Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

Not all heroes wear capes.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Let there be snark.

Everybody saw this coming.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

The revolution will be supervised.

Consistently wrong since 2002

We still have time to mess this up!

Infrastructure week. at last.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Russiagate Open Thread: Never Trust Turks Bearing Gifts

Russiagate Open Thread: Never Trust Turks Bearing Gifts

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Just yesterday, the Turkish government was bragging that the Trump administration was about to extradite Gulen. (Trump’s agents have denied this, at least once news of the Kian indictment broke.)

Granted that Fethullah Gulen may be a cult leader and a very bad person (although foreign policy experts say not responsible for that coup), but it’s never a good idea for the titular head of the American government to give other countries the impression that extraditions are available if the right ‘fixers’ are employed.


And I can’t find my Mueller “Can these guys stop doing crimes for one minute so I could wrap this thing up” gif…

Reader Interactions

102Comments

  2. 2.

    Mary G

    If Twitler and Kid Jared can handwave away, and possibly even approve beforehand, Saudi Arabia’s murder of Jamal Khashoggi, they were probably quite willing to, for the right price, sell this guy out too.

  4. 4.

    Villago Delenda Est

    It is ludicrous beyond the bounds of credibility that Michael Flynn did not know that lying to the FBI is a crime. He was explicitly briefed on Department of the Army policy concerning foreign payments to retirees, specifically that they must be approved prior. He is as guilty as sin, and then some…an utter disgrace to the uniform he once wore.

    Mueller was exceptionally kind in his sentencing recommendation, and Flynn’s attorneys dare to question it.

  5. 5.

    Keith P.

    it’s never a good idea for the titular head of the American government to give other countries the impression that extraditions are available if the right ‘fixers’ are employed.

    Or have said titular head have his son-in-law tell other countries that they can kill whomever they want as long as tit-head winds up looking good and gets his name on a desert hotel.

  6. 6.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jay: They had the whole operation well in hand:

  7. 7.

    J R in WV

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    For him, I’m hoping he is recalled to active duty, court martialed , and either bounced out with nothing, or perhaps reduced to 2nd Lt and discharged with the smallest pension in military history. From Lt General to 2nd Lt, quite a drop!!

    Won’t ask for Leavenworth with Marine guards. But that would be sweet too.

  8. 8.

    Jeffro

    Just saw something on Twitter, Chris Matthews musing aloud whether or not Mueller will let Ivanka and Don Jr go free if Don Sr resigns.

    Yo, Chris, STFU! We don’t want him resigning before it’s all out there! DJT deserves a (digital? social media? actual/physical?) tarring-and-feathering before he ends up pleading and begging for a pittance to live on while we RICO the shit out of his “fortune” and melt down his solid gold toilets to pay for the mess he’s caused this country.

  11. 11.

    Platonailedit

    BREAKING: Roger Stone has just settled a $100M defamation suit in which he admits to spreading lies on Alex Jones' InfoWars
    You hear that you loony right wing nuts? Stone admitted to spreading FAKE NEWS on INFOWARS!!
    Not, CNN
    Not MSNBC
    Not the New York Times
    INFOWARS!
    — Brian Krassenstein (@krassenstein) December 18, 2018

  17. 17.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    The FoxNews line that Flynn is not a liar, just an unfortunate who was trapped by underhanded FBI agents, is kind of undermined by the fact that Flynn was actually fired by Trump himself for lying to Pence. Or at least needed to be fired to provide plausible deniability for Pence.

  19. 19.

    different-church-lady

    @rikyrah: Impeach too soon and fail, you don’t get a second shot.

    Really, the only game here is wait for it to become insupportable, threaten impeachment, and force resignation.

    If he digs in, you have to have the votes in the Senate to convict. Otherwise he comes out stronger.

    Insert quote that everyone thinks comes from Shakespeare here.

  20. 20.

    Jay

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Meuller had Flynn charged for lying to the FBI about Russian contacts and “collusion” between the Insane Clown POSus and the Russians.

    Flynn’s still on the hook completely for the Gullen Affair.

  22. 22.

    Mnemosyne

    You know who will have subpoena power and doesn’t mind pissing off the Turkish government? Adam Schiff.

    A large number of Schiff’s constituents are Armenian-Americans, so they’ll cheer him on all the way if he takes on the Turkish government.

  24. 24.

    Adam L Silverman

    @rikyrah: This is a very smart strategy. It does two things: 1) It lets the pressure build in public, which increases the discomfort of Republicans in the House and Senate and 2) It deprives the President of a concrete, tangible, extant threat from the Democratic majority House that he can use as a foil in his reelection campaign to rally his supporters.

  26. 26.

    NotMax

    @Jay

    Being named in today’s unsealed court documents as an unindicted co-conspirator is not completely off the hook.

    It may not be all which some wish to see but it still ain’t chopped liver.

  30. 30.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jay: And that will likely not be handled by the Special Counsel’s Office. Today’s indictments were in the Eastern District of Virginia.

  33. 33.

    Jay

    @NotMax:

    Not Scott Free?

    Anybody seen him around lately?

    Is he another one of those guys who committed suicide by beating himself to death then zipping himself up in a big gym bag?

  36. 36.

    Geoboy

    @Villago Delenda Est: Of course, the judge doesn’t have to follow the prosecutor’s sentencing recommendation. Since they didn’t bother going for the obvious (to me) charge of treason, instead of the death penalty let’s throw him in military prison for, say, 25 years, as an example to any other retired general officers who might be tempted to do something similar. And while we’re at, for good measure let’s throw his idiot, unrepentant son in there with him.

  37. 37.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: Just for the record, I do not have subpoena power, but I too am named Adam and have no qualms about pissing of the Erdogan government. One of my former students, who I was the front line supervisor for, has been missing since the attempted coup. He was actually on an assignment at NATO in Brussels. I can’t confirm it, but it appears he was scarfed up. Or he’s gone to ground. I’ve not been able to reach his family either. I’ve been very concerned for the past couple of years.

  39. 39.

    Adam L Silverman

    @NotMax: My impression is that if they can make an attempted kidnapping case, he may still have some liability. If they don’t try to do that, then he’s probably going to only be punished to the extent possible under his plea agreement for cooperation with the Special Counsel’s Office.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    @Geoboy

    Treason is deucedly difficult to prosecute, requiring either open confession or the testimony of two separate witnesses to an “overt act.” Also clearly defining what the Constitution means by “enemies” (see: Article III Section 3 of the Constitution).

  44. 44.

    Ken

    @different-church-lady:

    Insert quote that everyone thinks comes from Shakespeare here.

    “Betruth milord, know ye not? Three of four wise sayings and nine of ten learnéd studies shewn on the internet are but pleasing fantasies, dreams and memes woven of mist and moonbeams.” – Puck, A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III Scene 4.

  48. 48.

    different-church-lady

    Uh… people? The “quote everyone thinks comes from Shakespeare” does… not come from Shakespeare…

  57. 57.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jay: Thank you. It is what it is. I’m hopeful he and his family were able to go to ground and that’s why they’re unreachable.

  60. 60.

    Amir Khalid

    A few quibbles:
    POTUS is not merely a titular head of government but the chief executive thereof. (Although now I come to think of it, you could be right in saying that all Trump really does is hold the title.)
    As Gulen’s Wikipedia entry tells it, he leads a movement focused on education and interfaith dialogue. While he draws on Sufism a great deal, Sufism is not per se fundamentalist or exclusionary the way e.g. Wahabism is. And it would seem that neither is his movement. So I would be uncomfortable with calling it a cult.

    @Gin & Tonic:
    I found that puzzling. If Jesus wants to join you in a circle jerk, how is he against masturbation?

  61. 61.

    The Dangerman

    @Gin & Tonic:

    “Reach out to me and we will beat it together.” Great slogan.

    Once saw a butcher shop with a sign saying “You can’t beat our meat”. I wasn’t sure whether to tell them.

  62. 62.

    Jay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Hopefully, they got out and are staying low, or are safe at home, and just staying out of contact so as to not ignite suspicion.

    During purges, even the innocent are guilty, for reasons from outside contacts to owning something of value, to filling a quota.

  67. 67.

    Burnspbesq

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Flynn’s attorneys dare to question it.

    Flynn’s attorneys are ethically obligated to push as hard as possible, consistent with the applicable law and the rules of professional conduct, to minimize his sentence.

    You know that as well as I do.

    Just stop.

  69. 69.

    Adam L Silverman

    Ken White dba Popehat has thoughts on Flynn’s sentencing tomorrow. Some guy who needs more tinfoil has thoughts about Ken White’s thoughts:

  71. 71.

    gorram

    *Gülen, gÜlen – I dunno what it is that people ~refuse~ to use diacritics they’ll manage for German-language figures when it comes to (for the exact same diacritics) Turkish names…

  73. 73.

    gorram

    Like, I’d forgive turning the ğ into a g in Erdoğan because ğ is comparatively uncommon, outside of Turkic languages, but for ü, ö, ä, and ç, generally speaking Western outlets play attention to them in German, French, Spanish, and Portuguese names but resolutely refuse to use them when it comes to Turkish ones, in spite of being literally the same diacritics.

  75. 75.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Adam L Silverman:

    That said, naturally the judge could also vacate Flynn’s conviction, send the Special Counsel lawyers to Gitmo, and fire the flare that makes a great glowing Q-shaped brand in the sky signifying that all never-Trumpers are subject to the great purge.

    Something like that will probably eventually happen if McConnell gets his way with remaking the federal judiciary.

  76. 76.

    Adam L Silverman

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??: They were trying to animate him close to how Kirby drew him in the comics. The first video, which is the episode’s opening scene is an homage to this:
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35508961-mister-miracle-1971-1978-5

    Here’s the original Kirby art:
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4-M4O4LivWk/WR8ZGLQvN0I/AAAAAAAApcg/-mzz_el-ETUgAZMzkiV1yhlN9P3D8eVUQCLcB/s1600/mm4_004.png

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgspWlQeGA-KrjyDtXw07CKq3jVpAnyIA8WGE-wdMFvgiW9j3Y

  78. 78.

    Jay

    @Amir Khalid:

    Gulinist critiques center around the claims that Gulinist’s promote Gulinists.

    There’s a long history in Turkey, and before that, the Ottoman Empire, of the powers behind the throne, and it never really got better.

  81. 81.

    Mart

    All these “dumb crooks” i.e. top Trump staff – must have the prion disease so bad that they thought with the Mighty Trump, Fox and related propaganda, and congress – all rules were moot; and they could could loot as it pleased them.

  84. 84.

    Yarrow

    I’m so tired that when I see Gulen my brain turns it into Giuliani and I think, “I’m sure it’s wrong that someone wants to extradite him to Turkey but I’m having a hard time feeling it.”

  85. 85.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  ??

    @Yarrow:
    I’m sure Turkey wouldn’t want the Rudy Ghoul in their country anyway. His stupidity might be contagious.

    Also, to answer your question from downstairs, I sometimes tailgate Trumpists to “own the conservatards”.

    I only do it for a few brief seconds anyway. I haven’t done it in awhile, if that makes you feel any better and don’t plan on doing so again.

  86. 86.

    oldgold

    @Burnspbesq:
    Yes, attorneys are obligated to zealously represent their clients within the bounds of the law. But, in legal representation, like every other professional endeavor, zealotry has its limits. In the instant case, Flynn’s attorneys went too far and in so doing put their client at greater risk.

  90. 90.

    (((CassandraLeo)))

    @different-church-lady: If there’s any TV show that’s genuinely Shakespearean other than actual Shakespeare adaptations, it’s The Wire.

    I was assuming you meant Nietzsche’s “That which doesn’t kill me makes me stronger” quote, but The Wire quote is of course even better.

    …@ljt: “You come at the king, you best not miss.” I assume that’s the one she’s referencing, anyway.

  94. 94.

    Another Scott

    @Amir Khalid: Thanks. I haven’t looked closely, but this is the first non-Erdogan piece I’ve ever seen that “grants” that there might (or is?) something hinky about Gulen. It left a bad taste and seems unnecessary.

    Erdogan is a monster and a wannabe tyrant. Gulen isn’t in the same league by any means, AFAIK, and if someone wants to say or imply otherwise, then s/he should show their work.

    IMHO.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  95. 95.

    Fair Economist

    @rikyrah:

    NEW: Nancy PELOSI is winning a fight to suppress impeachment fervor among Democrats. She’s convinced them to focus on protecting MUELLER and waiting for his findings.

    Remember the real problem is not Trump, but the political manipulation system the Russians used to get him elected. Impeaching Trump is at best the cherry on the top of the real dessert. I suspect Nancy has been told this in the intelligence briefings for top Congressional members, although they would have to phrase it differently because Ryan and McConnell get them too.

  97. 97.

    Sab

    @gorram: Thank you. I don’t know anything about Turkish phonics, but I could never understand how his name could have it’s pronunciation what with the spelling. That thingy over the “g” makes sense. So it’s basically a whole different consonant, and western media pretends it’s just a usual “g” when it isn’t. What is that “thingy ” called?

  98. 98.

    Amir Khalid

    @Jay:
    Gulen and his people using their influence to do each other favours is not the greatest thing in the world, agreed; but it seems rather less malign than Erdogan’s authoritarianism.

  99. 99.

    sm*t cl*de

    @Sab:

    That thingy over the “g” makes sense. So it’s basically a whole different consonant, and western media pretends it’s just a usual “g” when it isn’t.

    It’s not even a consonant! The g-breve in Turkish is a way of separating two vowels so they don’t run together (and modifying them, depending on context) but it doesn’t have its own sound.

  101. 101.

    Chris Johnson

    @Doug R: No.

    Impeach, and everyone can act like it’s Trump doing all the bad stuff.

    It’s much of the Republican Party, plus the NRA, and who knows what else. Nancy is right and probably put it in those terms. You can’t JUST impeach Trump when you actually need to take out Trump, his entire staff, Pence, McConnell, Ryan, Fox News, Facebook, Google…

    It goes on and on. Doesn’t stop with Trump.

  102. 102.

    Another Scott

    @Chris Johnson: Kinda-sorta.

    As we know, government moves slowly. There have to be hearings and evidence and witnesses and court battles if Watergate is any guide. Coming in on Day 1 and demanding Impeachment isn’t the way it works.

    Republicans were decimated in the 1974 election.

    AFAIK, Nancy isn’t saying that the House can’t have its own investigations and hearings while Mueller continues with his. But talking as if the Impeachment process is going to be a priority on the first day is falling into a trap that the press wants. She and the Democrats need to use their new power wisely and that means achieving real actual legislation and getting real actual evidence in front of voters (and the press) well before November 2020.

    There is time, and if the process plays out as it should, Trump won’t be the only one in touble…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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