The teens and young adults in my life know a slang term is toast when they hear it coming out of my mouth. (RIP, “bounce.”)
A similar dynamic may be at work when Chris Cillizza, the defective Basenji* of the Beltway set, finally stops spinning around and settles down to gnaw on a topic:
Why is it taking Bernie Sanders so long to release his taxes?https://t.co/NaqFAWzGDX pic.twitter.com/eV4LvDwRcA
— Chris Cillizza (@CillizzaCNN) April 5, 2019
Bernie Sanders has been running for president since 2015.
He has released a TOTAL of 2 pages of his tax returns.https://t.co/NaqFAWzGDX
— Chris Cillizza (@CillizzaCNN) April 5, 2019
"Sooner than later." — Bernie Sanders on releasing his tax returns.
(That was 39 days ago.)https://t.co/NaqFAWzGDX
— Chris Cillizza (@CillizzaCNN) April 5, 2019
The Trump effect: he's changing the rules for everyone.
The next president may not go AS FAR when it comes to norm breaking – but that person can still push boundaries further than past presidents, and claim they are still stopping short of what Trump has done https://t.co/2ggzl2o0zI
— Jonathan Tamari (@JonathanTamari) April 5, 2019
These tweets/retweet were all from this morning.
It’s counterintuitive, but in American politics, when the dimmer bulbs shine their light on a subject, that’s when the illumination becomes unbearable. I don’t think Sanders will be able to Trump his way out of this tax return thing.
My guess is the only embarrassing thing they’ll show is that Sanders is a millionayuh, which is off-brand but not a crime. Better to take those lumps now. Democratic Party presidential candidates, and those who play one on TV, show their taxes. Period.
Open thread!
*No disrespect intended toward Basenjis in general.
Roger Moore
I don’t think there’s anything especially embarrassing in Bernie’s taxes, but Jane’s are a whole other matter. She’s been earning a bunch of money from a sinecure at a Wilmerite think tank, and before that she was earning way to much for running their local community college into the ground. IIRC, she was investigated for malfeasance but not prosecuted. I’m sure there’s some very embarrassing stuff in there. It’s probably not criminal, but it sure won’t look good.
ETA: and to be incredibly pedantic, the ides of a 30 day month like April fall on the 13th, not the 15th.
Jane2
He’s dotting i’s! Crossing t’s! I like how his voice gets all tight when he barks, “Soon”. Now he’s saying April 15. I’ll believe it when I see it – he knows the people who vote for him don’t care.
lamh36
Posted this in the last open thread and don’t want it to get lost in the shuffle.
This happens a lot and yes it has happened here and yes it makes you an asshole.
Also too, this does not make us “anti-white” if we voice an opposition against the candidate du jour or disregarding white voters as some folks have done in here
Jeremy
Some of them are pretending he has already. Which is VERY creepy.
lamh36
Kamala on FIRE at NAN
Zifnab25
Appealing to Chris Cillizza when you want to sell a point is generally a mistake.
cough
rp
It’s fascinating that Trump and Sanders are two sides of the same coin, including on taxes: Trump is terrified of releasing them because they’ll show that he isn’t worth nearly as much as he claims, which would destroy his entire persona. We might think that’s not that big deal and that there’s no smoking gun, but to Trump’s narcissism I think it would be devastating. OTOH, Sanders is terrified of releasing his taxes because they’ll show that he’s worth far more than we think, which again would destroy his entire persona. And he’s made all that money while being a public servant.
A Ghost To Most
@lamh36: Try to remember that the reverse is true as well.
germy
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
His entire scam has been to offer himself as the last true socialist.
If he releases his tax returns he’s going to destroy that vision for exactly why you stated. He’s a do nothing, done nothing senator from an almost pearly white state, with a record to match so that vision is all he has. And his tax returns, as you suggest, I bet show nothing more than he believes in socialism about as much as anyone’s cat does. He’s all bs for BS.
catclub
@Roger Moore:
John Mccain also took advantage of that fact to put almost all the finances that would show up on tax forms in his wife’s name ( where they started out, in his case). No joint tax filing.
germy
The only times I’ve ever seen Bernie visibly uncomfortable are when he’s asked about his taxes. His face actually reddened when asked about them by Trevor Noah.
Every other situation, every other question, he’s got the lifelong politician’s gift for bluster. When it comes to the tax question, he tenses up and his voice gets tight. You can almost see his blood pressure rising.
lamh36
I’m sure most have already seen it, but ICYM:
And after watching this video…check out this article:
Women Candidates Have Fun Hobbies Too, They Just Don’t Get to Talk About Them https://www.vogue.com/article/2020-women-candidates-quirky-hobbies-intellect-too
Gelfling 545
@Jane2: I’m sure they don’t but he can’t expect to win the nomination with only his fan club.
germy
@Ruckus: Here’s the thing, though: Many of his fans are what we call “cosplay socialists” themselves. Trustfundies or highly-compensated techbros. Would they really be so offended by his wealth?
MisterForkbeard
@lamh36: Goddamn, Harris is just doing a fantastic job. There was a tweet a few days ago of a short clip of her talking about how excellent Unions are, and she nailed it. There was the right amount of intelligence, determination, and even a little weariness that just worked so well.
@Jeremy: I have Bernie-friendly friends who have told me that Bernie released his taxes in the last race, just like Hillary (Narrator: He did not). Of course, some of those same friends also love Tulsi Gabbard and are even now talking about how “Russia-Gate is an excuse for the deep state to destroy the internet!” (Narrator: It is not), so clearly they’re getting some weird-ass propaganda.
Gin & Tonic
@catclub: Judging by what little I saw from the two pages he released a couple of years ago, Wilmer’s been doing the same, taking advantage of the fact that Jane is about 8 years younger and placing everything in tax-advantaged (i.e. IRA-type) accounts. For as long as he was over 70 and she was (still is, for a little bit) under, this was something they could do.
germy
Meanwhile, it’s good to see some solidarity:
lamh36
someone said, that MSNBC showed almost the entire speech from Bernie and barely any of the speech from Kamala. they did the same thing yesterday I believe where they covered the majority of Pete’s speech and Beto’s
different-church-lady
1) This is the sight of someone who is full of shit realizing someone else is full of shit. It’s like a Kline bottle full of shit or something.
2) Cillizza sounds like someone really needy for attention on a nearly empty blog.
Barbara
@Zifnab25: No it isn’t. In fact, getting the Cillizza’s of the world to take notice of a candidate is quite important because it drives the overall general level of attention. Let me guess, you don’t really CARE whether Sanders releases his taxes, and “no response” will count as an agreement with that assumption. Okay?
Mary G
My theory of Wilmer’s taxes is that they don’t donate to charity .
Kay
It’s just weird that political media don’t see any issue with their dogged determination to get the tax returns of Democratic candidates, when they gave and give Trump a complete pass.
I’m glad Democrats are releasing their tax returns. I think it’s fair that they show them to the public. I just think it’s odd how it’s (now) accepted that these disclosure and due diligence requirements only apply to Democrats.
Well, we’ll know more about one side, anyway.
It reminds me a little of the Wikileaks theft and disclosure of only the Democrats emails. It was presented as “transparency” but it was exclusive to one side. An odd way to look at that issue, and not used in any other setting or sector. It’s always reciprocal in all other contexts. I’m retaining the reciprocity norm they’ve abandoned. It’s better. This new one makes no sense. It’s dumb.
MomSense
What do we know about what the Sanders were up to in 2008? Is he waiting until April 15th so ten years of taxes starts with 2009? I hate to be like this but he has really acted so strangely about his taxes.
different-church-lady
@MisterForkbeard: Sometimes I feel isolated. And then I hear about stuff like this and think if everyone out there is this nuts then I’m better off being isolated.
rikyrah
Love the Star Wars Meme
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3VK6pwUUAAl6RI.jpg
Ruckus
@germy:
No, they probably wouldn’t.
But they are as deluded as he is. A wealthy socialist? Talk about your contradictions.
chris
Open thread? Good, I’ll just put this here since everything else is borked.
Loving the new site. Screenshots: https://i.imgur.com/VujBpIA.png
https://i.imgur.com/Fm0ruQ6.png
Takes 2-3 minutes to load. Bottom left of screen shows “Waiting for b2a3m9g8.stackpathcdn.com”
No pictures except twitter and youtube.
Mildly infuriating for the last week.
Linux/Chrome. Also firefox.
cmorenc
My biggest problem with Sanders is that his talent is as a scold, not as a doer – a leader of a movement, not of a coalition, a charismatic who doesn’t play well with others, a pundit rather than a producer. Or, more succinctly a loud talker who carries a little stick – he’s got the Teddy Roosevelt thing backward..
Damien
@Zifnab25: I think you may have misread, because Betty isn’t “appealing to” Chris Cillizza, instead she’s referencing the fact he’s the hackiest hack whoever hacked to point out that the story on Bernie’s taxes has penetrated all the way out to the mainstream; we can argue a lot about who Cillizza is, but mainstream is a fair descriptor.
Bernie can justify all he wants, but he’s refused to release his tax returns, he voted against the Magnitsky Act, he released a plan to regulate the drug market which he claimed would save more money than the worth of the ENTIRE prescription drug market in America, his campaign had 600 pages of election finance violations (more than Donald Trump even); basically, he’s not a good candidate, even before we get into his erotica, honeymoon in the USSR, and who even knows what else is hiding in the shadows.
Sooooo…..yeah, I guess my point is that Betty wasn’t using Cillizza as an authority on anything other than being a mainstream hack, but there’s a lot more there there than I think you want to admit.
tobie
I’m so old that I looked at the picture of an almost neckless Sanders with those tweets and the first thing that came to mind was the line “Where’s your fucking neck” from the days of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Maybe we can revive the taunt for all candidates who don’t release their last 10 tax returns in full. “Where’s your fucking tax return” has a certain ring to it.
lamh36
@A Ghost To Most: meaning what exactly? I don’t recall the few folks of color who comment here going round saying folks who support XYZ candidate are “anti-Black”, but there HAVE been folks here who have called ANY opposition that discussed about privilege as “anti-white”
I could drop names, but I won’t.
The point is…in a commentariat that is predominantly not POC…when the few that are do voice something against something we consider problematic as it pertains to POC…that instead of telling us “oh well have you read…” or “you missed the context”…
How’s about we not ASSUME that us folks aren’t informed enough about whatever.
Brachiator
Yeah I want to see his damn tax returns. But it is symbolic, a matter of public trust. I don’t expect any great revelations, and certainly don’t give a shit whether he is a millionaire.
And Trump’s refusal makes the display of tax returns more essential Trump broke faith. He is also a crook. But that almost goes without saying.
ETA; Right wingers are strange. I’ve heard conservative talk show hosts mock California Governor Newsom for being from a wealthy background, falsely suggesting that he is somehow being dishonest when talking about raising taxes on upper income people. And yet these same dopes praise Trump for shady practices (“he’s a wealthy New York businessman, so of course he would be tough and bend rules to get his way”).
Kay
@MomSense:
I don’t think there’s anything bad in his taxes. He seems prickly on what he considers “personal” questions, which probably isn’t going to fly because Democrats are obviously going to leverage the comparison to Trump and how Trump has revealed nothing. People like transparency. State “sunshine” laws are always really popular.
rikyrah
Another GOP Voter Fraud Claim Falls Apart, and Democrats See an Opening
ELIZA NEWLIN CARNEY
APRIL 4, 2019
Republican voter fraud allegations are getting embarrassing—and politically damaging—for the GOP.
The latest overblown Republican claims of voter fraud have been thoroughly debunked, now that a federal judge has blocked a massive voter purge in Texas, and accused GOP election officials there of creating a “mess” that intimidated vulnerable voters.
But instead of eating crow, Republicans are doubling down. In Texas, even as a federal judge intervened, Republican state senators were advancing a bill that would erect fresh barriers to registration and voting. And President Donald Trump, having tweeted in January that the supposed illegal voting in Texas was “the tip of the iceberg” told GOP officials this week that they needed to be “careful” in upcoming elections, “because I don’t like the way the votes are being tallied.”
Nevertheless, GOP voter fraud claims and voter restriction efforts could come back to haunt Republicans in 2020. In Texas, the debacle that began when GOP Acting Secretary of State David Whitley announced erroneously in January that 95,000 noncitizens had registered in Texas, and 58,000 had voted, removed more than a dozen eligible voters from the rolls. (They were later reinstated.) Latino voting rights advocates, who successfully sued to block the Texas purge, predict a voter backlash.
Yutsano
@lamh36:
Listen.
To.
Black.
People.
Although I’m hoping the love affair with Biden will end soon.
And fuck Wilmer. He should have put those out ages ago. Although lack of production is making me wonder if it’s because he hasn’t filed. Which means he’s in trouble with my work.
And FUCK Tom Pérez for allowing this bullshit to happen.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
uh huh
uh huh
hueyplong
I grow impatient for Wilmer’s transition to Harold Stassen status.
bobbo
What really bothers me about all this is that the phrase is “sooner rather than later.” “Sooner than later” is nonsensical.
Ruckus
@MomSense:
As Roger said in the first comment this probably isn’t about his taxes, it is about his wealth. That is a good point about 2008, whatever happened there had to be obviously disqualifying for him and he knows it. But I’ll wait for April 15 to see if he even bothers to release his returns then. Is it possible that until 2008 they filed as married filing together and after that filed married filing separately so that his returns don’t show the true amount of income between them?
Kay
@rikyrah:
It’s been heartening to watch how their bullshit on voter fraud has collapsed over the last decade. It shouldn’t have taken that long but it did HAPPEN, eventually. Like pulling fucking teeth, but after 5000 examples and 500 court cases the lie was finally punctured. A decade ago no one would have even questioned that number, outside of a tiny, scrappy band of voting rights experts :)
trollhattan
Somebody yesterday summed it up perfectly:
Trump doesn’t release his tax returns because they show he’s poor.
Sanders doesn’t release his tax returns because they show he’s rich.
It could be as simple as that. Either or both could have nefarious shit going on; with Trump it’s probable with Wlmer I have a harder time getting a read.
Anonymous At Work
What I regard as more probable and the reason for his embarrassment is that he’s made money running for President since 2015 by running campaign offices through companies associated with his wife and that’ll show in the returns. He’ll have income streams that tie back to her or his campaign staffers or Manafort, etc. Pandora’s Box type returns.
A Ghost To Most
@lamh36: Here’s the point. I grew up in a family of racists. It never took with me, and I’ve lived my life as un-racist as I could. It cost me my family and most of my friends, and left a lot of scars.
I don’t feel guilty about my part, in fact I’m proud of it. Don’t try to guilt trip me as a proxy for those people. I don’t kiss anybody’s ass.
Shalimar
As I have said before, I think he waited this long because the embarrassing info he is trying to cover up is in the 2009 return, and now he can finally release the last 10 years without including it.
lamh36
hueyplong
@bobbo: Tough translation from Russian, sort of like the a-word-might-be-missing nature of referring to “moose and squirrel.”
rikyrah
@Yutsano:
I have no love affair with Biden. I don’t even want him to run. But, I already told you – I believe all this ‘ creepy Joe’ is bullshyt.
I don’t believe all women. It minimizes MeToo.
Take him out because you don’t like what he did on the bankruptcy bill, or Anita Hill. These are valid points.
khead
@Yutsano:
Give it time, young Jedi. It won’t take long.
rikyrah
Did we ever find out about the mysterious $10 million donation to Bernie’s campaign in 2016?
lamh36
He’s not wrong. I think folk on social media and in the poltical rat race bubble think otherwise, but outside of it…Obama and yes Biden are still popular.
Biden is not my candidate…and yes despite the “creepster” factor some have been talking bout…I think folks do underestimate the hold of that Obama/Biden base in the party outside of political/social media
ETA:…I don’t agree so much about the Moderate part, but if, as some of you say, ya want to attract the WWC voters away from GOP then you have to say “moderate”
germy
@rikyrah: Susan Sarandon?
khead
@lamh36:
Well, I’m looking for a POC here at Balloon Juice who is excited about Joe Biden. Just one. Someone feel free to step up here if you are a POC and a Biden supporter.
lamh36
Oh…it’s not just on twitter though
catclub
@MomSense:
as is often the case, the bad thing Trump does has been seriously foreshadowed by previous GOP actors.
I would name Mitt Romney for this one. He barely released anything, and made sure that he did not release info on the ‘foreign holdings amnesty year’ ( I think 2009.).
As to Kay’s Point about reciprocity, that works in favor of Sanders here. He can say that trump has not released any records so he won’t either.
[in the general] Trump generally has a good handle on the limited attention span of the media.
zhena gogolia
@Damien:
this.
zhena gogolia
@hueyplong:
Oh, me too. I hope we survive to see it.
Paula
The fact that BS refuses to release those taxes is a red flag. While I doubt there’s anything illegal going on, there’s clearly something embarrassing on some level. We can’t afford surprises. He can’t have his way and only release them IF he wins the primary, putting us in a situation where we have to clean up his mess once we’re stuck with him. Whatever it is, the GOP will use it.
He’s said multiple times they’re coming. Like Trump’s “audit” excuse, this is getting lame. And it puts him in a position of making “promises” he isn’t keeping – promises he has full control over.
He’s turned this into a “thing” by making those promises – he has to deliver and soon. And he shouldn’t be asked about anything else until he does.
Kay
@lamh36:
I wish I believed it but I don’t really. I don’t think Joe Biden had much to do with Obama winning elections. I’m not saying he didn’t work or campaign- I don’t think he was the draw and I think he could have been someone else and Obama would have won anyway. I have trouble imaging how he appeals to young people, and they were an important piece to Obama.
I agree with you thought that there’s a portion of the Democratic Party he appeals to. I just don’t think it’s big enough. It’s hard to put these pieces together and he needs them all.
MomSense
@Ruckus:
I hadn’t thought of that. Hmmm, very interesting.
Ruckus
@lamh36:
The MSM, and the old white male power structure of the country is terrified of a black woman, or any woman in power. Someone like Kamala Harris or Stacy Abrams running the place? The racists and misogynists would find out that being black and/or a woman is not disqualifying and in fact probably a far better preparation for being the president of all of us than most any white man. Those rich, old, white, male fuckers would stroke out if they found out that a caring, strong, black woman was a far better president than any white male would make. And they know it.
zhena gogolia
@Paula:
His closet is so full of skeletons it looks like a Boris Karloff movie. We can’t afford to have him as the nominee, period.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
Or the 639 pages containing thousands of FEC violations?
Kay
@catclub:
Disagree. The contrast with Trump is what Democrats want, and will insist upon. It’s unacceptable, which Sanders knows, and that’s why he’s been promising them so long.
catclub
@Ruckus: note my comment that Romney broke trail on this by releasing about one years worth of taxes.
I don’t see why Sanders does not do that – just release one year. Actually he is making great use of the two pages released in 2014.
zhena gogolia
@zhena gogolia:
Not to mention he would be a horrible president. But if he’s the nominee he’s not going to win, so his unfitness for the job is a secondary consideration.
H.E.Wolf
@lamh36:
@lamh36:
Amen, and thank you.
lamh36
@khead: I’m not and most of the folks I know online, are not, but it might . not surprise you to know that the BJ POC commentariat or online is not nearly close to representative.
But what I can tell you, that in my own little NOLA community…they like Biden…they KNOW Biden…so yeah…until someone catches fire other than Biden…many of them are waiting.
I’m talking the demo of POC voters who vote consistently, and not say voters who don’t like younger voters, or protest voters…
I like Kamala Harris, she is my candidate as I’m sure most know…so I talk her up as much as I can to them…but until she catches true fire with white voters (like Obama had to do) they’ll go with what and who they know and that’s Biden
Jeffro
Off to the Final Four, woot!
GO HOOS!! ????
Mike J
At least neither Trump nor Sanders will be on the ballot in Washington if they don’t get with it. The bill requiring release of taxes has already passed in the WA senate, and passed in committee in the house two days ago. Still not on the calendar for the full house, but it will be soon. Inslee, who has released his taxes, has said he will sign it.
It will make the shitshow caucuses even more fun.
Aleta
@lamh36: Thanks for this.
Martin
I would like to note that Bernie made the same claim in 2016. At the very least his taxes from 2009 to 2016 should have been done 3 years ago and immediately available to release. He won’t even release those. He’s completely full of shit. He’ll never release them.
Kent
@Mary G:
My theory is that they own a bunch of dividend paying corporate stocks like Exxon and don’t want to divest because of capital gains taxes.
Kay
Except many candidates did release, and they make high 100’s or low 200’s and no one is saying that at all. They make high 100’s as senators alone, so it would be a pretty dumb thing to say. They all have to resign as senators or never mention inequality again.
Martin
@Mike J: CA has the same law, but I doubt it’ll hold up in court.
lamh36
lamh36
Ruckus
@catclub:
Well, he’s trying to make good use of them. But he wants to be one of us and that’s not even near close enough to good. We don’t know something that we should know. There is a reason he has never shown his returns and that is that he’s hiding something. Now I’m not one that thinks I have to know every second and every thought of a candidate but the big issues and pictures, yes we should know them. This position has a lot of power and can be misused badly, as we see happening right now. We are the people, we are the ones that are supposed to pick the leader, the ones who make the decisions as to why this person should have that power. We are the ones who decide what is important for us to know, not the person asking us to allow them to lead us or to fuck us over. It’s not their place to say no.
Martin
@lamh36:
California would like to have a word.
Golden rule applies here. Someone show me a Trump voter, or Trump himself, that has any empathy for Clinton voters. Pull our disaster funds to build a wall? They can fuck right off.
khead
@lamh36:
Thank you for the response. I understand and I can tell you that it’s not just the folks you know – it’s a LOT of white folks too. I was, of course, trolling a bit here yesterday. But I was also all over the rest of the Internet too. Just on a rampage. In all of the Internet communities I hang out in – it appears that Biden has a LOT of support. But it’s the kind of support that will not survive so much as a smidge of scrutiny. It’s also the kind of support that comes from older white folks who are NOT the Democratic base. I’m anti Joe and anti Wilmer. I’m willing to let the rest of the candidates sort themselves out.
rikyrah
@zhena gogolia:
HOLLERING!
BWA HA HA AH AH AH A
JustRuss
I don’t give a crap why Bernie won’t show his taxes. He just needs to quit futzing around and do it. This stalling serves no purpose, although it keeps people talking about him, so there’s that. We’ve already tried having an attention-whore POTUS, I for one have had enough.
gwangung
The correct word here is MANIPULATION.
As with Republicans, coasting along on reputation and the past to cover up misdeeds they’re doing now.
wuzzat
@Mary G: Everyone who cares to already knows that they doesn’t donate to charity. The Burlington Free Press used to run an article on it every couple of years or so. Wilmer doesn’t believe in charity, or so he used to say.
Roger Moore
@MomSense:
I think he’s stalling in the hopes people stop asking to see his taxes. He isn’t going to release them, or will release only summaries, or will otherwise avoid revealing whatever it is that he wants to hide. He will not be open and transparent about them.
rikyrah
@Kay:
ABSOLUTELY!!
The Lodger
@zhena gogolia: Trump wasn’t going to win either, and everybody ignored his unfitness for the job… until they couldn’t.
JustRuss
@lamh36:
I think Trump voters should have healthcare, clean air and water, safe workplaces, and Social Security. Is that empathetic enough?
Kay
@khead:
Biden thinks he’s going to re-litigate Obama, but he’s not. He’s going to re-litigate 1990’s Democrats. Which won’t be pretty.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Yep….she has to prove that she can get White Non-Californians to vote for her.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah:
I don’t think I coined that!
Mike in NC
Shouty old man will never release his taxes and the media will just shrug it off, while working overtime to trash the women who are running.
Kay
@rikyrah:
It’s silly and to my mind, vain. None of these people are poor or working class. Being in the senate alone guarantees that.
The Berniacs always internalize Right wing arguments. They actually believe on some level that AOC can’t have a nice jacket, or whatever Tucker Carlson is screaming about today, or they wouldn’t be so ridiculously self conscious about Bernie’s stupid tax returns. We all know they pay or paid Jane Sanders. That’s already out.
Jerry
@Mary G:
My theory is that or they are not paying their fair share of taxes. Or hey! Why not both?
trollhattan
@Martin:
Not that it’s tax season I can verify Trump and Ryan and Turtle have cost this California household many thousands of dollars. I’m sure Stephen Moore has an explanation of why that’s a good thing.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
It’s a combination of things for me. One is that it’s a symbol of his unwillingness to abide by the rules that apply to others, just like his unwillingness to join the Democratic party except when it’s convenient for him. But it’s also emblematic of his “just trust me” attitude toward everything. We’re supposed to take his word that he’s a great guy with nothing to hide, but he won’t provide any evidence. We’re supposed to take his word that he has wonderful plans for how he’s going to make things better, but he doesn’t want to provide any details about how he’s going to accomplish any of that stuff. He’s all hat and no cattle.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
NOPE
Martin
@lamh36:
I’ll offer up what I learned in 2008 from my POC friends. They all wanted to support Obama in the primaries, but that vote is too important to throw away. They were all Clinton supporters early on, because that was the safe vote. That was the vote that could win the general. Over time Obama won them over, but he had to earn it. Me, as a white male, could put my support behind him early on – after all, what do I have to lose? If a Republican wins, I’m still fine. My life doesn’t change all that much. But look at the uptick of white supremacy violence due to Trump. This is life and death for POC. I don’t for a second doubt they want to go all in on Harris or Abrams, but that vote has to be earned. Put simply, getting Trump out is more important than getting Harris in.
To POC, I suspect Biden looks like a relatively safe bet to oust Trump. That looks like failure to me. If Democrats want to win in 2020, it has to be a female candidate, ideally a woman of color. I like Booker. I like Pete. Biden has had his time. It’s time for the younger generation to take over. Make them VP or whatever, but turnout energy is around women of color. The democratic party is lamh36’s party, and if we’re going to win, the candidate needs to be lamh36’s candidate. Not all white people are afraid of the future.
ruemara
@A Ghost To Most: You should rethink that as a response.
@rikyrah: It’s been MSNBernieCult for years.
Bernie’s taxes are also Jane’s taxes and they will show corporate investments that aren’t pure, plus that it’s not a miracle that they can afford 3 houses. I have no doubts that there’s shenanigans going on. Wish we could learn how Old Towne Media figures in his financial campaign disclosures – which also haven’t happened from 2015-6.
I’m on episode 6 of a new audiodrama and I can’t tell it from the last female led audiodrama. Manic pixie anxious 20 something year old girl is way too constant as a staple in this genre.
Kent
@Kay: I think it’s the hypocrisy. Wilmer is unique in the way he demonizes the wealthy in this country in his campaign rhetoric. He is such a special flower he can’t even join the Democratic Party because it is so tainted and compromised. I expect a thorough examination of his taxes will show how much of a hypocrite he actually is.
The Thin Black Duke
@JustRuss: GREAT answer. Thank you.
Martin
@Mary G:
Two words: Jane Sanders.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Their supposed Foundation is a crooked as Dolt45’s.
Betty Cracker
@lamh36: I don’t know if this is directed at me or not — I won’t assume it is because it drives me nuts when people assume a general thing I say is directed at them and then pout about it forever! ;-)
Cacti
There’s something embarrassing in there. It’s just a question of what.
Am I inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt?
Nope.
rikyrah
@Martin:
Iowa changed EVERYTHING.
And, I do mean EVERYTHING.
I was in early with Obama. I mean volunteering and going to Iowa early. Spending several weekends in Iowa for him.
Weekends on the phone.
The rest of my family was skeptical, and was behind Hillary.
Until the night of the Iowa Caucus. I’ll never forget looking at my mother’s face as she looked at the results from the Iowa Caucus.
My mother who had grown up in the Police State known as Jim Crow Mississippi.
Kamala has to prove it too. She has to win White Non-Californians.
scuffletuffle
@rikyrah: Amen.
Gin & Tonic
@Martin:
As someone here pointed out yesterday, I think, Biden is proposing that he should take office at an age two years greater than Alzheimer’s-addled Reagan was *when he left office.* Sorry, Joe, among many other reasons, you’re too fucking old for the job.
dww44
@Yutsano:I’m not into the weeds enough of this issue, but what could Tom Perez have done to prevent? Did/does he have the ability to require all candidates to release their tax returns?
hueyplong
@rikyrah: Now, now, when Trump voters are dead I’ll say something nice, like it’s nice he’s dead.
khead
@Martin:
This is good. I mean, fuck Mayor Pete, but the rest of the post is good! Very good! I’m heading to Wildwood for the weekend. You can’t get much whiter than that. Y’all have a good weekend.
NY Robbin
@Ruckus:
Better believe it! Look how they acted when a caring, strong black man was a better president then most of the prior white men.
Eljai
@Kay: Most of the hypocrisy charges I’ve seen have come from right-wing sources. Faux News and the NYPost both ran stories that Kristin Gillibrand (who has released her taxes) benefited from the GOP tax cut — that she opposed! Oh my! What was she supposed to do? Is there a line on the tax forms where you can write in “Oh no you don’t IRS! I do not accept this tax cut. I demand you take more of my money!”
Kent
@Gin & Tonic: and Sanders is a whole year older than Biden
Hoodie
@rikyrah: Not so sure it’s the same landscape. Iowa pierced Clinton’s inevitability in 2008. With so many candidates and no dominant pre-ordained front runner like Clinton heading into Iowa, no one stands to emerge from Iowa and, probably, New Hampshire. Bernie and Biden may be nominally ahead after Iowa and New Hampshire, but that may not be very dispositive, because Harris can pick up a lot of momentum with SC and Super Tuesday. The biggest threat of a front runner emerging from Iowa might be Beto, if he can ignite a similar grass-roots passion to that Obama generated in 2008, but I don’t think he’s got the horsepower to do that.
Wapiti
Deep in an old thread, but here’s my crazy theory on Sanders’ taxes: Every day he gets asked when he’s going to release his taxes, and as a politician he knows he’ll have to release them to have a chance of winning the primary. So he says soon, or by April 15, or a couple of weeks.. whatever he can say to move the interview along. Then he goes home for the evening and is told nope, it’s not going to happen. So in the interviews he’s cringing even as he answers, because he knows there’ll be hell to pay at home.
It may not be exactly this, but he’s wrestling with competing non-negotiables of some sort.
burnspbesq
@rikyrah:
Now that I live a half hour from the Capitol, and am getting a close-up view of the Texas Legislature in action, I’m finding that what Molly Ivins used to write about it was way, way understated.
ruemara
@khead: If Biden won the primaries ( don’t think he will), I’d support him. Right now, I support him stopping talking.
lamh36
trollhattan
Speaking of trainwrecks (and we certainly are)
Train is moving at 2mph, slowly passing “Bridge out, ahead” signs placed every 10 yards, and yet somehow nobody bothers to pull the brake handle. There aren’t many more signs.
rikyrah
Oh.so.cancelled.
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
We want to vote for the better person. Republicans want to vote for the worst racist scum who will fuck over POC and anyone who knows that everyone should be equal. They do not want to be equal, they want to be considered far better. Which is all they can get is considered better – because they are far worse. @JustRuss: said it perfectly. We want them to have all the things they should have and have all those things actually working, but not just for them, for everyone. We want a better life for us and them, they want anyone not them to have a worse life.
Yellowdog
@Gin & Tonic: You can’t put money in an IRA or Roth if you make more than about $150,000.
catclub
@Roger Moore:
yep. and all evidence is if you simply say no, the media gets bored. Trump’s crucial understanding.
catclub
@trollhattan: They are really going to crash out. wow.
probably when they ask for one more last minute unanimous approval for yet another change,
from the rest of the EC, and some country says “No, fuck this shit”
Uncle Cosmo
Most of this has been said above, but to recap: IMO (FWIW) a full look at Wilmer’s tax history – not necessarily the returns he may eventually release – would expose him as a tightfisted hypocritical old coot who preaches socialism but invests in dodgy &/or antisocial schemes to make every buck he can & whose spouse is collecting big loot from nonprofits & hiding it under “married filing separately”. My guess is that his minions are scrambling right now to bury as much of the evidence as possible; maybe the most damaging stuff happened in 2008 & they’re holding back until that slips the 10-year window.
catclub
@Wapiti:
and as long as the interviewer does not just stop and say “We’re done here” he wins doing this.
lamh36
smh…companies still not learing that diversity if what wins
I belived Beyonce went with Adiddas instead.
I’m many want to bet that Reebok may have had a female in group, but NOT one POC? I mean if the even had any women at all?
Gin & Tonic
@Yellowdog: Yes you can, it’s just that the contribution is not deductible. But income and gains in the fund are tax-free until you have to start making distributions.
sukabi
@Jane2: but did he specify WHICH April 15th?
His taxes from 2017 and prior should have been completed and he should have copies he can print right out.
He’s hoping he won’t have to release them as they’ll blow his “frugal socialist” image.
tobie
@lamh36: damn it! I will be in Cologne in June. Could Obama not have waited till then?
lamh36
jl
Posted my best most brilliant comment ever in the history and future of the multiverse on the wrong thread. I repost in hopes of infuriating or boring select members of the BJ commentariate:
Lady Cracker provides the kindest interpretation of BS’s weird delays on his tax returns. Might be true. Barack Obama joked that, at around a net worth of $700 K, Biden was the poorest slob in the Senate. So, unless Bernie has that distinction now, he’s probably worth more than a million.
But still, so what? BS could probably still advertise himself as poorest or one of the poorest slobs in the Senate. Given crap policy and crap performance since the housing boom that lead to the Great Recession, the US version of a capitalist paradise has failed miserably, and continues to fail miserably, in being able to provide affordable housing for its people. So, in many, and a rapidly growing number of areas, the privilege of owning one damn house can make you a paper millionaire. BS can use that to his advantage too.
I got no dog in the current spat over whether BS is the most wonderful person ever, or a vile treasonous Russian spy and conperson to rival Trump. I wanted Warren to run in 2016 now, and am supporting her for now with contributions. If Harris and Gillibrand are real deals in their moves to support more progressive policies, BS won’t matter nearly so much in this cycle. So, I can wait for a reason to worry about him very much. The old coot has pledged to support the Dem nominee, and we have to trust he sticks to that.
chopper
@Jane2:
he’s been saying that for the last 3 years. how many t’s and i’s are we fuckin talking about here.
schrodingers_cat
@lamh36: No.@rikyrah: I was criticized by his BJ fanclub, for bringing that up last weekend.
BTW I can say Good Bye in 10 languages. I can has Presidency now?
ruemara
@chopper: he’s doing it with the magical unicorn ink that will also get medicare 4 all through a republican Senate.
Prometheus Shrugged
@rikyrah: I think–and hope, since she’s my favorite of the current slate–that her job will be easier once California gives her a big slingshot boost in the primary. I’m pretty sure that she will be the major beneficiary of California moving its primary earlier. This boost shoud include fundraising as well as recognition/appeal among non coastal “economicaly anxious” voters, once the field has been whittled to the main contenders.
Of course, I was dead wrong in my faith that Rancid Circus Peanut couldn’t possibly prevail, and BernieDudeBros were surprisingly numerous and vocal in 2016 in Southern California. So who knows. But I just don’t get that same vibe this time, and I can’t see anyone but KH emerging as the solid frontrunner after the California primary.
Emerald
Prediction: going out on a limb here, but if it really looks like Wilmer is going to have to release his taxes, he’ll find a reason to drop out of the race. He’ll also promise, by the way, as he did in 2016, that he’ll release them later. And as in 2016, 17, 18, he won’t do it. He’s only in it for the grifting anyway, and clearly thinks the grifting will stop if people find out whatever’s in his taxes. He’ll take whatever $$$ he’s got by that time and split, but he’ll never release his taxes!
schrodingers_cat
BS doesn’t want to release his taxes because he has been on Putin’s payroll for ever. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Just Chuck
@tobie:
Skip rope to this:
Bernie, Bernie, feel the Bern
Where’s your fucking tax return?
Betty Cracker
@Eljai: I know you’re being sarcastic, but Fox News literally said Democrats who voted against the tax bill but received benefits from it should have done that — refused to accept the cut. It’s impossible to parody those assholes.
Barbara
@chopper: I have no clue what his problem is but his tax situation can’t be more complicated than mine. We file in somewhere between four and five different states, it depends, have LLP and farm income, not to mention conservation credits associated with the farm. I used to do my taxes on my own and could navigate all kinds of internal revenue instructions, and I can’t remember whether it was the farm income or the New York City withholding that pushed me over the edge, but for heaven’s sake, surely they have accountants in Vermont, and if they don’t I will personally pay for him to retain my accountant to get his taxes straightened out. One thing I do wonder about with Sanders is whether he takes a “hobby business” or “home office” deduction. A hobby business would be like having a ski hill in your backyard that you open on weekends and lose your shirt on, and for which you realize losses. Many horse farms and vineyards are hobby businesses. Maybe we should have an informal betting game on what is it that Sanders is afraid of. My guess? He pays zero federal taxes because of the number and breadth of the business expense deductions he takes.
schrodingers_cat
@Zifnab25: Long time no see! How have you been?
Barbara
@Betty Cracker: No, maybe what they should do is use the savings to donate to Democratic candidates.
jl
Every thread an open thread! Great presidential slogan. I’ll support any BJ commenter for pres who is on board.
Posts ridiculing David Brooks’ dishonest BS columns have disappeared from this here miserable lefty almost top 10,000 blog. I guess because Krugman does it now, in a very genteel and polite way.
@paulkrugman
My colleague David Brooks has an interesting and encouraging column about how Canada has reduced poverty, which emphasizes community activism and cooperation. All good stuff. But I suspect that money matters too … 1/
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1114132293730353152
The Lodger
@lamh36:Wow. Every Polish American east of Fargo, ND is going to go bonkers when they hear this.
feebog
@rikyrah:
I don’t think that will be a problem for Harris. We have a pretty fair cross section of white folks who contribute to this blog; Ruckus, Roger Moore, Martin, Mary G. Fair Economist, Mem, and several others I can’t remember off hand. Harris might not be their first choice, but I would be interested in knowing how many of us California Juicers will be voting for her next March.
rikyrah
@Just Chuck:
LOL
Richard Guhl
@lamh36: This old white dude says amen to that.
catclub
@Betty Cracker:
I bet the number of GOP reps who turned down coverage of their 25 year old kids on their health insurance is right around zero.
Mandalay
@rp:
The point has been made here several times before, but it’s still worth repeating: tax returns from Sanders or Trump are unlikely to tell you much about their net worth.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@rikyrah: This white male Oregonian is all in on Kamala! But I’m politics nerd who frequents Balloon Juice on a daily basis. I think she’ll see a sustained surge in support when more folks start paying closer attention…
tobie
@Just Chuck: Thanks, Just Chuck. Chuckling ;-)
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Eljai: The US Government is happy to take donations.
catclub
@Mandalay: exactly. O’Brien who won his suit against Trump says the key thing to figure out is how he suddenly went from borrowing money to paying cash for things around 2005-6. I have jumped to the conclusion that is Russian oligarch money talking.
Plato
Is this polling outfit any good?
jl
@feebog: ” I would be interested in knowing how many of us California Juicers will be voting for her next March. ”
I don’t get too attached to specific candidates until I see what they do and say in campaign. I am currently supporting Warren, but there are three or four other current candidates who I could (given current info) very happily vote for in the primary, including Harris. We’ll see what they say and do over the next year.
And, of course, I will crawl through the proverbial broken glass and anthrax laced rusty tire rims to vote for whoever Dem nominee is in November 2020.
Fair Economist
@catclub: @trollhattan: May’s goal is pretty obvious – she wants to force a choice between her bad deal and No Deal. These deal offers are just running down the clock. I don’t think she’s going to get it, though, between Bercow refusing repeat options, the opposition uninterested in bailing her out, and a non-trivial section of her allies absolutely opposed to her deal for various reasons. In the end she will have to decide whether to crash out or to abort to a long extension and/or referendum. It’s going to be her decision because Parliament is too split to really take over. I have no idea what she will do because I just don’t understand her motives.
catclub
@Eljai:
actually there is, if you want it to go to paying down the debt.
gvg
He is hiding something. Why should we trust him? all the speculation I have read on what he is hiding is all over the map because we have few facts. Speculation diffuses our focus. He is obviously hiding something. I don’t need to know what.
We have to win, we can’t risk a loser.
Romney started it, Trump and Sanders continued it. We are hurt by hidden tax returns. I think they are hiding different things, but it really doesn’t matter. All of them are not to be trusted. Sanders, a semiDemocrat avoiding showing his income, makes our hand to demand Trump show his, weaker. Not just Trump, but every Presidential candidate from now on, and soon, Congressmen too…..It’s a lot easier for the public to punish bad behavior, if it’s just one party, not both. Sanders evasiveness is also contributing to voter apathy IMO.
rikyrah
Amene (@Ange_Amene) Tweeted:
Major erasure of Black Leaders and POC leaders.
Completely tone deaf. ?
What’s with the obsession of white men to be first?
Bernie Sanders Says He May Be Old, White, and Male, But He Was Here First https://t.co/tfRgeCXJqF https://twitter.com/Ange_Amene/status/1114217716133416960?s=17
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
Well then every Republican on Medicaid or who has a preexisting condition has to go it alone.
Or risk …hypocrisy!
Fair Economist
@gvg:
In the current media environment, speculation gets more attention than facts, so speculate away.
Archon
If Bernie is rich that won’t be a huge problem. Regardless of his politics he’s living in an ultra capitalist system, criticizing his wealth because he’s a socialist is the type of myopia better suited for right-wingers. If Bernie got to implement all his economic policies there would still be wealthy people, why can’t he be one?. What could be a problem is if he was going above and beyond to not pay his fair share in taxes because
Sanders policies would require everyone to pay their fair share. If he and/or his wife taxes look at all like potential tax avoidance then Bernie would definitely look like a hypocrite.
Roger Moore
@lamh36:
It’s an interesting article, but I find the part about how maybe we should identify Pulaski as she or they annoying. It’s absolutely clear that Pulaski identified as male during his life, and we’re supposed to respect his self-identification rather than imposing some “appropriate” terminology based on biological sex.
lamh36
Video at link.
Kamala Harris on Barr and the Mueller Report.
She on with Seth Meyers
Kay
@Plato:
I don’t know but I feel like the low quality Trump hires have detected the slippage. There’s a reason he’s dragging his lazy ass into his base areas in Ohio and Michigan. Trump probably shouldn’t have to convince anyone in Grand Rapids Michigan at this point. He should have them locked in. If he was more confident he’d be venturing beyond TrumpWorld.
Mandalay
Biden thinks it’s a laughing matter:
Forget his actual groping. Biden’s response to the concerns about his behavior has been a complete train wreck. For someone who repeatedly insisted “I get it!” two days ago he is clueless and oblivious.
Gravenstone
@lamh36: There’s a tiny little town near where I grew up in very conservative rural Ohio that is named for Pulaski. If this initial reporting is accurate, I’ll be curious to see whether it prompts any discussion to change the town name?
Roger Moore
@feebog:
Listing a bunch of white Californians doesn’t really get at the issue of Harris convincing white non-Californians.
Gin & Tonic
Reminder that at some point he did release his 2014 taxes. You can peruse the return here.
They filed jointly, and the only reported sources of income were his salary, his SS benefits (don’t forget, he’s old) and Jane’s income from that nuclear waste dumping she does in Texas. Taxable interest was $11, so all their liquid and investable assets are in tax-deferred accounts (or they have nothing in the bank.)
On an AGI of a bit over $200k, they gave $8,350 to charity. They also paid $22k in mortgage interest. Most old people I know like to have their mortgage paid off, but whatever. They paid $15k in real estate taxes, so there’s definitely some property.
Richard Guhl
While we’re in the game of speculation about Bernie’s foot-dragging on his taxes, I would guess that both he and Jane are incapable of organizing themselves out of a paper bag and keep their records on random slips of paper with the result that their tax forms are covered in white-out and numbers entered in the wrong box and addition errors that are such whoppers that the whole thing looks like it was done by a first grader, and because Bernie is too stubborn to hire a CPA since that would be too capitalistic for his true-believer mind, they are constantly getting letters from the IRS demanding interest and penalties and threatening to garnish his salary.
In other words, they’re incompetent. But too ideologically blind to care.
jl
If she runs, count me on the Plame train! I’ll send money! Well, I’ll strongly consider it. Depends on who else is running, I guess, and if she can campaign well enough.
@APWestRegion
Valerie Plame, a former US spy whose identity was leaked by someone in President George W. Bush’s administration, tells @AP she is considering a run for Congress in New Mexico.
https://twitter.com/APWestRegion/status/1114206057914671104
chopper
@lamh36:
dunno, but as soon as warren and harris start saying the same sort of stuff about red staters and trump voters, lots of people who are pissed as shit about mayor pete are gonna start shrugging their shoulders and saying ‘well, she’s saying what she has to to win’.
Kay
@Plato:
If Trump was as strong as he and the NYTimes say he is, all of these top tier Democrats wouldn’t be running, because they wouldn’t think they could win and they would wait for an election without an incumbent. Whatever else it is, the Democratic field is full of political pros. These are their careers and they’re not stupid. They think he’s weak and there are a lot of them. Not all of that is “irrational Trump hate” or ego. They see weakness.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Mandalay: Damn – what an asshole! I’m actually surprised by this, and I’m not much of a Joe fan…
Barry
@Zifnab25: “Appealing to Chris Cillizza when you want to sell a point is generally a mistake.”
The argument boils down to ‘when even Cillizza notices…’.
Also, I think that the media will go harder on Sanders this time. Last time he was the anti-Clinton; now he’s the front-runner, opposing Trump.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Mandalay: From the same article:
What an asshole – no humility or willingness to learn or grow. Certainly not what we need in our next President.
lamh36
Roger Moore
@Richard Guhl:
Bernie has claimed Jane files their taxes using TurboTax, so the “badly organized” argument doesn’t cut it. I’ve been using tax software for a long time, and the slowest part of producing 10 years of my tax returns would be blanking out my address and SSN. Even if they are completely scatterbrained, they could ask the IRS to send them copies of their old returns. There’s no technical problem that could have prevented them from releasing their returns by now; the only reason they haven’t is because they don’t want to.
chopper
@rikyrah:
back in the 80’s warren was a republican, so i guess we’re supposed to nope right the fuck past that too.
i mean, mayor pete has his baggage and his issues and there are plenty of reasons to oppose the guy, but a political essay he wrote when he was fucking 18 years old?
Gin & Tonic
@Roger Moore: The 2014 return says “self-prepared” and certainly looks like it could be a TurboTax work product.
germy
Steve in the ATL
@lamh36: Pulaski, Tennessee was named after him. Or her. Or they or whatever. Pulaski, Tennessee is where the Ku Klux Klan was founded. Coincidence?
Another Scott
@rp: Meh.
Remember we’ve seen Donnie’s 2005 return (or at least the 1040 page) via Rachel Maddow’s show. The copy on the web is horrible quality, but the reporting says his income was “more than $150M”. (Notice the very bottom of the page listing the penalties and interest that weren’t included.)
Wikipedia says:
They were probably being audited, amirite??
Nobody that Donnie cares about will care about the returns. He’ll bluster and say down is up and go on to some other shiny object – like appointing Ronald McDonald as the head of the National Cancer Institute, or something…
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
jl
@chopper: Reminder of the old KGB saying ‘Give me the person, and I’ll give you the case’.
chopper
@schrodingers_cat:
because it’s stupid. hey look, beto wrote an essay in 6th grade about how he liked ronald reagan! fuck that guy!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@feebog:
(Feels slighted, cries. No more pics for you!)
germy
Steve in the ATL
@rikyrah: @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I’m a white Georgian and Harris is my first choice as well.
So formerly disgruntled and me make two…how many more does she need?
Chyron HR
@rikyrah:
What kind of god would Bernie be if he didn’t dictate some commandments like, “Thou Shalt Have No Other Socialist Before Me!”
WaterGirl
@Just Chuck: That’s good enough to *almost* make me want to go out and buy a jumprope. Almost.
germy
Kay
@germy:
The terror the Trump Family shows anytime anyone asks that they produce a document is amusing.
This just shouldn’t be so hard for them. They’re the best thing that ever happened to DC lawyers. A simple disclosure takes years and hundreds of thousands in legal fees. I don’t generally hew to “if you have nothing to fear you have nothing to hide” but in the case of these people it’s obvious. They fear.
Chyron HR
@germy:
“This is a hill and people would be willing to die on it…”
Jimmy. Jimbo. Jim-Jam. When Trump orders you to “die on a hill”, please keep in mind that he’s not smart enough to understand metaphors.
trollhattan
Really, really, really want to read the Mueller Report.
My hunch is the Germans will take this more seriously than…you know.
chopper
@germy:
but 10 years of returns would be 2008-2017. he’d already have done it.
WaterGirl
@chopper: It’s universal: saying what you have to in order to win is considered just fine with your preferred candidate, but is considered dishonest and shifty in someone who is not your preferred candidate.
It’s the same with music. If you like a particular musical artist, you like their “sound” and you might have, and listen to, a lot of their music. But if it’s an artist you don’t particularly care for, you might say something like “all of Jimmy Buffett’s stuff sounds the same to me”.
It’s human nature. Twas ever thus. We give the benefit of the doubt to those we like; we give what I call the “negative benefit of the doubt” to those we do not.
debit
@Aleta: Check your email!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kay: That’s exactly what happened in 1992, HW Bush’s popularity was sky high in 1991 so the only serious candidates were Jerry Brown and some Governor from Arkansas. All the high profile candidates were going to wait until there was no incumbent in ’96.
Gin & Tonic
@chopper: Twitter outrage is easier than counting.
chopper
@Chyron HR:
indeed. that’s why he’s so behind fighting the mueller report. one of his female advisers said they were “going to the mattresses” and he got all excited.
Major Major Major Major
@rikyrah: I don’t really care what anybody’s political views were when they were eighteen.
Hitlesswonder
@rikyrah: she has the vote of this white noncalifornian.
chopper
@Major Major Major Major:
shit, when i was 18 i was a full-on anarchist who wanted to “smash the state”. crass t-shirt and everything.
Mandalay
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
And yet more self praise from the kiddy fiddler:
So Biden sees no need to apologize to the girls and women he groped and sniffed because his intentions were honorable? On the campaign trail he needs to wear one of those “Fuck your feelings” T-shirts that Trump’s supporters love.
I’m sure Biden’s team have crunched the numbers and told him that the best way to address his past groping is to joke about it and show Trumpian defiance, but he’s going to get slaughtered for this by his rivals, and deservedly so.
Steve in the ATL
@Major Major Major Major: that’s too bad, because mine were *perfect*
O. Felix Culpa
@Gravenstone: Pulaskiville perhaps? Ms. O. grew up there.
Kay
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I think it does happen with even middling popularity because it’s harder to beat an incumbent. I mean, they all have political teams and they’re senators- they run statewide races. They know what a weak incumbent looks like.
Fair Economist
@chopper:
Yeah, I don’t think Jane stopped grifting in 2007. Actually, we know she didn’t, because just last year she and one of Bernie’s sons were pulling down sweet salaries in Bernie “thinktank”, from which I’ve never seen anything.
I’ll bet Bernie’s got some fishy looking investments, too. He doesn’t act like Jane’s kept boy, so he’s got money of his own.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
I used to be able to say hello and thank you in 5 or 6 languages.
And that used to be nothing. And now as I’ve forgotten most of them it is nothing. I used to know a lot of people who spoke multiple languages. All but one of them was from Europe, Japan, China or Russia. The one that wasn’t was my neighbor when I was in 10-18 yrs old. Retired gentleman who had worked for Standard Oil and traveled the world because of that. He had to speak them just to hold the job. And yes I think it’s nice that people speak more than one language. I also think it’s one of our worst cultural idioms, that so many think that speaking anything but the tortured English that we speak is crass and unacceptable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@lamh36: DNA appears to show this Revolutionary War general was a woman or intersex
Holy crap! you’d think there would at least be some rumors about that in history books. Is Pulaski Day still a public holiday in Chicago?
chopper
@Fair Economist:
i think there’s a lot of fishy shit in his taxes, but nothing deadly. but it’s enough to blow up his image as “mr. socialism.” and it’s not like he has a solid record of accomplishment on capital hill to lean on.
Frankensteinbeck
@lamh36:
…what? Seriously? I mean, I believe you, but I’m shocked that anyone who isn’t already a pariah here said that. The only person I can recall who ever got dinged for being ‘anti-white’ was M-C, and she was, uh… special.
@Ruckus:
Certainly true, but I have become vividly aware lately of just how pissed off a lot of men are at the thought that if a woman becomes in charge, they will no longer be able to harass women whenever they feel like it. They consider it a sacred right.
?BillinGlendaleCA
I was thinking of a return visit to The Huntington, but traffic sucks; then I read that Trump will be in town in about a hour. Thanks Trump.
(He’s here for a fundraiser in the Hills.)
Major Major Major Major
@lamh36: What about the original “Basket of Deplorables” speech?
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: Steve at No More Mr. Nice Blog has a post up on that very topic.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major: No, she just called them all Deplorables, that’s what the press told me.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: I would recommend that you listen to Buttigieig talk about that contest when he is asked about it. He admired that Sanders was willing to stand up for what he believed in and call himself a Socialist in a time when that was a risky thing to do. If you listen to what Buttigieg says in response to that question, you will see that he doesn’t say a thing about admiring Sanders now. He is careful not to dis Sanders, but it was obvious to me that he is not the 18-year-old boy who was impressed with Sanders. Reading between the lines of what he does and doesn’t say about Sanders, I suspect there is no respect left for the man who exists today.
On a somewhat related note, NPR reported this and I would love to hear your take on it. From your perspective, has he hit on all the right things? None of the right things? He missed some but got others right?
Chyron HR
@WaterGirl:
“things that all of us care about: homeownership, entrepreneurship”
HA HA HA OH WOW
prostratedragon
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Not the original commenter, but yes, Pulaski Day was just a few weeks ago. Public school holiday. Think I’ll read the article.
Immanentize
@WaterGirl:
That is a good description of what is also called attribution bias.
Ruckus
@feebog:
Speaking for myself……
First is Stacy Abrams. I like everything I’ve heard and she comes across as very realistic and down to earth. She just feels like a natural leader. I like her so I bet she doesn’t run.
Second is Kamala Harris. She’s good, she’s polished, smart and her policies are good.
Third is Warren. I like what I hear. I wish she was younger. I don’t like that she was a republican till not all that long ago, but I guess as long as she’s changed, has good ideas and policies and is a hard and tireless worker for what she believes in, she’s OK with me.
Fourth really is all the other possible decent democratic candidates.
The best president in my many decades is President Obama. How many heads would explode if Abrams or Harris gets elected and is even better? That would be worth it even if they weren’t great candidates but they are.
Every human on the planet has baggage, for some the baggage outweighs the sun. Right now the front dem candidates are all reasonable choices. And no I will never think of BS as a democratic candidate.
Major Major Major Major
I maintain that the worst thing anybody has done so far in the primary campaign is Warren’s DNA test, which I do not consider disqualifying or even very much worth mentioning.
ETA: second-worst, Buttigieg said his favorite book is Ulysses.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Sufjan Stevens certainly thinks it is.
Casimir Polaski Day
Such a beautiful, sad-happy song.
StringOnAStick
@Roger Moore: I’m a white non-Californian and I’m supporting Harris and Warren with monthly donations right now.
Immanentize
@WaterGirl: @Chyron HR:
When I heard him say that, I too thought — what are home ownership and entrepreneurship doing there leading the pack? That’s not even in the top five for white folks.
Uncle Cosmo
@The Lodger: So maybe US 40 heading east out of Baltimore will change its name from Pulaski Highway to Pulaski Herway….
Major Major Major Major
@Immanentize: Affordable housing is definitely a top priority for everybody… I know that the home ownership gap is a big part of the racial wealth gap and that other candidates, I think Harris particularly, has some policies aimed at that… but… weird to include it in a top 5 list!
prostratedragon
@Immanentize: Thanks for the reminder, I’d only heard it once or twice and not recently. Lovely song.
The article sent me to this: “Military Polonaise,” Chopin, Rubinstein
Ruckus
@Mandalay:
Old and clueless about why maybe. Oblivious not so much otherwise he wouldn’t be talking about it at all. I can’t imagine no one has never said a word, he’s been this way for his political life. The only thing that possibly has saved him is that he never seem to be sexually attacking anyone and he does this to a lot of people. It’s almost his entire persona, lovable uncle Joe.
Immanentize
@Major Major Major Major:
I totally agree about affordable safe housing for all. Stable housing is the first and perhaps most important step out of poverty.
But home ownership? How about employment — good jobs that are more than just work.
Aleta
@debit: Cat looks like he has stories to tell and more stories to live.
Roger Moore
@Immanentize:
I think you’re grossly underestimating how important home ownership is to a lot of people. And, quite frankly, it’s objectively pretty important, too. Owning a home is a key to financial stability for a lot of working and middle class people. And because so many critical services are provided by local governments, owning a home in the right place can help people to access a lot of other social benefits, like good education. Seriously, there’s a reason people like Ta Nehisi Coates point to redlining as a critical way that blacks were cheated out of equal opportunity.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: Missed you downstairs. Do you have a time and place for that non=proliferation talk on the 17th?
rikyrah
@germy:
Yep
StringOnAStick
@Major Major Major Major: I think why Pete is pushing home ownership is there has been some public policy work lately that shows that POC got grossly disproportionately screwed out of their homes in Dubya’s mortgage meltdown, costing a huge amount of generational wealthy that just plain went “poof”. Poof, and now no longer available for this or the next generation.
Immanentize
@Roger Moore: Redlining wasn’t a tool that prevented home ownership. It was a tool to prevent ownership in certain neighborhoods. When someone says “homeownership” I frankly don’t assume they mean housing discrimination or else they would say that. Or is the word “discrimination” taboo in Democratic politics these days?
catclub
@Kay:
He never ventures beyond Trumpworld, so who knows about confidence.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
I’m not all that anal and I have copies of all of my returns for the last 10-12 yrs. It would take me maybe an hour to provide them. Can I be president?
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: My law school on Tremont. Room TBA. I’ll let you know next Monday? Probably one of the 3rd floor classrooms. I’d love it if you could make it!
ETA One of our first year students used to be in the Navy on both submarines and aircraft carriers. I love his stories….
Duane
@Kay: I agee with this statement wholeheartedly 100% with enthusiasm.
Both sides only applies in republican’s favor. Show us your tax returns Trumpov.
matt
@rikyrah: I guess I’m empathic enough to be willing to support any candidate who will fuck their shit up, just like the candidates they support want to do to us.
rikyrah
@Immanentize:
only from certain candidates.
Major Major Major Major
@StringOnAStick: I’m totally open to the possibility that there is more to what he said in his speech than the sentence fragment NPR provided us with.
He also addressed an issue that came up the other day:
Roger Moore
@Immanentize:
Redlining by itself didn’t prevent home ownership, but it was a key part of a systematic process of denying blacks home ownership. Redlining made it very difficult to get a reasonable home loan in predominantly minority neighborhoods, and obviously home loans are critical for working people to be able to afford a home. At the same time, there were restrictive covenants and other forms of housing discrimination that prevented minorities from being able to buy homes in white neighborhoods. If discrimination means you can’t buy in a non-redlined neighborhood, and redlining means you can’t get a loan in one, then you are effectively foreclosed from home ownership.
zhena gogolia
I don’t get why Buttigieg attracts such venom, I really don’t. Why is he so important?
I like things about all the candidates except Sanders and Gabbard. Harris is the only one who hasn’t said anything that’s irritated me. Yet. But I really don’t understand all the negativity about Buttigieg. I’m hoping he’ll help stop Sanders.
Amir Khalid
The Friday night English Premier League match just concluded: Southampton 1-3 Liverpool. Liverpool came from one goal down to win a thriller. They now lead by two points over Manchester City, who have a match in hand but more difficult remaining opponents.
Immanentize
@rikyrah: That is my growing suspicion. I must say I have pulled back on saying “racist” and have settled on either “bigot” or “plain jackass”. Both alternatives seem more satisfying rolling off the tongue.
SRW1
@Major Major Major Major:
There’s no way his candidacy survives that gaffe!
Immanentize
@Roger Moore:
Fair enough on every point, but I don’t think that is what Buttigieg was talking about. Not even in code.
Major Major Major Major
@SRW1: It could’ve been worse, he could’ve said Infinite Jest.
@zhena gogolia: Buttigieg seems to mostly be getting venom from the Sanders wing of things (and therefore, on the internet, where we all spend too much time). He’s definitely peeling away support in the white millennial demographic.
Immanentize
@zhena gogolia:
I think people’s reactions have been in response to the media super-promotion he is getting.
He is a Mayor of a smallish city. He talks pretty and has pleasant anodyne ideas. No serious accomplishments. Yet he will be President? Trump has set such a low bar. It is sort of humiliating as a nation, don’t you think?
Immanentize
@Major Major Major Major: or Knausgaard’s, My Struggle (book six now available!)
J R in WV
@ruemara:
This! I’ve already kicked in to Senator Kamala Harris’s campaign, as old white guy, that’s who I’m behind.
Smart, sharp, witty, progressive liberal Democratic candidate! I also like Warren, Buttigieg, Booker not so much. Stacy Abrams, also too, for whatever she want’s to try for.
catclub
@Fair Economist: I thought there would be some ‘gettable’ Labor votes for brexit.
But this tells it ain’t so:
Or it surely does not look that way.
zhena gogolia
@Immanentize:
I welcome attention to any person who is promoting ideas that are antithetical to Trumpism. He fits that bill.
catclub
@Immanentize:
If you are not a billionaire, these do not come by accident.
Obama had not done much either – (had no executive experience)
except run a campaign that took the world by storm.
Ruckus
@chopper:
Wasn’t he 18 not all that long ago? His father was born two years before me. He’s only 37, two yrs past the minimum age to run for president. And here we complain about people way past their sell by date running.
Aleta
Anne Laurie and cat people,
Debit tells me that code name Infinite Kitty (the young orange and white charmer) has begun his travels to the east. He’s inside a van, inside what sounds like a cat camper — litter, bed, dishes. Maybe listening to fellow traveller Minnesota Puppy who’s also headed for the coast.
His vet visit went well.
Just One More Canuck
@hueyplong: he’s approaching Mike Gravel status as we speak
Amir Khalid
@Immanentize:
My Struggle is a most unfortunate title for a book. It was the one a notorious RWNJ in Germany picked for his own tome.
catclub
@Major Major Major Major:
My actual favorite is probably the Divine Comedy. If I run for president it will be The Lord of the rings.
VeniceRiley
VeniceRiley2020 and my favorite book is I Am A Strange Loop
Fair Economist
@zhena gogolia:
Sanderites are upset that he might steal Sanders “socialist mayor who’s receptive to Republican goals” thunder.
Supporters of other candidates, I think, are upset that a young white guy gets to “jump the queue” ahead of so many other outstanding candidates with far more experience but either lacking a particular anatomical adornment or possessing it in the wrong color.
J R in WV
@debit:
By the way, I really loved your short video of the cat on the way to the vet. The sad violin music, the tiny mew of the kitty, his pink nose, all perfect.
I know you said the music was a coincidence, and that’s OK, but I choose not to believe it.
Immanentize
@zhena gogolia: @catclub:
So tell me about Julian Castro? What are his positions? How many languages can he say good morning in?
The notion that Obama didn’t do much is a right wing talking point used as a cudgel that stood in for bigotry. Compared to Buttigieg, Obama practically invented the calculus. First, no privilege in educational access, yet amazing accomplishments. Second, a serious career in his community. Third, Law Professor at a top-10 lawschool. Fourth, Big State (Illinois) State Senator. Then, US Senator (wins a race state-wide). The two are not comparable and it is a real disservice to Obama — and a fake elevation of Buttigieg — to do so. But that is what privilege gets you.
J R in WV
@zhena gogolia:
“I don’t get why Buttigieg attracts such venom, I really don’t. Why is he so important?”
He’s a good looking male gay, so many people are required by their socio-culture to hate him regardless of his ability to save their lives. Strange? Sure. But there it is, also, too!
schrodingers_cat
delete
scrhrodingers_cat
delete
schrodingers_cat
Test
schrodingers_cat
@Immanentize: All of what you said. And then dismissing anyone who is not as impressed by PB as a BS supporter or easily influenced. Or saying that they are jealous of PB because their candidate is not getting attention.
Mandalay
@Fair Economist:
I think there’s a lot in that. O’Rourke was getting similar treatment (“Who the **** is this guy? WTF has he ever done?”) before Buttigieg became the target. But part of their appeal is that they have a certain looseness that theatrical politicians like Newsom, Gillibrand and Booker lack.
Once you see the the pros leaning forward, nodding and overdoing their interest in mundane questions, always smiling or laughing a bit too much at the appropriate moments, and calling the interviewer by their first name far too often, you can’t ever unsee the fakery of their schtick. In contrast, O’Rourke and Buttigieg are also great communicators, but they don’t come across as phonies.
arielibra
@catclub
My actual favorite is probably the Divine Comedy.
Major Major Major Major
@arielibra: I believe he says the odyssey is another fave, which is less risible.
B.B.A.
@Just One More Canuck: I wish Gravel would throw a rock at him.
lamh36
@WaterGirl: Why would you assume she hasn’t listened to his answers and maybe wasn’t satisfied with it?
Not just that she just didn’t understand
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@schrodingers_cat: @Immanentize: Thank you both. This is exactly it.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@lamh36:
Um – similar to this concept, and I’m not just saying that because he retweeted a comment I made in that thread.
Roger Moore
@Immanentize:
I don’t think Buttigieg was talking about redlining. I was using it as an example of how home ownership is a really important issue because it’s a key to financial stability. I think people who dismiss it as a major issue need to talk get out more. It’s a huge pocketbook issue for a lot of people.
Roger Moore
@Major Major Major Major:
I having Herodotus’s Histories as my favorite book make me too pretentious to run for President.
jl
@Mandalay: Hate to be cynical, but a lot of it is probably short-run revenue and profit consideration dominating every other thing in corporate media. News no longer has any privileged space for loss leader or prestige. The corporate suits demand it make as much money as quickly as possible, full stop, end of story, no questions allowed.
Fox has kind of locked in the oldest of old viewers, so they aim at most profitable advertising target demo in that group: old white guys. Other networks, print media not so locked into older old people, so they want younger white guys to watch and click on ads. Guys of various ages tend to be profitable ad targets.
Hate to be cynical, but some of the bias comes from corrupt love of money to the exclusion of all else, or diligent observance of corporate fiduciary duty to shareholders, depending on your viewpoint.
debit
@J R in WV: I listen to classical music in the car so I don’t rage drive, and had it turned down. The Iphone just has an awesome mic, I guess. And I was so focused on the kitten that I didn’t even pay attention to anything else, just getting him being adorable before the light turned green. It was merely serendipity.
Ladyraxterinok
@rikyrah: GREAT!!
WaterGirl
@lamh36: I’m not sure that was much of an assumption on my part. All that was posted was this tweet:
Followed by rikyrah’s comment:
It seemed to me to be a clear statement that Buttigieg writing an essay at age 18 — admiring Bernie Sanders — was all it took to be oh so cancelled.
I admire rikyrah as a thoughtful well-informed person who contributes a lot here, and it seems to me there is more to the story — what 37-year-old Buttigieg thinks about Bernie Sanders now — and there was nothing in her comment to indicate that rikyrah was aware of his current view. And his current view changes everything for me; if Buttigieg still admired Sanders he would likely be oh so cancelled by me, as well.
WaterGirl
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: It seems like a pretty big stretch to go from someone liking Bernie Sanders when they were 18 years old to a dog whistle about race.
jl
@WaterGirl: If Buttigieg’s run is honestly for president (as opposed to a political audition of some sort), then clearly there are currently limits to his admiration. He thinks he would be a better president.
WaterGirl
@jl: I am pretty sure that someone (Buttigieg) who so admired a person for standing up for their principles and being a man of honor couldn’t possibly see Sanders today and see anything remotely resembling that description.
My two cents is that he honestly is running for president because he thinks these times call for the qualities he has. But the man isn’t an idiot – so I think he’s going to run the best campaign he can and will try his darnedest to win, while also knowing it as a long shot. I do not have a double-secret hotline to Buttigieg, though, so I can’t say for certain that I am right. But if I were willing to bet my house on anything, which I’m not, I would bet that Buttigieg is running for President, not for VP. Which isn’t to say that he wouldn’t take VP if it was clear at some point that he wasn’t going to get the nomination.
Dan B
@chopper: Thanks. The headline says, “Pete wants to be nice to Trump voters.” My hackles go up. But… It’s media. I’ve had lots of experience with em. They get 75% right on a great day. Then I read the article. He’s talking about people who vited for Obama twice and why they voted for Trump. And why telling these voters they are racists and/or idiots is not a strategy.
But, there’s that headline.
I don’t despise all Trump voters. They’re mostly low info and clueless. Trumps legacy is gonna hurt me, a gay man, no matter who is elected. It’s going to hurt my neighbors who are 30% black, 30% asian american, and 20% latinx or Somali. The courts are going to take away our rights slowly and painfully. But we need to appeal to the better angels of Trump supporters, and GOTV as thoug our lives depended upon it.
Go Kamala! And Liz, Julian, and Pete in that order.
Ladyraxterinok
@jl: Did his supporters support Clinton in the general???
I don’t remember him pushing them to support her!
Dan B
@lamh36: OMG gotta watch! She seems to get just tidbits of media compared to Wilmer, Beto, and Pete.
I used to believe MSM and then I dealt with it as an activist and then as a business. Accurate, informative, balanced. Well, maybe informative at times.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@WaterGirl:I
Easy for you (or me, for that matter) to say. Imma listen to the people being dog whistled about; you do you.
Dan B
@Ruckus: Seconded! Abrams (if she were running, but wanna see more first.) Harris and Warren.
I read that Abrams was not impressive at NAN. Have to look it up.
Ladyraxterinok
@Mandalay: This reaction of Biden’s is EXTREMELY stupid and super tone-deaf! IMO it shows he’s not living in today’s world!!
Dan B
@Uncle Cosmo: Pulaski Myway, My way!
Ladyraxterinok
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I thought something he recently said implied he was ‘sorta, maybe, semi sorry’ about his conduct of Anita Hill hearing.
Dan B
@Major Major Major Major: The wealth gap between black and white families is mostly driven by homeownership. It’s not just affordable housing but also capital and easier access.
A good friend worked on Black Dollar Days. The money raised went to entrepreneurs. The projects submitted would have competed with existing businesses in the black community. I don’t think it’s quite as true today but there still is a place for business education, mentorship, and experience – plus access to capital for risk takers.
Dan B
@zhena gogolia: My theory is the headlines make him sound like he wants Dems to like Trump supporters when he just believes that many of them have values that can be appealed to and activated – The ones that voted for Obama twice, to start with.
Also some Sanders supporters wrote some slanted and cherry picked pieces that were adept at seeming reasonable. That and he does seem at least a bit tone deaf on race and immigration. He impressed Al Sharpton at NAN but he’ll need a lot more than that (and Obama).
People have described him as a pragmatic progressive. With the panic that the Trump minions are creating that’s not a sticky message. I’m feeling like the GOP is at war with me , my community, and neighborhood. I’m willing to consider Pete’s strategy of not going to war with all of them but looking for ways to work with the ones who have not gone batshit crazy.
And GOTV, repeat, repeat!
Ruckus
@Dan B:
Which couple of dozen are those?
Snark aside, the number of people who voted for DT actually astounded me. But then I think I’ve known of the family and who Fred was and who he raised for decades. And I wasn’t wrong about that. I am of course not alone in this, many people knew or saw who he was. But 60 million people voted for this shit for brains who has lied for decades about himself, his money, everything. And given this country I’d lay odds that at least 95% of them did that because of his bigotry. Even if they won’t ever admit it. So I’m not talking about the 27%, I’m talking about the people that have pealed off of him after seeing how shitty of a human being he is.
dww44
@zhena gogolia: I agree with you in every respect. Wishful thinking, but at this point, why can’t we all talk about a candidate’s positives and not habitually harangue their weaknesses, faults, and negatives. I’m fearful that all these threads that tend to become vitriolic will bleed out into the wider Democratic world and we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot. We need to be united and positive. It’s too important that we oust the GOP from the White House AND from the Senate. Keep those 2 things at the forefront!!
Relatedly there was a good discussion this evening on Chris Hayes’ show with Barbara Boxer and Michelle Goldberg on Biden and his candidacy. And, before that, Joy Reid, as a guest pundit on Chris Mathews came out with a literate and full throated defense of the Democratic House being the only bulwark standing in the way of Trump’s dismantling of our democracy. Chris Mathews actually thanked her. Kudos to Joy for her wise and moving words and for not being interrupted by Mathews.
WaterGirl
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: If the original commenter wants to make the case that writing an essay about Sanders when you are 18 is a racist dog whistle, then I will gladly listen. You are the one who made the connection between those two seemingly unconnected things, and when questioned about making that connection, you didn’t have an answer for that.
Original Lee
@Just Chuck: I don’t care which year you bring,
Just release one entire thing.