Atrios has a good post about the effort to talk (down) to Trump voters:
My whole time “in” politics centrist goobers have been talking about cracking the code to speak in the mysterious languages spoken by people not in their social circles. The Real American has taken various forms in this popular conception, though I will say in the past this mythic creature seemed to bear some relationship to actual people, while the media’s creation of The Trump Voter or the (white) Working Class in this latest chapter of their novel seems to be almost wholly fiction. Not that Trump voters don’t exist – they obviously do – they just aren’t recognizable in any of the portraits painted of them by the Art School graduates at the New York Times.
The only thing worse than this centrist goober effort to talk to heartland voters to connect with their genuine values is the manufacturing of positions that are supposed to appeal to some imaginary centrist heartland voter. The same people who imagine themselves as the Dr. Dolittle of the heartland voter are the ones who have appointed themselves of arbiters of what supposed centrists will accept. These Dolittles tell us that the imaginary heartland voter is a very flighty bird, who can accept almost nothing that deviates from whatever status quo our Dolittle thinks “appropriate”. Of course, Dolittle, being far more sophisticated than the heartland voter, knows that Medicare for All or the Green New Deal or whatever other liberal position is the “right” thing to do, but they are afraid the poor heartland dolts just can’t accept it, as much as Dolittle would like them to. So, sadly, we can’t have nice things, because some imaginary centrist voter just won’t accept it.
The fact is that heartland voters will accept a wide variety of “radical” positions. I especially think that Dolittle has been behind the curve of what kind of healthcare policy people will accept. And most people hold a variety of strong positions on different issues (against gun control but for Medicare for All, for example) instead of wishy-washy mid-ground positions, so there’s no point in a milquetoast politics in the first place, since nobody holds those views.
Hunter Gathers
If only Democrats could come up with way of saying “I support Unions, universal health care coverage and telling all the uppity blacks, bitches and ‘spics to shut the fuck up” without upsetting ‘Those’ people.
Perhaps the woke mayonnaise sandwich Mayor Pete can find a way.
Mary Harris-Jones
“Trump voters” have only voted for Trump once in their lives.
They are reachable.
Democrats need to fight for every vote. Not by shaving their positions a la 1990s era New Democrats, but by staking out clear positions that benefit the working and middle class.
Brachiator
You keep beating the ideological dead horse that all centrism is by definition, weak and wrong. And being “radical” is its own reward, without regard to the details of any particular policy or belief.
You get points, for consistency, I guess.
I recently read comments reacting to a Young Turks YouTube clip of Cenk bashing Obama for criticizing progressives. The majority of posters dismissed Obama as a centrist, a corporate sell-out and neoliberal shill who deliberately sandbagged single payer in order to push the useless Affordable Care Act. The only true progressive president was dead FDR, whose chosen avatar is the Blessed Bernie Sanders. Who, oddly enough, seems to want to engage Trump voters.
He’s radical. They’re radical. Must be love.
RepubAnon
The Dolittle thinking will do little to address the problem. The trick is to listen to voter concerns, and address them.
It’ll depend in large part on countering Republican “zero sum” propaganda – where letting “those others” have any rights means taking rights away from the rest of us.
West of the Rockies
I’ve seen tv commercials similarly trying to appeal to heartland consumers (usually it’s a passenger truck commercial).
The voiceover begins, “Out here, we work hard…”
Oh? Because where the rest of us live, we don’t work hard. Nor do we play hard or value dependability, or even honesty.//
There are lots of slow-motion images of unshaved, burly white men between the ages of 30-60. Throw in a squinting, leathery woman, a sweaty Native American, a few colorful Latinos at a Quinceanera, and you’ve captured, I guess, real Americans.
germy
@Brachiator:
Interesting, because if the YT had been around in the ’30s, they would have been denouncing FDR as a sellout.
Mandalay
I agree with that sentiment in general, but the specific example is unfortunate. In a Quinnipiac poll last month the question “Do you support or oppose requiring background checks for all gun buyers?” got 93% support overall, including 89% support from Republicans.
Democrats and Republicans (outside of Congress) agree on stricter gun control more than just about any other issue. Eric Swalwell chose to make that the top issue in his campaign precisely because it has very broad appeal on both sides.
West of the Rockies
@Brachiator:
Good points. I’m centrist (I think) on marijuana.
I think it should be legal for medical and recreational purpose for 18 and up. I don’t think you should be able to grow it anywhere and everywhere: it’s very pungent. I don’t want to smell it necessarily in public because of its powerful odor. (Even less do I want to encounter tobacco smoke.) I’ve used a dozen times and even trimmed for a couple seasons in the past.
But again, I don’t want people driving under its influence, nor do I want the smell every damn where. Here in NorCal, it’s pretty ubiquitous.
ETA (additionally) I think those views make me a moderate on the subject. I don’t think that’s bad.
Brachiator
@germy:
Very true.
PsiFighter37
The mythology about the goddamn heartland has got to stop. That’s as polite as I’ll be about that part of the country.
Brachiator
@West of the Rockies: I’m in Southern California, supported cannabis legalization, but also predicted that anti-smoking laws would be aimed at weed smoking. And I see legislation coming to ban cannabis smoking and vaping in many public places. I think a lot of people, in some areas, will ignore these laws.
And yeah, driving under the influence should be illegal, but I am not certain that limits have been agreed on. Could be wrong about this.
But back to your larger point, I’m probably easy to label as a centrist, but am probably pretty radical on social laws and abortion. But it still comes down to the specific law or proposal.
Chyron HR
It’s fascinating to see the entire cornerstone of Bernie’s messianic dementia–“I alone represent the will of the real white Americans!”–rebranded as something that only ‘centrist goobers’ espouse.
Mandalay
@PsiFighter37:
Maybe it”s just in my head, but is “heartland” generally used to connote decent, hardworking white folks in the same way that “thugs” is used to connote violent, black criminals?
NYT had an interesting article on where the hell is our heartland. They cunningly force you to vote among various options to read it, but it’s worth it.
MobiusKlein
And why are Republicans exempt from reaching out to, and understanding us ‘costals’?
It is always the Dems who are doing it wrong, and nary a peep when R’s outright insult city dwellers.
StringOnAStick
@Brachiator: Here in CO driving under the influence of pot is just as illegal as when drunk. I can’t imagine any state with any form of legal pot does not have similar laws. I don’t know if a blood test is required or what the numbers are but people definitely get arrested for driving while high here.
NobodySpecial
@Brachiator:
This is a misstatement. What is marketed as ‘centrism’ is analagous to Cole’s example of ‘Tire rims and anthrax’. There’s a very lazy strain of thinking out there that anyone with a working brain should admit which says ‘Democrats say one thing, Republicans say another, both of them are crazy on their ends of the spectrum, and therefore right in between the two is centrism.’
Hob
I’m not sure why Atrios thinks this kind of fantasizing about heartland voters is inherently a “centrist” thing. There are plenty of progressive politicians and activists—including some I’m fairly sure Atrios is very fond of—who use similar rhetoric, along the lines of “You guys [i.e. other lefties not in my faction] are just alienating the Real Americans/Working Class by focusing on things like [racial justice/immigrant rights/whatever is not my priority]. If we would just focus on [my socialist program], we’d be unstoppable because the Real Americans/Working Class are totally in support of that.” Now, that might even be true—it’s usually at least presented with somewhat more empirical support than the centrist version, e.g. polls indicating broad support for things like Medicare for All in very general terms—but I think it’s still iffy in the way it treats large groups of voters as others whose wishes have to be guessed at, while also putting them on a pedestal.
I also have problems with mistermix’s final paragraph. One is what Mandalay pointed out: the thing about gun control is flat wrong, unless you define “gun control” to mean something really extreme. The other is that I don’t think there’s any basis for saying that “nobody” (or even “not most people”) has any “wishy-washy mid-ground positions.” Outside of people who really identify as activists, I would say that the vast majority of people I know have many issues where they’d say “On the one hand, but on the other hand” and conclude that they’re not sure what they think but they don’t like extremists. Maybe that’s not a representative sample, but I have no idea why mistermix is so sure of this.
WaterGirl
@StringOnAStick: At least there are probably no high speed chases.
snoey
@StringOnAStick: Both Mass and Colorado have open container laws as well.
B.B.A.
I’m tempted to say “let them eat opioids” but that’s needlessly cruel even for me.
But I don’t know what to do with “Real Americans.” They’ll never vote for us, they can’t be debated or educated, if we swing left they’ll sabotage us, if we swing right they’ll sabotage us regardless because we’re not Republicans.
germy
@StringOnAStick:
Am I wrong to believe a drunk driver is more reckless than a stoned driver? A motorist under the influence of cannabis would seem to be hyper-attentive and paranoid, while an alcohol-impaired driver wouldn’t notice most of what’s around him.
Most stories I’ve read about car accidents involving cannabis; the driver was also either (1) drunk or (2) on pills or another substance.
EDIT: I’m not advocating any sort of impaired driving. I just wonder if there’s a difference.
West of the Rockies
@MobiusKlein:
I’ve wondered about this for years. We coastal elites must ever appreciate the work and values of homespun, wholesome, hard-working heartlanders.
They must merely acknowledge that we exist (as they would rocks, trees, and cow poop).
Brachiator
@StringOnAStick:
I understand blood alcohol level. I just don’t know what the equivalent is for cannabis. I’m not even sure it was mentioned in the initiative which led to legalization.
I know that in California, even passengers in a vehicle are not supposed to smoke cannabis.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
Another weird thing is that the Very Serious People seem to believe that no policy can ever be legitimate if the Heartland Voters™ don’t want it. Something could be polling at 73%, but if the Heartland™ isn’t on board, well, we just can’t do that. Sorry. I don’t get why these people are such fetishes for so many news people.
Brachiator
@B.B.A.:
This is not really true. In a number of swing states, people who previously voted for Obama later voted for Trump.
But I agree that there is no point in making a special fetish of “heartland” voters. Even the idea of “heartland” is noxious.
And the idea that the coasts are by definition “elite” is also dumb. Of course, it’s interesting to note that Trump was recently here in California at a big ticket fund raiser. And none of the dopes who voted for him were bothered by the fact that they could not even afford to buy a ticket to lick a spoon at this event. And they loved the idea that Trump was hanging out with the right wing elite.
germy
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
The news people feel more comfortable talking to the “heartland” folks (“they’re just like grandpa joe and cousin fred”) than they are venturing into a minority neighborhood. Which is why we need more diversity in the newsroom.
Felanius Kootea
As one of “those people,” I really don’t give a shit about wooing Trump voters. I do care about finding a way to get the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact adopted by more states. It eliminates the impact of the electoral college without requiring a constitutional amendment. I received a Daily Kos email today pointing out that Maine, Nevada and Oregon will debate joining the compact this year. The fourteen states (and 1 district) that have signed on are: California, Colorado, Connecticut, DC, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. Connecticut joined in 2018 and Colorado, Delaware and New Mexico in 2019. It is going to be taken up by state legislatures in Maine, Nevada and Oregon. It only takes effect if the states signing on represent up to 270 electoral college votes. The states that have signed on represent 189 electoral college votes.
So my question is how difficult it will be to get an additional number of states representing 81 electoral college votes? Maine, Nevada and Oregon together account for 17 electoral college votes. Pennsylvania has 20. Which other states do you think might be willing to sign on?
JR
If these folks made the case for reaching out to non-voters, say, I’d listen.
But Trump voters? Sure, if they switch, welcome aboard. But most of them — particularly the kind profiled in cletus safaris — can go fuck off.
Gbbalto
@germy: You are correct. Don’t ask me how i know…
Hob
@Brachiator: It’s a bit confusing, but basically: 1. There is such a thing as a blood test for THC level, but the science behind this is questionable (both because it’s unclear what the level means, and because blood levels dissipate quickly) and it’s unclear whether a more useful test is possible. 2. The Colorado law is broadly defined in terms of evidence that you can’t drive safely. That could be specific behavioral evidence like weaving, but it could also be an officer’s claim that you just looked really stoned. 3. The law also says that a certain blood THC level can count as evidence; however, you can only be required to take the test once you’ve already been arrested for DUI.
pluky
@Mandalay: Was amused by the author’s bemusement at Northern Maine being included in the Duck Dynasty fan contingent. Two words: Paul LePage.
Hob
@germy: “A motorist under the influence of cannabis would seem to be hyper-attentive and paranoid”
That’s not a safe bet; the effects depend on both the person and the strain of cannabis. Could also be sleepy and inattentive, or hyper-attentive to what’s on the radio but not what’s on the road, or hyper-attentive but thinking dumb ideas are good ideas, etc. Alcohol is still probably worse IMO, but people can both fuck up and be fucked up in many ways.
Fair Economist
@Felanius Kootea:
This is another one of those cases where “if we can pass it we won’t need to”. *All* of the signing states are now basically safe D states in a Presidential election, and none of them have had Republican legislative takeovers via gerrymandering. Republicans know that their only chance of winning election at this point is through an antidemocratic electoral college and so they will oppose the Popular Vote Compact in any way possible. So we won’t be able to get a meaningful PVC unless we can get state trifectas in states with 271+ electoral votes, and if we can do *that* we’ll win almost any electoral college vote anyway.
germy
@Hob:
Good points.
Jay
The reality is that the Democratic Party Platforms being floated so far, poll well amongst Democratic Party Voters, Independents, and all but 27% ( there’s that number again) ReThugs even in the so called Heartland.
Given a choice between positive programs that will help the Precariate, and the ReThug platform of tire rims and anthrax, Tax breaks for Billionaires, ludicrus lies, racism and White Supremacy, some percentage larger than 27% of ReThugs and Independents will vote the straight Nazi Party Ticket.
The Democratic Party needs to run in “the Heartland”, but just on policy, not on giving Deplorables a reach around, and by dismissing every MSM wanker who tries to gotcha them on Deplorables and Gullibillies. Don’t play to the “values” Culture War bullshit.
The Lodger
@West of the Rockies: I’m a bit late to reply, but I think your position is exactly in sync with Oregon law.
Suzanne
@West of the Rockies:
So if you believe Joan Williams in her book “White Working Class”, she talks about this. That cohort genuinely believes that they work harder and have less of an attitude of entitlement than, well, everyone else.
This is, of course, bullshit. But constructions of the self are next to impossible to demolish.
Major Major Major Major
@The Lodger: what a world, where “legalize weed for adults and keep driving while stoned illegal” is the moderate position!
The arguments nowadays seem to be about minority ownership of cannabis businesses, and amnesty for past offenses.
Jay
@Suzanne:
His specialty was alfalfa, and he made a good thing out of not growing any. The government paid him well for every bushel of alfalfa he did not grow. The more alfalfa he did not grow, the more money the government gave him, and he spent every penny he didn’t earn on new land to increase the amount of alfalfa he did not produce. Major Major’s father worked without rest at not growing alfalfa. On long winter evenings he remained indoors and did not mend harness, and he sprang out of bed at the crack of noon every day just to make certain that the chores would not be done. He invested in land wisely and soon was not growing more alfalfa than any other man in the county. Neighbours sought him out for advice on all subjects, for he had made much money and was therefore wise. “As ye sow, so shall ye reap,” he counselled one and all, and everyone said “Amen.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22
moops
@Suzanne: They believe that because that was reinforced in the marketing to that segment. If retail thought they could sell more product to Midwesterners making them think they are something else, then they will do that. I doubt you could get them to believe they are intellectual elites though. And there is no product to sell a compassionate conservative.
Lyrebird
@germy:
You can say that again! Or QFT or what have you.
I don’t always agree with Melissa Harris Perry, but the fact that she is *not* on the tee vee talking politics while the awful Chris Cilizza still *is* on the tee vee seems awfully wrong to me.
But for talking with other people… does anyone have a favorite summary of the numbers that show that the *resident won among Republicans across the board, including college-educated and high-income Republicans, and that on the whole, working-class voters voted for HRC?
karensky
@Mary Harris-Jones: ?% agree!
wuzzat
@Hob: Speaking as someone who used to live somewhere where everyone and their grandmother smoked weed, sometimes “hyper-attentive and paranoid” translates out to “driving 30 in a 55 at dusk with your headlights off,” which is its own kind of hazard. The drunk drivers were still a bigger hazard, but that’s mostly down to unpredictability.
FlipYrWhig
@Chyron HR: I think there are two different plays being melded here.
One is “the left’s” bizarre nonsense that white working-class people desperately want socialism but The Democratic Establishment won’t give it to them so they punish The Establishment by voting for ignoramuses and racists.
Another is the media’s bizarre nonsense that white working-class people just want Democrats and Republicans to come together and do the things the media thinks are Very Serious, like “entitlement reform.”
Duane
In the “Heartland America” where I live, the Republican party is for whites; the Democratic party for blacks. It really does boil down to that. All the rest is bullshit. When white people get past the ingrained racism they’ll vote for Democrats.
Ben Cisco
@B.B.A.:
@germy:
Just sticking these two quotes out there because they point to the crux of the problem.
wuzzat
@Suzanne:
I blame The Great American Novel. And maybe John Mellencamp.
Miss Bianca
@Felanius Kootea: Well, I dunno. The right-wingers here in CO have already started talking a recall for Gov. Polis because of the electoral vote compact. Among other things. (They are also talking recall of up to 60 other state-wide Democratic office-holders, because OF COURSE THEY ARE, the whiny-ass authoritarian sore loser shits, but that’s another story.) I don’t think they’ll succeed, but those types of antics could have a chilling effect on other states.
@Fair Economist: Or what you said.
germy
John Revolta
@Felanius Kootea: Florida and Michigan maybe? It’s gonna be tough- we got most of the big ones already.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
Somebody said they read that as Trump expected to resign and got all excited. Me too.
John Revolta
I looked at the time and it said 4:20 so I guess I have to comment. Smoking weed has very subjective effects on people; like drinking only moreso. Just as you’ve got your mean drunks and your happy drunks, you can have potheads who get all intense and studious, potheads who get silly and stupid, and potheads who just stare off into space. A friend of mine used to sell the stuff and he always got asked by customers what kind of effect such and such a variety would have, and always had to mention this before he answered.
Felanius Kootea
@Miss Bianca: A recall over that? Conservatives are relentless. So Michigan and Wisconsin probably would be close to impossible to get.
Felanius Kootea
@John Revolta: I think we’d get Georgia before Florida honestly. I’ve given up on Florida. Virginia might be a possibility.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
CAVC 23152 (f) It is unlawful for a person who is under the influence of any drug to drive a vehicle.
That pretty much sums it up, there is no lower limit. And notice it doesn’t ascertain prescribed, legal or illegal drug.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
CAVC 23152 (f) It is unlawful for a person who is under the influence of any drug to drive a vehicle.
That pretty much sums it up, there is no lower limit. And notice it doesn’t ascertain prescribed, legal or illegal drug.
eemom
Driving Stoned
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Absolutely! Which is why McGovern
wonlost 49 states.Brachiator
@Ruckus:
So, there are separate rules for alcohol.
Do we know anything about how much cannabis it takes to affect a motorist?
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Brachiator: youtube vs real life (link)
Brachiator
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
Real life and YouTube are both complicated.
Hob
@Brachiator: I replied to this above at #30. Basically, even though states like Colorado have picked a number for excessive blood THC level, the science is very unclear so no, it’s not really possible to say what level will or won’t affect driving. That is pretty typical for both legal and illegal substances in general; alcohol is unusual in terms of how specifically the level correlates to observable effects.
The Pale Scot
@germy:
No. The motorist is going to be very hyper-attentive about whatever they are focused on at the time.
Story
Back in the day, My best friend’s girl and I smoked sum, got into her ’74 Bug (which I saw as a deathtrap) and drove off. At one of the intersections, we were so engaged talking that we blew right thru a 2 lane both way thru intersection at rush hour. I realized just before and curled into a ball expecting to smashed.
Technology has to develop a test that measures pre-metabolized cannabinoids to indicate intoxication.
Redshift
@Felanius Kootea: I think Virginia is a definite possibility if the Dems take control. Virginia Dems are often overly cautious, but since the 2017 blue wave, they seem to have a better attitude of not re-starting the clock on deliberating once they’re on charge. I should really start trying to get this on the radar of candidates running this year. It’ll be especially good to have something to talk about that’s not “I support the things that all NoVA Dems already support.”
LivinginExile
@eemom: The funniest thing I have seen in a long time.