Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

I’m starting to think Jesus may have made a mistake saving people with no questions asked.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

People are complicated. Love is not.

Everybody saw this coming.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

Nothing worth doing is easy.

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

“Just close your eyes and kiss the girl and go where the tilt-a-whirl takes you.” ~OzarkHillbilly

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Russiagate Open Thread: Mueller Uses Flynn As An Object Lesson

Russiagate Open Thread: Mueller Uses Flynn As An Object Lesson

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And now the mainstream media pick up what mere bloggers were gloating yesterday. Vanity Fair, “Mueller’s Heavily Redacted Memo on Michael Flynn Is a Warning to Trumpworld”:

President Donald Trump’s mafioso message praising Roger Stone for his “guts” and urging him to stay strong—a move that legal experts, including George Conway, have argued could amount to witness tampering—was swiftly answered by Robert Mueller on Tuesday night, when the special counsel released a long-awaited sentencing memo on Michael Flynn. Citing Flynn’s “substantial assistance” in the ongoing Justice Department probe, the special counsel recommended a light sentence for the disgraced retired Army general—one that may not include any time behind bars. “A sentence at the low end of the guideline range—including a sentence that does not impose a term of incarceration—is appropriate and warranted,” the memo reads…

The clearest takeaway from the sentencing memo is that Mueller places a premium on cooperation. Flynn’s one charge of lying to investigators carries a maximum of five years in prison, but the special counsel set the ceiling for his misdeeds at just six months. “The usefulness of the defendant’s assistance is connected to its timeliness,” the memo reads. “The defendant began providing information to the government not long after the government first sought his cooperation.”…

Though he has frequently predicted his own indictment, Stone has said he has not been contacted by the special counsel. If he is, perhaps he will reconsider the strategy he laid out in his Sunday interview, where he declared, “There’s no circumstance under which I would testify against the president.” Flynn’s sentencing sends a clear signal that Mueller is prepared to reward cooperation with leniency—a message even longtime Trump fixer and lawyer Michael Cohen seems to have picked up on. And Trump’s tweets are hardly a guarantee that a presidential pardon is on the table.

(Yeah, let’s don’t all get our hopes up too high about ol’ Rog.)

And in USAToday, NeverTrump conservative Tom Nichols adds helpfully/hopefully, “Mueller’s redactions suggest more prosecutions are in the works and he is not ready to wrap up his investigation of an unprecedented national scandal.”

Reader Interactions

93Comments

  1. 1.

    randy khan

    I want Stone to be stupidly loyal or, even better, to discover that he has nothing to trade that Mueller wants.

    But, yeah, the best way to read this is that people who cooperate will benefit significantly, and people who don’t will discover what the full weight of the law really is. It creates what is not so much a loyalty test as a trust test – can people involved trust Trump to save them, either by firing Mueller or pardoning them if they don’t cooperate?

  2. 2.

    SenyorDave

    I’d like to see Stone flip because he seems like the type who would keep everything just in case he needed to have a get out of jail free card. OTOH, dying in an 8×6 cell seems like a fitting end to his miserable existence.

  5. 5.

    Mandalay

    @randy khan:

    people who cooperate will benefit significantly, and people who don’t will discover what the full weight of the law really is.

    Except Papadopoulos lied to the feds and all but said “F*** you!” to Mueller after he had pleaded guilty, and yet he still only got 14 days in the slammer.

    I just hope Papadopoulos squealed like a piglet to Mueller, because if he didn’t he got off very lightly indeed.

  6. 6.

    Immanentize

    Just FYI — potential targets who have already flipped always say they will never flip. I don’t count Stone among this group, but perhaps Corsi.

  7. 7.

    ruemara

    I personally hope they all get a polonium injection after they flip. but I can be a little vengeful.

  8. 8.

    Immanentize

    @Mandalay: It is possible Papadopoulos gave Mueller what he needed. Or perhaps he really knew very little. But, the reason Flynn gets his sentencing before Christmas is because Mueller has Flynn’s son always by the short hairs. That is why Flynn sang. Likewise, I suspect that Mueller can invite Papadapoulas’ Italian? Russian? wife to vist the Grand Jury at really any moment. But that probably would be a huge distraction for the Mueller team. But maybe not for other US Attorneys.

  10. 10.

    germy

    God is good.

    To those who have supported us throughout this process….

    Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    I will never forget you.

    — Michael Flynn Jr⭐️⭐️⭐️ (@mflynnJR) December 5, 2018

    Some of the replies are hilarious.

  12. 12.

    geg6

    Ha! That last tweet is exactly what I said to my John after Rachel got done reading it last night. So politely said, but such contempt for them all underneath the polite words.

  13. 13.

    TenguPhule

    @randy khan:

    can people involved trust Trump to save them, either by firing Mueller or pardoning them if they don’t cooperate?

    NO, SATSQ.

    This is the Prisoner’s Dilemma where everyone dies at the end, Dave.

  15. 15.

    Jharp

    “the unspoken thing in the Flynn memo recommending no prison time is to tell Manafort and tons of others ‘this coulda been you’”

    More so to tell the fence sitters that “this still can be you”.

    And I’ll bet it works.

  16. 16.

    TenguPhule

    @ruemara:

    I personally hope they all get a polonium injection after they flip. but I can be a little vengeful.

    I eagerly await future reports of their suicides in the bathtub, fully dressed, by shooting themselves in the back of the head and then fitting themselves into a duffel bag to avoid making a mess.

  17. 17.

    TenguPhule

    @debbie:

    Wow, no Trumpeets since before the funeral. Something must be up.

    Maybe his phone has finally committed suicide rather then continue raping the english language.

  18. 18.

    Jharp

    @Mandalay:

    Can’t recall the details but I believe Mueller is not finished with Papadopoulus.

    Still can’t figure out what Papadopoulus thought he had to gain by being an asshole towards Mueller.

  19. 19.

    Schlemazel

    @TenguPhule:
    I wonder if staff is not keeping him medicated. I have felt that he was when down in Argentina. Then he had that bit of a meltdown. I visualize a couple of staffers chasing him around the Lincoln Bedroom (Not many know this but Lincoln was a Republican!) cornering him and then pinching his nose closed until he has to open his mouth to breath. They jam the pills down his throat then massage his neck until they are gone

  20. 20.

    Betty Cracker

    It’ll be worth Flynn getting off the hook if Mueller manages to bag a Trump or three and hopefully Pence into the bargain. But it’s still galling as hell that the prick and his deranged whelp are getting away with their treasonous actions. I’ll never forget watching him strut around like a bantam rooster at the MAGA rallies, crowing about how Hillary Clinton should be locked up, when all the while he was selling out his country. Flynn is scum.

  22. 22.

    scott (the other one)

    I’m sure many on here have seen that compilation of clips Morning Joe ran of Trump wandering around/off. Many of those are pretty unambiguously signs of dementia. But I’m pretty sure the one in Argentina this week, where he left the stage suddenly, was precipitated by incontinence. At least one of the Oval Office instances looks like the same reason to me.

  23. 23.

    TenguPhule

    @Betty Cracker:

    But it’s still galling as hell that the prick and his deranged whelp are getting away with their treasonous actions.

    Mueller’s bargain with Flynn does not bind the US military.

  24. 24.

    piratedan

    @TenguPhule: since he was retired, I believe it does… however, it doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be repurcussions at the State level, but for the NSA, I’m not sure how those would apply. Now what I don;t know is how this plays with the footsy that he was playing with the Turks or if this is also covering those sets of transgressions….

  26. 26.

    A Ghost To Most

    I am hoping that part of the punishment of Flynn is forfeiture of his not inconsiderable military pension. That would hit him where he lives.

  27. 27.

    debbie

    Okay, I’ve found a few posts today about Wisconsin, but nothing from the Legal Eagles around here. Is there any legal recourse to right the GOP’s wrongs?

  29. 29.

    Mandalay

    @Jharp:

    Still can’t figure out what Papadopoulus thought he had to gain by being an asshole towards Mueller.

    I can’t either, but my guess is money. There is a gofundme for Papadopoulos which is not doing very well, but giving Mueller the middle finger probably helps brings in some $$$ from the rubes.

  30. 30.

    Jay

    @Mandalay:

    Papadoc sang like a bird, but he’s a moron with a Red Sparrow wife. Once he was back under her control he tried to deny everything and twist it on the twitters while the Red Sparrow toured the Faux Studios begging Dolt 45 for a pardon.

    He’s become less a less useful to Putin, and after the Manifort case is made public, he’s useless and a liability.

    Remember how Mifsud made a brief appearance in late October , ( via his lawyer), with a June dated letter, offering his testimony of knowing nothing, but only to the Senate Commitee, behind closed doors?

    Wonder what happened to him and if anybody will ever find his grave?

  32. 32.

    piratedan

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: then the question would be, considering the current structure of the Military JCOS and who would be in charge of their Judge Advocates Office, do you throw down the gauntlet and do that? How pissed are they at what has transpired?

  35. 35.

    Patricia Kayden

    Manafort is going to be very hurt when he finds out that Trump can’t pardon him for any convictions in state courts. He’s not paying attention.

  37. 37.

    Schlemazel

    @Litlebritdifrnt:
    I saw that too but the great gazoogle is not providing any confirmation. Dense hired a criminal lawyer back in July of 2017.

    The other frustrating search I hope someone can help me end is the exact quote about compromise being the same as date rape. I believe it was evil muppet Grover that said it but now that I need it I can’t find it

  39. 39.

    TenguPhule

    @piratedan:

    How pissed are they at what has transpired?

    I would hope the heads of JAG still consider treason in service to the enemy a serious offense.

  40. 40.

    A Ghost To Most

    @piratedan:
    I’d call it likely he gets recalled to answer for this. The other generals, etc can’t let this stain pass unnoticed.

  41. 41.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @debbie: I’m not a legal eagle, but it has seemed to me that what the Republicans are doing in their state lame-duck sessions has to be challengeable in court. Lawrence Tribe agrees, fwiw. But I’m surprised I haven’t seen more discussion of it.

  42. 42.

    Mandalay

    The sentencing document for Michael Flynn that was released yesterday is heavily redacted. Since Matthew Whitaker is now AG, and Mueller’s boss, he can presumably get access to an unredacted copy of that document.

    Does anyone know whether there is anything preventing him from simply giving that document to Trump from a legal perspective? Would Whitaker be committing a crime if he did that?

    Or what if Whitaker did something more slippery, such as reading the document very carefully, and then verbally communicating its content to Trump’s lawyers. That would probably be very hard to prove, but would it be a crime?

  43. 43.

    TenguPhule

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Manafort is going to be very hurt when he finds out that Trump can’t pardon him for any convictions in state courts. He’s not paying attention.

    On the contrary, Manafort has more immediate and life threatening concerns to worry about before state court.

  45. 45.

    TenguPhule

    @Mandalay:

    Does anyone know whether there is anything preventing him from simply giving that document to Trump from a legal perspective? Would Whitaker be committing a crime if he did that?

    Sadly no. Remember, Trump is final authority *SPIT* on all classification.

  47. 47.

    TenguPhule

    House Democrats look to roll back little-known rule allowing guns in the Capitol

    House Democrats are looking to roll back a little-known, five-decade-old Capitol Hill regulation that allows members of Congress to keep guns in their offices and carry them around the Capitol grounds.

    The effort has been spearheaded by Rep. Jared Huffman (D-Calif.), who has pressed Capitol Hill authorities to revisit the 1967 regulation for months, and he now has the support of Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who has been nominated by her party to become House speaker early next year.

    “I don’t think we can just keep looking the other way or sweep this issue under the rug,” Huffman said in an interview, citing potential threats to public safety and national security from a lost or stolen weapon — or an overheated lawmaker. “Our political climate is too volatile and there are too many warning signs that we need to address things like this.”

  51. 51.

    Jay

    @Mandalay:

    Rosenstien signed the paperwork.

    The general concencus is that Meuller and Rosenstien informally “read him in” on some of the contents and Whittaker, given his current liabilities and the extent of the Trumpian Crimes, has elected not to add another felony to his rap sheet,

    So he’s just going to sit there, collect a nice paycheque, add to his pension, and ride out the storm as long as he can.

  52. 52.

    TenguPhule

    @Mandalay:

    So presumably Trump is already fully aware of what is in the sentencing document for Flynn?

    Briefed certainly. Did he retain anything from the briefing, now that’s the $24 question.

  53. 53.

    lamh36

    Hello…I am back from LaLaLand!

    ICYMI: I got tickets to be in the audience for a last minute taping of Will & Grace to record some scenes they needed to have redone, and to also film 4 new scenes for an upcoming episode. So it was not the full 4 person cast, but it was half, Eric McCormack (Will Truman) & Sean Hayes (Jack McFarland)!! I got to see one scene with Eric McCormack and Robert Klein for an upcoming episode. And also got to see 4 scenes with Sean Hayes and Andrea Martin!!!

    Short observations…Eric McCormack is so skinny…and Sean Hayes, looks exactly like he does on screen, and he is funny as hell…and very engaging with the audience. Andrea Martin had us ALL cracking up…she never did the same scene the same way, each time was different and funnier each time.

    After it was all over and as we were leaving, the audience prep guy gave me his copy of the script for 1/2 draft of the scenes with Sean Hayes!!

    https://twitter.com/psddluva4evah/status/1070345146124783616

    IT WAS AWESOME (even without the ladies).

    I also managed to have time to hang with a friend and former coworker at Universal Studios City Walk

    I’m back now…sitting on the couch…surfing the net. But this time last night…I was watching Sean Hayes working his magic!

  56. 56.

    Flanders Other Neighbor

    @Mandalay:
    The comments seem to be a whole lot less sympathetic than the one for my friend who lost everything in Paradise last month.

  58. 58.

    Eric S.

    Ok jackals. I have a culinary challenge. Strap in. I promised to make treats for my Improv class, 8 people plus the teacher, for this Sunday. I have one problem “child” that has a shitton of dietary restrictions. Allow me to quote:

    Here’s the full list, just so you know — no gluten, dairy, sunflower, pumpkin, strawberries, apples, onion, garlic (a little garlic is ok but a lot makes me sick)

    I need ideas. HELLLLP!!!!!

  61. 61.

    ruemara

    @Eric S.: Ah, I would make a warm buttered barley. Cooked barley grains, Earth Balance vegan spread or olive oil. fresh basil mince with salt & pepper. You can have a creamy feel with soy creamer. diced red bell peppers would add a nice touch of color to the final dish. For dessert, you could bake some pears alone, poach them in wine then use a reduction for glaze or make a clafoutis with other fruits. Cook the meat separate from onions or garlic, but do cook the onions & garlic in another pan as an option for those who can eat it. Maybe a lemon pepper chicken?

    just saw the vegetarian thing. seitan strips or tofu sautee.

  63. 63.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    Oh don’t worry. I’m sure the “conservative” majority on the SC will twist itself into a pretzel to justify the WI GOP’s actions, by saying it still is a Republican form of government. It has the Republican in the name, see? That will later be expanded to all 50 states.

    /s

  66. 66.

    JR

    @Eric S.: okay, so that’s nutty. but nuts are in so… you can make something based on almond flour using eggs as a binder. I’d start there. If you need to be vegan that works too. Almond flour is commonly used in gluten free baking.

  68. 68.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    In seriousness, I am not a lawyer, so I don’t how such an effort would be effected by this:
    Wikipedia:

    Luther v. Borden, 48 U.S. (7 How.) 1 (1849),[1] was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States established the political question doctrine in controversies arising under the Guarantee Clause of Article Four of the United States Constitution (Art. IV, § 4).

    Martin Luther was part of the Dorr Rebellion, an attempt to overthrow the charter government of Rhode Island that had stymied the efforts of those who wished to broaden the voting rights of state residents. The rebellion began as a political effort but turned violent. Martin Luther was arrested by Luther M. Borden, a state official, who searched his home and allegedly damaged his property. Luther contended that the charter government was not “republican” in nature because it restricted the electorate to only the most propertied classes; because Article Four states that “the United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,” Luther argued that the Supreme Court should find that Borden acted without proper authority. In doing so, the Court would necessarily find that the “Dorrite” alternative republican government was the lawful government of Rhode Island, superseding the charter government.

    The Supreme Court found that it was up to the President and Congress to enforce this clause and that, as an inherently political question, it was outside the purview of the Court.

    The ruling established that the “republican form of government” clause of Article Four was non-justiciable, a ruling that still holds today. However, two decades after Luther v. Borden was decided, the Fourteenth Amendment, which included the Equal Protection Clause, was added to the Constitution. Baker v. Carr, in which the Court found that the Court could examine Tennessee’s apportionment of legislative districts, was based on the Equal Protection Clause, and many subsequent cases that covered much of the same ground as Luther v. Borden followed suit.

  69. 69.

    Barbara

    @Eric S.: cherry or peach crisp (unfortunately not seasonal) with earth balance and gluten free flour in the topping, or just omit the flour and double the rolled oats. Or, idiot cookies with dairy free milk. I make vegan desserts all the time, but making them gluten free is not a hill I have had to climb yet.

  71. 71.

    Eric S.

    The onion and garlic thing threw me back to the drawing board. I was just thai veggie lettuce wraps.

    I like some of what I’m reading. Keep the ideas flowing please.

  75. 75.

    Schlemazel

    @Eric S.:
    CUt fresh veggies with hummus dip.
    Macaroon cookies

    Daughter was a chef at a very exclusive resort & got a list twice as long from a bride to be about their reception dinner. If I can find it I will post it, it is hilarious. In addition to what you have there they had no nuts, no mushrooms. no nightshades (eggplant, tomato, potato) no fish or red meat and a few other things.

  78. 78.

    JGabriel

    Anne Laurie @ Top:

    (Yeah, let’s don’t all get our hopes up too high about ol’ Rog.)

    I’m not sure what’s being cautioned against here: hope that Stone co-operates, and brings down the whole treasonous GOP infrastructure; or hope that Stone doesn’t co-operate, and gets to show off his Nixon tats in prison gen. pop.

  85. 85.

    Yarrow

    @Eric S.: Here’s my suggestion. Make whatever you want to make for the rest of the class. Then bring something simple for her. I’d recommend asking her what she likes to eat. That is a tough list and if she’s living with it she knows what she can eat and likes. Ask her to help you come up with something.

    Also, making vegan treats with that many restrictions means everyone else is held hostage to her food requirements. Earth Balance uses things like soy oil and canola oil, which many people don’t like and want to avoid, so by meeting her needs you may be causing problems for other people.

  88. 88.

    Hkedi [K. T. Conqueror]

    @Eric S.: Savory or sweet treats? If a sweet treat, I’d suggest looking into an Agar dessert (Agar is basically Vegetarian Jello, made from seaweed), or a Hawaiian Traditional dessert, Haupia. This is a mixture of Arrowroot/Cornstarch (Arrowroot is better) Coconut milk, sugar and some water. Here’s a Recipe https://www.whats4eats.com/desserts/haupia-recipe.

    I’ll think a bit more on savory treats.

  89. 89.

    trnc

    And now the mainstream media pick up what mere bloggers were gloating yesterday. Vanity Fair, “Mueller’s Heavily Redacted Memo on Michael Flynn Is a Warning to Trumpworld”:

    NC teabagger Mark Meadows said, “I know everyone will be talking about the redactions, but you have to look at what isn’t in the filing. I think it’s good news for the president.” Of course, he knows the redacted parts are rightfully the stuff of nightmares for President Individual 1 and his enablers. I understand that teabaggers have to lie to their constituents to keep the grift going, but this example is one I don’t get. What does it matter if he convinces every racist in his district that there really isn’t anything there? When indictments based on the redacted material start to fly, what’s Meadows’ response going to be? “Wow, I did not see that coming. i just thought they ran out of whiteout.” I mean, really?

  90. 90.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Eric S.: I can think of many vegetarian tea time snacks from India, like idli with coconut chutney (steamed lentil and rice cakes),dhokla (steamed chickpea flour and lentil cakes). They are not difficult to make but you may not have all the ingredients at hand. Pohe is another easy one (flaked rice cereal)

  91. 91.

    Ken

    @trnc:

    When indictments based on the redacted material start to fly, what’s Meadows’ response going to be?

    “As long as the checks have cleared, who cares?”

  93. 93.

    Matt McIrvin

    AAARGH managed to stir up some people I didn’t know were QAnon fruitloops on Twitter, who are now telling me all about how Flynn revealed all of Obama and Hillary’s crimes to Mueller…

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