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You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Secretary of Defense Mattis Gets Out Maneuvered

Secretary of Defense Mattis Gets Out Maneuvered

by Adam L Silverman|  November 21, 20188:54 pm| 111 Comments

This post is in: 2020 Elections, America, Crazification Factor, Domestic Politics, Election 2016, Foreign Affairs, Military, Open Threads, Politics, Popular Culture, Post-racial America, Silverman on Security, Not Normal

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EXCLUSIVE: Mattis said no to lethal military force at the border. So DHS went behind his back. https://t.co/dWbeBmuSas

— Noah Shachtman (@NoahShachtman) November 21, 2018

From The Daily Beast:

Defense Secretary Jim Mattis last month objected to using military force to protect border agents on the southwest border, a knowledgeable current U.S. official and a former Defense Department official told The Daily Beast.

But Mattis didn’t object on principle. When the Department of Homeland Security requested the so-called force protection mission from the Pentagon, Mattis declined because he thought he lacked the authority to do so, the current official said.

Mattis’ objection, as of late October, was the genesis of a highly controversial White House memorandum issued late Tuesday explicitly authorizing the potential use of lethal force against the unarmed civilians of the migrant caravan.

DHS wouldn’t take no for an answer, The Daily Beast has learned. Homeland Security went above Mattis’ head in order to get Donald Trump’s chief of staff to secure for them the potentially lethal military force for which immigration hardliners in the administration had clamored.

In internal discussions with DHS, Mattis pointed to an April 4 memorandum from Trump on hardening the southern border. That memo directed cooperation between Mattis, Nielsen, and then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions on combating “illegal drugs, dangerous gang activity, and extensive illegal immigration.” (Border crossings have declined over the past decade, and are at levels historically far from “extensive.”) But the memo did not provide Mattis with explicit authorities to use military force, let alone lethal force, in aiding CBP should agents come in danger.

DHS was unwilling to leave the matter at that. The former Defense official said that Homeland Security circumvented Mattis and the Pentagon and instead went directly to the White House in an effort to secure explicit authority for this move from Trump and the West Wing.

And it appears to have worked. Kelly’s memo directly included authorization for lethal military backup. DHS and National Security Council officials did not reply to The Daily Beast’s inquiries by deadline.

More at the link.

Secretary Mattis seems to have outlasted Mira Ricardel who was running a campaign from her office as the Deputy National Security Advisor to wrong-foot Mattis with the President. Ricardel’s motivation was revenge because Mattis refused to both hire her for an undersecretary of Defense position and any of the people she pushed forward from her perch on the DOD transition team for any positions at all. However, both White House Chief of Staff Kelly and Secretary of Homeland Security Nielsen are both trying to save their own jobs, so, because Kelly works in the White House and has access to the President whenever he needs or wants it, he was able to outmaneuver Mattis on this issue. What remains to be seen is what, if anything Mattis does about it.

We also have some clarification from earlier regarding the Cabinet Order that Kelly signed:

#BREAKING Scoop at @Newsweek – President @realDonaldTrump signed the directive for the use of force and law enforcement roles for U.S. troops on the southern border. Kelly signed the directive to the Pentagon. You can read the documents here: https://t.co/OZJhJSVC1Y

— James LaPorta (@JimLaPorta) November 21, 2018

Update at 9:30 PM EDT

We now know what Secretary Mattis is doing about it! Task & Purpose has an important update to this story (emphasis mine):

THE PENTAGON — Any U.S. troops who assist civil authorities who come under attack by migrants will not be armed, Defense Secretary James Mattis clarified on Wednesday.

“There has been no call for any lethal force from DHS [Department of Homeland Security],” Mattis told reporters at a Pentagon news conference. “There is no armed element going in. I will determine it, based on what DHS asks for and a mission analysis.”

Mattis spoke the day after retired Marine Gen. John Kelly, White House Chief of Staff, signed a “cabinet order” giving active-duty U.S. troops on the southwest border new authorities to assist U.S. Border and Customs Protection personnel.

If border police came under attack, unarmed military police could respond, but they would be equipped with shields and batons, not firearms, Mattis said.

A reporter noted that Kelly’s cabinet order gives troops the authority to use lethal force, if necessary.

“I have the authority,” Mattis replied, noting that pictures of troops on the border show that they do not have weapons. “Relax. Don’t worry about it.”

We are off the looking glass and through the map!

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

111Comments

  1. 1.

    Ben Cisco

    November 21, 2018 at 8:58 pm

    Clowns. The lot of them.

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 8:58 pm

    So who gets the ticket when the first dead person shows up at the border due to a military intervention/shooting?

  3. 3.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 8:59 pm

    What remains to be seen is what, if anything Mattis does about it.

    Is there really any doubt?

  4. 4.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 9:01 pm

    @Ben Cisco: IMO, the military grunts and lower level commanders are probably against this development. However, some are going to find license to work out their daddy issues on the border. Those clowns have a fair to middling chance they will kill a few people.

  5. 5.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:02 pm

    @Corner Stone: Yes there is. Normally you’d expect he’d resign. However, he may choose not to because he’s worried about being replaced with Tom Cotton.

  6. 6.

    NotMax

    November 21, 2018 at 9:02 pm

    Another day, another holler.

    At least I still manage to do the hollering internally, although that may not last.

    What will the service medal for this misbegotten mission depict? A taco with a circle crossed by a slash superimposed on it?

  7. 7.

    hueyplong

    November 21, 2018 at 9:05 pm

    The number of highly placed administration people who have resigned on principle doesn’t appear to be terribly high.

    Lots of resignations, but not many on principle.

  8. 8.

    Suzanne

    November 21, 2018 at 9:09 pm

    Secretary Mattis seems to have outlasted Mira Ricardel who was running a campaign from her office as the Deputy National Security Advisor to wrong-foot Mattis with the President. Ricardel’s motivation was revenge because Mattis refused to both hire her for an undersecretary of Defense position and any of the people she pushed forward from her perch on the DOD transition team for any positions at all.

    So why did Melanoma want Ricardel gone? Is it related to this issue?
    And is that why Mango Unchained is trying to find her a different job?

  9. 9.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:11 pm

    @Suzanne: No the First Lady wanted Ricardel gone because Ricardel wouldn’t authorize National Security Staff/National Security Council resources in support of her Africa trip. And then compounded that by wanting to accompany the First Lady’s trip.

  10. 10.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 9:12 pm

    Another example of the whataboutism of this admin. Yeah, sure. The next guy is going to be so much worse than this. Can you believe it?!
    Can’t honestly say I see any difference between McMaster’s obsequiousness and Bolton if you disregard the mustache. Sexy Rexy and Pompeo. Nikki Haley and whoever follows her. There is only one rotting fish head.

    McMaster kneeled down and blew goats on Trump’s behalf. And still got fucking punked for it. Rexxon got canned on the shitter. Sessions was an asshole but even that didn’t save him. This is endless, man.

  11. 11.

    Manyakitty

    November 21, 2018 at 9:14 pm

    It seems like forces are converging right now. How many federal agencies has he shat upon in the last week? Now this? And his response to Chief Justice Roberts? I…just…wut.

  12. 12.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 9:14 pm

    Epaulets and brass don’t confer nobility and virtue on the wearer. They are all T men. That’s all one needs to know really.
    The end.

  13. 13.

    Ruckus

    November 21, 2018 at 9:14 pm

    @NotMax:
    A steaming pile of bullshit.

    We have arrived at 2 steps from our worst nightmare, illegal use of the national military against lawful beings. I’m reminded of Kent State.
    ETA As well as the midterms went, I believe that we have fallen from a republic to a dictatorship.
    Can anyone name a federal law shit for brains hasn’t broken?

  14. 14.

    Suzanne

    November 21, 2018 at 9:16 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: All of these people are nothing but trash.

    I feel like Mattis is the only one of them who doesn’t make me sick. But then again, he agreed to serve this asshole. Then again, I know that some military dudes feel honor-bound to serve if asked, even if they disagree with their boss. This is not a mindset I grok, but I can intellectually wrap my head around it.

  15. 15.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 9:16 pm

    @Corner Stone: I almost forgot about the well built Lex Luther.

  16. 16.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:20 pm

    @Suzanne: It is what it is.

  17. 17.

    Ruckus

    November 21, 2018 at 9:21 pm

    Not much any of us can do about any of this, congress and the courts might be of help, but what can they actually do to slow or stop this unlawful bullshit? And if they manage, will it be soon enough or is it too late as it is?
    Inquiring minds and all that…….

  18. 18.

    hells littlest angel

    November 21, 2018 at 9:22 pm

    Trump will need something to brag about at his 2020 campaign rallies. Murdered immigrants will drive the crowds wild.

  19. 19.

    Procopius

    November 21, 2018 at 9:22 pm

    @hueyplong: Resigning on principle is not an American tradition. Almost any story about some general “resigning” really means they retired to take a fat pension. A full general’s pension is a quarter million dollars a year. When I enlisted in the Air Force in 1955, a common saying was, “Nobody becomes a soldier to get rich.” That’s no longer true, since most generals after retirement also get two or three appointments on corporate boards of directors and maybe a couple of consultancies. Even retired Sergeants Major do pretty well, but that’s more upper middle class, not rich.

  20. 20.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 9:25 pm

    @Suzanne: We’ve got, let’s say three weeks to determine where Mattis falls. Either the orders change in the interim or The Caravan becomes a non-story and nobody gets shot.
    The Caravan may not make it to the border in that timeframe but we’re going to know a few things by then.

  21. 21.

    Barbara

    November 21, 2018 at 9:28 pm

    This is how you know he not only doesn’t care about Kashoggi but actually admires MBS for having the guts to get rid of his enemies. I can’t shake my sadness that this is who we’ve become. I read a New Yorker piece about Ryan Costello and it made me doubly furious to read that Costello still thinks Trump is just an aberration and people like him are the “answer.” The delusion is so deep.

  22. 22.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 9:29 pm

    @Corner Stone: Mattis has overseen the shutting down of USCIS offices on bases. The ones that helped soldiers with their naturalization applications.
    I think he is all in on the anti-immigrant agenda, even though his mother is supposedly an immigrant. Its not like the President’s xenophobia and bigotry were a secret when he came to office. Birther campaign, Mexicans not sending their best and so on.

  23. 23.

    Procopius

    November 21, 2018 at 9:29 pm

    @Suzanne:

    So why did Melanoma want Ricardel gone? Is it related to this issue?

    We can’t know for sure, but it appears from newspaper reports that Ricardel is a petty tyrant who forgot her place. She refused to pass on a couple of promotions that Melania requested for members of her staff, and criticized some fairly trivial expenses on one (or more) of her trips. She was evidently very good at political infighting most of the time (Bolton is said to be a consummate genius at it, which is why he keeps gaining power even though he’s a lunatic), but was so rigid in her beliefs she tried to control the wrong people. At least, given the very limited information we are able to get, that seems like a plausible explanation.

  24. 24.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:31 pm

    @Corner Stone: I’ve been poking around since I did the post to see if anything has been clarified and I came across this. I’ll be doing an update up top too.
    https://taskandpurpose.com/no-lethal-force-border-troops/

    THE PENTAGON — Any U.S. troops who assist civil authorities who come under attack by migrants will not be armed, Defense Secretary James Mattis clarified on Wednesday.

    “There has been no call for any lethal force from DHS [Department of Homeland Security],” Mattis told reporters at a Pentagon news conference. “There is no armed element going in. I will determine it, based on what DHS asks for and a mission analysis.”

    Mattis spoke the day after retired Marine Gen. John Kelly, White House Chief of Staff, signed a “cabinet order” giving active-duty U.S. troops on the southwest border new authorities to assist U.S. Border and Customs Protection personnel.

    If border police came under attack, unarmed military police could respond, but they would be equipped with shields and batons, not firearms, Mattis said.

    A reporter noted that Kelly’s cabinet order gives troops the authority to use lethal force, if necessary.

    “I have the authority,” Mattis replied, noting that pictures of troops on the border show that they do not have weapons. “Relax. Don’t worry about it.”

  25. 25.

    Immanentize

    November 21, 2018 at 9:32 pm

    Response to superior orders that are illegal is not a defense.
    Jes sayin’.

  26. 26.

    Procopius

    November 21, 2018 at 9:37 pm

    @Ruckus:

    Can anyone name a federal law shit for brains hasn’t broken?

    There’s a felony I remember reading about, but am not sure if it’s a federal regulation or a statute. Not sure if that makes any difference. Anyway, it’s a felony to take an arrowhead from an Indian reservation without obtaining a license from the Bureau of Indian Affairs or whatever it’s called now. I think Trump has not broken that law yet. There are estimated to be over 5,000 felonies defined in the current US Code, so I’m sure there are many he hasn’t yet committed.

  27. 27.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:37 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: He is not all in on the anti-immigrant agenda. He doesn’t control those offices, the people that staff them don’t work for him, and the resources that pay for him are not in his budgetary control. If DHS decides to shut them down, he can’t keep them open.

  28. 28.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:41 pm

    @Procopius: If I’m recalling correctly, on an average day, every American breaks three laws without knowing they’re doing so.

  29. 29.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 9:41 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: That doesn’t gibe with any of the reporting thus far. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if anyone dies before we understand what their orders actually are.

  30. 30.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 9:43 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I don’t know know what his service is protecting the nation from. I hope we never find out.

  31. 31.

    Ben Cisco

    November 21, 2018 at 9:47 pm

    @Corner Stone: Agreed. The whole thing is just appalling. I want them all to burn for this.

  32. 32.

    Mike in DC

    November 21, 2018 at 9:47 pm

    The reaction to US troops shooting unarmed migrants, including women and children, would make Abu Ghraib look like a minor gaffe by comparison.

  33. 33.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:48 pm

    @Corner Stone: That is the most recent follow on reporting with the reporting quoting directly from Mattis. My take is Mattis got wind of what was being reported, got his public affairs officer to bring in some reporters, and he issued a statement clarifying things.

  34. 34.

    NotMax

    November 21, 2018 at 9:48 pm

    @Corner Stone

    Orcs, the menace that shall not be named. //

  35. 35.

    Immanentize

    November 21, 2018 at 9:51 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Yes. Shorter Mattis: “I don’t take orders from DHS. Over and out.”

  36. 36.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 21, 2018 at 9:52 pm

    Eventually, this is leading to the utterly out of the question solution to this problem.

    Seal Team 6 deals with the idiot in the Oval Office.

  37. 37.

    Miss Bianca

    November 21, 2018 at 9:53 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:Oh, so he got his PR officer to issue an “I’m in charge here” statement? Is that the same as being actually in charge of the situation?
    Not actually meant as snark. Tho’ I do cop to feeling far less assurance in Mattis’s competence and integrity than you do.

  38. 38.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 9:58 pm

    @Miss Bianca: No, he did not. He had his public affairs officer get reporters and he then made the statement directly to them.

  39. 39.

    debbie

    November 21, 2018 at 10:02 pm

    I guess I’m wrong to think DHS is part of DoD?

  40. 40.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:02 pm

    @Miss Bianca: I don’t trust any of the political appointees. The faith in the generals that most Americans had at the beginning of the administration was touching. I am not talking of Balloon Juice.
    My RL anecdata
    My friend (Bangladeshi Muslim, naturalized citizen)’s WASP husband and my old landlord and landlady (He has Polish and she has Lithuanian ancestry, both their grandparents came to MA in early last century), they are about my parents’ age assured me that the generals would keep us safe. I asked how do you know for sure. They had no answer. BTW all these people are liberal and Ds and were horrified that T was elected.

  41. 41.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 10:03 pm

    @NotMax: Dammit.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    November 21, 2018 at 10:08 pm

    @debbie

    Separate cabinet department. There’s interconnection or overlap (Coast Guard, for example), but still discrete departments.

  43. 43.

    Immanentize

    November 21, 2018 at 10:09 pm

    @debbie: It is most definitely not. DOD is its own beast. DHS was the Frankenstein created after 9/11cobbled together out of non-DOJ civilian departments (like INS/ICE, Border Patrol, ATF, etc.)

  44. 44.

    debbie

    November 21, 2018 at 10:11 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    None of these military guys have put their interests before their country. That alone differentiates them from the civilians in the WH, and I think that is important.

  45. 45.

    Immanentize

    November 21, 2018 at 10:13 pm

    @debbie: I think Kelly has. Flynn certainly did….

  46. 46.

    debbie

    November 21, 2018 at 10:13 pm

    @NotMax:@Immanentize:

    Thanks. Just found an org chart at Wikipedia. It’s all spaghetti to me.

  47. 47.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2018 at 10:14 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: or basically anyone in the IC with some minimal planning, training, and support …or a Koch-bought field organizer backstage at a rally…and on and on

  48. 48.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:15 pm

    @debbie: What @Immanentize: said.
    And the jury is still out on Gen Mattis. This operation
    Patriot or whatever the stunt on the southern border is called has not covered him in any glory. Of course YMMV.

  49. 49.

    debbie

    November 21, 2018 at 10:16 pm

    @Immanentize:

    Flynn’s definitely an outlier.

  50. 50.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:17 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Here is hoping you are right. And thanks for the info about who operates what on the bases.

  51. 51.

    debbie

    November 21, 2018 at 10:19 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I don’t recall him being the one who ordered it.

  52. 52.

    Redshift

    November 21, 2018 at 10:19 pm

    “Abolish ICE” didn’t go far enough. DHS was a bad idea from the get-go, and it needs to be dismantled and the pieces that have gone rotten need to be replaced with new agencies with an explicit anti-racist, anti-authoritarian mandate..

  53. 53.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2018 at 10:19 pm

    We have been through far too many maps. Pumpkin bread in the oven, smells delicious. The teens have eaten half the apple streusel pie already, think I will have a piece before it’s gone.

  54. 54.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:20 pm

    @debbie: That’s not the point. He has been doing photo-ops with DHS head Nielsen about the so called threat from the caravan. The entire military operation with active duty military is a political stunt. Last I checked Mattis is the Defense secretary. And isn’t politicizing the military for political ends a big no no? Mattis has fallen in line and let the military be used as a prop for the Rs in the midterms.

  55. 55.

    Corner Stone

    November 21, 2018 at 10:22 pm

    @debbie:

    None of these military guys have put their interests before their country. That alone differentiates them from the civilians in the WH, and I think that is important.

    Say what now?

  56. 56.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2018 at 10:23 pm

    Matthis has performed better than I originally thought, and I enjoy this dick swinging contest with Kelly, but he’s no angel. Remember, he was on the board at Theranos. Per Vox last March:

    Secretary of Defense James Mattis is implicated in one of the largest business scandals of the past decades, described by the Securities and Exchange Commission as an “elaborate, years-long fraud” through which Theranos, led by CEO Elizabeth Holmes and president Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani, “exaggerated or made false statements about the company’s technology, business, and financial performance.”

    Basically, their biotech startup was founded on the promise of faster, cheaper, painless blood tests. But their technology was fake.

    Mattis not only served on Theranos’s board during some of the years it was perpetrating the fraud after he retired from US military service, but he earlier served as a key advocate of putting the company’s technology (technology that was, to be clear, fake) to use inside the military while he was still serving as a general. Holmes is settling the case, paying a $500,000 fee and accepting various other penalties, while Balwani is fighting it out in court.

    Nobody on the board is being directly charged with doing anything. But accepting six-figure checks to serve as a frontman for a con operation is the kind of thing that would normally count as a liability in American politics.

    But nobody wants to talk about it.

  57. 57.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:24 pm

    @debbie: DHS is the Department of Homeland Security. DOD is the Department of Defense. The closest they get to regular integration is that the US Coast Guard is one of the uniformed military services even though it falls under the Department of Homeland Security. Since the creation of DHS, the Commandant of the Coast Guard has been included with the other military service chiefs and the head of the National Guard Bureau within the Joint Chiefs of Staff structure. This includes a seat in the “tank”, the Service chiefs and DOD leaderships operations center at the Pentagon.

  58. 58.

    NotMax

    November 21, 2018 at 10:25 pm

    @MaryG

    The teens have eaten half the apple streusel pie already

    “Wow, this stuff is even better than toaster strudels!”

    :)

  59. 59.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:27 pm

    @Mary G: Mattis seems a bit gullible (or corrupt) or both in the whole Theranos fracas. I am no biochemist but anyone with an iota of scientific training would have taken their tall claims with a grain of salt.

  60. 60.

    Mike in NC

    November 21, 2018 at 10:28 pm

    Fat Bastard just wants to kill some brown people. Think of it as a Thanksgiving gesture to please the base.

  61. 61.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 21, 2018 at 10:28 pm

    @debbie: Chain of Command. The same technicality that allowed Sheridan to blow off the Night Watch on Babylon 5

  62. 62.

    Keith P. P

    November 21, 2018 at 10:30 pm

    Can anyone name a federal law shit for brains hasn’t broken?

    Federal firearms regulations….unlicensed fishing in federal waters….*maybe* interstate drug trafficking.

  63. 63.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:34 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m getting tired of doing this, I really, really am. But I’m going to try one last time. Mattis has no ability to stop the President from ordering the deployment to the border. Mattis and his team can shape it, shape the Rules of Engagement, constrain its scope, bound the task and purpose. But the President has the authority to order it. And if he does, then Mattis has two choices: 1) resign or 2) implement the order. The former would not stop this. And given the President, and his demonstrated behavior with vacancies, he’d likely stick someone absolutely horrible in as interim acting secretary and then nominate Tom Cotton to permanently fill the position. The other option is to swallow some pride and execute the order, but only after you’ve shaped it to mitigate the worst parts of it.

    I think I can honestly say that I’m the only person here at Balloon Juice who has served as a senior advisor to a senior leader in the US government. Specifically, in my case, to general officers/flag officers at the 2 star level and higher and to Senior Executives at the Senior Executive 3 level and higher (and equivalents in other departments that have senior executive equivalents). There will always be decisions made that one doesn’t agree with. That go against all of the best advice that you’re being paid to provide. The job is to then do everything possible to execute the orders in such a way to minimize the damage you know is inherent in the order, maximize whatever possible benefits there might be, and stay current on the issue for when it comes back up for consideration so that you can hopefully change the decision making when that happens. If you resign in protest except for the most egregious of orders that one disagrees with, then one looses the ability to prevent the worst possible outcomes from happening. That is where Mattis and the Joint Chiefs are right now. You can only fall on your sword once…

  64. 64.

    dexwood

    November 21, 2018 at 10:35 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Oh, man, I knew there was something else I needed to do today. I am such a lazy slacker.

  65. 65.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:38 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: He’s not doing photo ops. He’s doing battlefield circulations with the troops. These are always accompanied by journalists. If he was visiting the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan or Germany or Belgium or South Korea or Japan there would be journalists. It isn’t that he’s doing them with Nielsen, its that Nielsen is piggybacking on his battlefield circulation.

  66. 66.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 10:39 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    No, Russians can fall on swords many times before zipping themselves up in a gym bag (no reference to Gym Jordan), before finally expiring of natural causes.

    ‘Merkins are such beta cucks.

  67. 67.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:39 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I am not disputing your expertise and agree that the biggest problem is the man on the top. At this point I am finding it difficult to trust anyone in this admin. That’s all.

  68. 68.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:40 pm

    @dexwood: Better get with it. You’ve only got an hour and 20 minutes left on the east coast!!!

  69. 69.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:41 pm

    @Jay: Like the man who turned Flynn.

    BREAKING NEWS: The head of Russia's GRU spy agency is reported dead “after a long and serious illness” https://t.co/g0nEiu1krt

    — Meduza in English (@meduza_en) November 21, 2018

  70. 70.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:42 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I understand that. And I apologize if that came off a bit harsh, especially the first sentence or so. But I know Mattis, though not well. And I’ve provided support for McMaster and he’s served as a reference for me. I have some amount of insight, at least, into these two.

  71. 71.

    Beautifulplumage

    November 21, 2018 at 10:43 pm

    Question: what are the chances that the plan is to have agent provocateurs within the caravan ready to give the military an excuse to use lethal force?

  72. 72.

    dexwood

    November 21, 2018 at 10:46 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:
    No hurry, Mountain time.

  73. 73.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:46 pm

    @Beautifulplumage: There is a concern about that. Apparently DHS has paid informants within the caravan.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/feds-have-paid-undercover-informants-migrant-caravan-n938416

  74. 74.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 10:47 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Novichok is apparently a real bitch to handle safely.

  75. 75.

    schrodingers_cat

    November 21, 2018 at 10:49 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: No worries. Off to bed now. Happy Thanksgiving in case I don’t see you tomorrow.

  76. 76.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 21, 2018 at 10:49 pm

    @Mary G: Nowadays, being on the board of an outfit that’s a con game is pretty much business as usual.

  77. 77.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 10:50 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I doubt the “quality” of the “informants”,

    Achmed Chalibli anyone?

  78. 78.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:50 pm

    @Jay: Apparently.

  79. 79.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:50 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: And to you!

  80. 80.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 10:51 pm

    @Jay: I’m trying to cut back, but you have as much Ahmad Chalibi as you like.

  81. 81.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 21, 2018 at 10:53 pm

    @Redshift: DHS sounded so much better in the original German: Heimatssicherheitshauptamt.

    A friend of mine altered this slightly to capture the Zeitgeist behind it: Heimatssicherheitshauptangst.

  82. 82.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 10:53 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Sticking to a Shiraz tonight.

  83. 83.

    NotMax

    November 21, 2018 at 10:59 pm

    @Jay

    Aussie wine, so a proper toast above the equator is “Up bottoms!”

    :)

  84. 84.

    waratah

    November 21, 2018 at 10:59 pm

    Adam, Mattis has some pressure from Congress not sure how this helps

    https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2018/11/20/warren-orourke-and-speier-question-mattis-over-border-deployments/

  85. 85.

    Mandalay

    November 21, 2018 at 11:00 pm

    @Mike in DC:

    The reaction to US troops shooting unarmed migrants, including women and children, would make Abu Ghraib look like a minor gaffe by comparison.

    That is obviously an apples to oranges comparison, and I’d put Abu Ghraib in the “Hitler” category in general: be very wary of comparing anything to Abu Ghraib, and/or the reaction to Abu Ghraib.

  86. 86.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 11:04 pm

    @waratah: Appropriate oversight conducted correctly is always helpful.

  87. 87.

    Platonailedit

    November 21, 2018 at 11:09 pm

    Either Mattis is incompetent (enough to be outmaneuvered) or is complicit with this treasonous admin. No amount of spin can polish this turd.

  88. 88.

    Cheryl Rofer

    November 21, 2018 at 11:09 pm

    January 3 cannot come too soon.

    OTOH, John Bolton seems not to be as powerful as he’d like to be. Ricardel was his person. He’s supposed to be a skilled bureaucratic infighter, but maybe things are so chaotic that his skills aren’t useful.

  89. 89.

    Ladyraxterinok

    November 21, 2018 at 11:10 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Isn’t there a Thurber short story where an absolutely horrible ‘national hero’ is pushed out of an upper apartment window by some prestigous officials?

    Of course, if I recall correctly, the man is some civilian who did something very big but who is also a personally hideous person. NOT an elected official!

  90. 90.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 11:12 pm

    @NotMax:

    This one’s a BC VQA, but from Ozzi rootstock, imported from Spain.

    Sorta just down the road from me, as we measure it up here, 200km.

  91. 91.

    Cheryl Rofer

    November 21, 2018 at 11:12 pm

    We learned this week that Trump really, really wanted to prosecute Hillary Rodham Clinton and James Comey. Probably still does.

    The fact that we keep learning these horrors suggests that there are more to be uncovered.

    We don’t know if any of them have to do with the nuclear briefcase, aka “the football.” Mattis likely does. He may be staying on for one reason: to deal with Trump on the day he requests that football.

  92. 92.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 21, 2018 at 11:13 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: Yep.

  93. 93.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 11:18 pm

    @Beautifulplumage:

    “Hi, my names, ummm, ummm, Manual Labor, yeah, that’s it.

    How would you like a free smartphone and some cash?

    All you have to is text me where you are from time to time.

    Oh, and if you see any al Quida, ISIS or MS-13, take their photoes and text them to me, I’ll give you an extra $500 bucks,

    Por Favour.”

  94. 94.

    Jay

    November 21, 2018 at 11:22 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    That explains the run on official NFL Footballs in November, 2016.

  95. 95.

    Bill Arnold

    November 21, 2018 at 11:30 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Mattis seems a bit gullible (or corrupt) or both in the whole Theranos fracas.

    I’ve been assuming gullible, which is not a good thing at the top levels of power. Elizabeth Holmes (and Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani) were convincing to a lot of people. Mattis does seem to have resisted the “turns everything to shit” field that surrounds DJT; he hasn’t gotten obviously worse in his tenure.
    Another link:
    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/378394-sec-charges-theranos-ceo-with-massive-fraud

  96. 96.

    debbie

    November 21, 2018 at 11:48 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    It’s not just Trump. I’ve got a brother or two who would still support that.

  97. 97.

    Beautifulplumage

    November 21, 2018 at 11:57 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: and how do any caravan “leaders” intercept this threat? Are there any actions/procedures/techniques a loose-knit org like this could use?

  98. 98.

    NotMax

    November 21, 2018 at 11:59 pm

    @Ladyraxterinok

    The Greatest Man in the World. Good TV adaptation done on PBS in 1980.

    Just looked and no longer on Netflix. Available for streaming free on the FilmRise channel if you have access to that.

  99. 99.

    James E Powell

    November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am

    @debbie:

    It’s not just Trump. I’ve got a brother or two who would still support that.

    Same here. They’ve been told so many times by people they trust that Hillary Clinton committed a crime that they regard it as an undeniable fact.

  100. 100.

    Ruckus

    November 22, 2018 at 12:12 am

    @Platonailedit:
    Not commenting on anyone specific’s skills but working in any bureaucracy, especially a big one almost never goes exactly how you might think.
    An example. New captain on ship, wants his phone moved. (the holder is welded to the wall, it’s not a desk phone, pitching and rolling). Asks XO to have it done. About 10-15 minutes later I’m told that I better get my ass up to the captains quarters 10 minutes ago or I’ll be flogged. Get there the new captain asks me what I need. I tell him what I’d been told. “Fucking assholes.” On this ship I was only 4 steps from the captain and the story had escalated each step from “When someone has free time, could they look into what it would take?” to the above.
    Every step has a new interpretation and a level of, oh fuck, or who gives a shit, along with all the prejudices and self servitude that all of us have to some degree.

  101. 101.

    Kdaug

    November 22, 2018 at 12:19 am

    All it’s going to take is one RWNJ, inside the zone or out, either side of the border.

    A three-round burst, and this whole thing is going to be a clusterfuck the likes we haven’t seen.

    And there are plenty of groups eager to see that happen.

  102. 102.

    Mary G

    November 22, 2018 at 12:23 am

    All these stable geniuses:

    Trump defender Joseph diGenova: The Chief Justice's statement that you can't reduce federal judges to the Presidents who appointed them is "blatantly political," "unforgivable," "arrogant," "strange," and proves the Chief Justice's "pro-Democratic bias."https://t.co/hv67ptyTWp— Orin Kerr (@OrinKerr) November 22, 2018

  103. 103.

    Kdaug

    November 22, 2018 at 12:29 am

    @Kdaug: Should note, I’m not talking about USMIL personnel. I’m talking about home-grown neo-Nazi fringe groups.

  104. 104.

    Mandalay

    November 22, 2018 at 12:50 am

    @Mary G: That comment dovetails very neatly with one from another genius in the stable:

    the powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned

    So many stable geniuses.

  105. 105.

    Duane

    November 22, 2018 at 12:51 am

    @Redshift: Absolutely right about DHS. It’s not been around that long. We can do better than the cesspool of inequity they are.Kamala Harris went easy on ICE by calling it a perception of terror. It’s real, and needs to stop.

  106. 106.

    BruceFromOhio

    November 22, 2018 at 1:02 am

    Mattis’ objection, as of late October, was the genesis of a highly controversial White House memorandum issued late Tuesday explicitly authorizing the potential use of lethal force against the unarmed civilians of the migrant caravan.

    THE FASCISTS ORDER YOU TO SHOOT BROWN PEOPLE NOW

  107. 107.

    Joey Maloney

    November 22, 2018 at 1:04 am

    @Procopius: At Hawaii Volcanoes National Park it’s a felony to remove lava rocks from the park. It’s also a felony to harass or disturb honu, green sea turtles, while they’re on the beach – you have to keep IIRC 5 meters distance.

    Since shit-for-brains hasn’t ever been, he’s probably safe on those counts. Though it wouldn’t surprise me to find out he’s paying other people to break the laws so he can huckster Trump-branded rocks and turtle shells.

  108. 108.

    Joey Maloney

    November 22, 2018 at 1:07 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Seal Team 6 deals with the idiot in the Oval Office.

    I have feared/fantasized that he would meet his end from the muzzle of someone on his protective force who Just Couldn’t Take Any More. A double-tap, a quick surrender, and a public statement that he is proud to plead guilty to save the Republic.

  109. 109.

    Darkrose

    November 22, 2018 at 1:12 am

    @Mary G: Thank you! I keep thinking about this, and how Mattis insisted that Elizabeth Holmes was one of the most impressive people he’d ever met. (Read Bad Blood–it’s fascinating). I can’t help but question his judgement after being taken in my a con artist with zero actual accomplishments to her name.

  110. 110.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 22, 2018 at 10:15 am

    @Joey Maloney: It’s happened in a lot of other countries. Indira Gandhi was killed by her own bodyguards. Anwar Sadat in a reviewing stand during a parade by his own troops. Our decline into Banana Republic status will be nearly complete if it takes that to get rid of this clown, but the GOP is busy making it possible.

  111. 111.

    polyorchnid octopunch

    November 22, 2018 at 10:30 am

    Hey Adam, just dropping a quick note to tell you that the 18 second pause before the page would start loading has been fixed. It started acting like it should yesterday sometime. Thank you for kicking that upstairs, it was getting frustrating :)

    Cheers!

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