrifice for starters.
Yarrow
Such shade in this tweet. Photo is excellent.
sukabi
@Ruckus: he’s certainly working on changing the political calculous of the military….how many service members will support republicans after trump gets done shitting all over them for his own vanity?
MattF
OT on a bleak day:
Two little videos:
ROBOTPROBLEMS
WASHED UP
laura
Omnishambles likely has the shits, can’t get his hair frothed up, pissing and moaning about Macron, unable to control the narratives on hush money and Whitaker, pending indictments, and the general lack of press toadying, so why bother leaving his hotel room and Fox tv.
International infrastructure week continues apace.
zhena gogolia
@JMG:
What a fucking snowflake.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Baud:
I remember that picture of her being helped up some steps turned into a disgusting meme, where she was being led to her execution at the gallows.
Yarrow
@TaMara (HFG): I saw it briefly on my phone. Cleo looked adorable.
Bill K
As a veteran, I don’t want Cadet Bone-Spurs ‘honoring’ the brave soldiers buried there.
SiubhanDuinne
I don’t believe Trump ever intended to visit the cemetery at all.
I think he’s still being sullen about the fact that he couldn’t have his own big, beautiful military parade down Pennsylvania Avenue, which was originally kinda-sorta scheduled for this date.
His dissing of America’s war dead infuriates me beyond all rationality. Rain hasn’t kept him from going to rallies. And I’ve been on a sufficient number of teams putting together high-level visits (Prime Ministers, Premiers, Ambassadors) to know that there is always always ALWAYS an inclement weather backup plan. Always. It is beyond belief that even the incompetent Trump WH didn’t bake in an alternative transport scenario.
Furious about this. Seething.
Ruckus
@Ian G.:
We don’t have words in our languages that could possibly convey how bad he is. We should try anyway, he’s that bad.
dmsilev
@Adam L Silverman: In the replies to the Peter Baker tweet up top, there’s a photo of Obama at a Memorial Day service in 2010. It’s raining, and he’s holding an umbrella.
Oh, for the days when we had a President who wasn’t a reincarnation of the Wicked Witch of the West.
Yarrow
@sukabi:
Was wondering the same thing. Sending a bunch of troops to the border for political reasons and then moving on from the whole “scary caravan and brown people” thing the day after the election may wake up a few more.
It’s not even so much what he does but no elected Republican officials are doing anything about it. They don’t speak out against him, they don’t pass legislation stopping him. Nothing.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
How does the “America fuck yeah” right wing defend this?
Omnes Omnibus
I am just fucking appalled.
Frankensteinbeck
@Ruckus:
Republican.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow:
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
I noticed that earlier. Pleased to say that Don Mackay is a former colleague and good friend.
Frankensteinbeck
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
“HA HA! Stupid foreigners! I’d have ditched them, too.”
Remember it’s always about hate, not about supporting anyone or anything. It’s an entirely negative ethos.
Adam L Silverman
Ruckus
@chris:
OK, had to at least giggle at that one, even as pissed off as I am, have to say, that was spot on.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Omnes Omnibus:
He’s absolute scum. This is such a pivotal moment in history occurring right now and he’s shitting all over our most important allies. Livid doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel right now, and I’m not some pro-military person either. It’s just common decency to honor those who have died.
Adam L Silverman
@dmsilev:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/us/politics/01obama.html
Quinerly
@Adam L Silverman: haven’t read all the comments, so maybe someone mentioned… Kelley and Pompeo managed to get there without a hitch.
Ruckus
@sukabi:
Just a wild guess, 27%
Arclite
Trump saw “Ainse” and thought “Why would i celebrate Asian people?”
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Same way they defend everything else. Claim it isn’t happening. When that fails blame it on Hilary and Obama. When that fails claim that it doesn’t matter because they’ve owned the libs.
Luciamia
@Adam L Silverman: huh? My old Honda Civic used to stall out in heavy rain. You’d think the Potus would have something better.
Yarrow
I saw some video of Trump and Macron sitting in chairs next to each other, I guess answering a few questions from the press. Macron kept leaning over and patting Trump’s leg. The TV was muted so I don’t know what they were saying but the body language looked like Macron was patting a very young child. “Donny here is going to get to go to the big military parade!” (pat pat) “He loved the one last year, didn’t you Donny?” (pat pat)
germy
Last time PEETUS went out in the rain it messed up his hair.
I think it was after a shooting. He joked with the audience about how his hair got wet and wasn’t right.
So better safe than sorry, I guess I’m saying.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: You and me both!
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
He has the unmitigated gall to accuse Democrats of not supporting the military and veterans.
Has anyone from DoD (like Secretary Mattis) or the VA (whoever is in charge there) or the VFW or American Legion made a statement? Not that statements per se would accomplish much, but IMO they should all at least go on record deploring this petty and offensive decision.
Ruckus
@zhena gogolia:
Don’t do that.
Snowflakes are beautiful. Sure they are cold and wet. Sure we have to pick them up en mass with shovels and plows. Sure they turn all gray and dirty sitting in piles in parking lots.
But snowflakes are beautiful. The asswipe you described is anything/everything but, in every possible way. He’s uglier on the inside by unmeasurable yardsticks than he is on the outside. And he ain’t good looking on the outside.
Jay
@opiejeanne:
Calling his hair “The Beast” is more bang on. Screw Alex Jone’s “Lizard People/Illuminati” CT,
The Insane Clown POTus has been “colonized” and is being controlled by an evil, Klingon made, genetically modified, mange infected Tribble.
NotoriousJRT
@dmsilev:
My thoughts exactly.
Frankensteinbeck
@Adam L Silverman:
That reminds me. I saw a really good Twitter thread (yesterday, so I can’t find it now) about why Republicans are denying the Acosta thing, even with video in front of them. They don’t believe the President. It’s not about that. It’s about supporting their side and denying our side any victories (you know, ‘owning the libs.’) Like Trump, they don’t care what’s true or that they’re obviously, demonstrably wrong and the truth is right there in front of both sides.
I personally would add that once people reach that point, they quickly convince themselves of the lie, and again, evidence is irrelevant, no matter how blatant.
Quinerly
Gotta love this Independent piece… headline with the quotes and references to Trump’s bone spurs and deferments.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-paris-latest-cancels-memorial-visit-us-military-cemetery-remembrance-world-war-one-a8627571.html
Schlemazel
Don’t know if this is well know but the last decent Republican, TDR, has two sons buried in the cemetery Dump refused to visit. The contrast could not be more stark. Not that it matters but I tweeted this at hair furor
.
FDR lost a son in WWII, has there been a POTUS since with a child that honorably served? I can’t think of one
Baud
I’ve been watching the Great War on YouTube. WWI was a horrific war for the (mostly European) soldiers, perhaps more so than WWII was. But I’m sure Trump is at least wearing a flag pin on his bathroom while watching Fox from the comfort of his hotel room.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
@Frankensteinbeck:
That’s no way to go through life. How pathetic.
germy
@Schlemazel: Mitt Romney has something like twenty sons but none of them served.
jimmiraybob
I read somewhere that when a president is moved anywhere there is separate air transport of additional ground vehicles like armored SUVs. Just in case.
Baud
Speaking of WWI, I think we have to get used to the idea that our politics are now like trench warfare. When it ends, it will end rapidly, but until then, there will just be a whole lot of stalemate battles and holding the line than any grand victories.
Ruckus
@Frankensteinbeck:
Well it’s getting to that point isn’t it?
But some still think that republican isn’t a swear word. That’s what makes it ineffective as a descriptor.
Maybe we need a contest to find the words, combination of words, a bumpersticker phrase, that best describes this putrid stench of the worst of the worst human traits, this one collection of everything bad about humans, this example of horrible, worse than useless, stank, skank, pile of excrement.
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: All I can say is that tomorrow at 11:00, I will be standing up. One hundred years after that meat-grinder ended, the poor bastards who had to be there deserve some respect.
As I said yesterday, I am a rank sentimentalist.
Baud
@germy:
Not true.
Schlemazel
@Baud:
Been pimping that here several times over the last 4 years. Seriously good history but I am glad I did it over 4 years & not tried to do it in bunches. I would guess 30+ hours of videos
Mnemosyne
@Frankensteinbeck: i
It’s also a small and petty exercise of power at a time when he feels like he’s under attack: I’m not gonna go and you can’t make me because I’m the president and you’re not!
And if you’re hearing that in the voice of a three-year-old having a tantrum, then you’re hearing it right.
Schlemazel
@germy:
Poppy Bush & Loyd Bensens kids hid out in the TANG, zero chance of going to Vietnam, though the Bensen’s actually finished their enlistment unlike boy george
Baud
@Schlemazel: I binged watched it and caught up to 1918 while I was recovering from my surgery. I assume the next episode will be the last. I’ll miss it.
Adam L Silverman
@Quinerly: I just saw that in follow up reporting. Actually it was Kelly and Gen Dunford, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I understand why Dunford hasn’t retired (essentially resigned in protest ahead of his scheduled retirement next year), but Kelly’s willingness to debase himself just boggles the mind.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Frankensteinbeck:
Some RWer sped up the video of Acosta and the microphone to make it look like he was assaulting that aide.
Mike in NC
@chris: Yup. He couldn’t sell MAGA hats to a bunch of dead Doughboys and Marines.
hueyplong
Trump would have embarrassed the US more if he had attended.
Making the trip at all is something I question if the goal is to cause the least embarrassment possible.
Immanentize
Maybe we should ask John “Honor” Kelly about this episode. Jackasses all.
Adam L Silverman
@Luciamia: I know, right?
Mr Stagger Lee
One of the best channels on YouTube, is called The Great War by a guy named Indy Nidel, he gives a week by week stories of the events of World War One as well as biographies of some of the individuals as well as backgrounds on battles nations and other events, an excellent way to learn about war that has been forgotten by Americans
Ruckus
@SiubhanDuinne:
They won’t make statements.
They don’t want to get on his bad or only side. It’s all for one, fuck everyone else. Not such a catchy phrase but then…..
These are not good people, the toddies of the shitstain.
Frankensteinbeck
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
I’m aware, and even then it didn’t look like he was assaulting her.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: Here’s VoteVets. Their CEO is Major General (ret) Paul Eaton.
Immanentize
@Schlemazel: Didn’t Ike’s son serve in the Navy?
Achrachno
@Mary G: “stuffing his face with McDonald’s” is good. Give him another helping, with extra fries.
Immanentize
@Baud: This is a real useful analogy. Thank you
Adam L Silverman
@Frankensteinbeck: Yep. More’s the pity.
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman:
Not me, based on his observed behavior over the time he’s been in the Trump admin. Either he believes in what Trump does and is helping to make it happen or they have something on him and he’s afraid it’ll get out.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I wonder if he’s ill. He certainly has to be jet lagged, and at his age, recovery from that is slow. Have we seen him walking much lately or only tooling around in a golf cart?
The image of the leaders of Germany and France standing side by side is thrilling and hopeful. A hundred years ago, who would have predicted it?
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Relatedly, I’m guessing it must be one hell of an honor to be selected to represent your country at the Armistice centennial. Is the American delegation of veterans just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, or did we not send one?
dmsilev
@Adam L Silverman: Kelly has gone all-in on Trump. I certainly don’t know him so I can’t speculate as to motives, but his actions both at DHS and in the White House make that pretty clear.
Quinerly
@Adam L Silverman: yep. AXIOS had mention of Dunford. The Independent piece said Pompeo. Read the Brit piece first.
Adam L Silverman
@Schlemazel: I think the closest you get is that Jeb!’s son George P. was an intelligence officer in the US Navy Reserve.
Elaine Benis
I’ve only seen still photos of the event, but it looks like a bit of walking was involved. I think that’s a problem for Trump, and the optics of He-Man Supreme Leader using a golf cart (again) vs young, vibrant Trudeau, Macron etc is untenable.
He’s gained a ton of weight and he looked horrible in HD at the Acosta presser.
Schlemazel
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hennepin County built a beautiful parkway known as Victory Memorial Drive. There is a large memorial (refreshed by a few years ago in preparation for this year) to the those who served. There are markers evenly spread the whole length, one for every Hennepin County resident that died in the war to end all wars. image: https://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/cross-victory-memorial-drive.jpg
There is a service tomorrow from 10 till 11, we will be there
Baud
OT. Guys, it turns out the email story has some legs after all. (NY Post via LGM).
Tom Levenson
@Schlemazel: Eisenhower’s son graduated from West Point on D-Day and retired as a brigadier general. Carter’s older son enlisted in the Navy during Vietnam. He was less-than-honorably discharged when he and ~50 others were found to have smoked some dope, but I’d count enlisting then as serious.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Schlemazel: Wasn’t Carter’s son in the navy?
Ruckus
@Schlemazel:
Eisenhower’s son John served in the army, out of active duty in 63
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Eaton is good people.
On another note, I find myself more emotional than I would have expected to be about this.
J R in WV
@ Goku:
That’s how “America Fuck Yeah” defends this.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: That’s not true. Each of them spent two years serving in the missionary position.//
Schlemazel
@Baud:
I ended up watching 4-6 weeks at a time every month or so. I find the host has some annoying tics so I couldn’t take more than that at a time but couldn’t manage to watch it every week.
Omnes Omnibus
@Schlemazel: No one has a obligation to serve in the military.
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: Actually Amazon saved it from cancellation and picked it up for another season because of an email writing campaign by the fans.//
Mr Stagger Lee
@Schlemazel: I wasn’t FDR’s sons, his cousin Theodore Jr died of a heart attack days after D-Day. Interesting enough FDR’s sons served in the pacific IIRC, and one of them did receive a rank of Brigadier General only after his father needed to be convinced by George Marshall his son did truly earned the rank.
Mike in NC
Wait until FOX News comes out with a story about how Lincoln almost skipped going to Gettysburg because he was afraid his top hat might blow off.
Schlemazel
@Tom Levenson:
HA! I had never heard about Carter. Worst punishment would have been having to face a disappointed Jimmy Carter.
Thanks for the list though, I thought there might be a couple but I was not aware of any.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: I feel for the poor soldiers who will now have to retroactively die so I can be entertained.
That said, yay!
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: My guess is that European Command and the Service Component Commands will be sending delegations.
Jay
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
One of Alex Jones Henchmen.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2018/11/08/white-house-shares-manipulated-infowars-video-to-justify-cnn-press-ban/amp/
Adam L Silverman
@dmsilev: I have a close friend and former teammate – retired Marine colonel – that knows him well. He has no idea what is up with him, is very displeased with what he’s observed, and basically doesn’t want to talk about it.
raven
Has he said the SS wouldn’t let him go yet?
Platonailedit
Schlemazel
@Omnes Omnibus:
No Potus has an obligation to commit the lives of young men & women to a meat grinder either.
I would feel a lot better about it if they felt they had some skin in the game. Particularly todays GOP who feel no pain that is not their own.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
And we all recall how dad Mittens himself bravely faced the French as his missionary service in lieu of having naughty Southeast Asian jungle misadventures. Almost as tear-inducing as Lady Ann clipping bond coupons and selling precious stocks while they were in college. [sniff]
rikyrah
Matthew Chapman (@fawfulfan) Tweeted:
North Dakota Republican Who Sponsored Law Disenfranchising Native Americans Loses Election — to a Native American https://t.co/sGfIynWpwp https://twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1060933216784314370?s=17
Mr Stagger Lee
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: WWI is not a KICK ASS war like World War II no John Wayne,no Lee Marvin, to the average Trump addled flag waving Yahoo, America kicked them some Nazi and Jap ass, and the British, Soviet Red Army, Australian, Partisans from France to Vietnam, well they went along for the ride.
germy
I posted this in an old thread:
Peter Jackson restored some old WWI footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYIeactlMWo
State of the art restoration with color.
“They Shall Not Grow Old” has sort of a double meaning.
The film restoration means we won’t let them grow old and forgotten.
The War meant they would never live to old age.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve been on a medium burn since a week ago Wednesday.
Frankensteinbeck
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to be in the military, or even avoiding the draft, but if you do you lose all right to claim you’re a macho brave man, and you’d better treat war like something horrible and terrifying no one should be put through.
trollhattan
@Mike in NC:
It’s funny because if they thought of it, Fox would do it.
J R in WV
@Omnes Omnibus:
So you have already forgotten the draft, where young men enlisted at the point of a gun? I freely admit I enlisted in the Navy a couple of weeks before I would have had to appear to be “enlisted” into the Army or Marines to “serve” in Vietnam.
If the alternative is prison, I would call that an obligation.
Yes, I know you’re talking about sons of presidents… still.
Schlemazel
@Mr Stagger Lee:
my mistake. I know they had to fight to get ‘regular’ assignments. One few a ton of missions & was wounded a couple of time (I thought he had died, fuzzy memory) & one resigned his commission & enlisted in the Marines to counter GOP lies about him benefiting from nepotism
Omnes Omnibus
@Schlemazel: My mom and dad showed up at the protests at the 1968 Democratic Convention. They served this country as much as any soldier did.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Eaton is good people.
germy
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: The horror…
Baud
@germy: That’s amazing.
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: I grew up post-draft. You are correct for you really old people.
Platonailedit
@rikyrah:
And a woman. A twofer for the scum.
J R in WV
@Omnes Omnibus:
“I grew up post-draft. You are correct for you really old people.”
If you stand really still for just a few minutes, I’ll creep over there and smack you for that ageist slur ! ;-)
Another Scott
@Baud: Shocking!!
By which I mean, of course he did.
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
One hundred years. Not just an annual observing of WW1 is it? A somewhat grave occasion this one is.
WW1, 116,708 US military dead.
WW2, 407,300 US military dead.
Vietnam, 58,318 US military dead. Allies, over 300,000
Vietnam, 303,644 US wounded. Allies, over a million.
This ain’t no little thing to be ignored. This is a slap in the face of every person whose ever served. The supposed commander in chief doesn’t give a flying fuck about any of them, the oath they took or the suffering that goes along with the jobs.
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: I am waiting.
raven
@J R in WV: I had the choice between the Army and the joint, 52 years ago today!
chris
Baud
@chris: I wonder if they’ll get service medals.
ETA: At least it’s not drizzling like in France.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: I watched from the barracks at Ft Lewis while waiting to ship out (there was none of that “deploy” shit then).
Baud
@raven: Do you feel like you chose wisely?
raven
@germy:
‘The Lives of the Dead’ is the final chapter of Tim O’Brien’s novel, The Things They Carried. In this chapter, the narrator reminisces about his childhood friend, Linda, who died. He considers how stories serve to awaken the dead.
The narrator begins the final chapter by reflecting on the power of narrative. ‘Stories can save us,’ he claims. He explains that, as a writer, he can bring many of his friends and loved ones back to life. Story telling is a kind of dreaming, where the dead awaken and briefly return to the world.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: Do you think I am not fuming about this? I am possibly sub-rational about this.
J R in WV
All humor aside, the callous indifference Drumpf shows to the sacrifices made by the USMC, the Armies of the US, Great Britian, France, and Canada today and no doubt continuing tomorrow, the 11th of November — this is despicable. Beneath even a Republican.
And the rest of the world knows this, is remarking on it. He will not have a safe haven once he leaves office anywhere. He’ll have to stay in his “gold” tower and watch Faux TV news. A fate worse than death.
tomtofa
Trump isn’t there for WW1 ceremonies (or the peace conference), he’s there to meet Putin tomorrow.
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: True.
[rant]
And everyone actually can’t serve in the military – someone has to stay home and work the farms and the factories and the schools and the businesses and the courts and all the rest. Even in wars of national survival. Those jobs have to be done and are just as important to victory as being in uniform. There’s nothing dishonorable about never having been in active duty the military.
But, I think we all agree, those who don’t pick up arms and use them in far away places don’t get to loudly and baselessly claim some mantle of More Better Patriot than those who do.
Republicans have no shame about this stuff. Look at how they trashed McGovern and Cleland and Duckworth and all the rest. It’s what they do.
And, finally, adult children are not property of their politician parents – parents don’t get to “sign them up” – and I wish people would stop talking that way. It’s senseless.
[/rant]
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Include me in that sentiment.
Schlemazel
@Omnes Omnibus:
I was a couple years too young for that but was tear gassed at the U a year later and taken into custody protesting the murders at Kent St. the year after that. I was 4-F (born fucked up inside) and was against the war. I have come to realize many of my fellow protesters were not against the war per se but very much against their participation in the war. Those were the Reagan voting boomers. The ones who got their last hard on sending other peoples kids into Iraq
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: I will stand by what I said.
something fabulous
@Schlemazel: Also, in thinking about it, a large proportion of Presidents starting with Truman had daughters only (who could have chosen to serve in some manner of course, but less likely in the day): to my count, Truman, LBJ, Nixon, GW, Clinton, and Obama. Everyone else, I think, mixed bunches. None boys-only. Surely that’s statistically odd? Wonder why.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Very, very sorry if you got the wrong impression. I was not in any way dissing you. Just some info on how much of a big deal tomorrow really is.
I’m on your side, I really, really am.
rikyrah
Marc E. Elias (@marceelias) Tweeted:
BREAKING: Florida Secretary of State orders full machine recount — results due by Thursday. Current margin in Senate race is 12,562 (.15%). Not all results have been uploaded to Sec of State site. More Dem than GOP remains out, thus margin may shrink further still.
https://t.co/3xmIvUXcol https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1061325233100152835?s=17
J R in WV
@Omnes Omnibus:
“I am waiting…”
It’ll be a long wait — I don’t even know which way to totter! ;-)
ETA: Perhaps you should just consider yourself virtually smacked? I’m done here!
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Omnes Omnibus:
Why didn’t you just call them decrepit while you were at it ;)
raven
@Baud: Well, let’s see. I was sent to Korea because I was 17 and you had to be 18 to go to the Nam. When I came home the stateside duty sucked so much I volunteered for Vietnam and did a tour there. So I guess in the sense that I was basically unscathed it was probably the best decision. I did consider Canada before signin up for Vietnam so I’ll refer you to Tim O’Brien’ On Rainy River. I’ve had a good life so I don’t think going to jail would have been the best choice for me.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@raven: That book is amazing. My favorite chapter is the first one, the one the title comes from. But maybe not. Maybe it’s the night in the field. I don’t know. There are many to choose from.
As a collection of war stories, the other one I like is Phil Klay’s Redeployment. Klay served in Afghanistan, came home and used his GI benefits to get an MFA, and wrote a prize winning collection of short stories that blew me away.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Mr Stagger Lee:
To add to what you are saying: WW1 was a much more morally ambiguous war than WW2 as well, which is partly why I don’t think it figures much in the larger consciousnesses.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: We are okay..
germy
@rikyrah: Wow. I hope there’s a full count in Georgia, also.
raven
@Another Scott: My parents had to sign me up, if you were under 18 it required parental approval. I joined 52 years ago today on the 17th.
sukabi
@Another Scott: I’ll bet Comey’s emails that were deemed “too sensitive” and thereby classified by those remaining in the DOJ were actually expressions of his personal affinity for republican policies of denigrating and criminalizing Clinton.
Bemused senior
@raven: Happy birthday to us both.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: So you construed my comment to be critical of them?
Platonailedit
And the rethugs’ heads explode.
raven
@something fabulous: Fuck LBJ, he wore a phony-ass Silver Star pin that he fucking stole.
Omnes Omnibus
Come on. You know me.
raven
@Bemused senior: Ding! I did one of those “For his birthday, he would like to KICK THE SHIT OUT OF AUBURN”!!
Schlemazel
@Another Scott:
almost all of the kids are adults long before daddy dearest is POTUS. What is lacking is the sense of any sacrifice for the good of the many. I believe that grows out of an upbringing og ‘look out of number 1’. I would happily substitute some service, Peace Core, Americore, Red Cross volunteer, something, anything that indicated some belief that they owe some debt to be repaid for the benefit of being an American.
Despite being physically unfit for the Army I was a Red Cross volunteer helping flood victims recover 2 springs. I was a regular volunteer at the county home for indigent. It was full of WWI vets, many that had never recovered from the experience & it was their stories that ignited my interest in history as real people lived it. Nobody told me I had to do these things, nobody expected me to do these things but I was raised in an environment that displayed a sense of duty too many politicians (and voters for that matter) do not comprehend. They think I am a fool & Ayn Rand pegged it
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: I assume that was to me?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Omnes Omnibus:
Are we ok, Omnes? ?
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: Come on. You know me.
Schlemazel
@raven:
I never hear that story – WTF?
raven
@Dorothy A. Winsor: The Yellow Birds by Kevin Powers is good too.
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: Wisconsin is sucking ass at the moment. Not a happy monkey.
raven
@Schlemazel:Mr. Johnson, then a lieutenant commander in the Naval Reserve, flew the bombing mission” without orders and only so that he could see what such missions were like. It was the high point of a little oyer seven months he spent in uniform in World “War II. j
No one else on the plane got a fucking jelly bean.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: I can’t get any interest in the Illini, sigh.
zhena gogolia
@raven:
I wish you’d known my father. Although he was a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat, he couldn’t stand LBJ because he’d met him in Texas during WWII.
raven
raven
@zhena gogolia: Good man he was!
Tokyokie
Trump values keeping his crappy comb-over dry far more than he does the past sacrifices of the country’s military personnel. And his party claims to be the one that’s the most patriotic. Pathetic.
Yarrow
I am watching the Scotland-Fiji rugby match and the players all have poppies on the sleeves of their jerseys. They had a minute of silence at the beginning of the match. It’s being played in Edinburgh. (I’m behind watching the rugby this weekend so please no spoilers.)
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Mr Stagger Lee: You would think that Alvin York would be right up their alley….
We’ll just ignore that unpleasant comment about Lindbergh.
Adam L Silverman
Schlemazel
@raven:
Jay-Zeus fram-a-jamin crisp! Just googled the story. What a load of horseshit.
When #1 son got back from Afghanistan there was a little ceremony & medals & awards were tossed out like Mardi Gras beads. His went in a drawer & when I asked why he didn’t display them with his combat ribbon & challenge coin he said it was because so many guys who were never outside the wire got similar (including a couple of bronze stars) he said they didn’t mean anything to him because they obviously didn’t mean anything to the Army. I think I will not tell him about LBJs silver star
let me join you in a hardy fuck LBJ
VeniceRiley
My grandfather fought in France in WW1. He survived, got a medal from the French with a lady on it, and much later became national commander of the purple heart.
Our PEETUS is a piece of deranged garbage.
Ruckus
@Baud:
I’m like JR in WV.
I was 1A for 2 yrs, couldn’t stand coming home to maybe find that envelope. I joined the navy, 2 months later they had the first draft lottery, my number was 15. I was going someplace, to the military, to Canada, to jail, at least it was my decision. Was it worth it? Well, I’ve been to Copenhagen, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Norway, Spain, Italy, Greece, Gitmo, sailed in the North Atlantic – in the winter, I have the VA healthcare system and I didn’t get wounded or dead.
Yeah, it was all worth the last part. And in some infinitesimal small way I served my country, without have to shoot anyone.
rikyrah
The manual vote terrifies them in Florida.
raven
@Schlemazel: Every officer who served in the Nam got a Bronze. The V device is the key. Also, lot’s of people didn’t “go outside the wire” most actually. Not to denigrate the grunts but there are lots of ways to die. Actually I didn’t throw any of my shit away at Dewey Canyon 3 for the same reason. Dudes were tossing shit that mattered, not just show-up ribbins.
A Ghost To Most
My wife just said, for the first tiime, that she is glad that her father, a B-24 pilot whose brother died on the beach at Normandy, is not alive to see these days.
Ruckus
@Tokyokie:
The one thing to never, ever forget with republicans is of course –
Profuckingjection. Everything they do, everything they say, there is always projection involved.
divF
@raven: There was some deployment. My father trained up the Ninth Infantry Division prior to its deployment to Vietnam in December 1966. Spending a summer and fall in enlisted housing in Ft. Riley kinda sucked for teenage me. Dad was reassigned back to the Engineer School at Fort Belvoir after they deployed, which was much better.
MagdaInBlack
@Adam L Silverman:
Oh my.
I feel a new “spat” with Canada brewing.
Yarrow
@rikyrah: OT– I saw you ask the other day about what the Florida Commissioner of Agriculture does. Here’s an article. Key paragraph, bolding mine:
Last I saw the Dem was ahead.
Another Scott
@Schlemazel: A sense of duty is important, and acting on it is very important. I don’t think you’re a fool. ;-) Your service is admirable and commendable.
My dad joined the Navy as a young man (before I was born) because he was about to be drafted. He went to OCS, was commissioned, served his time on active duty (but not in Korea or Vietnam), as well as serving his time in the Reserves afterwards. It was hugely disruptive and a sacrifice because he had no intention of being a “lifer”. He only remarked on it to me once, that “we had The Draft in my day”. It wasn’t something he griped about – it was the way it was and he did his duty without complaint.
OTOH, my mother’s second husband was in the Army in Vietnam – in Supply – yet he would brag decades later about being in The Green Berets and how his life was ruined by all of the horrible things he suffered while in Vietnam. Yeah, he was a pathological liar. :-/
Giving back to the country is great and to be encouraged. But joining the Army isn’t the only way to do so, and doing so doesn’t universally make one a better person. Politicians’ character should be reevaluated constantly, with a heavier weighting towards the here-and-now. Going to a military boarding school or serving in Vietnam doesn’t give anyone a pass for being a monster or punching down. And one isn’t a lesser person for not picking up a rifle or driving a tank or fixing a destroyer or navigating a bomber.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Mary G
@Adam L Silverman: Wow. He slides the knife in so smoothly. Major respect, prime minister.
A Ghost To Most
@raven:
I just recently passed 40 years out. The draft ended the year before I graduated (my half-brother drew a 25, but he was sole survivor exempt). I enlisted to have a shot at college.
raven
@divF: Huh, I was just saying they didn’t call it that but I could be wrong. My unit provided direct commo support to the 9th in the Delta. Here’s me and some of the fellas at Dong Tam!
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
It’s always a shock to discover that someone you thought you knew well is in reality deeply racist and is willing to act on their beliefs if given an opportunity.
I’m not suprised that your friend doesn’t want to talk about it. It’s like finding out that someone you considered a close friend was a secret alcoholic or drug addict the whole time — you wonder how you missed seeing all of the signs that are so obvious to you now that you know the truth.
raven
@divF: Well, here’s one of our orders and, sho nuf, it says “deployed”. I’m so used to saying “shipped out” I forgot!
Baud
@raven:
@Ruckus:
Thank you.
A Ghost To Most
@Ruckus: Sounds great. I did 3 1/2 years in Omaha, but I can’t complain. Met my wife and the Rocky Mountains.,
divF
@raven: I think that you are mostly correct. If “deployment” = unit deployment, during the Vietnam era the patterns of troop movement was mostly not by units – you served a year, and rotated back to the States. Dad was in Vietnam pouring concrete in Long Binh, among other places, during CY 1968.
ETA: your photo brings back a memory of Dad coming in the patio door of our apartment returning from Vietnam, skinny as a rail, in combat fatigues, duffel bag slung over his shoulder.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: Right now Marion Hammer is trying to figure out how to get a medical marijuana prescription for her anxiety while not violating the Federal law that you can’t legally own a firearm if you use marijuana or other drugs classified as illegal under Federal law.
trollhattan
@Yarrow:
Spoiler: Scotland gets first Yahtzee!
Adam L Silverman
@Mary G: He’s got game.
Immanentize
@Mr Stagger Lee: EXCEPT:
Sergeant York (Gary Cooper/ Howard Hawks). Amazing patriotic/conscientious objector turned ace killer in the trenches movie. I really like it, oddly.
raven
@Another Scott: He could have been in supply and been in SF. They got big enough to have non-special forces guys in their TOE. That said there are guys who were in my signal unit who stretch it quite a bit.
Yarrow
@chris: That’s an interesting article. Thanks for highlighting it.
Whataburger! Maybe Beto could help get those guys some burgers.
raven
@A Ghost To Most: I got my undegrad on the bill.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks, Adam.
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: Heh. Nikki Fried winning would be so sweet. She’s still in the lead, right?
raven
@divF: We were HQ’d there and had “installations” all over god’s green acre’s! I drove a deuce and a half on supply runs to those places.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I think he’s embarrassed as a Marine because of a fellow Marine. Just as most of us who are Jewish are angry and embarrassed about Miller and Jared.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Word.
So I grew up in a very working-class area. Lots of my high school classmates enlisted. I would say a full 50% of those people joined because it was guaranteed employment for otherwise unemployable men who wanted to enjoy military hardware. So done with exaltation of the warrior class.
I don’t want to destroy things. I want to build things.
The Lodger
@Yarrow: Crap. The soldiers aren’t getting any off-post leave, are they?
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: I checked the American Legion and the VFW and their twitter feeds didn’t have anything. Their twitter feeds are also no where as active as VoteVets. Nor as political or partisan.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: Yes she is.
Another Scott
@raven: Thanks. There are always corner cases, but that doesn’t apply in his case. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
raven
@Suzanne: If they enlisted during the Nam for a job they were nuts.
Mary G
@chris: Those poor troops. A day at work with nothing to do lasts ten times longer than a busy day.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Suzanne
@raven: I graduated in 1998. They enlisted before and during Afghanistan and Iraq. Like I said, 50% of the people I know who enlisted did so because they couldn’t find or hold down any other job. It is really hard for me to thank them for their service.
Now, the other 50% are another matter.
raven
@Suzanne: got it, for us FTA meant Fuck the Army or Fun Travel and Adventure! Or eat the apple and fuck the corps if you was ajar hed.
chris
For those who may not know the video of Justin talking about bullets and rain is from the commemoration of Dieppe in August 2017. I hope he has a new zinger for today.
Mnemosyne
@Mary G:
IIRC, the current estimate is that the refugees will arrive right around Christmas since they’re traveling on foot. That means that those troops get to sit out in their tents for 6 more weeks and miss two major family holidays just so they can posture and threaten to scare off a group of (mostly) women and children.
For anyone with half a brain, it’s got to be the lamest assignment ever.
Mike in DC
Trump as a soldier: “If you can win the Medal of Honor for throwing yourself on top of a grenade, what can I get for throwing my whole platoon on one?”
chris
@Mary G: The military motto: Hurry up and wait.
Yarrow
@Suzanne: OT, how about your Senate race, huh? Kind of funny that Trump’s unhappy with McSally because she’s not ranting about votes being stolen or election corruption enough.
chris
I guess it’s official, the USA is FUBAR.
Immanentize
Not too far OT — I see Rouda just this afternoon declared victory or Rohrabacher! That is one sweet win!
Caveat: it is not official, but Rouda is ahead by more that 3.5 pts
germy
Has this thread been front-paged?
raven
@chris: No shit, that’s what they do.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: “Nor as political or partisan.”
Ahem.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
Wow, that is beautifully written.
cain
@Another Scott:
If we had the draft, you can bet wars like Iraq would have looked at with much more scrutiny because everyone had something to lose not our volunteer men and women. You can bet everyone is going to make absolutely sure we need to go. If it was all lies you can also bet that shit would have gone down politically.
debbie
So, less than 24 hours after complaining that Macron has insulted the United States, Trump insults the whole of Europe?
I hope Trump is given the lone seat at the children’s table at tonight’s dinner.
germy
@zhena gogolia: The whole thread gives me hope.
germy
@Immanentize: Fortunately Rohrabacher has another source of income.
zhena gogolia
@Adam L Silverman:
It says in the comments that that was in 2017 — he’s not referring to Trump.
Tehanu
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Great minds think alike — I just tweeted the same sentiment over on Twitter — but I think you phrased it better!
Immanentize
@germy: He might be unsettled enough to be communicating in unsecure ways with his handlers as we speak.
By the way, re: Trump — Why do I keep hearing (in my head) Dylan sing: “The sun’s not yellow, it’s chicken!”
Yarrow
@Immanentize: If Rohrabacher is communicating with them he’s desperately trying to convince them he’s still useful to them now that he’s being thrown out of office.
debbie
@raven:
A bunch of vets enrolled at my art school and since I was closer to them age-wise than the freshmen we took classes with, I hung out with them. All great, sweet guys, but lunatics all.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
All of it.
I could have applied for a deferment due to my job, it was listed as a necessary resource or whatever they called it.
But I felt and feel a need to be a part of the greater good, a part of the country, and not just because I live here. I have, over the last 50 yrs become a believer in an even wider coalition of the human race. We have, because of our countries and global politics become an endangered species. Global warming, nuclear warfare, regular warfare, racism, nationalism, 7 billion humans, conservatives, greed……. All of these have generated massive problems, and several have generated self serving reasons not to work together to at least attempt to solve the problems that will affect all animals within the next 50-100 yrs, problems that will take all of us to even attempt to solve. 7 billion people have rendered this a single planet, not a diverse collection of independent nations. There is very limited time to even attempt to solve them, let alone actually affect change. I have no real idea of how to change anything, but do understand that sitting in a bank vault attempting to count one’s wealth with recital-cranial inversion disease won’t get it done.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
MisterForkbeard
@Mnemosyne: This is what’s causing the current family drama. My wife and her father (and her mother to a lesser extent) are currently in the middle of a giant argument and my wife isn’t talking to her parents. My wife finally came to grips with the fact that her dad is wildly racist and it really hurt her. Her dad thinks she’s being completely unreasonable and angry at politics… and punishing him by taking away the grandkids from him.
He’s trying to convince her that she’s wrong. A few days ago he wrote her a long letter about how the “Deep State” and “Liberals, Progressives, Muslims and Mexicans” are ruining the country and how the Republican Party is the only honest group in the country. He’s a lifelong Air Force vet and won’t even trust the military any longer.
The whole thing has been shocking to my wife. She genuinely thought he was a little racist (just didn’t like Mexicans but wouldn’t act on it) and now she finds out that not only is he a true believer, he’s basically been brainwashed. >_<
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Speaking of burn…..
Go John Dingell!!!!
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Anyone having been in the military will understand this.
Have done less for worse reasons.
Dave
@The Lodger: Nope modern army doesn’t work that way. Someone will screw up so everyone has to be treated like a child. So things like this are basically deployments but with less freedom or really the ability to do anything. Makes time drag. Crushes fitness, readiness, and morale.
sukabi
@Mike in DC: ummm no. Drumpf had his chance to be a soldier, and he opted to dodge. That’s his attempt at “soldiering”.
Ruckus
@Dave:
News flash.
The military worked exactly like that in my dad’s dad and in mine. That’s at least 76 yrs.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: Their twitter feeds, not their official organizational positions.
Another Scott
@cain: Don’t be so sure.
The military is much smaller than it was in the Vietnam days (troop strength). People are expensive, and limit capabilities (e.g., human bodies take up space and can only take so many Gs in fighters) so they’re being replaced by smarter systems whenever possible.
Humans can rationalize almost anything (“lock up children in cages before shipping them off for adoption in 21st Century America, sure!!”), and they can rationalize sending young adults off to war at the drop of a hat.
And since the military is smaller, a reinstated draft would have to have many more exclusions and exemptions and so forth, with many more opportunities for the wealthy and well-connected to opt out. (A smaller percentage of the population would be needed.) A smaller percentage of the population would be affected than in the Vietnam days.
Don’t assume that “more skin in the game” is the automatic result, or that it would make a positive difference to insane policy proposals. Nothing is automatic or obvious any more when it comes to American politics. We always have to work for the future we want and not assume that it will just happen.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
J R in WV
@Another Scott:
This!! Quoted for truth!!
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
On Tuesday night, idiot pundits on tee vee were predicting the shellacking would change Drumpf for the better.
Wrong again, Broderites.
Gelfling 545
@guachi: Well, as long as he doesn’t kneel during the nathional anthem ( as if he could!) it’s all good, I guess.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
Well the draft is as it was left in the 70s, just no one is being drafted. So draft is by lottery of birth date. And it’s still males only. And if there was a draft I’d imagine getting a deferment would be just as difficult. Meaning that the wealthy could buy one, or a politician could get a favor or two-strings pulled, etc. But at least it wasn’t every local pols son who was the only one getting a deferment from the local board. Now in the 60s, at least at my draft “physical” none of the urine or blood samples were marked, just collected and put in a cart. The phoniness of the whole thing was obvious to this unwilling participant. Can’t imagine it would be any different today. They needed bodies for a war, Selective Service provides.
lumpkin
>>>bad weather that makes flying Marine One problematic.<<<
Notice how the NYT steno pool repeats an obvious lie without question. I am 100% certain that Marine 1 can safely fly in just about any weather short of a tornado or hurricane.
Ruckus
@Gelfling 545:
Oh he could kneel. As if he would. But the getting back up………
I’m taller than his shittyness and weigh, oh 100-140 lbs less than he does and I don’t kneel either. Because I have to get back up and knees really, really don’t like that. Or help in any way.
Someone said his shittyness is getting even fatter. Well duh, he doesn’t pay for the food……
Tenar Arha
@Adam L Silverman: I’m not embarrassed. I’m furious. They’re vile, & beyond complicit. They are responsible for every death that can be laid at that monstrous walking disaster of a fashionless bag of crap that is our supposed legally elected President.
I blame them because they should’ve known better than to flip rocks, bc that always releases antisemitism. If they died by misadventure or long lingering illnesses the world would be a better place for their deaths, but that’s too easy. May they live long enough lives that they are forced to walk through the world that despises them every day while they’re shunned by society everywhere they go. Preferably after a stint in prison where the white supremacists have treated them like shit on their shoes.
(& yes I’m salty AF today too; must be something in the wind even here in Massachusetts).
ETA yep I noticed you said angry, I’m gone beyond that now.
Yarrow
An old tweet:
Windy and wet conditions. Hmmm….
Another Scott
@Ruckus: Thanks.
I got curious, and found this at the FTFNYT: What it was like to be drafted:
It’s a good read.
1.8/28 = 6.4% of the total eligible male population. I assume the percentage would be even lower these days.
From reading the Selective Service web site on the Draft (which seemingly hasn’t been updated since at least 2012), there are fewer exceptions and exemptions built-in to the law these days (e.g. college deferment to the end of the current semester, unless it’s your final year in which case they’ll let you graduate), but it’s a human system and lawyers are clever, so those with means will find ways not to be inducted.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
RobertB
@opiejeanne: After a business trip my wife visited Paris. Where did she eat? Subway. But I love her anyway.
Hob
@Another Scott: Besides what you said, the other reason I’ve never understood the “if we had a draft, like we did in the Vietnam War, people wouldn’t let the government fight so many pointless wars” argument is that… I mean, the Vietnam War still happened! We were drafting people into it for nearly ten years! Yes, there was public opposition which helped to bring it to an end, but not before an insane amount of damage was done.
SFAW
@Ruckus:
So his BMI is now up to 26? I seem to remember Ronny Jackson telling us that Shitgibbon was the thinnest, trimmest preznit since William Howard Taft.
Hob
@Hob: I mean, I guess you could argue that people now would be more savvy and would demand that the justification be more solid than it was for Vietnam, because they remember Vietnam. But I think that might be a bit optimistic.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@opiejeanne: The upscale burgers at McDonald’s here are pretty good too, I’d not set foot in their establishment since I gave up drinking but we picked up some grub there when Madame, the kid, and I went to Red Rock for Milky Way photography.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
I had an acquaintance, 2-3 yrs older cousin of a buddy, who got his notice in 67. Went in, boot camp, army language school in CO, they liked the results of his training and kept him on for his tour. Almost 2 yrs in CO teaching. I know others that said the same thing, I’ll take my chances. Some of them didn’t come back standing. Over the years of Vietnam I understand that about 5 million men and women served in the military during that time and over half a million served in country. It was not the deadliest war ever, it was not the stupidest war ever, it was one of the most worthless in terms of why and what was accomplished. I see the effects of it every time I go to the VA. It was my generations war. I say that like every generation or so has to have one, for reasons that boggle the mind. Some people in power seem to think that they have to prove how manly they are, by having other men die. Never understood how that works, maybe I’m not a manly man. But then I remember that I gave up 4 yrs of my life, with a risk that I would have to go to war, and a lot of the people who want war never did. And a lot of people I know were involved in the fighting of my generation, and none of them seem to understand why either. Some say they do, but all they have are platitudes.
Ruckus
@SFAW:
Hint – He fucking lied. He should lose his medical license for malpractice.
But you know that.
Another Scott
@Ruckus: Military.com:
I assume the investigation is still on-going as I haven’t been able to find anything since then.
Of course, Donnie was wrong again – Sen. Tester was re-elected.
Cheers,
Scott.