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You are here: Home / Politics / An Unexamined Scandal / Just another manic Wednesday

Just another manic Wednesday

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271Comments

  1. 1.

    Cermet

    I see he got off easy. Not sure that is right. He held back and is protecting criminals (not necessarily the orange fart cloud.) As such, he should have gotten a minimum of four years.

  2. 2.

    hells littlest angel

    Such is the state of justice in this country that it’s impressive he has to serve any time at all.

    Oh well. He’d better sing a really good song.

  4. 4.

    The Dangerman

    I say he can work some of that off by giving up Sean Hannity.

    ETA: I assume he’s already given up as much on Trump as he’s got.

  5. 5.

    Elizabelle

    Curious how long he will be in prison, with a three year sentence. Is it the full 36 months?

    He coulda done a lot worse.

  7. 7.

    Frankensteinbeck

    What’s interesting is that we’re still in the layer of criminals that Mueller wants to flip. The goal of such flipping is to work your way up to being able to absolutely nail to the wall the criminals you think are truly important. So… who is in that tier for Mueller?

  9. 9.

    Corner Stone

    Anyone ever had heated socks? I need some that are fairly loose, not compression type, that can be heated over and over again.

  11. 11.

    West of the Rockies

    Is he going to dis-Barred (spelling)? Can’t imagine he’ll be practicing law other than maybe as DUI king of Long Island or such.

  13. 13.

    Corner Stone

    I think 36 months sends a pretty good signal. Mueller et al have set it up so that people in this mess know lying to prosecutors/FBI is the best way to get a room booked at the Gray Bar Hotel for yourself.
    I’ll just be glad when we finally don’t see any more Michael Cohen interlocutors tell us his inner most thoughts anymore, like the despicable Emily Jane Fox or Donnie Deutsch.

  14. 14.

    Betty Cracker

    Via WaPo:

    Cohen made a tearful apology during the hearing, but decried what he called a “blind loyalty” to his former boss “that led me to choose a path of darkness over light.” At times stopping to gain control of his emotions, Cohen said, “time and time again, I felt it was my duty to cover up his dirty deeds.”

    “I stand before your honor humbly and painfully aware that we are here today for one reason, because of my actions that I pled guilty to,” Cohen said. “I take full responsibility for each act that I pled guilty to, the personal ones to me and those involving the president of the United States of America.”

    Sounds like he’s trying to screw the shitgibbon to the wall as hard as he can. Good.

  20. 20.

    Elizabelle

    @Corner Stone: I wonder if Trump will be alive when Cohen gets out.

    Anything could happen, and Trump does not appear a healthy man, in oleaginous body or demented mind.

  23. 23.

    Elizabelle

    Photo of Cohen with his family. Daughter (on crutches) has legs so thin I wonder if she is anorexic.

    What pain his family has been through.

  26. 26.

    Raoul

    McConnel apparently declined to comment on the sentencing. To which I say, Mitch is the cancer gene at the center of our American metastasis. Trump is just the biggest and ugliest tumor.

  28. 28.

    Spanky

    @Betty Cracker:

    Sounds like he’s trying to screw the shitgibbon to the wall as hard as he can. Good.

    I don’t want it to sound like he’s screwing anyone. I want it to be as cold and dispassionate an indictment of that whole criminal cabal as possible

  29. 29.

    Yarrow

    Cohen also has to pay some money.

    COHEN SENTENCED TO THREE YEARS IN PRISON.

    Also hit with forfeiture of $500,000, restitution of $1.4 million and a fine of $50,000.

    As judge read sentence, Cohen closed his eyes and shook his head slightly as if in disbelief, Bloomberg News reports.

    — Jennifer Jacobs (@JenniferJJacobs) December 12, 2018

  31. 31.

    Bostonian

    So, if a fellow gets 36 months in prison for doing something illegal that some other fellow – let’s just call him Individual 1 – asked him to do, should that other guy get time too?

    Asking for a friend who rigged a few witches back in his day.

  33. 33.

    germy

    Yes, Michael Cohen was Trump's personal lawyer, but more recently he was Deputy Finance Chair of the Republican National Committee. The Deputy Finance Chair of the RNC was just sentenced to 3 years in prison for felonies committed during the 2016 presidential election campaign.— Matt McDermott (@mattmfm) December 12, 2018

  34. 34.

    Corner Stone

    @Bostonian:

    let’s just call him Individual 1 – asked him to do, should that other guy get time too?

    Apparently every single pundit has been told to state as fact that a sitting president can not be indicted. So, the answer is no. We have a King.

  37. 37.

    Jeffro

    I just took the WaPo’s article about Cohen’s sentence, changed “Donald Trump” to “Hillary Clinton” and sent it to my RWNJ dad and bro, asking them if they’d be calling for a deeper investigation (or flat-out impeachment, or drawing and quartering) into Clinton given everything her lawyer just went to prison for. Will let y’all know what they have to say…=)

  45. 45.

    cain

    @Raoul:

    McConnel apparently declined to comment on the sentencing. To which I say, Mitch is the cancer gene at the center of our American metastasis. Trump is just the biggest and ugliest tumor.

    The world would be a better place a hole to hell opened up and swallowed McConnell and left behind a cute dog instead.

  48. 48.

    germy

    Every time I find myself feeling sympathy for Cohen, I remember he’s the sort of thug who says things to journalists like, “I’m warning you, tread very fucking lightly, because what I’m going to do to you is going to be fucking disgusting. You understand me?” https://t.co/KBlHA8DvPp
    — Helen Kennedy (@HelenKennedy) December 12, 2018

  49. 49.

    catclub

    @Corner Stone: Suppose Trump murders Melania in a fit of rage. Still impossible to indict?
    I was just wondering if convicted ex-presidents get a SS protection team while in the pen.

  52. 52.

    donnah

    I feel zero pity for these criminals or their families. The bums cheated, lied, stole, and then tried to cover up serious crimes and they deserve worse than what they’re getting. Greed and self-importance got them this far and I hope they acknowledge that to themselves.

  54. 54.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    Charles Colson, Nixon’s “hatchet man,” got a one-to- three-year sentence. He served seven months.

  57. 57.

    Yarrow

    @Spanky: It’s a tweet from Rick Wilson with an image of a deleted tweet from Cohen on December 19, 2015 that says: “@HillaryClinton when you go to prison for defrauding America and perjury, your room and board with be free!”

  60. 60.

    Fester Addams

    Anyone know how may indoor tennis courts they have at FCI Otisville? Google Earth shows just the one outdoor tennis court.

  62. 62.

    Corner Stone

    @catclub: Apparently, if he rage killed his wife simply to earn some sympathy votes to *become* president then it wouldn’t matter if he did it. IMO, that is essentially the argument being made now by pundits. Sure, he conspired with a foreign adversary to *win* the presidency but now that he’s a sitting president he can’t be indicted for it.

  63. 63.

    TenguPhule

    @Cermet:

    As such, he should have gotten a minimum of four years.

    If Cohen gets stuck in general population, I’ll be satisfied.

  65. 65.

    Jeffro

    @germy:

    So the GOP is less a political party and more a criminal enterprise.

    Why, you could almost say that it…and the NRA…and the Trumpov Org…are racketeer-influenced and corrupt organizations, couldn’t you?

  71. 71.

    Jeffro

    @Corner Stone: I wonder what those pundits would say about 65M voters being denied their franchise due to the criminal acts of a corrupt organization working in concert with a hostile foreign power? Do those 65M people just have to lump it? Democracy only counts as long as you’re ALSO willing to do whatever it takes to win?

    No matter what you do to get elected, you get to stay president…and while you’re president, no matter what is revealed about how you got there, and no matter what you do while you’re there, you get to stay president. Hmm…I wonder if the pundits could tell us if this applies to all presidents, or just Republican ones?

    Where is my bat?

  74. 74.

    Mart

    @Corner Stone: Years ago my dad around 80 flew from Phoenix to visit us in Chicago in March. Temps were seasonably low – in the 20’s and low 30’s. He was miserable. Was thinking of moving close to us, after his visit, no way in hell.

  75. 75.

    TenguPhule

    @Jeffro:

    Democracy only counts as long as you’re ALSO willing to do whatever it takes to win?

    Yes. If you create a set of rules and then don’t do whatever it takes to enforce them equally on all parties, this is what happens.

  78. 78.

    Yarrow

    On the other side of the pond, getting the impression Theresa May may survive the no confidence vote.

  80. 80.

    TenguPhule

    @Yarrow:

    On the other side of the pond, getting the impression Theresa May may survive the no confidence vote.

    No doubt. The problem for her party is that every other alternative to replace her is worse.

    Bobo, for fucks sake is a viable choice.

  81. 81.

    NotMax

    @West of the Rockies

    Applicable NY law:

    4. a. Any person being an attorney and counsellor-at-law who shall be convicted of a felony as defined in paragraph e of this subdivision, shall upon such conviction, cease to be an attorney and counsellor-at-law, or to be competent to practice law as such.

    b. Whenever any attorney and counsellor-at-law shall be convicted of a felony as defined in paragraph e of this subdivision, there may be presented to the appellate division of the supreme court a certified or exemplified copy of the judgment of such conviction, and thereupon the name of the person so convicted shall, by order of the court, be struck from the roll of attorneys.

    c. Whenever an attorney shall be convicted of a crime in a court of the United States or of any state, territory or district, including this state, whether by a plea of guilty or nolo contendere or from a verdict after trial or otherwise, the attorney shall file, within thirty days thereafter, with the appellate division of the supreme court, the record of such conviction.

    The failure of the attorney to so file shall be deemed professional misconduct provided, however, that the appellate division may upon application of the attorney, grant an extension upon good cause shown.

    d. For purposes of this subdivision, the term serious crime shall mean any criminal offense denominated a felony under the laws of any state, district or territory or of the United States which does not constitute a felony under the laws of this state, and any other crime a necessary element of which, as determined by statutory or common law definition of such crime, includes interference with the administration of justice, false swearing, misrepresentation, fraud, willful failure to file income tax returns, deceit, bribery, extortion, misappropriation, theft, or an attempt or conspiracy or solicitation of another to commit a serious crime.

    e. For purposes of this subdivision, the term felony shall mean any criminal offense classified as a felony under the laws of this state or any criminal offense committed in any other state, district, or territory of the United States and classified as a felony therein which if committed within this state, would constitute a felony in this state.
    Source

  83. 83.

    TenguPhule

    Who’s most at risk from the Russia investigation? It just might be the Democrats.
    By Megan McArdle

    Bloody Bill’s replacement for being always wrong is off to a good start.

  84. 84.

    Wendell Thomas

    @Elizabelle: It’s a federal sentence so he has to serve 85%. So that is 30.6 months before release. Now it is rare but they can do a downward departure of the time he got if he continues to coooerate. Rare but possible.
    .

  85. 85.

    TenguPhule

    @oatler.:

    I imagine it would be more like the prison scene in Goodfellas where they’re frying steaks and slicing garlic.

    Cohen can only dream of ever having that much heft in the prison system.

  86. 86.

    Spanky

    Aw jeez … Well, I clicked on it so you don’t have to. Another McArglebargle turd dropped over at WaPo:

    Who’s most at risk from the Russia investigation? It just might be the Democrats.

    Link? Are you kidding?

  87. 87.

    TenguPhule

    Chaos and the chocolate factory as leak smothers German street

    A street in a western German town got a repaving worthy of Willy Wonka when a tonne of chocolate flowed out of a factory and solidified on the pavement.

    The German newspaper Soester Anzeiger reported that a “small technical defect” involving a storage tank caused the chocolate to spill out from the DreiMeister chocolate factory in Westönnen.

    After hitting the chilly pavement, the milk chocolate quickly hardened.

    Germany’s infrastructure Week is making us look bad.

  88. 88.

    Corner Stone

    @TenguPhule: The Democrats are in danger of being proven competent at their job of oversight. That alone could end any chance they have for electoral success in 2020.

  89. 89.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Elizabelle:

    Photo of Cohen with his family. Daughter (on crutches) has legs so thin I wonder if she is anorexic.

    That was my immediate thought when I saw that picture. The kids look pretty stoic, but the look on his wife’s face is excruciating.

  90. 90.

    catclub

    @TenguPhule: He is very plugged in with Russian mobsters. So he might have some heft.
    s/very plugged in/ reported to know well/

    I am wondering what will happen with Felix Sater – FBI informant and crook non-pareil.

  92. 92.

    TenguPhule

    “It’s hard to impeach somebody who hasn’t done anything wrong and who’s created the greatest economy in the history of our country,” Trump said when asked about the prospect of being removed from office.

    “I’m not concerned, no,” he added. “I think that the people would revolt if that happened.”

    Finally found the quote.

    He is stark raving mad.

  94. 94.

    NotMax

    @TenguPhule

    You’re on a different island but still may remember some years back the occasion central Maui reached total gridlock when portions of major arteries and other nearby roads were shut down after a rupture in a huge outdoor storage tank* holding molasses.

    Normally commute was 18 minutes from home to work, took just under 3 hours that day.

    *Capable of holding something around ten thousand tons of the stuff, IIRC.

  97. 97.

    Elizabelle

    So does Cohen report immediately to prison? Or does he get a little time to ready himself for that, and then report? Maybe they have not even decided where he will serve his sentence.

    The newspaper stories are remarkably detail free, and not subjecting myself to cable news. No no no.

  98. 98.

    Yarrow

    @rikyrah: Can’t we all practically write the article ourselves at this point?

    Let’s see, it’ll probably include most of these things:
    – Democrats will overreach
    – Public will tire of hearing about Russia investigation
    – Democrats won’t pass legislation their voters want if they focus on Russia/impeachment, etc. and their voters will kick them out in 2020
    – Some bad/wrong economic assertions and/or statistics
    – Comparison to some not really relevant other time when Democrats did something
    – Sad attempt at humor

    See! All done now!

  100. 100.

    Jeffro

    @TenguPhule: @Spanky: it really is one of the dumber things she has ever written (I know, I know, there’s a lot of competition for that title)

    But seriously, McMegan…

    …But the greatest danger may be the one facing Democrats: that the investigations end up with not quite enough evidence to justify impeachment — and the Democrats nonetheless go ahead and impeach Trump anyway. If the Mueller investigation ends without a credible, direct link between the president and Russian interference in the 2016 election, the Democratic base would still clamor to impeach him over the campaign finance violations that prosecutors have connected to the hush-money payments. If the activists clamor loud enough, impeachment may well happen simply because no one in the Democratic caucus wants to be the one who breaks the bad news to them.

    Curse those darned “activists” that are only “activists” in the Democratic Party (in the GOP, they’re called “voters”, or “citizens”, or the “white working class”, or whatever)

    The result would be a replay of the Clinton impeachment, only with each team taking the other side of the field. Democrats would have their own Lindsey Graham problems — Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) trying to explain why Trump’s behavior is worse than a president having sex with a 22-year-old White House intern and then concealing the affair with a spot of perjury. But those arguments, no matter how ingenious, wouldn’t travel well outside of the left’s ideological bubble. Explaining that everything has changed since the #MeToo movement arrived wouldn’t be much help.

    If the push for impeachment is about the legal violations involved in covering up some sexual impropriety instead of Russia’s election interference, it will probably backfire, just as the Clinton impeachment blew up for Republicans. Democrats can piously intone that they’re worried about campaign finance, not sexual misbehavior, but in the public square the debate will be over the sex. And while #MeToo may have changed the calculus in Washington, there are still millions of less politically engaged voters across the country who don’t necessarily thrill to the call of identity politics or want Congress to undertake a forensic investigation of the president’s sexual history. If that’s where all this ends up, Democrats are likely to regret it.

    Is it just me or does nobody really care much about the sex? (Other than the hypocrisy about it from evangelicals, that is) I hesitate to speak for the entire Democratic Party, but I’m pretty sure 99% of us care about the lawbreaking – the dirty money, the violations of what little campaign finance law remains, the lying to Congress, the obstruction of justice – and maybe 1% care about the (ugh) (ick) (gross) Trumpian sexy time.

    Yes, this is a lot of “ifs” all strung in a row. Unfortunately, none of them can be resolved until Mueller speaks, revealing the extent of the possible allegations. About the only thing that’s certain right now is that the next year is going to be one of the uglier, angrier entries in the annals of American history.

    And why would it be ugly or angry, McMegan? Or to put it another way, WHY AREN’T REPUBLICANS READY TO TOSS THIS LAWBREAKING, TREASONOUS, UTTERY IMMORAL KNOW-NOTHING RIGHT OUT ON HIS EIGHT-TON ASS? We want justice – that’s not ugly or angry until we run up against the people running cover for this scumbag. THEN, we get angry, yeah…

  101. 101.

    Yarrow

    @Barbara: Doubtful. It was likely a play for sympathy. Let’s not forget when Michael Cohen did this:

    Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump’s personal attorney, has stirred up an online debate over a photo he tweeted on Sunday of his adult daughter.

    In the black-and-white photo Samantha Blake Cohen, a student at the University of Pennsylvania, poses in black stockings and a bra.

    “So proud of my Ivy League daughter … brains and beauty channeling her Edie Sedgwick,” he wrote, adding a link to @samichka_, his daughter’s Instagram.

    She has since deleted her Instagram.

    @Elizabelle: I heard he reports to prison in early March–maybe it was March 3?

  102. 102.

    waratah

    @Corner Stone: have you tried shoes boots lined in wool. Uggs are good but there are others. Moccasins are lined in wool. The fist time I tried Uggs I was amazed how much they warmed my feet. I love the feel of them without socks.

  104. 104.

    Barbara

    @Yarrow: She was definitely using crutches so life might have taken a turn for the worse post-Ivy League graduation. At any rate, I never take joy over the effect that jail time, however justified, has on families. It looked like the son and wife had been crying nonstop before the hearing.

  105. 105.

    TenguPhule

    @NotMax:

    Normally commute was 18 minutes from home to work, took just under 3 hours that day.

    I was here for the great “Army Truck cracks bridge over major freeway” incident awhile back.

    40 minute drive became 6 hours.

  108. 108.

    TenguPhule

    @Jeffro:

    Democrats would have their own Lindsey Graham problems — Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) trying to explain why Trump’s behavior is worse than a president having sex with a 22-year-old White House intern and then concealing the affair with a spot of perjury.

    Truly her finest hour at being completely, utterly wrong.

  112. 112.

    Barbara

    @TenguPhule: I don’t know, her screed maintaining that insider trading has no victims might be hard to top (or, rather, slither under). She is truly, truly, the epitome of how to succeed by having wealthy parents and being totally mediocre.

  113. 113.

    Jeffro

    Apparently AMI (parent company of National Enquirer?) has also reached a non-prosecution deal with SDNY…one Tweep noted “hard not to think that indictments of Trump Org aren’t far behind”

    It’ll all drop at once.

  116. 116.

    Yarrow

    @Barbara: She’s using a crutch but she’s also wearing heels. Whatever happened to make her need the crutch isn’t so bad that she can’t wear heels. I know she’s young, but come on. Heels are not recommended for people who need mobility assistance. It’s a safety issue.

    I do agree with you that the family pays the price when something like this happens. I feel sorry for his family but it was his choice to put them through this. It does suck for them, though. They look distraught.

  117. 117.

    scott (the other one)

    @Raoul: This is one of those (oh so many) places where our MSM has fallen down so egregiously. The Senate Majority Leader does not get to have no comment on the personal attorney to the President of the United States of America going to prison, especially not when the Senate Majority Leader and the President are from the same party. He simply doesn’t get to. Until he has an official comment, he doesn’t get to comment on another fucking thing. Not current legislation. Not the economy. Not how awful the other party is. Not what his holiday plans are. Every time he opens his chelonian mouth to speak to the press, he must be cut off and asked to comment on the President’s personal attorney going to jail–and the fact that said attorney implicated the President in criminal activities.

    But of course he won’t be.

  118. 118.

    Elizabelle

    @Jeffro: Once the new Congress is in the driver’s seat, or about to be. No allowing the GOP to run interference more than they already have.

    I would like to see Mitch McConnell eventually get a much longer prison sentence. Nobody going to be crying when he reports for sentencing. I am good with him hanging for treason, too.

  119. 119.

    Adam L Silverman

    @catclub: Sater is a long time FBI informant. My professional guesstimate is that he immediately cut himself a day and told everything to keep himself out of as much trouble as possible as he’s done every previous time he’s gotten in trouble.

  124. 124.

    Yarrow

    @Kay: Just think what they’re getting for all those people making deals. The really good stuff is yet to come.

  126. 126.

    rikyrah

    @TenguPhule:

    Democrats would have their own Lindsey Graham problems — Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) trying to explain why Trump’s behavior is worse than a president having sex with a 22-year-old White House intern and then concealing the affair with a spot of perjury.

    It’s the TREASON, you moron.

    it always has been THE TREASON.

  127. 127.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jeffro: Pecker will have had to turn over the entire contents of his safes to SDNY. There is going to be a lot of negative downstream effects from this deal for a lot of people who thought they were safe.

  129. 129.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: I hear you, but they are essentially ‘taking a shot at the king’ here (and one backed by the worst group of enablers in the GOP and on Fox that our democracy has ever seen). They can’t miss…for the sake of the country they can’t miss. They’re going to have to drop a LOT, all at once, on these guys. Jr, Kushner, and Trumpov himself individually plus the Trump Org for RICO.

  132. 132.

    Corner Stone

    @Kay:

    I wish they would prosecute. They have to stop making deals.

    I really only want them to prosecute three people, and don’t care about the rest. It’s a bunch of Papapappadappoulesses to me outside of Trump, Ivanka and Jared.

  133. 133.

    Yarrow

    @Jeffro: Yep. And it’s all going to have to happen at once or it won’t work. It’s just going to be chaos when it does.

    @NotMax: Absolutely! Wonder what’s in those safes…

  135. 135.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow:

    Yep! I expect the really big stuff won’t drop until Nancy has resumed her throne.

    Exactly right. I know many have said that these kinds of roll-up investigations (whether money-laundering or counterintelligence/conspiracy, much less both) take quite a bit of time…in the end, we will probably hear that Mueller figured out early on that a) this was going to take a loooong time and b) would hopefully last at least as long as the 2018 elections, when hopefully the Dems would take over.

    Everything that’s happened to drag this out and keep Trumpov from firing Sessions, Rosenstein, and Mueller…everything people did to buy time for the Special Counsel to lay this incredibly solid of a foundation…it’s almost heroic. I hope we hear more of the details eventually (perhaps we can kick off the 2021 Truth & Reconciliation Commission hearings with a full accounting of what was done to ensure Trumpov & Co were eventually brought to justice)

  136. 136.

    Corner Stone

    @Yarrow:

    Did you know that sometimes it’s so cold that the water falling from the sky freezes? No, really! It’s true!

    Nice try, you fool! But I’ve been to a shaved ice shop before. I know how that frozen stuff really gets made!

  138. 138.

    Kay

    Frank Thorp V
    ‏Verified account
    @frankthorp
    1h1 hour ago
    More
    GRAHAM on the Michael Cohen sentencing: “Any time a former lawyer of yours goes to jail it’s probably not a good day, but I have yet to see any evidence coming from Mister Cohen of collusion…”

    What is the Republican plan here? They really plan to argue that no crimes the President or his low quality hires commit matter unless they are “collusion”?

    “See? No collusion” as they lead all the Trump hires off in handcuffs. “Collusion” isn’t even the crime. Collusion is made-up pundit word for what they’re investigating. Comey has said that over and over.

    Maybe that’s the plan- “See? There’s no “collusion” in the federal code so he’s innocent!” It’s so childish.

    It’s not going to work either.

  139. 139.

    TenguPhule

    It seemed to start on cordial terms, a brave new world of bipartisan dialogue on the great issues of the day, less than a week after the funeral of George HW Bush.

    Just kidding.

    It only took a few minutes for Donald Trump’s Oval Office meeting with the top Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer on Tuesday to descend into the equivalent of a custard pie fight from a Laurel and Hardy comedy.

    And silently watching the bizarre, acrimonious scene was Vice-President Mike Pence. Seldom has anyone tried so actively – and successfully – to appear a passive blank space.

    Pinocchio and the two Democrats: how that Trump meeting descended into farce

  141. 141.

    scott (the other one)

    @rikyrah: The WaPo has been greatly outpacing the FTFNYT the past few years—admittedly, that’s a fairly low bar, sadly—but shit like this is why I still give them the automatic stinkeye whenever they’re brought up. Because…WTF.

  144. 144.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman: True, but the strictly ‘personal failings’ will likely stay buried while the criminal stuff gets its eventual day in court, prioritized by severity.

    I’m surprised the media aren’t asking about how Cohen wasn’t willing to testify about anything but Trumpov. I can actually see the Mango Menace taking to Twitter sometime very soon, with his usual threats and innuendoes: “Oh Michael’s SOOO innocent and I’m the bad guy? You should see some of the things he was up to and who he was dealing wi…” Wait. Actually I can see him stopping right there and deleting that tweet…he’s mixed up with the same people. Never mind (on Trumpov’s part, anyway). But why aren’t the media asking around?

  146. 146.

    Jeffro

    @TenguPhule: More both-sides bullshit. That meeting was no more of a “pie fight” or “farce” than a skilled debater taking on a toddler who wants ice cream. Trumpov looked and sounded like a complete moron; Nancy handed him his fat ass. But to the media it’s a “pie fight”. Grrrrr

  148. 148.

    Gravenstone

    @TenguPhule: Honest question. Do these people actually inhabit an alternate reality, or are they simply trying to bullshit their way into making a percentage of the population believe in one?

  149. 149.

    Jeffro

    @Kay:

    What is the Republican plan here? They really plan to argue that no crimes the President or his low quality hires commit matter unless they are “collusion”?

    Yes.

    They’ll probably be saying “…and these other crimes, these payoffs and campaign finance ‘violations’ and perjury and what not, they wouldn’t even have HAPPENED – or at least, we never would have heard of them – if the phony ‘collusion’ investigation hadn’t gotten started…” any day now, if they haven’t already. Which is kind of gob-smacking when you think about it. If we go about investigating alleged crime #1 and during the course of that investigation find out about alleged crimes #2 and #3…do we then just take a pass on prosecuting #2 and #3???? It boggles the mind because unlike Republicans, my mind actually works and does not contain a FoxLogic operating system.

  150. 150.

    piratedan

    @Jeffro: well you do have to admire her completely context free riffing on the possible doom and gloom regarding the Mueller investigation…

    we had roughly four years of Whitewater investigations about real-estate deals that the President lost money on to turn up a consenting adults blow job that the President lied about…. versus a vast cornucopia of crimes committed by not only Individual-1 but his entire administration and likely leading to a series of very pointed questions to pretty much the entire GOP hierarchy in regards to money, coordination and an utter lack of ethics which has already seen indictments and convictions and McMegan is concerned that there actually might not be any Smocking Gun…..

    If we could harness that raw power, we could run the entire eastern seaboard on her combination of stupidity and obtuseness….

  151. 151.

    TenguPhule

    @Gravenstone:

    Do these people actually inhabit an alternate reality, or are they simply trying to bullshit their way into making a percentage of the population believe in one?

    I think a bit of both. They’re insulated from the worst effects of their propaganda while having the moral compass of a drunken weasel in heat.

  152. 152.

    TenguPhule

    @Jeffro: “process crimes” and “no real victims”.

    “we just forgot to complete some paperwork, everyone does it!”

    Gaslighting by the GOP has already started.

  153. 153.

    A Ghost To Most

    Cohen’s reticence to talk about everything may be him attempting to protect family or in-laws.

  154. 154.

    scott (the other one)

    A reminder, since it’s easy to forget, since it’s really not all that much different from what they normally do and why: one reason McConnell and Graham and McCarthy and the rest are so “la la la I cannot hear you” about all this isn’t just because they’re greedy and power-hungry and petty—it’s because many of them are probably compromised themselves, whether directly or indirectly (through NRA money, for instance). And, as has been pointed out, many of them honestly don’t know for sure if they’re one of the compromised ones and, if so, how much. So best just to try to keep their heads down, pretend it’s business as usual, and hope against all rationality that things will be okay for them. Because, to their way of thinking, they’ve got no other viable alternative—not if they want to keep their political careers. (And they all do–not to mention, a bunch of them are still hoping they’ll somehow be able to turn this all to their political advantage.)

  155. 155.

    Barbara

    @Gravenstone: My hypothesis about McMegan is that she is so mediocre that the only way she knows to say anything of any interest on any subject is to follow the pattern of “you might have thought that X was obvious, but I am here to tell you why Y is actually right.” Of course, the X has to favor liberals (or regulation) and the Y either has to implicate liberals or exculpate conservatives or be critical of regulation that might benefit average people. The fact that her arguments are often premised on a complete misunderstanding of economic theory is just icing on the cake. That’s why I view the insider trading screed as peak McMegan — she actually said something to the effect that markets are more efficient when there is asymmetry of information, when efficient market hypothesis posits exactly the opposite. She got so much criticism on Twitter for that article that she actually started whining in response that people hadn’t actually read it all the way through or misunderstood what she was saying.

  157. 157.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Yarrow: You’re a better person than I, then. I feel not a grain of sympathy for anyone in his family. Guy spends his life being a professional asshole, and they all live large based on that. Fuck him, and fuck them. I hope by the end of this they don’t have two nickels to rub together.

    There, I’m a bad person.

  161. 161.

    TenguPhule

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Guy spends his life being a professional asshole, and they all live large based on that. Fuck him, and fuck them. I hope by the end of this they don’t have two nickels to rub together.

    Come sit by me.

    When they burn, I will have smores ready.

  163. 163.

    scav

    It’s also possibly just a personal face-saving locution / dodge: “I never said Trump wasn’t guilty of being a complicit even eager arm of the Russian state and a tax-avoiding pussy-harrassing nincompoop. I said it wasn’t collusion†.”

    † or an artificial blue-cheese spread or Mississippian pimento salad or Venusian gold-dust foxtrot.

  164. 164.

    The Moar You Know

    Since the day AMI got hit with their subpoena/whatever, I haven’t seen them in a checkout stand. Not anywhere. Surely they have not shut down?

  165. 165.

    ruemara

    @Jeffro: I predict a lot of silence.

    @Kay: You’re probably going to see people say this is so common & both sides do it, because I’ve been hearing that from punditry & republicans. It’s going to take people demanding that it be important.

  169. 169.

    Chris Johnson

    @scott (the other one): No shit they are, and boy do they know it.

    I heard McConnell let through some sort of legislation that was OK with Dems, and my immediate thought was ‘is it time for him to start making all kinds of concessions in hopes of being let go scot-free despite being an outright traitor and Russian agent?’ Because now they know. A bunch of people know. They’re not telling you, because ‘the discourse’ and preserving norms and systems that are already completely destroyed. It’s maintaining a fiction.

  171. 171.

    Domestic short hair tabby (fka vheidi)

    @A Ghost To Most: can’t remember where I heard it (prob msnbc) – sdny wants absolutely every last detail of one’s illegal activities, which could take quite some time. Cohen knew he was going to jail and wanted to get it over with

  174. 174.

    Ruviana

    @Gin & Tonic: I’m not sure how minor children fit into this argument (yes I know they’re adults now but what do kids so?) One might consider how long it took for Paul Manafort’s daughters to xome to grips with where their money came from.

  175. 175.

    Peale

    @TenguPhule: maybe Kenneth Starr could go back through the case and find those payments to Monica. The expensive gifts to her paid from the treasury or from campaign funds. Threats made by his security detail to keep her quiet. Maybe he forgot to look for those things.

  177. 177.

    ruemara

    @Ruviana: Didn’t they acknowledge that and disavow him in some released texts? I feel bad for them. I’ve been listening to the podcast Happy Face, which is about the daughter of the Happy Face killer and man, there’s some pain you go through as the child of a crook. Not to mention the multiple ways he tried to kill his family via stealth but just the mental games he plays with them is bad enough.

  178. 178.

    A Ghost To Most

    On Twitter, re: Orrin Hatch’s Senate farewell speech.

    BUMBLR, the dating app for Abominable Snowmen
    @dogdadbod

    I can’t wait to posthumously convert Orrin Hatch to Baphometism

  179. 179.

    germy

    Cohen letting loose on Trump: "Recently the president tweeted a statement calling me weak and it was correct but for a much different reason than he was implying. It was because time and time again I felt it was my duty to cover up his dirty deeds"— Abby D. Phillip (@abbydphillip) December 12, 2018

    What a time to be alive.

  180. 180.

    Kelly

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Pecker will have had to turn over the entire contents of his safes to SDNY.

    A key shadowy bad guy in this story is named Pecker? These showrunners are shameless.

    Yes, I know he’s run the National Inquirer and been buddies with Trump for a long time.

  182. 182.

    TenguPhule

    Anna Massoglia
    ✔
    @annalecta
    BREAKING: Senate votes 50-49 to overthrow new Treasury Dept policy that no longer requires some 501(c) tax-exempt nonprofits—including politically active “dark money” groups—to disclose donor names & addresses (which already were not public under prior IRS policy) in tax returns.

    623
    8:01 AM – Dec 12, 2018 · Washington, DC

    Yay, Team Good Guys.

  183. 183.

    TenguPhule

    Natalie Allison
    ✔
    @natalie_allison
    NEW: Soon-to-be Congressman Mark Green, a physician, warned constituents last night vaccines may be causing autism. He says he’s going to “stand on the CDC’s desk and get the real data on vaccines.”https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2018/12/12/tennessee-mark-green-vaccine-autism-cdc-congressman-anti-vax/2288164002/ …

    269
    7:15 AM – Dec 12, 2018

    Fucking Tennessee.

  184. 184.

    TenguPhule

    Joe Bruno
    ✔
    @JoeBrunoWSOC9
    BREAKING: We have obtained a photo of Mark Harris and McCrae Dowless together. The picture was taken in March at a political event in Bladen County. The person who took the photo has asked us to not identify them. #NC09 #ncpol @wsoctv

    5,253
    2:55 PM – Dec 11, 2018

    NC scandal widens.

  188. 188.

    jeffreyw

    @TenguPhule:

    “we just forgot to complete some paperwork, everyone does it!”
    Gaslighting by the GOP has already started.

    Ask one simple question to shut that shit down: “Do you do it, Senator?”

  189. 189.

    Ruviana

    @ruemara: Yep, there were transcripts of either texts or phone calls where the daughters were discussing their father’s sources of income and one of them called it “blood money ” I believe.

    ETA I think one of them legally changed her last name as well.

  194. 194.

    catclub

    @sukabi: 35mph wall of molasses is fast and terrifying, so I am guessing, no.

    I was reminded of the great maple syrup caper of 2013(?)

  199. 199.

    Just One More Canuck

    @Barbara: if there were truly such a thing as efficient markets, McMegan would have been cooking sparrows with a coat hanger decades ago

  201. 201.

    J R in WV

    @Corner Stone:

    I really only want them to prosecute three people, and don’t care about the rest. It’s a bunch of Papapappadappoulesses to me outside of Trump, Ivanka and Jared.

    I have to disagree. Anyone associated with any political party or lobbying group (NRA, etc) who had anything to do with the election of Traitor Tot President needs to go up.

    Including Mitch McConnell in first place outside the Trump Organization followed by Reince Priebus. (however you spel that mane.)

  206. 206.

    Mart

    @TenguPhule: Local CBS affiliate played a Nationally CBS produced piece on Trump, Schumer and Pelosi. About 40 seconds of Trump shouting down the other 2 with the correspondent adding the president said several things. No context that the President is a lying loon. Thought the piece was crafted for the MAGAT mindset, not sane people. Kind of frightening propaganda to me. Maybe Trump is right, the press is the enemy of the people.

  207. 207.

    Just One More Canuck

    @A Ghost To Most: @TenguPhule: He seems nice

    Per wiki

    On April 7, 2017, President Donald Trump nominated Green to be United States Secretary of the Army.[1] After facing criticism for his remarks about about gays, lesbians, transgender people and Muslims, Green withdrew his nomination on May 5, 2017.[2] In 2018, he won the election to become the U.S. House Representative in Tennessee’s 7th congressional district.[3]

  209. 209.

    smintheus

    I’m not happy so far with the lightness of the sentences and the galling amount of immunity lavished on these crooks to date. I hope that the severity of the punishment for people closer to Trump ends up making all this leniency worth it.

    ETA: I agree with Kay above.

  210. 210.

    TenguPhule

    @smintheus: I’m wondering if Cohen realizes it might not be good for his health to wander around in public before he’s due to report to prison.

    So many unhealthy accidents have been happening to people with Russian connections last couple of years.

    He might catch a fatal case of Death.

  211. 211.

    geg6

    @Corner Stone:

    FTR, last night Lawrence Tribe said that it’s ludicrous to believe a sitting president can’t be indicted and that there is language in both the Constitution, the Federalist Papers and various letters, etc. contemporaneous to the fight to ratify the Constitution that shows this. Since I have not had the time nor do I have the expertise to analyze all the documents, I’m taking his word for it over, say, Jon Heilmann or Tweety.

  212. 212.

    geg6

    Since I’m apparently not allowed to edit a comment today, let me say that I regret the “both” in my comment #211.

  215. 215.

    smintheus

    @geg6: Can a sitting president murder people, set the Capitol on fire, or torture his political opponents without being indicted? I can’t imagine anyone involved in writing the Constitution thought that would be a good system to create.

    It’s also worth remembering that in 1920 Eugene Debs ran for president while he was in jail for daring to speak out against Wilson’s war plans. Presumably everyone agreed that if elected, he could have served as president from his jail cell. Therefore somebody already elected president may be sent off to jail for committing actual crimes.

  216. 216.

    Barbara

    @geg6: My reply to you is in moderation. Basically, an article in Slate today made the case for why indictment is permitted.

  219. 219.

    Corner Stone

    @geg6: Just seems weird to me that almost 100% of pundits and legal experts brought on air all start with a factual statement saying a sitting president can not be indicted.

  221. 221.

    Tony Jay

    Result just in, Teresa May survived as Tory Party leader, but over 1/3 of her MPs vote to remove her.

    That’s….. not really too good.

  222. 222.

    Barbara

    “May wins confidence ballot by 200 votes to 117” A victory but also a serious setback for her because that’s a lot of people who aren’t inclined to support her.

  224. 224.

    Doug R

    @TenguPhule: We had a 4 lane bridge that was built in 1936 have a truck crash underneath the one section that was creasote soaked wood which caught on fire. TransLink eventually used a bridge section that was part of the elevated train construction after two weeks of gridlock. So our Richmond train saved Surrey’s bacon.

  226. 226.

    catclub

    @Tony Jay: May is a survivor. I predicted she would win this vote. Now it means the Tories cannot call another one for a year. I bet she has laid down the law that they will vote for the brexit plan on offer, or get full blame for catastrophe if it fails

  227. 227.

    Yarrow

    @Tony Jay: Just saw that. Looks like it was worse than they expected.

    @Gin & Tonic: I always feel bad for the kids, especially while they’re minors. It’s not their fault they were born into that family. Once they’re adults it’s different. If they choose to follow their criminal parent into a life of crime then no sympathy. If they’re struggling to come to terms with the whole thing, I get that. It’s got to be hard to realize your parent is a terrible criminal. Your whole world gets upended. That’s hard and it’s something they’re left to deal with that’s no of their making.

  228. 228.

    sm*t cl*de

    @Barbara:

    My hypothesis about McMegan is that she is so mediocre that the only way she knows to say anything of any interest on any subject is to follow the pattern of “you might have thought that X was obvious, but I am here to tell you why Y is actually right.”

    MM has given herself a pass to forget every time she turned out to be wrong. When she promised an painless productive victory in the Iraq invasion, her response to the actual result was “Well, those who predicted a debacle were technically correct, but their predictions were based on their hatred of Bush rather than on evidence, so they don’t get any credit for it.” It is always the same: her falsified prediction was data-driven, the other side’s correct prediction doesn’t count because it was only driven by their personal feels and they would have made that (correct) prediction whatever the underlying situation might have been.

    She has made a decision not to learn from mistakes. She is never going to get smarter. This policy only works in the republican-pundit ecology.

  230. 230.

    sm*t cl*de

    @Tony Jay:

    Teresa May survived as Tory Party leader, but over 1/3 of her MPs vote to remove her.

    1. May looks useless and weak.
    2. May’s Brexit-profiteer opponents look useless, weak and unable to count.

  231. 231.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Speaking of NY:

    New York Attorney Gen.-elect Letitia James says she plans to launch sweeping investigations into President Donald Trump, his family and “anyone” in his circle who may have violated the law once she settles into her new job next month.

    “We will use every area of the law to investigate President Trump and his business transactions and that of his family as well,” James, a Democrat, told NBC News in her first extensive interview since she was elected last month.

    James outlined some of the probes she intends to pursue with regard to the president, his businesses and his family members. They include:

    Any potential illegalities involving Trump’s real estate holdings in New York, highlighting a New York Times investigation published in October into the president’s finances.
    The June 2016 Trump Tower meeting with a Russian official.
    Examine government subsidies Trump received, which were also the subject of Times investigative work.
    Whether he is in violation of the emoluments clause in the U.S. Constitution through his New York businesses.
    Continue to probe the Trump Foundation.
    “We want to investigate anyone in his orbit who has, in fact, violated the law,” said James, who was endorsed by New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo.

    James campaigned on passing a bill to change New York’s double jeopardy laws with an eye on possible pardons coming out of the White House. James told NBC News she wants to be able to pursue state charges against anyone the president were to pardon over federal charges or convictions and whose alleged crimes took place in the state. Under current New York law, she might not be able to do that.

    “I think within the first 100 days this bill will be passed,” she said, adding, “It is a priority because I have concerns with respect to the possibility that this administration might pardon some individuals who might face some criminal charges, but I do not want them to be immune from state charges.”

    She’s also enlisting help from some prosecutorial heavy hitters, like former U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch, as a part of her transition to help her identify important hires for her office with an eye on bringing in experts for its Trump-related investigations.

    New York is home to the president’s namesake business, the Trump Organization, and it is where Trump’s presidential campaign was headquartered and his reelection campaign as well. And it is where a number of key events under special counsel Robert Mueller’s microscope, such as the controversial June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, took place. All of that falls within James’ jurisdiction.

  233. 233.

    Corner Stone

    “MistUH TRumP”. Fuck Michael Cohen. He spent a dozen years with the worst person in America.

  234. 234.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    Speaking of NY:

    New York Attorney Gen.-elect Letitia James says she plans to launch sweeping investigations into President Donald Trump, his family and “anyone” in his circle who may have violated the law once she settles into her new job next month.

    “We will use every area of the law to investigate President Trump and his business transactions and that of his family as well,” James, a Democrat, told NBC News in her first extensive interview since she was elected last month.

    James outlined some of the probes she intends to pursue with regard to the president, his businesses and his family members. They include:

    Any potential illegalities involving Trump’s real estate holdings in New York, highlighting a New York Times investigation published in October into the president’s finances.
    The June 2016 Trump Tower meeting with a Russian official.
    Examine government subsidies Trump received, which were also the subject of Times investigative work.
    Whether he is in violation of the emoluments clause in the U.S. Constitution through his New York businesses.
    Continue to probe the Trump Foundation.
    “We want to investigate anyone in his orbit who has, in fact, violated the law,” said James, who was endorsed by New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo.

    James campaigned on passing a bill to change New York’s double jeopardy laws with an eye on possible pardons coming out of the White House. James told NBC News she wants to be able to pursue state charges against anyone the president were to pardon over federal charges or convictions and whose alleged crimes took place in the state. Under current New York law, she might not be able to do that.

    “I think within the first 100 days this bill will be passed,” she said, adding, “It is a priority because I have concerns with respect to the possibility that this administration might pardon some individuals who might face some criminal charges, but I do not want them to be immune from state charges.”

    She’s also enlisting help from some prosecutorial heavy hitters, like former U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch, as a part of her transition to help her identify important hires for her office with an eye on bringing in experts for its Trump-related investigations.

    New York is home to the president’s namesake business, the Trump Organization, and it is where Trump’s presidential campaign was headquartered and his reelection campaign as well. And it is where a number of key events under special counsel Robert Mueller’s microscope, such as the controversial June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, took place. All of that falls within James’ jurisdiction.

    (I submitted this twice. One is in moderation, feel free to delete)

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/incoming-new-york-attorney-general-plans-wide-ranging-investigations-trump-n946706?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma

  235. 235.

    Brachiator

    @Platonailedit:

    And Theresa May wins confidence vote by 200 to 117.

    And once again, Conservative Party losers show how pathetic they are:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chair of the ERG who led the push for a confidence vote, says he accepts the result, but that Theresa May should resign.

  239. 239.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @TenguPhule: He was also trying to claim the mid terms were a rout for the Democrats yesterday. It feels like in Trump’s mind he’s decided Paul Ryan never existed and Nancy Pelosi has been Speaker of the House since 2016.

    You’re right Trump’s sanity is slipping.

  240. 240.

    Immanentize

    @sm*t cl*de:
    I actually think the conservatives who forced the leadership vote were not bad whip counters, but were demonstrating exactly how many no votes existed on May’s Brexit plan to the rest of Commons. And how many Conservatives might join a Labour no confidence vote.

  243. 243.

    Platonailedit

    @Kay:

    Yup. For all the hype, it’s been only underwhelming ludicrous slap in the wrist so far. Let’s see what manafort gets (away with). The white collar crime has obvious benefits.

  244. 244.

    Tony Jay

    @catclub:

    It’s hard to see how she can lay down the law to anybody. More than a third of her MPs just voted to dump her, she had to ape Tony Blair and promise she’d step down before the next scheduled General Election in order to win over wavering Tories, she still needs DUP votes to stay PM and get anything through Parliament and they are – not – going to back her deal as it stands.

    Once the euphoria of survival ebbs away the reality of her weakness will come to the fore. All the Tories have done is expose the rift in the Party as being wider and deeper than anyone suspected and superglue their future to her and her deal, which is still as dead as the Holy Roman Empire.

    When she’s got the BBC’s professional Tory whisperers making sad faces about the size of the vote against her and pointing out that when Thatcher suffered a humiliation like this she resigned…. no, it’s not good.

  245. 245.

    TenguPhule

    @Doug R: The Freeway that the military brought to a halt serviced approximately a quarter of a million cars trying to get home from work.

  246. 246.

    Platonailedit

    Tim Kaine on CNN on the Oval Office mtg: "What you saw was the president being fact-checked to his face by strong Democratic leaders, which Republican leaders haven't been willing to do … [Trump] decided he was going to play a trick … so they fact-checked him to his face."— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 12, 2018

  247. 247.

    TenguPhule

    @catclub:

    I bet she has laid down the law that they will vote for the brexit plan on offer

    That’s like being chewed on by a defanged garter snake.

  249. 249.

    TenguPhule

    @Tony Jay:

    When she’s got the BBC’s professional Tory whisperers making sad faces about the size of the vote against her and pointing out that when Thatcher suffered a humiliation like this she resigned…. no, it’s not good.

    When they’re whispering that Thatcher had more honor then May, that’s pretty damn sharp.

  250. 250.

    Rand Careaga

    @sm*t cl*de: I forget where it was McArdle was doing business a decade ago—the “Atlantic,” perhaps?—but I once weighed in to the effect on a comment thread that “Roy Edroso had your number a long time ago.” This was scrubbed within an hour. Edroso, by the way, has a daily newsletter that is well worth the $70/PA.

  253. 253.

    Brachiator

    @Tony Jay:

    More than a third of her MPs just voted to dump her, she had to ape Tony Blair and promise she’d step down before the next scheduled General Election in order to win over wavering Tories, she still needs DUP votes to stay PM and get anything through Parliament and they are – not – going to back her deal as it stands.

    So where does the UK go from here? The EU’s position is that they are not going to negotiate a new deal.

    So, No Deal Tories, and we will get a new deal Tories are exactly where they were before.

    Labour makes noise but is equally in the same place that they were before.

    So we got a moment of drama leading to nowhere. Like May getting stuck in her car when she went to visit Merkel.

  254. 254.

    Tony Jay

    @TenguPhule:

    Yeah. Expectations have certainly been lowered to meet the current threshold for ‘honour’ amongst Tory PMs.

    Loyalist Tories already briefing about maybe winning over pro-Brexit Labour MPs with promises of some kind of softer Brexit. They know the hole they’re come January when they have to hold the Meaningful Vote on the Withdrawal Treaty of face a Parliament wide rebellion. The thrashing about looking for some kind of unlikely miracle has begun even sooner than expected.

  256. 256.

    TenguPhule

    @Brachiator:

    Labour makes noise but is equally in the same place that they were before.

    Unless a General Election is called and Labour wins, its not their problem.

  257. 257.

    TenguPhule

    @Tony Jay:

    Loyalist Tories already briefing about maybe winning over pro-Brexit Labour MPs with promises of some kind of softer Brexit.

    *snort*

    They’re better off trying to make another pact with the Lib-Dems for a Supply alliance again.

  258. 258.

    Brachiator

    @Martin:

    Pretty sure Trumps dad called him a loser. He can’t stand being a loser. He rewrites reality in his head to not be a loser.

    Which only makes him more of a loser.

  259. 259.

    Platonailedit

    @Tony Jay:

    Despite all the media promoted doom and gloom, May got more votes now than her 2016 leadership fight. So, jow is this bad for her personally? BBC spinning this as a big loss for her is ludicrous.

  260. 260.

    Brachiator

    @TenguPhule:

    Labour makes noise but is equally in the same place that they were before.

    Unless a General Election is called and Labour wins, its not their problem.

    So, like I said, Labour is in the same place they were before. De facto irrelevance.

    Theresa May is not calling for a General Election. And the clock is ticking. May still has to get a vote for her deal. Labour can only watch. If she fails, and a new election is called for, hilarity ensues. The EU hasn’t really moved from their position. And Labour may be hurting itself by saying nothing. Nobody has a reason to vote for them for any reason related to BREXIT, or any feeling that Labour could do something different or achieve anything better than the present government.

  261. 261.

    Tony Jay

    @Brachiator:

    Exactly. For once the Maybot would be almost right to drone “Nothing. Has. Changed.”

    This morning the Tories were in a self imposed bond that only a complete change in strategy could get them out of. They’re still there, only deeper in and with fewer options open to them.

    Labour’s strategy hasn’t changed. Wait for the Tories to lose the vote on May’s Withdrawal Deal, present the non-extremists on the Government benches with the option of supporting or, more likely, abstaining from, a No Confidence vote in the Government, or letting a No-Deal happen.

    The endgame is a delay in Article 50 to accommodate either a General Election or a Peoples Vote. The longer Brexit it is put off, the less likely it becomes. Certain elements in Labour are openly opposed to becoming the face of the anti-Brexit movement, but the Party Conference laid out the policy and they have to follow it or follow the Tories into a mad schism.

    It’s not without risk, but this is the situation the Tories have put the country in.

  262. 262.

    Robert (Nojay) Sneddon

    @Tony Jay: The Tories can’t deliver a “softer” Brexit to any pro-Brexit Labour MPs and both sides know it. At the moment they’re thrashing around, saying anything that will stave off or delay the inevitable cliff-edge choice between no-Deal and no-Brexit. Those now are the only two realistic options and the Tories can’t deliver No-Brexit, not without being crucified by their mostly-pro-Brexit supporters.

    My uneducated prediction is for Labour, the SNP and Lib-Dems to hammer the government to bring forward the Withdrawal Agreement for a vote in Parliament sooner than later. When this doesn’t happen, since PM May can’t afford to lose that vote and can’t win it then the Parliamentary vote of no-confidence in the government will be called. The leadership vote told the anti-May forces just how strong they are, one in three MPs basically and they know that if even 10% of them abstain then the Government goes down to defeat. There’s nothing May can offer the “rebels”, nothing she can deliver in political terms to stop enough of them abstaining.

    More interesting times to come.

  263. 263.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @TenguPhule: TheBBC page that had this story also had Europe links to at least 2 articles on the time Putin was a KGB operative working in Dresden. During the anti- soviet demonstrations in 89 Moscow was very slow to reply to requests for aid. He allegedly learned from this the importance of a very strong central authority. One of the articles has a picture of the ‘young’ Putin’s passport.

  264. 264.

    Tony Jay

    @Platonailedit:

    The Media were giddy with excitement over the drama but we’re still talking up a solid victory for May with the rebels confined to the 50 to 70 ERG Extremists and their threat to her right-click being crushed. Her losing over a third of her MPs in this kind of high-pressure vote is a huge blow. The fact that the BBC, which is to British Conservatives as NPR is to American Conservatives, is calling this a bad result for her credibility is a sign of just how terrible May’s position has become.

    Or shorter, if those 117 Tories vote with the DUP against her Deal she needs over half of the Parliamentary Labour Party to cross over and vote with the Government in order to pass it. That’s something covered under the terms of the Treaty of Nagganappen.

  266. 266.

    Robert (Nojay) Sneddon

    @Platonailedit: She wasn’t the leader of the Party when she got less than 60% of the vote for leader. Now she’s the PM she’s expected to lead and the Party to follow without demur. She might have survived with fifty or so rebels voting against her, losing more than a hundred means she’s toast. Thatcher won her leadership election by a similar margin, about 55% rather than 63% but she knew that it was a hollow “victory” since it revealed the size of the opposition against her. The folks that launched the leadership vote against May knew they wouldn’t get her out by a simple vote count, they wanted the opposition’s strength to be made clear.

    Imagine if, for example, an American President lost the confidence of a third of his party’s Congresscritters in the House. That’s the sort of fate staring PM May in the face with the parliamentary no-confidence vote to come and no fixed-term elections as in the US — the PM can be deposed any day of the week once it is clear they can’t command the confidence of a majority of the House since they can’t push important legislation through, stuff like Budgets or serious constitutional bills. The enabling legislation for the Withdrawal Agreement, something she fought like crazy to keep from Parliamentary approval but failed, is the biggest constitutional bill brought before the House in decades and it must pass for her to survive as PM. It’s not going to pass so she’s not going to be PM much longer.

  268. 268.

    Platonailedit

    @Tony Jay:

    Yeah, brexit of all varieties is dead as a dodo. Given the leadership vaccum, aka Tina factor, she will limp along till another referendum happens.

  269. 269.

    TenguPhule

    @Brachiator:

    And Labour may be hurting itself by saying nothing.

    Labour would shoot their own dick off if they said anything right now. About a third of their own voters are Brexit supporters, Corbyn has to play a balancing act between all of the squabbling members of his party to keep them relatively on the same page. The only way that they have a hope of fixing things is becoming the majority government, but to do that they need all of the other minor parties to stick with them in coalition and the only thing all of them can agree on is that Tories are assholes and Brexit is a fucking mess.

  270. 270.

    Tony Jay

    @Platonailedit:

    That’s what I’m hoping for. There’s no way out of this crappy downward spiral without a vote to confirm exactly what the ‘will of the people’ is these days.

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