Fire at Paris’ Notre Dame cathedral was started by accident and is related to ongoing work, according to France 2, citing police. Either way it is terrible and a hideous blow to the symbolic heart of the city
— Luke Baker (@BakerLuke) April 15, 2019
The Guardian‘s got a live feed here. Per that story, construction of the cathedral officially started in 1163, and wasn’t finished for almost 200 years. As I recall, it was a site of worship long before that — every time repairs have been done in the lower levels, prehistoric artifacts are unearthed. It’s a terrible loss, to France and the world, but the cathedral will be rebuilt again.
Not to go all Sally Sunshine, but even in the quick clips posted by Cheryl below, you can see there was work being done. My first thought was that some unfortunate worker took a shortcut with an acetylene torch… or, worse, ‘improperly disposed of smoking materials’, which seems to be the cause of half the multi-alarm fires in the Boston area.
Which won’t stop the rumors / conspiracy theories, of course…
This has the very worrisome potential of being turned into a Reichstag-like conspiracy theory by the French far right.
— The Hoarse Whisperer (@HoarseWisperer) April 15, 2019
Major Major Major Major
I’ve seen tweets, but haven’t checked to confirm, saying that much of it was also rebuilt in the 1850’s
OzarkHillbilly
trump did it to get back at Macron for the arm wrestling loss.
Tenar Arha
So, I’m quite sad about this. I’m also reminded that cathedrals almost always died & were reborn by fire. (ETA Been thinking of this movie David Macaulay: Cathedral since I heard the news).
The French know very well how to rebuild cathedrals, as Reims demonstrates.
Here’s some slilver linings:
And
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Major Major Major Major: Yes, by Eugène Emmanuel Viollet-le-Duc, who gave it and many other French landmarks the look they have today, based on his own theories of gothic style and historical authenticity. “To restore a building is not to maintain it, repair it or remake it: it is to re-establish it in a complete state which may never have existed at any given moment.”
It will be rebuilt, but this is heartbreaking. The interior wood carvings … I don’t even want to think about it.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I’m beginning to question your commitment to actually helping out around here…//
More seriously, it had a significant refit completed in 1851. As I wrote in the previous thread, the steeple that went up and collapsed isn’t the original steeple. That was removed in an earlier restoration and this second one replaced it.
hitchhiker
I’m honestly kind of shaken at how personal & wretched this feels.
Think I’m experiencing it as a metaphor for all that has been and is now being destroyed while I watch & shudder. The climate. The US government. Great Britain. The post-war world. The oceans.
What a terrible day.
MattF
Paris was pretty much rebuit in the second half of the 19th century by Baron Haussmann. I don’t think Notre Dame was part of Haussmann’s project, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that renovations to the cathedral were done during that time.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@hitchhiker: It really does feel like we are at the end of days, but the end will drag on and on and be horribly – OK, girl, just stop. Deep breaths.
Anne Laurie
Notes from a professional firefighter (click on either tweet for more):
SiubhanDuinne
@OzarkHillbilly:
There’s already a meme of Trump throwing a roll of paper towels at the fire.
MagdaInBlack
@hitchhiker:
Like you, I have become fatigued from that feeling of ones heart sinking.
We’re worn out from all the history being made.
stan
Trump: “Get those pompiers out of the way and send in firefighters!!!!”
Betty Cracker
I can’t believe Trump opened his fat yap on Twitter and advised the French to use “flying water tankers” and “act quickly.” Wait, of course I can believe he said that. But good God, what an embarrassing piece of shit he is, in every situation. This is a horrible and sad event, and the less we hear about it from that moron, the better. But you know he’ll pipe up again, probably with a preposterous offer to use his skills as a “builder” to help the French rebuild.
Mary G
I’m waiting for Twitler to ask if the hunchback is safe.
Tenar Arha
@Anne Laurie: According to a Father Frédéric, who’s been at ND for 2 years, the artworks & relics were saved. via a reporter from Paris Match
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman:
Took you long enough!
currants
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: I hear you. Me too. Can’t believe how often it’s necessary to remind myself to breathe….
ruemara
@Mary G: Girl…
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I’ve had me doubts for a while, just now expressing them publicly.
AliceBlue
@stan: Thanks for the much-needed laugh!
eemom
Something must be wrong with me, because I’m not getting the emotional reaction everyone else seems to be having. Yes, it’s sad, but “heartbreaking”? It’s a building for fuck’s sake.
Flame away. (too soon?)
Adam L Silverman
The Chef du Pompiers Paris just made a statement that the next 90 minutes are crucial to determining if the fire can be contained.
Aleta
Reflects the brazen sociopathic beliefs that are running amok, more destructive than a consuming fire
Dorothy A. Winsor
I feel like some piece of the world I know is burning down in front of me.
catclub
@Tenar Arha:
GIANT 3-d printer project
catclub
@eemom: no, me too. My first thought was ‘its had a pretty good run’
MagdaInBlack
@Betty Cracker:
Betty, we know the stable genius always has an answer. Always.
Always wrong, always stupid, but …always an answer ?
Mary G
Translated from French by Microsoft
Good news: all the works of art were saved. The treasure of the Cathedral is intact, the Crown of thorns, the Holy sacraments. #NOTRE_DAME
MattF
@Aleta: I don’t think there’s a political point to be made here. So, maybe the EU should pass a regulation limiting the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere– but I suspect that would be unpopular.
Cacti
So glad I visited Paris and saw it last summer. But feeling very sad at the same time for what is lost.
How dreadfully ironic that one of the restoration workers seems to have started the blaze.
SiubhanDuinne
@Betty Cracker: @Betty Cracker:
Notre Don de Paris
NotMax
Not all that uncommon for errant sparks to smolder within a wall and then burst into serious flames sometime after. Happened to one wing of an apartment house a friend was the super of when work on the plumbing was underway. It was hours after the workers left for that day when the fire proper broke out.
John Revolta
Boy, is somebody gonna get yelled at.
Seriously though, when people start in about the French surrendering in WWII they don’t seem to consider that if they hadn’t, Notre Dame and most everything else in France would’ve been gone 80 years ago.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
Well, he probably had an aunt who attended a church, so he’s an expert.
;)
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
“Step lively you Frenchies!”
Stephen Miller stole his phone briefly.
trollhattan
@catclub:
Filled with marble and oak dust.
MattF
@John Revolta: “Is Paris Burning?“
West of the Rockies
@SiubhanDuinne:
Trump Cathedral?
Kelly
@hitchhiker: @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: @MagdaInBlack:
I’ve never been to Paris and I still feel a grievous loss. So much is falling apart. It seems a wooded place I love has burned every summer for the last 15 years. I often hike with a melancholy feeling that I may not see these trees again.
Cheryl Rofer
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne:
Trump’s to-do list:
–Pledge a MILL-yun dollars to Notre Dame restoration.
–String Pierre along for ten years without actually sending money.
–Get branding deal that includes gold TRUMP sign, Helvetica Extra Bold ALL CAPs.
–Keep Jared on it.
Emily68
I’m an atheist and the only time I wished I believed in God was when I saw Notre Dame bathed in golden light at the end of the day. It was so awe inspiring and I thought that it might be a good thing to have so much faith that I would be able to imagine building such a building.
sharl
Like a couple/few others here, I find this sad but I’m not feeling personally devastated by the news. (I saw Notre Dame ~35 years ago, but remember nothing about the visit).
Having said that, I found the following tweets interesting:
I know nothing of the relevant issues in contemporary architecture or French culture/economics/policy to have an informed opinion on these tweets, but like I said: interesting, at least to me.
NotMax
Le sigh. Fifteen minute power outage during the last hour. Just did the clock reset dance.
Quinerly
French Government just issued a statement that firefighters might not be able to save her.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Cheryl Rofer:
Hah! And they say the French don’t have a sense of humor. Eat shit, Trump
Aleta
@MagdaInBlack: grief piled on grief.
@MattF: I’m not sure what the point of that tweet was: economic criticism on its face but #familyvalues was pointed; its sum is ugly.
MisterForkbeard
@Cheryl Rofer: Water-bombing could collapse the cathedral? Called it in the last thread, and I’m not even a hotshot real estate developer.
Thank God I didn’t use my massive internet bullhorn to push that idiotic theory. Man, would that be embarrassing.
Tenar Arha
@eemom: And that’s okay. But if your question wasn’t rhetorical, it is definitely significant on multiple levels.
I’m a person who is mostly usually agnostic, & there’s two architectural monuments that provided me with what I called religious experiences, the Parthenon & Chartres Cathedral. Notre Dame was never my favorite but it means something to me bc Paris was like “life goals” for me when I was in college.
It’s a part of the history & fabric of Paris, & it’s significance as a symbol of that city cannot be undervalued. It’s actual architectural, historical, & archaeological value is also significant. For example
Well, anyway you get the picture. We’ve been watching a symbol, a cultural heritage, a museum, and a church burn down. Multitudes of people contain multitudes (ETA) of reactions
Seanly
What a terrible tragedy. I studied Notre Dame in Architectural History (this was a survey class so not in-depth) and got to see it when I was in Paris in the 90’s. Absolutely huge inside there. I saw that the copper statues atop the spire were actually removed a few days ago as part of the restoration – I do hope the other relics and treasures inside were also saved.
I am an atheist, but I can appreciate the expression of faith and source of pride of the architects and builders that the cathedral represents. My heart goes out to Paris and to Catholics.
Anonymous At Work
My money’s on solvent and bad wiring or grounding. Restoration and renovations like this involve flammable liquids.
eemom
AHA. Look at Cole’s tweet about Aleppo. He is SO my soulmate.
My heart breaks for the suffering of living creatures, not fucking objects.
Cacti
Wish I was joking about this, but the following tweet was issued for the benefit of flyover country:
Notre Dame (@NotreDame): A clarification: A fire is currently burning @notredameparis, not the University of Notre Dame. Our prayers are with all those involved.
piratedan
@eemom: depends on how you look at it…
Is the White House, just a building? The Lincoln Memorial?
I think for many folks Notre Dame is also a symbol, in addition to being a building and a house of worship. One, for its place in French History and secondly as a living museum of classical Western Civilization (if there is such a thing) for the artistry of the building itself and those items that were stored (and now supposedly saved) within.
Hence the reactions, for some people there’s a very real resonance, obviously not universal.
Betty Cracker
FlyingToaster (Tablet)
@Anonymous At Work: Hell, it could have been a nailed boot sparking on a metal ladder, lighting a patch of drying solvent.
mrmoshpotato
@Mary G:
You assume the moron has any idea who that is.
“Hunchback? He throws the soccer ball, right? Tom Brady is my favorite hunchback!”
SiubhanDuinne
I don’t feel like going through his Twitter archives to find out, but I’m trying to remember if Trump tweeted anything — anything at all — about the three black churches in Louisiana that were burned a few weeks ago. I’m guessing the answer is no.
rk
@piratedan:
I
If the White House burned down with Donald Trump in it, I will mourn the loss of the White house.
Cacti
@eemom:
So you grieve when a fly gets swatted, a cockroach gets squashed, or a mosquito gets slapped?
Or are your superior emotions reserved just for fuzzy wuzzy animals that speak more to your anthropomorphic preferences?
mrmoshpotato
@NotMax:
Pics or it didn’t happen.
different-church-lady
COULD THE WORLD PLEASE STOP SUCKING FOR FIVE SECONDS SO THAT I CAN CATCH MY BREATH?
Cheryl Rofer
NotMax
@mrmoshpotato
“Quasimodo? Hell, at these prices we deserve the full modo.”
:)
Mnemosyne
@eemom:
I’m sad, but relieved that it sounds like the portable and irreplaceable objects have been saved.
The walls and windows can be rebuilt, but tapestries and paintings can be lost forever, so they rightly prioritized saving those over saving the building at the cost of losing irreplaceable cultural artworks.
FWIW, I would also be sad if, say, MOMA or the Art Institute of Chicago burned down even if all of the artwork was saved.
different-church-lady
@eemom: Your local Walmart: just a building. Notre Dame: just a building.
If we still have Walmarts in 800 years, and they go out of business, will we miss them?
Gravenstone
@trollhattan:
I propose an improvement to your last point.
MisterForkbeard
@Betty Cracker: Going to admit I wasn’t emotional about this at all until I saw this. Wow. :(
NotMax
@mrmoshpotato
Tempus frug-it.
:)
different-church-lady
@piratedan:
On that we have some history to look to.
PJ
@eemom: certainly buildings can be rebuilt, but they are not the same. Works of art – in this case, the work of thousands of people over centuries – cannot be replaced. No doubt it meant as little to you when the Taliban blew up the giant carvings of Buddha in Afghanistan, or when ISIS was destroying classical temples in Syria. But this patrimony – the physical legacy of our cultures – gives many people joy and meaning. Hundreds of thousands of people every day visit museums, mosques, churches, temples, etc., because they contain the expression of human wonder. It’s no small thing to lose.
JR
Just a note, the French never rebuilt the Tuilieries Palace. To be fair, they were the ones that destroyed it.
different-church-lady
@sharl:
That would be incredibly cool. It would be the most historically authentic process possible — a museum made out of process!
PJ
@Mnemosyne: the stained glass windows were what I remember most about Notre Dame.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
The burning of DC was kind of a public relations disaster for England. The Prince Regent — who spent millions of pounds on architecture for his palaces — was horrified by the waste, particularly the Library of Congress (much of which had fortunately been smuggled to safety before the fires were set).
@PJ:
It sounds as though they were forced to triage the artworks and were able to save most of what was portable. It actually would have been worse to save the building but lose the paintings and tapestries to smoke and water damage.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
Those windows were actually full restorations from about 100 years ago because the medieval originals had been lost long before. They can be restored again.
Spanky
@different-church-lady: That’s not sucking, that’s gravity.
The Dangerman
I read someplace that the Getty in LA has VERY good active fire protection (like, state of the art, not a penny spared kinda protection); surprised the Cathedral did not.
Yeah, somebody fucked up with a torch or similar and once something that old gets that involved, you might as well just break out the Weiners and the Smores, it’s basically impossible to stop (although I saw Trump offered his fire expertise … asshole).
lamh36
PJ
@Mnemosyne: and I’m grateful for whatever was saved. But people who are not moved by art or architecture are like people for whom food is just fuel, and a Big Mac is the same to them as a meal at a good restaurant. I can understand it intellectually, but for me it’s like living without one of your senses.
West of the Rockies
@piratedan:
The Great Pyramid is just a pile of rocks?//
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
If you’re into that sort of thing, one of our local museums is doing a public restoration of the most famous painting in their collection, “Blue Boy,” and has a lot of videos and other documentation available on their website:
huntington.org/project-blue-boy
RandomMonster
Clearly the French should just rake more.
Anne Laurie
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: I am definitely into that sort of thing. Thanks.
Matt
Let us pause to compare Western and Japanese ideas on the life cycle of temples.
Steve in the ATL
@Mary G:
your translator didn’t finish the job:
#OUR_LADY
piratedan
@West of the Rockies: just stacked ineffeciently, yah…///
Aleta
Is it Cambridge ? Oxford ? that has a college chapel with a boat ceiling. They tell a story about a time when the 300-year-old beams of the chapel had become beetle-y. There was despair at how they could ever replace them. The college forester was consulted, and he knew about or found a record telling where the replacement trees for the chapel roof had been planted 300 years ago. The information had been passed down from each college forester to the next for all those years.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Cheryl Rofer: Trump couldn’t just express shock and sympathy for Paris’s loss. He immediately swung into offering unsolicited advice because only he knows anything.
Cheryl Rofer
J R in WV
AnnieLauire, check your email.
I’m totally secular, but this tragic fire hit me surprisingly hard. The history and centuries of love and adoration and worship add up to a cultural icon that we will not live to see rebuilt. Though it will be rebuilt.
We visited Notre Dame one pretty fall afternoon in 2013 and so saw it as it was then, no scaffolding, amazing archeological site under their parking deck, etc. We actually visited several churches and cathedrals in Spain and France during a tour of ancient cave paintings in that area.
Mnemosyne
@The Dangerman:
The previous thread had a link to some commentary by a professional firefighter. Short version, Notre Dame is basically a firefighter’s worst nightmare: huge open spaces, high ceilings, and lots of old, dry wood. There’s no way to put any kind of useful fire suppression system in there, because sprinklers and inert gases won’t work in large spaces.
Pretty much any museum or archive facility built in the last 30 years or so will have lots of redundant fire suppression systems with fire doors, sprinklers, inert gas, less-flammable building materials, etc.
But an ancient open space like that? The fire crews did as much as they could while they saved the portable artwork on the inside because there wasn’t much choice once the fire started on the roof.
Cheryl Rofer
This is Notre Dame before the fire. You can see the roofs that have now caved in, the spire in the center. Gives you some idea of how it’s burning.
Mary G
JPL
I have been glued to France 24 all day. For some odd reason it’s only available in the Atlanta area over the airwaves. Sometimes not having cable helps. You can stream it though.
different-church-lady
@Cheryl Rofer As far as being our face to the world, I think we should just start considering him President De Facto.
Steve in the ATL
@PJ:
Une autre bonne nouvelle: we still have Chartres!
Tenar Arha
I forgot about this too. Notre Dame as a geographical marker
NotMax
@piratedan
Wait, you mean it’s not a silo?
:)
JPL
@Cheryl Rofer: I miss him so much.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: The Huntington, you say, I think I’ve heard of them.
jl
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Trump seems to be going into radio shock jock mode on everything, and telling his flunkies to act the same way.
Glad the art was saved. And the religious relics, for those who value them.
Miss Bianca
@Mary G:
Damn it, I can’t believe you got me to laugh at something about Notre Dame burning down. I too visited when I was in Paris (thirty years ago now), and like a lot of others here I can’t believe how personal and heartbreaking this feels. I can’t even imagine how it must feel to les Parisiens.
lamh36
@SiubhanDuinne:
ETA: As someone said…this is some “all churches matter” bullshit…smh..
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: He did not. Nor about the US service members killed in Afghanistan last week. Nor those killed the week before in Syria.
piratedan
@NotMax: as arbiter of all things architecturally named, its not even a Pisa
Baud
@Cheryl Rofer:
The rightful current president.
Of course, any one of our slew of candidates would do better than the current set of yahoos we have.
bemused senior
@lamh36: Thanks for that. You always find great things to share.
?BillinGlendaleCA
OT: One of my pics is pretty popular over at Flickr(over 14k views). Y’all got to see it first(if you didn’t, here it is).
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s a photo from a police drone. Looks pretty devastated.
Miss Bianca
@lamh36: Oh, God, I remember that passage.
Aleta
@Matt: You mean like the Shinto shrine at Ise? It’s said that the complete rebuilding of it every few decades keeps the old techniques of wood carpentry from dying out. (I believe, not sure, some of the techniques are also ancient and sacred for Shinto construction.)
It’s said that traditional wood houses in Japan were not built with expectation they would last too long, because earthquakes and the fires they started and typhoons and their mudslides came so frequently. Japanese writers have said that this instability influenced design and techniques, and how materials are used. And that it also influenced the idea (in traditional arts and pastimes) of seeing beauty in impermanence and flaws.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
Not in the least surprised.
Mnemosyne
@jl:
Here’s a photo of the Crown of Thorns. Religious object, historical artifact, or work of art?
luchmir.com/Zhurnalistika/KarmadonEng_files/image016.jpg
Sean
@Tenar Arha: ND is far from my favourite Gothic cathedral as well but the location is what makes it. I’m in Paris now and my wife and kids were inside earlier today so it is a bit surreal. It will be rebuilt not quite as it was but still hopefully tol remain a part of the urban fabric in which it rests.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: His spokesman provided an all churches matter response.
MagdaInBlack
@eemom:
I realize that it is we who invest objects with meaning. This is an object invested with 900 + years of cultural, historical, and sacred meaning.
That is why people are reacting as they are, and one should not be surprised.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: Not mutually exclusive.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
The burning of the Black churches is different, because that was done out of hatred and bigotry.
Sad as it is, Notre Dame burning is just bad luck.
jl
@Mnemosyne: Thanks for photo. I just meant to distinguish the two different sentiments and values.
JPL
@Cheryl Rofer: This tweet was in the comments.. now it’s time for a tissue.
lamh36
Kelly
@Cheryl Rofer: It’s like looking down into a concrete campfire ring.
mrmoshpotato
@NotMax: You set the clocks, then threw them?
Stove must’ve been a chore.
Aleta
Hannah Groch-Begley @grouchybagels
I know this doesn’t help, but we have exquisite 3D laser maps of every detail of Notre Dame, thanks to the incredible work of @Vassar art historian Andrew Tallon. Prof Tallon passed away last November, but his work will be absolutely crucial
news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150622-andrew-tallon-notre-dame-cathedral-laser-scan-art-history…
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Exactly my point. ? Would jl say that the destruction of historic Buddhist statues by the Taliban was no big deal because they were also religious objects and therefore only have value for people who belong to that specific religion?
Cheryl Rofer
The conspiracy mongers are at work. Not gonna link.
Aleta
I’ve been to a VR-like representation of the Sistine Chapel on the internet. And a few other ones. I wonder if there is one for ND on the web.
Cheryl Rofer
And my guess is that it’s gone now.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: I think it’s difficult for people to imagine themselves into a historical mindset before money was the only thing we worshiped.
Immanentize
Has anyone yet blamed the Lannisters?
I love Note Dame, in part because I love Paris. But somehow this happening now feels more connected to the world at this moment. Like it’s an attack, not an accident.
lamh36
Some happier/good news.
Cheryl Rofer
mrmoshpotato
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Very nice Bill! Great long exposure.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Why can’t these people say something decent, for once? All they literally had to say is that this is a shame and a tragedy. That’s it.
Aleta
Please dog strike down any christians (like my younger sis) who might be tempted to interpret this as sat an’s warfare with the true believers.
Steve in the ATL
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Rhetorical question, I assume
Aleta
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Thanks ! I love that one. You artist you.
Brachiator
I have a double feeling about this. Pain that the building is on fire; and some awe and respect for the technological innovation that gave us drones to provide these amazing pictures.
Steve in the ATL
@Aleta: more likely it’s the fault of Henry VIII, John Calvin, and other fomentors of anti-catholic Protestantism
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
Mm. That reporting is contrary to what Notre Dame officials are saying. They’re saying that the Crown of Thorns and other important objects were saved.
Miss Bianca
@Cheryl Rofer: Are we surprised? No, no we are not. Not getting out of the boat.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Aleta: Thanks.
ETA: Baud still likes it without the Poles.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Mnemosyne: Sadly, no. Much of the great north rose window was original 13thC glass, and parts of the south and west roses were, too. It’s an irreplaceable loss. Even the best reproductions are not the same.
Mnemosyne
@Immanentize:
Don’t let yourself fall into a conspiracy mindset. Every indication so far is that it was an accident caused by the restoration crew. If nothing else, how do you picture a saboteur setting a fire in the same location where the crew was working without being noticed?
sharl
Never miss an opportunity to exploit a crisis, or something…
White nationalist types and their allies – many of whom apparently live on the dark side of my home planet, Realm of the Aesthetics-Challenged – are stirring to life with exhibitions of performative concern. “Intellectual” Ben Shapiro has lamented the damage the fire has done to this historical Judeo-Christian institution. Uh yeah, about that “Judeo” bit:
(found via tweet by Respectable Lawyer).
Expecting more such elevated discourse in the coming days.
On a more positive note, while the damage is truly awful, it may not be as bad as it has appeared from aerial photos; here’s hoping:
jl
@Mnemosyne: They are huge deals for different people for different reasons. For some people, big deals for both reasons, or several reasons: artistic value, historical significance, religious belief. That was all I meant.
MomSense
@Tenar Arha:
Thank the gods. I’m just so sad. I know that it’s only a building but people have a relationship with that place. When I was there (living briefly nearby), I saw the same people every day. They practice a devotional faith that is tied to that place, sometimes to a particular statue of a saint. They go day after day to light candles and pray, to remember loved ones. I just cannot cope with this sadness.
Mnemosyne
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
I keep seeing people saying that the glass “melted,” but I’m not sure that will turn out to be accurate. Lead — what they use to put the stained glass together — melts at only 650 degrees F while glass doesn’t start to get pliable until around 1200 degrees F, so it seems likely to this layperson that the lead gave way long before the glass would have a chance to melt.
I am not giving up hope yet that at least some of the original glass can be salvaged and re-incorporated into the new window.
I am sad about what was lost, but much was also saved from the flames and survived.
Miss Bianca
@sharl: Oh, I do hope the main structure is saved.
SiubhanDuinne
One fireman is reported seriously injured, and I do hope he recovers fully and quickly — but it really seems kind of miraculous that there are no other human injuries or casualties in a blaze this massive. Whoever was responsible for evacuating the Cathedral did a fine job.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Steve in the ATL:
It is. I suspect Macron’s opposition to Trump has something to with it as well. The GOP is a cult of personality. They expect everyone else to respect America’s laws/interests, but feel they can do whatever they want to the World and be worshipped for it. They confuse respect with fear.
At it’s core, Republican arrogance stems from entitlement. I used to say this is from the US becoming a super power. After all, practically every great power has engaged in similar behavior in the past. It’s the nature of power. However, the US has always taken from others throughout it’s entire history. Becoming the big kid on the block probably only exacerbated it.
Maybe, on some level, the GOP knows the world hates them.
MattF
@sharl: Shapiro is, apparently, an idiot. There’s a long and well-documented history of Jews in Paris– it’s repetitive, and not in a good sense.
Cheryl Rofer
They’re using the drones to show them where they need to be working on the fire.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Mnemosyne:
It was an inside job! /s
Spanky
@Mnemosyne: NBC is never wrong.
Aleta
@Anne Laurie:
in that thread is this:
I wonder if this is related to that thread from someone in S America who mentioned #familyvalues and said this fire = what’s wrong with France and Europe
Tenar Arha
Good thread by CZ Edwards on why dumping tons of water on the building was a bad idea
Brachiator
@Tenar Arha:
The original title to the novel is deceptively simple and to the point. Notre-Dame de Paris. But it has a double meaning: it refers to Notre Dame Cathedral, on which the story is centered, and Esmeralda, the novel’s main character who is “our lady of Paris” and the center of the human drama within the story.
And the Wiki tells us that Hugo was trying to revive interest in gothic architecture and historical buildings:
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
Wait, I may have even better news — I was misreading temperature conversions between F and C and glass doesn’t melt until 1200 degrees C, which is more like 2250 degrees F.
Don’t give up hope for the windows. More of the glass may be salvageable than people are currently assuming.
Gelfling 545
On the Monday before Easter in 2016, right about this time, my granddaughter and I were getting ready to go to a program of medieval sacred music at Notre Dame. It is a treasured memory and I’m so glad she got to see it before this tragedy.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@lamh36: No way were the “crown of thorns,” etc. kept in the spire. They were kept in the (mostly subterranean) treasury, and were saved. Not that a ragged bundle of medieval weeds, sold to a credulous king by the 13thC equivalent of a used-car huckster, should be high on the list of stuff to save, but it was anyway.
Fair Economist
@Mnemosyne:
First news, disasters, etc., you know the drill.
That said, since the spire was undergoing reconstruction the relics might well have been elsewhere.
Aleta
DANGEROUS links —
A friend sent me a Nat’l Geo page about the virtual rendition of Notre Dame.
I didn’t open any links on the page myself. But he just emailed to say that the links on it “download BUNCHES of spurious stuff… bad bad … I had to reboot to stop them.”
Adam L Silverman
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Because the churches in Louisiana were those of African American congregations. And that makes them suspect for people like the Vice President.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Fair Economist: I repeat: nothing was kept in the spire itself. That would be like keeping your important papers tied to the weathervane on top of your house. I’m guessing someone somewhere conflated the spire with the building as a whole, and the resulting garble is spreading rapidly.
karen marie
@Aleta: Murdoch bought NatGeo in 2015, so I’m not surprised.
PJ
@Mnemosyne: The Guardian indicated that the roseate windows were blown out by the heat: theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris-france-landmark-live-news (see the 16:58 update). If this is the case, I wonder how much glass would survive a fall of many stories.
Aleta
@Aleta: Re the bad links on the
the Nat Geo page :
“The links were to see some of the virtual panoramas. It said flash was out of date and then started downloading “Mac Clean Pro” and some Coupon thing and various popup windows that wouldn’t quit… pain in the butt”
@karen marie: I didn’t know that … what a shame.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
I’m still a bit skeptical, but I am by no means an expert in either firefighting or stained glass.
I suspect that the Guardian reporter is also not an expert and possibly repeated a garbled or incorrect report. Having a large stained glass window fall out of the wall and scatter widely because the leading that supported it gave way could look like an “explosion” from a distance away.
I’m thinking about the time my old RAV-4 got rear-ended and the rear window glass fell straight out and down, not in. Not what I expected at all, and more than a little startling.
Ksmiami
@Cacti: because people in flyover country are stupid and proudly ignorant. They keep providing evidence that this is the case.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Ksmiami: Eh, context counts for a lot. If you lived in a place where Notre Dame usually meant the university in Indiana, that would probably be your first thought.
I mentioned to two of my Francophone coworkers today that Notre Dame was on fire, and they said “Notre Dame in Montreal?!?” They’re from Quebec.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
Found the reference — the Guardian says that it’s an unconfirmed report, so I still suspect that bystanders saw the window(s) fall after the leading failed and misinterpreted the cause:
Glass is a very weird material and can be more resilient than people realize, especially when it’s been heated and is more pliable, so I’m maintaining my optimism.
Anotherlurker
I morn for the loss of a beautiful piece of engineering. I cheer for the salvation of precious works of art.
As an atheist I have to wonder what course civilization would have taken if Xtianity had not schemed, murdered and usurped itself into the position it now occupies.
This would be a fascinating subject of speculative, alternative historical fiction.
I will leave such things to the Jackels who are more brilliant and talented than myself.
Thoughts?
sharl
@Anotherlurker: I think that there are entire schools/departments/classes/institutions where such questions serve as the basis for their missions. Having said that (and fwiw as an atheist myself), I’ve pondered these questions myself.
One night long ago – at least in Internet Era time – I asked over in Atrios’ comments if any of the folks with liberal arts backgrounds knew of any scholarship that was in search of an equivalent version of the Unified Field Theory, but for explaining human nature.
Some time later I decided that my question was a bit silly: I think I had basically described the fields of Theology & Ethics (and throw Philosophy in there somewhere too, I suppose). But that evening it helped spark a wonderful discussion, especially when commenter OGAB* suggested The Golden Bough, which I’d never heard of and still have yet to read. {Even back in the day, Haloscan** comment pages were filled with shit more often than not. But there were occasional flecks of gold to be found in all the dung, and on rare occasions the discussions could be damn-near informative, even to the point of being praiseworthy, if not magical.}
There’s a fair chance a discussion such as what you’re suggesting would devolve into a flame war. Relatedly, it’s such a huge topic, with pathways & tunnels extending every which way, it might devolve into a huge mess. But seems like a comment section is as good a place as any to try it, if you have a mind to.
*Olaf Glad and Big, a wonderful person who is no longer with us. Occasionally I wish I believed in a Heaven so I could be assured that people like that guy could exist beyond their corporeal existences.
**Fuck to the corporation that bought Haloscan and promptly deleted its archives. In all the shit posted there, I strongly believe there were things worthy of scholarly research.
sharl
@Anotherlurker: In my previous comment I totally neglected the aspect of your question regarding “speculative, alternative historical fiction.” I’m the wrong guy to answer that, though I know such fiction exists. I’m sure the authors who post here could address that and provide some examples.
Amir Khalid
@eemom:
Yes, too soon. Also too, this is not some cookie-cutter office tower we’re talking about here.