Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

You are either for trump or for democracy. Pick one.

Dear elected officials: Trump is temporary, dishonor is forever.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Trump should be leading, not lying.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

American history and black history cannot be separated.

This chaos was totally avoidable.

One lie, alone, tears the fabric of reality.

The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris

We’re watching the self-immolation of the leading world power on a level unprecedented in human history.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

We know you aren’t a Democrat but since you seem confused let me help you.

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

Not all heroes wear capes.

You are here: Home / Politics / Goddamned Traitors / John Kelly’s Excellent Adventure at the Hague

John Kelly’s Excellent Adventure at the Hague

by | 91 Comments

This post is in: ,

These STASI motherfuckers need to go to jail:

The White House late Tuesday signed a memo allowing troops stationed at the border to engage in some law enforcement roles and use lethal force, if necessary — a move that legal experts have cautioned may run afoul of the Posse Comitatus Act.

The new “Cabinet order” was signed by White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, not President Donald Trump. It allows “Department of Defense military personnel” to “perform those military protective activities that the Secretary of Defense determines are reasonably necessary” to protect border agents, including “a show or use of force (including lethal force, where necessary), crowd control, temporary detention. and cursory search.”

There are approximately 5,900 active-duty troops and 2,100 National Guard forces deployed to the U.S.-Mexico border.

Some of those activities, including crowd control and detention, may run into potential conflict with the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act. If crossed, the erosion of the act’s limitations could represent a fundamental shift in the way the U.S. military is used, legal experts said.

WTF is a cabinet order for military force?

Reader Interactions

91Comments

  1. 1.

    Cheryl Rofer

    I hate to mention it again, but the first line of defense, the body tasked with oversight of such things, is Congress. But I haven’t seen anything from the majority party about the disasters of the last week or so, not even to assure us that everything is fine.

  2. 2.

    TenguPhule

    The new “Cabinet order” was signed by White House Chief of Staff John Kelly,

    Starscream.

    It allows “Department of Defense military personnel” to “perform those military protective activities that the Secretary of Defense determines are reasonably necessary” to protect border agents, including “a show or use of force (including lethal force, where necessary), crowd control, temporary detention. and cursory search.”

    Adam, what say you?

  3. 3.

    TenguPhule

    If crossed, the erosion of the act’s limitations could represent a fundamental shift in the way the U.S. military is used, legal experts said.

    Donald Trump shits on norms, laws and regulations and dares anyone to hold him accountable.

  4. 4.

    The Dangerman

    The new “Cabinet order” was signed by White House Chief of Staff John Kelly…

    Not worth the toilet paper it is printed on, but it probably got a rise out of Trump (as soon as he heard posse).

  5. 5.

    Adam L Silverman

    Unless its a fancy name for a directly ordered by the President memorandum of understanding between two or more Federal agencies delineating how they will work together, I have no idea. Whatever it is that Kelly signed, it is both illegal and well outside of his authority.

  6. 6.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    Fascist fucks like Mark Meadows see nothing wrong with this and others that may have are retiring/have been booted from office. The rest are a crazy right-wing rump.

    This is clearly a violation of American law, which is why I think Kelly signed the order and not Trump

  7. 7.

    TenguPhule

    Defense officials said the language in the directive was carefully crafted to avoid running up against the bedrock legal limitations set in Posse Comitatus. The law was originally intended to protect the states from being controlled by federal troops. It has evolved into a singly defining, almost church versus state-type wall forbidding active-duty forces under the control of the president from conducting any types of crowd control or law enforcement domestically, essentially ensuring that the U.S. military is not used to control or defeat American citizens on U.S. soil.

    Kelly said in the signed directive that the additional authorities were necessary because “credible evidence and intelligence” have indicated that the thousands of migrants who have now made their way to the U.S. checkpoint near Tijuana, Mexico, “may prompt incidents of violence and disorder” that could threaten border officials.

    We all know exactly what Trump thinks about the church state divide. Now we know that Kelly thinks the same about Posse Comitatus.

  8. 8.

    Mary G

    @Cheryl Rofer: Bob Corker and Rand Paul furrowed their brows, I am sure. Isn’t this unconstitutional six ways from Sunday? I need to up my contribution to the ACLU again.

    It is the ultimate gall for Kelly to sign the thing. That’s just a big fat fuck you to the nation and rule of law.

  9. 9.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @TenguPhule:

    Donald Trump shits on norms, laws and regulations and dares anyone to hold him accountable.

    House Dems: “Mission accepted”

  10. 10.

    TenguPhule

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Whatever it is that Kelly signed, it is both illegal and well outside of his authority.

    Problem is, are the troops on the ground going to follow them anyway? I don’t see any of the officers at the border risking their careers to make a statement.

  12. 12.

    Judge Crater

    Trump just should have had Ivanka sign the order.
    And Kelly is just a dumbass Jarhead. Sorry Marines.

  13. 13.

    Adam L Silverman

    @TenguPhule: Kourtney Kube just reported, based on a recent interview with Secretary Mattis, that these authorizations were already in place for several weeks. And that they are actually established Rules of Engagement for self defense.

    That makes little more sense than what was reported in Military Times.

  14. 14.

    David Hunt

    Like the prime movers of the Bush Admin, it looks like the important cogs of the Trump Era will need to be very careful about which countries they visit after the whole shebang is over.

  20. 20.

    JGabriel

    Military Times:

    The new “Cabinet order” was signed by White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, not President Donald Trump.

    John Cole @ Top:

    WTF is a cabinet order for military force?

    Good question.

    A few other good questions for Kelly would be:

    When, as a General, you were commander of United States Southern Command, would you have accepted and/or obeyed a Cabinet Order from Jack Lew or Denis McDonough? If so, what would have been the constitutional authority for you to obey commands from them? If not, what gives you the authority to issue Cabinet Orders and expect them to be obeyed?

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    @TenguPhule: Until a Soldier actually shoots at someone/shoots someone, no one is actually breaking any laws. If/when a Soldier takes an action under these orders, then laws will be broken and we’ll see what does and does not happen.

  23. 23.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    Also, too, neither Kelly or any other American will go to the Hague thanks to the American Service-Members’ Protection Act. I think that when we get the trifecta this law should be repealed.

  24. 24.

    Peale

    I don’t think there’s any such thing as a cabinet order and I don’t think even if there was that the “Chief of Staff” in the White House would have the authority to issue one.

  25. 25.

    Gvg

    It seems to me to be so obviously not legal, that I almost take it to be Kelly making a soothing ego stroke to Trump that he knows won’t actually have any results. However, Kelly doesn’t have that good a reputation anymore.
    I thought I heard the troops were being brought back and undeployed?

  26. 26.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: Actually, that does count as an order, which is the real problem. What is even more interesting is that is the Israeli Rules of Engagement for dealing with Palestinian protestors. So he got that from talking to Bibi, Jared, or both.

  28. 28.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Wasn’t it originally his idea to separate parents from children as a deterrent?

    Yep. Once Trump hired him, Kelly felt free to let his racist freak flag fly.

    I also wonder if they’re trying to get this established before the new Congress is sworn in and then claim it’s an ongoing operation so Congress can’t do any oversight of it. I have no clue at all if that’s how it works, though.

  30. 30.

    TenguPhule

    @Gvg:

    I thought I heard the troops were being brought back and undeployed?

    No. Politico reported the General on the ground there was hopeful that the troops there would be redeployed before the holidays.

    The actual deployment is still proceeding as planned and the Pentagon has not released any notification of them being pulled out.

  31. 31.

    A Ghost To Most

    I just jabbed a leather sewing needle deep into my index finger (ouch!), And it still doesn’t burn like the hate I feel for those fucking nazis.

  34. 34.

    gene108

    You know Trump just wants to gun down asylum seekers and anyone else crossing on the southern border.

    He’s building up to it. But he’s such a coward he won’t give the order to pull the trigger, he’ll depute that to Kelly and Mattis.

  36. 36.

    TenguPhule

    @Mandalay:

    “Risking”? Not sure if serious.

    Rebelling against Trump’s illegal order will kill the professional career of whichever military officer that does so. Its one of many problems that really need to be addressed in our armed forces.

  37. 37.

    Ruckus

    @Mnemosyne:
    They have no idea how it works either.
    Their normal mode is to make up shit as they go along, this is just more shit. Laws are for the little people…..

  38. 38.

    Mnemosyne

    @gene108:

    I’m pretty sure that Mexico is not going to be thrilled at having US troops firing across their border to try and kill people who are on Mexican soil. That’s the kind of thing that starts a war.

  40. 40.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Ruckus:
    I imagine Kelly at least should, probably does, and just doesn’t care because he’s an authoritarian racist.

  43. 43.

    M31

    Grab ‘Em By the Posse
    Grab ‘Em By the Comey
    Grab ‘Em by the TA-TAAAAAAAAAS
    Uh-Huh, Uh-Huh

    —
    I never really wanted to live in a world where Pynchon-style song lyrics are real

  44. 44.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Mnemosyne:
    Judging from what I’ve heard here and elsewhere, the US military is pretty tapped out. How our military in it’s current state would fare against the Mexican military in an unthinkable war, is something I don’t know and hope to never find out.

  45. 45.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    the first line of defense, the body tasked with oversight of such things, is Congress.

    Excellent point. I just called the 2 Democratic Congressmen from my state who are members of the Armed Services Committee, and was pleased to discover that they’re way ahead of me on this particular issue.

    Tick tock, Republicans. Tick tock.

  46. 46.

    TenguPhule

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m pretty sure that Mexico is not going to be thrilled at having US troops firing across their border to try and kill people who are on Mexican soil. That’s the kind of thing that starts a war.

    I welcome our new Taco overlords and their trucks on every corner.

  47. 47.

    TenguPhule

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    How our military in it’s current state would fare against the Mexican military in an unthinkable war, is something I don’t know and hope to never find out.

    If the national reserves are called out, we’d have enough to defeat the Mexican military in a normal WW II style battle.

    Mexico of course is aware of this and would under no circumstances attempt to fight us that way.

  49. 49.

    smintheus

    WTF is a cabinet order for military force?

    Native Rhode Islander here, I can answer that. It’s an order for an ice cream/milk/syrup drink served in a tall glass, a confection that people beyond Rehoboth mistakenly term a “frappe” (whatever that is supposed to mean).

    ‘Frappe’ happens to be a non-technical French military term for a strike against the enemy. That must be the source of the confusion.

  50. 50.

    Mandalay

    @TenguPhule:

    Rebelling against Trump’s illegal order will kill the professional career of whichever military officer that does so.

    Of course, in more ways than one. Even if such a “rebel” was legally safe for challenging an illegal order, I’d guess that their career would probably be over as a practical matter (or maybe not?).

    By analogy, I wonder whether there are any examples of courageous cops who soared through the ranks after challenging illegal police practices, or snitching on corrupt colleagues?

  51. 51.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @TenguPhule:
    Mexico would probably try to use the cyber to help defeat us. That and maybe rely on some form international intervention.

    Would American civilians be able to hinder this war at all?

  52. 52.

    JGabriel

    @Peale:

    I don’t think there’s any such thing as a cabinet order and I don’t think even if there was that the “Chief of Staff” in the White House would have the authority to issue one.

    Exactly.

  53. 53.

    Mnemosyne

    Twitter just told me that Sec. Nielsen is at the California/Mexico border blathering about how very, very dangerous that “caravan” full of refugees is, so now my guess is that Kelly is trying to save the jobs of himself and his side piece by doing what Trump wants at the border.

  54. 54.

    TenguPhule

    @Mandalay:

    I’d guess that their career would probably be over as a practical matter

    Yep. At best they’d be stuck at their current rank and forced to retire. At worst….

  55. 55.

    TenguPhule

    @Mnemosyne:

    so now my guess is that Kelly is trying to save the jobs of himself and his side piece by doing what Trump wants at the border.

    No, he seems to really believe in this shit.

  57. 57.

    TenguPhule

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??:

    Mexico would probably try to use the cyber to help defeat us. That and maybe rely on some form international intervention.

    Mexico’s best bets would be to A) launch attacks to take out or severely damage US military bases near the border and B) guerilla/urban warfare.

    US land borders are very accessible precisely because both neighbors have been at peace for so long.

  58. 58.

    smintheus

    @Mandalay: Military personnel are not just permitted to refuse to obey an illegal order. They are required to refuse to obey an illegal order.

  59. 59.

    Jay

    @TenguPhule:

    As the long held American Military policy goes, if an Officer or Soldier commits a War Crime by following an order,

    They will be prosecuted to the minimal extent of the laws, and their lives and careers will be ruined.

    Basically it’s a Hobbsian choice.

    Obey and you are fucked.

    Disobey and you are fucked.

    The smart choice is to immediately kill the person who gave you the order and claim self defence and sexual assault.

  62. 62.

    eric

    @Jay: or say he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. We can never know. Argle bargle

  65. 65.

    Mandalay

    @smintheus:

    Military personnel are not just permitted to refuse to obey an illegal order. They are required to refuse to obey an illegal order.

    Sure, but does every grunt in the military necessarily even know whether an order is illegal?

    As a related issue, there can also be orders which are legal but downright irresponsible and reckless. There was an example during the Iraq War when some soldiers refused to obey an order to make a very dangerous fuel run. The army tried to make the whole thing go away quietly, but:

    Upon returning to the United States, the company was largely lauded as “heroes” for facing potential courts-martial by refusing an order which they believed would lead their companions to be killed.

  69. 69.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Yep. Kelly wants to keep his job and his girlfriend’s job, so he does something he already wants to do that he knows will make Trump happy. Win/win, as far as Kelly is concerned.

  71. 71.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Mandalay:

    Sure, but does every grunt in the military necessarily even know whether an order is illegal?

    Going by previous statements by the military folk here, their sergeants and every commander up the scale from there knows that these ‘shoot civilians’ orders are illegal, are specifically trained to refuse this kind of thing, and take it very seriously. That is only my understanding of what I have heard here, but they seemed emphatic at the time.

  74. 74.

    schrodingers_cat

    @tobie: Not knee deep, neck deep. He was there when T signed the infamous Muslim ban within a week of taking office, providing legitimacy to the Russian plant.
    Did you know his mother was an immigrant. She came from the great white north as a six month old. *headdesk*

  75. 75.

    tobie

    Yeah, i heard him say his mother came from Canada, which he felt made him sensitive to the plight of immigrants even as he was sending troops to the border to tackle any poor mother and child trying to apply for asylum. If he had any principles, he would quit this unprincipled and lawless administration.

  76. 76.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @smintheus: There is also a thing called a “frappé” (i.e., “beaten”) that I ran across in Piraeus when first visiting Greece in ’97, which is arguably the only palatable concoction in the risible universe that prominently features instant “coffee”. (“Nescafe” in Yerp – a brand name rendered generic by frequent use, like “kleenex” or “formica”.) Recipe for one version may be found here.

  77. 77.

    sm*t cl*de

    @TenguPhule:

    No. Politico reported the General on the ground there was hopeful that the troops there would be redeployed before the holidays.
    The actual deployment is still proceeding as planned and the Pentagon has not released any notification of them being pulled out.

    SO basically you have US troops given illegal orders to act like an occupying army, and no-one is quite sure where they’re deployed any more, but they’re under the control of people who reckon that the election they just lost was not legitimate.

  79. 79.

    wjs

    General Russel Honore, 2005:

    “Hundreds of National Guard and active duty troops are carrying weapons in the city. But the way they carried those guns was a concern to the general.

    He ordered all he encountered to point their weapons down, said CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr, who was with the general. Honore repeatedly went up to military vehicles, National Guardsmen standing sentry and even to New Orleans police officers, telling them to please point their weapons down and reminding them that they were not in Iraq.”

  81. 81.

    Skepticat

    @Mike in NC:

    This is simply creeping fascism.

    Well, no, it’s galloping, screaming, blithering, ludicrous, rampant, sickening, unapologetic fascism.
    W.T.F?

  82. 82.

    TenguPhule

    @sm*t cl*de:

    SO basically you have US troops given illegal orders to act like an occupying army, and no-one is quite sure where they’re deployed any more, but they’re under the control of people who reckon that the election they just lost was not legitimate.

    Yep. Sleep tight.

  88. 88.

    Mnemosyne

    @rikyrah:

    I know I have no actual evidence, but I genuinely believe that it’s true. The pieces just fit together too perfectly, IMO.

    I may be proven wrong at some point, but after watching his actions of the past two years, nobody can convince me that Kelly would draw the moral line at cheating on his wife given all of the other morally horrible shit he’s doing or approving.

  89. 89.

    Aleta

    They took children away, they lied to parents that they’d be reunited in a few hours, they shipped them across the country and didn’t record where or who their parents are. They provided parents with *nothing* to locate their children, or just gave a phone number they weren’t allowed to use.

    They allowed unqualified employees to medicate the children, again no record. They let contractors charge taxpayers for this; contractors who use adult prisoners to clean the facilities. They send some children to foster families without providing medical records or required information.

    They don’t care if the children die or how much they suffer. They threw a father into a cell for resisting the removal of his child, where he died.

    They’re indifferent and tell us no one is responsible except the imprisoned. This is who are running our country.

  90. 90.

    Mike in DC

    If troops shoot any migrants, I don’t think that story plays out the way wingnuts fantasize it would.

Comments are closed.