Brilliant. Hits the nail on the head.
from @NewYorker pic.twitter.com/59CIOSbaNN
— Ryan Goodman (@rgoodlaw) May 31, 2019
"I had nothing to do with Russia helping me get elected."
-Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States
— Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) May 30, 2019
Are you allowed to impeach a president for gross incompetence?
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 4, 2014
Russia robbed the bank after I asked them to and gave me the money, but I didn't have anything to do with it! What, was I supposed to give it back or something?
— Mig Greengard (@chessninja) May 30, 2019
The president hasn't just refused to condemn a foreign power that attacked our democracy. He's also failed to protect the country's voting systems against future attacks. He betrays his oath every day.
— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) May 30, 2019
"I am completely and utterly perplexed by those who argue that perjury and
obstruction of justice are not high crimes and misdemeanors." — Mitch McConnell, 2/12/99.— Jonathan Allen (@jonallendc) May 30, 2019
.@realDonaldTrump undercutting his IC and saying Russia didn't help him get elected is exactly why Russia helped him get elected.
— Sam Vinograd (@sam_vinograd) May 30, 2019
If you're white and you're worried that law enforcement is out to get you, it's probably because you broke the law. Just sayin'. https://t.co/15hZCg9hU3
— Mig Greengard (@chessninja) May 30, 2019
.
For everyone saying “Congress needs to do its job,” yes, you’re correct. And I don’t say this as a reason to not move forward w impeachment. But roughly half the Congress is determined to keep the other half from doing that job.
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) May 30, 2019
Those attacking Nancy Pelosi, please remember, this is the leader who, faced with the likely loss of the first Speakership of a woman in history, still pushed through the most important health care reform since the 60s KNOWING it was a career-ending vote for some in her caucus.
— Greg Pinelo (@gregpinelo) May 30, 2019
I honestly don't know what Nancy Pelosi is planning, or if she has a plan at all, but people keep asking me to have faith that Jeet Heer and Chris Hayes know more about political maneuvering than she does, and that just ain't happening.
— Molotov Frappuccino Thrower (@agraybee) May 31, 2019
I think it’s possible to believe:
A. Trump fears impeachment
B. Trump craves being the center of attention, & an impeachment investigation & hearing would animate him, highlight his strengths, & probably elicit his most florid demagoguery
Neither is reason to or not to impeach
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) May 30, 2019
OzarkHillbilly
Big picture, folks.
Baud
This. Whenever Internet liberals try to push the Dems to do anything, it always takes the form of “everyone knows that doing X is the indisputably best course of action, so when the Dems don’t do X, it is because they are cowardly or corrupt.”
It’s never a discussion about whether X is, in fact, the best course of action, because the Internet brings no credibility to that debate.
NotMax
Happy Good Omens day.
Baud
@NotMax:
I finished all three seasons of El Ministerio. I heard it was picked up for Season 4. I wasn’t too crazy about Season 3 compared to the first two because I didn’t like the cast changes so much. Still, thanks for the rec.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: C’mon now, isn’t it obvious????//
Mary G
@OzarkHillbilly: Stealing your blech. Bletch? I was having the best sleep and a good dream I can’t remember.
Patricia Kayden
Maybe Speaker Pelosi will wait until next year to start the impeachment process. By then Democrats would have investigated the hell out of Trump in the House and will have all the evidence they need to impeach him. Nadler has said repeatedly that impeachment is not off the table.
plato
They should have used donny dick’s vocabulary, bet all the kids would have been stumped.
OzarkHillbilly
@Mary G: Sorry ’bout that. I didn’t mean to drop the dishes into the sink, they slipped from my hand.
OzarkHillbilly
@plato: Covfefe:. A warm morning drink brewed from fresh squeezed spittle, piss, and flopsweat.
plato
@OzarkHillbilly: Bidan.
NotMax
@Baud
Series is essentially silly but with enough clever moments and tongue firmly jammed into cheek bits to have made up for the obvious glaring lapses of logic and the unassailable ludicrousness of the premise. Velázquez was a hoot. An annoying hoot but a hoot nonetheless.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone ???
Immanentize
Happy Saturday, All.
In-laws in the house! Much running around this morning for the Immp’s gra-jee-ation. Then food. Then a nap. Followed by more food….
rikyrah
@plato:
????
They ran out of words???
NotMax
Coincidentally,. in the spirit of B-J comment pages, turns out today’s word of the day is persiflage.
:)
rikyrah
@Immanentize:
Happy graduation, Little Imma ???
Fabulous moment. Pat yourself on the back, Imma. You did it.???
Immanentize
@rikyrah: Of course the Immp did it all, but I got to be there for/with him as he did. And do the laundry.
NotMax
@Immanentize
If it’s Saturday there, could you maybe take a quick moment and provide the rest of us Friday’s winning lottery numbers?
;)
OzarkHillbilly
@plato: Bidan: A Dan split in two, so capable of making twice as many gaffes.
OzarkHillbilly
@Immanentize: You survived is another way of putting it.
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax: We don’t do persiflage here. Spittle flecked rantings is more our style.
germy
kd bart
@Baud: The internet is full of Armchair Coaching and Consulting Legends.
SFAW
@Immanentize:
Congrats to Immp! And you too!
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Is it made of steel?
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Heh.
SFAW
@germy:
FTFTFNYT
I would not be upset to learn that Baquet and Pinche Sulzberger had a 16-ton weight dropped on them, either before or after the Bengal tiger. (As long as the tiger doesn’t get hurt!)
germy
Betty Cracker
@germy: If Dean Baquet wants to identify the “real issue” with his organization, he should consult the nearest mirror.
debbie
Thanks, Anne. After hearing Trump’s statement on the I-word yesterday,
I wondered if he had previously said anything like this (from above):
Now I know.
debbie
@Immanentize:
Have a great day! How was that dinner?
germy
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-lawsuit-rep-jim-jordan-s-cousin-retaliated-against-ohio-n1011941
SFAW
@NotMax:
Don’t be so lazy. You’re close enough to the International Date Line that you can just hop over it (so to speak), and find out for yourself.
Must I ‘splain EVERYTHING to you?
germy
@Betty Cracker:
And the publisher. (And the publisher’s real estate dealings)
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
Seconded with a roar!
SFAW
@germy:
Still waiting for the first piece of evidence contradicting the idea that all Rethugs (and their enablers) are assholes.
Immanentize
@germy:
“(The) Times Passes Slowly….”
New song by Bob Dylan
NotMax
@Immanentize
Obligatory.
debbie
@germy:
Fear not, OSU will impose vengeance on the good doctor. They are about to strip his “Emeritus” from his title. //
Baud
@NotMax:
Agreed.
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
MJS
@SFAW: Kudos for the Monty Python reference.
Baud
@germy:
It’s like they want to prove me right.
Baud
@Immanentize: have an excellent day.
germy
OzarkHillbilly
@germy: Birds of a feather…
satby
@rikyrah: Good morning ?
@Immanentize: Congratulations to the Immp and his proud dad, and his proud grandparents.
plato
Von Bülow is dead. Fuck Dershowitz.
satby
@NotMax: @Baud: last night I mentioned Amazon original series Fleabag. Dry, raunchy British humor with enough really touching moments to keep me binging to the end. I’m looking forward to the next season already.
Baud
@satby:
I don’t have Amazon prime.
JR
@satby: don’t hold your breath, Phoebe Waller Bridge made it clear that there will only be 2
Leto
@satby: It’s out. Enjoyable series conclusion in that way of, “Noooo! This can’t be the end!” I do wish we could get the BBC shows at the same time that the UK does. Waiting a few months for them to arrive here sucks.
Baud
@germy:
Rachel deserves it for always promoting journalists on her show.
Roger Moore
@debbie:
There’s always an old Trump tweet contradicting whatever he’s saying today. Sometimes “old” means 20 minutes older than the current one.
P.S. I will be mostly out of touch for a while. Going to a conference and busy as anything for the next week or so.
satby
@JR: @Leto: Darn! Oh well, I still have Shetland and High Seas!
OzarkHillbilly
Headline of the Day? Firefighters haul ass after pet donkey found trapped in septic tank
JR
@satby: yep. With that and Catastrophe out, I’m finding that Amazon prime doesn’t have too much original programming for me. I’m not really into Amy Palladino Sherman so Mrs Maisel doesn’t work for me. The other original stuff is dross, although I did enjoy Man in the High Castle for dramatizing the uncomfortable truth that potential Nazis are everywhere. At least until the real world caught up with that fact.
Leto
@satby: @JR: I don’t know if Amazon Prime has it, but check for Peter Kay’s “Car Share” for another good comedy. Lasted for two series, with two final episodes to wrap everything up. So 2.5 series? It was very good.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Heh.
Cermet
@Patricia Kayden: There you go again; using facts, logic and good, intelligent procedures to address the problem. That can’t be what Nancy Smash would possibly do since we here at BJ, as well as the right-wing media, and internet commandos know far better – lol.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
You really have too much time on your hands.
Go out and build something, willya?
Kay
@Patricia Kayden:
I think you always have to consider the worst case when you make a big decision. Here’s the worst case with going forward- they start impeachment – even conclude in the House, say- and he wins reelection. Then what do they do?
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: In a bit.
jackmac
@NotMax: Can’t wait to see it. Loved the book.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@germy: yet they have no problem letting them appear on Morning Blow.
OzarkHillbilly
Measles for the One Percent Vaccines, Waldorf schools, and the problem with liberal Luddites.
It’s a long read, but on the mark.
Kay
@Patricia Kayden:
I just think they haven’t made their case. The best argument, to me, is “it’s a moral and legal imperative” because all of the political arguments are conjecture. They have to take me past “Democrats impeach in the House” and include the set of possibilities after that.
captnkurt
@plato:
Wonder if they used “banana”
Gin & Tonic
@OzarkHillbilly: From that piece:
Bullshit.
MomSense
@satby:
Last summer a group of knitters took a knitting tour of the Shetland Islands. They ran into Douglas Henshal and posted photos with him on Instagram. Then all the knitters/crocheters went nuts because of course we all watch Shetland while knitting. They ran into him again and shared what a sensation he is and he was very nice about the whole thing. He took more photos. He is apparently quite charming and nice in person.
Kay
@Patricia Kayden:
Trump is in his first term. Unless they impeach and remove him – which they won’t/can’t do- they are faced with a President who will be running and could win. That’s different than impeaching a 2nd term President. It adds an entire area of risk and none of them seem to considering it at all.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: The moral thing to do is to remove trump from the WH by any legal means possible. At this point, impeachment does not appear to be a feasible way of doing it
Plumb Bob
@Kay:
I guess I don’t understand “impeachment” proceedings. Wouldn’t the committee chairs all be Democrats? And wouldn’t they set the agenda? Wouldn’t they be able to end proceedings any time they wanted? As in, run them through the vote and beyond, if so desired?
Leto
@Kay: If that’s the case why are they even bothering to pass legislation in the House? It goes to the Senate and dies. Trumpov will veto it. So why bother faithfully executing your duties if you know it’s off to die? It’s all kabuki theater at this point.
“Convince me” is the new “I need a candidate who inspires me!”
OzarkHillbilly
@Gin & Tonic: My sons were reading before they ever entered school as a result of my reading to them every night. (their day care helped too)
rikyrah
Tommy Xtophernobyl (@tommyxtopher) Tweeted:
Elizabeth Warren Sticks to Her Guns as Meghan McCain Insists Fox News Isn’t a ‘Racist Organization’ https://t.co/5y4B9wxPJV https://t.co/Z2GHOQCFLN https://twitter.com/tommyxtopher/status/1134148531206479877?s=17
rikyrah
Liberal Librarian (@Lib_Librarian) Tweeted:
OK, for the morons in the back: placing tariffs on Mexican goods won’t actually stop those goods from coming in. Supply chains must be met. But, American buyers will be hit with larger costs. Really, Moron is the most economically illiterate to occupy the White House ever. https://twitter.com/Lib_Librarian/status/1134264612340191233?s=17
rikyrah
????
MuslimMarine (@mansoortshams) Tweeted:
My OpEd piece today via Newsweek:
“My 12 year old son gave me a list of Islamaphobic names he’s been called.
This is today’s America.”
https://t.co/V9ErUBSfw8 https://twitter.com/mansoortshams/status/1134083865499361282?s=17
Plumb Bob
@Kay:
First big TV ad buy from the Trump campaign; “It’s all a witch-hunt! Liberal Nancy didn’t even START impeachment! Why? Because she knows I’m innocent!!!!”
Cuts both ways.
OzarkHillbilly
@Leto: 2020.
Kay
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’m fine with the moral imperative argument. But they act like they are going thru all the steps and considering the risk/benefit and they’re not. Just say “right thing to do” and leave it at that. To not consider that Trump could win after or during impeachment? They really do have to kill the king. They miss and he’s a wounded animal with enormous power and no more elections coming up and no threat of impeachment because that’s already been used.
Leto
@OzarkHillbilly: Impeachment is the only legal means of doing it. If that’s off the table, then why are we even talking about this?
Sab
@Immanentize: Congratulations to you all. Our step-granddaughter graduated Tuesday, despite every sort of obstacle her two parents could put in her path. Wonderful girl. We are so proud.
ETA three parents (mother, father, step-mother.)
Marmot
@Baud:
Except that the 2003 AUMF vote and other historical moments taught us they’re often cowards. Just saying.
Gin & Tonic
@OzarkHillbilly: All of my kids entered school happily reading in two languages. But I guess I don’t know as much about pedagogy as Steiner.
Spanky
@OzarkHillbilly: How do you flush a donkey?
Kay
@Leto:
I don’t think that’s an apt comparison at all. I’m not arguing that the senate won’t convict- I know they won’t. I’m arguing that this theory relies upon a complete blank after the House starts or concludes the impeachment process and the set of possibilities includes a first term President who can run and win a second term. Would the GOP analysis of impeaching Clinton been different if Clinton had been first term? Is that a different scenario than “termed out”?
MomSense
@Immanentize:
Did Immp already figure out how to manipulate the space time continuum?! ?
Hope you have a great celebration. I had a few tears but mostly joy.
Because you mentioned legal seafood I’m going to have to pick up some sushi grade tuna tomorrow because I am now craving blackened tuna sashimi.
RedDirtGirl
@SFAW: Well, assholes have a purpose…
satby
@MomSense: Nice! One of the last episodes had the Northern lights as a background to the scene. Made me want to go there.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: All of us here feel the same moral imperative. The question is how best to accomplish it. If impeachment won’t do it (and it won’t at this time with the obstructionist Senate we currently have) then what will?
@Leto: Impeachment is NOT the only means of removing him from office. Another way is an election.
SFAW
@Leto:
I keep hearing that, and I thought I had heard that it’s based on a 1973 OLC memo/”finding.” Being too lazy to go look for that memo/finding — and I probably wouldn’t be able to parse the legalese anyway — I’m wondering if maybe it was written to give Nixon some cover. Kind of the way John Yoo wrote his bullshit to give W and Cheney cover re: torture.
Not that the Traitor-in-Chief or his minions would look at the memo and say “gee, this is based on faulty interpretation of the law.” But, if my speculation is correct, it might give the Dems another hammer.
Of course, I’m probably mis-remembering about the date, etc.
Kay
@Leto:
Start impeachment and Democrat wins- best
Don’t start impeachment and Democrats wins- next best
Don’t start impeachment and Democrat loses- worse
Start impeachment and Democrat loses- worst- absolute catastrophe
Sab
@debbie: Ahem. It is The OSU, not just OSU.
Leto
@Kay: I don’t think anyone has specifically asked you this, or maybe they have and I’ve missed it, but what specific evidence would move you to the “start impeachment inquiry” camp? Past, “This will 100% guarantee him removed from office”, what specifically are you looking for that will have you say, “Start now.” Are you looking for concrete financial shenanigans? Firm ties between him and Russia? A specific legal argument? Honestly curious because you keep stating you’re not convinced; ok, what will convince you?
OzarkHillbilly
@Gin & Tonic: I don’t know how much you read, but the schools come across as very cult like, trying to indoctrinate children with messianic visions with a high degree of enforced conformity. There apparently are support groups for recovering students.
SFAW
@Spanky:
Very carefully?
Ladyraxterinok
@Immanentize: Congratulations to your son and to you!
OzarkHillbilly
@Spanky: Very carefully.
Original Lee
@OzarkHillbilly: I blame the What to Expect books. They’re excellent but anxiety-provoking.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Too late. Hah!
Ladyraxterinok
@germy: NYT concerned about bias !!?
They’ll really do anything for Trump’s favor, won’t they?
Kay
@Leto:
I know it won’t remove him from office- that’s not my argument. So you don’t have to provide that. I would want to see some kind of count of D House members – a majority who want to initiate and I would want to see a consideration of what happens after that includes all the 4 possible presidential election outcomes. There’s another layer- all the possible congressional majority outcomes post 2020 which someone in Pelosi’s position should also do (and I bet she is) but I don’t want to figure that out, but someone could.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Beat me by thiiiiiisssssss much.
OzarkHillbilly
@Original Lee: One of the parents said that when reading the pamphlet she saw that “death” was one of the possible side effects, and said “NO FFFFFING WAY!” I wonder if she has ever considered that death is also a possible side effect of riding in a car? Or eating? Or breathing? Or sleeping? Or ad nauseum…
Spanky
@SFAW: THANK YOU! I have a real problem with legal precedent being set by an OLC of a President that was under threat of indictment. TWICE, if I’m correct in remembering that Clinton’s administration used the same memo.
Indicting him with this DOJ would not go very far, however. Am I wrong?
Caracal
Muller to Peolsi: “Here, your a girl, go cleanup the mess.”
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
That’s because my cunning plan (“Go out and build something, willya?”) distracted you for just enough time for me to get in there.
MomSense
Regarding impeachment, he has committed high crimes and misdemeanors OUT IN THE OPEN. He’s an unindicted co-conspirator in legal pleadings in New York in which his co-conspirator is in jail already. The media gleefully went along with the Republican narrowing of what constitutes impeachment to the point where we needed to get him on video giving Putin a BJ in the Oval Office while personally changing vote counts. Few have read the Mueller Report. Most of the MoC haven’t read it.
Nancy Pelosi is the best we have so I’m going to put my trust in her. Spending all this energy being angry at Dems for not doing what we thjnk they should is a complete waste of time especially when there are constructive things we could be doing. Here is a partial list that I’m sure all of you could add to.
Read the Mueller Report (it’s free on audible) and form small reading groups. Make it fun. Meet at a cafe or in homes. Do a shot of Russian vodka at the start- serve borscht – be creative with it.
Get some friends together and find an appropriate local attorney or professor and ask them to do a US Constitution teaching session. Ask the local public library or some other well known place to host it. Make it non partisan but ask about impeachment. Just WTF is an emolument anyway? The public is woefully uninformed and we can do something about that.
Call your MoC and ask them if they have read the Mueller Report. Ask them to comment on specific examples of obstruction from the report. Report the answer in a letter to the editor. Every MoC reads the opinion pages of the papers in their districts. They also read the NYT WSJ and WaPo. If you are in McConnel’s state, submit one to one of those papers or get someone you know to do it.
I’m listening to the Mueller Report now and I’m going to have a stitch and bitch at my house to talk about it. I called a friend who is an organizer with our local indivisible. She is also an attorney and I told her I would help put together events.
I hate meetings but this moment calls for all of us to go outside of what is comfortable because we are paying closer attention to this mess than most so it falls to us to bring others into the know. We can always have Mueller readings at dog parks.
SFAW
@Spanky:
Well, I’d consider “never happen” to be the functional equivalent of “not go very far,” so, no, you’re not wrong.
Ladyraxterinok
@Cermet: @OzarkHillbilly: They create their own bubble, with some surprising overlaps with the Evangelical bubble.
Leto
@OzarkHillbilly: No, impeachment is the only means of removing a specific office holder from office when they’re committing crimes. If you’re going the election route, what you’re saying is, “The office holder can do whatever the fuck they want for X duration, regardless of the legality of those action.”
@Kay: Actually I do feel it’s an apt comparison because that’s pretty much all of the commentary here is about: what’s the point when the Senate won’t convict? We start at that point and base everything from there.
No. The GOP was looking for any reason to remove him. Their miscalculation was he was a popular president (polling mid 60s) and people didn’t give a shit about a blow job. Contrast that with Trumpov who can’t get out of the very low 40s/high 30s, who’s admin is killing kids, and causing economic damage to the country (just for starters).
@Kay: Don’t start impeachment and at this point we’re basically admitting that a president, regardless of party, can do whatever they want and that’s ok. We received a 200 plus page report (Vol 2) detailing specific crimes the president committed. We’re not going to have a Saturday Night Massacre. We’re not going to have White House tapes. If we’re waiting on those… Republicans won’t be swayed by financial crimes. Republicans won’t be swayed by ties to Russia. They’re riding this train all the way to the end and we’re simply along for the ride.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Paging Mr. Kornbluth, Mr. Cyril Kornbluth!
Lapassionara
@Leto: I’m looking for financial records that provide support for the theory that Trump’s dealing with the Saudi’s, with Netanyahu, and with Putin can be explained by his desire or need to make money and/or pay back his investors. That would be a start. There is some explanation for his subservient behavior around Vlad. I think the most likely is found in his financial records.
gvg
@Kay: Impeach him, then convict him of regular crimes, then put him in jail. He’ll find it hard to run from jail. Also show how his wealth was used in crimes and confiscate it. Dissect his finances in detail in court. I think he doesn’t even own some of what he claims and is an organized crime front man.
he has gotten away with too much too long, way before the campaign for the Presidency came up. Also it’s not just him and Congressmen don’t have the protections he does. Investigations need to look into where else the dirty money was going. If McConnel is in jail, the rats will abandon Trump. Trump is stupid. He wouldn’t have won or not been impeached already if there weren’t a number of smarter crooks already in our government.
merrily
Speaking of worst case scenarios, how about if we don’t try to impeach, and Trump drops a bomb on Iran? Or the economy tanks again?
How about we don’t change the narrative from Trump quotes all the time, to daily evidence of his corruption, and he gets reelected? Hillary didn’t even do anything, and daily stories still hurt her.
How about we don’t impeach, and then can’t hold R senators’ feet to the fire about the level of corruption they are condoning, and lose our chance at the Senate? Look at the fuss Mueller’s press conference stirred up, that his beautifully-written report didn’t. In this day and age, it has to be visual.
I do have some trust in Nancy, and maybe she really doesn’t have the votes yet to start the process. She has shown she will chance things for the right outcome, and she has shown that she doesn’t discount current suffering just because she, personally, isn’t at risk. That doesn’t mean that I, as a voter, stop pushing.
(Yes, long-time lurker and huge admirer of Betty Cracker, so I had to pipe up.)
Wapiti
@Kay: From the cheap seat I’m sitting in, it seems that the best way forward might be to publicly investigate the crimes that follow from the SC report. Get Donald Trump, Junior under oath. Get Hope Hicks under oath. If they refuse to testify, hold them in contempt. Shine sunlight on the corruption.
RandomMonster
@OzarkHillbilly:
Death by ad nauseum is the worst.
Leto
@Kay: Here: in 2017 Rep Al Green of Texas forced a vote on the House floor for impeachment. It garnered 58 yays. Do we think it has more than 58 in a majority Dem house, where every day more House Dems are coming out in favor (including three more chairs of committees last night)?
Regarding congressional outcomes: are we now hoping for that? Hoping to get 51 in the senate (and hang on in the House) so that if he is re-elected we immediately start impeachment then? I’m sure there will be NO negative political outcomes for that.
For all the shit we give the FTFNYT for their continual coverage of “white working class voters”, here’s a piece about POC in basically my backyard. Add it to your data points.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/politics/black-voters-impeachment.html
Baud
@Marmot:
Right. Dems are often wrong, but the Internet isn’t any better, and in some ways worse, because there’s no accountability or responsibility there.
Leto
@MomSense:
My state senator opened an office two blocks away from me. I attended the opening Wednesday night and was able to speak with her. Turns out she’s my next door neighbor. I told her I was going to gimp my ass down to her office to volunteer 1-2 days a week to do… whatever. Phone bank, knock on doors, stuff envelops… I’m in a position now where I can do, something. Gotta start somewhere, right?
@Lapassionara: Thoughts on the ten obstruction of justice charges, as well as being an unindicted co-conspirator in financial crimes? Are those not enough to start an inquiry, or do we need something else? Something that I’ve stated is that inquires have no defined length. They also have stronger positions in the courts, wrt being able to get materials/testimony from witnesses.
OzarkHillbilly
@Leto:
And what I am saying is “IT WON”T WORK.” with our current Senate. The question then becomes, “What will work?”
No, that is NOT what I am saying. That is what the GOP is saying.
With the current math being what it is, the only feasible way to remove trump and punish the GOP for their blatant aiding and abetting of a criminal administration is House investigations that culminate in an electoral win in 2020. If the Senate math were to change due to House hearings influencing public opinion to the point where the GOP abandons trump, and it could, then fine, file articles of impeachment.
I just don’t see that happening in the trump cult formerly known as the GOP.
rikyrah
@Sab:
BWA HA HA HA HA H HA
You ain’t never lied. I have never met anyone associated with it that doesn’t call it – THE Ohio State University
Infamous Heel-Filcher
@Kay:
People keep asserting this without a shred of evidence. Or rather, perhaps the single shred of evidence that it was sorta true for Clinton, although the situations are entirely different.
The non-politics-junkie mass of America in 1998 thought Clinton was a basically good guy and competent president. The failed impeachment didn’t really strengthen his administration, but it did weaken the Congressional GOP because enough people could smell the bad faith.
The non-politics-junkie contingent of the left and what passes for the center today think that Trump is gross and probably shady. They don’t think he’s an actual criminal, but they can probably be convinced of it by frequent repetition. But that case has to be made loudly and repeatedly until it sinks in; this isn’t a game of cards where everyone’s been counting and all the players can agree to treat the last three tricks as played.
Yes, the Senate will not vote to remove. Take that as the inevitable outcome. But how you get there is important. Not impeaching strengthens Trump more than impeaching and “losing” in the Senate.
tobie
@OzarkHillbilly: 15 years ago I would not have appreciated that headline, having never lived in a place with less than 200,000 people and with a fully functioning municipal sewage system. Then I moved to a place with less than a 1000 people and had to learn all the intricacies of ‘waste management’ when my septic system failed. Anyhoo….good headline. I should check my local rag for such gems.
Kay
@Leto:
What? All I’m asking is that you consider more than one possibility. All your scenarios begin and end with impeachment. If it’s “impeachment no matter what happens” then just say that. That’s an imperative. Fine. Don’t act as if it’s this elaborately gamed out scenario that logically leads inexorably to the decision you want.
I’ve been a Democrat long enough too to know I’ll get the counterfactual. If she doesn’t move to impeach AND we lose (one of the 4 possibilities) that will be then blamed on the failure to impeach.
Here’s what I think. I think a lot of Democrats are scared they are going to lose to him so they are almost retreating to impeachment. That bothers me. I wish I didn’t think this was fear-based, but I think it is. Assure me you’re not pulling the emergency lever out of panic because you only get to pull it once.
OzarkHillbilly
This is interesting: Autism symptoms replicated in mice after faecal transplants
Also:
SFAW
@Infamous Heel-Filcher:
And if his “high crimes and misdemeanors,” coupled with his (likely) actual crimes, are presented to the electorate for a year or so, and then the Senate does not vote to convict, you constantly beat them over the head with that, maybe pick up Senate seats we might not otherwise.
Wishful thinking, I know.
Leto
@OzarkHillbilly: So my question still remains: when a president is committing prove-able, documented criminal acts in office, how do you remove them?
Also is the House obligated to follow the Senate? Is the House independent of the Senate? Which leads me back to, if the House will only do what the Senate allows, why are passing bills? They have no chance of passing. Impeachment has no chance of passing. Nothing the House does from Jan 2019- Jan 2021 has any chance of passing. Why does their oath apply to one part, but not the other? If sending bills to the Senate is for 2020, why wouldn’t impeachment. It’s another bill. If what we’re trying to show the country via bill passing is that Dems are responsible/faithful stewards of the nation/their constituents, why wouldn’t impeachment be the same?
It’s all kabuki at this point. It’s probably been kabuki the entire time if the point wasn’t his removal. Why go through the investigation if the end game was: wait till the next election, then we’ll get him! Kabuki.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Wow.
Lapassionara
@Leto: They are enough to start an inquiry, but for now the inquiry does not have to be named “impeachment.”
When I was in law school twenty something years ago, a lot of my classmates could not understand what Nixon had done that was so wrong. (I was 20 years older than most of them and had lived through the Nixon years). They were law students and didn’t consider obstruction of justice a big deal. Yikes.
OTOH, I think we need to see some contempt citations and the like, because the voters who helped bring about the blue wave are getting frustrated with the lack of progress on the investigations that are currently underway.
Kay
@Infamous Heel-Filcher:
I’m not comparing the Clinton impeachment to Trump. I don’t think Republicans would have impeached Clinton if Clinton could have won re-election. Because that’s a disaster. Do you agree there is a chance Trump could win reelection? There was no chance Clinton would win reelection. Republicans didn’t have that possibility.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Saying they’re cowards assumes that they agree with us and won’t do the right thing out of calculation. I was looking a couple weeks ago at a picture of Bush signing the AUMF, and Dick Gephardt (remember him?) was standing next to him looking very proud. He thought then, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he thinks now, that he did the right thing. Claire McCaskill demanded the Stimulus be shrunk down, and I’m sure she thinks to this that was just good common sense, midwestern values. Joe Mancin probably won’t win one vote for endorsing Susan Collins, but he thinks of that moment and sees himself as a statesman. Mary Landrieu probably still blames Obama’s “overreach” for costing her her seat. Evan Bayh is probably getting ready for lunch with some lobbying clients who will be regaled with his utterly sincere belief that ‘the party drifted too far left in spite of my best efforts to be a voice for moderation…”
Sab
@Kay: Thank you so much for your comment #91. Your thinking is so lucid. My guess is Pelosi’s thinking is in line with yours.
I think the moral imperative argument is great for getting things moving but a failed impeachment woul indeed be catastrophic. Slow process isn’t a failure of nerve. It’s the only responsible course of action.
Baud
@Leto:
I don’t see how ensuring that voters have information about the actions of the president is Kabuki.
My beef is largely with people who hate Dems for moving methodically rather than taking action right now. I would still like to see an impeachment vote at some point, although I can be convinced otherwise.
rave
Did ya’ll watch Donnie Douche on Morning Joe? They showed a clip of the Cheney movie with a dud focus grouping naming stuff, climate change vs global waring, estate tax vs death tax and how the pukes used that. He says dems should stop with “impeachment” and hammer “Trump criminal misconduct”.
germy
(emphasis mine)
r€nato
“bUt ImPeAcHiNg TrUmP wILL jUsT eNeRgIzE hIs BaSe!” – Vichy Democrats
Kay
@Leto:
I don’t understand why you would resist KNOWING that in such an uncertain process. THAT you could know. But you won’t even consider nailing that down. That’s treated like a technicality. This is your process! It’s the mechanism you’re promoting. At least go thru the steps of it, because Pelosi has to. She has to go thru every step. It’s a legislative process not an executive or judicial process- it operates by majority. I agree with you that two committee chairs coming over matters. But if that matters- and you think it does- WHY does it matter? Because it’s a step towards a majority. If it doesn’t matter at all we just need one, right?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
trouble is they also think that “both sides are the same’ and “oh, it’s all just politics” are expressions of high-minded sophistication, rather than the lazy abandonment of their own civic responsibility, and a whole bunch of those “centrists” come from the “I wish he would tweet less” school, meaning they like their tax cuts– even if they didn’t get one–, and they like somebody who ‘tells it like it is’ about ‘those people’, they just wish he weren’t so crude about it, so they can go back to telling their friends they don’t have a racist bone in their body, but….
also, this is as much about Senate/House votes as votes for trump. Susan Collins still has a 62% approval rating in Maine, even though trump is underwater by double digits. People don’t make the connections that seem so obvious to us.
Citizen Alan
@Leto:
Absent 66 Senators willing to at least consider conviction, you don’t except through the ballot box. The dirty little secret of our Constitution is that a President who has 34 Senators who will support him in all things is a dictator in every way that matters.
Leto
@Kay:
That’s not my fear at all. My fear is that a president will be able to do whatever the fuck they like in office with no repercussions, as we’re witnessing now. You were given ten specific instances where the president committed a crime. Obstruction of justice is a crime. Ten. And that’s not enough. How does this affect the rule of law moving forward?
Also, you don’t get to pull it just once. I suggest you re-read on the Nixon years. How many times were impeachment bills filed? What specific instances caused bi-partisan support? Why won’t that happen now? What happens the longer you wait to start? It’s not just your four scenarios.
rp
I think it’s a mistake to assume that the senate won’t convict. Of course it’s very unlikely, but you never know exactly how these things will play out and how people will react. In addition, I think there’s just as much upside as downside for us in having the Senate acquit on a party line vote.
artem1s
It’s interesting that many are interpreting Mueller’s comments about impeachment being Congress’ job as a message to Pelosi and NOT interpreting it as a call for the GOP to stop participating in corruption and a coverup. Why is it always the Democrat’s job to fix the GOP?
I think Mueller is throwing down the gauntlet to McConnell, Pence, and the GOP. Mueller knows it’s the Senate’s job to ultimately keep the executive branch in line, not the House.
tobie
@Leto: One thing that Democrats would have access to if they started impeachment proceedings is grand jury testimony. That would lead to new revelations, I think.
Miss Bianca
@germy: Oh, ffs. Is Baquet also banning NYT reporters from going on Fox News?
plato
@artem1s:
Because all those teevee idiots said so.
Just imagine the horror if both the houses were held by the rethugs now.
tobie
@artem1s: Good point. The press doesn’t hold Republicans in Congress accountable because they are beholden to their base but Democratic leaders are expected to kick their base in the butt or else be accused of having no principles.
OzarkHillbilly
@Leto:
First off, passing bills that would never get thru the Senate is saying to the electorate what a party would do if they had a majority and showing that the opposition is stopping them from doing it. The hope is that a majority wants these things to be done and that only a minority wants it stopped.
Impeachment is not the same as passing mere bills, it is the first step in reversing a presidential election, something that has never happened before. The politics of it are entirely different. A lot of people who dislike trump might very well feel that having won an election, we need to honor that result, that impeachment would be nothing more than an illegitimate power grab. Being just a partisan DEM, I am not an expert on politics or how to move the collective opinion of an electorate or run campaigns or whip House votes etc, but Nancy Pelosi is and she appears to me to be very good at it.
You say it’s Kabuki, I say it’s politics.
When they are the head of a racketeering influenced corrupt organization that holds 2/3s of the elected federal government, it appears the only way to do it is thru elections.
SFAW
@artem1s:
Murc’s Law
(“Only Democrats have agency”)
Kay
This is bad for auto supply chain. I don’t think the Trump Administration understand manufacturing or agriculture because they are finance and real estate people. I really think it’s that simple. They don’t understand making or producing tangible goods. They really don’t understand the concept that in manufacturing “things go inside other things”. When they were doing the steel stuff they stopped at “making steel”. They seemed shocked that steel then goes to make something else, which is then sold.
OzarkHillbilly
And with that I need to get busy.
Leto
@Lapassionara: That’s what they are: Impeachment Inquiries. It’s the formal inquiry to see if impeachment charges will be brought. It’s the oversight function on steroids.
Little known factoid: there have been 65 previous impeachment inquiries that have brought no charges. Starting an impeachment inquiry doesn’t automatically mean bringing forth impeachment articles.
@Baud: It isn’t. But we’ve been exposing the shit stain for what he is since 2015. 40% of the American public is ride or die. A methodical approach can still be had under the Inquiry process. See my above comment.
@Kay: What majority are you counting? Majority Dem or majority house? This is the process you’re not defining. Again, are you waiting for a Saturday Night Massacre or WH Tapes? What type of majority do you want? Are you taking in that process now? You keep talking about the vote count but you’re not defining it yourself.
It matters when chairs sign on because they’re the senior members. They’re the leadership of the party, trusted party members. Whether you agree with it or not, their voices count for more. So when they keep signing on to the impeachment process, it means something. But you knew that already.
Kay
Farmers are absolutely getting killed. I have them as clients and I understand they’re mostly R voters so there’s not much sympathy for them but the combination of wet weather and trade uncertainty is killing them. They are the one group of Trump voters who are being punished. He’s a disaster for them. The only bright spot are fuel prices, but that doesn’t really matter if you can’t plant anything or sell anything.
Kay
@Leto:
Dem majority. And please for the love of God rely on something other than Nixon and Clinton. Do a TRUMP analysis. Using what you have.
Gin & Tonic
@Kay:
Won’t be a bright spot for very long once the idiot’s tariffs hit Mexican crude.
Kay
@Leto:
Right. I did. Which I said. But since you supported impeachment prior to them signing on they shouldn’t be a factor for you. They are for me.
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
I don’t think Trump should have handed out 20,000 dollars each to them as a bribe to continue supporting him, but 20,000 dollars isn’t a lot for even a small farm. I don’t think he has the faintest notion how this industry works. Which shouldn’t surprise farmers! Given that he’s a fucking 3rd tier tv celebrity. Dopes. Fools and their money.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: and a trump electorate, where a third of the country thinks he is the great defender of cruelly oppressed white “christians” and a small but noisy and electorally significant chunk of the Left still think that Obama and Hillary Clinton are the reason we can’t have President AOC
tobie
@Kay: Midwestern farmers are being slaughtered with the combination of flooding and tornados, trade wars, and the consolidation of the ag industry. Will the rest of the country and the Chamber of Commerce types wake up? Dow Jones is now in 24,000 territory. This could be the jolt for some. Trump’s been running on Obama’s good economy.
ruemara
@Leto: convince me by starting impeachment &/or recall elections against the real problems – Republican office holders.
I am against impeachment because you are tilting at a windmill while the support structure of the administration goes untouched.
@tobie: and those nitwits will still vote Trump. So no.
JGabriel
@SFAW:
Are you saying … wait for it … that they can see the international date line from their house?
Odie Hugh Manatee
With all of this discussion to impeach or not, I’ll just drop this link here:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/446136-professor-who-has-correctly-predicted-nine-presidential-elections-says
Me? Impeach, now.
rikyrah
@MomSense:
That is so good – stitch and bitch…..LOL
I just ordered it on audible, thanks to a suggestion from here.
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
It hasn’t really hit yet. If their ground assessed value starts to drop – the value of an acre- and it will- then they’re really screwed. It went up fairly dramatically during the last 2 years of Obama and then some under Trump. But if they can’t produce it goes down- the actual asset is worth less. And of course that’s what they borrow on. I’m not an expert but I thought it was inflated going into Trump and they did too. They knew it wasn’t real, in the sense of “reliable”, not a “new basis” but bloated. That’s the other shoe.
JGabriel
@Leto:
*cough*(Bittorent)*cough*
Leto
@tobie: Nah, I’m sure if we work through the new normal process of subpoena’ing everyone involved, then the multiple court processes, that we’ll definitely get those in a timely manner. /s
@OzarkHillbilly:
That’s literally… not true. It’s been done three times before at the presidential level (not going to mention the # of times at the judicial branch, because impeachment only applies to “civil officers” which has been defined as the president, VP, and judges). What hasn’t happened is conviction. All of them have gone to the Senate where the Senate didn’t convict (for one reason or the other). Did the House let that stop them from moving forward? Nope. Hell, Republicans after their failed Clenis impeachment went on to more victories at all levels for the next twenty years. Electorate didn’t punish them at all. But sure.
Then why even discuss impeachment in the first place? Why bother with oversight if it’s just for show every four years, where we hope the dumbshits will pay attention long enough to maybe do the right thing?
Eural Joiner
Wow – I think our Constitutional crisis is really (very quickly!) morphing into a much bigger crisis of demography. Thanks to our population patterns the Senate is controlled by a minority of the population and that is only going to get worse in the next decades. Outside of a major political re-alignment, it appears the GOP has a strangle hold on our government from that institution and, coupled with the Executive and quickly filling Judicial branches, that’s it for accountability and justice. The Constitutional framework of balancing the masses with a Senate and Electoral College gives a minority the complete power over the majority in our modern world.
I’m beginning to think there are only two things that might provoke enough of a backlash to end the Trump/McConnell era: a crumbling economy and/or violent climate events (of course the two will go hand in hand). Otherwise, their supporters aren’t budging and the rest of us – who keep playing by the rules – are just along for the ride. It’s Germany 1933 again and we are just one sliver (the House) away from a new Enabling Act.
Infamous Heel-Filcher
I’m not sure what point you think you’re making about Clinton — obviously Bill wasn’t going to win re-election in 2000, but there was going to be a Democrat running, and the vast likelihood at the time of the impeachment was that it was either going to be Gore or another of the senior cabinet members, who would be tarred with any brush that could be successfully applied to Clinton.
To your first question, yes, I’d put Trump’s chance of re-election somewhere in the vicinity of 40-50% right now, though I’m sure I don’t understand the underlying stochastic process that produces the distribution that’s drawn from. But that stochastic process is not independent of the choices that are made between now and next November.
Kay
@tobie:
I don’t know – I no longer discuss anything political with them. I just listen. I know people here hate this but in my opinion it’s important to offer people a graceful exit, one that saves face. I will trade the moral high ground for that, because it’s worth it. I think it’s true in negotiations and it’s just a fact of dealing with human beings. I don’t dig them in further. I don’t need them bleeding and broken, I just need them to get there. I admit this is transactional but I don’t agree that it’s cynical. It’s a sacrifice. I don’t get to beat them up :)
cmorenc
@OzarkHillbilly:
This.
Baud
@Kay:
That’s the right approach, as painful as it is, blog carping notwithstanding.
The trickier part is avoiding the trap of making moral or rhetorical concessions to them in the hopes of encouraging them to change. For example, by agreeing with them when they say Dems are just as bad. You make that concession, then they own you.
Infamous Heel-Filcher
I can only assume you mean state-level office-holders, because there is no recall process for federal ones.
?BillinGlendaleCA
I’ve always taken impeachment as more than just removing an office holder from their office, it shows the official disapproval of the House in their conduct.
JGabriel
Kay:
Yep, I’ve been thinking about that one too. If we impeach now, fail to remove Donny Dementia from office, and he steals re-election, then what do we do? Congress will be too gun shy to impeach him a second time.
Even though I’ve been on the Impeach The Motherfucker, ASAP! train since the day he stole the election, that’s the one concern that brings me up short – and makes me worry that maybe we need to keep the impeachment powder dry just in case Russia, Fox News, and corrupt GOP officials (redundant, I know), rig the vote and the electoral college for him again, and he gets a second term.
Because then we’ll NEED to impeach him. And a failed impeachment in the previous term could seriously compromise that effort.
Leto
@Kay: What we have is blatant crimes in the open but that’s not enough for you. We have a documented report of ten crimes, plus he’s an unindicted co-conspirator in financial crimes. Not enough. You still haven’t answered what it would take for you to say impeach. Is it just Dem majority? Something more/less specific?
@ruemara: Which specific Republican office holders? Members of Congress? That’s elections only. Members inside the cabinet? Congress can do multiple things to force them to comply (holder of the $$$, remember). The Republican base? They’re ride or die with Trumpov. Not sure what to do with them except win at the local levels and move up. Media? We’re fucked. Money pouring into colleges? We’re fucked.
But lopping off the head to stop the lawlessness from happening now? Possible. One thing neither Kay not I have gamed out is a Pence presidency for six to 12 months. How does that affect Dems prospects?
@JGabriel: I know, I know. I’ve been trying to be really good since being back in the states with regular access to media. Don’t tempt me!
Leto
@JGabriel: Ok, he gets a second term. Then what? Immediately try to nullify the election that just happened? Haha, oh man. Kabuki, it’s all kabuki.
I’m off for my walk and then out for PT. See everyone at 4pm.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Leto: Cabinet members can be impeached and early in our history the House did impeach a Senator(it did not go well and I doubt will be tried again). Each chamber can expel a member, I believe a 2/3 majority is required.
JGabriel
@Kay:
It is, and I want to feel sympathy for them – because that seems like what the human reaction should be – but I can’t help thinking: They’re getting what they voted for, good and hard.
JGabriel
@Leto:
Yes.
It worked for getting rid of Nixon.
Though, obviously, I’d prefer Donny Dementia not get a second term. And I’d prefer to see the motherfucker impeached now. I’m just not sure if it’s tactically the best move at present.
So I’m putting that concern out there, like Kay did, for further discussion.
mrmoshpotato
@germy: Wah! Wah! Wah!
Let’s write it out, shall we?
Fuck the fucking New York Times.
Isn’t it way past time for another Donald the Dove, Hillary the Hawk horseshit piece, Maureen Dowd?
zhena gogolia
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Just his using the phrase “grow a spine” turns me off. They’re trying to lay the groundwork and not go off half-cocked. They have plenty of spine.
Kay
@Infamous Heel-Filcher:
So he could be reelected after impeachment. 40 or 50%. Make it 30, because the idea is he’s less electable after the process starts, so we’ll assume that’s true. You then have an impeached President who just won another term. What then? Impeach him again?
J R in WV
@plato:
And I would guess that 90%+ of the stories are about how von Bülow was “found innocent” when we all know he would found not guilty, a long, long reach usually from innocent.
I was on two first degree murder juries years ago, foreman on one, from October until the end of the year. Both defendants were found not guilty. Neither was found innocent, there’s no box on the jury form for that!!
But “People” magazine knows no better!!! Amazing…
Eural Joiner
@JGabriel:
Yes…which lead to: a) Ford’s pardon/no consequences, b) a resurgent conservative movement = the Reagan “Revolution”, c) Roger Ailes and the FOX news behemoth. So, we lopped off a head and the monster only got stronger.
I’m not saying that the GOP is just an evil party of racists, mysoginysts, criminals, and traitors…they are also true believers who (so far) have shown no shame, remorse, or regret for their behavior over the past five decades. I don’t see that changing anytime soon. I just don’t see any viable, electoral, judicial solution at this point.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@mrmoshpotato: Wah Wah?
rikyrah
@Kay:
That is part of them. The other section have been on impeachment since January 20, 2017 (I belong to that group.).
plato
@Kay: Is there a basis for the bj cw that the dems starting impeachment would lead automatically to totus thug 2.0?
low-tech cyclist
@Baud:
The problem here is that the Dems have so often been some combination of cowardly and corrupt. (The latter basically meaning that Dem centrists are often more out to please moneyed interests than the WWC.) There’s a long string of reasons why I’ve been referring to the Dems as the Scared Rabbit Party for the past 15 years or so.
I’ve seen plenty of people make that argument. And I still don’t understand the counterargument about how some bad thing is gonna happen if the Senate acquits Trump (or simply doesn’t take up impeachment) after the House impeaches him, that isn’t already on its way to happening.
zhena gogolia
Shocking statement by Barr — “everybody dies” so I don’t care about my reputation in history
https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1134447903223795712
mrmoshpotato
@JGabriel: It’s hard to feel sympathy for people whose feet are full of 40 years of bullet holes, and they’re reloading the gun.
Brachiator
@Eural Joiner:
And of course, the Republicans have won every presidential election since Nixon’s resignation and the Democratic Party became an empty shell. Also, Wilmer would have won.
I also presume that you don’t bother voting in national elections since you believe that a Republican victory is preordained and we must always fear provoking right wing nut jobs.
chopper
@Leto:
ozark is completely correct. reversing a presidential election via impeachment has never happened before. it was tried twice (not three, nixon resigned before being impeached), and in both cases it didn’t get past the senate.
FlipYrWhig
My idea: run on how if the DoJ won’t indict a sitting president the best way to make Trump face justice for his criminality is to make him an ex-president. LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP!
Kay
@plato:
Well, I don’t know plato. But if by “BJ thinking” you mean my thinking why not just say that? Because of course I didn’t say that? That impeachment guarantees a Trump victory? I mean, come on.
I am deferring to Nancy Pelosi on this. Delegating. I admit this. More than “admit it”- I made a decision to do it. That’s what deferring and delegating mean. Turn it over. I could stop doing that! If the situation changes I could reverse that. But given what I have I’m deferring. I’ll support her decision either way.
rikyrah
Dow Jones down 248.
So much winning.
low-tech cyclist
@JGabriel:
That’s a gross misreading of 1972-74. Before the election, there were NO Watergate-related grounds for impeaching Nixon. Woodward and Bernstein had only barely traced the trail all the way to Haldeman. It only started to be clear in 1973 that Nixon was acting like he had a lot to hide.
This is very different from now, where we already have the grounds for impeaching Trump. Given that fact, it strikes me as disastrously wrongheaded to save them for 2021, and use impeachment then as a way of overturning an election that went wrong on us. I think way more people than just the hardcore 40% would have a serious problem with this.
mrmoshpotato
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Just all sorts of obscure around this place this morning.
Eural Joiner
@Brachiator:
Ha ha – funny.
Yes, the Dems have had moments of viability – immediately stolen by GOP manipulations (2000, 2016) and with increasing control. I don’t believe a GOP victory is pre-ordained – but show me where they have paid any price for five decades of cheating, grift, lying, and playing to the lowest standards? My counter evidence is the fact that in 2019 they completely dominate our Federal system and have huge influence across state legislatures – even in the face of their minority status in polling views and actual voting numbers. So, yeah, I think we’re in trouble.
Infamous Heel-Filcher
So the assumption here is that the Dems still hold the House and the GOP still holds the Senate? I don’t see a lot of marginal advantage impeaching the President again in that scenario, though of course that depends on what level of new crimes he commits (because we all know he’s not going to stop criming). Obviously, this scenario is dire.
In realistic terms, the House Dems would have to write a spending authorization that seals off as much of the administration’s malfeasance as possible under black-letter law — no government spending at any property owned by the President, for example — and dare the GOP to shut down the government over it.
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
Right. That’s why he’s on the publicity tour. Because he doesn’t care. His fireplace backdrop and whatever the fuck he’s wearing- his leisure outfit– are embarrassing, BTW. Is he hunting peasants on an estate? Why isn’t he at work? Can he at least pretend to be an attorney general instead of a high priced fixer for rich people?
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
I don’t know Mueller at all, obviously, but he seems like a serious person but his admiration of Barr really gives me pause. Yuck. Find less corrupt and venal friends. Let’s hope like isn’t attracted to like there.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: Thin line between hunting peasants and pheasants
rikyrah
@Kay:
I have no sympathy for them at all, in the least.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Isn’t most of the serious bailout money going to Big AG?
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
Yes — “While I was walking around your grounds, I shot a peasant.” “You mean a pheasant.” “No, a peasant. The fellow was insolent so I shot him.”
Kay
Ryan Goodman
Verified account
The attorney general seems to be doing campaign events for President Trump. He’s seated in front of a fire wearing some kind of ridiculous rich person sporting attire. I resent paying him. I think the Trump family should pay him. They’re slow pay or no pay and the public employee check is reliable so maybe that’s why he took his billing over to us.
rikyrah
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Read the article. Muthaphucka doesn’t bring up the Mitch McConnell Senate. It always amuses me that those screaming IMPEACHMENT more often than not, ever bring up the Senate. I mean, I do..I know that it’s full of GOP Traitors who will never convict, but, I believe the American people are owed the proof of why this man deserves to be behind bars, and is a traitor to this country.
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
https://twitter.com/DenaeMato/status/1134478277337178112
low-tech cyclist
Maneuvering is about how you realize your goal. But what’s Pelosi’s goal?
I see an increasing number of people claiming that she’s ready to do impeachment once she can get her caucus behind it. If she was being noncommittal about impeachment, I could believe that. Instead, she’s clearly been talking like someone who really doesn’t want to go there. I have to take her at her word.
That’s fine. Can we get a head count of the Dems in the anti-impeachment half of the Congress? Then we can get on the phones and call Congresspersons who haven’t said they favor impeachment. (I’m in Hoyer’s district, and they’re probably tired of hearing my voice.) Somebody needs to whip this (prospective) vote.
zhena gogolia
It’s called political maneuvering.
Martin
Here’s two questions for the audience:
1. “Did Muellers presser advance the argument for impeachment in ways that Democrats could not?”
2. “If Nancy had greenlit an impeachment investigation last week, would Muller have held his presser this week?”
Since the answers are obviously ‘Yes’ and ‘No’, this is why Pelosi knows what she’s doing.
Yutsano
@Gin & Tonic: Uhh…as a child who was at a second grade reading level at kindergarten and a college level reader in sixth grade, I question the gentleman’s premise.
I know you’re not the one saying this, but man that’s some grade A horsepuckey right there.
J R in WV
@Miss Bianca:
Oh, no, Miss. That would be wrong!
Kay
@rikyrah:
I don’t know. Ohio doesn’t have that kind of agriculture. They don’t have huge Kansas or Nebraska type- it’s a different scale. They can combine grain and sell as a cooperative or entity so it’s still possible for smaller outfits to compete. They sell to a broker who then sells quantity of X. They’re not all making individual sales to the end buyer. That’s how it’s able to work even though they aren’t huge.
Brachiator
@Baud:
Mueller essentially said that the president obstructed justice, but that it is up to Congress to follow through. I keep hearing about a survey of prosecutors who concluded that there was sufficient grounds for impeachment.
I am not sure how much more investigation will make any difference.
All the Internet and journalistic discussion is mainly about second guessing political motives.
Also, I have seen comments which embrace political cowardice, concluding that impeachment must be avoided because it will galvanize Trump supporters and possibly insure his re-election.
But Trump has declared that any investigation into anything he does, has done or will do is by definition treason. So in his mind he has already won every argument. His most ardent supporters believe that he should be left alone and be allowed to do what they elected him to do.
Whatever the Democrats choose to do, this is the political reality in which they must operate.
Dog Dawg Damn
The S&P 500 is below the 200-day moving average, a common “sell signal” which may spell the beginning of a bear market.
If it closes below that level…we may be in for some tough times. Of course, I fully expect Tramp to drag everyone down with him. For everyone who has dealt with a narcissist in meltdown, that’s par for the course.
From this perspective, impeachment is a way to save the country. Not there yet with Republicans, but if the economy goes (more) south, they will come along. The Big Boys Upstairs aren’t going to let President Tweets-A-Lot take everyone down.
low-tech cyclist
@rikyrah: Hell, I’ve assumed since last year that if the House impeaches, McConnell will simply refuse to have the Senate take it up. (There’s nothing in the Constitution that says the Senate has to. There’s a Senate rule to that effect, but Mitch will change any rules that stand in his way.)
I only discuss the possibility of trial and acquittal because most people figure that impeachment would result in a Senate trial. And as for trial and conviction, I figure the likelihood of 20 or more GOP Senators voting to convict is so small, you’d need an electron microscope to see it.
Raoul
@germy: F**k Dean Baquet. I just despise what he’s doing to the paper. Screw Sulzberger Jr, too, for letting that twatwaffle work his backwards, idiot ‘magic’.
Eural Joiner
@Brachiator:
Also, if it makes you feel any better, I’m not all doom and gloom – I do see a very slim path to ending this nightmare and then, hopefully, reforming the hell out of it so it doesn’t happen again. At the moment I think Pelosi is playing it right and slow walking increasing support for impeachment to hit hardest right before or after the election. If we take the Presidency and hold the House we’ve got a start at reversing this mess – especially with the cultural and voting patterns of the now dominating “younger” generations. Unfortunately, I also think we’ll be grappling with the increasing economic/climate crisis…so who knows where that goes since, historically, we’ve never been there before. Rough comparison is the Great Depression/DustBowl/WWII era – and that was as transformative in US and world history as the Revolutionary era…so there you go. As the Chinese curse goes, may you live in interesting times!
Brachiator
@Martin:
He wouldn’t have needed to.
Doug R
@Leto:
Look what’s showing up in the USA ONE WEEK later than the UK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3mP0c51hE
Martin
@Yutsano: I went to a Waldorf as a kid and it was great. I was reading long before I got there, but the focus was on exploring and creative thinking, interaction with others, etc.
This is not all that strange. Finland is considered to have one of the best grade school systems on earth and they don’t start teaching reading until 7 (or even start school until 7). Waldorf schools share a lot with the Finland education system.
I’ll note that reading is not a key part of how you teach critical thinking. You are absorbing someone else’s thoughts, not creating your own. The idea is to build up kids confidence in their own ideas before encouraging to trust the ideas of others, which they really aren’t equipped to judge.
Steeplejack
@Gin & Tonic, @OzarkHillbilly:
I don’t think the article (or Waldorf) is saying that kids can’t read before age 7 or 8, more that their curriculum doesn’t introduce it until then.
MomSense
@Martin:
Exactly. She also said something which I like very much and that is that we need to get results. She’s right. The pressure is definitely getting to him. He tweeted an admission that Russia helped get him elected. He was clearly coming undone in his impromptu comments to the press yesterday. He’s going to get more and more careless and reckless as this goes on.
low-tech cyclist
@Baud:
Fair enough. Then what’s the best way to move methodically?
ISTM that the best way is to go ahead and authorize an impeachment inquiry, so that the Judiciary Committee can get started, have time to move at a deliberate pace, and still finish up this year, rather than having the House vote on impeachment right smack in the middle of the primaries, or later. The more they wait to start the inquiry, the more likely that the committee will be faced with a choice between rushing its work or impeaching in the middle of an election.
Because like it or not, no matter what the other House investigations find, it’ll still take Judiciary a while to go through what evidence is available, build their case, and make sure it’s comprehensible to the public, before drafting and debating articles of impeachment.
J R in WV
@chopper:
You and Ozark are both wrong. Nixon resigned because the professional vote counters in the Senate went to him in the Oval Office and told him he was GOING to be impeached and convicted in the Senate. That’s why he resigned.
In my book, that means Impeachment by the House worked, it got Nixon out of the White House. I don’t know if Trump would resign if McConnell went to him and told him they had lost the Senate, that he was doomed to be impeached AND convicted.
If Pelosi times it right, so that the House testimony under oath and on TV shows without a doubt that Trump committed a wide variety of crimes, and they take the Impeachment resolution to the Senate just before the election, I think the scandal will make it impossible for Trump to be reelected.
Perhaps he will be convicted in the Senate, perhaps not. If the scandal is plain enough, it will also help us to take the Senate back, which is almost as important as taking the presidency from Trump. Perhaps he will lose the nomination, if the Impeachment inquiry is managed well enough.
He will certainly be indicted, tried and most likely convicted in one or more courts of law after losing the election. That works for me. I do think the timing of the inquiry and the votes on the inquiry is critical, and we just have to trust Madam Speaker Pelosi on that.
Ixnay
@OzarkHillbilly: Thanks, excellent read. DeGrasse Tyson to the courtesy phone, please. Science also does not care about your ignorant parental snowflake feelings.
Ruckus
@Ladyraxterinok:
FTFNYT are concerned that they aren’t biased enough, all the while saying they aren’t biased and having no more than 6% of their staff even able to write liberal anything.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
Wonder if she knows that death is the result of life? It just comes in a different timeframe for each of us.
NotMax
@Baud
I originally signed up for Prime in order to get the free shipping. Otherwise shipping costs to Hawaii are super expensive! The access to a wealth of older films and of foreign TV turned out to be a pleasant and welcome bonus. As with Netflix the original series are hit and miss, emphasis on miss. But then that’s the case with most TV, isn’t it?
There are other bennies as well, which don’t happen to hold any particular draw for me; YMMV. From Consumer Reports: Pros and Cons of Amazon Prime.
Brachiator
@Eural Joiner:
This makes no sense. You could not bring impeachment right before the election without hearing howls about interference in the election. If Trump wins re-election, he will be invulnerable. If he loses, impeachment becomes irrelevant.
The Senate will continue to obstruct. But I agree that there may be opportunity here.
BTW, younger voters without a college education are more likely to be Trump supporters. The cultural wars will continue.
We will see what happens. And even though we may disagree on some key issues, I appreciate your response. Much good stuff to think about.
Kent
@low-tech cyclist:
I hear a lot of liberals here and elsewhere saying something to the effect of: “We HAVE to hold Trump Accountable. Therefore we have to Impeach him.”
To which I ask: “OK, how will impeaching Trump in any way hold him accountable? The House impeaches him, tosses the ball over to the Senate, and then?? We assume that McConnell somehow (for the first time in his decades-long career) decides to go against his own party’s self-interest and does the right thing as we define it? Of COURSE the GOP Senate will manage the process in whatever manner they decide best serves their own interests, which is mainly to get re-elected and sustain GOP control. And Trump is likely to come out of the process even stronger. How would that amount to “holding Trump accountable?”
However if it looks like Trump is for certain going down anyway and has become electoral poison for the GOP then the calculation might be different. I think Pelosi understands this well. So she is slow-walking things, systematically building up investigations all over the place, to slowly build up the pressue on Trump and the GOP until they finally get to the point that the rational calculation is to abandon Trump and go with Pence instead. If we ever do reach that point with Trump’s poll numbers even more in the toilet and the GOP abandoning him across the board I suspect the end game would not be impeachment anyway, but some sort of managed resignation with a lot of pardons all around “for the good of the country”
My guess is that November 2020 is going to come a whole lot faster than this process is going to play out.
Infamous Heel-Filcher
Asked and answered above. The American people will treat a lack of impeachment as a positive judgement by the Dems that Trump committed no impeachable offenses.
This is not a game of spades where skilled players can treat the last few tricks as played because they all counted the cards.
You keep asserting this without a shred of evidence.
J R in WV
@MomSense:
Yes. I think the only chance we have for the Senate to convict Trump is for Trump to be obviously unraveled and incapable of even pretending to be Presidential at the time the House Impeachment resolution goes to the Senate. If it’s obvious that Trump is likely to take McConnell down with him, McConnell will vote to remove him…
cckids
@SFAW:
According to S.P. Warren, you’re not. It was written by Nixon’s DOJ, for obvious reasons.
Eural Joiner
@Brachiator:
Yes, I agree that it could play out like that as well! My response is…damn, I hope someone smarter than me has got a handle on it cause I’ve got nothing. There I was getting hopeful again and now you just crushed it :)
Chris Johnson
The bottom line is:
Pence is just as dirty or dirtier than Trump. He’s Manafort’s pick. Impeachment of absolute traitors who’ve done a foreign-backed coup on the United States would remove Trump and Pence, leaving Nancy Pelosi as President. Among other problems with that, she’d die to terrorism, and seems not to want to.
Leaving that aside, it’s adorable (not really) how people like Pelosi want to act as if the electoral system of this country is not already completely compromised.
Except obviously she DOES know that because it seems to her that we could go for impeachment and then in 2020, ‘lose’ to a Trump re-election. Remember, the system is utterly and completely compromised. It’s fake. It’s just as possible for the results to be ‘Oh so sorry! There were zero Democratic votes. Whoopsy!’ as ‘in a ratings-boosting nail-biter, Trump prevailed by X percent in Y and Z battleground states…’
It’s all MADE UP at this point. This is not the country I got born into. We’ve been watching it go this way all this time and acting as if it was snark fuel, entertainment. It’s not. It’s always projection with these guys, and they are defending a ‘quiet coup’ aided by the Russians that remained plausible enough to not foment immediate revolution. The question becomes, is it going to stay ‘plausible’ or will they at some point just start acting with complete arrogance and the barest possible kayfabe?
I guess we can look at McConnell for that.
Pelosi’s actions are consistent with understanding this.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
I agree.
I think it’s more than just a trump cult though. I think it could have been anyone who says the quiet parts out loud. He just has almost no filter of any kind. They like him because he speaks their language and has no political spit and polish, inside or out. Conservatives are used to their politicians being crooks and lying, they think it’s OK for everyone to grab everything they can legal or not. Their world view is that the world will stomp on you without losing a beat, so you might as well get yours. They think trump is smart because he’s used all the tricks to make billions, therefore he’s smart. They don’t care that he lies, everyone does.
Now like all large groupings of humans, white men, blacks, etc, there are outliers, people who look like the group but aren’t part of it. Not all the republicans support trump. Most still want to be republicans but they want the party to go back a couple of steps, be the same people, but shut the hell up or lie about all the bad parts, like they are used to. They liked Regan, he could read off the script while he was stabbing people in the back. Trump can’t even read reasonably, he’s third grade level and the absolute bottom of his class.
J R in WV
@Eural Joiner:
Sorry, but as a proper legislative function, Impeachment should be more or less routine business of the House, regardless of when an election is scheduled. Whenever it takes place, the media is going to be crazed, and I would hope that the crazy leads to non-stop TV coverage of the hearings of the Impeachment committee.
I don’t care much about when the final vote happens. I’ve decided to trust Madam Speaker Pelosi to run her investigation as she sees fit. I guess I’m good with the House vote happening just before the election, or just after the election.
If Trump’s completely incompetent non-free trade policy crashes the world economy, we’re all screwed, but Trump most of all. Want him to be penniless and in jail a whole lot!
Ruckus
@artem1s:
The smartass answer is that they are incapable of fixing themselves.
The truthful answer is that they don’t think they are broken and need to be fixed.
The reality is that the GOP/conservatives does not want the country we supposedly live in. They may have at one time but I can’t actually think of a time that was true. They have consistently worked to move the country towards a monarchy, ruled forever that way without having to think or work at it.
Ruckus
@Kay:
It’s called letting them save face. It’s really letting them make the decision for themselves, giving them the option to think where they are going and what the real effect will be. If done right they see your side of things, if done wrong they shut their eyes tight and see nothing. Do you take off your shoe and beat on the podium or treat them as equals? Both are political paths taken in our lifetimes, which actually works better?
MCA1
@Sab: Do you live in The Ohio? When’s the last time you heard someone say “I’m sorry, it’s The MIT?” C’mon.
I’ve never understood why people associated with that place insist on such a ridiculously pretentious naming oddity. It comes off as thinking the institution has a stature it will never achieve, which just invites everyone to shit on it. Instead of getting respect for doing a pretty good job at its mandate as a land grant state school, it gets mocked for implying it’s on a par with Harvard.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris Johnson: If you believe what you just said, why are you wasting your time here? Shouldn’t you be caching weapons and ammo in the mountains somewhere?
Also, aren’t you the guy who keeps accusing Mayhew/Anderson of trying to kill your friends when describes how health insurance currently works?
Omnes Omnibus
@MCA1: No one says The Harvard. Every school has quirks.
sdhays
Trump HAS to be impeached, because no President in the history of the country has deserved it more. But I really fail to understand the urgency of impeaching him now, now, NOW that some people are advocating. Impeachment isn’t going to remove Trump from office without some dramatic change, so the next best thing is using it to ensure that he fails to be reelected and the Republicans lose the Senate. That means continuing to ratchet up the pressure and keeping all eyes on the House while more details and smoking guns fall out of the woodwork and support for impeachment reaches at least a clear majority.
He has to be impeached. But it’s critical that impeachment isn’t just an impotent vote of disapproval. It needs to COST the Republicans dearly for opposing it. We’re not there yet, but that’s what Pelosi is working on, and she’s right to do so.
Ruckus
@MCA1:
When it’s all you’ve got……
I moved to the Columbus area and wondered why it was so enshrined. But I grew up in Los Angeles, within easy driving distance to several schools with stellar reps. It’s not the only school in OH but it seems like it, because the sate has about the same population as LA county, while being almost 9 times as big. Ohio State is a big deal in OH. And it’s a decent school. It stands out there because it doesn’t have much competition.
Ellenr
@OzarkHillbilly: And you can change your gut microbiome by diet, no need for fecal transplants. Many inflammatory diseases may be more manageable by diet habits. Data is piling up on the diet/microbiome/health connections, hoping to write a book on this in the next few years (time permitting).
Brachiator
@sdhays:
Anything that might come out through further investigation could also come out during the impeachment process. Pelosi will do what she wants, but there is no rational reason for delay.
Brachiator
@J R in WV:
Impeachment is not a legislative function, and ultimately involves both the House and Senate. And since it has a huge impact on whether a president continues in office, when an election is scheduled is of some importance.
It’s not a matter of trust. She will do what she will do. But I find it odd that people are so ready to concede the election to Trump. The Senate will still refuse to convict. If you impeach Trump before the election, you also may put pressure on some Senate candidates.
The economy probably won’t crash. And Trump’s stupid tax cuts give businesses some cushion to absorb the Impact of tariffs. The people who are hut the most are ordinary people, who see prices rise and get no relief.
Edith Head Gave Good Gown
@Baud: This is interesting. I’m careful not to attack their Party or even office-holders directly so they do not get to invoke both siderism. I know my patience will be put to the test tomorrow, as I am participating in a Red/Blue workshop here in Nashville, put on by Better Angels. We will all be in a room together the entire day, and the goal is hash things out without fistfights I assume. (my first time)
Raven Onthill
On the one hand, Nancy Pelosi is an astute politician, and perhaps the most powerful woman in US history. On the other hand, she presided over the House Democrats as the party gave away the store in many ways. It may be that, like Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation, she will have to be backed into doing the right thing.
And, yes, Pence is awful. BUT: he does not have a personal business which can take advantage of the Presidency, does not have a corrupt family to put in charge, probably does not have a personal relatio with Putin, probably would not order the kidnapping of children at the border, probably would not have started on “building the wall,” probably would not have raised tariffs. He’s not a gangster, regardless of his faults. So on balance I take him as the lesser evil. And every day Trump is in power, the authoritarians cement their control.
Ruckus
@Raven Onthill:
I find your take “interesting,” in that you give Dense credit that his own red state would no longer give him. I understand your point of lessor of two evils but Manafort selected him to be VP and he’s as rotten a ruski stooge as has ever been. No, he’s not a gangster, in the traditional 1920-30s use of the word. But he’s about as far out there as trump, maybe without as abrasive a personality, but his concept of the future, while it may be different than trumps it is in no way a livable future for a majority of people. Could he get reelected if he took over the office for say a year? I’d say no but there is no real way to know. And I don’t see how you can say he wouldn’t do the disgusting stuff that trump has done and said. I say, he may not be as bad as trump on the surface but in some ways he might be far worse. He managed to get elected to the governorship twice before he ran off voters as a useless fuck of a human being. And he did this by not being quite as obnoxious as trump. None of the assholes of society should be within shouting distance of any kind of power. And he belongs to that group, boy does he belong.
TenguPhule
@Raven Onthill:
Only as long as you’re not gay, transgender, or trying to get an abortion.
Sab
@MCA1: I do live in Ohio. My comment was meant as snark, but it’s still true.
Ohio University is older than OSU, and that bothers some of the higher ups at OSU. A number of years back their Board of Trustees actually had their lawyers look into suing OU to force it to drop Ohio from its name. The lawyers eventually persuaded the OSU trustees to drop the project because of the very real possibility that OU, being older, might win and OSU would have to drop the O from its own name.
So they came up with The OSU, and the include the “The” in all of their own references to the school. It’s on all their letterhead and in sll their press releasrs. I personally find it hilarious.
debbie
@Sab:
I know you’re long gone, but you are wrong. There is no “The” when it’s abbreviated. It’s either OSU or The Ohio State University.
I did editing and graphics work for several different departments there, so I was thoroughly schooled on this shit.
debbie
@debbie:
Actually, I was schooled because they almost sued me for using the block O in a poster design for the OSU Parents Association. They said it was a violation of their copyright, and I said how can that be when the association is a part of the university? They tried to get my client to destroy the posters, but she got someone to get them to back off.
Sab
@debbie: I agree with you on the no the in OSU. That was snark. But the use of “the Ohio State” instead of “Ohio State” is everywhere and frankly ridiculous. What other state university does that?
And your threatened lawsuit story confirms my point.
debbie
@Sab:
LOL, agreed. It’s not just “the Ohio State University,” it’s “The Ohio State University.” Doesn’t matter, really, they still are the university that tolerated a perv doctor for more than 20 years.
apocalipstick
@JR: I really enjoy Bosch and Sneaky Pete on Prime. Patriot ain’t bad either.
apocalipstick
@Miss Bianca: Well, according to Jonathan Turley, Trump was once upset about an interview by Chris Wallace, so no bias. Also, Shep Smith.