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You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / On the 11th Hour of the 11th Day of the 11th Month of 1918 World War I Did Not Come to an End

On the 11th Hour of the 11th Day of the 11th Month of 1918 World War I Did Not Come to an End

by Adam L Silverman|  November 11, 201810:49 pm| 106 Comments

This post is in: 2020 Elections, America, Domestic Politics, Election 2016, Election 2018, Foreign Affairs, Military, Open Threads, Politics, Popular Culture, Post-racial America, Silverman on Security, War, All Too Normal

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(Satwinder Sehmi’s Calligraphy: In Flander’s Field)

As Veteran’s Day 2018 comes to a close, and with it the commemorations for the 100th anniversary of the end of World War I, it is important to remember that World War I did not actually end on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918. While it is true that the armistice was signed and peace talks would soon begin, World War I did not stop on November 11, 2018. Rather, and more accurately, it transformed into a series of low intensity conflicts that would simmer until reigniting into World War II. At the heart of those conflicts was a war of ideas. One of these ideas was national identity. Specifically, how ethno-national minorities that were left behind the lines, so to speak, when the armistice was signed would relate to the governments they now lived under, their ethno-national majority neighbors, and how those governments and those neighbors would relate to them. Out of these tense, taut, and often violent relationships between ethno-national majorities and minorities in post World War I Europe would grow other even more dangerous ideas such as fascism, in its corporatist, nationalist-syndicalist, and racist forms. Even, to a certain extent, Leninism, was unable to escape the nationalist tensions that resulted from the way World War I never really ended.

The great power competition that had led to World War I was changed by these clash of ideas – nationalism, fascism, communism – and, as a result, World War II and the Cold War were as much wars of ideas and ideology as they were wars of conquest and for territory. These ideas were about how to better organize state and society. And they placed the ideas of liberty and liberal democracy in all of its various types in direct conflict with the totalitarian ideas of fascism on the extreme right and communism on the extreme left. And just as different forms of liberal democracy would develop, so to would different variations of fascism and communism. These clash of ideas, of how states, societies, and even the global system should best be structured, would lead to both World War II, a long Cold War, the Korean and Vietnam Wars, and a number of conflicts fought by the proxies of the two post World War II superpowers. to a certain extent they are also an undercurrent in the US’s seeming forever war against terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq.

As 2018 moves towards 2019, the world is once again faced with a war of ideas. The ideas of well ordered liberty and its expression in the different types of liberal democracy are once again facing off against totalitarian ideas from both state and non-state actors. Vladimir Putin challenges the US and its EU and NATO allies and partners with his promotion of managed democracy as a façade for the kleptocratic organized crime state he has created in Russia. Xi Xinping, recently declared as President for Life, promotes his fusion of Maoism, state controlled capitalism, and Chinese nationalism through his Belt and Road Initiative. ISIS continues to promote an extreme version of tawheed, the Islamic theological understanding of the unity of the Deity, which includes violently imposing its doctrine on believers and unbelievers alike. 

The War to End all Wars did not do so because it could not do so. Nor did World War II. Now has any other war. So while we recognize and commemorate the 100th anniversary of the armistice that ended World War I, we need to be realistic about what we face both within and without the United States. We need to remain vigilant in order to ensure that well ordered liberty prevails in this 21st century war of ideas.

Open thread.

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106Comments

  1. 1.

    AThornton

    November 11, 2018 at 10:56 pm

    It’s a good question when World War I actually ended. There’s a good argument it only & finally stopped on May 8, 1945.

  2. 2.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 11, 2018 at 11:02 pm

    @AThornton: Maybe it never ended, we’re still dealing with the ramifications of the borders that were drawn post WWI.

  3. 3.

    Yarrow

    November 11, 2018 at 11:03 pm

    Posted in previous thread, but probably more appropriate here.

    Danny Boyle (director) created this Pages of the Sea project to commemorate the WWI centenary. There’s loads more in the 14-18 NOW Twitter feed but here’s a good tweet with a video showing the sand art. Very moving.

    Today, we said a collective goodbye to those who left their shores during #WW1 and never came back. Here’s what happened during #PagesOfTheSea – a day which took place on 32 beaches across the UK and Ireland: https://t.co/9aWWbAaM9X— 14-18 NOW (@1418NOW) November 11, 2018

  4. 4.

    debbie

    November 11, 2018 at 11:06 pm

    Such a fucking waste.

  5. 5.

    AThornton

    November 11, 2018 at 11:07 pm

    I’m not going to argue. It takes a long, long, time for all of the ramifications from a major war to work its way through history.

    Heck, we’re still dealing with the fallout from our Civil War as those Ku Klux Klan sieg heilers in Georgia recently proved.

  6. 6.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    November 11, 2018 at 11:10 pm

    @AThornton: @?BillinGlendaleCA:
    This is my layman oversimplification (and probably super reductionist view) of human history and the human condition as I understand it: there has always been an conflict between the forces of oppression and equality and there likely always will be as long as eyes can see and men can breathe, at least until the human condition is radically altered from what we currently are. I call it the Eternal Battle. History for the most part has also been one long battle for supremacy and survival and you could say the desire for equality and survival is obviously intersectional. We have to completely move past the desire to dominate others and work together to survive and build a better future.

  7. 7.

    TaMara (HFG)

    November 11, 2018 at 11:15 pm

    Last year on this day, at 11:11, I stepped out of the Metro in Paris and into a cemetery just as the bells rang. It was chilly with a light drizzle and I will never forget it.

  8. 8.

    Yarrow

    November 11, 2018 at 11:16 pm

    Just finished watching the fifth episode of David Eagleman’s “The Brain” series. It’s titled “Why Do I Need You” and looks at how our brains need and use input from others. It takes a bit of a dark turn in the second half looking at how genocide happens. He studied what the brain does to allow that to happen since he’s a neuroscientist. He talks about propaganda as the tool that plugs into neural networks to get people to dehumanize others. It’s a really moving episode.

    Here’s a link to a bit of the episode. Link. There are more videos from the episode below this one. The “Massacre of Srebrenica” section is very moving.

  9. 9.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 11, 2018 at 11:22 pm

    @AThornton: A European Civil War that both sides lost, and the outsiders (the USA and the USSR) won.

    I was in Paris on 11 November in 1980. I witnessed Jacques Chirac, then the Mayor of Paris, place a wreath at the Arc de Triomphe. A somber occasion, to be sure, but still, to see a politician who would go on to become the President of the Republic was something of a thrill.

  10. 10.

    AThornton

    November 11, 2018 at 11:24 pm

    For me the problem is our brains are limited in the number of people which with we can maintain reasonable social relationships. The anthropologist Robin Dunbar put the number at 150, or 123 to 230 with a confidence factor of 95%. People have criticized the numbers but nobody qualified to speak has rejected the notion there is a number and its not very big. Get past the number, our brains break down, the frontal lobes cease to function in social mode, and we start breaking people into Us, Them, and Those People Over There.

  11. 11.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 11, 2018 at 11:24 pm

    @Yarrow: Part of military basic training is to wear down, as much as possible, the resistance to “Do not kill”. Dehumanizing the enemy (the hun, the gook, the haji, the untermensch) is part of that process.

  12. 12.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 11, 2018 at 11:25 pm

    @AThornton: Military command structure is based on how many other humans one human can supervise or direct, which tops out for most at five.

  13. 13.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 11, 2018 at 11:26 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Much of the current fuckery in the Middle East can be attributed to the flawed peace of Versailles.

  14. 14.

    debbie

    November 11, 2018 at 11:30 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Over the years, I’ve seen a number of news reports of how villagers welcomed, thanked, and celebrated veterans who visited years after their service. As time went on, the next generations were no less respectful or grateful to visiting veterans. It was really very moving.

  15. 15.

    rikyrah

    November 11, 2018 at 11:37 pm

    Natalie Kitroeff (@Nataliekitro) Tweeted:
    7-Eleven is getting ICE to raid stores so that corporate can take control away from franchise owners. Unbelievable story

    https://t.co/ikYwpnpybc https://twitter.com/Nataliekitro/status/1061695306121781248?s=17

  16. 16.

    Amir Khalid

    November 11, 2018 at 11:37 pm

    World War I never involved Asia or Africa or Latin America, did it? So how did it come to be called a world war?

  17. 17.

    Ruckus

    November 11, 2018 at 11:38 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    Having worked in machine shops for most of the last 55 yrs, I can say with reasonableness that it’s 6 employees. I’ve seen who were great with 6, try more and it’s always failed. At my last job I had about 100 part time people under me, supervised by 5 people. I didn’t even know the names of all of those 100 and saw most of them for less than 20 hrs a year, with about 30 of them I’d see for may 200 hrs, over several events. Supervise them, no, can’t be done, not successfully, not at those numbers. And now at the end, I can sort of supervise one at a time, if I’m supposed to get anything else done. And they are good people, it’s not them.

  18. 18.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 11, 2018 at 11:39 pm

    @Amir Khalid:
    Germany had colonies in Africa? That’s actually a really good question…

  19. 19.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    November 11, 2018 at 11:39 pm

    I guess I shouldn’t feel too shocked that we’re fighting fascism all over again. As many have brought up above, this fight between freedom and oppression will likely always go on. It disheartens me though that it’s only been 70-75 years since we beat the shit out of the nazis, and now we’re dealing with them in our own fucking country. I don’t even know how to put into words the sadness, anger and disgust I feel about that.

  20. 20.

    H.E.Wolf

    November 11, 2018 at 11:41 pm

    Here’s the entry for that date, in my great-great-grandmother’s diary:

    NOVEMBER 11, 1918.

    Monday. Pleasant – The Fire Alarm bell rang about 10 minutes past 4 this morning – telling that the War was over – It was signed at 5 o’clock French Time this morning. Hostilities ceased at 6 A.M. Washington time or 11 A.M. French Time today. A fine procession this P.M. Thanksgiving service at our church –

  21. 21.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    November 11, 2018 at 11:42 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Japan fought with the allies. Lots of European countries had colonies in Asia and Africa. It’s an oversimplification, but in a lot of ways, it was a stupid war over real estate. Europe was running out of countries to colonize, so they began fighting over what they already held.

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 11, 2018 at 11:42 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Actually there were significant numbers of soldiers from the subcontinent and other Southeast Asian parts of the British Empire who fought in World War I. And there were an entire series of campaigns in North Africa and the Middle East. A lot of Muslims, from a variety of countries, fought in World War I and often go unremarked.

  23. 23.

    Ruckus

    November 11, 2018 at 11:42 pm

    @Amir Khalid:
    The people that made up the titles thought the world revolved around them.
    There were many countries that saw no fighting in WW2 either. But of course a lot more countries were involved even if they didn’t see actual combat on their shores than in WW1.

  24. 24.

    Amir Khalid

    November 11, 2018 at 11:43 pm

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
    Did they draft African soldiers to fight in the war?

  25. 25.

    jl

    November 11, 2018 at 11:46 pm

    @Amir Khalid: I don’t know about Latin America, but there were Middle-Eastern, Asian-Pacific and African theaters in WWI. The forces and slaughter were tiny compared to Europe, and few battles, many marches and counter marches of forces trying to find each other, But the stakes were big, because there were large and profitable German and Allied colonies up for grabs.

    Edit: and remember that Ottoman Empire was in on the war, allied with Austrian-Hungarian, and German,Empires.

  26. 26.

    Geoboy

    November 11, 2018 at 11:47 pm

    @AThornton: I think it was the British historian John Keegan who said that World War II was actually the last battle of World War I.

  27. 27.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 11, 2018 at 11:48 pm

    @Ruckus:
    I got to supervise 7 people last Wednesday as a Team Leader for my clinical. It was a lot like being a charge nurse for a ward at a hospital. I had to get report from all of the RNs/LPNs/CNAs on the 7 residents we collectively had and relay that info to my fellow students, schedule lunch breaks, identify residents on our unit/wing that needed blood glucose checks and get their sliding insulin scales if applicable (I had to go with the blood glucose team (2 student nurses in my group) and aid them), and finally make sure all AM care was documented in the computer system. By the end I was pretty exhausted. It was totally worth it though and I enjoyed it. I didn’t think I’d want to be a leader but once I got started it came fairly easily.

  28. 28.

    hellslittlestangel

    November 11, 2018 at 11:52 pm

    I’ve never understood the whole 11th hour of the 11th day bit. Did they think that would be cute? I guess, considering the folly and stupidity behind the war, that’s possible.

  29. 29.

    John Revolta

    November 11, 2018 at 11:53 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Why do they call it the World Series? Anyway, they didn’t call it World War I until later. It was The Great War.

  30. 30.

    Amir Khalid

    November 11, 2018 at 11:54 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    @Adam L Silverman:
    Japan aside, the Asians and Africans in the Great War were fighting not in their own nations’ cause, but at the behest of colonial powers.

  31. 31.

    Zelma

    November 11, 2018 at 11:55 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    It really was a world war, even if not on the scale of WWII. Japan had an alliance with Britain after 1902 and declared war in 1914. It seized the German holdings in China and a number of islands that Germany had claimed. Turkey was a member of the Central Powers and there were campaigns in the Middle East that were quite destabilizing and brought the Ottoman Empire to an end. There was considerable fighting in Africa of a particular brutal sort. And as noted above, the European powers drafted manpower from their imperial holdings. The French had a significant number of Africans on the Western Front and the British used Indian troops both in Europe and the Middle East. In some ways, these experiences fostered nationalism. So yes, it was clearly a world war.

  32. 32.

    hellslittlestangel

    November 11, 2018 at 11:55 pm

    @Amir Khalid: They didn’t want to come right out and call it White World War.

  33. 33.

    dmsilev

    November 11, 2018 at 11:56 pm

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Sure it did. Google “The Scramble For Africa” if you want a capsule summary of how the European powers chopped up the continent, but Germany had a few colonies. Wikipedia has a convenient list:

    German East Africa (Deutsch-Ostafrika):
    Tanganyika. In 1922 became a League of Nations mandate under the United Kingdom. In 1961 became independent and in 1964 joined with former British protectorate of the sultanate of Zanzibar to form present-day Tanzania
    Ruanda-Urundi (1885–1917) – present-day Rwanda and Burundi after Belgian mandate period
    Wituland (1885–1890) – since 1890 in Kenya
    Kionga Triangle – since 1920 (earlier occupied) in Portuguese Mozambique
    German South West Africa (Deutsch-Südwestafrika) – present-day Namibia (except then-British Walvis Bay) and part of Botswana (Südrand des Caprivi-Zipfels)
    German West Africa (Deutsch-Westafrika) – existed as one unit only for two or three years, then split into two colonies due to distances:
    Kamerun (1884–1914) – after World War I, separated into
    a British part, Cameroons, later split in half, with one part joining Nigeria and the other becoming part of modern Cameroon. (Kamerun, Nigeria-Ostteil, Tschad-Südwestteil, Zentralafrikanische Republik-Westteil, Republik Kongo-Nordostteil, Gabun-Nordteil)
    a French Cameroun, which became present Cameroon.
    Togoland (1884–1914) – after World War I it separated into two :
    a British part (Ghana-Westteil), which joined Ghana
    a French part, which became Togo republic, because of the Treaty of Versailles in World War 1

  34. 34.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 11, 2018 at 11:57 pm

    @Amir Khalid: I never said they weren’t.

  35. 35.

    cain

    November 11, 2018 at 11:58 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    World War I never involved Asia or Africa or Latin America, did it? So how did it come to be called a world war?

    White people man, it’s all about them! :D Also, I believe the British were involved so they probably dragged the colonies with them.

  36. 36.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 12:02 am

    Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post. My only quibble is

    ” Xi Xinping, recently declared as President for Life, promotes his fusion of Maoism, state controlled capitalism, and Chinese nationalism through his Belt and Road Initiative. ”

    Not sure how all that has transformed China is ‘through the Belt and Road Initiative.” The Belt and Road Initiative seems very separable from China deciding to ditch parts of Commnunism that got in the way of rapid industrialization, and become state-crony quasi-capitalist, supposedly until they got ‘enough’ (whatever that is, and whenever that could conceivably happen) capital accumulation. And their version of lifetime soft dictatorship just seems to be a reversion to the norm of Communist political systems.

    I don’t see how the Belt and Road thing is all that different from aggressive US and Soviet Union development programs for lower income countries during the Cold War. Or the goal of it all that different from long standing US Treasury and US trade policies and programs, except the US outsources more of it to private activity on financial and commodity markets.

    But I agree with the main ideas completely. We are drifting back to authoritarian mindset, both left and right political versions, around the world. I think the post-WWII economic world order laying a big fat dump on economic progress and rising living standards ever since the Great Recession of 2007-2009 has a lot to do with it in Europe and Americas. But I don’t think that explains all of it by a long shot.

  37. 37.

    H.E.Wolf

    November 12, 2018 at 12:03 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    World War I never involved Asia or Africa or Latin America, did it? So how did it come to be called a world war?

    There are bound to be a number of folks on the blog who know their WWI history better than I do… but from my limited knowledge:

    Australia participated (Gallipoli, etc).

    Barbara Tuchman’s wonderful short book, The Zimmerman Telegram, details some of the mischief Japan got up to, which played a part in the USA’s entry into the war.

    India sent soldiers to the Western front. (Source: my memory, which is fallible.)

    China and Algeria sent workers/troops. (Source: “A WWI Diary: Sgt. Edgar Britton, US Army” published by his granddaughter.)

    Yes: Germany – among other European countries – had a military/governmental presence in Africa (the movie “The African Queen” is set in that era, and the English characters played by Katharine Hepburn and Robert Morley would have been considered enemy aliens by the Germans.

    Off the top of my head, I don’t know whether South American countries were involved. There were certainly European colonial connections there.

    As others have noted, more people died from influenza and other diseases during WWI than died in battle. My great-great-grandmother noted in her diary that their family Auto [sic] was commandeered as an ambulance, and their local church was set up as a hospital ward, during the flu epidemic.) Get yer flu shots!

  38. 38.

    r€nato

    November 12, 2018 at 12:03 am

    @AThornton: The more one studies history, the more one realizes it’s a continuum rarely with neat start and end dates.

    I have read – and I would agree – that much of the 20th century was consumed with the conflict Adam describes, and it didn’t end on May 8, 1945 (NB: WW2 didn’t actually end until September of that year); the conflict that began in 1914 did not truly end until around 1989-91 when the Berlin Wall was dismantled, the Warsaw Pact nations declared independence, and eventually the Soviet Union disintegrated.

  39. 39.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:04 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    "Forgotten Muslim soldiers of World War One 'silence' far right" https://t.co/ivFnb2pNj2 Remember all these stories. Don't rewrite history, by leaving them out.

    — Dr H.A. Hellyer (@hahellyer) November 11, 2018

  40. 40.

    B.B.A.

    November 12, 2018 at 12:04 am

    May I just point out that Woodrow Wilson was a despicable white supremacist, probably the worst president of the 20th century (by far the worst Democrat), and his decision to involve the United States in the Great War made the entire world worse off in ways we’re still recovering from today?

    No? Carry on then.

  41. 41.

    Librarian

    November 12, 2018 at 12:06 am

    @Zelma: The British attacked Turkey from Egypt up through Palestine (the front that Lawrence of Arabia was on) and through Iraq from the Persian Gulf. In 1915, they tried to open up a front on the Gallipoli peninsula on the Black Sea Straits, but failed.

  42. 42.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 12:08 am

    @H.E.Wolf: Lawrence of Arabia, was in WWI. Lot’s of derring-do (or is it daring-do? I forget and am too lazy to look it up) on Arabian Peninsula during WWI.

  43. 43.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:11 am

    @jl: That part is influenced by a friend and former colleague’s, an old China hand as they say in the business, recent article. His research and conclusions are partially based on work he did during his recent research fellowship in China. Unfortunately there isn’t anything to link to as its a dead tree journal.

  44. 44.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 12:11 am

    @r€nato: Maybe future historians (should we have a future) will call it the 80-years war?

  45. 45.

    Librarian

    November 12, 2018 at 12:11 am

    The major African fighting was in Tanganyika, which was a German colony. That was where the movie the African Queen was set.

  46. 46.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 12, 2018 at 12:11 am

    @B.B.A.:
    Imagine if Theodore Roosevelt had won in 1912 and was president during WW1. As bad as Wilson was, I believe Roosevelt would have been worse

  47. 47.

    Corner Stone

    November 12, 2018 at 12:13 am

    While it is true that the armistice was signed and peace talks would soon begin, World War I did not stop on November 11, 2018.

    Let’s fuck up some Kaiser shit!

  48. 48.

    cain

    November 12, 2018 at 12:19 am

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:

    Imagine if Theodore Roosevelt had won in 1912 and was president during WW1. As bad as Wilson was, I believe Roosevelt would have been worse

    Not sure.. he probably would have died himself as he lead the troops himself. Much as I liked Teddy and think he is a total badass. He was a crazy warmonger.

  49. 49.

    cain

    November 12, 2018 at 12:20 am

    @Corner Stone:

    Let’s fuck up some Kaiser shit!

    We have always been at war with Germany!

  50. 50.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 12:20 am

    @Adam L Silverman: Hells bells man, I can get to dead tree journals. I’ll check back if you have a reference. I am probably ignorant of how China is shaping it for geopolitical ends. And part of it aims at bringing SE Asia closer into Chinese sphere of influence. Probably some of my Vietnamese, Thai, and Cambodian contacts would consider it a Chinese nationalistic threat.

    But in and of itself, I don’t see it as an important part of the move towards authoritarian nationalism. Simply as an economic program,as a road to domination, it seems as self-defeating in the long run as US policies to encourage development around the world (which we also have put to nationalistic purposes, even if it considered bad taste to admit to ourselves). And I don’t see any reason to believe that other large countries are any better at figuring out what the unintended consequences of their clever schemes will be than we are. Russia and China can have longer range consistent planning horizon that we do, but that is another issue.

  51. 51.

    Tenar Arha

    November 12, 2018 at 12:21 am

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Out of these tense, taught, and often violent relationships…

    Did you mean taut or taught? Bc both work in that sentence, but I believe the “taught” may be a typo bc of the lovely phrasing & sentence structure.

  52. 52.

    gene108

    November 12, 2018 at 12:22 am

    @H.E.Wolf:

    India sent soldiers to the Western front. (Source: my memory, which is fallible.)

    India sent soldiers. India also helped bankroll the British war effort, with the hopes of gaining Dominion status – like Canada, Australia, etc. – for being good members of the Empire.

    Britain responded with a big Fuck You to India and the push for independence was born.

  53. 53.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 12, 2018 at 12:22 am

    @cain:
    We are all Eastasians, now.

  54. 54.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 12:24 am

    @Tenar Arha: fraught?

  55. 55.

    Emma

    November 12, 2018 at 12:26 am

    @B.B.A.: Non sequitur? Nobody seems to be admiring anything or anyone.

  56. 56.

    Origuy

    November 12, 2018 at 12:27 am

    David Olosuga, a Nigerian-British historian, made a three-part series called The World’s War, about the Indian, African, Asian, and African-American soldiers and others who fought in WWI. I think it’s still on Netflix.

  57. 57.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:28 am

    @B.B.A.: I did a whole post on that.

  58. 58.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 12, 2018 at 12:28 am

    @Emma:
    “Mister, we could use a man like Woodrow Wilson again”, said no one ever.

  59. 59.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:29 am

    @Tenar Arha: Typo. I’ll fix it.

  60. 60.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 12, 2018 at 12:29 am

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Does it address Theodore Roosevelt winning in 1912 and the consequences that would have on WW1? //

  61. 61.

    The Dangerman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:30 am

    More geopolitical, economic, racial, theological, et al, considerations in this single thread than Trump, personally, has made in his entire Administration. Sigh.

    I’m far too tired to contribute much, but seems like Economics really drives just about everything. In the US, it’s currently the stress of Rural vs. Urban, which has a racial component, too, as well as theological and …

    …too deep of thought. Mind blown.

  62. 62.

    gene108

    November 12, 2018 at 12:32 am

    @r€nato:

    the conflict that began in 1914 did not truly end until around 1989-91 when the Berlin Wall was dismantled, the Warsaw Pact nations declared independence, and eventually the Soviet Union disintegrated.

    Yugoslavia was created via the Treaty of Versailles. Fighting there carried on throughout the 1990’s.

    Some speculate the current violence in the Middle East are result of arbitrarily carving up the remains of the Ottoman Empire between Britain and France, into geographic areas that do not match the ethnicity of the people contained in the political boundaries

  63. 63.

    Yarrow

    November 12, 2018 at 12:32 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    The first shot fired by British forces in the First World War was fired by an African soldier in Africa. Historian @DavidOlusoga presents three @1418NOW art commissions highlighting the often overlooked role of African soldiers https://t.co/EXN5oqy5jV— History Hit? (@HistoryHit) November 11, 2018

  64. 64.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:33 am

    @jl: That entire paragraph is excerpted and adapted from my forthcoming article on Psychological Operations and the 21st Century Operating Environment. The Belt and Road initiative has a PSYOP effect component built in. It is intended to normalize, among the PRC’s neighbors, as well as partners, though many of them are really more like clients, that the PRC is an acceptable partner/patron and potential regional hegemon despite the nature of it’s political, social, and economic system. Basically part of the Belt and Road initiative is to socialize how China is organized as acceptable in order to dispel distrust of the PRC.

  65. 65.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:34 am

    @jl: Taught, like a tiger…//

  66. 66.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:36 am

    @The Dangerman: I’m about ready for bed too!

  67. 67.

    smike

    November 12, 2018 at 12:36 am

    @debbie:
    While stationed in Germany (late sixties) I experienced the same thing. Particularly in Belgium while on a public relations gig. Elderly gentlemen, probably veterans, were very kind to us. Strangely, the beer served at quarters sucked.

  68. 68.

    NotMax

    November 12, 2018 at 12:37 am

    @Librarian

    Fascinating documentary, The Real African queen on Amazon Prime. About the Graf Goetzen, the IRL ship, which was built in Germany, disassembled and shipped like a gargantuan jigsaw puzzler to Africa. It still is afloat today and is the oldest still in service passenger ship in the world.

    @AThornton

    Excellent, excellent history mimi-series on Amazon Prime, Impossible Peace, which plays on that point. trailer

  69. 69.

    Corner Stone

    November 12, 2018 at 12:37 am

    @The Dangerman:

    I’m far too tired to contribute much, but seems like Economics really drives just about everything.

    What? It’s only like 9:30 on the Left Coast. And you know what the military strategists all say, “War is a used car sales negotiation continued by other means.”
    “Floor mats? Now you want fucking floor mats thrown in the deal?!”

  70. 70.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    November 12, 2018 at 12:39 am

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I’m not sure if I’ve asked you, specifically, this before but does the PRC have any interest in spreading it’s ideology through regime change or soft power means in your opinion, which could include the West?

  71. 71.

    Corner Stone

    November 12, 2018 at 12:43 am

    @gene108:

    Some speculate the current violence in the Middle East are result of arbitrarily carving up the remains of the Ottoman Empire between Britain and France, into geographic areas that do not match the ethnicity of the people contained in the political boundaries

    That region or peoples or however you like to regard it have been at war for a thousand years. If anyone thinks they were going to play nice with any boundary I have a bunch of paper towels I can toss at them.

  72. 72.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 12, 2018 at 12:48 am

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: My understanding is no, but I am probably not the right person to ask.

  73. 73.

    NotMax

    November 12, 2018 at 12:53 am

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    China has been engaging in and ramping up a not directly political but rather primarily economic takeover of parts of Africa for pretty much all of the 21st century.

  74. 74.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 12:56 am

    @Corner Stone: ” I have a bunch of paper towels I can toss at them.”

    I try to respect that BJ Blog has a strict commenter anonymity policy, but if you are going to just yell out your real identity, nothing I can do about it.

    So, how come you couldn’t make the memorial service with Angie and Manny on Saturday? Was the rain that bad? How was the big Frenchy dinner? Did it come with fries and the most beautiful chocolate cake you’ve ever seen?

  75. 75.

    Chetan Murthy

    November 12, 2018 at 12:56 am

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I’m not an expert in any of this, but over at LG&M, there’s been some discussion about China exporting “governance advisors” to its clients, teaching them to do things their way, as a way of strengthening the client-hegemon relationship. But I don’t really know more than what I just wrote.

  76. 76.

    NotMax

    November 12, 2018 at 1:01 am

    @jl

    Dolt 45 probably still fuming that there was no ketchup.

  77. 77.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 1:02 am

    @NotMax: I suppose some geopolitical stategery people can worry about that. As an economist, I don’t see a problem if the deals benefit both parties.

    So, far I don’t see how it is much different from history of US economic development policies. Except China is smart enough to ramp up programs like that, while the US foolishly neglects them. If the US is too screwed up and dysfunctional to invest in economic growth and alliances with low income countries, that is really not China’s problem. But I guess if we just sit here not doing jack shit, everyone should just sit there and not do jack shit.

    Edit: last part of that comments not aimed at you, and not implying anything about your opinion. Just me muttering in general about the US being more screwed up and dysfunctional now compared to recent history.

  78. 78.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 1:06 am

    @NotMax: Jeez, give the guy a chance to respond, will you? You got some kind of Corner Stone (Trump) derangement syndrome?

  79. 79.

    NotMax

    November 12, 2018 at 1:07 am

    @jl

    The major bugaboo, as I understand it, is that while the projects (perhaps not all, but the bulk of them) may have merit, the use of local labor is minuscule.

    Different situation, but China is now the second largest grower of tomatoes on the planet. Flooded the market so much that African farmers who used to make a decent living growing tomatoes cannot compete, and many of them now seek low paid work in tomato processing plants in Italy, separated from their land and their families.

  80. 80.

    NotMax

    November 12, 2018 at 1:09 am

    @jl

    Gave a full five minutes, which is four and a half minutes longer than Dolt 45’s attention span.

    :)

  81. 81.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 1:09 am

    @NotMax: ” at while the projects (perhaps not all, but the bulk of them) may have merit, the use of local labor is minuscule. ”

    Sounds more and more like US aid gimmicks.

    If the tomato story is true, it is sad, but that is not some economic process that is unique to China.

  82. 82.

    oatler.

    November 12, 2018 at 1:11 am

    There’s a wonderful John Crowley story called “The Great Work of Time” that involves a group of time-travelling British Empire loyalists trying to prevent WWI from happening, with increasingly tragic results.

  83. 83.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 1:14 am

    I guess I’d prefer economic and geopolitical problems China is currently giving the world, to those of Russia.
    I just can’t get worked up much over China as an economic or geopolitical threat, aside from military issues, which I don’t know much about. Send me an alarm when China is fixing to invade or militarily coerce it’s neighbors (leaving aside Tibet for the moment) that seriously affects our national security.

    I think issues like China and Taiwan can be managed with competent leadership (so we need to pray for the next two years). Russia and Ukraine, or Baltic States, I’m not so sure.

  84. 84.

    H.E.Wolf

    November 12, 2018 at 1:17 am

    @jl:

    Lawrence of Arabia, was in WWI. Lot’s of derring-do (or is it daring-do? I forget and am too lazy to look it up) on Arabian Peninsula during WWI.

    I’d forgotten all about T.E. Lawrence! Thank you for remembering.
    It’s “derring-do”. From Middle English “durran (durren) don”, “daring to do”.

    @gene108:

    India sent soldiers. […]

    Thanks for the additional information.

  85. 85.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 12, 2018 at 1:23 am

    @jl:

    Send me an alarm when China is fixing to invade or militarily coerce it’s neighbors (leaving aside Tibet for the moment) that seriously affects our national security.

    Vietnam and India would like a word with you, jl.

    ETA: The Republic of Korea might want to chime in as well.

  86. 86.

    PJ

    November 12, 2018 at 1:23 am

    @Amir Khalid: The Ottoman Empire included territory in Europe and Asia (Asia Minor, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, Arabia) where fighting took place, and there was fighting between the Germans and British in Africa.

  87. 87.

    PJ

    November 12, 2018 at 1:27 am

    @B.B.A.: You might prefer a world dominated by Imperial Germany, but I think you’d be in the minority.

  88. 88.

    PJ

    November 12, 2018 at 1:30 am

    @gene108: If you think divvying up countries by ethnicities is going to bring peace, the latter part of the 21st Century, with the mass migration that is sure to come with global warming, will be a shock to you. If people can’t learn to live with and not oppress ethnic minorities, we are doomed to war forever.

  89. 89.

    PJ

    November 12, 2018 at 1:33 am

    @Corner Stone: Western Europe had been at war since the collapse of the Roman Empire, but has managed to not do that since 1945, so it seems like something is working.

  90. 90.

    Cermet

    November 12, 2018 at 1:41 am

    What is happening already in the world is the start of massive AGW effects, Vast areas of the equatorial belt of the world will, in far too short of time, become uninhabitable for human life. We are starting to see these effects in the Middle to far east already. North Africa is suffering also from climate change from high temps reducing soil moisture and related droughts. When a few billion (read that carefully – billions) dirt poor people are displaced and do realize this will be occurring during the worst of all this AGW, that liquid oil sources will be mostly unavailable due to extraction costs; also, keep in mind that large stretches of currently arable areas that produce a great deal of food (today) will be gone, and one then does not need a crystal ball to know what this all means. All this comes into full force within fifty years. Ocean rise? LOL, what a joke. Compared to what the temps of over 100 F 24/7 for a few weeks a year will do to billions of people – since no human can survive those temps without AC, the ocean rise, even if it becomes 3 or 4 meters in 100 years is nothing.

    We had a window of opportunity to do right and thanks to the stupidity of the deplorable s – as the elite exploited their fears and racist hatreds to gain gold (i.e. extraction of carbon from the ground) what I said is almost, now, certain to come to pass. Your young children are fucked as well as your future grand kids. This terrible event is coming and far too few take it serious enough to warn everyone. This fate should be THE topic of AGW but it isn’t. Tragic and we will pay a price – or should I say your children. They will be deeply involved in a real, global war and billions will suffer and possibly the death toll will dwarf WW I & II.

  91. 91.

    NotMax

    November 12, 2018 at 1:41 am

    @PJ

    So far as Western Europe is concerned, people tend to forget that Germany (and Italy for that matter) were the new kids on the block when it came to unification as single state entities by the time of WW1.

  92. 92.

    jl

    November 12, 2018 at 1:52 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: All of those issues been going on for a while. I was talking about stuff related to new move towards authoritarian nationalism.

    Anyway, why aren’t you reading up on the effect of the Little Hoover Commission in saving the California Constitution from falling into complete incoherent chaos?

  93. 93.

    Ladyraxterinok

    November 12, 2018 at 1:53 am

    @Amir Khalid: IIRC the French did. They left black soldiers in the Rhine areas the French held after the war. Hitler used this info to help him rile up the Germans–‘The blacks are coming for German women!!’

  94. 94.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 12, 2018 at 2:12 am

    @jl:

    Anyway, why aren’t you reading up on the effect of the Little Hoover Commission in saving the California Constitution from falling into complete incoherent chaos?

    The Constitution is a lost cause and has been for years, anyway I’ve got a BJ-OTR to work on.

  95. 95.

    Amir Khalid

    November 12, 2018 at 2:14 am

    Thanks to all who set right on non-European involvement in WWI. It still seems to me that this was primarily a fight over European regional rivalries, which non-Europeans came into as allies of belligerent powers or as conscripts from the colonies.

  96. 96.

    Ladyraxterinok

    November 12, 2018 at 2:22 am

    @Cermet: My son (49) has been saying that since his grad from college. A major reason he has chosen to have no children. He says none of his friends want to think or talk about it. Have to admit, it’s not a fun topic.

  97. 97.

    frosty

    November 12, 2018 at 2:38 am

    @AThornton: And our Civil War was based on the English Civil War of the Roundheads (New England) and the Cavaliers (Virginia aristocracy). We’re still fighting it.

  98. 98.

    prostratedragon

    November 12, 2018 at 3:14 am

    @Origuy: An article by Olusoga in this weekend’s Guardian

  99. 99.

    prostratedragon

    November 12, 2018 at 3:18 am

    @Origuy: An article by Olusoga in this weekend’s Guardian

    Also I heard that the main commemoration Sunday included a tribute to the French African colonial soldiers by Angelique Kidjo among others.

  100. 100.

    opiejeanne

    November 12, 2018 at 3:33 am

    @Amir Khalid: Four years ago I was in Paris There were huge photos displayed all over the city, many of them from the German Occupation during WWII.

    We walked along the Champs Elysees, and for a long way there were these enlarged photos of troops from Africa and India in Europe fighting alongside the French troops during WWI. I think China and Latin America were non-participants, and the foreign troops were possibly from countries that had not yet been freed from their colonial rule.

    ETA: I see I was wrong about China and the rest of Asia.

  101. 101.

    Mike in Pasadena

    November 12, 2018 at 4:12 am

    @TaMara (HFG): I am in Rome right now and will walk to the Vatican in a few minutes. We can all remember that religions have played and continue to play a major role in fomenting and prolonging wars. Religions probably always will since man must have beliefs to tell him who and what he is and why.

  102. 102.

    J R in WV

    November 12, 2018 at 5:17 am

    @Corner Stone:

    That region or peoples or however you like to regard it have been at war for a thousand years.

    More like 6-7000 years of war. Pre-Bibllical times.

  103. 103.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 12, 2018 at 10:21 am

    @Amir Khalid: It was a war between Empires, aspiring ones and entrenched ones. The entrenched ones like Britain and France had subjects that spanned the globe. So it was a World War in that sense. Of course, the war dead who were subjects are barely mentioned.
    Even in the recent WWII movie, Dunkirk, soldiers from the British Indian Army (who were evacuated) were erased.

  104. 104.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 12, 2018 at 10:24 am

    @Corner Stone: @J R in WV: Are you guys asserting that Sykes-Picot have nothing to contribute with the current tensions in the Middle East? There were tensions but “western civilization” made the existing tensions worse by several orders of magnitude by their “benevolent” meddling.

  105. 105.

    aznfg

    November 12, 2018 at 11:57 am

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/a-good-book-for-this-centenary This book recommendation seems relevant to this topic.

  106. 106.

    Jay C

    November 12, 2018 at 1:29 pm

    @aznfg:

    Thanks, and also to Adam for recommending The Vanquished: it’s a pointed reminder that “Peace” did not sudden descend on “Europe” on 11/11/18: bloody, often (if not exclusively) large-scale conflicts went on in Continental Europe for a couple more years, and in the Middle East until 1923.

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