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You are here: Home / Politics / America / A Quick Note on the Most Recent Kerfuffle Between the President and Admiral McRaven

A Quick Note on the Most Recent Kerfuffle Between the President and Admiral McRaven

by Adam L Silverman|  November 19, 201811:44 pm| 70 Comments

This post is in: America, Domestic Politics, Election 2016, Election 2020, Foreign Affairs, Military, Open Threads, Politics, Popular Culture, Post-racial America, Silverman on Security, Not Normal

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The President has decided to once again get into a public kerfuffle concerning Admiral (ret) William McRaven. This has, of course, led to a lot of retired senior officers, as well as former senior civilian appointees, to come to Admiral McRaven’s defense and to call out the President regarding his remarks. I think it is important that we step back a bit and try to understand what we are actually observing with this ongoing series of rebukes of the President by retired senior officers and civilian appointees. This is not some bizarre new era of partisanship or political polarization. Rather, what is happening, why these retired senior officials – uniformed and civilian – keep speaking up has to specifically do with this President, how he communicates, what he communicates, his behavior, and the official actions he’s taking.

Almost all of these officials either spent their careers with no partisan affiliation because they were serving in the US military or were senior civilian officials appointed by Republican presidents because they were considered to be part of the Republican/conservative national security and foreign policy establishment. We’ve even reached the point when a group of prominent conservative lawyers, many of whom have held senior appointments in previous Republican administration, have decided to make a very public break with this administration and its Federalist Society allies, which is separate from the pushback regarding Admiral McRaven. While what we’re seeing is unprecedented in modern American political history, it is not surprising. Each of these retired senior officials that are speaking up are doing so because in their professional estimation the President is something completely outside of the norms of American politics. And, as a result, they are forced to themselves do something outside of the norms by publicly speaking out. That failing to do so would mean they were failing in their professional responsibilities even in retirement.

Earlier today COL (ret) Jack Jacobs, who is both a Medal of Honor awardee and a self described political conservative, was interviewed by Nicole Wallace about the President’s most recent dustup about Admiral McRaven. The clip is below and it is well worth the four or five minutes of your time.

"[Adm. McRaven] …somebody who’s a patriot and not only is a patriot, but spent his entire career raising another generation of patriots…castigating somebody like that demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how the world actually works"- @ColJackJacobs w/ @NicolleDWallace pic.twitter.com/1EdfdDDbgK

— Deadline White House (@DeadlineWH) November 19, 2018

I can honestly state that I was not expecting a reference to Rabbi Hillel in his response to Wallace’s question!

Open thread!

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Reader Interactions

70Comments

  1. 1.

    different-church-lady

    November 19, 2018 at 11:54 pm

    Trump managed to make his base hate football. He’ll probably have them hating the military before it’s over.

  2. 2.

    Cheryl Rofer

    November 19, 2018 at 11:55 pm

    It’s important that former military officers keep saying how wrong Trump’s attempts to politicize the military are.

  3. 3.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 19, 2018 at 11:56 pm

    @different-church-lady: Yep.

  4. 4.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 19, 2018 at 11:56 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: Also yep!

  5. 5.

    debbie

    November 19, 2018 at 11:57 pm

    Thank you, Adam. I hope critics of the Trump staff members who are military hear that last minute or so.

  6. 6.

    JGabriel

    November 20, 2018 at 12:01 am

    different-church-lady:

    Trump managed to make his base hate football. He’ll probably have them hating the military before it’s over.

    I’m imaging Putin as Heath Ledger playing the Joker, saying, “It’s all part of the plan.”

  7. 7.

    trollhattan

    November 20, 2018 at 12:05 am

    @different-church-lady:
    Except the Cowboys. Jerry Jones is so dreamy.

  8. 8.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 12:05 am

    @debbie: He didn’t quite get the quote from Hillel right, but we don’t promote people to colonel because of their in depth knowledge of ancient rabbinical thought. I texted this to a colleague, who is himself a retired colonel, shortly after I saw the Jacobs’ interview on MSNBC:

    I just watched COL (ret) Jack Jacobs quote Rabbi Hillel on MSNBC in regard to SecDef Mattis. I do believe the 7th Seal of the Apocalypse has just been broken!!!

  9. 9.

    eemom

    November 20, 2018 at 12:18 am

    I really wish the media bots would STFU with the “this time he’s gone TOO FAR”, “this time he’s REALLY come unglued”, “THIS is the WORST crisis yet”, “No really, we’re talking serious MELTDOWN here” headlines.

    Not saying the public isn’t stupid as shit, but they’re not Groundhog Day.

  10. 10.

    Yarrow

    November 20, 2018 at 12:19 am

    Each of these retired senior officials that are speaking up are doing so because in their professional estimation the President is something completely outside of the norms of American politics. And, as a result, they are forced to themselves do something outside of the norms by publicly speaking out.

    Norms are being destroyed all over the place by the horrors in the White House and their Republican enablers. We will need to put laws in place after this mess is over because norms clearly aren’t good enough.

    That being said, there is a lot of danger in running a government by norms. Trump and his cronies are just taking advantage of weak spots in our government and democracy. A norm is weak because it only works if everyone agrees to follow it. Someone doesn’t follow it and what recourse is there? There’s no law against what they’re doing. We’ve just expected that people will behave in a certain way. That’s a dangerous way to run things.

  11. 11.

    Mary G

    November 20, 2018 at 12:20 am

    That almost makes me rethink my policy of never watching cable news. A very nice exchange, with no shouting or spinning.

  12. 12.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    November 20, 2018 at 12:24 am

    What I can’t understand is why people stick with this guy when he’s made it as clear as he can that he can’t even control himself when it’s in his own fucking interest to. Do Republicans really think that bad mouthing the guy who oversaw killing bin Laden is a good plan? This asshole picks fights with really sympathetic people. War heroes, people whose children have been killed… I can’t even remember all of the people he’s taken on. Who will it be next? Snuggly puppies? Adorable babies?

    This is a guy who can’t do the right thing when it isn’t only easy, it would fucking help him politically. What is it going to take to get Republicans to pull the plug on this guy? I mean, I can understand people like Looey Göehmert or somebody like that who has primaries to worry about; but why are people from iffy states and districts sticking with this clown? How does this help Susan Collins?

  13. 13.

    johnnybuck

    November 20, 2018 at 12:27 am

    It’s just that white people have lost they damn minds. GOP won’t check this guy cause white people can’t process what they have done. double down all the way down.

  14. 14.

    danielx

    November 20, 2018 at 12:29 am

    @different-church-lady:

    Trump managed to make his base hate football. He’ll probably have them hating the military before it’s over.

    He’s a salesman, and hate is what he sells.

  15. 15.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    November 20, 2018 at 12:29 am

    Shit. I mean, when you get to choose between coming down on the side of a family that lost somebody fighting in a war for the U.S. or on the side of nazis, who the fuck is going to throw in with the nazis? I can’t even believe we have to ask this about the president of the United States, but, well, we don’t any longer, ’cause he’s already shown us whose side he’s on. And they stick with him anyway.

  16. 16.

    johnnybuck

    November 20, 2018 at 12:30 am

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): better than Hillary..

  17. 17.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 12:31 am

    @different-church-lady: Ahh, hell, the people of this country are tired of being pushed around by the liberal Democrat military. It’s just gone on for way too long.

    This Jacobs guy has the nerve to talk about McRaven and his entire career. Trump taking everything personally has served him very well for his entire career of sleazy real estate deals and a wide range of dishonest swindles and scams from ruthless to dingbat. And now Trump is putting that unique life experience over his whole life to the service of this country.

    Lemme tell ya. /s

  18. 18.

    Mary G

    November 20, 2018 at 12:34 am

    This made it even worse:

    Worth noting after recent comments: Retired Adm. William McRaven was reportedly on Hillary Clinton’s short list for Vice President in 2016. He’s been critical of President @realDonaldTrump— even dating back to the 2016 campaign. He’s hardly a non-political figure.— GOP (@GOP) November 19, 2018

    The whole party has fallen in line, and even though I knew how authoritarian-loving Republicans are, it still shocks me how few Never-Trumpers there are. David Frum went out early over healthcare. Tom Nichols and Rick Wilson and Max Boot and who else? Not many.

  19. 19.

    Manyakitty

    November 20, 2018 at 12:35 am

    @Mary G: I find that often on Nicolle Wallace’s show. She and Steve Schmidt even acknowledged their roles in the current situation. She’s disgusted by the lies, and generally tolerates less crap from her guests than almost every other MSNBC host.

  20. 20.

    SFAW

    November 20, 2018 at 12:36 am

    @Yarrow:

    A norm is weak because it only works if everyone agrees to follow it. Someone doesn’t follow it and what recourse is there? There’s no law against what they’re doing.

    Not really disagreeing with your point, but the “practical application” is, shall we say, problematic. Meaning: it is more-or-less impossible to pass a set of laws to deal with the trashing of democracy, government, and “political norms” that we’ve seen Shitgibbon do. Even with a Congress where both parties are trying to preserve the so-called “American ideal,” rather than having one party trying to destroy it, it would be difficult (in a practical sense). Because there’s no behavior too insane for Lying Littledick to restrain himself from doing; every major transgression you try to control, he’ll always find another way to fuck over this country, so how do you get “ahead of the curve”?

  21. 21.

    Ruckus

    November 20, 2018 at 12:36 am

    @Yarrow:
    Exactly.
    When you have people who are trying to destroy something, expecting them to behave to norms is a fools game.
    And laws? Their leader has ignored laws that he’s been able to buy his way out of for most of his life. And now thinks that he creates the laws, and so can do whatever the hell he wants. I’d bet that if you really asked all these military and retired military officers that is more what they are complaining about. The military has some pretty strict rules in the UCMJ and they take all of it very seriously. Along with that there are norms and traditions that can only be changed with obvious and overwhelming evidence that it needs to happen. That is their lives, careers, this very structured concepts of what is and what isn’t. drumpf just runs those concepts over because he doesn’t give a shit. And not giving a shit is a massive hit to these officers. They don’t understand someone in a position of authority who doesn’t give a shit like he does. There’s no formula for them that computes this. What the Col talked about. that teaching those behind them the respect, the duty, the way things work, drumpf has just dropped his shorts and shit all over that. Their entire careers everything they believe of the military and of duty made a complete mockery of.

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 12:38 am

    @Mary G: Especially as there is no indication he was even ever asked about this by the Clinton campaign and he was on the original Trump transition short list to be the National Security Advisor until LTG Flynn told Ivanka he wanted it when she asked him what position he wanted after they interrupted a meeting on the transition that Christie was running.

  23. 23.

    SFAW

    November 20, 2018 at 12:39 am

    @Mary G:

    Do we know if that’s even close to true? That McRaven was on Hillary’s “short list.” I don’t remember hearing that, but my ability to recall that stuff is questionable at best.

    I’m assuming this is another case of “George Soros helped the Nazis” bullshit.

    ETA: So I did a quick google, and it appears that he actually was under consideration. It also appears that the Rethugs have hated him, and called him a Hillary lover, since 2015.

  24. 24.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 12:39 am

    @Manyakitty: I get the impression she puts people who misbehave in time out. It’s why Heilman behaves himself on her show…

  25. 25.

    Manyakitty

    November 20, 2018 at 12:39 am

    @Adam L Silverman: And he LIKES it.

  26. 26.

    Ruckus

    November 20, 2018 at 12:44 am

    @SFAW:
    We have to better define the office, the limits, and that no president is above the law, during or after their time in office. We need to define the rules of the senate and the house as well but that’s not as germane to the topic under discussion. We have to find a way to limit the just inactive manner shit for brains runs the WH and the presidency. We have to have a far more uniform and fair election system (paper ballots -hard records) early voting and run by non partisan offices. For a start.

  27. 27.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 12:47 am

    @SFAW: I actually think it was Gen (ret) Allen, who is the retired Marine 4 star that led all the veterans out during the convention. He had previously served, post retirement, as the Special Envoy for Middle East Peace (Israeli-Palestinian Peace Process) and then the Special Envoy for the International Coalition Against ISIS. I fully expected that if Secretary Clinton had been elected that he would have been named to be Secretary of State.

    Full disclosure; Gen (ret) Allen, when he was the Special Envoy for Middle East Peace, was technically my boss, or, more accurately, my co-boss. I directly reported to the Commanding General of US Army Europe, but the orders that laid out my authorizations, duties, and responsibilities, as well as the funding for the assignment, were issued by the Special Envoy’s office.

  28. 28.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 12:48 am

    @SFAW: Politicians put a lot of people on long, or medium, or short lists for this and that for a campaign. How thoroughly was the short list given serious vetting? Did McRaven express any interest, if so, what was the degree? How long was the goddamned ‘short list’? Was McRaven on the list as a serious candidate or as a signal to some interest group or other possible VPs?

    That info would be of some historical interest.

    But the whole thing is BS, as I think the GOP BS tweet demonstrates. I think most people outside the Trumpster hard core bubble will the bad faith in their argument, right there in plain English. Putting someone’s name on a list, without any other information, doesn’t make them a particularly ‘political’ figure.

    If the GOP keeps up this crap, I think it will make big wins in 2020 much easier.

  29. 29.

    Wapiti

    November 20, 2018 at 12:49 am

    @Yarrow:

    Trump and his cronies are just taking advantage of weak spots in our government and democracy. A norm is weak because it only works if everyone agrees to follow it. Someone doesn’t follow it and what recourse is there? There’s no law against what they’re doing.

    If the President doesn’t follow the law and his tame DoJ radically reinterprets the law… There *was* an antinepotism law in place, and presidents from Nixon to Obama were held to it. If the DoJ chooses to not enforce a law, yeah, there isn’t much recourse. But that’s because an entire political party had decided to corrupt the system, not just one guy named Donald.

  30. 30.

    Sister Golden Bear

    November 20, 2018 at 12:55 am

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    I mean, when you get to choose between coming down on the side of a family that lost somebody fighting in a war for the U.S. or on the side of nazis, who the fuck is going to throw in with the nazis?

    27 percent of the U.S. population…

  31. 31.

    JGabriel

    November 20, 2018 at 12:55 am

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Do Republicans really think that bad mouthing the guy who oversaw killing bin Laden is a good plan?

    They’ve been doing that since President Obama announced that bin Laden was dead. It’s only a short skip and a hop to add anyone else in the chain of command that led to bin Laden’s death, like Admiral McRaven, to the list of people who should be bad-mouthed because they weren’t sufficiently disloyal to Trump’s predecessors.

  32. 32.

    trollhattan

    November 20, 2018 at 1:05 am

    I think our CO alarm committed suicide. It was yelling, but why? We’re going to die? You’re dusty? You need a new battery? You want to go outside? No matter what I tried after a nice reset and rest it would yell again and the tiny display would read “END.” Sure enough, the 2 pt type instructions instruct if it reads END, “replace unit.”

    Reminded me of period French film that ended with ‘Fin.” Why did you do it, CO alarm? You were so young (not even five years). {sadface]

    Did you know Tommy Chong has a Twitter account? Me neither.

  33. 33.

    Wag

    November 20, 2018 at 1:07 am

    @Yarrow:

    Norms being broken is nothing new with the GOP. Mitch McConnell has led the way in the Senate with his treatment of Obama.

  34. 34.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 1:11 am

    @JGabriel: You attack the other side’s strengths. In the past, considerable discernment was considered advisable in determining which strengths to attack. But now, well heck, just plaster the whole wall with poop and see what happens, I guess.

    It is a problem when you think your base is larger than it really is, and when you think it will much easier to suppress the turnout of the opposition than it will actually be. If the GOP had any alternative to this approach, they should start taking it right now. But they have no alternative.

  35. 35.

    JGabriel

    November 20, 2018 at 1:15 am

    @SFAW:

    Do we know if that’s even close to true? That McRaven was on Hillary’s “short list.”

    I have no idea, I don’t remember either. But the important thing is:

    It doesn’t matter even if it is true.

    The GOP is clearly bringing it up because McRaven was on Trump’s/Christie’s short list for a national security position. In other words, it’s just more Republican deflection via What-About-ism.

  36. 36.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 1:17 am

    @Manyakitty: Everybody has their own kink…

  37. 37.

    fedupwithhypocrisy

    November 20, 2018 at 1:18 am

    @different-church-lady: and lovin’ the Russians

  38. 38.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 1:19 am

    @jl: Admiral McRaven had, by that time, been diagnosed with an adult form of leukemia. It is why he retired as Chancellor of the University of Texas System earlier than had been expected. He retired into a faculty position where he teaches while he is undergoing treatment. While his illness was covered a bit at the time of his retirement as chancellor, it has not gotten a lot of national coverage and is generally not discussed much. My guess is that even if he had otherwise been interested, he would likely have declined because of the cancer.

  39. 39.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 20, 2018 at 1:20 am

    @trollhattan: Condolences.

  40. 40.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 1:21 am

    @trollhattan: My sincerest condolences?//

  41. 41.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 1:24 am

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks for information. I forgot McRaven had leukemia.
    There are many reasons why a politician running for office might put some names on a list. Fanatical devotion, or even particular interest of each and every person on the list in what the politician wants often doesn’t have much to do with it.

  42. 42.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 20, 2018 at 1:30 am

    @jl: My guess is she and her advisors were batting around retired officers who had demonstrated both competence as Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines and also demonstrated excellent administrative skills and abilities. Admiral McRaven had been widely praised as the SOCOM commanding admiral, which, given just how hosed up SOCOM is as a command, is something to take note of. And he was also widely praised for his work running the University of Texas system. So it would make sense to have him on that list. Even if it went no further than that. And my understanding is it went no further than that. If I’m recalling correctly Admiral (ret) Stavridis, who is both the former EUCOM commanding admiral and Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) and the dean of the Fletcher School of Tufts was on the potential VP list.

  43. 43.

    Aleta

    November 20, 2018 at 1:30 am

    @JGabriel: I bet Trump also hates him because he wrote a public letter addressed to Trump after he revoked Brennan’s security clearance, dramatically undercutting Trump’s act and insulting him to boot.

  44. 44.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 1:35 am

    @Adam L Silverman: ” Stavridis, who is both the former EUCOM commanding admiral and Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) and the dean of the Fletcher School of Tufts was on the potential VP list.”

    Well that just shows the the military is lousy with Deep State liberal Democrats. How much of the military is run off of Soros money? Don’t hear that discussed much. Every wonder why?

    /s

  45. 45.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 1:40 am

    And yes, since everyone asked, I am practicing my carefully thought out positions and opinions for future Trump rallies. Best way I can snag a network interview, get on a TV machine focus group, or get a profile in the NYT. I’ll be famous for 15 minutes one way or the other.

    I’m thinking some kind of Trump-themed body paint might be a good gimmick to get attention. What should the color scheme be?

  46. 46.

    JGabriel

    November 20, 2018 at 1:42 am

    @jl:

    I’m thinking some kind of Trump-themed body paint might be a good gimmick to get attention. What should the color scheme be?

    Tar and feathers.

  47. 47.

    Aleta

    November 20, 2018 at 1:45 am

    Zinke repeatedly said radical environmentalists were responsible for the destruction caused by the fires.

    “It’s not time for finger-pointing,” Zinke said. “We know the problem. It’s been years of neglect, and in many cases it’s been these radical environmentalists that want nature to take its course.…You know what? This is on them.”
    …
    Trump had threatened to withdraw federal funding from California, erroneously blaming poor forest management for the fires.

    Experts agree that overgrown forests in California pose a heightened wildfire threat in some parts of the Sierra Nevada. But although Paradise is near forestland, the wind-whipped Camp fire tore across areas that burned in lightning fires in 2008 and were later logged. It was not fueled by heavy timber.

  48. 48.

    jl

    November 20, 2018 at 1:58 am

    @JGabriel: I don’t think you understand my plan. But thanks.

  49. 49.

    JGabriel

    November 20, 2018 at 2:03 am

    @jl: You said Trump-themed. That’s the theme, the color-scheme, I want to see on Trump.

    (Edited to add: Also, c’mon, seriously, what did you expect when gave us a such a perfect setup line?)

  50. 50.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 20, 2018 at 2:03 am

    @jl: Body paint? Weak. You need to go for an orange “T” tat.

  51. 51.

    Chetan Murthy

    November 20, 2018 at 2:07 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: *giggle* clearly, orange spray-tan.

  52. 52.

    smike

    November 20, 2018 at 2:09 am

    @jl:

    What should the color scheme be?

    Duh, bloated orange, of course.

  53. 53.

    sm*t cl*de

    November 20, 2018 at 2:11 am

    @smike:
    With a yellow belly.

  54. 54.

    Mary G

    November 20, 2018 at 2:11 am

    WaPo “breaking news” – Twitler has lost in court again over asylum for immigrants:

    HOUSTON — A federal judge barred the Trump administration on Monday from refusing asylum to immigrants who cross the southern border illegally.

    U.S. District Judge Jon S. Tigar issued a temporary restraining order after hearing arguments in San Francisco. The request was made by the American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights, which quickly sued after President Donald Trump issued the ban this month in response to the caravans of migrants that have started to arrive at the U.S.-Mexico border.

    Whitaker is probably camped out at the Supreme Court so he can get it overruled immediately.

  55. 55.

    Mnemosyne

    November 20, 2018 at 2:19 am

    @Aleta:

    “It’s not time for finger-pointing,” Zinke said, “which is why I’m waving my ass instead.”

    There. Fixed.

  56. 56.

    hitchhiker

    November 20, 2018 at 2:24 am

    Since we’re open-threading, have any of you caught up with Maddow’s little history podcast about Spiro Agnew?

    It’s good.

    Agnew, it turns out, was corrupt AF … had been taking bribes for years in his various jobs in MD. He kept right on doing it inside the White House, and was caught by a few eager prosecutors working a different case. Agnew was an early version of Trump, eager to trash the press for daring to criticize him & wildly popular with the Republican base.

    The prosecutors brought their airtight case to the AG in 1973, just as it was becoming clear that Nixon would probably not last much longer. They were then forced to watch as Agnew was allowed to resign and plead no contest to a minor tax evasion charge. No indictment. No trial. No jail. Because Agnew’s strategy was to deny and throw mud at everyone and everything, and he had a lot of popular support, there was a good chance he’d survive an impeachment process.

    Which would have meant he’d be president. Unthinkable. So they made him/let him quit.

    Seriously, it’s a very high quality listen. Bag Man.

  57. 57.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 20, 2018 at 2:32 am

    @hitchhiker: Agnew was pretty much known as Nixon’s insurance policy. Nobody wanted a President Agnew. Once he was gone, Nixon’s impeachment was more possible.

  58. 58.

    wasabi gasp

    November 20, 2018 at 2:33 am

    kerfuffle?

    Shit-flinging psychopathic ape busting through zoo gates and attacking keepers has become a bit of a to-do.

  59. 59.

    Honus

    November 20, 2018 at 2:48 am

    @JGabriel: in 2004 they ridiculed a guy who was awarded three purple hearts for the benefit of guy who spent the same war pretty much AWOL in Alabama and Texas. And won.

  60. 60.

    Vhh

    November 20, 2018 at 3:03 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: and that is why Pence’s actuvities are of interest. He was picked by Manafort, oversaw the transition, and picked Flynn.

  61. 61.

    Platonailedit

    November 20, 2018 at 3:06 am

    An important question are the military and security establishments, which have always favored republicans over dems without any sound or valid reasoning, still willing to continue to skew towards rethugs, considering how corrupt and collusive they have become with the totus thug even after he has gone.

  62. 62.

    opiejeanne

    November 20, 2018 at 3:40 am

    @hitchhiker: Who could forget “nattering nabobs of negativity”? It just tripped off the tongue and we laughed.

    I was a Republican (I was young, I have learned) and I hated Agnew.

  63. 63.

    Robert Sneddon

    November 20, 2018 at 4:43 am

    @Platonailedit: Another important question is why any US Democratic administration has to have any ex-military officers at all in high positions? It’s kind of scary being from a civilian-run country like Britain to note the number of people-in-charge in the US whose first names are “General” and “Admiral”.

    If you want to wean yourself off the military being in charge you could start by, say, appointing ex-sergeants and Other Ranks to those positions rather than officers but it’s your decision.

  64. 64.

    Cermet

    November 20, 2018 at 4:49 am

    In the amerikan military hierarchy, there is no greater level of power nor influence then Admirals. The orange fart cloud is crossing a line that will bite him like none other in the military establishment – this was just stupid.

  65. 65.

    NobodySpecial

    November 20, 2018 at 5:18 am

    Yeah, well, for all this great talk now that one of their own is under fire, these guys helped bring us to this point. From the Dominionist fucks in the Air Force who wanted a holy war, to the genteel neo-Confederates who have overrun the upper ranks of the other branches, this is what they wanted. I don’t want to hear them squawk now. I want sackcloth and ashes for a season, and then they can all go away.
    They’ll turn back to insanity the moment they think they’re in the clear.

  66. 66.

    oclday

    November 20, 2018 at 7:45 am

    @Honus:
    Yes, indeed. The Republicans tested this ratfucking out when they swiftboated Kerry. John McCain as I remember was the only Republican to make any type of statement against it. This isn’t new for Republicans its just more out in the open and wide spread.

  67. 67.

    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues

    November 20, 2018 at 8:44 am

    Adam, I love the posts that you do here. There is one thing that you can hopefully shed some light on, and that is this: how do we make a persuasive case for not disbelieving/disregarding people if they’re democrats or liberals. The problem I have with a lot of the support for Adm. McRaven (and let me be perfectly clear, this is not his fault in the least), is that people begin their defense of him by saying, “In reality, he is not a democrat, and he wasn’t really offered a job by Sec. Clinton”. This may or may not be true, but it implicitly makes the argument that McRaven’s criticisms would be illegitimate if he WERE a democrat, or if he WERE offered a job by Sec. Clinton.

    This is a serious problem, for a couple of reasons.

    First, as mentioned above, it tends to marginalize an entire set of people who are right in their denunciation of Trump, but are not Republicans. I freely admit that it isn’t clear (to me at least) how to construct a more effective argument for these kinds of folks, which includes almost everyone on this blog, and all the rest of the not-27%.

    Second, this argument also moves the range of accepted and “correct” opinions far to the right – the well-known Overton Window effect.

    Third, there will come a time when the democrats regain the presidency. One hopes that that happy event occurs in the next election, and that it coincides not only with control of the house of representatives, but also the senate. This is of critical importance because the incalculable damage done by Trump and the entire GOP needs to be remedied as soon as possible: it is not advisable to wait until the cancer is well established to begin treatment. This recent election was the first operation in limiting (if not excising) this malignancy. However, the problem with framing of the argument as so many have done is that it decreases the chances of not only electing more democrats, but also restricts the parameters under which they operate. And so you end up with this clusterfuck of idiots opposing Pelosi without a clear idea of how to proceed without her, and also (as Josh Marshall at TPM has pointed out), forcing the hand of many many representatives who are in vulnerable districts.

    Lastly, I have a deep and visceral dislike of Nicole Wallace. I well remember her work for George W. Bush, who is saved from being at the bottom of the presidential heap only by the natural evolution of Republican politics and policies into the ugliness of Trump. I also remember the disgusting attacks that Bush45 and his team leveled against a man who fought bravely in Vietnam, when he didn’t really have to go. It is my personal mandate to have an abiding mistrust for everything Ms. Wallace says and does, because I do not sense that this is coming from a place of either honor or patriotism. I can stomach, and sometimes even admire Steve Schmidt (I don’t think he worked for W), but not Ms. Wallace.

    This argument of course is not new. Many others have pointed this out, including JGabriel above. It is important I think that we discuss how to effectively communicate the message that McRaven (and others like him) are right when they criticize the president, not because they’re not democrats, but because their argument is legitimate and accurate for its merits.

  68. 68.

    Uncle Cosmo

    November 20, 2018 at 1:48 pm

    @hitchhiker: IIRC the idea of allowing Agnew to plead nolo in exchange for resigning as VPOTUS was that of George Beall, the USA for MD (& scion of one of the few authentic GOP political families of the state), whose office developed the case. But I could be wrong; it’s been a long while since I last looked at my copy of A Heartbeat Away, Beall’s book on the subject. I shall check his recollection once I dig it out of the chaos that is my domicile.

  69. 69.

    artem1s

    November 20, 2018 at 2:23 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    This is a guy who can’t do the right thing when it isn’t only easy, it would fucking help him politically.

    Yea, but it perfectly fits the profile of a malignant narcissist. Or if you prefer one of the basic laws of the stupid.

    A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.

    It is what they are.

  70. 70.

    Uncle Cosmo

    November 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo: Aaand I recollected incorrectly (& just lost this entire post because of my FUCKING PC!!).

    The idea of Agnew pleading nolo in exchange for resigning the office of VPOTUS (& a recommendation from DoJ that he serve no jail time) was floated by one of his lawyers, Judah H. Best, to Attorney General Elliot Richardson in a meeting early on 13 Sep 1973. Of the four prosecutors from the US Attorney’s office in Baltimore who were involved,

    none … greeted the news of plea bargaining with unrestrained glee. They … would prefer getting an indictment against Agnew, bringing him to trial, and, if convicted, sending him to jail.

    Meeting with them that afternoon, RIchardson noted that

    the government would have to pay a price to get Agnew out quickly, and no one should think otherwise…. The overwhelming requirements … were that there be swift resolution of the matter, that the outcome be just, and that it be so perceived.

    Quotes from Cohen, Richard M., and Jules Witcover, A Heartbeat Away: The investigation and Resignation of Vice President Spiro T. Agnew (New York: Viking, 1974), page 224 … which I had also misremembered as authored by Beall (or more likely his designated ghostwriter).

    All you young’uns out there should keep in mind that Elliot Richardson was one of the good guys in the GOP at that time – he refused Nixon’s order to fire Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox & was the first of 3 firings that constituted the “Saturday Night Massacre” (William Ruckleshaus, deputy USAG, likewise refused & was sacked; Robert Bork, who took over at DoJ, then canned Cox.) A subsequently popular bumpersnicker of the time:

    IMPEACH THE COX-SACKER

    They didn’t mean Bork, kids. :^D

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