This tweet below is a fairly common experience:
I don't usually get hung up about titles, but boy does it irk me when an introduction goes something like "I'd like to introduce Dr. Man 1, Dr. Man 2, and Melissa Garrido". Don't do this!
— Melissa Garrido (@GarridoMelissa) April 4, 2019
I have seen this behavior a lot. Right now, most of the work groups I’m on have a female Ph.D or MD as the primary investigator and team lead. It is not uncommon for them to be referred to as Ms. Doe while all the guys are referred to as Dr. Smith.
I get a massive amount of title inflation. My highest degree of training is a master’s degree and then an ungodly amount of on the job training and exploration. At this point in my life, going back for a doctorate does not make a ton of sense at this time. A doctorate might be something I do once the kids are in college but the current opportunity cost is higher than the benefit.
I talk with the press a lot. I talk with policy analysts frequently. I am a resource for Duke students, staff and faculty to talk about the arcane and obscure aspects of the Affordable Care Act (Silver Loading and Medical Loss Ratios for the win!) and more broadly insurance questions. I get a reasonable number of cold requests depending on the news, policy and semester cycles. /
If I am getting a cold e-mail from someone who is trying to set up a conversation about something I know something about, there is an even chance the greeting is Mr. Anderson. Most of the inaccuracies are for Dr. Anderson or Professor Anderson.
I get a massive amount of title inflation for something that I have not earned. I get that because I’m a white guy who writes with big words and arcane subjects. I benefit from this credential inflation. I always correct as Mr. Anderson whenever I’m referred to as Doctor or Professor as I have not earned those titles, but I don’t know how to change this situation so the table is not as inordinately tilted my way.
On the Road and In Your Backyard
JPL
Maybe having a female president will change that attitude.
MattF
My father was a physician, and so I learned at an early age that the title ‘Dr.’ means physician. I’ve always been uncomfortable being addressed as ‘Dr. F’. I’d be happy to address everyone by Mr. or Ms.
Did you know, by the way, that someone who practices metaphysics is a metaphysician, not a metaphysicist?
Chyron HR
@MattF:
“Please, my father is Dr. F. You can call me Victor.”
Cermet
Medical doctors so don’t deserve the title of “Doctor” since they do no original research nor publish for their degree title unlike “real” doctors – like chemist, sociologist, economist, many types of engineering or the occasional physicist (lol) that do this. Yes, I know, a tiny few do do original research either just after their degree or even before. The vast majority don’t and the title strikes me as unearned.
Amir Khalid
@Cermet:
An American law degree is called a doctorate, but no one calls a lawyer “Doctor”. I wonder why.
ArchTeryx
The funny thing is, when us bio-researchers are among ourselves, we NEVER refer to each other as “Dr.” anything, even if we’re grad students talking to our exam committee. It’s always a first-name basis, man or woman. We rarely ask even the public to refer to ourselves as “Dr.” anything. I myself have only used the title when talking to M.D.s, as a way of reminding Dr. God-Complex that I’m his educational equal (even if my career prospects are vastly inferior to his). It’s been very helpful when dealing with my fiancee’s doctors. Sexist doctors don’t take a 350# disabled woman seriously, but when I announce myself as Dr. , they stand up and bloody take me – and her – seriously.
Dr. does not just mean M.D., no matter how much they want to think it. Sadly, even the NIH and their study sections seemed to have fallen into that trap, since these days a huge number of R01s go to M.D.s – already making $250K a year – instead of PhDs – who trained their whole life to do medical research. Money always seems to flow upward in this culture, doesn’t it? But that’s a rant for a different time.
In any case, I don’t diminish women scientists like that. Whatever etiquette I apply to men, I apply to women. I just wish employers wouldn’t look at “Dr. ” and instantly bin my resume. :-/
ArchTeryx
I seem to have a comment in…moderation? That’s a first, I think.
Currants
Thanks for this, Anderson/Mayhew. It’s a good example of why I favor the Quaker first name custom. You can’t shed unearned privilege, but you can acknowledge it and work against it/in favor of those who have none.
Gin & Tonic
I had one professor when I was in college who did not have a Ph.D (*quite* an outlier in that time & place.) He insisted on being referred to as “Mr. LastName.”
Another Scott
It used to be worse in Germany, as I understood it.
Herr Professor Doktor Jane Smith
though thankfully that is no longer the case.
(Corrections welcome.)
There’s no doubt that women continue to be automatically treated as somehow not “real” doctors in too many instances.
Cheers,
Scott.
A Ghost To Most
@Amir Khalid:
Because Esquire sounds so impressive.
My feelings about titles is known. Show me what you’ve done. I worked with a few PhDs who were worthless in a practical sense.
schrodingers_cat
Five paragraphs to humble brag seem a little excessive, Dr. Prof. Anderson.
Cheryl from Maryland
The extension to this is that further references will be “Dr. Man 1” and “Melissa.” Not acceptable. My extremely old school graduate school advisor told me to always insist on being referred to as “Miss Washer” (he didn’t hold with “Ms.,” well, he was a young man in the 1930s, nor did he feel PhDs should be “Dr.”). Which stood me later as male curators wanted to be called “Dr.” and “Curator” but would call me by my first name, then get huffy when I started calling them by their first name. They soon settled down. Charming addition re my graduate school advisor, as he didn’t like “Ms.” and since I kept my maiden name after I married, he felt the precedent to follow was Elizabeth Taylor, who was always “Miss Taylor” to him. So as I was like Elizabeth Taylor, I was always “Miss Washer.”
schrodingers_cat
Snark aside. Credentials are important but knowledge and expertise are more important. There are plenty of people with a PhD (male and female) who keep repeating their research with a slightly different slant. So enjoy all the praise and adulation and respect, you deserve it.
Jerzy Russian
I always sign my E-mails to my students and advisees using my first name, but the rest of you may call me Dr. Professor Russian, PhD
hueyplong
@Amir Khalid: In law school most people ponder this aloud for about two minutes. Then someone laughs and it never comes up again.
Titles are for expert witnesses (overwhelmingly white males) and while fought over, they aren’t taken seriously.
Dorothy A. Winsor
One of my advisers said the only people who insist on being called Dr. are doctors of medicine and doctors of sociology.
OzarkHillbilly
Most people just call me “asshole”. They don’t even capitalize it.
SRW1
Herr? And no reference of the field?
What is this? Some sneaky form of an insult?
Jerzy Russian
Does anyone remember the “Highly Magnified and Thoroughly Educated” Woggle-Bug from the Marvelous Land of OZ? His title was Mr. H.M. Woggle-Bug, T.E.
SRW1
@OzarkHillbilly:
That must hurt! The lack of capitalization, I mean.
MattF
@Another Scott: I worked in a hospital one summer– there was a dignified old European physician/scientist who everyone addressed as Doktor Doktor.
@Gin & Tonic: This is actually the common practice at some rather snooty Universities. No one is called ‘Dr.’ or ‘Professor’.
Booger
@MattF: Did they reply “GIMME THE NEWS! I GOT A BAD CASE…”
Eric U.
People are weird about titles nowadays. I know when my boss called me “Mr. U” instead of “Dr. U”, I took it as the insult he probably intended. Calling a woman by her name instead of “Dr. —–” is probably not intended as being an insult, but it is a big one when everyone else is being referred to with their honorific.
When physicians started calling themselves “doctor,” they were appropriating the academic title to give themselves respectability. And at the time, they didn’t really deserve it. So it’s more than a little ridiculous to say they deserve it now and academics don’t. Academics had been using the term for hundreds of years at that point. I usually see that assertion from relatives of physicians though. I usually point out to people that feel that way that physicians started calling themselves “doctor” when the height of medical tech was bone saws and leaches.
A Ghost To Most
@hueyplong:
Cites facts not in evidence. Plenty of people skate their whole careers on title and college.
OzarkHillbilly
@SRW1: It was hell on a jobsite. Every time anyone tried to get my attention, dozens of heads would turn. Electricians, plumbers, iron workers, carpenters,… Who knew asshole was such a common first name?
SRW1
@OzarkHillbilly:
LOL
A Ghost To Most
Will Julian Assange soon be on the street?
currants
@MattF: Err…yes, I guess? I started at State U where we were all obligated to use our professors’ titles (or lack thereof). When I transferred to Elite Small College, virtually everyone used first names. My perceptions of their expectations for students were correspondingly different: at the former, they seemed to believe they were educating avg citizens, while at the latter, they seemed to assume they were educating future leaders–and their own future colleagues. I thought at the time (and still do) that the expectations at ESU should be expectations everywhere, since you never know and since, to a very real degree, people tend to rise (or fall) to the expectations we hold for them (assuming personal interactions–not just what we assume about people we never meet).
Amir Khalid
@MattF:
I understand that some insist on being addressed as “Doctor” once for each doctorate. Did anyone ever ask the Doktor Doktor, “Can you tell me, what’s ailing me?”
tokyokie
I had an uncle, now deceased, who had a Ph.D. in psychology who insisted on being introduced as “Dr. Blah Blah.” Because he was on the faculty of a medical school, people who heard him introduced this way assumed that he was an M.D., and, over the years, he’d picked up enough medical jargon as to perpetuate the false assumption. So my brothers and I began referring to him as “Uncle Dr. Blah.”
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
Seems like the main problem here is title deflation for female academics. Probably their wages are also being deflated. We should fix both problems right quick.
Raven
I busted my ass to get my doctorate after getting a High School GED in the Army. I rarely use Dr. except when I have to on conference name tags and the such. I will say that it mattered in my work heading up online course development teams. There were some real asshole faculty (almost always men) and being in their jive ass club meant something. I always thought Dr. PFC would look good!
Amir Khalid
There’s a curious practice among British physicians: general practitioners are called Doctor, but (male) surgeons are called Mister.
Mandarama
Physicians have won that fight—from the day I finished school, I feel like I’ve been shamed out of “Dr.” as a title. If I let anyone use it I might be letting them assume I do Important Things and make Real Money, as opposed to teaching and writing boring stuff.
That said, I’m a short woman with a higher voice and a Southern accent. When I was younger and I let my students use my first name, they were less respectful of boundaries overall. I probably didn’t know how to police them properly. Now that I am old and cranky and have mom authoritarianism behind me, I let them say “Professor.” (That’s their most common choice— they want to avoid trying to pronounce my last name.)
But I’m sure there are some colleagues would probably bow up at that too, because I’m not a full professor with tenure. We do love hierarchies in this country.
Raven
@Mandarama: I always call my MD’s and Vet’s “Doc”. Like, “yo Doc, whatups”?
Amir Khalid
@Another Scott:
Obviously, you meant to type
Raven
Here’s a great one from Quora
“Pam Armstrong
Pam Armstrong, former Retired ICU RN Knows tiny bits about silly stuff
Answered Aug 1, 2017 · Author has 649 answers and 685.2k answer views
Yes, it is. Although, sometimes I wonder whether it is earned or bought and paid by someone else, like fake boobs. My ex has a PhD, which was paid for by me. I got half the value of the degree in 2003 tuition prices in the divorce. So I guess he’s half a doctor, teacher, or whatever you want PhD to stand for and half idiot. He eventually recieved all the idiot part, with some asshole thrown in for good measure. Sorry-NOT SORRY.”
Matt McIrvin
I don’t go by “Doctor” but does my Ph.D. help me get jobs? Hell yes it does, though it’s completely irrelevant to my current line of work in the corporate world.
In the scientific correspondence I’ve gotten I have been incorrectly addressed as “Professor” more than once.
It’s “Mr.” outside of academia, and I always regarded Ph.D’s going by “Doctor” as pretentious, but lately I’ve noticed women with Ph.Ds insisting on it more often, and avoiding that kind of selective sexist degree erasure is probably part of the reason–another being that “Doctor” is specifically a title without the cultural baggage of a reference to gender or marital status. So I’ve been rethinking my earlier attitude.
esme
While the original example is straightforwardly bullshit, I think the issue of what to be called is complex. I’m a female professor in a male-dominate field and I struggle with how to have the students address me. On the one hand, I think a lot about the power dynamic in the classroom and try to reduce the power automatically given to the professor in ways I think are good for learning. On the other hand, I teach in an area of the country and at a school that is more stereotypically gendered than anywhere I’ve ever lived and students are much more likely to address me as “Mrs X” (and yes, it is rarely “Ms”) than they are my male colleagues. I think it is important to undermine these assumptions. My not-good compromise is “Prof X” in intro courses and my first name in upper division.
Gin & Tonic
@MattF: Funny part is his wife, who did have a Ph.D., was also a professor there, so she was “Dr. LastName” while he was “Mr. LastName.” Although he was British (she wasn’t), so maybe it was also snootiness.
I have to say I have a certain fondness for the Russian/Ukrainian/Byelorussian form of addressing someone by first name and patronymic: Petro Oleksiyovich, as opposed to saying Poroshenko.
Mandarama
@Raven: Ha! That’s a great solution.
@esme:
I do this too!
Leto
It’s pretty straight forward in the military: (Insert rank) (Insert last name). That goes for doctors and scientists, too. Only difference is for chaplains. That can be rank or (Father/Pastor/Rabbi/etc) but 99% of the time it’s (Insert rank).
@Raven: I won’t be sad to leave behind my military rank. Granted, I did work pretty fucking hard to earn it, but I think it’s an important step in the transition back to civilian life. I also admit I do seem to be an outlier in that regard (looking at the officers).
Edit: format fail/fix
Ohio Mom
@ArchTeryx: Whenever I land in moderation, it’s because I made a typo in my nym or email, and am being treated like a brand new commentator — first-timers’ comments are vetted by the “staff” before they appear. I assume this is to prevent spam comments.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I used my title only in some work related situations. Outside of that, it was irrelevant.
MattF
@Amir Khalid: One of those class things, I think… Back in the 19th century, surgeons were only one step above barbers.
Raven
@Leto: Yea, I busted my ass to make E-1 three times in three years! That ain’t easy but I did muster our as a Spec 4.
David Anderson
@ArchTeryx: In the office, agreed, it is 100% either first name or “hey you” but I am referring to formal social settings where there is a need for the lubrication of politeness instead of familiarity.
RAVEN
@MattF: Theodoric of York
In the Middle Ages, medicine was still in its infancy. The art of healing was conducted not by physicians, but by barbers. The medieval barbers were the forerunners of today’s men of medicine, and many of the techniques they developed are still practiced today. This is the story of one such barber.”
William: Hello, Theodoric of York. Well, it’s springtime, and I’ve come for my haircut and bloodletting.
Theodoric of York: Hello, William, Son of Malcolm the Tanner. Have a seat. Broom Gilda, you start on William’s hair, and I’ll open a vein here.
Broom Gilda: Yes, Theodoric.
Theodoric of York: How’s that baby I delivered last Christmas when your wife died?
William: Oh, the little fellow is deformed.
Theodoric of York: Oh, that’s right. I remember now. [ cuts William’s vein, as his blood spills into a bowl ]
Leto
@Raven: I can’t tell you how hard I’m laughing at that. I remember you explaining some of that and I still crack up. :)
Barbara
My first comment got eaten. When you are in this situation you need to quickly figure out a way to correct the person in a graceful manner that doesn’t make the situation even more awkward. In a situation where a woman is not given the same title as men of equal stature in an introduction, you can always just say something like, “It’s so nice to see that DOCTOR Jones is on the panel.” Or whatever else might work under the circumstances that makes clear that the woman has the same title. And if some people are the recipient of unjustified elevation, you can say almost like a joke, “we appreciate the promotion, but really, we are just addressed as Mr. or Ms. professionally.” The point is to keep it light and fast and not judgmental, as it is almost always the case that no slight was intended.
geg6
It definitely happens all the time here. And can I just point out another unconsciously sexist thing when it comes to titles?
I am almost never called Ms. or Miss. If they don’t call me by the first name, everyone calls me Mrs. It’s just assumed that I’m married. I hate that and wish everyone would stop with that shit. I didn’t marry because I didn’t want to, never had a desire to and wouldn’t if you gave me a million dollars. I’m not a Mrs., never wanted to be a Mrs. and resent it hugely every time people assume that I am.
Nicole
My former roommate is now an ordained Anglican priest. She was at a professional thing recently, seated at a table with several other (male) Anglican priests, and a Roman Catholic priest stopped by the table to introduce himself… to all of the men. He completely ignored my friend- not even to introduce himself with the assumption she was a layperson. Just skipped right over her. Fortunately, one of her colleagues was, as my 8-year-old would say, an upstander, not a bystander, and stopped him and said, “And this is my colleague, Canon Suzanne-”
My single favorite line in Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse, from Peter B Parker: “Step three. Re-examine my biases.”
Amir Khalid
@MattF:
And before that, surgery was a side business for barbers.
Raven
@geg6: When my first wife and I got divorced I had to write a letter to the power company to get it put in her name. That went over really well!
moonbat
@Mandarama: Screw that. My students call me doctor, my colleagues call me doctor, and sometimes I even make my husband call me doctor. I didn’t go through all the blood sweat and tears of getting a PhD. to be shamed out of the title now. A doctorate in anthropology may not be good enough for second reference in the New York Times, but it still counts. Don’t EVAH let them not call you doctor.
Raven
@Nicole: I headed a online math course development team and the dinosaur male math prof would not talk to the women on the team. He was jettisoned.
jonas
@Another Scott: You’re right that in Europe, esp. Germany, the wife of any academic or professional doctor (could be an MD, engineer, or a historian) would be formally addressed with her husband’s title, including “professor.” This is increasingly uncommon. But it gets worse. German and other European academics sometimes also include *honorary* doctorates in their titles, E.g. “Herr Professor Dr. Dr. mult. h.c. Klaus Schmidt”. That is, “Mr. Professor Dr. — and several times honorary Dr. — Klaus Schmidt.” *rolls eyes*
Back in the day when it was not common for Oxford dons to have a doctorate, and only holders of professorial chairs were called “professor,” “Mr./Mrs./Ms.” was the appropriate title. Other Anglophone academics in the UK and US often adopted this practice as well. It sometimes appears that it’s more egalitarian or something, but also has a bit of “Oh, back at Aaaahxfahd, we always addressed our professors as “Mr.” to it.
cliosfanboy
@ArchTeryx: my wife’s sister is a nurse and she told me to always use Doctor when leaving a message with a physician. I use my title with anything work related. I worked hard a long time to earn it. With colleagues I ho by my first name, regardless of their degree because were coworkers. But to students and in public work related events it’s Doctor tyvm.
Of course outside work it’s just me, no title.
Raven
@moonbat: Part of what motivated me to get mine was to spite all those fuckers who helped drum me out of high school (not that I didn’t deserve it) and into the Army. I always wanted to stick it to the system by surpassing them!
Barbara
@Nicole: He in fact might have been waiting for just such an introduction, being baffled himself that he had no idea how to address her whether she was or was not the holder of a theological title, being afraid, on the one hand, to insult her by demeaning her status, or on the other hand to have to be corrected that she wasn’t as important as he had made her out to be, in both cases, quite embarrassing. I’ve been in that situation, especially at my husband’s work events.
But my favorite title story was my ex-BF, a doctor, who was picking up a visiting surgeon from England. He said that the guy kept telling him to use Mister when he introduced him and he thought he was being modest, when finally he was told that in England surgeons are “Mister,” and other body part technicians (my term, not his) are known as doctor. My friend was flummoxed. Imagine being in a world where the title “Mister” was more respectful than the title “Doctor.” I sometimes refer to doctors as body part technicians, especially when that is what they are, e.g., ultra specialists.
moonbat
@Raven: Right! As far as I am concerned there are no “easy” doctorates. They all require brains and dedication and hard work. I am an expert in my field and my credential bows to no one.
Gin & Tonic
@Raven: Spite can be a great motivator.
Mandarama
@geg6: I *am* married and I have never ever wanted to be a Mrs.! I correct people, even sweet elderly ones. I didn’t change my name, so it wouldn’t work anyway. (I won’t hijack by getting into the flack I have taken for 20+ years over keeping my name.) I will confess too that I have sometimes had someone say “Mrs….or is it Miss?” to me and I say “It’s Dr.” If they’d used “Ms.” I’d be fine.
@moonbat: Hahaha! Point taken.
Raven
Degree inflation reminds of medal inflation in the military. They always make a big fucking deal out of “the winner of the bronze star”. Guess what girls and boys, if you were an officer and you showed up you got one. Now, with “V” device, that’s a little different.
Immanentize
@Amir Khalid:
In Europe, when I teach or travel there, especially the Germanic countries, I get the title of “Herr Professor Doctor Director.”. I just have a Juris Doctor and direct a legal clinic. But it sure sounds important! I like that they put Professor first. Something I definitely worked for.
O. Felix Culpa
@Barbara: Perhaps. But he didn’t introduce himself. Clue one that he either lacks basic social graces or that he’s behaving in a sexist manner by overlooking the woman. Or both. It happens and let’s not pretend it doesn’t. We don’t make those excuses for racist behavior, why are we so quick to defend sexist behavior? It’s still a thing and it does harm.
Brachiator
@Amir Khalid:
In the UK, Mister represents a higher class than Doctor. You still see this when a medical doctor has achieved a higher status through exams or other certification. From the Wiki.
Also, there was this weird nonsense that practical knowledge was inferior to theory. A doctor or surgeon who actually deals with a human body was seen as inferior to a physician who was a master of the theory of medicine. In reality, some of the upper classes were attended to by quacks while the poor and middle class were getting real medical care.
Doug R
Just call me by my initials.
Just One More Canuck
@Raven: What’s up doc, what’s cookin?
Raven
You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay but you doesn’t have to call me Johnson. . .
Raven
@Just One More Canuck: Funny you should ask! My bride (which some dork wanted to question why I called her that) has been in the UK for a week and I have not cooked ONCE!!!!
Immanentize
One more thing about the law as a scholarly pursuit — I meant to add this above. Getting a PhD is way harder than getting a J.D. that’s why lawyers should NOT be called “Doctor” in the US as a matter of course. Additionally, becoming a tenured professor in most fields is much harder than in law in that your scholarship is peer reviewed. In law, publication is generally derivative and is not peer reviewed but vetted by law students — and your return address (what school you teach at) is more important than what you write to student editors.
stardus614
I work in a firm where most of the top staff (including me) have Ph.D.s. My company president once introduced four of us to a new client as “This is Dr. X,, Dr. Y, Dr. Z, and Susie.” More than twenty years later, it still makes me see red.
Steve in the ATL
@Amir Khalid:
Because we are oppressed by the tyrannical majority! It’s totally unfair. I may move to South America just so I will be called Doctor.
“Is there a doctor in the house?!”
I am a doctor.
“Excellent! This man has been severely injured and needs help.”
No problem–I’ll file the personal injury lawsuit forthwith.
Another Scott
@Amir Khalid: No, Herr. I was told (years ago) that Herr went with Professor no matter the the gender (because when “Herr Professor” was introduced there were no women professors).
Let’s see…
It looks like it’s complicated because the word “professor” is masculine in the German language.
An interesting, short, discussion on how the University of Leipzig handled it.
Cheers,
Scott.
Steve in the ATL
@Immanentize: and the footnotes in law review articles are more critical than the main text
BTW, when I landed in Houston the other day, there were giant “RICE” banners hanging in the airport. I assume, owing to its proximity to Arkansas, it referred to rice rice and not riced cauliflower.
O. Felix Culpa
@stardus614:
And rightly so. I still can’t get over the fact that her doctoral advisor “neglected” to introduce my brilliant (NSF grant-winning) niece to Highly Esteemed Professor Bigwig at a major conference, while introducing ALL the male students in their small cohort. She was standing right there…and yet curiously invisible. Happened last year and was one of MANY slights large and small due to female. It’s still a thing and it does harm.
Brachiator
@Immanentize:
I don’t see this as a big deal, necessarily. Getting a PhD might mean that you may have studied some obscure shit, not that you have accomplished a goddam thing.
I would call a person by whatever they prefer. I’m not that concerned by the symbolic deference a person thinks he or she is supposedly owed.
Immanentize
@Steve in the ATL:
We saw those banners — we were at Hobby, so I thought that was probably intended for prospective applicants. Were you at Bush?
Rice is doing a big advertising push up here in the Boston area. First time ever. Maybe that helped the Immp this year. Lord knows he doesn’t crew.
And I ain’t talking Rice-a-Roni, either.
Steve in the ATL
@Raven: senior partner at my first law firm didn’t like dealing with, and I quote, “non-male lawyers.”
Steve in the ATL
@Immanentize: I was at Hobby as well. I refuse to fly into B***.
Amir Khalid
@Another Scott:
That’s just wrong.
Immanentize
@Steve in the ATL: What about “National” AKA…?
tobie
@Another Scott: You just call a woman “Frau Professorin. Herr Professor or Frau Professorin would be used in conversation if you are not using the name, i.e., “Frau Professorin, may I ask why you neglected to mention this study…” Once you introduce the name, you drop the professional title, i.e., Frau Schmidt, may I ask why you neglected to mention… Hope this clarifies things :-)
Steve in the ATL
@Raven:
I use “Sawbones.” Unless they are just D.O.’s, in which case I don’t speak to them at all.
Barbara
@O. Felix Culpa: Oh I’m not pretending it doesn’t, just pointing out that I have been in a situation where I was concerned that I would cause embarrassment if I presumed wrongly about another person in the room, such as, assuming that a woman was someone’s spouse when it turned out she was the managing partner. Or assuming that the male of the duo was the reason they were at the party, when she was the actually the employee. Usually, that’s where I elbow my husband and ask him to clue me in.
tobie
@stardus614: This is my experience every day! Titles and last names for men; first names for women. I don’t even respond any longer to the discrepancy.
Duke of Clay
@Barbara: When I was in PhD school, a British professor explained to me that “Mr. Smith” connoted a gentleman. “Dr. Smith” connoted a tradesman, and, as such, would be obliged to use the tradesman/servants’ entrance — not the front door.
Steve in the ATL
@Immanentize: it will always be National! Sometimes that airport can’t be avoided; it’s just too convenient. Fortunately the R***** R***** Parkway in metro Atlanta is nowhere near me and thus easy to avoid.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL: You might have to go through there on your way to South America for the titular respect you crave.
Nicole
@Barbara: From the way she told the story, he introduced himself to each of the men at the table, who then introduced themselves and their titles back to him. He then skipped over my friend, so I don’t think it was due to confusion; I think it was due to assuming she wasn’t a colleague and therefore not worthy of his notice or attention.
Nicole
@Raven:
Gadzooks. Makes me think of that quote from Germaine Greer- “Women have very little idea of how much hate them.” I guess some men are determined to make sure we get the idea.
Duke of Clay
@Gin & Tonic: When I lived in Atlanta I always connected through Miami to get to SA.
Steve in the ATL
@hueyplong:
True, but if it’s a civil case and the plaintiff is a PoC or female, the defense lawyers will turn over every stone to find an expert witness with the same characteristics to refute the plaintiffs’ case.
In employment cases, the defense team will always have a lawyer at the table who matches the race and sex of the plaintiff. My firm once came very close to having a pregnant lawyer defend a pregnancy discrimination trial, but the dang case settled.
Steve in the ATL
@Gin & Tonic: @Duke of Clay: there are dozens of direct flights from Atlanta into South America these days. Not that I am constantly flying down there to hang out with my BFF Greenwald….
psycholinguist
If it wasn’t already obvious, PhDs are on this blog like flies on shit. I’m called Doctor or professor in the classroom, and our faculty without the doctorate are referred to as professor. Students need to know I’m not their buddy, even if I am super cool. The honorific helps establish that difference in status when we are in that context. With grad students it is first names if they’ll do it. I find that southerners and students from some parts of Asia have a real difficulty using my first name.
Steve in the ATL
@Nicole:
Maybe it’s not so sinister–as an RC priest he’s almost certainly gay and was flirting with the men
Steeplejack
@SRW1:
Thanks, first laugh of the day.
Obvious Russian Troll
@OzarkHillbilly: That’s Mr. Asshole to you.
(A line from my pre-troll teaching days.)
LeeM
My wife is a veterinarian, so she gets doubly dissed. One condescending physician at a party made a comment to which she replied, “at least I’m not limited to one species.”
Mandarama
@psycholinguist:
Truth! and pure poetry, which is some of the obscure shit I teach.
randy khan
@Amir Khalid:
The actual reason is that legal ethics rules prohibit using the title unless you have one of the fancy advanced law degrees that also are doctorates.
I think this started back in the day when most law schools granted Bachelor of Law degrees, and just a few gave doctorates, and the bar associations didn’t want some people to have a competitive advantage because of where they went to school.
Fun fact: American lawyers can go by “Dr.” if it’s customary to do so in the country where they’re working.
Steve in the ATL
I was playing golf in Hilton Head with two friends a few years ago and we picked up a stray to round out our foursome. He introduced himself as Bob, and told us to call him “Dr. Bob”.
It was consistent with the behavior of almost every MD I’ve ever known.
Barbara
@psycholinguist: Yes, I do think a lot of times the insistence on using titles is to inform those who are unfamiliar with the people in the room just who exactly is in charge (which, in a medical setting, is almost always the doctor). Which is also why using doctor in a social setting is usually unnecessary, and it’s certainly not an insult to be referred to as Mr. or Ms. when you have a degree that confers the title of Dr. if you so choose to use it.
@Nicole: Yes, that would be rude, because it assumes she was there as someone’s guest.
Mandarama
@Steve in the ATL: “My friend Mel McGinnis was talking. Mel McGinnis is a cardiologist, and sometimes that gives him the right.” –Raymond Carver, “What We Talk About When We Talk About Love”
randy khan
@MattF:
One example is the University of Virginia, where everyone on the faculty is Mr. or Ms. because Mr. Jefferson did not use any other title. (Sometimes they actually refer to the place as “Mr. Jefferson’s University.”
Barbara
@Duke of Clay: Yes, my friend was totally discombobulated at the notion that calling someone “Doctor” might actually denigrate their status in society! Quel horreur!
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL: Well, from BOS it’s more often than not through IAH.
oatler.
“Doctor Phil”
“Doctor Oz”
Barbara
@randy khan: It’s not like Mr. Jefferson had any other claim on an academic title. He wanted everyone to be on a first name basis, but someone convinced him to go with basic titles like Mr., Miss or Mrs. I think this was something of a reaction to serving in France and seeing how stifling hierarchies and the insistence on using honorifics could be, when it was also a way of claiming economic or other privileges over other people with lesser or no titles.
Mike J
@Steve in the ATL: Jetero.
Steve in the ATL
@Barbara:
Quelle horreur
/Omnes
Gin & Tonic
@randy khan: The degree my son is completing is called “Master of Arts in Law and Diplomacy” – but it’s not a law school, and I don’t think he’s taken any courses in either domestic or international law.
randy khan
@Steve in the ATL:
Of course it always will be National. And if someone complaints, you can point out that it’s still in the name. Nearly all of the people I know who lived in DC at the time the change was foisted on us still call it National.
When dealing with people who are required to use the R word by their employers (flight attendants, gate agents, reservation people, etc.), I generally refer to it as DCA.
randy khan
@Barbara:
True, Jefferson had no academic title, but he always could have gone with “President” if he wanted. (Although, technically, the etiquette rule is that there’s only one President of the United States, nobody follows it, and nobody ever has.)
cain
@JPL:
We have a female speaker.. it doesn’t change. To change conversations, you need allies who will change it. For instance, someone else in a group that was being introduced should purposely use Dr. even if the introducer didn’t. It’s a non-confrontational way of changing the conversation but still involves shaming.
cain
@Chyron HR:
Verily met, Mr. Frankenstein :-)
Barbara
@Steve in the ATL: It is actually feminine, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. I should have looked it up beforehand! Apparently, even native French speakers don’t agree on whether it is feminine or masculine.
randy khan
On this topic, for a while a local fertility clinic had a radio ad that referred to the members of the medical staff as “Drs. Smith, Jones, Doe, and Jane White.” I puzzled over it for a while, and realized finally that they wanted to make sure that women hearing the ad would know there was a female doctor on the team. But it still sounded jarring and kind of denigrating to her.
Barry
@SRW1: “Herr? And no reference of the field?
What is this? Some sneaky form of an insult?”
I don’t know the full details, but in Germany the titles used are highly specified, both culturally and legally. There are people who can use ‘Doktor’, but not ‘Professor’, and vice versa; some can use both. Apparently one can be prosecuted for misuse.
Barbara
@randy khan: Don’t laugh. My business meeting in Minneapolis finished early, and when I tried to get my ticket changed to an earlier flight, the ticket person gave me a free upgrade to first class because I referred to the airport destination as “National” rather than its current official title. This was some time ago, and it wouldn’t happen now, for other reasons, but I still laugh about it. DCA is the way I usually refer to it now.
O. Felix Culpa
@Barbara: An alternative approach is to introduce one’s self and allow the other person then to make themselves known. I started doing that when I was skipped over or unrecognized (for whatever reason), rather than waiting for someone else to intervene on my behalf. I can guess at motivations, but I don’t need to accede to them – and I can allow for the possibility that someone is merely shy, even if my take on their behavior is more negative.
PIGL
@Raven: “Dr. Ex-PFC”, you mean, Wintergreen.
PIGL
@Amir Khalid: I know, I know!
It has to do with the relative status of the two professions in the 18th and 19th centuries. Physicians were gentlemen, who had gone to one of the Universities, who mostly failed to save their patients. Surgeons were sawbones, barbers and beast-leeches, who mostly killed their patients.
Juice Box
I found that blue-collar young men were often unclear about what to call me, even whether I was a nurse or a doctor, but they would ask. Little old ladies liked to call me Dr. FirstName, but then they would ask me if that was okay. It was fine with me because I felt that it was because they were more comfortable with me. Now that I’m retired, I omit “Dr.” and “MD” from everything. The last time I was at a medical center an overhead page for “Dr. CommonSurname” made my stomach flip.
My husband, a science PhD likes the “Dr.” title. He worked in industry where they had to club each other over the head with titles rather than academia, though. He out-earned me by several times!
Philbert
Same as ever. The one time I did a geneology search I found my grandfather x times was a family doctor post Civil War. His wife was referred to as Mrs Dr Lastname. We’re not Germanic that I know of. Scottish, rather.
And then there’s Mrs Bill Clinton (ducks)
Barry
@Amir Khalid: “There’s a curious practice among British physicians: general practitioners are called Doctor, but (male) surgeons are called Mister.”
When that was started, surgeons were not doctors.
Nicole
@Barbara:
Even if she was someone’s guest, it was still rude to skip by like she wasn’t there. My grandfather was a big muckety-muck in the small city he grew up in, but he treated everyone he met exactly the same, whether they were a fellow judge like him, or the person pouring his coffee at the diner. It was one of the best teaching-by-examples I ever got in life. Just treat everyone with respect. I don’t know why it’s so hard for some people to do. But apparently it is.
stardus614
@tobie No one in my company ever repeated the error. I ranted loud and long later and then, to put the cherry on it, told it as a “funny story” to his wife and daughter at a party. No one in my company ever repeated the error.
Raven
@PIGL: Proud Fucking Civiian!
tobie
@stardus614: Good for you! Thanks for speaking out.
Steeplejack
At the other end of the “address” spectrum, I don’t like the universal trend of first-naming everyone, sometimes prematurely or inappropriately. I notice it most in bureaucratic settings, such as doctors’ offices. A twenty-something nurse or P.A. will appear in the waiting room. “Jane?” And some elderly lady gets up to go see the doctor. What’s wrong with “Ms. Figby?”
For myself, it bugs me because in these bureaucratic settings you usually have to fill out paperwork with your full legal name, but I have never been called by my first name except on my birth certificate and the first day of every school year. So the P.A. appears, reads from the form. “Rollo?” Jangle.
And then the doctor launches into his warm bedside manner. “Well, Rollo, what seems to be the problem?”
“Well, Bob, it’s about this oozing sore.”
“Uh, it’s Doctor Dillweed.”
“And it’s Mister Steepleton, at least until you’ve seen me naked. Glad to meet you.”
The last part of that occurs only in my mind. Usually I just say, “I don’t use my first name. You can call me Steep.”
Same deal when I get “personalized” e-mails from my bank, my health insurance company or complete strangers. “Rollo, do we have a low-fee credit card offer for you!” Ugh. It just reinforces that they don’t know anything about me. (Not that they do anyway.)
So here’s to a little Ms./Mister’ing, at least on first contact.
ETA: Not really that big a deal in the grand scheme. Mostly just wanted to join in the ranting.
Gravenstone
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Depending on the company culture, there can be a strong expectation for those employees without graduate degrees to address those holding them as “Doctor”. Ask me how I know …
catclub
@Currants:
“I wish thee to know that thou is an asshole”?
randy khan
@Barbara:
Hey, however you can get an upgrade, right?
(My favorite upgrade ever came when I had been hideously delayed and was getting on whatever flight American (long time ago, so basically a different airline) could give me to get from my connection at DFW to Austin. When I got to the gate agent, she asked where I wanted to sit and and I said “towards the front if possible.” She handed me my boarding pass, saying “I think this should be close enough to the front,” and it was in first. She could tell I’d had a bad day, and so it was just out of pure kindness that she gave it to me. And it turned out to be particularly good because the plane ended up sitting on the tarmac for well over an hour while thunderstorms ran through Dallas.)
schrodingers_cat
@Steeplejack: In India, at least when I was growing up, I haven’t kept up with how things have changed. One never ever calls a person by their first name, unless you grew up with them or went to school with them. There are two forms of address in most Indian languages (Marathi: tu and tumhi) (tu or aap in Hindi) and so on. Also no touching. Namaste, to acknowledge an introduction. Just joining hands together, not the sing-song Yoga class style namaste.
Villago Delenda Est
When I hear “Mr. Anderson” it’s always in Hugo Weaving’s voice.
Amir Khalid
@catclub:
Tsk, tsk. Everyone knows it’s
(An excerpt from my upcoming book, The Fine Art of Pedantic Arseholishness.)
scav
@Steeplejack: But that is a good example of the double whammy in the given example. First that the male colleagues are all introduced by their professional titles. Then, the female is not only stripped of her title, but moved into the personal form of address (no Mis/Mrs/Ms stage) – a more extreme example would be the Susie one above.. Americans in general tend to blur that last step, but it does exist and can matter. Rather like that odd moment where people I don’t know want to hug me as a greeting, umm we don’t know each other that well so
JR
@ArchTeryx: blame the translational research initiative. This goes back to the Bush admin.
Gin & Tonic
@Steeplejack:
Likely part of their HIPAA training.
Steeplejack
@scav:
“Hug me as a greeting.”
I make it a point—and always have—on meeting a woman to quickly get my hand out for a shake so as to allay any fear of being mauled/hugged out of her comfort zone.
Villago Delenda Est
@ArchTeryx: In the Army, at least, rank is a big thing, with one exception: higher ranking officers referring to lower ranking officers by their first name, which is considered to be complimentary, without regard to gender.
Martin
@Gin & Tonic: The university convention is to call all faculty ‘professor’. Nobody gets the ‘Dr.’ honorific because almost everyone carries the Dr. honorific, and it only serves to draw attention to the handful of faculty that don’t have a doctorate. I have a new colleague with a doctorate who looks all of 19 and is constantly assumed to be a student. Because she’s new, the ‘professor’ convention often gets forgotten during introductions just as David notes, and every time it happens it looks like someone just punched the spirit right out of her and it kills me because she’s incredibly hard working and dedicated, and I’d be wanting to burn shit down if that kept happening to me.
cliosfanboy
@moonbat: I love you!!!!
Kent
I used to work for NOAA, a science agency in which I worked with dozens of PhD biologists and oceanographers who never used titles and pretty much only first names or just last names. Only time I ever heard titles was when one might be testifying at a Congressional hearing or something.
Now I work in education and I run into the occasional pinheaded administrator who happens to have gotten a PhD in Ed from University of Phoenix or some such and without exception they all insist on being called Dr. Usually it’s men and they seem to love having women teachers address them as Doctor ….. it causes serious eye rolling from everyone involved. It’s the worst field I have seen for that sort of thing. And frankly a PhD in Ed is about the least rigorous academic path I can imagine judging how clueless most of them are.
raven
@Kent: Eat shit and die motherfucker.
Gin & Tonic
@Martin: In (at least some) research universities, there are faculty members who are not professors, but rather “lecturers.” Professor is reserved for the tenure-track research-oriented folks, whereas lecturers are focused on teaching rather than research.
Brachiator
@Duke of Clay:
Yep. Emphasis on class distinctions.
OTOH, Dr Smith had a cool robot buddy. And Robot was simply called “Robot,” with no courtesy title.
Imagine if google’s Alexa respnded, “Please refer to me as Ms Alexa.”
raven
@Gin & Tonic: When I was at Georgia Tech our center director was in a field where the masters was terminal and he was still “Professor”.
GK
@ArchTeryx:
A lot of those MDs also have PhDs and actually spend the majority of their time in the lab. They are still subject to percent-effort requirements, and as far as I know, only surgeons are eligible for <75% (usually 60% for them).
I'm still at the K phase, but I spend 75% of my time in the lab.
Some of us actually are trained for this and (even in academia) take a major salary cut to do research. We certainly don't get the R money in addition to the clinical salary. It's required to cover the non-clinical time. And just like straight PhDs, if we don't get it then no tenure and no lab.
The general grumbling from both sides just gets old.
Gin & Tonic
@Kent: You might be thinking of the Doctorate of Education, or Ed.D. degree, which is a pretty widely-accepted credential for educational administration, but is less rigorous than a Ph.D. The people I know in school administration who have the Ed.D. like to be called “Doctor,” but it ain’t a Ph.D, and if you read the Wikipedia page there’s a lot of confusion and controversy.
Kent
@Steve in the ATL: Not Rice University?
Kent
@Gin & Tonic: Right. I didn’t realize it wasn’t a PhD but then I generally do my best to ignore any administrators I encounter.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: I’ve known “lecturers” with PhD’s and I’ve had a “Professor” without a Ph.D. in a field where everyone has one. I’m glad I’m far away from higher education now.
MoxieM
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Well that’s a pretty fucking insulting thing to write. I wonder if you’d point that insult any number of European intellectuals who identify as Sociologists. Or at Adam Silverman (who can totally speak for himself.)
People who feel the need to denigrate other fields of knowledge merely reveal their own lack of understanding what that field comprises, of course.
And as far as the “Dr.” stuff, I’ve never, ever used the title even when teaching. I only used the “Ph.D.” when job searching. I learned from an early age that to do otherwise was just pompous and showing off. (Parents, grandparents, and greats held the degree.) And, historically — oh, I have post-doctoral history training–huh; (Like I said, you never know) anyway, historically scholars with the Doctor of Philosophy degree were entitled to be called Dr., while physicians only gained the privilege in the 18th c.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: In our program it was “less” rigorous because you had to do quant for the Ph.D .and qual for the EdD. I’m not in admin and I like to be called in time for dinner.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Many art faculty are terminal MFA’s.
Matt McIrvin
@JPL: A female president would result in extreme backlash and a wave of people ostentatiously addressing women as “Mrs. Husband’s Firstname Lastname” and claiming oppression by the vagenda of manocide if you object.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Like the difference between a Spec 5 and a hard Sgt.
Leto
@Villago Delenda Est: I’m glad I’m not alone in this.
Barbara
@randy khan: Lots of free drinks . . .
@Steeplejack: Give the nurse a break. She is trying to disclose the least amount of information possible consistent with regulatory requirements. There is a reason for it, in other words.
Barbara
@Kent: Those are fighting words! Tell that to “Dr.” Jill Biden. Yes, it strikes me as ridiculous too.
Cacti
To add to the confusion in the US medical field, since 2006, a doctorate of nursing practice (DNP) has now become the terminal degree for advanced practice nurses. So you now have Dr. physician and Dr. nurse.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Spanish and French does this, as well. Spanish, tu and usted.
@Steeplejack:
Hmm. I think I hear patients called by full name or first name. First name seems to be used more if the patient has been seen before and is known. We seem to tend toward informality in America. And maybe it’s also an attempt to put the patient at ease.
ETA. I have never used Mr. Co-workers and clients typically use my first name.
Dave
This has been a minor irritant for me since I received my DPM 41 years ago. Aside from the often crappy behavior I got from other health care personnel the whole idea that any of us merited the honorific of Doctor (Or that one was somehow more worthy) beyond the fact we had collectively declared it so just ignored the fact no original research is part of any physicians training program. I actually requested that I be addressed by my military rank (during my service) rather than the title Doctor
Gex
A lot of my female PhD friends have noticed that their male peers are becoming more casual about being addressed as Dr. just as they are fighting to be seen and addressed that way. The ability to be casual about degree attainment and expertise is something that might be easier for men, having fewer problems getting problems getting acknowledged in the first place. My friends now find they’re seen as b*tches for insisting on being called Dr. because Professor Dude Bro down the way is totally chill about the matter.
Kent
@Barbara: All I can tell you is that it causes a lot of eye rolling for teachers who mostly have masters degrees and years or decades of continuing education and honing their craft to be lorded over by Dr. X administrators who haven’t been in the classroom and did some sort of observational research decades ago.
I see it especially with male administrators relating to female teachers whom they often micromanage and don’t give a lot of professional respect or autonomy.
Brachiator
@Matt McIrvin:
Americans need to get over ourselves. Other countries have women leaders and the world still turns.
Martin
@Gin & Tonic: We’re a research university but we don’t have research-only faculty. We have post-docs, but that’s it. Everyone here either teaches or does administrative service. It does simplify things a fair bit. We have some faculty that are so research productive that it’s honestly a bit financially dumb to have them teaching, but the pandoras box that opens up isn’t worth it. In fact, we’ve moved the other way – faculty that teach but whose only research requirement is on pedagogy. That too creates challenges, but they’re much better challenges for the institution.
I think PhD granting institutions tend to be a bit more relaxed about the Dr honorific because there are so many running around. The only time we use ‘doctor’ is with a student who just earned it. It’s a bit like ‘happy birthday’. There’s a limited window where it serves as a positive acknowledgement, but after a little bit we’re all ‘get to fucking work like the rest of us’.
Brachiator
@Kent:
But I don’t think you get a title with a Masters degree or decades of continuing education. The system of titles is arbitrary. It ain’t no big deal.
Also, I deeply respect teachers and come from a family of teachers. But I don’t give a teacher any automatic respect just because he or she has a Masters or spent years in continuing education. Too many teachers are middle brow dolts.
Kent
@Brachiator: My point wasn’t that teachers deserve honorific titles, but that in my own experience, school administrators are extremely title happy compared to other professions, and like to wave their titles around as a symbol of authority within school settings.
H.E.Wolf
@catclub:
@Amir Khalid:
As it happens, it’s neither.
When 2nd person singular was common in English, standard practice would have been “thou art…”.
In the Society of Friends (at least among Friends born in my grandfather’s era) it would be “thee is”.
It doesn’t “match”, and I don’t know why it doesn’t; unless it was a deliberate separation from the common practices of secular 17th century.
Amir Khalid
@H.E.Wolf:
Quakers say “thee is”? I am so disappointed with them.
J R in WV
@Cermet:
In Britain at least some medical professionals are Mr so and so, surgeons I think. I suppose some would be Ms. nowadays… maybe, it is Britain…
Also too, Medical Doctors (sic) tend to think that their “doctorate” makes them a master of life and death… far superior to mere Doctors of science or history, or politics, or, or, or… anything!
catclub
@H.E.Wolf: Thanks! I knew when I was typing I would probably get something wrong.
JeanneT
Quakers used ‘thee’ and ‘thou’ because when the Society of Friends started up in England several centuries back, ‘you’ was used as a formal term of respectful address to superior people, much as ‘vous’ is in French. ‘Thee’ and ‘thou’ were equivalent to French ‘tu’ and ‘toi’ – used to address one’s equals and friends/family. So Quakers addressed everyone in the informal egalitarian mode, and didn’t give special respect to the upper classes.
J R in WV
@Raven:
I was an E-2 for my whole military hitch, which I am proud of. Odd but true.
Was enlisted at the point of a gun during the Vietnam Draft era, really, just like the British squads sent into port cities to press-gang drinking sailors into their shitty Navy. I worked hard, did what was asked of me, handled scary dangerous cargo (torpedoes the most scariest!!) and left happier than when I started.
@Steve in the ATL:
Maybe, just perhaps, it was referring to Rice University ?? ;-) Dallas is close to Arkansas, but Houston, not so much. LA they grow rice there too…
ruemara
I’ve found I’m getting more irritated at how my title is always lost. Shit, my name is always lost. My jr designer put together the final manuscript for one of our pubs and put us all in the frontispiece, but made his title my title. I’m you’re senior, don’t make my title your title. Which is still better than my boss putting together a presentation of one of our major outreach efforts that I was a key piece of – and putting my jr designer on it only and forgetting me entirely. Recognition as a minority is critical. When people chop off your title or you, they are completely excising you from the accomplishments you’ve achieved.
catclub
@J R in WV:
oh, you’re no fun.
At the WW2 museum, it was interesting to see various people who served 3 or so years and never got past private. I think Vonnegut and
other writers were the memorable ones.
raven
@J R in WV: They gave me my choice, juvey or the Green Machine on my 17th birthday.
raven
@catclub: The vast majority of WW2 troops, just like in Vietnam, were in the rear with the gear. Rank was not easy in that situation. Vonnegut was a scout
ProfDamatu
@ArchTeryx: They do take notice, but I’ve only encountered one or two MDs who have called me “Dr.” once they found out about my Ph.D. (One man, one woman.) They do seem to be much more receptive to my bringing research to their attention once they know I’m an academic, though, so points there.
I hasten to add, I don’t actually want them to call me “Dr.” any more than I want anyone else to (which is to say, only in formal introduction settings). But it would be nice to have that little bit of respect offered once. :-)
ProfDamatu
@Matt McIrvin: Yes, exactly! I don’t particularly like the hierarchical assumptions implicit in titles like Dr., but it *is* nice to have an honorific available to me that doesn’t reference my marital status or gender. Since “Prof.” hasn’t caught on for that purpose…. :-)
J R in WV
@Steve in the ATL:
At least he has sworn a holy oath to despise all women. Perhaps unless they’re very young, or a nun…?
J R in WV
@Gravenstone:
When we needed to hire an FTE or contractor, we formed a little ad hoc committee to do the interviewing. Once we hired a guy with a “terminal” degree. He had an EdD from Fla International or some such school down there.
Worst hire I was ever associated with. Not good technically, an ass to co-workers, then got promoted (because of being Dr. Kelly) to manager, a position where he was able to torpedo so many things, including shop morale. NO one, NO one, liked or trusted him.
Eventually he stepped down from his management appointment, became a rote DBA doing mostly routine backups. Retired, died. Enuff said.
Raven
@J R in WV: Yes and that was strictly due to the degree he held.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Villago Delenda Est: …How did it take 138 comments for someone to make a Matrix reference? It’s like I don’t even know you people anymore.
I seriously wonder how often our esteemed Mr Anderson gets subjected to Hugo Weaving impersonations in real life, especially given what he just said about correcting people who inflate his titles. It was the first thing I thought of.
Matt McIrvin
@Brachiator: Sometimes I think Saudi Arabia will have a woman head of state before the US does.
Brachiator
@Matt McIrvin:
Now, that would be something to see.
EthylEster
@Steve in the ATL: Yeah, and the magazine subscriptions contain Dr. as well. Some physicians seem to think their title is part of their name.
EthylEster
@Barbara:
My dictionary is quite certain on this matter.
Take comfort that the difference in gender does not affect pronunciation.
Inspectrix
I sense some anti physician sentiment here, but I’ll trust the community and disclose myself as one.
Socially I don’t use titles and certainly don’t expect others to use mine. (And I don’t golf.)
At work though, it matters. As a woman in a leadership position, I see my male counterparts get called Dr in hushed tones of respect during Big Meetings. Female leaders get called by first names at least twice as often as the men.
Amongst my interdisciplinary workgroup and peers I go by my first name. Occasionally people say they prefer to use my title. It’s never wrong to be more formal.
With my patients, it is usually a red flag when upon a first meeting I am asked to be called by something other than Dr Inspectrix. It actually helps set boundaries when I kindly and firmly assert how I’d like to be addressed. Furthermore, I ask them how they want to be addressed and I respect that.
Barbara
@EthylEster: oh yes, absolutely, it is feminine. I looked it up, but I also found a survey in which many French speakers classified it incorrectly.