Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I would try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

People identifying as christian while ignoring christ and his teachings is a strange thing indeed.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it is a trap.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

The “burn-it-down” people are good with that until they become part of the kindling.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

“A king is only a king if we bow down.” – Rev. William Barber

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

I desperately hope that, yet again, i am wrong.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Our messy unity will be our strength.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

I’m starting to think Jesus may have made a mistake saving people with no questions asked.

America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.

Everybody saw this coming.

Rupert, come get your orange boy, you petrified old dinosaur turd.

You are here: Home / Civil Rights / Women's Rights / A Woman's Place Is In The House / Monday Morning Open Thread: Yes, Madam Speaker

Monday Morning Open Thread: Yes, Madam Speaker

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Gonna be a long week (cuz they’re *all* long weeks, now) so let’s eeeease into it. From the Washington Post, “‘Pelosi does not mess around’”:

Nancy Pelosi’s first showdown with President Trump began with him publicly questioning her political viability. It ended with the House speaker winning an unmitigated victory and reviving her reputation as a legislative savant.

Trump’s capitulation — agreeing to reopen the federal government after a 35-day standoff without funding for a U.S.-Mexico border wall — generated rave reviews for Pelosi from fellow Democrats and grudging respect from Republicans who watched as she kept an unruly party caucus united in the face of GOP divide-and-conquer tactics.

Pelosi (D-Calif.) emerges from the shutdown as a stronger leader of her party — and more popular with the public, by early measures — as Democrats eye aggressive efforts to counter Trump’s agenda through ambitious legislation and tough oversight. That suggests the shutdown might have been a strategic misstep for Trump, in addition to a tactical error…

When the two met in the Oval Office on Dec. 11 Trump suggested she was constrained by the fact she had not yet been formally elected speaker: “Nancy’s in a situation where it’s not easy for her to talk right now.”

Pelosi shot back: “Mr. President, please don’t characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting.”

In retrospect, the remark was more a warning than a retort…

… [T]here appears to be little appetite on Capitol Hill for a reprise of the draining shutdown. Trump’s Plan B — declaring a national emergency and tapping military construction accounts to fund the wall — has unnerved many Republicans and spurred Democrats to prepare for litigation that might not be settled before Trump’s term is up.

“I think he’s finally met his match,” said Assistant Speaker Ben Ray Luján (D-N.M.). “The speaker always presents herself in public and in private with the utmost respect. But she’s firm, and she’s strong, and she understands how to wield that power.”…

(Mike Luckovich via GoComics.com)
.

… To be powerful and to also need nothing is to be in the catbird seat, and Pelosi, in this moment, had both: her House majority is on offense, and the shutdown was—and now forevermore will be—Trump’s humiliation. If we can give credit to the president in this moment of failure, perhaps it is in the fact that he likely recognized, before even the first federal worker was furloughed, that Pelosi had already won.

Reader Interactions

177Comments

  2. 2.

    Betty Cracker

    The Speaker carried a small white paper bag, I know not what was in it.

    An extra-small set of orange balls?

    I’m with Schooley — kinda surprised Pelosi’s tweets on the Trump-Russia scandal didn’t get more attention too. Cheryl covered it at this here blog, but the major dailies were still focused on the end of the shutdown.

  3. 3.

    plato

    an unruly party caucus

    Sigh… Where were the media minions in the teanuts infested era? #msmassholes

  4. 4.

    sukabi

    @rikyrah: good morning ?

    @Betty Cracker: A very tiny pair. Also, the not mentioning / minimal coverage is how they help “shape the narrative”. If it’s bad for democrats it’s amplified out of proportion, and if it’s good for democrats it’s glossed over and buried.

  5. 5.

    Central Planning

    Good (late) morning from Barcelona. I am exploring the Gothic quarter with DoCP leading the way. I think she’s ready to explore by herself tomorrow while I go to work.

    I’ll submit pics once I’m back. Adios!

  7. 7.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    Kamala-mania is running wild in da streets, brother !!! (Photo):

    Whatchya gonna do when Kamala-mania runs wild on you?

  15. 15.

    JPL

    @plato: I googled Barack Obama’s Presidential Announcement in Springfield, Illinois. and wasn’t able to find great pictures, but there’s a youtube. The crowd size is impressive.

  16. 16.

    Sab

    @plato: He was in Illinois in the middle of winter, with subzero temps. She is in Oakland. Conditions aren’t comparable. Her crowd is impressive, however.

  19. 19.

    Plato

    @Sab:

    I agree the climates were different. I was just responding to ozark’s post. Both of them got impressive crowds for their campaign debut. Unlike the totus thug.

  24. 24.

    Plato

    Not that it’s a gimme, but this is an encouraging poll.

    According to Public Policy Polling, Trump is Royally screwed no matter who runs against him:
    Biden 53%, Trump 41%
    Sanders 51%, Trump 41%
    Harris 48%, Trump 41%
    O’Rourke 47%, Trump 41%
    Warren 48%, Trump 42%
    Booker 47%, Trump 42%
    Gillibrand 47%, Trump 42%

    — Brian Krassenstein (@krassenstein) January 28, 2019

    Booker is running?

  27. 27.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @plato: I’m looking at pics and video (briefly) There is no way to make a direct comparison (news orgs weren’t using drones in ’08). From what I can see he drew a fair crowd, maybe as large as her’s, maybe not. But when the word “Obamaesque” is used in relation to crowd sizes, what I picture is what I linked to or what he got in Berlin, not the crowd that received his announcement in Springfield IL.

  31. 31.

    Immanentize

    Good morning All.
    Another week in paradise.
    It’s upsetting to see Biden and/or Sanders in any poll, but old white guys must have their respect (and their curve, eh Rikyrah?)

  32. 32.

    Immanentize

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    I’m hoping that’s not true. I think that it would be a lot of Republicans who would vote for Bloomberg or Schultz rather than Trump again. Like Perot.

  36. 36.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Immanentize: A lot of people who voted for trump in ’16 might be persuaded to vote against him in 2020 if they have an alternative who is not a DEM, just as a fair number voted against evil crooked Hillary by voting for Stein. But spoilers are a roll of the dice I’d just as soon avoid.

  37. 37.

    Immanentize

    @Baud:
    Well in Adam’s post, the Sabatos of the world say that independents take from the Challenger, but that didn’t entirely happen with Clinton. Or would Bill have walked away with it otherwise? I can’t tell how many people are just saying stuff to keep Schultz out.

  39. 39.

    JWR

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Wow. Now that’s a crowd! Earlier, I saw a few images that showed a significantly smaller crowd. Maybe they were taken before it began or after it was over, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if those pics were chosen precisely because the crowds looked smaller. And the story on my local TV news focused very narrowly on the podium. Methinks they’re skeered!

  40. 40.

    Baud

    @Immanentize: I remember “Perot hurt Bush” as GOP propaganda to explain the loss. IIRC the polls said he got about an equal measure from otherwise Bush and Clinton voters.

  41. 41.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: ugh, it was so damn close last time. I don’t really see any way to stop these vanity candidates. So Schultz will position himself as the white guy Democratic alternative? I do think if there are two independents or more, that Bernie will be crushed.

  44. 44.

    Bobby Thomson

    The Speaker carried a small white paper bag, I know not what was in it.

    Is Elizabeth Drew really so out of touch she’s never heard of a doggie bag?

  45. 45.

    Immanentize

    @Baud:
    Ballot access is the big issue. Greens have a ballot everywhere (almost everywhere?) But an independent like Schlitz is going to have to fight for access without a party everywhere.

  46. 46.

    SFAW

    @Immanentize:
    Despite the fairy tales Republicans tell themselves — “Clinton’s not legitimate, because Perot” blah blah blah — contemporaneous polling showed Perot taking equally from Clinton and Bush.

    That said, it seems pretty likely that Schultz or Bloomberg would take more from the Dem candidate than from the Traitor-in-Chief — unless those two tried to primary Shitgibbon. (Which I think is pretty unlikely, but what do I know?)

  48. 48.

    NotMax

    perhaps it is in the fact that he likely recognized, before even the first federal worker was furloughed, that Pelosi had already won.

    Assumes fact not in evidence anyplace in the known or unknown universe.

  49. 49.

    JPL

    A lot of the republican party voters are deplorable, and they will continue to support trump. Schultz’s campaign needs to crash and burn quickly.

  50. 50.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Lions in Namibia have turned to hunting seabirds and seals in the face of scarce food resources in the desert landscape, research has found.

    The desert lions, which are found exclusively within the country’s Skeleton Coast region, are the only lions known to target marine life. Among the creatures they have been recorded eating are fur seals, flamingos and cormorants.

    The conservationist Flip Stander, the author of the study published in the Namibian Journal of Environment, said the discovery showed the big cats have learned diet adaptability is key to survival in this unforgiving terrain.

    The Skeleton Coast spans the coastal backbone of Namibia and is the driest place in sub-Saharan Africa, receiving as little as 5mm (0.2in) of rain a year. The desert lion’s usual prey of oryx and ostriches are thin on the ground there. The neighbouring ocean, however, is rich in life, sustaining nearly 1m Cape fur seals that breed on the shoreline, and a multitude of seabirds.

  52. 52.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Immanentize:

    I do think if there are two independents or moreWarren or Gillibrand stays in the race through New Hampshire, that Bernie will be crushed.

    Fixed that for you. Sanders has the highest Do.Not.Want rating of any Democratic candidate among Democrats. He’s almost underwater. And with more accomplished women offering the same set of policies without all the baggage he brings to the table, there’s no rationale for his candidacy other than race. He’s also incompetent and lucked out last time because Clinton chose a “Don’t alienate Bernie’s supporters” that the Russians exploited. No one will do that this time and there are plenty of easy stories for people to feed the press.

  54. 54.

    germy

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Is Elizabeth Drew really so out of touch she’s never heard of a doggie bag?

    I was wondering the same thing. Either she only goes to trendy restaurants that serve micro portions, or she’s the type to leave food on her plate and not think twice about it.

    Sometimes these elite-types reveal themselves in the tiniest ways.

  55. 55.

    NotMax

    Repeating for the morning bunch.

    For people with a Steam account whose curiosity might be piqued.

    Free demo of Werewolves: Haven Rising available. Totally text game of the choose your own path sort. Clever premise and a lot of serious effort obviously went into polishing the writing, although would say the prologue is a bit too boggy and adjective heavy. As it is only text, free demo takes maybe 30 seconds to download with a decent internet connection. Allows you to play the first several chapters.

  56. 56.

    Ken

    @Plato:

    An even lower number, 28%, express confidence that Trump has the right personal characteristics to be president.

    Great time for the RNC to announce that they won’t allow any primary challenge to Trump.

  59. 59.

    NotMax

    @Ken

    Close enough to the magic 27% to be a rounding artifact.

    Would be curious what the percentage is who express confidence he has the right personal characteristics to be a person.

  62. 62.

    Anne Laurie

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Is Elizabeth Drew really so out of touch she’s never heard of a doggie bag?

    Elizabeth Drew is from a generation where ladies let readers draw their own conclusions about what (balls) might be in such a doggy bag!

  63. 63.

    Ken

    @Plato: There’s a definite pattern in the rightmost column. Does anyone have any numbers on political models? I imagine they would have a “minimum percentage that will vote R for president” number, and I’d like to know how Trump’s steady 41-42% compares.

  64. 64.

    Elmo

    @germy: Disagree. I think it was a deliberate sly implication that she was carrying Trump’s balls. Look at the first few comments here.

    I think that’s exactly the effect she was going for.

  65. 65.

    Ken

    My own theory of the white bag is that the staff took up a little collection, and asked Speaker Pelosi to visit the White House and set it on fire on the porch.

  67. 67.

    Betty Cracker

    @Bobby Thomson: If the Bernie cultists were smart (spoiler alert: they’re not), they’d be making a positive case and appealing to people who didn’t support the High Sparrow in 2016. I believe the anger of Democrats who felt burned by Sanders in 2016 is an important story that gets almost no coverage.

  74. 74.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    they’d be making a positive case and appealing to people who didn’t support the High Sparrow in 2016.

    Key to Bernie supporters theory of winning was the assumption that they would have the Democratic base. It was such a given they didn’t feel they had to do any outreach or persuasion. They started at “base” and then added “Trump voters”, which is quite the arrogant leap, I must say. Bernie is actually the candidate who takes the D base for granted. He inexplicably believes that part is in the bag for him. It wasn’t, which is why he lost the primary.

  75. 75.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Steven Taylor at Outside The Beltway: Bernie is Doomed

    Doug Mataconis notes that Bernie Sander appears poised for a second attempt at the Democratic nomination. This is no surprise and and is all well and good, but this time won’t be like 2016.

    1) As Doug noted: the field is going to be crowded. Last time the race quickly became Clinton v. Sanders. Anti-Hillary Democrats had nowhere to go but to Bernie. This will not be true in 2020.
    2) He will have to deal with the charges of sexism in his previous campaign.
    3) This quote is going to kill him: “Many of my opponents do not hold that view, and they think that all that we need is people who are candidates who are black or white, who are black or Latino or woman or gay, regardless of what they stand for, that the end result is diversity.” Yes, he was saying that issues should trump the gender, race, or ethnicity of the candidate. Ultimately, this is true. But for a candidate who had trouble with a key Democratic constituency in 2016, i.e., African-Americans, trying to run against a very diverse set of competitors, this attitude will not be helpful.

    Indeed, in a field full of female candidates and candidates of color, with a nominating voter base that is heavily female and of color, how does he possibility overcome being the old white man from New England?

    ……………….

    I would note, yet again, that he is not currently a Democrat. He is an independent who caucuses with the Democrats and it is only our (the US’) very porous party structure that allows him to compete for the party’s nomination. But this fact means that he will be unlikely to get the kind of institutional support the others in the filed will get–and that part will be the same as in 2016.

    That last is specifically why I did not vote for Bernie the last time around.

  76. 76.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I don’t think that Saint Bernard of Burlington will have as much an effect on the race as Adam does. Remember the VRWC(Vast Right Wing Conspiracy) had been demonizing Hillary for 25 years nationwide and 40 years in Arkansas. Add in the Russian meddling and you get alot of folk with an ‘anyone but Hillary’ attitude.

  77. 77.

    Princess

    The Speaker carried a small white paper bag, I know not what was in it.

    She took the cannoli.

  81. 81.

    schrodingers_cat

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:I agree with you. I live in BS country. Vt is less than half an hour’s drive from where I live. BS won the primary in my town the last time around. This time, I don’t see much enthusiasm for him. Elizabeth Warren is their girl this time around.

  84. 84.

    JWR

    I think Tom Brokaw picked the wrong time to learn the twitters. He’s getting reamed in the comments. This was his last post of last night:

    Tom Brokaw
    ‏Verified account @tombrokaw

    it worked!

    i got your attention.

    ‘night
    7:52 PM – 27 Jan 2019

  87. 87.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Its a plausible scenario if people have learnt nothing from 2016. 2018 proves otherwise. We shall see.

    ETA: Shultz campaign will fizzle out and BS won’t be that big of deal, I don’t see very many people of either party yearning for Gen Theranos, either.

    ETA2: Gen. Theranos constituency is the media, who loves them some Republican generals.

  89. 89.

    Amir Khalid

    @germy:
    Doggy bags seem to be an American thing, maybe because the portions in restaurants over there are often more than a diner can finish. In my experience, in Asia or Europe you seldom have leftovers to take home; and the waiter would be surprised if you asked for a doggy bag.

  90. 90.

    schrodingers_cat

    @rikyrah: Agreed. The generals in the T admin didn’t save us from T, they were his willing accomplices. The shutdown saga demonstrates it is women who have stood up to T. The millions who marched, campaigned and flipped the Congress and now Madame Speaker and the newly elected Ds.

  92. 92.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Schultz is running on the “opportunity culture” idea that Democrats lost on for 2 cycles. It’s a loser, but a certain segment of wealthy people love it. It’s supposedly the centrist counter to someone running on a more robust social safety net. Schultz isn’t worried about Donald Trump. Schultz is worried about a liberal backlash to Trump. That’s what he finds threatening.

  94. 94.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: @Baud: This Friday we had dinner with the realtor who helped us buy our house and her husband, both are Ds in their 60s. T repels them, and they have no use for BS. They were also pretty much on board with the theory that media threw the election to T and propped up BS long after he was viable. They were also fully aware of BS cost Hillary some crucial votes.
    2016 has made political junkies out of a lot of people. Husband kitteh is one of them. He is a total Nancy Pelosi groupie now. He wants her to be the President.

  100. 100.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    It occurred to me watching Bernie’s ads in Ohio in the primary. They weren’t primary ads. They were general election ads. They were designed to appeal to independents and college-educated Republicans. That’s especially weird in Ohio because we have a closed primary where you have to declare to take a primary ballot. The people he was appealing to wouldn’t be voting in a primary. You see it when Bernistas claim he would have beat Trump- they assume the entire Democratic base would have come out for him PLUS people who didn’t want to vote for Trump. They lost the primary. Why would they assume they had the whole Democratic base going into the general? That’s pretty arrogant.

    It felt manufactured to me- like an actual theory of the race that came out of his campaign. “We’ll SKIP the base-uniting part and move right to the general! Genius!” They probably told themselves that was to get past the “party bosses” or whatever the fuck, but at base it relies on a LOT of assumptions.

  104. 104.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    they assume the entire Democratic base would have come out for him 

    My take is that they correctly surmised that the actual Democratic base would put country over party or ego and come out to stop Trump, so that’s why they took the base for granted.

  106. 106.

    Barbara

    @Kay: That is painful to contemplate. I suspect Bloomberg is similar but at least he has a track record of participation in elected office. Steyer is a different kettle of fish.

  107. 107.

    Baud

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    In fairness to Bernie, I can see how a lot of things people said and did during the Obama years would make someone like him think that the entire party was full of self-hating Democrats.

  108. 108.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: And he regularly pulls this shit in Vt. Runs in the primaries as a D and then runs as an independent in the general. And people there lurve him (anecdata), so he thought it he could extrapolate it nationwide.

  109. 109.

    SFAW

    @RedDirtGirl:

    My newest button design:

    PELOSI
    2019!

    I threatened my wife with getting one made. Told her to show it to her boss (who’s a Shitgibbonista). For some reason, she was not amused.

  110. 110.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay:

    You see it when Bernistas claim he would have beat Trump- they assume the entire Democratic base would have come out for him PLUS people who didn’t want to vote for Trump. They lost the primary. Why would they assume they had the whole Democratic base going into the general? That’s pretty arrogant.

    The theory was probably “where else are they gonna go?” I mean, I’d have voted for Bernie in the general, no question. But enthusiasm does drive turnout.

  111. 111.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    I see from the last tweet the Republicans are well on their way of telling themselves they won, well not surprising considering how many Republicans are Southern Revisionists.

  112. 112.

    MomSense

    Chuck Todd really doesn’t get how journalism works. He’s a useful idiot for Republican spin. His tweet had zero value except for the unnamed GOP operative who wanted to insert another anti- Dem narrative for more gullible and gossipy villagers to repeat while they tilt their heads and look concerned. Of course they will offer up their cautions in those moments when they can suck some of the energy away from a Dem win.

  113. 113.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: Correct. How many times have commenters said that here? Still arrogant as fuck on their part and why they lost.

  114. 114.

    Baud

    @MomSense:

    Chuck Todd really doesn’t get how journalism works. He’s a useful idiot for Republican spin. 

    Hmm. Maybe he understands exactly how modern journalism works.

  115. 115.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @SFAW:

    Told her to show it to her boss (who’s a Shitgibbonista).

    Meh. If he votes trump I doubt he’d get the joke.

  116. 116.

    Betty Cracker

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Thanks for the link! That was interesting:

    Eric and I later talked about the reasons why I left. He replied that he didn’t think politics was something to split up over, that it didn’t matter that much to him. I said that it does to me. And that was the heart of the issue, right there: It matters a lot to me.

    I am somewhat estranged from Trumpster relatives (including my dad), and when the reasons why come up, they have a similar line: “It’s just politics.” Nope. It’s values.

    My husband and I have political disagreements in that sometimes we favor different candidates and means of prioritizing and achieving political goals. But we share the same values, among them a commitment to equality for women, people of color, LGBTQ folks, etc. Trumpsters either don’t share those values or have expressed a depraved indifference to them by voting for a racist, sexist xenophobe. I can’t reconcile that either.

  118. 118.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker: Tell them you’re going to take away their guns and tax the shit out of them to pay for health care, and see how long they stick with the “just politics” line.

  120. 120.

    Jeffro

    @RedDirtGirl:

    My newest button design:

    PELOSI
    2019!

    That’s awesome and I’ll take a dozen. Now can you also make one that says “both sides” with a red circle and slash through it? I’ll take eight million of those, please.

  122. 122.

    MomSense

    Can we celebrate for a moment that Kamala Harris’ description of trump and his administration as malware is perfection. “We have foreign powers infecting the White House like malware”

  123. 123.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud: Chuck Todd’s wife was spokeswoman for Jim Webb’s successful campaign for the US Senate in Virginia (2006). When he defeated incumbent Senator George Allen (who helped defeat himself with “macaca” that year).

    Kristian Denny Todd was advising Webb on his potential 2016 bid, which he suspended. She’s a co-founder of Maverick Strategies and Mail.

    So yeah, wired for pseudo-Democrats. I will always appreciate Jim Webb running and winning in 2006, though. Volunteered heavily for his campaign. We have not had a Republican US Senator in Virginia since Allen was defeated.

  124. 124.

    O. Felix Culpa

    I think the underestimation of Nancy Pelosi is in direct proportion to the overestimation of Paul Ryan.

    Huh. Wonder why.

  126. 126.

    Elizabelle

    @O. Felix Culpa: Well, genitally speaking… And leaving aside party affiliation …

    I do wonder if Howard Schultz (Daddy Starbucks, in dmsilev’s phrase) is eager to jump in because if a woman is Speaker of the House, how hard can political leadership be?

  130. 130.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Kay: Sanders believes that deep down everyone already agrees with him about everything and that they just need to break the chains of brainwashing by The Establishment. I think he genuinely thinks that Republicans don’t really want to be Republicans, they’re just confused, is all. It’s simplistic, convenient, and condescending, but so is he.

  132. 132.

    Jeffro

    Btw it is nothing short of hysterical to see Twitler trying desperately to shore up his base by…get this…tweeting about how great it is that some states are initiating “Bible Literacy” classes. For realz! Sign the man up, he certainly doesn’t know the first goddamn thing about the bible, pun intended.

    When he goes, his tweets are just going to be random red meat buzzwords to his base, all strung together. “BIBLECLASSESWALLWALLDUCTTAPEJUDGESWESTERNCIVILIZATIONWALLTAXCUTSJUDGESMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!”

    What am I saying, that’s about all he’s doing now…

  133. 133.

    low-tech cyclist

    @Betty Cracker:

    I am somewhat estranged from Trumpster relatives (including my dad), and when the reasons why come up, they have a similar line: “It’s just politics.” Nope. It’s values.

    My husband and I have political disagreements in that sometimes we favor different candidates and means of prioritizing and achieving political goals. But we share the same values, among them a commitment to equality for women, people of color, LGBTQ folks, etc. Trumpsters either don’t share those values or have expressed a depraved indifference to them by voting for a racist, sexist xenophobe. I can’t reconcile that either.

    This. Back in a bygone age (1980s) when I was still single and looking, I boiled down two necessary conditions for a workable marriage down to 10 words:

    Mutual trust and respect
    Shared or compatible goals/values/worldview

    If two people have those, they can likely make a go of it if they put in the work. If they don’t, it’s hard for me to see how any amount of work can overcome the tidal forces pulling them apart: it’s a relationship that ultimately doesn’t want to work.

    And so it is with people on one hand who are motivated by compassion and empathy, and Trumpsters on the other hand. When push comes to shove, they’re OK with cruelty and hate, they’re OK with white supremacists and neo-Nazis, they’re OK with ruthlessly separating children from their parents, locking them up in separate freezing cages, and not even bothering to keep good track of which child came in with which parent as they relocate each one to concentration camps in different parts of the country.

    You can’t even paper over fundamental differences like that, let alone genuinely bridge them. The only thing to do with a marriage like that is admit it can’t work, and leave it behind.

  135. 135.

    Immannetize

    @SFAW: OT Are you still here? Are you the one who had a little ee cummings run in a week or so back? I had an insight last night….

    ETA Or, I’ll catch you later, I have class in 15….

  136. 136.

    Luthe

    @Plato: I don’t care about national numbers. I want numbers from likely voters in key swing states. As shown in 2016, you can win the nation and lose the EC and the EC is all that matters.

  137. 137.

    Immannetize

    @Luthe: Also, those numbers are name recognition numbers almost without any context. It’s going to be a long and fretful 18 months.

  138. 138.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Jeffro: Trump thinks praying is funny:

    Mr. Christie recounted introducing Mr. Trump to Mr. Pence, at a meeting where Mr. Pence said a short prayer. “Does he do that all the time?” Mr. Trump asked Mr. Christie later. When Mr. Christie replied yes, Mr. Trump responded, “Interesting.”

  140. 140.

    WaterGirl

    @NotMax: I know, I thought that was total bullshit! Even after their reporting on how Trump had no idea that a shutdown could impact so many things, even after their reporting that Trump was shocked by the response and said “we’re getting crushed!”, even after everything that is right in front of their noses, they push this crap.

  147. 147.

    Heidi Mom

    @OzarkHillbilly: When I was growing up, my family accepted whatever cats showed up at the door, and we weren’t too imaginative in naming them. There must have been a strong calico strain in the neighborhood, as we ended up with three calico cats in succession and named them Alice I, Alice II, and Alice III.

  148. 148.

    SFAW

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Meh. If he votes trump I doubt he’d get the joke.

    I wish. Actually fairly smart in their field of expertise (one facet of medical care, and not an easy area), so I don’t understand the support for Shitgibbon. But I don’t think it would be a “career-enhancing move” for my wife to wear it.

  149. 149.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Betty Cracker:

    “It’s just politics.” Nope. It’s values.

    Never forget this. The gap between Republicans and Democrats is unbridgable, and people like Sanders are fools, because the things we think are good they think are bad, and vice versa. They don’t want people to be happy. They want to pick who suffers. They think everyone being happy is a bad thing. You can’t convince them with facts, because facts aren’t the point. You can’t open their eyes, because their eyes are open. When we hear stories about an American citizen detained by ICE and are horrified, they are thrilled.

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Sanders believes that deep down everyone already agrees with him about everything and that they just need to break the chains of brainwashing by The Establishment.

    This is inherent in socialism. If it’s all class war, you just need to shake the 99% awake and they will crush the rich. I used to give him the credit of that, larded with a little bit of being a self-absorbed privileged prick. Then he tried to co-opt the kids’ anti-gun movement, the exact opposite of his beliefs. Fuck that guy. He is not honest. He’s a deliberate ratfucker trying to destroy the Democratic Party.

  150. 150.

    SFAW

    @Immannetize:

    Are you the one who had a little ee cummings run in a week or so back?

    If you’re talking about the “plato told him” thing, regarding a certain commenter’s former nom/nym, yes, that was I.

    I’ll be around most of the day, but not sure when I’ll check back here. But, for what it’s worth, I always think you have class

    ETA: Because there’s still no “persistence” re: our info, you might check your nym’s spelling.

  151. 151.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    Schultz is running on the “opportunity culture” idea that Democrats lost on for 2 cycles. It’s a loser, but a certain segment of wealthy people love it. It’s supposedly the centrist counter to someone running on a more robust social safety net. Schultz isn’t worried about Donald Trump. Schultz is worried about a liberal backlash to Trump. That’s what he finds threatening.

    Tell that truth, Kay.

  152. 152.

    rikyrah

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    The gap between Republicans and Democrats is unbridgable, and people like Sanders are fools, because the things we think are good they think are bad, and vice versa. They don’t want people to be happy. They want to pick who suffers. They think everyone being happy is a bad thing. You can’t convince them with facts, because facts aren’t the point. You can’t open their eyes, because their eyes are open. When we hear stories about an American citizen detained by ICE and are horrified, they are thrilled.

    THIS THIS.
    A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

    There is absolutely NOTHING to compromise with them on, because our BELIEFS are absolutely too different. There isn’t anything around the edges anymore for compromise.

    We see kids in cages and want to take a bat to someone.
    They see kids in cages, and purse their lips to EXPLAIN why it’s ok.

    There IS no room for compromise.

  153. 153.

    Elizabelle

    @rikyrah:

    From Kay: Schultz is worried about a liberal backlash to Trump. That’s what he finds threatening.

    Word. And that is simple enough to say to those who might be “Schultz-curious.” Of course, his actual constituency (glibertarians, tech bros, money people, embarrassed Republicans) will find it thrilling.

  154. 154.

    Sebastian

    @Betty Cracker:

    Accessories after the fact, all of them. I’d like to see public hearings about these editorial decisions and subpoenas of all their internal communication. How about we grill Zuck and Zucker and Jack and all the other assorted shitheads each for 12 hours each day for a few days until they say a lie and bust their asses.

    How long do we have to pretend that this is all a huge misunderstanding by innocent players when it is obvious that they are the enemy? Trump projected and attacked the MSM and we reflectively went to their defense. They need to be destroyed, wiped out. (Salute to Villago)

  155. 155.

    Elizabelle

    @Kathleen: Did not know that.

    Shades of pundit Ron Brownstein, married to a Saint John McCain staff member. There’s some objectivity there.

  157. 157.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @rikyrah:

    They see kids in cages, and purse their lips to EXPLAIN why it’s ok.

    Liberals want people to be happy. Conservatives want to pick who suffers.

    I’m keeping that line, because it sums the whole thing up perfectly, including their bigotry. Listen to how the two sides argue any issue, and you’ll see this divide.

  158. 158.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: @rikyrah: @Elizabelle: Schultz-curious: gag. Billionaires, even left-leaning ones, who look at the damage trumpov has wrought and still primarily (or even equally) worry about a liberal backlash, “oh noes free health care free college are gonna cut into my billions”, make me sick.

    An incompetent, corrupt, treasonous Corleone wanna-be is in the WH (and up until just a few weeks ago, was being enabled 110% by his gang of fellow looters and traitors). And somehow entitlement spending is on a par with THAT as an issue of concern? Hard pass.

  159. 159.

    RedDirtGirl

    @hueyplong: Any chance you are on Twitter? I’m at @ivankathrowup. You can message me there and send your address. Also that same name at gmail. Am already sending one to another BJ jackal for the cost of postage.

  162. 162.

    gwangung

    @rikyrah: Indeed. And I think we need to recognize that Republican voters ALREADY vote this way.

    Liberals need to recognize they also vote on values and behave accordingly.

  163. 163.

    bemused

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Very interesting. It wasn’t just politics that split this couple. The husband clearly showed he is a mini-trump. What stood out to me was when he said he doesn’t need her for a friend, he’s got plenty of friends.

  164. 164.

    The Moar You Know

    Eric and I later talked about the reasons why I left. He replied that he didn’t think politics was something to split up over, that it didn’t matter that much to him.

    @Betty Cracker: But it did. He was willing to lose his entire family and marriage over it. Gotta be a pretty big deal, I would say.

  165. 165.

    The Moar You Know

    Very interesting. It wasn’t just politics that split this couple. The husband clearly showed he is a mini-trump. What stood out to me was when he said he doesn’t need her for a friend, he’s got plenty of friends.

    @bemused: Yeah, that was horrific. My two best friends are my wife and my dog, in that order.

    Put real crudely: if she ain’t your friend, what is the difference between your wife and a prostitute? The cost?

  166. 166.

    bemused

    @The Moar You Know:

    A handmaiden seemed to be his preference. He definitely didn’t believe in marriage as a co-equal partnership. Not considering your spouse a friend is just plain weird.
    I’d like to know if she had more influence on her kids and they didn’t turn out like dad.

  167. 167.

    tobie

    @Elizabelle: I find the hubris of business types thinking they can just waltz into government and show those who have spent years thinking about law and policy how things are done astonishing. GW Bush was our first MBA President; Trump is our first small-business-owner President; Tillerson was our first corporate-exec Secretary of State. They all SUCKED at their job. You’d think people would realize that business requires a different set of skills than public service.

  170. 170.

    Elizabelle

    @Jeffro:
    @tobie:

    My gawd. Trump actually tweeted something we might agree with. WaPost headline: I have not read the story.

    Trump tweets that Howard Schultz lacks the guts and smarts to be president

    Mind you, Trump has neither as well. But I’ll take it.

  173. 173.

    MCA1

    @Kay: That sounds about right. One of the few areas in which Democrats actually are moving away from the center (which they’ve occupied the last two decades while the GOP has drifted off the board to the right, dragging the Overton Window with them) is economic and tax policy. Which scares the billionaires, no matter how socially liberal they may be.

    In any event, my problem with him so far isn’t the pretension to being “centrist,” it’s that he’s ALREADY pitching a both sides line of horseshit by denouncing what he terms a “politics of revenge.” Fuck that noise, dude. If you honestly think Democrats are engaged in revenge, you have thoroughly lost the plot. Merrick Garland says “Hi.”
    And if you don’t actually believe that, because you can see the clear reality of the American political landscape, of completely asymmetrical polarization and where it’s taken us, then you should know better than to do anything other than work to elect a Democrat to the White House.

  174. 174.

    Philbert

    @tobie: @tobie: Cheryl or BC (I think, pls correct me) wrote a screed a while back on the outsider (white) man on a white horse romantic hero syndrome. I tell these people I want someone knowledgeable about public policy, and skilled at pushing and implementing changes through an organization with separate and independent power centers. This generally leads to my dismissal as childishly naive.

  176. 176.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay:

    Schultz is running on the “opportunity culture” idea that Democrats lost on for 2 cycles. It’s a loser, but a certain segment of wealthy people love it.

    It’s an excellent adaptation to the political environment of the early 1990s.

  177. 177.

    Matt McIrvin

    @MCA1: It seems to me that Democrats have been moving to the left in most ways, but only since about 2005. Bush’s reelection was about rock bottom. Economics, yes, but also the cultural stuff: definitely attitudes toward race, gender and LGBT rights. (Still too timid on abortion.) On foreign policy, a mixed picture, but they at least moved away from Bush-type neocon aggression after the disasters of his second term.

    It’s just that the party had shifted to the center so much from about 1988-2005 that the change in direction still hasn’t registered to many people.

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