These STASI motherfuckers need to go to jail:
The White House late Tuesday signed a memo allowing troops stationed at the border to engage in some law enforcement roles and use lethal force, if necessary — a move that legal experts have cautioned may run afoul of the Posse Comitatus Act.
The new “Cabinet order” was signed by White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, not President Donald Trump. It allows “Department of Defense military personnel” to “perform those military protective activities that the Secretary of Defense determines are reasonably necessary” to protect border agents, including “a show or use of force (including lethal force, where necessary), crowd control, temporary detention. and cursory search.”
There are approximately 5,900 active-duty troops and 2,100 National Guard forces deployed to the U.S.-Mexico border.
Some of those activities, including crowd control and detention, may run into potential conflict with the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act. If crossed, the erosion of the act’s limitations could represent a fundamental shift in the way the U.S. military is used, legal experts said.
WTF is a cabinet order for military force?
Cheryl Rofer
I hate to mention it again, but the first line of defense, the body tasked with oversight of such things, is Congress. But I haven’t seen anything from the majority party about the disasters of the last week or so, not even to assure us that everything is fine.
TenguPhule
Starscream.
Adam, what say you?
TenguPhule
Donald Trump shits on norms, laws and regulations and dares anyone to hold him accountable.
The Dangerman
Not worth the toilet paper it is printed on, but it probably got a rise out of Trump (as soon as he heard posse).
Adam L Silverman
Unless its a fancy name for a directly ordered by the President memorandum of understanding between two or more Federal agencies delineating how they will work together, I have no idea. Whatever it is that Kelly signed, it is both illegal and well outside of his authority.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Cheryl Rofer:
Fascist fucks like Mark Meadows see nothing wrong with this and others that may have are retiring/have been booted from office. The rest are a crazy right-wing rump.
This is clearly a violation of American law, which is why I think Kelly signed the order and not Trump
TenguPhule
We all know exactly what Trump thinks about the church state divide. Now we know that Kelly thinks the same about Posse Comitatus.
Mary G
@Cheryl Rofer: Bob Corker and Rand Paul furrowed their brows, I am sure. Isn’t this unconstitutional six ways from Sunday? I need to up my contribution to the ACLU again.
It is the ultimate gall for Kelly to sign the thing. That’s just a big fat fuck you to the nation and rule of law.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@TenguPhule:
House Dems: “Mission accepted”
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Problem is, are the troops on the ground going to follow them anyway? I don’t see any of the officers at the border risking their careers to make a statement.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@TenguPhule:
Did these same officials confirm that the fucking WH COS had the authority to order this?
Judge Crater
Trump just should have had Ivanka sign the order.
And Kelly is just a dumbass Jarhead. Sorry Marines.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Kourtney Kube just reported, based on a recent interview with Secretary Mattis, that these authorizations were already in place for several weeks. And that they are actually established Rules of Engagement for self defense.
That makes little more sense than what was reported in Military Times.
David Hunt
Like the prime movers of the Bush Admin, it looks like the important cogs of the Trump Era will need to be very careful about which countries they visit after the whole shebang is over.
TenguPhule
@Judge Crater:
They’re not sending their best people.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
So they’ve just been actively breaking the law for weeks instead of just now?
Cheryl Rofer
Kelly is freaked out about the brown hordes assaulting the border. Wasn’t it originally his idea to separate parents from children as a deterrent?
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Trump said they can shoot people throwing rocks. There’s your order.
[I hope y’all know I am being sarcastic.]
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Ask me no questions and I’ll tell you no lies.
I cannot comment on this for reasons.
JGabriel
Military Times:
John Cole @ Top:
Good question.
A few other good questions for Kelly would be:
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Why yes, yes it was.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Until a Soldier actually shoots at someone/shoots someone, no one is actually breaking any laws. If/when a Soldier takes an action under these orders, then laws will be broken and we’ll see what does and does not happen.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
Also, too, neither Kelly or any other American will go to the Hague thanks to the American Service-Members’ Protection Act. I think that when we get the trifecta this law should be repealed.
Peale
I don’t think there’s any such thing as a cabinet order and I don’t think even if there was that the “Chief of Staff” in the White House would have the authority to issue one.
Gvg
It seems to me to be so obviously not legal, that I almost take it to be Kelly making a soothing ego stroke to Trump that he knows won’t actually have any results. However, Kelly doesn’t have that good a reputation anymore.
I thought I heard the troops were being brought back and undeployed?
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: Actually, that does count as an order, which is the real problem. What is even more interesting is that is the Israeli Rules of Engagement for dealing with Palestinian protestors. So he got that from talking to Bibi, Jared, or both.
Mike in NC
This is simply creeping fascism.
Mnemosyne
@Cheryl Rofer:
Yep. Once Trump hired him, Kelly felt free to let his racist freak flag fly.
I also wonder if they’re trying to get this established before the new Congress is sworn in and then claim it’s an ongoing operation so Congress can’t do any oversight of it. I have no clue at all if that’s how it works, though.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman: Say no more. Say no more.
TenguPhule
@Gvg:
No. Politico reported the General on the ground there was hopeful that the troops there would be redeployed before the holidays.
The actual deployment is still proceeding as planned and the Pentagon has not released any notification of them being pulled out.
A Ghost To Most
I just jabbed a leather sewing needle deep into my index finger (ouch!), And it still doesn’t burn like the hate I feel for those fucking nazis.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
What’s one more crime against humanity, at this point?
Mandalay
@TenguPhule:
“Risking”? Not sure if serious.
gene108
You know Trump just wants to gun down asylum seekers and anyone else crossing on the southern border.
He’s building up to it. But he’s such a coward he won’t give the order to pull the trigger, he’ll depute that to Kelly and Mattis.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Interesting times. sigh.
TenguPhule
@Mandalay:
Rebelling against Trump’s illegal order will kill the professional career of whichever military officer that does so. Its one of many problems that really need to be addressed in our armed forces.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
They have no idea how it works either.
Their normal mode is to make up shit as they go along, this is just more shit. Laws are for the little people…..
Mnemosyne
@gene108:
I’m pretty sure that Mexico is not going to be thrilled at having US troops firing across their border to try and kill people who are on Mexican soil. That’s the kind of thing that starts a war.
Cheryl Rofer
@Mnemosyne: What they say and how it used to work do not necessarily line up.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Ruckus:
I imagine Kelly at least should, probably does, and just doesn’t care because he’s an authoritarian racist.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Kent State
schrodingers_cat
Kelly’s long audition to become the American Gen. Zia continues.
M31
Grab ‘Em By the Posse
Grab ‘Em By the Comey
Grab ‘Em by the TA-TAAAAAAAAAS
Uh-Huh, Uh-Huh
—
I never really wanted to live in a world where Pynchon-style song lyrics are real
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Mnemosyne:
Judging from what I’ve heard here and elsewhere, the US military is pretty tapped out. How our military in it’s current state would fare against the Mexican military in an unthinkable war, is something I don’t know and hope to never find out.
H.E.Wolf
@Cheryl Rofer:
Excellent point. I just called the 2 Democratic Congressmen from my state who are members of the Armed Services Committee, and was pleased to discover that they’re way ahead of me on this particular issue.
Tick tock, Republicans. Tick tock.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
I welcome our new Taco overlords and their trucks on every corner.
TenguPhule
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
If the national reserves are called out, we’d have enough to defeat the Mexican military in a normal WW II style battle.
Mexico of course is aware of this and would under no circumstances attempt to fight us that way.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: I’m aware.
smintheus
Native Rhode Islander here, I can answer that. It’s an order for an ice cream/milk/syrup drink served in a tall glass, a confection that people beyond Rehoboth mistakenly term a “frappe” (whatever that is supposed to mean).
‘Frappe’ happens to be a non-technical French military term for a strike against the enemy. That must be the source of the confusion.
Mandalay
@TenguPhule:
Of course, in more ways than one. Even if such a “rebel” was legally safe for challenging an illegal order, I’d guess that their career would probably be over as a practical matter (or maybe not?).
By analogy, I wonder whether there are any examples of courageous cops who soared through the ranks after challenging illegal police practices, or snitching on corrupt colleagues?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@TenguPhule:
Mexico would probably try to use the cyber to help defeat us. That and maybe rely on some form international intervention.
Would American civilians be able to hinder this war at all?
JGabriel
@Peale:
Exactly.
Mnemosyne
Twitter just told me that Sec. Nielsen is at the California/Mexico border blathering about how very, very dangerous that “caravan” full of refugees is, so now my guess is that Kelly is trying to save the jobs of himself and his side piece by doing what Trump wants at the border.
TenguPhule
@Mandalay:
Yep. At best they’d be stuck at their current rank and forced to retire. At worst….
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
No, he seems to really believe in this shit.
Downpuppy
@smintheus: No Reheboth – nay, not even a Poularde* En vessie can protect you from the Force de Frappe.
*No turkey for me tomorrow!
TenguPhule
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Mexico’s best bets would be to A) launch attacks to take out or severely damage US military bases near the border and B) guerilla/urban warfare.
US land borders are very accessible precisely because both neighbors have been at peace for so long.
smintheus
@Mandalay: Military personnel are not just permitted to refuse to obey an illegal order. They are required to refuse to obey an illegal order.
Jay
@TenguPhule:
As the long held American Military policy goes, if an Officer or Soldier commits a War Crime by following an order,
They will be prosecuted to the minimal extent of the laws, and their lives and careers will be ruined.
Basically it’s a Hobbsian choice.
Obey and you are fucked.
Disobey and you are fucked.
The smart choice is to immediately kill the person who gave you the order and claim self defence and sexual assault.
schrodingers_cat
@TenguPhule: Why not both. He believes it and wants to save his blonde gf .
TenguPhule
@Jay:
Sophie’s choice, actually.
Or Morton’s fork.
eric
@Jay: or say he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. We can never know. Argle bargle
tokyokie
@Cheryl Rofer: But at Kent State, it was National Guard troops under the auspices of the state of Ohio, not the standing military.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Pretty sure Kelly isn’t risking a potential death sentence at the Hague in order to keep getting laid. Of course, I could be wrong.
Mandalay
@smintheus:
Sure, but does every grunt in the military necessarily even know whether an order is illegal?
As a related issue, there can also be orders which are legal but downright irresponsible and reckless. There was an example during the Iraq War when some soldiers refused to obey an order to make a very dangerous fuel run. The army tried to make the whole thing go away quietly, but:
schrodingers_cat
@TenguPhule: Love (lust) is blind, deaf and dumb. He wouldn’t be the first one either. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: Touche.
Gelfling 545
“WTF is a cabinet order for military force?”
Unheard of is what it is.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
Yep. Kelly wants to keep his job and his girlfriend’s job, so he does something he already wants to do that he knows will make Trump happy. Win/win, as far as Kelly is concerned.
Gelfling 545
@Adam L Silverman: I’m guessing the idea of Kelly signing it is that, when hell is raised over it, Trump can escape blame.
Frankensteinbeck
@Mandalay:
Going by previous statements by the military folk here, their sergeants and every commander up the scale from there knows that these ‘shoot civilians’ orders are illegal, are specifically trained to refuse this kind of thing, and take it very seriously. That is only my understanding of what I have heard here, but they seemed emphatic at the time.
tobie
@schrodingers_cat: As does Mattis’s frankly. I’m tired of him being given a pass. He’s knee deep in this crap.
Aardvark Cheeselog
@smintheus:
No, it’s a non-technical French military term for “strike that turns the enemy into milkshake.” Hence its misappropriation by a certain mass-market coffee drinks vendor.
schrodingers_cat
@tobie: Not knee deep, neck deep. He was there when T signed the infamous Muslim ban within a week of taking office, providing legitimacy to the Russian plant.
Did you know his mother was an immigrant. She came from the great white north as a six month old. *headdesk*
tobie
Yeah, i heard him say his mother came from Canada, which he felt made him sensitive to the plight of immigrants even as he was sending troops to the border to tackle any poor mother and child trying to apply for asylum. If he had any principles, he would quit this unprincipled and lawless administration.
Uncle Cosmo
@smintheus: There is also a thing called a “frappé” (i.e., “beaten”) that I ran across in Piraeus when first visiting Greece in ’97, which is arguably the only palatable concoction in the risible universe that prominently features instant “coffee”. (“Nescafe” in Yerp – a brand name rendered generic by frequent use, like “kleenex” or “formica”.) Recipe for one version may be found here.
sm*t cl*de
@TenguPhule:
SO basically you have US troops given illegal orders to act like an occupying army, and no-one is quite sure where they’re deployed any more, but they’re under the control of people who reckon that the election they just lost was not legitimate.
rikyrah
Tell, it Cole.
TELL IT!!!
Kelly ain’t shyt.
wjs
General Russel Honore, 2005:
“Hundreds of National Guard and active duty troops are carrying weapons in the city. But the way they carried those guns was a concern to the general.
He ordered all he encountered to point their weapons down, said CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr, who was with the general. Honore repeatedly went up to military vehicles, National Guardsmen standing sentry and even to New Orleans police officers, telling them to please point their weapons down and reminding them that they were not in Iraq.”
randy khan
Is anybody else hearing echoes of Alexander Haig here?
Skepticat
@Mike in NC:
Well, no, it’s galloping, screaming, blithering, ludicrous, rampant, sickening, unapologetic fascism.
W.T.F?
TenguPhule
@sm*t cl*de:
Yep. Sleep tight.
Adam L Silverman
We have some clarifying follow on reporting:
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne:
Everytime I read that, I crack up.
burnspbesq
Cole:
Pretty clearly unlawful.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman: So they’re both guilty AF.
burnspbesq
Where the fuck is Baltazar Garzon when he could actually do the world some fucking good?
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
I know I have no actual evidence, but I genuinely believe that it’s true. The pieces just fit together too perfectly, IMO.
I may be proven wrong at some point, but after watching his actions of the past two years, nobody can convince me that Kelly would draw the moral line at cheating on his wife given all of the other morally horrible shit he’s doing or approving.
Aleta
They took children away, they lied to parents that they’d be reunited in a few hours, they shipped them across the country and didn’t record where or who their parents are. They provided parents with *nothing* to locate their children, or just gave a phone number they weren’t allowed to use.
They allowed unqualified employees to medicate the children, again no record. They let contractors charge taxpayers for this; contractors who use adult prisoners to clean the facilities. They send some children to foster families without providing medical records or required information.
They don’t care if the children die or how much they suffer. They threw a father into a cell for resisting the removal of his child, where he died.
They’re indifferent and tell us no one is responsible except the imprisoned. This is who are running our country.
Mike in DC
If troops shoot any migrants, I don’t think that story plays out the way wingnuts fantasize it would.
Bonnie
I am getting shivers with visions of a revisit to Kent State.