Trump used her slain daughter to rail against illegal immigration. She chose a different path. https://t.co/BI23NQj3up
— Javier Gamboa (@JJavierGamboa) December 28, 2018
Terrence McCoy, in the Washington Post:
… Laura Calderwood, whose daughter, Mollie Tibbetts, 20, was allegedly killed by an undocumented immigrant and left to rot in a cornfield this past summer, closed the mailbox, walked up the steps to her house and turned on the stove. It was getting on toward 6, and she needed to get dinner going. The boys would be hungry.
There were two inside the house now. One was her son, Mollie’s younger brother, a high school senior named Scott. And the other was his friend, a courteous teenager named Ulises Felix. He was the child of Mexican immigrants. For years, his parents had lived and worked beside her daughter’s alleged killer at the same dairy farm on the other side of town, which they fled after the man’s arrest, leaving behind not only Brooklyn, but also Ulises, their 17-year-old son. He’d wanted to finish high school in the only town he’d ever known, and soon, remarkably, he had a new home — the home of Mollie Tibbetts — where Laura had promised to look after him in his parents’ absence…
The stories almost always begin the same way. A son or daughter is dead, and an undocumented immigrant is blamed. Aggrieved and adrift, the parents search for meaning in it all, some finding what they can in obsession and hatred. “In my life we’re going to find the trash who killed my kid,” said Scott Root of Council Bluffs, Iowa, whose daughter, Sarah Root, 21, was killed in 2016, allegedly by an undocumented drunk driver who was released after partially paying bail and then disappeared. Others find meaning in political transformation. “I became a Republican,” said Sabine Durden of Mineral Springs, Ark., whose son was killed by an undocumented immigrant in a traffic collision. And still others in activism: “My story needed to get out,” said Laura Wilkerson of Pearland, Tex., whose son, Josh Wilkerson, 18, was beaten to death in 2010 by an undocumented immigrant.
Then there is Laura Calderwood. Fifty-five, with curly blond hair and a halting gait, she is a lifelong liberal who didn’t abandon her politics. She feels anger like the others, but not toward an entire group of people. She’s not afraid of the demographic change remaking the country. But she does fear the deepening polarization. So she never goes to political rallies — never speaks publicly — because she believes that would just inflame things. Instead, she tries to live every day, including this one, just as she did before it all happened.
By late afternoon, Laura had finished up her shift at the grocery store, where she works in the catering department, and gotten into her white SUV. She drove through nearby Grinnell, pulling up to the public library, as always, seeking a sense of calm in its quiet. She went in and sat near the magazines, one of which she had been reading the afternoon of July 19, when her phone rang…
The landscape on the drive home was a rolling splash of dull browns, marked by election signs, including one for Republican Gov. Kim Reynolds. She had taught Laura everything she needed to know about politics.The day it was broadcast that Mollie was found, Reynolds called and wept with her on the phone. Laura had been moved by her tenderness — and still was — but then, on that same day, Reynolds issued a public statement. Gone was the empathetic woman from the phone call and instead was someone now using the words “predator” and “broken immigration system.” The next statement was even harsher, this one from Trump. He’d never called Laura, knew little about her daughter, but had no problem, Laura thought, using Mollie’s death to try to end immigration policies he now referred to as “pathetic.”
Laura hated the sound of Mollie’s name coming from his mouth. His words were the opposite of who Mollie was, advancing a “cause she vehemently opposed,” as her father, Rob Tibbetts, who’s separated from Laura, wrote in a newspaper column soon after her funeral. She’d wanted to welcome all immigrants who needed help. So when Scott soon came to Laura with an unusual request — could they take Ulises in? — she asked what had happened. The nation, it seemed, was directing its anger about Mollie’s death toward Yarrabee Farms, where her alleged killer had worked, deluging it with vitriolic messages. The immigrant families who worked there were fleeing.
Laura thought of Mollie. She would argue that the farmworkers didn’t deserve this, that they were only trying to earn a living. What would she say about Ulises? Bring him in? Laura thought that his father may be undocumented and worried about attracting unwanted attention, but again, what would Mollie say?…
It’s an amazing story, of which this is just a snippet, and you should definitely read the whole thing. If you can’t get beyond the paywall (is Amazon still offering special rates for WaPo subscriptions?), save the link and read it Wednesday!
rikyrah
Good Morning,Everyone ???
NotMax
For a low key last Sunday of the year morning, something nice to hear about and nice to look at.
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
Betty Cracker
I read that story in The Post the other day and was awed by that woman’s strength and grace. Definitely worth reading the whole thing.
Michael Bersin
Prompted by a social media post from a Missouri reporter citing his favorite photo of the year (the moving van behind the Governor’s mansion in Jefferson City on the day Eric Greitens resigned) , I looked through my own photo archives and selected my personal favorite. At a large immigration demonstration on June 22nd in front of Representative Kevin Yoder’s (r) district office in downtown Overland Park, Kansas:
My favorite image of the year – June 22, 2018 – Overland Park, Kansas
Four months later and Sharice Davids (D) is the Representative-elect in the 3rd Congressional District of Kansas.
Quinerly
Good morning from Poco and his tribe!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Michael Bersin: Things are looking up in Kansas. I guess there comes a point where people notice the outrages.
Betty Cracker
@Michael Bersin: Wonderful photo! So glad that district will have better representation starting next week!
JPL
@NotMax: What beautiful works of art. thank you for the link.
Michael Bersin
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Over five hundred people showed up at that protest. That’s when I realized Kevin Yoder’s (r) reelection was in serious trouble People showed up in Overland Park (Johnson County), Kansas and Yoder continued to be a hardline Trump enabler. The general election results weren’t even close.
JPL
Not long after Mollie’s death another female was murdered in Iowa. Her name was Celia Barquin Arozamena and she was an amateur golfer who attended ISU. Her death didn’t receive the coverage because she was Spanish and was murdered by a white male. Trump ignored her death for reasons known to all of us.
Mollie’s mom is a good, kind soul.
Michael Bersin
@Betty Cracker:
People were lined up on the sidewalk on the street and down the street in front of Yoder’s (r) district office (in a small office complex). Usually people with signs face the street (and everyone else here did). I noticed this individual from a distance with her back to the street. When I got closer and saw what she was wearing I shot a series of images from across the street. This image has it all – the jacket, the look, the held up sign, and the people around her.
satby
@rikyrah: @Baud: Good morning ?
@NotMax: amazing works!
rikyrah
@Quinerly:
Morning to Poco and the tribe ??
rikyrah
Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) Tweeted:
1) As Trump ends the year with a flood of lies about his wall, we need to recapture a core truth about this presidency.
Trump isn’t “twisting the truth” or “stubbornly refusing to admit error.”
Trump is engaged in *disinformation.*
This is a different thing entirely.
*THREAD*
https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1079347370310205440?s=17
rikyrah
I Am Chained To A Black Woman Send $27 (@BravenakBlog) Tweeted:
Let’s discuss this:
Bernie dismisses “gay people”, “black” and “latino people” (not a big enough voting block).
He states that white working class people are the key to his Revolution.
Why should black women even consider him?
We’re not white.
https://t.co/cu6bczMLPD https://twitter.com/BravenakBlog/status/1079366831255674882?s=17
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah: Berniebros might as well be MAGAts.
In the words of the great efgoldman, fuck ’em.
rikyrah
Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) Tweeted:
When you find yourselves dissing Kamala Harris as “inexperienced” while pushing Beto, maybe ask yourselves how the former AG of the most populous state is “inexperienced.”
Having a vagina doesn’t make you inexperienced.
https://twitter.com/VABVOX/status/1079234620368084993?s=17
Immanentize
Happy Sunday, All!
@NotMax:
Thank you! but fie on you! Almost every day you send me on some fabulist chase through the web. If not music, art. The follow on link in the vision impaired artist article is to black visual artists and it’s fabulous too.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: Do you (or anyone else here) know if there a source for that quote that isn’t behind a paywall? I’ve seen it on Reddit and now on Twitter, but I’ve never been able to track down the article it comes from. A partial copy search turns up a link to a National Journal article, but you have to be a subscriber to access it.
Immanentize
@JPL:
I, of course, didn’t know Celia’s story. A while back I did some research on the “missing white woman” phenomena. It still is a strong race compromised story line in this country. Thanks for that balancing.
Immanentize
@rikyrah:
Yes the Bernie quote is amazing but this is also excellent;
Ha!
Baud
@rikyrah:
He’s obviously correct about the relative sizes of buying blocs but it’s irrelevant since we are nowhere close to getting WWC to vote for us at anywhere near the same percentages as minorities do. The most we can hope for is increasing our share by a couple of points.
But if he thinks it’s so easy, why doesn’t he do it instead of demanding that other people make the attempt?
Baud
@Immanentize: Agreed. Hilarious.
debbie
@rikyrah:
“Disinformation” is a euphemism. He’s fucking lying. Period.
Baud
@Baud: buying=voting
Immanentize
@Baud:
Bernie isn’t working to appeal to a winning voting block. He is demanding people vote for him rather than someone else. And the only path he has is to first demand that only his voters are meaningful and therefore the votes that his competition gets are not (i.e. minority and women’s votes). This counting of the relative numbers in voting blocks is of a piece with his demand.
Meanwhile, Vermont is still white.
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah: What is infuriating is the vermin of the Village refuse, absolutely refuse, to report the truth that is right in front of their faces.
debbie
@Immanentize:
I wish the people who didn’t support Sanders paid less attention to him. Like the spoiled child throwing a tantrum, let him wear himself out.
Immanentize
@Baud:
I knew what auto correct did there, but I was going to point out that Nike might have a different view of buying blocks….
Villago Delenda Est
Bernie is far more afraid of Beto than Kamala. His misogyny is as much his weakness as his racism is.
Immanentize
@debbie:
I think that is slowly coming to pass, but we are two years away from the election and he is an unfinished story and happily gives media content.
Baud
@Immanentize: Good point.
@debbie: He won’t wear out. He’ll either be our nominee or he’ll lose and cause us harm. We have to be prepared.
Kay
That would be the common sense conclusion, right? What you might guess? But it’s backed up by study after study after study, over 40 years. People look for other “solutions” because they don’t like this one but they know this one works so if they don’t mention it you can be fairly confident they’re not looking for “what works”, they’re looking for “what works that also fits my ideological beliefs”.
debbie
@Baud:
I cannot imagine a scenario where Bernie Sanders becomes the candidate of the Democratic Party. Don’t come back at me about Trump. Democrats are not Republicans.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I don’t think he will be our nominee but I do think he wants to cause us harm. He is very much like T, right down to the immigrant and minority hatred and misogyny.
Democratic party is pretty much the last institution standing between us and Putin. Attacks are to be expected.
Frankensteinbeck
@Baud:
If everything is class war and bigotry is merely the rich dividing the poor, all you have to do is point the poor at the real enemy. They’re waiting for someone to address the real problem, not fight the distractions or coddle the rich by pretending mere regulation will work. Bernie has devoted his entire life to this class war philosophy and certainly isn’t going to abandon the lens through which he sees the world just because he tried it and it didn’t work.
…is what I used to think. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, until he tried to coopt the anti-gun youth movement. He’s against gun control, but was right there taking credit and trying to tell a new generation of idealists the Democrats were the problem.
Fuck that guy. Fuck him. He’s a deliberate ratfucker and the only question is if he works for Putin or just is happy to have Putin’s help.
And yes, this important and we should never let go of it, because Sanders is still ratfucking us.
Schlemazel
@rikyrah:
The behaviour of the bros the last couple of weeks have convinced me they are actually led by Putin’s kids in St. Petersburg. They are so ham handed and so over the top driven to divide Democrats. I don’t see how this ends well for us.
germy
This clip of Bernie telling his wife “Don’t stand next to me.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9MDXJy6BDQ
He wanted the podium to himself.
There’s a bunch of clips online of Bernie waving women away dismissively. There’s one where he enters a room, is introduced to an important woman but walks right past her to greet a man standing near her.
He’s of a generation where the revolution was for men, and the women were only there to make sandwiches and sweep up after the speeches. Even John Lennon noticed it during his time with people like Jerry Rubin, and Lennon was definitely oldschool (but trying to learn).
Baud
@debbie: I think it’s unlikely, but most Dems still have a favorable view of him and it’ll be a crowded field.
WaterGirl
@debbie: I agree that Trump is lying. He lies every day.
I have not read the article, but I have thought about this quite a bit since listening to one of Preet’s early podcasts — perhaps the one with Bill Browder — where he talks about disinformation as a very effective strategy. People no longer trust their government, elections, their institutions. It’s what Trump saying Fake News is all about.
After hearing about that on the podcast a year ago, it has been impossible for me to watch what is going on with out seeing disinformation techniques at every turn.
Trump and his administration are emulating the disinformation tactics of Russian and Putin. That’s why it’s important to see the disinformation campaign for what it is.
Trump is lying, and he probably always has, but to me it’s undeniable that he is doing so, at least in part, as part of the greater disinformation campaign.
Immanentize
@germy: I think Bernie never got past the ‘glory’ days of the civil Rights movement:
Stokely Carmichael, 1964
(To add — Carmichael was a staunch supporter of women’s rights so it is unclear what he was doing when he said this, but say it he did)
Baud
@Immanentize: Snark gone wrong?
Kay
Kelly begins his image rehabilitation:
Hey- did you know it was never a “wall”? Trump and Kelly just made that up, to trick Trump supporters. Kelly wants you to know that now- that he’d never back anything stupid, like a wall. On the inside, where it matters, he’s really a smart and nuanced individual. So why did he appear to back all those things? One word- duty. It was his duty.
Also- most of the racist stuff came from Jeff Sessions. Just so you know.
rikyrah
@Schlemazel:
It will end fine for us because real Democrats are not playing with these muthaphuckas ?
satby
@Baud: if Bernie is “our” nominee it’s going to be time to flee the fucking country.
satby
@Frankensteinbeck:
Nothing but the truth.
Schlemazel
@rikyrah:
It did not end well for us in 2016 so I lack your confidence
rikyrah
@Kay:
John Kelly ain’t shyt
“They will be put in foster care……..OR WHATEVER”
Referring to stolen migrant children.
He should NEVER be allowed to walk away from that comment.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
And most maddening is that no one calls him out in plain language. I want a reporter/interviewer who skips all the introductory clauses and contextual lead-ins and instead uses Hemingwayesque brevity. “Why are you lying?” “Why did you say X?”
rikyrah
@Schlemazel:
We didn’t know then what we know now.
And, I say it again….. the actual BASE of the Democratic Party will determine the nominee.
WaterGirl
I had an eye-opening experience at Christmas with my family, most of whom put Trump in office by voting for him, voting third party, or not voting at all.
I finally understand Obama-Trump voters.
We mostly don’t discuss politics, but someone else brought it up. I ended up saying “people who voted for Trump got exactly what they voted for”. My brother-in-law agreed. He’s the one who said to me in the car this past summer, when he admitted he voted for Trump: “Well, I sure wasn’t gonna vote for the lying bitch!”
His daughter, who had told me privately that she thought both he and my sister regretted their votes for Trump, made some sort of comment during this conversation that led her dad, my BIL, to say:
And then he went on to say what a liar she is. I said “you think Hillary lies more than Trump?”, and he said yes and went on about how awful Hillary would have been. All I said was “That’s really sad.” And then my sister said “Let’s not talk about politics, how ’bout those Cubs?” and the conversation was over. Two days later, I got a hug and a kiss goodbye, but no “love you”, as I always do.
I finally understand Obama-Trump voters. Who was Obama running against in 2008? Hillary. They weren’t going to “vote for the lying bitch!” in 2008, so they voted for the black man. Even he was better than the lying bitch, am I right? In 2016, that meant voting for the narcissistic sociopath. I am in awe of how much you have to hate someone in order to vote for the man how has no soul.
Immanentize
@Baud: That’s my best guess — repeating something ‘clever’
I’ve certainly made that mistake in life. Luckily, not so publically
Schlemazel
@Kay:
Someone, I think on one of the overnight threads (sorry I do not remember who or where) said we need to be prepared for a flood of books from Ex-Dump admin lackies. They will explain they hated having to enact the policies of hair furor and they only stayed to try to stop or mitigate the worst of them.
They will of course all be lying through their teeth but it will be enough for the kool kids of the beltway to forgive them so the next time there is a Republican POTUS they will be back
germy
@Schlemazel:
The 2018 mid terms were impressive.
Schlemazel
@rikyrah:
the actual base determined the nominee in 2016 but Putin was still able to get people to stay home, vote for Stein or even Dump.
I’m sorry to be so negative but how are we going to beat these bastards back in 2020? I am counting on the great uninformed and those still sore from being screwed by Dump to recognize the Republicans must be defeated but the bros will still be driving wedges
germy
@Immanentize:
Or did he? I understand disinfo was big in those days.
Kay
@rikyrah:
The Trump insiders are valuable, though, because they chip away at the idea that he’s invulnerable and impossible to beat.
They cared a lot about the image of them as baby jailers. They care a lot about how they’re perceived. To insist they don’t is to hand them too much power. The fact that they can’t manage to be seen as anything other than assholes does not mean they don’t care if they’re perceived as assholes. It just means they can’t pull it off. They can’t successfully behave as OTHER than the assholes that they are, although they desperately want to appear to be decent people.
Schlemazel
@germy:
Bernie & Dr. Stein did not work their magic in 2018. It does give me hope that so many turned out for the good guys but I still want to be prepared for the onslaught.
WaterGirl
One more thing… in 2008 while canvassing for Barack Obama in Indiana, when asked if he knew who he was going to vote for, one guy said “I guess I’m gonna have to vote for the ni**er”. I was shocked. It was shortly after McCain had said the economy was just fine, and I assumed that’s what had prompted this fellow’s decision.
Now I find myself thinking that even the black guy was better than “the bitch”.
Just how much do you have to hate someone to be willing to sell out your country, your fellow citizens, and the future of democracy?
rikyrah
@Schlemazel:
And, also, folks are not interested in playing nice. They have shown themselves. Bernie has shown himself. He didn’t do shyt for the 2018 elections, and thinks that people didn’t notice??
He didn’t want us to do well in the 2018 elections.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
I have to admit I thought Hillary Clinton would be problematic, based on decades of Clinton Hatred. I would not have been surprised if any other Republican had won the election. But, my god, Trump!
I still am not speaking to my family. They came over late on Thanksgiving Eve, but I turned them away. I have heard from a friend that my youngest brother (the one I was closest to) is filled with regret. Well, he should be. But is he willing to say out loud that he made a mistake in voting for Trump? Or will he whine as your BIL did about not being able to vote for Hillary?
I don’t know what it will take to reconcile with him.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: No. They are all bigots and racists or enablers at the very least. Including the so called Warrior Monk. He stood there like a potted plant when T signed the Muslim ban, when the DHS closed USCIS offices on the bases, that helped eligible veterans apply for citizenship if they wanted. When bigots in the admin tried to get rid of the program that gave permanent resident status to immigrants in the military who had skills such as language skills that the military lacked, he did nothing. Only litigation against the government overturned that decision. He let the troops be deployed to the border for a purely partisan stunt, just before the midterms.
He was fired by President Obama for being an anti-Iran zealot. That’s why T hired him. And then there was Theranos, where a pretty girl managed to pool wool over his eyes. He used his stature to help Theranos.
rikyrah
@Schlemazel:
Speaking of Jill Stein…her fradulent azz is continuing to be exposed to, which we also didn’t have in 2016.
Kay
@Schlemazel:
But the flip side of the excuse making and the image rehabilitation is this- Trump’s policies are unacceptable. His own low quality hires reject them as soon as they leave his employ, because they feel they have to in order to sit on boards or lobby or whatever private sector career they’re planning post-Trump. It’s a validation of opposition to Trump. So we should find it heartening and encouraging. They agree with us. There’s a consensus.
They’re not at all invulnerable. They want to rejoin the consensus. I’m with you- I don’t think they should get off that easy, but the explanations and excuses are a validation of the opposition position.
WaterGirl
@Kay:
He’s admitting that he was a fucking babysitter to a child who couldn’t be controlled, even from the next room.
Do these people even listen to themselves?
Baud
@WaterGirl: The saddest part is that people think that hatred is somehow limited to Hillary. She’s a focal point, but hatred like that goes much deeper.
I’m sorry you have to deal with this.
Quinerly
@rikyrah: Tail wags, meows, and waves back at you!
rikyrah
@WaterGirl:
I admit that I underestimated the misogyny in 2016. I I only thought that I understood it.
Baud
@Kay: Playing good cop, bad cop with America.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: Jamelle Bouie wrote an interesting piece at Slate earlier this week on how Trump activated racism as a decision-making criteria within white folks who favored Obama over McCain and Romney. It seems counter-intuitive since Obama is black and Hillary is white, but the point is Obama’s opponents didn’t explicitly make racism the center of their campaigns like Trump did. I think there’s a lot of truth to that theory, though it doesn’t address the role of sexism, which was also a huge part of it, IMO.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Oh, sure. I agree. Even Kelly’s basic excuse is bullshit- he says it’s up to lawmakers to reform immigration laws. But Trump and Kelly and Sessions didn’t succeed in passing anything and they had 2 years with a majority, which is what most Presidents get.
They failed. They didn’t reform immigration at all. They took a series of executive actions many of which were overturned by courts. That’s considered a failure in policy. They didn’t move the ball on legislation, which is (rightfully) considered success because it’s hard.
Everything Trump has done on immigration will be undone by the next President. They packed the courts with far Right judges but even that can be mitigated with immigration legislation.
Trump’s legislative accomplishment is that tax cut. He spent the wad on that, and he won’t get anything else.
WaterGirl
@debbie:
Maybe a letter to everyone in your family where you state how you are feeling?
Say that you love them but you can’t be around people who support the awful things being done by Trump (this is a placeholder for your reasons) and then say that people make mistakes, sometimes terrible ones, and that if someone regrets their choices and is trying to make up for it (again, a placeholder for whatever you feel) that you can respect that they can realize their mistake and say so, and you would welcome them back in to your life (placeholder).
Immanentize
@germy: I think that one is pretty well documented. Reported by his allies, not by his enemies. (He actually said “SNCC” instead of “movement” at a SNCC planning committee mtg it seems.)
Here’s an interesting article about the women leaders of SNCC with a forward about “that quote.”. It still in that context could Have been bad humor gone bad
Schlemazel
@rikyrah:
The Green Party needs to be sent to the waste bin of history, there should be enough room for them next to the GOP
WaterGirl
@Baud: I appreciate what you wrote. It is very sad, on so many levels.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Democrats were desperate for an immigration bill they could back. They almost backed George W Bush’s. Ted Kennedy made huge concessions and he was almost there.
Trump blew it. He should have taken Schumer’s offer. But he’s an asshole so he thought he could come in there and start shouting at people because his asshole bully act always worked in real estate. He’s a bad negotiator. He could have had his wall and a congressional win, but the asshole act was more valuable to him.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: FWIW I don’t think the being in the WH activated the racism. I think it was the fact Obama won twice, that stuck in the craw of many a soft racist, like my ex-friend. Who became more and more unhinged post 2012. And she even voted for Obama twice. The turning point was BLM and Obama’s identifying with the black victims of police brutality. T was just the vessel for the bigotry that was unleashed in the second half of Obama’s second term.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: I think I underestimated the misogyny in 2008. In 2016, I was pretty sure it would end badly if Hillary ran, so I maybe wasn’t as surprised by it as some people were.
But I never dreamed that the Hillary hate was so deep and so strong that millions of people would personify the old addage about cutting off your nose to spite your face. My mistake was underestimating the sheer recklessness and total loss of perspective of the Hillary haters that drove people to put Trump in office.
CliosFanBoy
@Immanentize: One of his associates told me he meant it sarcastically.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Orange Person, with encouragement from Kelly and Miller wanted to destroy legal immigration as it exists today. Ds rightfully said no to that “compromise”.
Immanentize
@rikyrah:
This a thousand million billion times. He did not work for Democratic candidates in 2018, except those mainly that lost. No reality based candidate in 2020 can think he has coattails. Or cash. Or hidden voters.
To stay relevant, Democrats had to lose in 2018 and they won, big.
ETA CLARITY
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: I will read the article, thanks.
Discouraging title, but hopefully forewarned is forearmed.
debbie
@Kay:
I’ve lost track of the offers. Was this the one for $25B that provided for the Wall and for citizenship for Dreamers?
Frankensteinbeck
@Betty Cracker:
I believe there’s a huge element most people don’t get, because they don’t get how racism works. They expect it to be simple and direct, and it rarely is. Obama getting elected, and even more so Obama getting reelected, changed everything. It is totally different when white people are being gracious to blacks and giving them a seat at the table. Note the word ‘giving.’ When Obama actually became president, and was their boss, a lot of people who voted for him couldn’t handle it. Then in 2012, he got reelected despite everyone knowing it was against the will of white America. It wasn’t given. He won it despite them. That was titanic. Even more people who had voted for him couldn’t handle it actually happening. Honestly, the Obama-to-Trump effect wasn’t as big as people think, because there’s always a significant random vote, but those events and those feelings provoked seismic shifts to the right, which includes some people who used to lean liberal.
Immanentize
@CliosFanBoy: That makes sense and has always been my wish/suspicion. I thank you — it is good to get a direct report.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: I think you make a great point about the BLM movement being a factor. Gotta admit I was surprised by some of the white outrage on that from people I know. I’m not at all sure PBO would have been reelected had it been underway in 2012. Trump ran with it in an overt way someone like Rubio or Jeb Bush wouldn’t have, but maybe it wouldn’t have mattered.
Immanentize
@WaterGirl: Bouie’s conclusion in the article is
Cheryl Rofer
@Immanentize: It was taken as spoken. It’s hard to find an alternative meaning. And it damaged Carmichael, certainly in women’s eyes. Bernie definitely comes from the “prone” part of the civil rights movement. He added to that his white privilege. What’s amazing is that he doesn’t seem to have changed over the intervening 50 years.
BruceFromOhio
@NotMax: These are beautiful, thank you very much for sharing. Here is a companion piece from the same site that was also quite remarkable.
gogiggs
@NotMax: Enjoyed that very much. Thank you.
Steeplejack
@Betty Cracker:
Yes, it’s from a National Journal piece (in 2014!). The longest excerpt I have found is deep in an LGM thread.
Miss Bianca
@rikyrah: You and me both. But I also underestimated the sheer amount of racism among my fellow white people that caused them to lose their shit so completely over a black man in the White House that they would willingly, even eagerly, vote for a sorry piece of racist, sexist, xenophobic trash like Donald Trump for President.
I thought I had some idea of how bad it really was. I was stunningly naive.
Never again. Never, never again will I make that mistake.
oldgold
In this dark Age of Trump, informed by his amoral transactional ethos, it is easy to forget there are lots of good people like the Tibbets. Thank for for sharing this inspiring story.
Yarrow
@debbie: @WaterGirl:
Completely agree. The word “lying” doesn’t have magic powers, as Kay likes to remind us. Use the word or don’t use it, but using it will change nothing.
The more important thing is to recognize and call out the disinformation campaign being waged on us, as WaterGirl pointed out. It’s essential that we understand what is being done and develop techniques and strategies for dealing with it. I keep talking about needing a comprehensive education program about propaganda–what it is, how it affects our society, how to identify it and combat it. Disinformation is part of that overall strategy (I’m using “propaganda” as a catch-all word but really it has many parts) and needs to be part of the education program. As a society we are woefully uneducated in this area and are far too easily manipulated.
Miss Bianca
@NotMax: Oh wow, so lush and beautiful. Thank you.
tobie
@debbie: I understand where you’re coming from. Railing against Bernie is kind of a no-win proposition. It increases his visibility, and being angry and/or appalled is exhausting. On the other hand, we’re living with the real consequences of his actions, and I don’t just mean the election of Trump because he was a sore loser who, in Larry David’s words, decided, “If I can’t win, I’ll bring everyone down with me.” He helped turn millennials against the party (“the establishment,” “the elite,” “neoliberal shills,” etc.) and, above all, against politics as deliberative process requiring expertise to craft legislation that helps the vast majority of the people.
germy
@Cheryl Rofer:
Beto went from being universally cheered (when he was up against the zodiac killer) to being attacked as a neoliberal centrist. Sirota and other Bernie surrogates are trying to smash him down before he becomes a threat to them.
So… how long before that fat opposition book on Bernie gets opened?
When an opponent signals it’s time for gloves off, shouldn’t the gloves come off?
WaterGirl
@Immanentize: Interesting. I’m not sure I agree with it. The fires of racial and class divisions that Trump stoked — that might be a bell that can’t be un-rung.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: His appeals are losing their edge, Rs got a drubbing in the midterms with the all bigotry all the time campaign rhetoric of the T era Rs.
Quinerly
Apologies if already discussed. I only have time to dip in and out, randomly. Kelly is blaming Sessions for the child separation policy. He is a real stand up guy, ain’t he?
“Outgoing White House chief of staff John Kelly, reflecting on his tenure working with President Trump, blamed former Attorney General Jeff Sessions for the controversial “zero tolerance” policy that separated immigrant families at the southern border. In an exit interview with the Los Angeles Times, he also admitted the border wall — a signature promise by Mr. Trump — isn’t really a wall.”
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: I hope you’re right!
geg6
@Kay:
Fuck him right up his racist ass. With a rusty chainsaw.
Luthe
It’s not a wall, it’s a state of mind. A closed, blinkered, xenophobic state of mind.
Frankensteinbeck
@Cheryl Rofer:
It’s really easy to hold onto your bigotry when you tell yourself every day that bigotry doesn’t really exist, it’s just rich people playing divide-and-conquer games with the poor.
Immanentize
@tobie: @germy:
Reading this thread, I may have bought a clue. The next election will be a change or stay election (most are) but it will also be a generational change election — old versus new. Take the race and gender and justice realities of today, I don’t think a Biden or a Bernie or even a Warren can beat Trump. (ETA: may not be able to beat Trump).
That would make it a change election only. But a Harris or a Beto or a … Whoever born after 1960 can make it both change and new. Then it’s Kennedy versus Nixon. Close, but win to us.
Ladyraxterinok
@JPL: IIRC the IaState golfer was highly ranked in US women’s amateur golf and was well known in Spain.
I believe she was murdered by some male who felt she had rejected him. He tried to hide her body in underbrush near the golf course.
Immanentize
@Frankensteinbeck:
I have a friend who used to say, “the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is the question of how much of the pie do you have to distribute to stay in power.” He doesn’t say that anymore.
Fair Economist
@debbie:
“Disinformation” is not a euphemism here, it’s a deliberate and complex campaign of lying to profoundly confuse people.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: No one wants to work for him either. We have an acting CoS and an acting AG. I don’t recall this happening before.
WaterGirl
@Quinerly: They can tell themselves whatever they want, but they are all collaborators, and worse.
Frankensteinbeck
@Immanentize:
Trump has been a loud wake-up call to a whole lot of people. I think the Republican attempt to repeal Obamacare was equally loud. Formerly disinterested people know their lives are on the line.
tobie
@Immanentize: I think you’re onto something! If someone like Harris or Beto can get people enthusiastic about the political process and the process of governing, I would be overjoyed. Reagan spearheaded the whole ‘government-officials-don’t-now-crap’ and ‘nothing-beats-the-wisdom-of-the-common-man’ ideology. Rightwing and leftwing populists have continued in this vein. If we can move past this approach, we would really restore our democracy.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Agree. I think it’s because they don’t want the Trump stink to get on them, not because they no longer agree with the goals and beliefs of this administration.
It’s not because of principles.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: I fervently hope none of the over-70s is our candidate. It’s time to move on.
OT: My DIL invited me to see Mary Poppins with her. She’s picking me up soon. I’m so flattered she asked, though I suspect my son refused to go which is how she wound up with me.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: Don’t forget that although Black Lives Matter was a real movement it was “weaponized” by Russian bots and trolls as an active measure to increase the rift in our society. This issue has been documented in court filings. The fear by white people was stoked online via troll accounts with thousands of followers.
It’s kind of incredible how easily we were manipulated once you start looking at it.
Fair Economist
It’s ironic that Sanders’ surrogates are attacking Beto for not toeing the party line on trivialities like allowing oil exports when Sanders has opposed improving gun control, which really is a central and unifying issue for the Democratic coalition.
geg6
@WaterGirl:
Too fucking late. If they identify as a Republican, a conservative or an evangelical, they already reek of Trump stink. It’s too fucking late but they don’t know that yet.
Betty Cracker
@Quinerly: I wish the LA Times article would have spent more time on Kelly’s outrageous lies about Rep. Wilson instead of briefly noting that video contradicted Kelly’s slanderous claims and then segueing into a sympathetic paragraph on Kelly’s status as a Gold Star parent. Kelly repeatedly lied about Wilson, was caught red-handed in the lie, and refused to budge from it. Maybe it’s the Trump Effect, but there was a time when a CoS being exposed so thoroughly as an unrepentant liar would have merited more than a sentence.
Fair Economist
@Kay: Democrats didn’t “almost” support Bush’s bill, they supported it far more than Republicans. In the final vote there were 33 Democrats for but only 12 Republicans. It’s been Republican killing immigration reform, over and over again, for 12 years now.
Immanentize
@Fair Economist:
From Law Like Love — WH Auden
Gelfling 545
@rikyrah: Personally, I think a Harris/O’Rourke ticket would be splendid.
Betty Cracker
@Yarrow: True. But as you said, the movement was real, and I believe the negative reaction to it was organic as well; Russian trollery just exacerbated it. I don’t think we’re even remotely prepared to confront similar onslaughts in the future.
Fair Economist
@Schlemazel:
In terms of beating Trump, it’s not that hard. MI and PA will flip back. That means we have to flip one more state from AZ, FL, IA, NC, or WI (there are others that might flip but we’ll flip one of those 5 first). Not guaranteed, but odds are certainly in our favor.
Ladyraxterinok
@rikyrah: Thanks for link. I miss her posts at democraticunderground. The berniebros there really went after her.
Immanentize
@Gelfling 545: me too.
Criminal law, Senate and House experience. From two of the most prosperous and populated states. I like.
But I suspect that if either gets the nod, they will pick a wise old man as VP to soothe the nerves (think LBJ, Mondale, Cheney, Biden). The one exception I can think of is Clinton/Gore which was undoubtedly a change/new campaign.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
In that same tantrum, he said (paraphrasing from memory) that we used to hold Gold star families sacred, not anymore, as we saw at the convention last year. So he was effectively saying that the Kahn family had sacrificed their Gold Star standing by exercising their first amendment rights when they felt attacked by the racist demagogue he works for.
The whole thing was, as Lawrence O’Donnell instantly recognized, a scream of pent-up rage from an old “ethnic” racist from the places where Jim Crow was a norm instead of a law, couched in Kelly’s remarkable and horrific decision to offer up his dead son on the altar of trump. It hasn’t gotten enough attention
Hitlesswonder
@Betty Cracker: As a society, we seem to need to identify people as “good” or “bad”. We really have difficulty accepting that people do both good and bad things. It is hard for people to reconcile that Kelly, who served his country and bore the death of his son, could also be a liar and a promulgator of policies that take children from parents.
Fair Economist
@Immanentize: IMO there’s a good chance of a double candidate ticket like Harris/O’Rourke because there’s a good chance we’ll have a hung convention and that’s an obvious solution. I’m just hoping Sanders isn’t one of the two, although maybe he would be OK as the #2.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: That’s why I keep talking about the need for a comprehensive education program on recognizing and combating these techniques. One of the main techniques is to take already existing cracks and make them larger. The BLM movement is real, the racism is real. But it was all made worse by manipulation by enemy actors. We need to know about that, be able to identify it, and be ready to combat it.
People need to question if they’re being manipulated and have techniques to stop it from happening. We are not going to be ready to confront it if we don’t take steps to do so. Here’s a BBC article on what Sweden is doing to combat Russian interference in their elections. Excerpt:
If you click through to the article, the education program paragraph has a link to materials for that program.
Ladyraxterinok
@germy: What Male ‘revolutionary’ of the 60s (in)famously said ‘The only place for women in the movement is prone’!!!!
Brachiator
@Ladyraxterinok:
Sadly, the circumstances of this woman’s death were horrific, but not as you recalled.
It’s likely that the golfer had no idea who this man was at all.
Homelessness, mental illness, irrational hatred directed at women are issues that a humane presidential administration might give some attention to. But Trump only cares about scapegoating non-white immigrants and stoking fear and hatred among his supporters.
O. Felix Culpa
@Cheryl Rofer:
Bernie is not a learner.
QED: “[Sanders] has an overarching view that transcends [sic] our racial and gender differences,” says Tom Hayden, the Students for a Democratic Society hero and former California legislator. “It’s the older view of the socialists who thought class issues could unite all. To ask him to drop that is asking him to change his identity.”
Wapiti
@Yarrow:
There’s an entire industry that exists to manipulate people. Supermarkets place similar items high or low, left or right, in order to manipulate us into buying one brand/size over another brand/size. People are manipulable.
Having said that, I think many people have little trust in organizations that could be sources of good information. There’s long and ongoing patterns of deception, from churches, the government, and the press. And corporations of course.
JPL
Netflix has the movie Atonement for streaming. I saw it when it was first released so knew the story, but sometimes as the movie shows , forgiveness is not enough. The movie is worth watching again.
@geg6: True.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I still despise Chuck Todd, but credit where credit’s due
Yarrow
@Wapiti: I agree but we will continue to be easily manipulated if we don’t do something to combat it. Political ads have long been part of our political landscape and they’re just as manipulative as anything else. The thing is we have put some rules around them–like the candidate has to say they approve the message, that kind of thing. What happened via social media has no rules and controls and thus people were much more easily swayed.
Frankensteinbeck
@Brachiator:
To be fair, he really god damn hates women and doesn’t care if they’re murdered (he actively wants them to be raped) unless it justifies his hatred of brown people.
debbie
@Frankensteinbeck:
I believe there is a relatively small percentage of Trumpsters who are racists, but I am pretty sure most of his followers saw this racism, saw that it hit a chord, and joined in because they thought they could turn it to their advantage (ie, here’s how I’ll get my tax cut!).
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The RWNJ outrage will be quite entertaining.
debbie
@Immanentize:
It’s more like “how much of the pie do I get? How much do I get to keep?”
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Todd is maddening, but he occasionally seems to get it, like that time he called out Fox News and admitted to indulging in “false equivalencies” himself.
Frankensteinbeck
@debbie:
It’s been tested, studied extensively. Over and over again, research shows that Trump supporters are motivated by racism and little if anything else. Even their economic anxieties are linked directly to racism rather than their actual situation.
However, if you need more, I propose an experiment: The economy is about to take a big hit. We’ll see how much support he loses.
Ladyraxterinok
@Kay: What will be the effect of the 2018 bill for ‘tax due’ be on many voters? I have read that the elimination of the personal exemption will result in a major shock to many.
Miss Bianca
@debbie: Are you trying to say that people who latched onto Trump’s racism to get their tax cuts, may not be racists themselves? I don’t buy it. Anyone who is willing to use a racist tool to get what s/he wants is a racist themself, period. The ends do not justify the means – the ends never justify the means, because the ends *are* the means. The master’s tools will always be used to prop up the master’s house, and in this country, the foundation of the master’s house is racism. Full stop.
With a healthy dose of misogyny to boot, as I believe you among others have noted.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah:
I wish Bernie would go away. Far away. I never want to hear his name again.
debbie
@Frankensteinbeck:
I think he already has. I am looking forward later to the reactions to his threat to bring on a recession if the Dems don’t give him what he wants.
Ferdinand
@schrodingers_cat: acting CoS, acting AG, acting SecDef, no UN ambassador, and on and on and on. Criminal negligence and dereliction of duty.
Gelfling 545
@Kay: Doesn’t matter to me if Sessions said it first. Kelly went along with it so he’s painted with the same brush.
Brachiator
@Immanentize:
Great point, and I had not thought about how Clinton/Gore was a departure from past practice.
But here’s a question. Are voters interested in something different? Sanders and yeah, even Trump, whipped up enthusiasm by offering themselves as candidates who would shake up the system (and Trump of course was a liar and fraud). But I don’t think that desire has gone away.
What is the average age of the newly elected Democratic Party House members? We know that they are a more diverse and more representative of the country than their GOP counterparts.
And despite the crap hurled at her by Bernie Sanders’ acolytes, Hillary Clinton was not a staid representative of Establishment values.
So, yeah, a VP candidate should be wise and seasoned, but maybe not necessarily old, white or male.
Ladyraxterinok
@WaterGirl: I was really surprised at the anti-woman and anti-black attitudes I saw at supposedly progressive blogs during the 08 primary.
JPL
@debbie:Trump didn’t even attempt to hide his misogyny, and yet women still voted for him.
The Washington Post has an article about a man with stage 4 colon cancer who changed his views about the ACA after his diagnosis. It’s unfortunate that some develop views after personal experiences, but it happens. Anyway he thanked trump, because trump energized those to vote for democrats. He compared it to those who attend church because of their belief in the devil. trump won’t change, and we will vote in 2020 and convince others to vote because of him.
debbie
@Miss Bianca:
I don’t agree with that. I think it’s more of a twisted sense of priorities. Some people put their tax cut over racial justice. They put themselves above their community. They’re the Good Germans of the moment.
Cheryl Rofer
@germy: It’s really hard to say. If you’re bashing Bernie, that’s time that might be used to get a positive message out, and we need a positive message this year. Beto’s video on the wall was good this way. It was bashing the wall, yes, but it also showed how gorgeous the border country is and why it should stay that way. Much better than “We don’t want no stinking wall!” The time to bring out the negative research on Bernie is a year or two from now. It makes sense for him to bash the newcomers before they get started, but he’s been around forever, so the best thing to do is to remind people of the negatives, and find new ones if possible, closer to the time they’re going to vote.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
For real.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
Woman who cuts my hair (before the 2016 election): “Give me one good reason why I should vote for Hillary Clinton.”
Me: “How much time have you got? I can give you twelve –”
Her (interrupting): “She had Black Lives Matter at her convention! Why didn’t she have any police at her convention?”
Me: “She had tons of police at her convention –”
Her: “But they weren’t on stage alongside the BLM mothers!”
Me: “Well, that would have been kind of weird . . . .”
She has not said word one about Trump or politics since the election.
debbie
@NotMax:
They are pretty remarkable artists. Thanks for sharing!
Ladyraxterinok
@Betty Cracker: The black reaction and actions after Michael Brown’s killing really sent some whites way over the edge. How dare THEY complain …so visibly and in such numbers? And get so much attn. AND some white people supported them!! It was a ‘total breakdown and a massive attack on decent (ie white civilization).’
Baud
@zhena gogolia: She didn’t want you to give her reasons. She wanted you to validate her hatred.
J R in WV
@Fair Economist:
I would hope that no one who could win the nomination at the Dem National Convention would be dumb enough to allow Sanders the VP nomination. It would be like clasping the asp to your breast!
Sanders cannot help being a sly and evil conniving Russian puppet. It is who he has been for 50 years, he will never even care to change that one tiny bit. Also won’t release his tax returns, so not truly eligible to run in Democratic primaries.
Humdog
@debbie: But anyone who sees small personal gain as more important than the lives of people suffering racial violence, must definitionally be a racist. Racist does not simply mean foaming at the mouth with racial curses or running around lynching people. It is evident that those who take tax cuts or judges as a fair trade for racial violence are condoning racism, do not have a big problem with it, making them racist.
Miss Bianca
@debbie: And the ‘Good Germans’ were *just fine* with first the expulsion, and then the extermination, of Jews and other ‘undesirables’, so are you going to argue that just because they may have supported Hitler out of ‘economic anxiety’, they weren’t anti-Semitic?
Sorry, not buying it.
Brachiator
@Ladyraxterinok:
Just not easy to say. Everyone will be paying attention to this tax filing season, if it ever gets started, to see what revenues and refunds look like.
OTOH, it’s clear that every aspect of the tax code, Individual, Corporation, Estate and Trust, was tweaked to benefit the wealthiest folks.
Miss Bianca
@zhena gogolia: So, have you ever asked her in the aftermath, ‘give me one good reason why you voted for Donald Trump’?
Or would you prefer not to have that conversation with someone holding scissors in her hand?//
Ladyraxterinok
@Yarrow: In 90 and 91 I heard in Germany that the former East German people who had not been able to get West German tv were extremely susceptible to TV ads. They had no history of learning to see through the claims. The constant East German govt political propaganda with penalties for questioning doubtless conditioned them to unquestioning acceptance of ad claims.
Frankensteinbeck
@Ladyraxterinok:
We have to look at this in isolation to realize just how wildly racist Republicans are. The idea that black lives matter infuriates them, and that anger is burning and widespread throughout the Republican Party. They don’t even have the fig leaf Leftists do of ‘But I want to talk about what matters to ME!’ If you suggest that whites should not be able to kill blacks on a whim, Republicans lose their fucking shit.
schrodingers_cat
@Ladyraxterinok: Exact reaction of my supposedly emancipated, I am not a racist, because I teach Yoga and love Indian food, ex-friend.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@J R in WV: his obnoxious personality aside, Sanders is clearly one of those, like Matt Stoller* and Elizabeth Breunig (and I think the twitter doxxer who is her husband?), thinks that the real enemy of inevitable and necessary American socialism is Barack Obama and the Democratic Party. He will never accept any allies to the right, and always make war on those on the Left he deems insufficiently pure. And he’s become addicted to the attention and flattery
* apparently David Sirota has joined their ranks, but from what I remember of Sirota–mostly from the Bush years and his stints as a guest on Al Franken’s radio show– that’s a significant shift to the left for him. More recently he seems to have been on a quest for the Great White Center Left Alternative to Obama, that asshole Schweitzer and Martin O’Malley, who couldn’t even win the D-Kos primary
Miss Bianca
@Baud: Yep, precisely.
zhena gogolia
@Miss Bianca:
I have a feeling she just didn’t vote. But no, I haven’t had the heart to say anything.
Schlemazel
@Miss Bianca:
As a white guy I can ignore racism if I want. I can believe it has no impact on my life and even convince myself it does not exist. A lot of Dump’s supporters are jut that ignorant, insensitive and backwards. The majority though I bet believe he is their chance to get even with them coloreds who have just had it too damned easy for too long
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Humdog: as Jamelle Bouie (I believe) puts it, many white people who say they’re not racist think of racism as bad manners, not a serious problem. These are the people who say, “Well, I wish he would stop tweeting, but…”. They never use That Word, but they can’t understand what Those People are complaining about. “It was all such a long time ago…” “Well, that boy in Cleveland, why was his mother letting him play with a toy gun? especially in that neighborhood…” And I’d bet that most of them have looked around before saying, “I don’t have a racist bone in my body, but….”
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I always remembered Sirota that way, although I haven’t followed his body of work closely.
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Isn’t Sirota the one who wrote that “Don’t trust Beto, because he’s a closet Republican!11!” piece for the Guardian?
delk
Hillary should start leaking all the dirt she has on Sanders. His supporters are going to blame her anyway.
debbie
@Miss Bianca:
Good Germans being Good Germans wasn’t about economic anxiety; it was the fear of suffering the same treatment as the scapegoats. It’s fucked-up priorities. Same as now.
dnfree
Here’s a fact check question that I haven’t found the answer to. A friend of a friend posted on Facebook a picture of a soldier shaking hands with President Trump at his Iraq visit. The post says something like “Notice the difference? The soldier is armed. Previous presidents insisted soldiers not be armed when the president visits. Trump says it’s a war zone and they should be able to keep their arms.” This is followed by numerous enthusiastic comments about how wonderful Trump is, naturally. So what I want to know is, is it true in the first place that the troops are not armed when other presidents visited war zones? And is it true that Trump insisted the troops be able to keep their arms for his visit? And WERE all the troops armed during his visit?
joel hanes
chose a different path
I’m passing the New Year at my Mom’s, in Iowa.
I showed her this most recent story about the Tibbetts family, and she said “That’s the Iowa I know.”
Iowa has four Representatives; in the next House, one of them will be Steve [spit] King, and three of them will be Democratic women.
Grassley won’t live forever, and I’m sensing that Joni Ernst is defeatable.
Raven
An hour north of Mobile and bookin!
Cheryl Rofer
@dnfree: The commentary I saw on Twitter (admittedly liberal, that’s who I follow) was that having the soldiers suited up for combat while they were in the mess hall was bizarre and a breach of regulations. But Trump is right, as he so often is on similar points: It hadn’t been done that way before!
debbie
@Raven:
I guess the weather hasn’t been an issue?
Yarrow
@Raven: Drive safe!
O. Felix Culpa
@debbie:
Sorry, no. I have family who were in that category. Yes, there was fear of retaliation, but they also tacitly supported Nazi policies before retaliation became an issue…because they agreed with those policies or at minimum thought they would benefit from them.
joel hanes
@Frankensteinbeck:
He’s a deliberate ratfucker
He’s an egotist, like Trump. It’s all about him.
Raven
@debbie: It rained until Montgomery, the boss lady has the wheel now and it’s dry and fast
O. Felix Culpa
@O. Felix Culpa: Continuing the “Good German” discussion, there was a helluva a lot of justified Economic Anxiety back then: punitive Versailles Treaty effects, hyper-inflation, the Great Depression. The latter helped tip the balance to Hitler’s re-emergence as a force in Munich (after his all-too-brief imprisonment for his failed Putsch attempt) and later the whole country.
debbie
@O. Felix Culpa:
Did your relatives think things would go as far as they did? When it was all over, did they still agree with those policies even at the expense of so much death and destruction?
Your relatives didn’t have the benefit of your hindsight. I don’t think most people fully weigh consequences or think that far into the future. Their “tacit” (which implies your assumption of what they were thinking) support isn’t proof that they fully knew what was coming.
Miss Bianca
@Raven:
Now that right there sounds like a song lyric begging to be written! : )
O. Felix Culpa
@debbie: Anti-Semitism was an open and central part of the National Socialist platform from the beginning. People probably didn’t envision concentration camps and gas chambers, but the hatred of the “other” was an integral part of the general and economic ideology. Inseparable, as I believe racism is with Trump supporters.
ETA: I spent the better part of a day at the National Socialist Documentation Center (Museum) in Munich this month: https://www.ns-dokuzentrum-muenchen.de/en/permanent-exhibition/concept/. It was eye-opening, even though I though I was fairly well-informed about this history. There was no way people missed the anti-Semitism. It was a central part of the platform, the “reason” for the people’s economic and political woes. And the photos show a shocking number of Good Germans in rapt attention.
Raven
@Miss Bianca: If dreams were lightning thunder was desire
This old house would have burnt down a long time ago
Miss Bianca
@debbie: “We never thought that someone who expressed foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of The Other was going to take it as far as he did!” is…not a particularly compelling argument in favor of Good Germans’ essential goodness, in my humble opinion. Just as I don’t think that “We never thought that Trump was serious about Wall/Birtherism/Nuclear Holocaust/Trade Wars – we just thought he was saying that stuff to get elected!” is a strong argument in favor of essential good-heartedness in the Heart of the Heartland. YMMV.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I had never heard of Sally Buzzbee an hour ago, but I’m thinking she’s gonna shut down her twitter account today
I checked the dates a while ago, and IIRC when Monica Lewinsky started work in the White House, Ken Starr had been investigating an already investigated land deal for two years. Also, I think AP is where Ron Fournier spent eight years whining about Obama’s lack of leaderly leadership
rikyrah
@Frankensteinbeck:
You are absolutely right.
The overwhelming majority of White people did NOT vote for 44 in 2012.
And, 44 beat Willard like he stole something….cause NON-WHITES in this country said,….phuck you, THIS is OUR President.
And, I will repeat it…..
Even though we had Bernie, and Stein, and the Russians….
The number of people who had the franchise STRIPPED FROM THEM BECAUSE OF VOTER SUPPRESSION…
THAT NUMBER?
Was 2-3 times the margin of Dolt45’s ‘victory’ in those key states.
O. Felix Culpa
@Miss Bianca: Yes, and Trump’s racism was so open that the GOP and their voters lost any plausible deniability on that score. (Assuming they had any to begin with.)
Edited.
Quinerly
Has Cole checked in since he said he was going on a bike ride yesterday? I know some of you follow him on Twitter. I don’t tweet.
Quinerly
@Raven: ??
trollhattan
@Quinerly:
For moar Cole, his Twitter feed is in the upper RH corner of this page.
rikyrah
@Frankensteinbeck:
The American farmer has just lost the Chinese soybean market…but, they still support Dolt45.
O. Felix Culpa
@debbie:
My “assumption” of what they were thinking is based on the words they spoke to me. No need for me to guess. They told me directly.
tobie
@J R in WV: @Yarrow: Do you know of any good articles on how BLM was weaponized by Russian (and other) bots in the last year of Obama’s Presidency? I find it strange that there are few headlines about police violence against minorities, although the violence continues unabated, and no protests. I’d like to know more about what’s behind that. The same, by the way, holds true for terrorists attacks associated with Islam–think the Pulse Night Club shooting, the San Bernadino shooting, and the Boston Marathon bombing–that dominated much of the news from 2013-2016 and then all but fizzled out after Trump’s election.
Burnspbesq
@rikyrah:
Consider, then reject.
rikyrah
@Quinerly:
I will repeat:
John Kelly ain’t shyt.
dnfree
@Cheryl Rofer: Thank you, I appreciate the response! This shows one of the failures of Googling (or at least my Googling), because searching for “presidential visit war zone troops armed fact check” and variations thereof just keeps getting me the same articles on the politicization of the visit, signing hats, etc. I thought it was probably an exceptional situation but I wonder how it came about.
rikyrah
@Kay:
He will also not be forgotten for his attack on Congresswoman Frederica Wilson.
Nope.
rikyrah
@tobie:
We really haven’t had a Muslim shooter since Dolt45 was elected.
Damn near all our mass shooters have been WHITE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.
Both the Nazi and Non-Nazi kind.
They have spent their time trying to explain away why these WHITE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS..
shouldn’t be called DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.
Also, part of their ‘concern’ about BLM and all these different kinds of shootings, was so that they could leave them at the doorstep of 44’s White House.
Without 44, they can’t be bothered to purse their lips about why 45 doesn’t comment on these shootings.
rikyrah
@O. Felix Culpa:
Oh, they had it…because of how the media has twisted itself into pretzels to not call racism for what it is…
It’s been like an art, since November 2016….
as the OBVIOUSNESS of the racial policies and support for them has become GLARING…
the dance around it from the MSM has been to.
No, there was no difference between the GOP and Dolt45…EXCEPT for they spoke in dogwhistles that the media could PRETEND didn’t mean what they meant.
Dolt45 didn’t do that…
And. The MSM is pissed, because they want the excuse to ignore it.
O. Felix Culpa
@rikyrah: No lies spoken.
MisterForkbeard
@Ladyraxterinok: I have some otherwise sensible relatives who are in either in law enforcement or married into it, and who went while while hog on Trump. Said that they weren’t racist and anyone who thought BLM was a real thing hated cops.
The fact that they’re all in semi affluent country parts of California without significant poor black populations or significant didn’t mean anything to them. They’re good people and generalized their very limited experience to the whole country.
Also, they were a little racist. They’ve toned down the Trump love considerably since, though some of them would probably vote for him again.
O. Felix Culpa
@MisterForkbeard: Serious question: what does being “a little racist” mean? To me, it’s like being “a little pregnant.” Either you are or you aren’t. YMMV.
tobie
@rikyrah: You’re right that mass shootings and bomb threats by white domestic terrorists have been off the charts since 2017. The fat man in the White House bears prime responsibility for this and yet the media will bend over backwards to make sure that no one identifies Parkland shooter Nicholas Cruz with the MAGAt movement. I still find it curious that the spate of ISIS-inspired terror incidents (Pulse Night Club, San Bernadino, etc.) miraculously stopped after the 2016 election. Each of those shooters was an easy target for radicalization online, and while the online activity could have started in the Middle East, it’s possible it was taken up by Russian intelligence. Public support for Francois Holland cratered in France after a series of attacks and helped Marine Le Pen, which is, again, something Russia would have wanted.
Jackie
@Ferdinand: Trump is going to stick with Acting positions – he can choose who he wants and avoid senate confirmation hearings.
geg6
@rikyrah:
Tell it.
Quinerly
@trollhattan: I don’t seem to get it on my phone. Too lazy to fish out the tablet. I’m mesh mounting pennies for this bathroom’s penny floor right now. On a roll! As long as he is not injured, Lily is well, and his pants are where they should be, all is good.
germy
Quinerly
Anyone posted this? https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/30/us/california-fires-pge-charges/
Quinerly
Never was a McChrystal fan but I applaud him. On ABC this AM, Retired four-star Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal fired a warning shot to anyone considering a job in the Trump White House, calling the president “dishonest” and “immoral.”
artem1s
@WaterGirl:
Those of us who were vilified as PUMA bitch splitters for wanting the delegate vote to occur in the dem convention in 2008 have always understood Obama-Trump voters. Mainstream Dems enabled the Hillary hate too. O-T voters turned out in droves in states where you could swing your primary vote from R to D. At least 4 of my family members voted for Obama. Not because they actually wanted him, but because they hated Hillary and had lost faith in McCain. They were pre-disposed to hate McCain because of the lies that W’s campaign spread against him in 2000. Some of them were ex-military and they hated McCain more than they hated W. Think about that one. They hated Hillary and probably McCain too. But even if they didn’t hate McCain, they convinced themselves that McCain could beat the relatively unknown black man. Either scenario was fine as long as that bitch didn’t win.
patrick II
@Betty Cracker:
Written by Marcus H. Johnson “Freelance Writer. Political Scientist. Three point specialist. Tattoo enthusiast. Food aficionado.” at Medium.com
Why Bernie Lost (And Why His Supporters Need To Face Reality)
debbie
@O. Felix Culpa:
I hope you aren’t implying that I hold any truck with anyone being “a little racist.” What I have been trying to point out is that people may have other motivations driving them.
tobie
One bit of good news to end 2018: The House Native American Caucus will now be co-chaired by two Native American women–Sharice Davids and Deb Haaland. Previously it was co-chaired by Betty McCollum (not Native American) and Tom Coles (part Native American but not a woman). Davids and Haaland bring the number of Native Americans serving in Congress up to four. Evidently Tom Coles (R-OK) and Markwayne Mullin (R-OK) are Cherokee, though you certainly would not be able to tell that from their pro-fossil-fuel and anti-environment records.
O. Felix Culpa
@debbie: I was replying in that comment to MisterForkbeard, not you. You are clearly a good person and I value your efforts at nuanced thinking (which is all too rare). I also think that folks of the white persuasion (myself among them) tend to be remarkably defensive about the topic of racism. We don’t want to admit it is as deep and pervasive and as powerful a motivator as it really is in our society. I denied it for a long time, but AA friends and colleagues, plus some reading, plus the blatantly racist events of recent years changed my thinking.
MisterForkbeard
@O. Felix Culpa: You are, but there’s degrees. like being 2 months pregnant vs 9 months, or having a broken wrist vs a broken shoulder for a “broken limb”. In both cases, you’re pregnant or have a broken limb, but it affects your life to lesser degrees.
I’m this case, my relatives were acting on racist impulses but I’ve never heard of them pushing racism on a conscious level. One of them was dating a Mexican guy a year or so ago. But clearly racism in a politician does something for them, to the extent they won’t admit anything Trump does might be racist at all.
Another Scott
@patrick II: Good piece; thanks for the pointer.
But Bernie is yesterday. I plan on ignoring him, and hope others do as well. (Though I know that my J is still stuck in the Berniebro mindset. (sigh))
Cheers,
Scott.
O. Felix Culpa
@MisterForkbeard: Clearly you’ve never been pregnant. :)
sukabi
OT, but in the “Be Better” vein…there is one thing we can thank drumpf for…handing the congress a $129,000,000 check to staff up…
joel hanes
@O. Felix Culpa:
I love and live with black people, and my political leanings could accurately be described as SJW.
I am aware that I retain some racist assumptions and stereotypes.
I hope that my struggle not to let them affect my behavior is mostly successful.
Same deal with sexism; I retain some misogyny.
Quinerly
@tobie: ?
O. Felix Culpa
@joel hanes:
QFT. I am appalled at some of my reactive thoughts that arise unbidden at times. Don’t even know where they come from, except that we white Americans have been swimming like fish in a racist sea since our country began.
Kelly
@Quinerly: My brother, a long time IBEW member, has run heavy equipment on powerline projects throughout the Rocky mountain and Pacific states since the 1990’s considers the accusations of Pacific Gas and Electric negligence completely credible.
MisterForkbeard
@O. Felix Culpa: My wife was ambulatory at 2 months. Not ambulatory at 9. Different challenges, but 9 was definitely more impacting than 2. :)
O. Felix Culpa
@MisterForkbeard:
I might be a voice crying in a dead thread at this point, but I respectfully disagree. Supporting racists and racist policies means you are a racist. I would argue that being a “polite” or “unconscious” racist might be even worse than being a cross-burner. At least the latter are honest about what they think.
ETA: I understand the desire to excuse and defend people we care about and who, in other respects, seem like good people. But until white America acknowledges its conscious and unconscious racism, we will not change. It’s painful but necessary.
MisterForkbeard
@O. Felix Culpa: You’re misunderstanding me. As you agreed with when Joel Hanes says it, everyone had racist tendencies or assumptions to some degree. Some people dont even realize it. That’s what I’m saying about those relatives – they dont realize what they’re doing, but they’re clearly activated by Trump’s racism.
I described that as “a little” racist. Perhaps the more accurate description would be “unconsciously” racist, or “plausibly deniably” racist.
O. Felix Culpa
@MisterForkbeard: Got it. Thank you for the clarification.
MisterForkbeard
@O. Felix Culpa: Aside from which, there are absolutely degrees of racism. Someone who hangs a black boy because he kissed a white girl has gone considerably further than someone who thinks Black folks are getting more welfare than they should.
Both racist. Different degrees of racism. Different effects. All bad, but one less awful than the other.
MagdaInBlack
@Raven:
John Hiatt : Drive South ?
WaterGirl
@geg6:
Could not agree more! Especially your last sentence.
If they are too stupid to know that it’s too late, they definitely aren’t smart enough to hold high level positions.
O. Felix Culpa
@MisterForkbeard: Because FYWP won’t let me edit my own comment, I’ll add that I think your revised description is indeed more accurate.
O. Felix Culpa
@MisterForkbeard:
Oh well, we’re in disagreeing territory again. But so it goes… I’m off to get much-delayed errands done. Cheers!
MisterForkbeard
@O. Felix Culpa: Right there with you. So many errands to do. Have a good time :)
James E Powell
@rikyrah:
I haven’t seen any signs that the press/media have any intention to change their ways in this regard.
debbie
@O. Felix Culpa:
Thanks. I believe that racism is horribly pervasive. Two of my brothers voted for Trump. Neither liked Obama in the least, one because he genuinely believes in small government and low taxes, the other because he is bitter and vengeful and because he has a deep-held belief that someone somewhere is trying to screw him out of something. That is what drew him to Trump. Not economic anxiety, but a sense of grievance against anyone who might have gotten anything. He might as well be racist, based on his wished outcome and sense of ill-will for things like affirmative action.
The first brother I know is not a racist. Friends have told me he is bewildered by my reaction following the election. We have long been at odds politically, but I never stopped speaking or dealing with him until Trump. I am also told he is regretting his choice of Trump, but as I spit back, “Too late. He will never get the stink of Trump off him.” Funny to see geg6 using “stink” above in her post. I thought I was the only melodramatic one! ;)
Miss Bianca
@O. Felix Culpa: QFT
I know that I was brought up – “carefully taught”, as Rodgers and Hammerstein put it- to be racist. I can remember specific things my parents said and did as clearly as day, starting from when I was tiny, that reinforced the fact that I was supposed to be racist. And I resisted it even when I was tiny, but I know that it affected me, and continues to affect me, to this day. And it infuriates me – when I consider all the effort that this society has poured into trying to make me hate and fear people of color, it infuriates me.
And it’s like Molly Ivins said – once you realize that you’ve been sold a bill of goods about race, you have to start asking yourself what else the racist MOTUs are lying to you about. And when I realized the answer was “All of it, Katie”…I realized that what I principally felt was that I had been RIPPED OFF. Told to spend all this time and energy acquirung all the shoddy mental furnishings of racist tropes, cluttering up my brain. I’ve been trying to get rid of it fir years, but there is still stuff lurking there.
Bill Arnold
Good human-story style piece in the Intercept on climate refugees, including a refugee from drought-induced crop failures in Honduras. (Plus two interal US stories)
Climate Change Refugees Share Stories of Escaping Wildfires, Floods, and Droughts (Alleen Brown, December 29 2018)
The point being, that climate refuges are already among the refugees at the Southern US border. And we in the US bear a substantial portion of the responsibility/total excess GHGs in the atmosphere.
geg6
@Miss Bianca:
Imagine my surprise when I realized my own prejudices. My family was considered extremely liberal in my community. My parents supported MLK and the whole civil rights movement. They had black friends who came to our home. I thought we were above the racists (out or hiding it) we lived among.
I have since found out we were still operating under racist assumptions regardless of good intentions.
Ruckus
@Frankensteinbeck:
I have no proof that sanders has been bought, but I believe it to be true. Everything he does and says puts him way out of possibly getting the nomination because he disses so much of the democratic party. He did that last time by running as a democrat and the moment the primary was over he did nothing but go negative on the person who beat him and the minute the election was over he went back officially being the non democrat he always was. Anyone who suggests that it’s OK for him to run as a democrat should be horsewhipped. First we have a lot of far better candidates as of this moment than him, second he’s 78 freaking yrs old, third he’s no democrat, and fourth as I said I think he ran as a foil in the first place and is attempting to do the same again. He’s a fraud is what he is.
Chris Johnson
@Betty Cracker: It’s probably Russian propaganda. Anyone who is paying attention knows that Russia tries to push contradictory sides, and they are absolutely behind the BernieBros (largely a Twitter phenomenon from what I’ve seen, but also a Reddit presence).
Some folks around here are awfully eager to believe trollskis when they are talking out of one side of their mouths, but not the other. It’s the same trollskis though, and the same ultimate agenda: cause chaos, as much as possible.
Gex
@Ruckus: I really wish he had had to answer all the FEC’s questions about the fundraising concerns they had.
Seeing as he’s coming into 2020 showing he has no interest in working not to piss off the Dem voters whose votes he couldn’t win last time, despite the fact that it cost him the nomination, it sure seems like he wants to place second.
Villago Delenda Est
@Steeplejack:
Then Wilmer should fuck off and die.
Chris Johnson
@germy:
RUSSIA is attacking Beto and doesn’t want him to win the primaries. It’s starkly obvious.
Since he is in fact an Obama-grade centrist that is the angle of attack they use, just like they use Bernie being culturally clueless to attack HIM. They will manufacture bros to attack Beto with, supposedly from Bernie, and they will manufacture neoliberal shills to attack Bernie with supposedly from Beto, or better yet from Hillary to really stoke up the resentments.
It’s WHAT THEY DO. You have to understand they’re actively doing this from every direction, to every direction, everywhere (but especially the main behavior modification channels aka ‘social media’. This is well documented by now and has been going on for decades and started literally in Russia over internal politics. It’s extremely effective, so don’t be a damn hothead. Americans don’t need help stoking their resentments, we are already so good at it…
Gex
@Chris Johnson: Well no, it isn’t just Russian propaganda, it was published in an interview with National Journal.
Locked behind a paywall, I got there from here.
Chalk that up for a win for Russia too, I guess. POC can complain about Bernie but who will believe us that he even said the things we don’t like?
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
I was lucky in that my parents were liberals that mostly believed what I do today. But they also didn’t make any attempt to “train” us in conventional white wisdom. And when I went to work for my dad weekends and summers when I was 13, one of the people I met was Richard, a very nice black man who worked for my dad. Richard is one of my life heroes. I have 4 of those, one of them is white. Richard took me under his wing and taught me to be decent, and I don’t think my parents really knew how to do that, even though they tried. Almost 6 decades later, I’m still in awe of what Richard did and how he did it. Everyone should have a Richard in their lives. As the old saying goes, he taught me to look, even though my eyes could see, he taught me to listen, even though my ears could hear, he taught me respect for others, even though I had no hate, he taught me friendship, even though I had no enemies.
Chris Johnson
@J R in WV:
I really REALLY like this as a tactic. I think it’ll be absolutely effective against Bernie because he can’t admit he is in fact another millionaire (I’m convinced that’s his big secret, though sketchy finances are also possible as he is a politician)
It will also underscore how so many people we rely upon to run for office are millionaires and multimillionaires. That’s a big deal, and a class issue, and class issues have been winning elections. Trump won 2016 by lying his ass off about how he was going to put people back into good-paying jobs and bring the olden days back. Our side wasn’t nearly as interested in brazenly lying about everything. We were like ‘go move to somewhere like California where there is work’ which is actually a damn dangerous policy position, especially in a country that has an Electoral College.
We’re going to have to do better than that, without wavering on cultural issues.
Johnnybuck
@Villago Delenda Est: works for me!
Ruckus
@Gex:
If you were a millionaire at 80 and actually won the presidency and had to even make the appearance of working so as not to look like individual one, would you actually want the job? No, you wouldn’t. He’s had the last half of his life to run for president, to be something more than a senator from a mostly white state, with a population of less than 650,000 people and the best he’s done is to be himself? He’s a caucus of one, without the concept of others, unless he gets something for it. He’d be a guy that @Miss Bianca: could have been talking about. A pretense of liberal in everything but money and there he’s a flaming liberal because being one benefits him.
Citizen Alan
@Baud:
This. Whoever had gotten the 2016 democratic nomination would have been treated like the Anti-Christ. If Bernie fucking Sanders had been the nominee, we would have lost every state because the republicans and the media would have portrayed him as Chairman Mao.
Gex
@Gex: And goddamn does this piss me off. Dismiss a black woman without even bothering to do a two second google. Argue that it is SHE who believes what she wants to believe, and not the person who just wrote her off so dismissively.
Citizen Alan
@Betty Cracker:
The most depressing thing about 2016 to me is that I now firmly believe Obama would have lost to either McCain or Romney had either of them been as aggressively racist as trump was.
Yarrow
@tobie:
This article in Mother Jones has a good summary and link to a University of Washington study.
This Slate article is a bit later after House Democrats released ads and has more info.
There’s more out there if you dig.
@Chris Johnson: Very good points. If you start to get really heated at something online step back and look to see if you’re being manipulated by outside actors who want you to spend your energy that way and further divide the country.