The text of the resolution that the House is voting on today is out [pdf]. It’s a broad condemnation of anti-Semitism, Islamaphobia and racism, carefully crafted to make no Democrat especially happy and no Democrat especially angry (maybe, we’ll see).
My prediction is that a fair number of Republicans will vote against it because it doesn’t defend the real victims: white Evangelical Christians.
MattF
I suppose that if it makes everyone equally unhappy, it will have served its purpose.
May I mention that I am very very very very very weary of ‘Dems in disarray’ clickbait?
Sab
Yay. Rob Portman gets to vote for hate and intolerance. He probably won’t even see the irony.
Aleta
Thanks. I think you’re right; and they’ll lie that it’s ‘more evidence’ of RWC persecution.
A Ghost To Most
Once again, religion ruins everything.
dmsilev
Fixed for completeness.
Aleta
weary of āDems in disarrayā clickbait
@MattF: I bet we see even more of that as coverage of crimes and impeachment increases. Because media corporations pretend that article count and word clouds are the measure of balanced and fair.
BC in Illinois
Okay.
A resolution to ” . . . confront the reality of anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, racism, and other forms of bigotry . . .” That goes into detail of historic Anti-Semitism, white nationalism, the Klan, white supremacists, attacks on Synagogues, attacks on Mosques, the internment of Japanese-Americans, the history of “dual loyalty” as a slur, and includes this kind of language to keep the Republicans on their toes:
I hope it achieves the goal that I have for it – – to put this to rest and move on.
It puts down a marker for all in the public eye, and for all of us:
–to be careful how we speak.
–to be careful how we judge.
We are all in this together.
James E Powell
I have to put aside how much I hate this whole episode and hope it fades in significance.The Democratic Party tendency of bowing to RW pressure is the bane of the nation.
Jeffro
I’m confused, was there some sort of controversy over some Rep’s remarks recently or something?
Mary G
Ru-roh, WaPo digging up old dirt on Uncle Joe with article titled Bidenās tough talk on 1970s school desegregation plan could get new scrutiny in todayās Democratic Party
It’s unfortunate, because he has been liberal on almost everything except busing, and was VP to Obama, but Republican/Russian/Rose/FakeBlack Twitter is going to be all over this now.
Kraux Pas
I’m glad they crafted it the way they did and aren’t using this opportunity to single out any *particular* members.
Ohio Mom
@Sab: LOL. When you are proven correct, I think Iāll call his offices and taunt his interns.
geg6
Fuck this bullshit. I know Nancy tried hard to make this as fair as possible, but…
Fuck this bullshit. What they’ve now done is make me even more disdainful of AIPAC, Likud and Israel’s willing accomplices in my own party. Personally, I want a House resolution condemning Israeli apartheid.
Just fuck this bullshit.
Gin & Tonic
@Mary G: WaPo also apparently reporting that Michael Cohen is suing the Trump Org. for $1.9M in unpaid legal fees. Nice to know that Trump is consistent and stiffs *everybody*.
Duane
@MattF: Learning to disregard all the clickbait is another reason I appreciate this place. The conservative framing by MSM is glaring. There is no “both sides.”
Kraux Pas
@geg6:
Ooh! Yes, please.
geg6
When is the Manafort sentencing? I need a good sentencing to make up for this major show of cowardice.
oldster
Republicans are still pushing for a resolution that condemns calling racists racists.
“Whereas the real racists are the people who call anyone racist,
and whereas the real victims of racism are any white people who are criticized for their racism,
and whereas…”
Brachiator
What a load of horse shit. Because this does not apply to Trump and Republicans. It does not apply to the goobers who support this idiot.
Today’s google doodle honors the mathematician Olga Ladyzhenskaya. She had a hard time getting a job, was suspected as being a poor citizen by the government and could not leave the Soviet Union.
In 1937 her father was arrested by the NKVD and executed as an “enemy of the people”.
We have a president who has branded the press as an enemy of the people and who regularly suggests that Obama judges and appointees are, by definition, unfair and probably un-American. Right wing fools regularly stir up anti-semites and racists and foolishly believe that they can safely channel bigotry for their own political ends.
Meanwhile the Democrats are wasting time coming up with bullshit resolutions to address non-issues.
Kraux Pas
@Brachiator:
Fortunately they can walk and chew gum at the same time.
The Lodger
@Mary G: Joe was a vocal opponent of busing in his first campaign for New Castle County commissioner back in the 70s. Since it hasn’t been a hot issue for decades, it’s interesting that the media is starting to go after that part of his history. I also don’t know how much he’s changed.
Johnny Gentle (famous crooner)
I applaud the Democrats for this. It would’ve looked really bad if they refused to follow the precedent of all the resolutions Republicans passed condemning Steve King’s open and flagrant racism.
Kraux Pas
@Johnny Gentle (famous crooner):
That said, I wish their reference to politicians using racism for political gain, like Steve King does, was a little less…oblique.
Mandalay
@geg6:
This.
The absurd and false charges that were hurled at Rep. Omar were carefully crafted to divert attention from a larger issue she raised: the preferential treatment Israel receives from the US government.
While the media blathered about “tropes”, conflated hostility to Israel’s policies with antisemitism, and pondered whether Omar was worse than Steve King, discussion of issues such as why we even give a dime of aid to Israel were shelved.
Omar has surely learned from this, and won’t make so easy for Pelosi next time. If she uses more carefully crafted words that can’t be disingenuously framed as being antisemitic the leadership is going to have to start talking about the elephant in the room. And Sanders, Harris and Warren have her back now.
Kdaug
Here in TX, hogs are making a comeback. It was one thing when they were out in some fields or forests somewhere. It’s another when they’re tearing up lawns and pets start disappearing
Interesting times
MisterForkbeard
@Mandalay:
That’s exactly it, though. Pelosi even said this in her statement yesterday – that Omar didn’t have any anti-semitic intention but that the words she used were a potential problem for many. This is bullshit and Pelosi knows it, but she can’t risk having the Democrats be seen as the “anti-semitic” party by the media, which was a real risk here without some kind of action.
rikyrah
This entire thing is absolute bullshyt.
But, I am thankful for those out in the hinterlands, who took to the phones, emails, faxes, to contact their Democrats, and told them that the original bullshyt aimed at Omar was unacceptable.
rikyrah
@geg6:
tell it. preach it.
And come sit by me
Roger Moore
@Kdaug:
I think there’s a swing back in the direction of wild (technically feral in the case of hogs) making a comeback in populated areas because people’s attitudes toward nature have changed. We’re much more likely to see problems with wild animals as being a result of us encroaching on their territory rather than of them being problematic. Today when a wild animal starts killing people’s pets, there are calls to be more careful with the pets. A couple of generations ago, it would have been used as justification for an extermination campaign, or at least for a massive increase in the number of hunting licenses.
geg6
OT but my niece just literally saved someoneās life. She was on a field trip to the Carnegie Science Center in Pittsburgh with her AP biology class and they were having lunch. She was yacking with her friends and not paying attention when one of them choked on a chicken nugget and also vomited while choking. One of the boys tried the the Heimlich but, not being trained, was unsuccessful. Thatās when Caitlin noticed, got up and shoved him out the way, saying āIām trained in thisā (sheās a lifeguard at the local Y). She did the Heimlich and got him breathing and stayed with him until the cops, firefighters and paramedics got there. Heās now at the nearby trauma center and the pros were all congratulating and calling her a hero. When they got back to school, the whole high school was waiting to cheer for her. Between this and her recent opportunity to do orthopedic surgery on a cadaver has made her decision to major in pre-med when she goes off to college next year look pretty solid. So proud of her and her cool head.
Mike in DC
The absurd irony of cracking down on a member of Congress who dares suggest that Israel(actually, Likud) has an outsize influence on American policy does not escape me.
The Midnight Lurker
@Kdaug: They have been for a long time. A friend of mine owns some acreage down Houston way. He has a retired DPS officer living in a trailer on site. One night a few years back, a herd of wild hogs swarmed his place and destroyed everything – fences, porch, garden, etc. Killed two of his dogs too. Now the poor bastard is afraid to venture out at night.
Hogs have been a big problem for farmers and ranchers for years. Now that pets are starting to go missing – maybe the rest of us will notice. Hopefully before humans do.
Gin & Tonic
@The Midnight Lurker: Bacon!!
Martin
@A Ghost To Most: Eh. Some of it is racism. Some of it is ass-covering for shoving dollars into Saudi Arabia and then struggling to justify a moral reason for doing that, so shoving a comparable number of dollars into Saudi Arabia’s target at least gives them some cover. Religion is just one sin of many in this shitshow.
Ninedragonspot
@geg6: That is an awesome story, just what I needed today.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Sounds like a thing of beauty then.
The Midnight Lurker
@Gin & Tonic: They tried that! Not enough guns. In Texas!!! Go figure.
FlipYrWhig
@geg6: AMAZING!
raven
@geg6: Good job. I was a WSI way back in the day and the Aquatics Director a the Y asked me if I wanted to become a guard when I retire. It sounds like the physical part of the Life Saver Curriculum is not nearly as rigorous as it used to be. May give it a whirl.
raven
@The Midnight Lurker: I takes more than just “a gun” to kill one of those fuckers.
FlipYrWhig
@James E Powell:
Was this a case of rightwing pressure, though? AFAICT this was mostly pressure from Northeastern Jewish moderate/center-left professional-class types like the ones I grew up around in the 1980s.
Wapiti
@Roger Moore: I think hunting is waning, despite or because of the nuttification of gun culture. (ie, assume a random population of gun owners, some assholes and some 1950s model good hunters. People don’t want asshole hunters on their land, so the land is posted, and the good hunters have fewer places to hunt, and the sport declines.)
geg6
@Ninedragonspot:
@FlipYrWhig:
@raven:
What’s so amazing is that I know this kid and the one she shoved out of the way. Caitlin is just a tiny little thing, maybe 5’1″ and 100 pounds. And there she was, shoving a football lineman out of the way to, basically, pick up a basketball player and bounce him around until the nugget came out. She’s a tough little thing.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Mary G:
Not just Bots and Trolls…
I think itās a completely legitimate topic for discussion – this is part of Bidenās political history. And it pisses me off. I already am not a Joe Biden fan (there are lots of reasons, mostly regarding his pre-Obama politics) – but this shit is real and isnāt going away.
DONāT RUN, JOE!!!
Mandalay
Kirsten Gillibrand proudly (shamelessly?) stands with the Republican Party:
So Rep. Omar can freely discuss Israel as long as she doesn’t mention icky topics such as “money or influence”?
Thanks for sharing Senator, and letting us know where you stand. I hope your campaign crashes and burns.
The Midnight Lurker
@raven: You’re telling me! I used to hunt those fuckers in my youth. A deer rifle is all but useless. I had finally stepped up to a .375 H&H magnum, which would drop them like the hand of God, but when you’re up against hundreds… good luck to you, Hog Chow.
The other side of the equation is processing. The average hog can go easily 300 – 400 lbs. with some getting into the 500 – 600 range. Ever gut and skin one? For two men it’s a two-three hour job. And then you still have to process the carcass. $$$.
They’re burning the midnight oil down at A&M trying to figure a solution.
Brachiator
@geg6: Great story. Very cool that she stayed with the kid to make sure he was OK while waiting for the paramedics, etc.
Peale
@FlipYrWhig: Yep. My understanding of part of this is that the Eliot Engel is the one who she’s having the biggest problems with. And yeah, there’s probably a little bit of worry that if the party gets labeled as the anti-semitic party, they’ll have a tough time winning Florida.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Peale: …While running against Nazi-sympathetic Republicans!
The media is a right wing propaganda organ – and not just Fox News.
EthylEster
@Mary G: I’m sorry but Biden is too old and too connected with the last 40 years of Democratic politics. I do NOT want him even in a primary. Things change.
Martin
Interesting how the presidential candidates are jumping into this. Harris, Sanders, Warren ostensibly backing up Omar, Gillibrand chiding her. Seems the safe move would have been to stay out of this particular shitshow, but they jumped in, and that’s interesting.
trollhattan
@geg6:
Nice, that’s awesome! A cool head on that one.
Did somebody rescue the nugget?
debit
I hope everyone can take a moment to contact Rep Omar and leave a message of support. I tried leaving her a voicemail but both her local and DC mailboxes were full. I don’t think you can send an email using the form on her website unless you’re a constituent (I am) I guess you could try? You know she’s being hammered by the howler monkey brigade.
geg6
@trollhattan:
LOL! I think it may have been a little gross, what with all the vomit and such.
Another Scott
@Mandalay: Marko Worman on PRI’s The World tried to carefully address this issue yesterday (“What constitutes anti-Semitism?”). He interviewed American Rabbi Susan Silverman who made some good points, but she was horrible about putting words in Omar’s mouth. When Worman gently called her out on it, she said something like “it’s all part of the same story” and wouldn’t back down from what she said (that Omar didn’t say). It was infuriating.
But it illustrates how difficult it is to have a conversation separated from all the cultural and historical baggage that we all carry around.
Here’s hoping that this resolution – if it passes – helps Democrats to at least be able to say – “we addressed it, moving on, let’s talk about what we’re trying to do for the American People…”
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Wapiti
@Mandalay: I think she’s totally free to mention money and influence as long as she avoids anti-Semitic tropes.
tarragon
@trollhattan:
Oh ew… Not helping.
Edited to add: I used to be a member in good standing of alt.tasteless . How age changes things.
Sab
@Another Scott: I heard that interview. I was screaming at the radio in my car the whole way home.
Another Scott
@debit: Her campaign website is still up (with a donation link) – https://www.ilhanomar.com/ – also too.
Cheers,
Scott.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Gin & Tonic: Mmmmmm, Bacon.
Brachiator
@geg6:
I think it’s more about applying pressure correctly than using brute strength. People’s ribs have been broken from incorrectly applied Heimlich squeezes.
@trollhattan:
I recall reading about a guy coughing up a chunk of an expensive steak when a rescuer applied the Heimlich. I wondered whether the guy went on to eat it again.
tobie
A friend sent me this from Tablet, which was interesting as a data point:
The resolution is both silly and damaging at the same time, but I’m wary of pinning the blame on AIPAC if the stats in this article are true. AIPAC’s to the left what George Soros is to the right. The alarmist in me notes that the bogeymen of the left and the right are both Jewish.
chris
@debit: Fax your MOC for free.
https://faxzero.com/fax_congress.php
Mandalay
@Wapiti:
This is what Rep. Omar said:
Folks here have no problem demanding to see Trump’s tax returns, and insisting that he has a loyalty to Russia. Fine. Let’s see how many of the donors and Democrats in Congress who are outraged by Omar’s remarks have Israeli citizenship.
I’ll have more sympathy with Democrats in Congress going after Omar if they draft a bill requiring members of Congress to disclose whether they are a citizen of any country other than the USA. Right now we have no idea.
R-Jud
@geg6: Wow. Sounds like that will be the first of many lives she saves. Go Caitlin!
trollhattan
O/T Opening graf of An Art-Historical Analysis of Cersei Lannister Sipping Wine
Reminiscent of a certain “Atlas Shrugged”-“Lord of the Rings” comparo but anyway, a fun read.
tobie
@Mandalay: And this is what she tweeted:
and this
Tweet number two traffics overtly in anti-Semitic tropes. I’m really stunned that so many of you find this not just acceptable but laudable and worthy of campaign donations.
It would have been fine for Omar to talk about what is wrong with our foreign policy. But she went the conspiracy route and talked instead about the nefarious Jewish influence on US policy. That’s been the problem all along. We treated Japanese-Americans during WWII as having divided loyalties and we wouldn’t accept that rhetoric today. Why are we not in the least disturbed when the same argument is made regarding American Jews?
MisterForkbeard
@Mandalay: The problem (as has been noted by more than a few people) is that “allegiance to a foreign country” is specifically an older anti-semitic trope.
Complaining about why you can’t say this when we can say similar things about Trump being loyal to Russia is a lot like listening to Rush Limbaugh complain he’s not being racist when he calls out a black person as “articulate”, but you can refer to a white dude as “articulate” without additional baggage.
MisterForkbeard
@tobie:
It’s pretty clear that Omar meant to talk about what’s wrong with our foreign policy but phrased it problematically. She thinks that she’s being told she HAS to be deferent to Israel as a member of Congress. Which is kind of true, but talking about “allegiance” is what made it an unacceptable comment.
Sab
@Another Scott: thanks.
jl
They’re still going through with this charade? It is a charade, since far worse GOP bigotry slid by with nothing. And Dems explicitly chickened out of a resolution on Steve King. McCarthy was dong far worse anti-Semitic attacks on Soros, and after Soros was targeted by attempted terror bombing.
Any mention of conflation of right wing Israeli politics, Israel itself, and worldwide (or US) Jewish community for cynical political purposes?
Peale
@tobie: @tobie: AIPAC is the bugbear ON this issue. Plus Sheldon Adelson. Sheldon Adelson is a specific donor to Republicans who gave over $100 million and he’s not giving that over because he wants casinos protected or hates environmental regulations. Even at that, Adelson only comes up in terms of this issue and isn’t like Soros who gets linked to every liberal cause on the right. Ten years ago, it was the Koch brothers, Pete Peterson and Eli Broad, none of whom were involved in pro-Israel policies per se..
Brachiator
Funny how Trump and Putin seem to reinforce one another.
tobie
@MisterForkbeard: She’s an adult. She’s responsible for what she posts on twitter just like anyone else. In fact she’s held to a higher standard because she’s a member of Congress. She could have walked this back and explained that she was responding to the restrictions imposed on free speech regarding BDS. Or highlighted the evils of the settlements and the Gaza blockade. All that would be welcome. But for many Jews, the single-minded focus on a Jewish cabal controlling US foreign policy sounds like a revival of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
FlipYrWhig
@MisterForkbeard: This. What she’s complaining about, IMHO rightly, is that all members of Congress are expected to toe the line of supporting Israel no matter what they do. The people being compelled to display “allegiance” are _Congressional Representatives_, not Jews. That’s not even an antisemitic “trope”! The only reason why this is even coming up is that she earlier attached blame to lobbyists’ money, which was similarly twisted into something like “Jewish money” instead. I find the whole thing to be both bizarre and to confirm her very complaint. It strikes me as a genuine case of “political correctness” run amok. It’d be like if someone had said that Kim Jong Un had outsmarted Trump and then got pilloried for using “orientalist tropes.”
LivinginExile
I called Ilhan Omars office in Washington today to say I didn’t think she had said anything out of line. I told the guy I talked to about a gop rep from the district that I live in that was kneecapped by aipac. His name is Paul Findley, and he wrote a book “They dared to speak out”. He dared to suggest that Palestinians are people too. A senator from Illinois, Charles Percy, also pissed off aipac and they recruited Paul Simon to run against Percy. They helped fill Simons’ war chest. Percy lost. Neither of these politicians were nut job Israel haters, all they did was advocate for a more even-handed approach.
Gin & Tonic
@MisterForkbeard:
Where “kind of” means “completely.” Please name a member of Congress who has been publicly critical of Israeli government policy or of the US’ support of Israel without being called an anti-Semite. I’m coming up blank, but this isn’t an issue I follow as closely as others.
tobie
@FlipYrWhig: Who tells her this:
These are her words. And the implication is that she’s told this because someone or some groups have the entire Democratic caucus under their thumbs. This is classic anti-Semitism. Wink, wink, there’s a cabal of Jews running everything. Glad to know so many of you are a-okay with this. It’s been illuminating.
West of the Rockies
@geg6:
So awesome! You must be crazy proud.
Mandalay
@tobie:
Well in a similar vein, given all that has been said since Trump became president, I’m just stunned that the leadership of the Democratic Party chose to single out a black Muslim woman who is a Democrat in Congress.
Without remotely justifying the treatment of Japanese Americans during WW II, you are comparing apples with oranges. We were at war with Japan, but Israel is a very cozy ally.
What wording can you suggest that would be better for Omar to use? (If you think she is not entitled to even raise the issue – as some have suggested – then we have nothing to discuss.)
West of the Rockies
@Mandalay:
She does throw her teammates into the oncoming zombie horde.
MisterForkbeard
@tobie:
That’s certainly “a” implication, but also very much not the one I took from it.
EDIT: To be clear, the implication is that someone told her that she had to support Israel and its policies. It does not say the “entire” democratic caucus says this, and she doesn’t say Jews are behind it either. She’s literally just saying that there are people in this country that say support of Israel is a core american value.
Don’t impute meaning which isn’t necessarily there.
Brachiator
@tobie:
You really have to huff and puff and strain to read it this way.
Bullshit. Japanese Americans were falsely accused of being loyal to Japan, period. Not divided loyalties. It was presumed that because they were not white, they could not be loyal to America. And this conclusion was reached without anyone ever producing any evidence that any Japanese American had spoken of dual or divided loyalties. German Americans were not automatically suspected of being disloyal to the US.
On the other hand, white racists suppressed Jewish Americans’ concerns about the awful rise of anti-Jewish laws and actions in Germany by holding the lie of dual loyalties and “cosmopolitanism” over their heads.
The concern and controversy about Omar is largely bullshit, and people are still exaggerating, twisting her words, and making false historical analogies to keep the shit flowing.
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan:
LMAO!
Mandalay
@MisterForkbeard: OK, got it. Thanks.
But it seems to me that no matter what Omar says she’s going to be accused of being anti-Semitic. In general, as soon as someone challenges any aspect of the US-Israel relationship it appears to automatically hair trigger the accusation of anti-semitism.
Omar was also very critical of the US-Saudi Arabia relationship recently, and nobody said a thing.
tobie
@Mandalay: You obviously have not read what I posted so I’ll paste it here:
or
There are plenty of ways to make the case that the US should not support Israel in the way it does. But to start by saying that we are not allowed to discuss any of this because of a secret cabal dictating US foreign policy is trafficking in stereotypes with a long–and murderous–track record.
eemom
@tobie:
Speaking of zombie hordes, good luck trying to reason with this crowd.
Please know the effort is admirable and appreciated by your fellow dwellers in three dimensional reality.
Gin & Tonic
@Brachiator:
Not directly on-point, but during WWI, people incorrectly assumed to be “German” were suspected of being disloyal to Canada and were “interned” in camps in Alberta. The kicker is they were not actually German.
MisterForkbeard
@Mandalay: Oh, sure. I agree with you there. Israel has a hugely outsized influence on our foreign policy, given their relatively paltry lobbyist dollars and their current record of human rights offenses. And criticism of Israel is frequently conflated with anti-semitism.
The thing is, you CAN be critical of Israel if you’re careful about it. Obama did this a few times, basically telling Netanyahu he was full of shit. And the right yelled about it but the media basically left it alone because he chose his words with care.
I like Omar. I hope she takes this as a learning experience on how to approach the subject, because she’s got a lot to contribute there.
@eemom: Get off your high horse. There are literally people here having decent conversations about this RIGHT NOW, as well as people yelling about it.
@tobie:
If she had said this, you might have a point. And this is from someone who thinks she definitely fucked up her statement. But you’re adding a huge amount of meaning that isn’t there.
guachi
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again:
You can’t criticize Israel or you get accused of being anti-Semitic.
Look at Gillibrand’s awful statement. You can’t talk about Israel’s influence on American politics because taking about Jews influencing anyone is off limits.
It’s a joke of an argument and people who make that argument are jokes.
Gin & Tonic
@tobie:
Genuinely curious: who has done that effectively in Congress in the last couple of decades?
eemom
@Mandalay: @Mandalay:
Ding ding ding! Congrats on being the thousandth person to trot out this ridiculous straw man in the last three days.
Even if it’s true, how exactly does it justify saying something that IS overtly anti-Semitic?
MisterForkbeard
Bleah, I can see why Republicans seized on this as a wedge issue. Here we are all arguing about it, and I think most of us even agree that the U.S. is too deferential to Israel in its foreign policy.
We’re just arguing about language and whether or not what she said was intentionally anti-semitic or could just have conceivably been construed as an anti-semitic trope. We aren’t enemies here. >_<
Betty Cracker
@tobie: I think Omar inadvertently tripped up by using the word “allegiance” — even though she was referring to lawmakers rather than Jewish people. It’s a super loaded word because of the history of Jews being “otherized” all over the world; I get that. I don’t understand the problem with the sentence below that you seem to find self-evidently offensive:
It doesn’t strain credulity at all to believe she gets butt-loads of hate mail that says just that. I don’t think she’s invoking a shadowy cabal that controls everything. What am I missing?
Brickley Paiste
āI do not believe that she understood the full weight of the words,ā House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says about Rep. Ilhan Omarās controversial comments on Israel.
It’s time for Nancy Smash to lower the boom on this asshole.
What are we on, day 5 or 6 of this being a story? Apparently the first private chat with Omar did not get the message across so Pelosi need to do whatever is necessary to make this ignorant twit understand the news cycle.
tobie
@Brachiator: No huffing and puffing. Her tweets were all about restrictions on her speech (irony noted). She could have made an affirmative case for restricting aid or sale of various weaponry systems to Israel. That would have moved minds. It’s something I would have welcomed and I imagine she would have been able to get set several colleagues to back her on this. I’m sorry she didn’t go this route.
A Ghost To Most
@Mandalay: Gillibrand being Gillibrand, I’m sure she weighed both sides carefully, and chose the path that served her ambition best.
eemom
@Gin & Tonic:
Further brilliance.
Again, even if that’s true, what Omar has done is the opposite of making that case effectively.
Rant on all you want with your facile, beside the point bullshit to the effect that “oh, ANYBODY who criticizes Israel is gonna be called anti-Semitic.” How does parroting dog whistles that indisputably ARE anti-Semitic help the cause of rational debate about Israel? Seems to me it’s playing right the fuck into the hands of those who want to suppress that discussion.
And if I hear “oh, she didn’t UNDERSTAND it was anti-Semitic” one more time, I am seriously gonna puke.
FlipYrWhig
@tobie: “This implication that I impute to her words after paraphrasing them makes them super antisemitic,” then? What is this, the commutative property of antisemitism? This is partly why calling things “tropes” is so frustrating. Saying that the word “allegiance” in proximity to “Jews” raises certain associations kind of falls apart when someone else has to supply the word “Jews” and then make it proximate.
raven
@geg6: Adrenaline is a mofo
The Midnight Lurker
Nancy Pelosi at her weekly press conference today: “I don’t think that the congresswoman perhaps appreciates the full weight of how it was heard by other people, although I don’t believe it was intended in any anti-Semitic way.”
Money, money, money! MooooooneeeeeeeeY!
Sab
@eemom: What did she say that was overtly (or not overtly) anti-semitic? Lots of people are saying she did, but when I see the tape I just don’t see it.
Martin
@tobie:
Is it in reference to American Jews or is it in reference to political campaigning and in self-policing that happens inside of the caucus? In a sense, you’re hitting on the point yourself:
How much pressure is on Democratic members of Congress to toe the line in order to get campaign contributions? We know it exists for the GOP (often not coming from the Jewish community at all, but from the evangelical community), and we criticize them over that, but to what extent does that happen inside the Democratic party as well? There’s been plenty of criticism here and elsewhere in the Democratic party of Schumer over his lack of criticism for Israels actions. His appearances at AIPAC aren’t exactly speaking truth to power, either.
Omar is saying nothing about domestic policies related to American Jews, and at every turn she seems to be supportive of domestic policies that the Jewish community supports. That said, even Democrats seem to invent a different set of rules when it comes to foreign policy with respect to Israel and it does not seem that anyone can sustain a critical voice on Israels policies within Congress in much the same way nobody could question the US policy toward Cuba for so many years, or a Republican questioning the NRA. It’s an odd thing. It doesn’t match the usual patterns of debate within our politics which suggests that there’s an undercurrent of control that we don’t understand. That could be from within the caucus or it could be how campaign dollars flow, or what have you – essentially dynamics that we are not supposed to see.
Read her quote again:
She is not accusing you or anyone else of having a dual allegiance. She is asserting that others (unnamed) are demanding that members of congress have one. That is not a new dynamic. That is one we have seen for some time. In the case of the GOP, we can see instances where that dynamic is the result of perhaps two individuals – Adelsons, or Kochs. And Israel need not be the beneficiary. For the Kochs it’s the energy industry. For the NRA the gun manufacturers. It was tobacco a few decades ago. It’s coal if you’re from certain states. I suspect the critique here is not of a population of people but how excessive influence of money in politics distorts policy to appear that way. You should be angry about that. Is Sheldon Adelson representative of American Jews, because the sheer scale of his campaign contributions puts his personal wants on the same level as the entire rest of the Jewish community, yet Republicans speak as if they are representing the entirety of the Jewish community because they cannot possibly say that their policies are to appease Sheldon. One person has co-opted the entire community against their will. I have a hard time believing the same thing doesn’t happen in other areas. Yes, Democrats may be better insulated from it, but I don’t think they are immune by any means.
tobie
@Gin & Tonic: Betty McCollum has done it, and I would venture that the Progressive Caucus might have gone along with (a) questions about the constitutionality of the BDS resolution, (b) motions to block the sale of certain jet fighters to Israel used in bombing Gaza, (c) resolutions (plural) condemning settlement expansions, and (d) a resolution condemning moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem. Congress has changed. We’re in a position where we can now question certain policies. My point has been throughout all this that we’re spending all this time talking about the American Jewish community and its influence rather than on our actual foreign policy in the Middle East in general and Israel and Palestine in particular.
Gin & Tonic
@eemom: You could have just answered my question, I suppose.
ETA: As tobie actually did, for which I thank him/her.
And I’ll note that editing my comment will screw up my nym. Oh well.
FlipYrWhig
This probably isn’t going to help but IMHO The Real Reason why Israel is treated with kid gloves is that a lot of liberal American Jews want it that way, and Democrats in the DC-to-Boston corridor and Florida like to keep them happy and voting for Democrats. Is that an antisemitic “trope” too?
(In case it matters, my mother’s side of the family is secular Jews in the classic DC/NY/FL nexus.)
MisterForkbeard
@Betty Cracker: This.
@Brickley Paiste: Also this. Regardless of the merits of her arguments Omar ran facefirst into a bad PR wall and could have closed this up relatively neatly a few days ago. Criticizing Israel is frankly a minefield in this country, and some of that is for good reason. It requires care when speaking about its influence.
eemom
@Betty Cracker:
Betty, I think you’re an awesome writer and I have great respect for you, unlike these other clowns.
Please tell me where in God’s name you get the idea that she parroted not one, but at least three well known Jew-bashing slurs “inadvertently”. And that last one, AFTER people had explained this shit to her out the wazoo at least twice before and she apologized for it.
tobie
@eemom: Can I come sit next to you? It’s getting lonely on this blog.
More seriously, folks, I’ve got to go to dinner with mr. tobie to celebrate my birthday and then it’s off to a weekend conference. Have a good weekend.
FlipYrWhig
@MisterForkbeard:
Say, maybe it would help if a politician would raise this as an issue! ;) :/
sharl
Louie’s coming through for you! He’s quite reliable in matters like this.
A reporter in Texas who works the state politics beat asks for understanding:
eemom
@tobie:
I wouldn’t have piped up at all if it weren’t for you. That’s how sick I am of this ignorant bullshit.
Happy Birthday, and have a wonderful dinner!
CarolDuhart2
@eemom: Its because she’s an immigrant, and unaware of the tropes. Also she’s being bashed daily just because she’s not a House Muslim that is ashamed/defensive about her heritage. The people who are telling her that aren’t Jews (mostly) but right wingers offended that she’s there, regardless of what she says. If she says nothing, they accuse her of being a secret supporter of Sharia who’s hiding her opinions. And no matter what she says, she can’t win.
Mandalay
@eemom: Jesus Christ, you are so fucking needy. You have to make this thread all about you.
Brickley Paiste
@eemom:
What were the other two? I haven’t followed this that closely.
Pelosi knows how to use words. Her statement translates as “The stupid asshole is ignorant of American history and the sordid history of the dual allegiance slur but in her heart of heart she’s not anti-semitic” does sort of strain credulity. I mean, how does a member of congress decide to wade into the well-plowed ground of Israel’s oversize influence on American politics and just happen to use one of the most charged terms? What a co-inky-dink!
It is kind of interesting to read people who generally worship Pelosi take issue with her about this.
chopper
@Betty Cracker:
i dunno. i’ve talked to a number of fellow jews about this and we’re all “(shrug) i dunno, it could go either way” about it. her statement was definitely not enough to raise much ire. which is why there’s a good deal of side-eye regarding the reaction out of so many others who have decided to take on the mantle of ‘defender of the jewish people’ in this situation.
Sab
Jeffrey Goldberg, editor of the Atlantic Magazine, actually served in the Israeli Defense Forces. That’s a fact . That is also mixed allegience.
David Brooks son served in the IDF. That’s a fact . That’s also mixed allegiance for the kid, and problematic for the father.
Who else in American journalism or government served or had kids serve in foreign governments armies and didn’t meet shrieks of divided loyalties? What makes Israel so special? I can’t think of serving in another countries military that wouldn’t endanger your American citizenship.
That was posibly OK when Israel was a dependable ally, but it has been at least a decade since that was the case. Netanyahu’s government is corrupt to the core, riddled with Russian organized crime. This isn’t the spunky Israel of the 3 day war.
gene108
@Wapiti:
Nope. No questioning Israel on anything. Period.
Any question raised will be deemed equal to Hitler’s statements on Jews.
Both Israel and the U.S. have lost the plot, in the 21st century, with regards to a fair and lasting peace between Israel and Palestine. There was some hope in the 1990’s, after the Oslo Accords, but enthusiasm waned after Rabin’s assassination for more bold actions to finally bring a lasting peace.
And now the Likud Party has tentacles into the evangelical / Republican circles, and some Democrats, like Vargas.
Shumer’s different, in my opinion, because there are some folks, who are – no matter what the Israel lobby does, with regards to lobbying and fundraising – think Israel should be protected first and foremost. And I think that’s just Shumer’s natural default position on Israel.
tl;dr: Questioning Israel, in anyway, will not be accepted.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: when you say, “treated with kid gloves”, are you being specific about Dems? Because I think (how do you measure these things?) the Fundies are probably far more influential wrt Israel with Republicans. Our Secretary of State speaks positively about the rapture, and if I have a hard time imagining George W Bush saying things like Pompeo does, especially when other members of his family are around, I’m sure he listens eagerly when the sort of Bible bangers he likes bring it up. I suspect in at least this regard, Bibi and Sheldon Adelson and the Mikes Pompeo and Huckabee regard each other as useful idiots, with contemptuous if affectionate amusement on both sides.
and I don’t think we’d be here, I don’t think what she said about “allegiance” — and she was clearly talking about AIPAC, not all Jews, not all American Jews– would be perceived as such a dog-whistle is she hadn’t felt compelled to make a glib, hip ‘owning’ tweet about “the Benjamins”. There’s a place for being cute and glib and owning your adversaries on twitter, I/P isn’t it. Which brings me back to my new 2020 candidate, Jan Schakowsky: Everybody stop tweeting.
catclub
Why is this interesting? It is about going after Foreign agent registration (or ignoring thereof). which is fine.
But the meeting was in New Orleans the day after MardiGras. Either they took advantage of everyone leaving and lower hotel/convention rates.
OR they made sure to get to New Orleans for mardigras but do it on business. I usually fly into a new city the day before my meeting. Maybe they are more experienced road warriors.
Brachiator
@eemom:
I totally agree. But then again, I have no patience for all the people who felt that they needed to correct her, chastise her, and explain history to her over something relatively trivial and totally unintentional. Especially when we have outright bigots openly spouting racist and white nationalist bullshit.
Martin
@FlipYrWhig: I think it’s more complicated than that. There are definitely times when it feels more like compensation for our support for Saudi Arabia. How can we not help Israels defense given the volume of money we dump into a nation that funds attacks against them. We don’t dare criticize Israels actions because we can’t bring ourselves to stand up to Saudi Arabia. None of that comes from either the Jewish or Evangelical community – it comes from our own political weakness. And, if Obama wanted to bring Iran back into the fold, then Israel deserves support to ensure that they aren’t the victims should that go wrong.
There are a ton of non-religious, typical geopolitical reasons for much of what we do wrt Israel. We do the same with South Korea and parts of Eastern Europe, and other places. Of course there are groups that are sympathetic to other aspects of Israels existence, from religious to protection of the Jewish populace, but that’s true for any community. I have neighbors that still despise the Democratic party because Carter supported the One China policy and they saw that as an existential threat to their relatives in Taiwan. I don’t see that they have any more or less right to lobby on behalf of Taiwan as any other group.
But what’s odd about Israel is that for whatever reason (and I don’t pretend to know why) it’s unacceptable within Congress to have a critical view toward Israeli policy – even for really obvious things that you would expect one party or the other to be opposed to – that isn’t paralleled for any other country right now. There is some other dynamic at work here that we don’t understand. Maybe there is some secret national security information that explains why this is, or maybe there is a dynamic similar to the GOP where this is simply not allowed. I don’t know.
But I find it odd that people think that an openly Muslim US Representative that wears a hijab wouldn’t understand the accusation of dual loyalty, particularly the same week that the WV GOP is accusing her of being supportive of the 9/11 plot. The Jewish community is far from exclusive to that slur. FFS, half the country was afraid that Kennedy’s loyalty would be to the Pope, something that had to be addressed during the campaign. I think her use of that phrase was much more precise than the people accusing her.
chopper
to me the evangelical/israel thing is always going to be one of the greatest ironies in american politics.
that these guys will so quickly accuse critics of israel of anti-semitism, while their own dogma envisions an end times fantasy where the jews are literally horribly and painfully wiped off the face of the earth, will always amaze me. that they continue to get away with this out in the open is even crazier.
Adam Geffen
@Mandalay:
I’m thinking out loud here so bear with me… what about if Omar had criticized Likud and/or Netanyahu directly for their hard-right wing policies? E.g.: In accord with our founding principles of freedom and democracy the United States should stand in opposition to the policies of the Likud party and Netanyahu. We should support . Etc. Etc.
Now, ~some~ amount of the outrage has certainly been disingenuous. Which probably means even if she had managed to avoid antisemitic tropes in a critique of Likud policy she would have been attacked anyway. But maybe it wouldn’t have caused as much an issue for the left. Maybe?
The notion has been bandied about that AIPAC has too much influence, for some definition of influence. I’ve been thinking about that and I wonder if I can get some help thinking through some stuff? I’m led to wonder how much influence would be OK for AIPAC to have? Or how much influence should Jews generally have? Or what about other groups, how much influence should LGBT people have?
For the record, I’m queer and Jewish. Personally, I think LGBT people and Jews and Queer Jews should have as much influence as possible. ;) Is influence even the right lens to use in thinking about this? Why haven’t leftist Jewish groups (like J Street) been more successful in shifting the frame of the discussion about Likud-Israel?
Gin & Tonic
@catclub: I used to go to NoLa pretty often on business, and if there’s one time of year I absolutely positively avoided it was Mardi Gras.
Ohio Mom
@tobie: I just got here (you have probably already left to celebrate your birthday). I hear you and completely agree with you.
And I am a Jew who usually rolls her eyes when my coreligionists cry āantisemitism,ā because typically they are missing the point ā for one small example, Louis Farrakhan. Heās pathetic and not worth a momentās thought.
I also fret that the American Jewish establishment spends too much time on Israel and not enough time on developing a meaningful contemporary observance and building real community.
The irony of this entire discussion is that a major force pushing for US support for Israel are those absolutely awful white evangelicals. Everyone here probably already knows that these right-wingers think they need all Jews in Israel so the world can end and they can be raptured. I havenāt heard that Omar called them out, however.
catclub
@Sab:
1. was Israel a reliable ally in 1967 when they tried to sink the USS Liberty?
2.Ilhan did not object to variable allegiances of others. She objected to being expected to have allegiance to Israel.
3. Our Anti-espionage briefings bring up both Chinese as well as Israeli heavy handed attempts to steal NASA secrets.
Not so much UK, Germany, or France. Allies, what a concept.
zhena gogolia
new thread please
guachi
Politicians who accept money from Israeli lobbying groups need to be slammed for being anti-Semitic.
If you accept money from them then you are perpetuating stereotypes about Jews and money.
Adam Geffen
The speed with which people comment here is hard to keep up with. *wince* In the time I managed to cobble together a comment there were like 40 more comments some of which touch on similar points to mine.
Martin
@Adam Geffen: Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing went away long ago. John Cole Challenges You To Get A Word In Edgewise is where it’s at now.
eemom
@Mandalay:
That’s the best you’ve got? Um, ok.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam Geffen: It takes a laser-like focus and single-minded dedication to be a commenter.
catclub
@zhena gogolia: not even half way to a Tbogg. But still tiresome.
A Ghost To Most
@Ohio Mom: Thanks for this. Paul Waldman in WaPo has a couple of columns in a similar vein.
Also, I become more convinced daily that BrickleyPaiste is BorisInPutinland.
catclub
@Martin:
so please note that Obama did make massive increases in … support to Israel. Not by accident.
chopper
@catclub:
this is true. she basically said ‘why is it that i, as a member of the US congress, am expected to have allegiance to israel?’ i see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement, even if it uses the magic word ‘allegiance’, given that there’s really not a better word she could have used IMO. it’s a loaded word to be sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s so loaded you can’t use it in any other context.
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Right, I guess I meant among Democrats — liberal pro-Israel Jews have been a prominent interest group for three quarters of a century.
I think you’re right that the sketchy part is saying, or hinting, that American politicians support Israel for the money; I think on the center-left it’s probably more about votes than money. IMHO it was still a quip about powerful moneyed lobbies rather than powerful moneyed Jews, and I really truly don’t think this second brouhaha had anything to do with antisemitism or “antisemitic tropes” at all.
Also, I hate the word “tropes.”
A Ghost To Most
@eemom: If you looking for offense, it is easy to find.
Lewis Abernathy
@Gin & Tonic:
Jazz Fest is cooler.
Brachiator
@trollhattan:
Great stuff. There are people doing a frame by frame analysis of the GoT trailer, trying to divine the intentions behind Cersei sipping her wine.
eemom
@Adam Geffen:
Thanks again for sharing the link to Ellen Willis’ 2003 essay the other night; and more generally, making me aware of her unique, brilliant, tragically lost life and work. I wish she were more widely known.
Dave
@chopper: The fact that we barely blink an eye that we have a faction that has an end times fantasy that involves the death and torture of everyone who isn’t in that faction, and that faction has significant influence in our foreign and domestic policy, is itself sufficiently bonkers to make me want to drink heavily.
lamh36
Steve King, seriously using Diamond and Silk as “I ain’t a white racist ” character references.
https://twitter.com/stevekingia/status/1103780180315774978
Mike in DC
Omar voted for the resolution. 26 Republican congressmen did not.
A Ghost To Most
@Adam Geffen: Wait until some TBOGG event occurs. Things slow down, and the comments pile up. This is a minor spat.
A Ghost To Most
@Mike in DC:
Eyes on our real enemies, please.
Sab
@catclub: I agree with you. I was trying to put a good spin on it. Of course I remember the Liberty. They were otherwise a good ally at the time.
I didn’t hear her objecting to various allegiances. I heard her objecting to foreign allegiances. She gave up her native born country to become American. She is a natruralized citizen. I bet she feels these loyalties (that she actually has sworn to, repeatedly) a lot more than we American born citizens.
We deal with lots of other countries. That doesn’t mean I want our kids serving in their armies and coming home professing to be patriots.
I have Asian American nephews. They always knew they would have to choose a country. That’s life.
tybee
@eemom: i note you don’t answer any of the questions raised. why is that?
debbie
@Sab:
Goddamn it. Another email will have to be sent.
MisterForkbeard
@Dave: Right there with you on that one. >_<
Jim, Foolish Literalist
somebody smart on my TeeVee is gonna ask why there was no congressional resolution about Birtherism, right?
Without looking, I guessed who the then-MoC now Senator is… Can you?
Adam Geffen
@eemom:
Re Ellen Willis, you are welcome. :)
debbie
@BC in Illinois:
Back in the 1980s, Israeli leaders were accusing the American Jewish community of not being sufficiently loyal to Israel, even as they were dismissing American Jews as insufficiently Jewish, biologically speaking.
eemom
@tybee:
What question was asked of me that I did not answer?
Adam Geffen
@A Ghost To Most:
TBOGG?
debbie
@Kraux Pas:
Disagree. Steve King should have been named and shamed.
Sab
@tybee: eemom has never been striking in her intellectual honesty.
Kay thinks she’s passionate.
I think she’s deceitful and manipulative. But that’s just me.
tybee
@eemom: perhaps you should read the comments replying to you.
chopper
@Adam Geffen:
five hundo comments.
Jay
3 days ago, from a Democratic Party Representative,
ā
Rep. Juan Vargas
@RepJuanVargas
It is disturbing that Rep. Omar continues to perpetuate hurtful anti-Semitic stereotypes that misrepresent our Jewish community. Additionally, questioning support for the U.S.-Israel relationship is unacceptable. (1/2)
10:27 AM Ā· Mar 4, 2019 Ā· Twitter Web Client
3.5K
Retweets
11K
Likesā
The last sentence is the kicker.
And morons were wondering whom perhaps were telling her that regularly.
Sab
@eemom: Bunch of them, so far. His, mine, other peoples.
Adam Geffen
@FlipYrWhig:
“Also, I hate the word ātropes.ā” ~sad face~ The word infected my brain in graduate school (for history) and I just can’t give it up. I also fell in love with m-dashes. ;)
rikyrah
@geg6:
?????
Archon
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens if a left-wing power ever gets back into power in Israel. I suspect current right-wing Evangelical support is more ideological and political then it is religious.
A Ghost To Most
@Adam Geffen: A former commenter of great wit. He writes for rawstory now. A TBOGG unit is 500+ comments.
debbie
@Another Scott:
I was yelling at the radio through that entire interview! Her attitude is exactly what’s ripping the Jewish community apart.
debbie
@trollhattan:
Colbert opened with a GOT (actually SOT) bit on last night’s show.
Adam Geffen
@A Ghost To Most:
“A TBOGG unit is 500+ comments.”
I love that. :-)
I have a new life aspiration. Never mind getting my master’s thesis accepted for publication, I need my name associated with a large unit of comments. ;-)
debbie
@geg6:
The real Captain Marvel!
A Ghost To Most
@Adam Geffen: Be careful what you wish for.
It’s way tamer than when I arrived in 2005, but it still can get rough. And slow.
burnspbesq
@eemom:
If youāre defending Israel, or defending Israelās American defenders, youāre on the wrong side of the issue. Period, full stop. Disguising it as concern over tone-deafness isnāt working. Neither is pretending that the criticism of Rep. Omar isnāt racist, misogynistic, and Islamophobic.
Your position is all fucked up. Reconsider.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I took her to be comparing AIPAC to NRA, and I don’t disagree. Both lobbies have far too much influence in this country and in our government.
Adam Geffen
@A Ghost To Most:
I’ve been lurking since about 2011. I have seen how spicy it can get. I’ll try to hold my own. :)
FlipYrWhig
@Adam Geffen: I learned it in grad school too but I didn’t learn it as meaning “commonplaces” and/or “building blocks,” which it has since evolved to mean, as e.g. “TV Tropes.” Feh on that.
A Ghost To Most
@burnspbesq:
I agree. Wait, what?
Adam Geffen
@FlipYrWhig:
Fair enough. :)
debbie
@FlipYrWhig:
No, not liberal American Jews. It’s the politically conservative Jewish community and Orthodox Jewish community. Now aided by the Christian Evangelicals.
Gin & Tonic
I am fucking dying of suspense here waiting for the Manafort sentencing.
Adam Geffen
@FlipYrWhig:
What did you study? Me: law and history (JD/MA) US and English legal and constitutional history, colonial North America, antebellum African American history especially in Michigan and Detroit.
Ivan X
I don’t know why I bother to wade in here, but maybe it’s just for me to try to summarize my own complex, conflicting thoughts. I’m a Jewish American, with pretty typical mainstream liberal positions, and I’m pro-Israel-existence but hardly pro everything they do, like behave with cruelty and at this point nihilism to the Palestinians.
I spent a fair bit of time in an earlier thread from a few days ago arguing with commenters saying what to me were obviously anti-Jewish things, couched as anti-Israel things. I’m not convinced they knew they were blowing dog whistles, just as any racist will surely claim they’re not racist, but they were completely uninterested in knowing that was how was how I received their comments, instead telling me that I was conflating in bad faith.
I get that some people operate from an absolutist Israel-be-damned position. It alarms me (as does absolutism of the Israel-is-always-right or Israel-is-all-that-matters sort). I think it’s simplistic and unfair, but Israel has not helped their cause. With that said, as one of the reasonable commenters said (I paraphrase), the one constant is that Jews need a homeland. Too bad it’s in that part of the world, but it is what it is. I feel this way, and it’s hard for me to stomach the kind of Israel-is-entirely-evil rhetoric of many on the left. I also agree with what another commenter said that Israel would be no big deal if there was more than one Jewish country. But it’s the only one. So it’s a big deal. At least to me.
I think conflation exists, and is used in both good faith and bad faith ways. Israel is inherently tied to Jews — look at their flag. It’s a conflation. I don’t think you can pretend to talk about Israel without also acknowledging that you’re talking about Jews. I don’t think you can talk about Jews without also acknowledging the meaning of Israel in their lives.
I think Jews have good reason to be hypersensitive. When the likes of Steve Bannon or Steven Miller (!) are in positions of influence, you start checking to see what the requirements for being an Israeli citizen are. I don’t think dire times for Jews are coming in this country, but I wouldn’t absolutely rule them out either. I’m always on alert, and I think many other Jews are too.
Sure, maybe this is holocaust PTSD, and maybe that allows us to rationalize things in Israel that we would damn in other countries. But that doesn’t make it not our real experience, and, in my opinion, a completely unfounded one. Why do synagogues in Europe (and sometimes here) require multiple security guards, metal detectors, and entry points? Exclusively because of Israel? I don’t think it can be denied that some people just don’t like Jews, don’t want Jews around them, and, in some cases, will demonstrate malice towards Jews. Inevitably, these people are anti-Israel.
So it is hard for me to entirely separate the people and religion from the country. Obviously, one can be critical of Israeli policy and Israeli actions without being anti-Semitic, but I’m always going to be suspcious and listen very carefully to how it’s expressed. Anything that smacks of Jewish conspiracy is a red alert for me. An obsessive focus on Israel without consideration for other democratic countries that treat their minority populations atrociously (France, anyone?) is another.
I don’t get the concern of of “Democrats beating up their own dark muslim woman while staying silent about the Republican scum saying the same things.” Obviously Republicans say awful racist antisemitic things all the time. We just accept it. That’s what they do. They’re the worst. The point is that our side is supposed to rise above that. That’s what makes use better.
I have read Omar’s statements multiple times but I just don’t hear the anti-Semitism. I just don’t. “Allegiance,” if it’s is a whistle, I can’t hear it. I don’t think her sentiments ring false.I’ll be the first to say that I’m reflexively suspicious of her, because I’ve pretty much been programmed since birth to distrust Muslims, but that’s just prejudice and I try to acknowledge its unfortunate existence in myself, and set it aside when considering a situation. I think I’m trying to say that, in a way, that I *wanted* to hear the langauge that would confirm my innate bias against her. But I don’t hear it. I think what she said is legitimate.
And yes, I would rather she be pro-Israel, because I want Israel to exist, but you can’t always get what you want. She is a representative in a representative democracy, and she is representing a point of view, because that’s what you get, hopefully, in a representative democracy — differing points of view. It’s not always going to be the one you agree with, even in your own party (conflict is going to be inevitable in the kind of big tent parties you get in a two-party system).
But I get tobie’s feeling — I just don’t understand how she gets it from Omar’s language. If it had been a different whistle, I’m sure I would be saying much the same things (like I was when I was arguing with people here about the use of phrases like “Knesset West”).
That’s the whole thing about whistles — they’re not explicit, on purpose. And so inherently not every dog will hear them. I think we need to at least listen to those that do hear them, though, and respect that it’s their real experience. You can’t tell someone, I think, that their experience of hearing something as racist or anti-Semitic is invalid, just because you didn’t mean it that way. It’s possible to say racist and anti-Semitic things without meaning it.
I think the proposed BDS legislation in the Senate is gross and undemocratic. I disagree with BDS stances towards Israel, but it’s one of the tools of a democratic society. You can’t outlaw that.
And yes, I do look the other way on Israel in ways I wish I didn’t. I do accept an overly unvarying support of Israel from our leaders because I’d rather err in that direction than the other. I do worry about Israel’s existence, whether or not others think that position is merited. I do worry about a resurgence of anti-Semitism (and certainly other forms of racism, but naturally I’m probably most sensitive about my own culture/race/religion).
If you’re not Jewish, I don’t think you can tell American Jews how to feel about Israel. I think you’re entirely within bounds to speak whatever your feelings are about Israel’s actions, but not to frame that language in that of conspiracy. I’m not going to hear you. I’m going to hear “this is someone who knowingly or unknowingly doesn’t like Jews and so is singling out their country for criticism.”
I don’t think Omar is a problem.
I do think losing a third of our population less than a century ago makes us hypersensitive, but why wouldn’t it? And I’d prefer that critics of Israel try to work with that and understand it, rather than say “don’t be so sensitive.”
Ok that’s all. I apologize for the lack of cohesion, but I think this topic is inherently one of many conflicting forces, within and without.
Kathleen
@Ohio Mom: Count me in.
Kathleen
@geg6: That is so cool!!!
debbie
@Ivan X:
Did you give any thought that perhaps you were reading into their statements something other than what they were saying?
Adam Geffen
@Ivan X:
Thanks for that comment. You captured well so much of my own feelings.
debbie
@Ohio Mom:
Shockingly, he’s not on the “No” list.
Adam Geffen
@debbie:
“Did you give any thought that perhaps you were reading into their statements something other than they were saying?”
Would you say that to a gay person complaining about homophobic dog-whistles?
FlipYrWhig
@Adam Geffen: English literature for me.
eemom
@burnspbesq:
Piss off, burnsie.
Adam Geffen
@FlipYrWhig:
Did you have a focus within English literature?
debbie
@Adam Geffen:
Just because you call something X doesn’t make it X. That is my point.
Brachiator
@Ivan X: Thanks for your thoughtful post
Adam Geffen
@debbie:
~nods~ I get what your going for what I’m struggling with is that “we” (we being the left/progressives) don’t normally interrogate a minority’s reaction to anti-minority speech. If a Black person says X is a racist dog-whistle we don’t turn around and say well maybe that racist behavior/speech is all in your head.
FlipYrWhig
@debbie: But AFAICT the reason why *Democrats* can still get twisted into knots over Israel/Palestine is largely because of the tradition of “liberal Zionism” dating back a hundred years or more, and the importance of Jewish intellectuals and professionals as a political interest group especially in the Northeast. E.g. Louis Brandeis. Jewish liberals support Israel, ergo questioning Israel risks offending Jewish liberals, ergo Democratic politicians who get elected on the strength of the votes of Jewish liberals want to keep them happy. This isn’t corrupt, venal, sinister, or sneaky. But it’s why these sorts of controversies erupt on the center-left rather than being more readily glossed as right vs. left. YMMV.
Another Scott
@Ivan X: Thanks very much.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ivan X
@debbie: Yes, I did. I prefer to think positively of people, so that is where I start.
FlipYrWhig
@Adam Geffen: British pre-1900, more or less. Other than that I’ll stay behind a veil of ignorance in hopes that my professional and personal opinions don’t cross streams. ;)
A Ghost To Most
@Ivan X: Thoughtful comment. I don’t agree, but thanks.
Tribes suck. All tribes. And at this critical point in America, we all just need to be Americans, not hyphen-Americans.
Adam Geffen
And now that work meetings are finished it is time for dinner! nom nom nom. :)
Mike in DC
Omar needs to take a selfie with George Soros where she kisses him.on the cheek, for maximum wingnut head-explodey effect.
debbie
@Adam Geffen:
No, we don’t. Because most likely, it was a dog-whistle. That is not the same thing, though, as what’s being discussed here. If I can criticize my country and not be considered anti-American, why can’t someone criticize Israel and not be anti-Semitic?
JanieM
@debbie:
Wait a minute, I’m confused. Isn’t the “no” list only House members at this point? Or is there more than one list being discussed?
Jay
@Adam Geffen:
The reason why itās being āquestionedā is because of the whole Omar issue. People have taken her words, out of context, projected big time, to stoke fauxrage.
debbie
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, except liberal Jews have been the ones questioning Bibi’s actions and motives.
debbie
@JanieM:
Crap, long day. Sorry, you’re right.
Adam Geffen
@debbie:
Maybe Iām confused? I take as given that it is not per se antisemetic to critizise Israel. Indeed Israel under Likud rule is a dumpster fire of awful which breaks my heart.
However, Ivan X said that some of the comments here read as antisemetic dog whistles. I did not take him to mean that criticism of Israel was itself an antisemetic dog whistle.
FlipYrWhig
@debbie: I think the long tradition of thinking that American Jews = liberals = Zionism = lockstep support for Israel means that American politicians don’t think that much about the complexities and diversities of actual opinion.
Ivan X
@Adam Geffen: thanks Adam. I indeed did not mean to say that criticism of Israel inherently is anti-Semitic, and tried to take pains to say so. Oh well, what can ya do. Thanks for taking the time and care to hear me.
Adam Geffen
@Ivan X:
You are most welcome. I appreciated your comment.
debbie
@Adam Geffen:
You’ll find that others don’t differentiate as you have, both here and at AIPAC HQ.
Adam Geffen
@debbie:
~sigh~ fair enough.
Ohio Mom
@debbie: Because now that Iāve read more, I see that the vote was in the House.
Iām not even sure it goes to the Senate next, Maybe it is only a House thing?
ETA: I see this has already been addressed.
Ohio Mom
@Ivan X: You should comment more, that was very well thought out.
Ivan X
@Ohio Mom: thank you ā perhaps I will!
neldob
I just remember the reception Jimmy Carter’s book got (Palestine, Peace not Apartheid) and the Mearsheimer and Walt book in 2007. Both of those were excoriated, with accusations of antisemitism basically ending any discussion of the issues. The issues of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, settlements, etc. are not addressed. That seems to me what is happening now. Maybe it is time to address them or at least acknowledge them. Also, Omar is young and hasn’t imbibed the history of specific dog-whistles that I have.