Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

One lie, alone, tears the fabric of reality.

FFS people, this was a good thing. take the win.

Since we are repeating ourselves, let me just say fuck that.

The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Dead end MAGA boomers crying about Talyor Swift being a Dem is my kind of music. Turn it up.

T R E 4 5 O N

Every reporter and pundit should have to declare if they ever vacationed with a billionaire.

It’s not hopeless, and we’re not helpless.

Democrats are back in array!

You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Agonize - Organize / Russiagate Open Thread: One Step At A Time…

Russiagate Open Thread: One Step At A Time…

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Note carefully, he’s not disagreeing with Pelosi — this is the next step in the essential choreography to block off every Repub bolthole:

Former Senate majority leader Harry Reid, who as recently as last month cautioned Democrats about the perils of pursuing President Trump’s impeachment, now says the House should open an impeachment inquiry that might or might not lead to a formal effort to remove him from office.

“It’s not the right thing to do nothing,” Reid said in an interview Monday with USA TODAY. “It’s not the right thing to jump into impeachment without doing an inquiry.”

The most important goal, he said, would be to “give the American people a view of what’s going on.”

The House could establish an impeachment panel to investigate the allegations that some say amount to the “high crimes and misdemeanors” necessary under the Constitution to remove a president from office. But such a panel wouldn’t necessarily vote to impeach Trump — that is, to approve Articles of Impeachment that would send the process to the Senate for a trial….

Reid’s comments are also notable because he had what he called “a front-row seat” at the nation’s last impeachment trial, when Reid was Senate minority leader. Then, the Republican-controlled House voted to impeach Clinton, but the Senate didn’t convict him in the trial that followed.

That impeachment effort rebounded politically against GOP candidates in the 1998 midterm elections.

Reid acknowledged the potential political blowback and the likelihood that the current GOP-controlled Senate would never vote to remove Trump from office…

In the end, he said, “I just think that Republicans are going arm-in-arm with Trump, right over the cliff.” But he said public opinion might be affected by a systematic effort to explore allegations that Trump tried to obstruct the special counsel’s investigation and engaged in other wrongdoing….

Reader Interactions

151Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    Even the educated voters she meets around the country, she said, assume that once you being proceedings, Trump is immediately ousted from office.

    These are the people who will blame Dems when the Senate doesn’t convict.

  2. 2.

    jl

    OK, thanks for info. I didn’t know so many people had so little understanding of how the Constitution works. But, if Pelosi knows this is problem now, I think she should start educating the public in her statements. She should be more specific in her comments about how the process will work.

    I’d like more attention paid to Russian (and probably other governments’) hacking of state voting data bases, which is direct attack on our democracy and one that Mueller warned about twice. Trump will stonewall that oversight too, and can impeach him for that. And why not start with some cabinet secretaries who deserve impeachment?

    And if starting with cabinet secretaries is too hard, maybe start with impeachment of Baud 2020!, that should be a slam dunk.

  3. 3.

    Cheryl Rofer

    I have been thinking of doing a sort of book club series of posts on the Mueller Report. I haven’t quite figured out how to do it yet – just march through the report or follow particular themes. So this is all very vague, but I’d like to get an idea of whether the jackaltariat would find it of interest.

  4. 4.

    Ohio Mom

    I keep thinking of the proverb, A good leader walks behind the people.

    It’s a long wait, waiting for the American people to pick up their pace.

    Once again we can point to the media, who could be carefully exposing the impeachment and conviction process and the differing roles of each half of Congress. As always, falling down on their job.

  6. 6.

    Jay

    And yet, Hope Hicks, caved:

    Caroline Orr
    @RVAwonk
    ·
    6h
    NEW (!): After the White House directed her to defy a subpoena and refuse to provide any documents to Congress, Hope Hicks has agreed to turn over documents related to Trump’s 2016 campaign to congressional investigators, according to a key lawmaker.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1135970425350119424

    Digby notes:

    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/06/one-party-listens-to-their-base-other.html?m=1

    The bottom line is that the Democrats really don’t give a damn what their base thinks. The NY Times’ Michelle Goldberg points out that nonetheless, Democratic voters are making themselves very clear on the issue of impeachment. Their representatives need to start listening:

  10. 10.

    MomSense

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    I’d be interested. I’m slowly listening on audible (free download) but it would be nice to be able to discuss it with other people. I haven’t had much luck putting a Mueller report book club together.

  12. 12.

    MomSense

    I think it was a full year after the Senate Select Committee started investigating the Watergate break in that the House passed a resolution asking the House Judiciary Committee to investigate whether or not Nixon had committed high crimes and misdemeanors.

  13. 13.

    burnspbesq

    @Baud:

    Amen. The self-proclaimed “Democratic base” is way to the left of the majority of Dem and Dem-leaning voters. Everybody except the self-proclaimed “Democratic base” knows this.

  14. 14.

    Brachiator

    @Baud:

    Even the educated voters she meets around the country, she said, assume that once you being proceedings, Trump is immediately ousted from office.

    Jebus Fuck. Impeach or don’t convict, but Pelosi should not use the dumbass citizens as an excuse.

    When the Republicans impeached Bill Clinton, conservative pundits kept trying to lecture the public about how persecuting Clinton was a sacred duty. The public never bought it, but the Republicans proceeded anyway.

    Trump has obstructed justice. He and his corrupt administration will go on to commit greater crimes if they are not dealt with.

    Pelosi is in a tough spot. But she needs to follow the evidence, not just public opinion or public confusion. Part of the process must include explaining what and why without bashing the public over the head, even if they deserve it.

  15. 15.

    Fair Economist

    @Cheryl Rofer: I think a series of posts on the Mueller report would be greatly valued, and probably even a good reference resource for non-jackals. It’s a long heavy report and context and digestion would be great.

  16. 16.

    Richmond Gardner

    I sent my Congressperson a letter saying we ought to dramatize the Mueller Report by having at least two people do a more-or-less dramatic reading of at least the “best” (most visual) portions of the Report. Robert De Niro and Alyssa Milano have been strong anti-Trumpers anyway. Wouldn’t recommend an official setting as Republicans could then interfere. Someplace like the stage of the Philadelphia Orchestra would be good. We could intersperse photos of important players (visuals), etc. Should make for at least a two-hour special!

  18. 18.

    Jay

    @Baud:

    The base are Democratic Party members and voters.

    After the Decoration Day Long Weekend, the zeltgeist shifted.

    If Nancy Smash is running into voters who don’t understand that Impeachment is a process, a marathon, not a sprint, then she should be using her position to educate them and get other Democratic Party Politicians onboard. God knows the MSM won’t.

    You can get free copies of the redacted Mueller Report in a variety of digital formats, with a simple google search,

    There’s half a dozen free audiobooks as well,

    And of course, YouTube readings of the full redacted Mueller report online.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G73iRRgoLKg

  19. 19.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Cheryl Rofer: This would very much be appreciated. I downloaded the report and skimmed parts of it but I haven’t fully read it myself, so I’m loath to bash anyone not in Congress for not having read it.

  20. 20.

    TenguPhule

    @Jay:

    And yet, Hope Hicks, caved:

    Say that after the documents are actually presented, verified and complete.

    They lie and withhold without shame.

  22. 22.

    Mike in DC

    Build up support/pressure then start the impeachment inquiry after Labor Day. Let it go on as long as it appears to remain productive to do so.

  23. 23.

    TenguPhule

    @Brachiator:

    Trump has obstructed justice. He and his corrupt administration will go on to commit greater crimes if they are not dealt with.

    We know they already have.

    They’re not quite ready for open murder of political opponents yet. But that’s only a matter of time now.

  24. 24.

    TenguPhule

    @Baud:

    Dems should listen to voters.

    You mean the ones who sit in midwestern diners all day telling us that foreigners are scary and taking their jobs?

  25. 25.

    Ruckus

    As this is an open thread I thought I’d let off a little steam.
    Fuck Amazon.
    I’m trying to return a product that in no way is the product I ordered and I’m being given the run around by Amazon that it’s the seller that has to do the refund and yet my money went to Amazon.
    They can accept money but not responsibility.
    Gee where have I heard that before……..

  27. 27.

    Dan B

    @Cheryl Rofer: I’d be interested in a dive into Mueller. Themes seems like a valid approach from a not very well informed vantage point. And if you have some observations on how the criminality has affected the US that would be great.

    One speculation is that the Russian interference may have knock on effects on state elections as well as presidential. Or did the interference lead indirectly to blatantly corrupt behavior. One example is McConnell’s Russian oligarch money for the factory in KY. That’s a blatant example but is there anything that shifted the campaign in a more subtle or not immediately obvious way.
    Hope this is helpful.

  28. 28.

    Baud

    @Jay:

    People who whine that they’re the base and the Dems hate them are not people who we can count on. They should be ignored.

    @TenguPhule:

    All the voters we need to be with us.

  29. 29.

    Ruckus

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    It’s involved enough that trying to follow themes would probably drive you batty.
    I’d just start at the beginning and let the conversation go from there. Maybe discuss 5 pages at a time or ten or at least when the report has a break in it. But a discussion of any kind would be great and better than nothing.

  30. 30.

    Dan B

    @Dan B: And another thing of interest would be minor tidbits besides the Russian connections, especially items that have not bern on the media.

  31. 31.

    Ohio Mom

    @Ruckus: I had a little Amazon to-do a couple of months ago myself when I ordered and paid for two pairs of compression fingerless gloves and only got one pair.

    I was told, it’s $18 a Glove, not a Pair. Um no, tne going rate for them is $18 a Pair and that’s what it said on the screen form I filled out.

    Eventually I got a refund but never knowing when you are about to step into the lawless Wild West sections the e-commerce world sure gets old.

  32. 32.

    Brachiator

    @Ruckus:

    I’m trying to return a product that in no way is the product I ordered and I’m being given the run around by Amazon that it’s the seller that has to do the refund and yet my money went to Amazon.

    Something crappy is happening at Amazon. Recently, I did not receive a product I ordered. At first Amazon said a replacement would be shipped. Nothing. Then they said it was a third party seller and they didn’t control the inventory, so they would issue a refund.

    In this case, I was still upset because I was delayed in getting something that I needed quickly. I had gotten used to 1 day delivery.

  33. 33.

    Jay

    @Baud:

    Both Nancy and the Poll are talking about Democratic Party Members and Voters,

    The Bernie Bro’s, the Justice Democrats, the Glem Greenwad’s are not calling for Impeachment, they still think Russian Interference is “fake news”.

  35. 35.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Please do it.

    I downloaded the MR but confess I haven’t read it straight through (although I’ve read most of the extracts posted on line, redacted though they may be).

    I would love a Mueller Report book club chat.

    I’ll even bring the wine.

  36. 36.

    J R in WV

    And we have months to work our way through the whole monstrous complicated thing.

    There are even lawyers here who can kvetch about how we IANAL folk can’t possibly understand a legal document intended for politicians to read and work from. Right? Yeah!

    I think it would be a great thing to do.

    I just heard Rachael say something in the next room about impeaching Mnuchin, who is violating the law by not presenting documents to the House committee. That would a great start, picking off cabinet officials, watching Mitch McConnell protect them no matter what laws they break. Wife said “The hell with Mnuchin, start with Wilbur Ross for money laundering in his Cyprus Bank!”

  37. 37.

    Brachiator

    @Baud:

    I don’t think it’s an excuse. I think it’s explanation of the work they have in front of them.

    The main work that they have in front of them is to impeach Trump’s sorry ass. Everything else is secondary.

    Or they need to drop the whole matter and put all their hopes on the election.

  39. 39.

    RAVEN

    @Ruckus:

    About A-to-z Guarantee
    The Amazon A-to-z Guarantee protects you when you purchase items sold and fulfilled by a third-party seller. Our guarantee covers both the timely delivery and the condition of your items. If either are unsatisfactory, you can report the problem to us and our team will determine if you are eligible for a refund.

    You may be eligible to request a refund under the A-to-z Guarantee if any of the following apply:

    You have not received your package and three days have passed since the maximum estimated delivery date or the tracking shows a delivery confirmation, whichever is sooner.
    You received an order that is different than expected and have requested a return with the seller.
    You returned your item with a trackable shipping method and the seller has not issued you a refund.
    Note: We may require you to first contact the seller and either wait for a response or for 48 hours before you are eligible to request a refund.

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    Note: You have up to 90 days after the maximum estimated delivery date to request a refund under the A-to-z Guarantee.

    Note: The A-to-z Guarantee does not cover digital items, payments for services, stored value instruments. Additionally, if you file a chargeback with your payment provider or bank, you will not be eligible for a refund under the A-to-z Guarantee.

    Note: This guarantee applies only to purchases made on the Amazon.com website from a third-party seller. If you need help with an item sold by Amazon Global Store or a Marketplace item delivered via Prime, contact us. For purchases made on third-party websites using Amazon Pay, go to Amazon Pay help.

  40. 40.

    Jay

    @Baud:

    You are never going to get all the voters.

    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/voters-agree-trump-committed-impeachable-offenses-poll-2019-6

    54% of registered voters are now in favour of Impeachment, up from 34% just two weeks ago.

    Starting the impeachment process, ( investigations, hearings, crafting articles of impeachment), a months and months long process, ( summer break is coming), might get you up to 63%,

    But so far, 37% are all in on Needy Amin no matter what he does.

    It would take a miracle to get his support down to the Allan Keyne’s Crazyfication factor of 27%,

    You are never going to get “all” the voters.

  42. 42.

    Ohio Mom

    @Cheryl Rofer: Chronological order seems like the most practical way but is there some sort of way various themes could be tagged for easy retrieval later?

    I’m imagining being in the middle of a thread and thinking, Hey, this connects to some stuff we talked about last week, and then not being able to find the earlier comments.

  43. 43.

    lamh36

    Evening BJ.
    Tonight was the first night of classes for one of my summer semester courses.

    I’m taking 2 hybrid courses this semester. Each one meets at least once a week for 8 weeks.

  44. 44.

    Baud

    @Jay:

    Never said all. Just a sufficient amount. We’re moving in the right direction because Pelosi didn’t listen to all the wise people on the internet who knew better. Keep building momentum.

  45. 45.

    Jay

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Most American’s don’t pay much attention to politics, or process, and the MSM deliberately trys to turn everything into a horse race, because for most of the MSM, their paycheck depends on not educating the public.

  46. 46.

    lamh36

    I find myself not as plugged into politics as I used to be…it kinda started when I started going babk to school add to that the increase in traveling and politics is no longer my #1 topic…go figure.

    Anyhoo…non-politics since this is an open thread.

    what the hell…this anti-smoking commercial has an animated cartoon character named Jack who is young and walks around with an eggplant in his hand. Jack is know for his eggplant. Jack starts smoking and “loses his eggplant”. tagline… “smoking can cause Eggplant dysfunction”
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a7da519f497388d6512d2630838a8f44b4da78effcaf2d904f7c27050cd4f49d.gif

    these anti-smoking folks are doing too much…LOL

  47. 47.

    Amir Khalid

    @Ruckus:

    It’s involved enough that trying to follow themes would probably drive you batty.

    Cheryl strikes me as a strong person who can handle it on our behalf.

  49. 49.

    zhena gogolia

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    I hope you don’t start before I get back online June 15.

    I’m hoping my copy gets here before I take a long plane trip in a few days — I’m hoping to read it then.

    ETA: I guess I use the word “hope” a lot.

  52. 52.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Jay: @Dorothy A. Winsor: Jay, anyone who’s 35+ years old remembers Blowjobgate.

    It was really, really difficult to avoid. It pissed off Democrats and gave Republicans a 24/7 orgasm for months on end.

  55. 55.

    Brachiator

    @Jay:

    If they drop the whole matter, the Constitution is null and void.

    Trump and the GOP nullified the Constitution a long time ago.

  57. 57.

    lamh36

    I haven’t even watched Always Be My Maybe yet and I’ve already watched the clip with SPOILER ALERT like 10x…I just can’t help myself. Haven’t even seen the film, and I already think it’s the BEST.CAMEO.REVEAL.EVER.

    LOL.

    Eventually I’ll get around to actully watching the movie on Netflix

  58. 58.

    Ruckus

    @Amir Khalid:
    I was more thinking of my limited abilities than her’s. I’m an old and that is starting to show bit by bit, becoming obvious enough that even I can see it. Not quite ready for a blankie and a nurse mind you. Yet…..

  59. 59.

    Ohio Mom

    @lamh36: When I took summer classes, I often resorted to closing the curtains, cranking up the AC, putting on my flannel pj’s and pretending it was winter and I was pulling an all-nighter.

    Because the gentle summer breezes from the open window made it too hard to concentrate. When I reached a good stoping point. I’d put on my shorts and teeshirt and step back into the world.

    Anyway, I think a lot of us take breaks from politics, it can get very overwhelming and depressing at times. You’re studying to advance in a very political field. You’ll be back involved one day, though most likely with a laser focus on health care.

  61. 61.

    Cheryl Rofer

    My reservations about the Mueller report are:
    * IANAL. But I think that it should be mostly amenable to careful reading by anyone.
    * 400+ pages. That is a lot. And it’s dense.
    * I have a very busy last two weeks of June coming up. But there is life after that.

    @Dan B: If I do the Mueller report, I think it best to stick to the Mueller report. It’s quite a bit in itself.

    @Ohio Mom: That’s the kind of thing I’ve been thinking. Maybe I or the commenters can note where stuff connects together.

    Marching through, section by section, would probably be the easiest. It’s hard to know what time of day is best for posting, so I may just go with my own schedule and post when I can. I would try to keep up a reasonable pace – at least two posts per week.

    I haven’t read the whole thing either – I’ve skipped through it and read sections that look particularly juicy. One of the things I would like to do is to get a sense of the whole thing. Working section by section can split up that kind of continuity.

    I’m just thinking out loud here. Open to suggestions.

  62. 62.

    Brachiator

    @Baud:

    Eventually they have to make that decision. It doesn’t have to be today.

    We will see if they decide anything or just come up with more excuses for doing nothing.

  64. 64.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Was looking at those photos of Trump in the crotch-length vest at last night’s State Dinner….

    The joke, the jape, the finite jest,
    The too-long tie, the ill-fit vest;

    The lengthened knuckle-dusting sleeves
    (“Do help me with these cuff-links, Jeeves!”)

    The trousers, breaking at the shin;
    The collar, squeezing up neck skin.

    He’s not a millionaire — he’s broke;
    And not one garment is bespoke.

  67. 67.

    Jay

    @mrmoshpotato:

    And didn’t achieve anything, Impeachment wise, or election wise, until they spent years with the aid of the MSM of weaponising against Hillary Clinton and roiling their base.

    Both YellowDog Grannie and All Hat No Cattle have lot’s of weaponized GIF’s between what ReThugs said then, and say now, if you want to use them.

    And despite that, it took:
    -Clinton Cash,
    -Bengazhi!!!!!!!!!
    -Uranium One
    -Butter Emailz
    -endless MSM recycling
    -Russian, Israeli, UAE, Chinese, Russian, Macedonian, Cambridge Analetica, ReThug, NRA social media ratfucking and illegal campaigns and funding,
    – Bernie, Bernie Bro’s and Stein ratfucking,
    -massive voter repression and poll fucking,
    -massive ReThug and Needy Amin assistance for all these efforts,
    -Yurtle the Turtles Cover Up,

    To win the Electoral College by less than 80,000 votes in 3 key States while losing the popular vote by over 3 million votes,

  68. 68.

    Ruckus

    Thanks everyone for the Amazon replies. I’m going through the process and it isn’t any fun, which of course is the way Amazon likes it.
    @Brachiator:
    Once ordered something and the tracking said it was being transferred from their warehouse to the post office. Both in Ontario CA. That of course took 3 days before they would make anything happen. Canceled the order and reordered at their suggestion. Man that must be a huge hole in that road between warehouse – post office because it happened again, 2 trucks swallowed whole. I canceled the order, again. Bought the item somewhere else. But these days that’s getting harder to do without a lot of work. Maybe I’ll do the smart thing and just not buy anything from Amazon ever again. I’m semi retired and most anything I actually need I can find somewhere else……..

  69. 69.

    Karen

    All these people demanding impeachment should be aware that impeachment requires the Senate and there’s no way it’s passing there. Why are we pretending that’s not the case? What’s the point of the House doing it and looking weak when Trump survives it?

    There’s a rumor that Bernie took money from the RNC in 2016.

  70. 70.

    PPCLI

    The point of these hearings is to get the evidence out in front of the public. Lots of it. Drag it out. Why were the Republicans salivating about what Chaffetz (or perhaps Gowdy, can’t remember which …) called the “target rich environment” they viewed a Hillary presidency as serving up? Because they wanted to actually impeach her? No: Because they understand that when you investigate, you have some control over the flow of information. You can prevent the administration from hiding their scandals. You can put people under oath, upping the risk of lying. You can force Elaine Chao to explain what the hell was the deal with her financial interests in China, for example. You can put Nielsen under oath concerning the family separation policy, and demand answers about when they will be reunited. And you do it in a way that even the Chuck Todd’s of the world will give camera time too, because explosive hearings are good TV.

    Emphasize that Muller said that he couldn’t confidently clear the president because obstacles had been put in his way: people had lied, messages had been destroyed, pardons had been offered, etc. So now Congress will need to take up his search.

    Repeat when asked: if the evidence says impeachment, we will impeach. But the American people need to get the truth first, and the Trumpers are fighting tooth and nail to keep that information from the American people.

    Get the facts first, and there are clearly a lot of horrifying facts to get, so it will take a long time.

  71. 71.

    Percysowner

    @Jay: The bottom line is that Nancy Pelosi really DOES know what she is doing. She cares about her base. She also cares about the Democrats who aren’t the base, and who aren’t ready for impeachment yet. The House has several committees holding hearings on Trump’s actions, they just aren’t for impeachment, at least not yet.

    The Watergate hearings took quite a while to get started and never actually reached the stage of impeachment. Taking their time is not necessarily a bad thing. The truth is no one knows what will happen if/when the House starts impeachment.

    “You come for the King, you best not miss.” Right now, the Senate is set up so that the Democrats will miss with impeachment. But, with the other hearings, they can work at a death by a thousand cuts, keeping up the pressure on Trump and the Republicans. Plus Trump seems determined to alienate the Republicans by putting tariffs on EVERYTHING, ‘You get a tariff and you get a tariff! Great Britain dump your Health Care system or You get a tariff” The Republican money men are feeling uneasy with all the tariffs. That could crack the Republican defensive line around Trump.

  76. 76.

    PPCLI

    @Karen: Nobody got convicted for the interminable Benghazi hearings, but they did a lot of damage to Hillary. And they turned up a lot of information that hurt her, not least the bit about the private server. These investigations can go on a long time, because there will always be more sleaze hiding under another rock.

    ETA: And furthermore, when Trump is under serious pressure, he goes bananas. Let him get nuttier and nuttier, and eventually he will lose everyone who isn’t a already a hopeless cause.

  78. 78.

    John Revolta

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: @mrmoshpotato:
    The Monica and Bill show was great fun (for the GOPers) and everybody had a good laugh. But, since the impeachment was ultimately unsuccessful, it’s been Memory Holed. The people who do remember it just think it was some kind of hearing, certainly not the end result of a 40 million dollar snipe hunt run in part by our latest Supreme Court embarrassment.

  79. 79.

    Jay

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Section by section would probably be best.

    I’ve started printing out the redacted report, with large spacing under the redacted parts, because some people like Robert Young Pelton, Emptywheel and others are trying to peel back some of the redactions based on:

    – news stories that wern’t covered well at the time concerning the ususal suspects,
    – what’s coming out now with the Mozambique dirty,
    – the Somalia dirty,
    – the UAE connections,
    – the Wagner/Russia/UAE/Eric Prince arms/merc deals in Africa, Yemen and the UAE,
    – etc.

    I’m gonna go back and start making notes.

  80. 80.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Jay:

    until they spent years with the aid of the MSM of weaponising against Hillary Clinton and roiling their base.

    I’d say achievement achieved.

    The bastards.

  84. 84.

    Ohio Mom

    @mrmoshpotato: I was not yet a parent back then but very good friends had two children in the “Daddy and Mommy do WHAT?!” stage.

    They had at least one interesting family conversation about cigars and related topics that I’m guessing no one has forgotten (I wasn’t there, only heard about it second hand, and I sure remember).

    But maybe the fact that the Clinton impeachment was such a circus, and so unserious, is coloring peoples’ view of a Trump impeachment.

  85. 85.

    Brachiator

    @NotMax:

    Heh. Am ecstatic if get one week delivery

    I used to think that Hawaii must be a total Paradise. Now I think of it as Paradise with a big asterisk.

  90. 90.

    Ohio Mom

    Gotta go. Had my second cataract removed and it’s time for yet another round of eye drops.

  91. 91.

    Jay

    @Percysowner:

    Well aware of that. In two weeks support for starting the Impeachment process has gone from 34% to 54%, even if Nancy’s right and most Democratic Party Voters, don’t understand the Impeachment Process.

    In many regards, the Commitee’s have already started the process.

    The MSM is never going to explain the Impeachment Process to the American Public, so it’s up to the Democratic Party to do so.

    The Public is asking the question, so maybe every Democratic Party Town Hall speaker should have a couple paragraph answer ( uniform messaging) and a paper pamphlet that explains the process in more detail, with online links to websites, you tube, audio book options.

    My one complaint about how Nancy is handling it is this, she’s not educating an ignorant public who have had a major shift in position, nor has she engaged the Democratic Party in doing so.

    The ReThug’s always feed the base, ( tainted red meat mostly),

    A bunch of the new crop of Democratic Party “stars” understand that most of their constituents would fail a Grade 10 Civics test but would pass a 200 question Kardashian test. So they manage to both teach and inform, rather than relying on them to self educate.

    Most of the older Democratic Party relies on people self educating. They arn’t feeding the base.

  92. 92.

    Brachiator

    @Karen:

    All these people demanding impeachment should be aware that impeachment requires the Senate

    Well, not quite. But we know what you mean.

    Even if Trump were to be impeached by the House on the basis of incontrovertible evidence, and the Senate failed to convict, the spotlight would fall on those senators who failed to do their duty, and there might be political consequences.

  94. 94.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Jay: I need to look at the report in more detail, but I probably won’t try to peel back the redactions. I am in awe at the concentration and attention to detail that Emptywheel is putting into this, but that’s not what I want to do. I want to get a big picture – is there a Saudi connection equivalent to the Russian one? Will Bunch suggested that, and I think it was Anne (or possibly Betty) who posted his speculation in the last day or so. But when I drill down on those speculations, I’m never fully convinced.

    I think I will stick pretty closely to the Mueller report, just to try to understand it. And will leave open questions where there are redactions. I might make some quick speculations, but I’ll be careful to label them as such.

  96. 96.

    Immanentize

    @J R in WV:

    There are even lawyers here who can kvetch about how we IANAL folk can’t possibly understand a legal document intended for politicians to read and work from. Right? Yeah!

    Really? I haven’t seen anyone here say anything remotely like that. But I don’t read every thread….

  97. 97.

    Brachiator

    @NotMax:

    Laid back lifestyle; things move at their own pace. If there’s an asterisk, it’s a big rainbow-colored one

    I thought that California was laid back until I dealt with customers in Hawaii. Some seemed to not even open their offices before 11 am.

  98. 98.

    NotMax

    @Brachiator

    Limiting the actions of the House to what the Senate might approve is a cession of power and authority not to be desired.

  101. 101.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Ohio Mom: I agree. The most recent impeachment was such a glaring shit show that it’s possible a lot of people don’t take it seriously.

    The Repuklicans also had the advantage of it being Bill’s second term. Regardless of the amount of damage to the Clintons, there was no risk it would energize re-election.

  102. 102.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Immanentize: my only concern is that posters could get in trouble for the unauthorized practice of law. We must protect the jackals!

  104. 104.

    Redshift

    I was listening to a recent Chris Hayes podcast interviewing journalist David Maraniss about how family’s experience being a target of McCarthyism. Asked for his perspective about how such hysteria happened, one thing Mariniss mentioned is that Republicans seized on anticommunism as a tool to attack the New Deal and weaken the Democrats by portraying them as week on a foreign threat. (And, I will add, this is arguably the origin, along with Eisenhower, of “Republicans are strong in national security.”)

    We have a Republican Party that is actually selling out the country to a hostile foreign power. We need to work to make sure it destroys them, that people know they’re weak on national security no matter how much money they shovel to the Pentagon…

    No, I don’t know how to do this. But we damn well shouldn’t shy away from trying.

  106. 106.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

    Even the educated voters she meets around the country, she said, assume that once you being proceedings, Trump is immediately ousted from office

    A majority of voters lived through the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton. Do they forget so quickly that such proceedings do NOT lead to a president being ousted from office? Do they forget that a democratic Senate did not vote to convict?

  110. 110.

    Redshift

    @mrmoshpotato: I don’t think the Clinton impeachment experience contradicts the misunderstanding a lot of people have that impeachment=removal. You’ll often hear people say the GOP tried to impeach Clinton.

  115. 115.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Omnes Omnibus: Tonight’s score. Is the Marlins’ fish slapping dance mercifully over yet?

    Milwaukee should be docked 2 games for this asskicking by the worst team in the NL East.

  116. 116.

    Steve in the ATL

    @SiubhanDuinne: UPL is as real as climate change, and possibly as dangerous to the world. We must protect lawyers’ incomes; it’s a moral imperative.

  118. 118.

    Jay

    @Karen:

    The purpose of the Impeachment Process is to:

    A) preserve Article 1 of the Constitution of the United States,

    B) pick “one” Needy Amin “high crimes and malfesance”, investigate and pound on it day after day with full media coverage rather than haring after the Needy Amin twitter scandal/crime due jour as the MSM does,

    C) peel off and impeach/charge/try/convict Needy Amin’s Minions in the Administration and quite possibly, Senators like Nunes, Yurtle and Gowdy,

    D) Through the detailed exposures and media coverage make sitting ReThugs to openly side with Needy Amin/foreign control of the US Govornment and break their oaths of office, retire early to spend more time with their lawyers, or uphold their oaths of office,

    E) Get more Americans to pay more attention to politics and less attention to the Batchelor, through media coverage, education as to the process, the crimes and great “moments”,

    F) move the Overton Window.

    The same reason the Democratic Party keeps legislating even though almost none of it passes the Senate. It moves the Overton Window, bit by bit.

  119. 119.

    James E Powell

    @Baud:

    I don’t think it’s an excuse. I think it’s explanation of the work they have in front of them.

    But are they explaining how much work they have to do or are they explaining why they are not going to do it? They impression they are leaving with the public is the latter. That may be due to the distortions of the press/media or the average person’s loose connection with the subtleties of political language common among Democrats. But that is the message that’s being heard and it’s the opposite of how to win in 2020.

  121. 121.

    Immanentize

    I had dinner this evening with one of the greatest juvenile attorneys in this country. She is largely responsible for the legal strategies that moved the supreme court to it’s current “kids are different” cases in sentencing, Miranda warnings, etc. She also led the “kids for cash” litigation in Pennsylvania. We spent about five minutes talking about Impeachment. We also spent three hours talking about various cases and litigation plans regarding some immediate kids who need help (or folks who were once kids who need help) right now, like Lee Boyd Malvo.

    It’s a koan.

  123. 123.

    Kay

    rickgladstone
    ‏@rickgladstone
    4h4 hours ago
    More
    Mr. Trump said Britain’s national health care system would be part of any trade deal with the US — an assertion he later walked back after it had caused an uproar.

    Guffaw. They hate him more than we do. Sadly for us, they get to ship him back here.

    He went over there to fuck up their health care system. Brings nothing but misery.

  124. 124.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @mrmoshpotato: Okay. That is ugly. I know not to call my mom tonight. She is the true fan of the family. But when I saw your comment, I immediately went to google to check on Uek’s health; I am not over Bart Starr yet.

  126. 126.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Kay: perhaps I’m ignorant in the ways of international commerce, but what would a trade deal have to do with national health care systems?

  128. 128.

    NotMax

    @Steve in the ATL

    He (and also our ambassador to the Court of St. James, who made the initial statement) has no idea what NHS stands for. Probably believes it’s a brand of ketchup.

  129. 129.

    Jay

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    I wasn’t suggesting you do.

    I’m going to try to make notes on the “peeled back” redactions so I can add them in, in the comments.

    There’s an ongoing scandal/investigation in Mozambique where Prince, backed by Nadler, Russia, China, Sawdi Arabia and the UAE, would create a tuna fishery, with loans to Mozambique, and in turn, Prince would create and run a Anti-Piracy Merc force, to protect the proposed gas fields.

    A bunch of the ususal suspects, including offshore accounts show up, and of course, it dead ended with nothing to show for it, because Prince took a slice on every step of the chain, and other double dipping emptied the accounts before a single boat was put in the water.

    Still, Banks made the loans and the Government of Mozambique guaranteed them.

    And a bunch of the timelines, peoples and places overlap with redacted portions of the Mueller Report.

  130. 130.

    Immanentize

    @Steve in the ATL:
    What is the value of any bi-lateral trade deal with the UK post Brexit? They really do not have a lot to sell us, do they? But they do have a completely closed market Monopoly in healthcare that US and multinational corporations are just itching to own. NHS is a complete capture market that health care providers, big pharma, health tech, all want a piece of.

    A hard Brexit will just be an excuse for the US and multinationals to pick the bones of a country that will no longer have the tax base to support it’s universal health Care system. It will be for sale.

    The trade deal will be about accessing such currently off limit markets.

  132. 132.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Jay: I think we don’t know half of what Prince was/is up to, but it’s no good.

    This just showed up on my Twitter TL.

  134. 134.

    Jay

    @Immanentize:

    And any remaining assets that the Billionaires Boys Brexiteer Vulture Funds that have fled to the EU Tax havens don’t pick clean at a pence on the pound.

  139. 139.

    janesays

    @MomSense: It was almost precisely a year to the day… It was on February 7, 1973 when the Senate passed a resolution to establish the Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities (AKA the Watergate Committee), and it was on February 6, 1974 when the House passed a resolution to give the Judiciary Committee the authority to begin an impeachment inquiry.

    What’s different today is that there will be no senate select committee formed to investigate this president, because unlike in 1973, the Democrats don’t call the shots in the upper chamber of Congress this time.

  140. 140.

    Ruckus

    @Steve in the ATL:
    A failed national healthcare system that has been in operation longer than shit for brains has been shit for brains out of diapers would give him major ammunition to go after the ACA, which of course was a major accomplishment of his predecessor and extremely better all around human being than the shit for brains he sees in the mirror. He may never be able to admit that he’s shit for brains but he knows he is. Know that is what drives him. Proving he’s not shit for brains is beyond him farther than the distance from Atlanta to the moon and he probably knows that as well but he’s going to prove he’s not shit for brains or kill all of us for trying.

  141. 141.

    Ruckus

    @Brachiator:
    @Amir Khalid:
    Amazon has grown too big. It can not ship the amount of stuff it sells, Jeff can not make enough money if he pays everyone a reasonable salary, and retail has basically shot itself in the lower body regions by not understanding that the internet allows us to see what they aren’t trying to sell us. It gives us a bigger choice, something that most retail doesn’t do. What retail can do is help people who don’t want to shop and wait for product.

  143. 143.

    Jay

    @Ruckus:

    There’s Burr,

    “On March 16, 2017, the White House counsel’s office was briefed by Burr on “4-5 targets” of the Russia probe, according to notes taken by McGahn’s chief of staff, Annie Donaldson.”

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/18/burr-mueller-probe-white-house-1282098

    Senate Judiciary Commitee Aide Barbera Ledeen,

    Add the NRA to the Laundered Russian Mob money and there’s more than a few vacacies that are possible:

    https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2018/05/08/putins-proxies-helped-funnel-millions-gop-campaigns

  144. 144.

    prostratedragon

    @Cheryl Rofer: Plenty of interest here. I have a copy but have been finding the small print exhausting to read. Good posts could motivate me.

    There should also be public readings all over the country. Maybe do-it-yourself jamborees, where members of the audience could stand and deliver the current passage as they felt inspired. We could rediscover polyphony!

  147. 147.

    Chris Johnson

    @Immanentize:

    What is the value of any bi-lateral trade deal with the UK post Brexit? They really do not have a lot to sell us, do they? But they do have a completely closed market Monopoly in healthcare that US and multinational corporations are just itching to own. NHS is a complete capture market that health care providers, big pharma, health tech, all want a piece of.

    A hard Brexit will just be an excuse for the US and multinationals to pick the bones of a country that will no longer have the tax base to support it’s universal health Care system. It will be for sale.

    The trade deal will be about accessing such currently off limit markets.

    I feel like this is better characterized as a war of conquest and destruction, killing entire populations. When you look at the inevitable results of this sort of thing, surely this counts as warfare? A war against the people that is far from over even on American soil. It’ll only be over when all Americans have to pay all their money to Big Pharma etc. and get absolutely nothing but death in return. Anything less is profits not taken.

    That sounds overblown and it’s intentionally inflammatory, but what do you even think would happen?

    It’s basically war. Conquest, tribute, pillaging. You can dress it up with words like ‘markets’ but they are pitifully inappropriate. Maybe confronting the specter of this attacking the UK and their already weakened NHS will help clarify what it is.

  148. 148.

    J R in WV

    @zhena gogolia:

    ETA: I guess I use the word “hope” a lot.

    Thinking hope is mostly what we have today, tonight. Like the Brits hoping to stay within the EU… while knowing this is unlikely..

  149. 149.

    J R in WV

    @Immanentize:

    @J R in WV:

    There are even lawyers here who can kvetch about how we IANAL folk can’t possibly understand a legal document intended for politicians to read and work from. Right? Yeah!

    Really? I haven’t seen anyone here say anything remotely like that. But I don’t read every thread….

    You may need to readjust your ssnark detector, please?!

  150. 150.

    J R in WV

    @eemom:

    Been mercifully away for awhile….forgot what a nest of Neville Chamberlain chickenshits this place is.

    And a mercy it was, you being gone I mean. Neville is useful and sweet compared to you, and yes, i know he’s been dead for a very long time.

  151. 151.

    J R in WV

    @Steve in the ATL:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I believe the preferred format is “fuckem”

    I thot it was fuck ’em… with that required apostrophe for the missing “th”

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