So, Trump was interviewed by Piers Morgan on “Good Morning Britain” today, and he projectile-vomited a spray of excuses about why he didn’t serve in Vietnam, including that he was “never a fan” of that war and “nobody had ever heard of the country.” Morgan, a Trump toady who once applied for the White House chief of staff job, didn’t press Trump about faking a disability to dodge the draft, and he allowed Trump to claim he is making up for it now by increasing defense spending.
Iraq War veteran and US Senator Tammy Duckworth wasn’t having that shit, friends. Here are her tweets on the topic in paragraph form:
#CadetBoneSpurs: no one cares whether you were a “fan” of the Vietnam War. No one believes you were medically unfit to serve. You used your wealth & privilege to avoid serving your country five times, forcing another American to serve in your place each time.
Now, you’re stealing billions from @DeptofDefense’s budget to fund a wall you promised Mexico would pay for. You’re failing to support military families by taking away caregiver funding. You’re kicking out Americans who *are* willing to serve only because they’re transgender.
Sane people aren’t “fans” of war—only #StableGeniuses would even think that. I’ve met many #WWII #DDay Vets. None ever said they were fans of war. They simply answered their nation’s call, regardless of what they thought. Especially during the draft—it wasn’t optional for them.
These comments only make one thing clear: @realDonaldTrump got his deferments for the wrong thing. They shouldn’t have been for his disappearing, imaginary bone spurs—they should have been for that yellow streak down his back. At least that would have been a real condition.
Thank you, Senator Duckworth. Pete Buttigieg also recently dragged Trump for faking a disability to dodge the draft, noting that he (Buttigieg) admires people who were conscientious objectors but disapproves of rich assholes buying their way out of service via fraud. (I’m paraphrasing!)
Anyhoo, a couple of weeks ago, Post columnist Paul Waldman asked if it’s time for Democrats to talk about Trump’s draft dodging. Yes, it is.
Open thread.
meander
Looking forward to checking the “never a fan” box or the “This isn’t like I’m fighting against Nazi Germany” box on my military deployment form to be released from the obligation to serve in the military if drafted, or to avoid be deployed to a combat zone if already serving…
trollhattan
Had to read that twice. Ahh, thanks, senator!
rikyrah
Just got finished watching Rocket Man. I am stunned. It wasn’t what I thought it would be. It was outstanding ???
It’s a miracle that Elton John is still alive. He lived ALL of that. Taron Egerton was amazing.
I want to see it again.???
TomatoQueen
Avoiding conscription is a time-honored tradition, much European history and our own immigration history were fueled by draft-dodgers’ antics. The first draft dodger I can think of is John James Audubon, and aren’t we glad he got away. Also to, I am from New Haven and the era of Staughton Lynd, William Sloane Coffin, and other such stalwarts, so I have little to no trouble with such behavior. What I cannot abide is the fraudulent claim of disability that forced someone else to risk his life. That shouldn’t stand.
burnspbesq
Trump apparently doesn’t know that Ireland is an independent nation.
cope
I have read that bone spurs are permanent deposits that will forever be visible in X-ray images. I look forward to the president* sharing those images once this becomes an election issue. I’m sure he keeps those X-rays in the same filing cabinet as his tax returns.
SenyorDave
It is time to put everything about Trump on the table. One of the reasons that Republicans are so successful in elections is that they take a few messages and keep hitting everyone over the head with them again and again. For Trump I would definitely key on:
1. The constant lying
2. Draft evasion (and his jokes about evading the draft, including comparing his avoidance of getting an STD with going to Vietnam) and denigration of legitimate military heroes.
3. The Trump Foundation – it was a slush fund
4. Shady financial dealings
chopper
brutal. that’s gotta sting. well, it would if trump had any shame.
feebog
I lost one of my closest friends last year to lung cancer. He was 100% disabled due to exposure to Agent Orange and gunshot wounds. He wasn’t a fan of the war either, but he was drafted and he served. Honorably. Trump can go fuck himself.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TomatoQueen:
Fixed it for ya.
OzarkHillbilly
@cope: The bone spurs in my neck haven’t gone anywhere in 13 years.
The Dangerman
Oh, Mighty Anagram Generator, what’s an anagram for Trump Bone Spurs?
“Numb Supporters”
Clearly, Mr. Anagram would have preferred a D over the N.
zhena gogolia
Does the site look weird to anyone else in Chrome?
lumpkin
Democrats should keep bringing up real people (with their or survivors’ approval) who did serve and weren’t fans either. Over and over again. Bush got away with chickening out and being too addicted to cocaine by smearing Kerry, who didn’t fight back. Maybe they’ve finally learned to hit and hit hard. No need to fight dirty when the truth is on your side and saying he’s got a yellow streak or is chicken or whatever is just speaking the truth. I hope that Dems keep hammering trump on this. In our military-obsessed culture, this should be very effective.
Peale
Laughing at the idea that the GOP Senators will stop those Tarriffs on US Goods manufacturered in Mexico. Yeah. They’ll stand up any day now.
Betty Cracker
@zhena gogolia: Looks different on Chrome mobile but the same on desktop. Hmmm.
Peale
@burnspbesq: Maybe the GOP position should be “Ireland shouldn’t be free.” It’s a vote getter.
BruceFromOhio
Zing! Please proceed, Senator!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@zhena gogolia: Looks fine on Chrome on a Win10 desktop.
mrmoshpotato
I look forward to re-electing Senator Duckworth in 2022.
Gin & Tonic
@burnspbesq:
A sentence that opens like that could have a million possible endings.
mrmoshpotato
@Gin & Tonic: Just a million? Aren’t we being generous! :)
MagdaInBlack
@mrmoshpotato:
Oh me too. Isn’t she something !
patrick II
Last night on MSNBC it was reported that in Trump’s settlement with Marla Maples, Tiffany would be cut off if she joined the military or Peace Corps. A strange man with strange hates.
germy
Ben Cisco
@feebog: I lost my BIL the same way. Orange Foolius can kiss my ass.
SenyorDave
@germy: Rep. Richard Neal, chair of Ways & Means, says no thanks, he won’t ask for them because it might look like a fishing expedition, and that would be unseemly
I have to agree with Neal on that one, it seems like that is something for NYS authorities to be looking at. That being said, the Democrats in Congress are going to run the risk of looking like a bunch of wusses.
oatler.
Ronald Reagan, John Wayne, Ted Nugent…Rs love them some draft dodgers.
Baud
@SenyorDave:
I remember when Udall in Colorado tried this with abortion rights. It didn’t go well.
SFAW
@Gin & Tonic:
No kidding. Far easier to enumerate the endings for “Trump knows …”
Right now, I can only think of five or so:
1) Jack
2) Shit
3) Jack shit
4) Fuck-all
5) Nothing
I’m sure there are more in the same vein. (Or in the Traitor-in-Chief’s case “same vain.”)
Mart
OT Speaking of strong women legislators, read that AOC said Bannon should not be confined to solitary at Rikers Island, that this is torture, and that Bannon and all other prisoners should not be exposed to it.
Baud
@germy:
Stop listening to tweets. Agree or disagree with the decision, but it’s a litigation strategy to get the federal returns.
zhena gogolia
I know I’ve said I’m not interested in tearing down any Dem candidates, but Buttigieg’s e-mails do annoy me when they send a link to a video and say “Take a watch.” That just sets my teeth on edge.
Ohio Mom
@TomatoQueen: My grandfathers and their brothers all left Eastern Europe for the US to avoid being drafted.
Oldest son came first, worked and saved up money so the next oldest would have the cash to get across the Atlantic. After that it was the sisters’ turns. It was sort of like a chain (haha).
Later their sons went back to Europe (and a few to the Pacific) to fight in WWII. The connecting thread is that really, really didn’t like Europe’s anti-Semitic regimes and were very grateful for all this country had provided them and their families.
I don’t think Trump’s draft-dodging is the single worst thing he ever did, there are so many choices for that category. But all his wrongdoings need to be listed.
Maybe the draft-dodging will be the straw for some people while Trump making money off the presidency or accepting Russia’s help to get elected or (fill in the blank) doesn’t particularly faze them.
Josie
@Mart: I’m thinking you meant Manifort instead of Bannon?
TenguPhule
@Mart:
Admirable as her sentiment might be, she picked a lousy time and definitely the wrong poster boy for it.
Kent
@SenyorDave:
The problem is that EVERYTHING he touches turns corrupt. He has a reverse Midas-Touch.
Trump Business: NYT has exposed some of the massive corruption there.
Trump Foundation: Slush fund run for his enrichment
Trump University: Multi-million out-of-court settlement for fraud.
Trump Campaign: Horribly corrupt as Mueller has told us in detail. How many convictions so far?
Trump Inaguaration: Another slush fund for his enrichment
Trump DC Hotel: Emoluments corruption?
Trump Golf Courses: Bills the Secret Service for millions
Trump Cabinet: Grifters every last one of them.
There is literally NOTHING he touches that isn’t corrupt.
Ohio Mom
@patrick II: Maybe the similarity is that both the military and the Peace Corps are austere lifestyles? It wouldn’t do for Trump to be seen in anything but the most lavish surroundings.
Kent
@patrick II:
Who the fuck has so much bile that it would even occur to them to put this sort of thing into a divorce settlement? And WTF is a clause like this doing in a divorce settlement anyway. He isn’t divorcing Tiffany, she is still his daughter. If she is actually joining the military or Peace Corps then she would be over the age of 18 and not subject to child support anyway. It’s just fucking weird and obsessive/controlling in an abusive way.
As a former Peace Corps volunteer, I’d love to see Tiffany actually join up. Although that would likely be impossible now due to the security concerns about a member of the first family serving out in the middle of nowhere in some 3rd country. The military wouldn’t be impossible though. Long history of presidential children doing that.
debbie
Can’t get past the paywall, but I hope Waldman pointed to all the abuse candidate Bill Clinton got for not having served. It only seems fair. //
How long until Senator Duckworth joins the ranks of the nasty?
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Is that an Indiana thing?
Jay
“House Majority Leader rejects DOJ’s offer of documents in return for stopping Barr contempt vote
On Tuesday, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that he will be rejecting the Justice Department’s proposed deal to narrow congressional subpoenas and suspend the upcoming contempt vote against Attorney General William Barr.”
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/06/house-majority-leader-rejects-dojs-offer-of-documents-in-return-for-stopping-barr-contempt-vote/
Leto
This mirrors what I stated for my reasons for going to Iraq in an earlier thread. Thank you, Senator Duckworth. The moral cowardice of this putrid pustule is fucking galling. The fact that Republicans continue to stand by him is a continuing display of their moral depravity. JFC this makes me so mad.
Cacti
@debbie:
John Kerry got attacked for serving honorably.
Somehow, speaking out against the war he was wounded in made him less patriotic than a guy who got jumped to the head of the line for National Guard duty, and another guy who got five draft deferments.
Because Democrat.
Nicole
The agreement was military, Peace Corps or a full-time job. I think he just wanted to get out of paying child support as soon as possible.
Baud
@Cacti:
Exactly.
...now I try to be amused
@Ohio Mom:
The old Russian Empire drafted men for a 25-year hitch. A draftee’s village mourned his departure with what amounted a funeral because they expected never to see him again. That was a draft worth dodging.
--bd
Even better, while solitary confinement is usually used as psychological torture or excessive cruel punishment, I have a feeling that in Manafort’s case, it’s more for his own protection. There’s gotta be someone who would want to score some points for Semion Mogilevich at Riker’s.
lamh36
Evening BJ peeps.
Today was a class night (online), very interesting discussion on Self Awareness and why it’s important to “know yourself” and your triggers before entering into the management field
One of my summer classes is on Organization Behaviour and Health Care Management. Just started, but it involves learning proven management practices, proven strategies when woking with or overseeing employees, conflict resolution, how to motivate, etc. I’ve only taken 3 course in the HCM program and I’ve already learned great management skills and I’m noticing how some of my supervisor past and present could have benefited from taking these courses, esp the ones who just fell into the job of supervising others. Definitely glad to be a part of this program before just jumping into a management or supervisory position. I like to be better prepared.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c39d86dc32bc1730c315da32fc2d5370e6015489760d25d8237a9a4a046124ae.gif
Ruckus
@feebog:
I sat with 6 gentlemen, 2 of them officers, all of them black, all who served in Vietnam, while we waited for our cancer treatment appointments and none of them had a fake condition and the money to buy their way out of serving. One of them had his brother pass away in the VA hospital, his brother whom he served with in Vietnam.
Agent Orange and black heritage go together like ice cream and hot fudge. Way to well. Wanna bet how they feel about shit for brains?
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
I have no idea.
rikyrah
@Mart:
It’s not torture if it keeps Manifort alive. Lot of Russians at Rikers.
debbie
@Leto:
You might enjoy this SNL opening bit.
Jharp
Senator Duckworth is a national treasure.
Donald Trump is a vile piece of shit. The very worst of America.
ruemara
@Mart: She doesn’t know the difference between protective custody and solitary. Jesus, can someone help her just open offices and shut her mouth?
rikyrah
The deplorables are upset about a picture of Black female graduates from West Point.
Portia McGonagal of Winterfell (@PortiaMcGonagal) Tweeted:
I’m ????. The big bad snowflake babies of the right are pitching a fit because of this. They are so fragile.
https://t.co/d9ysYTsWyY https://twitter.com/PortiaMcGonagal/status/1136363269243883521?s=17
FelonyGovt
Don’t know if it’s been posted before, but Biden supports leaving the Hyde Amendment in place. That’s a real problem for me.
Steeplejack (phone)
@patrick II:
It was child support that would be cut off. Presumably if she joined one of those she would be working, so Donald would no longer need to support her. Gotta save every penny, you know.
debbie
@rikyrah:
Oh, just tell them to go join that Straight Pride parade. //
Baud
@FelonyGovt:
Agree. Hillary (and Sanders) proposed an end to Hyde in 2016, so this would be a backwards move from that.
Jay
@Mart:
@TenguPhule:
Rikers and the broken use of Solitary Confinement in US Prison’s has been an in issue for Andrea Ocasio Cortez for a long time.
It started when one of her constituents raised the issue of her nephew, who has been in solitary, in Rikers, with out trial, for a civil disturbance arrest, in solitary confinement, for almost 4 years, because he’s a schitzophrenic. And of course, medical care and medication isn’t even close to being proplerly supplied.
That Paul Manifort, a high value, high profile prisoner, has to be kept in solitary confinement, because he’s not safe in gen pop, that there is no such thing as minimal risk segregation, that there is no mental ward, and that other than solitary, everbody from convicted murderers to people awaiting trial for parking tickets are mixed and mingled together, says something that needs be said.
Betty
@lamh36: Congratulations! This should really help you and, as a result, help the people you supervise to be better at what they do.
dnfree
@TomatoQueen: There is such a thing as taking a principled stand, either against all war or against a particular war like the Vietnam War, in which the United States misread the situation and refused to recognize reality. Then there is refusing to serve in a war which otherwise you either don’t object to or actively support. Dick Cheney, father of Liz, fell into the”actively support” category with regard to the Vietnam War, which to me is the most despicable stance. I don’t know whether Trump supported the war or was indifferent to it, but he was not in the first category.
chris
@rikyrah: What a good looking group! I’m just looking at their uniforms and insignias. There appear to be different ranks and I would have thought that graduates would all be the same kind of junior officer. Someone here will know so I’ll apologise in advance for my foreign ignorance.
Mike in NC
Both Trump and Romney were draft dodgers who enthusiastically supported other people fighting and possibly dying in a pointless war.
Fat Bastard will embarrass us all over again tomorrow in Normandy. “Many fine people fought under the Swastika, believe me!”
Jay
Pounding on President Bone Spurs for draft evasion isn’t going to convert many ReThugs, Magat’s, Deplorables and the Economically Anxious*,
Since the middle of the Vietnam War, their praise of the Military and Military Service has been nothing but empty lip service, cheerleading new wars and cutting VA funds and services.
*Mediocre White males earning $70k to $117 billion a year.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I used to say if old George Romney saw the Mittlets he’d be embarrassed (I may be overestimating him, but he seems to have been a decent man). Apparently Willard’s younger brother raises even less admirable children
prostratedragon
@zhena gogolia: ****YOU MEAN THE GREAT BIG HEADERS?*** she bellowed.
I’d been getting that for a couple of days on my android phone, but not here on the desktop with firefox.
Brachiator
Taoiseach (Irish PM) Leo Varadkar had to soft pedal Trump’s ignorance about BREXIT and the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. From BBC News
Jim, Foolish Literalist
also, at some point during the campaign, didn’t trump brag that he was the best high school baseball player (maybe athlete) in the state of NY, and could have played pro but his dad made him become a business genius? can you run around bases with bone spurs?
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s times like these that I’m glad I’m not a veteran.
FlipYrWhig
Remember when the Online Left, e.g. Daily Kos, despised Tammy Duckworth because they said she had been foisted on them by Rahm Emanuel and The Establishment? Ah, 2006, it was a cynical time.
Baud
@FlipYrWhig:
I actually don’t remember that. I remember when they hated Gillibrand.
Gin & Tonic
@–bd:
Exactly.
My wife worked there for a few years. Soft guys like Manafort don’t do very well in gen pop there.
VOR
@rikyrah: I saw a meme on the Book of Faces showing a picture of all the black, female officers graduating from West Point and crowing that it happened under Trump. As if he was responsible and had supported these fine women. Seriously?
Brachiator
@rikyrah:
Wow. I mean, really,!
Dopes. It’s fewer white people.
Gin & Tonic
@Jay: Her name is Alexandria.
Leto
@debbie: LOL! That was good! “We’ll always be ride or die, bitches!” Yes you will McTurtle, yes you will.
Baud
@Brachiator:
Heh.
Kathleen
@lamh36: My management mentor at Giant Telecom Corp told me that Self Awareness is most important trait a manager can have.
Steeplejack
@chris:
I don’t know the details, but those are cadet uniforms and cadet ranks, not regular Army. Different ranks for platoon leaders, etc., or whatever they call their organizational levels at West Point.
ETA: They all get commissioned as second lieutenants in the Army after graduation.
Baud
@Kathleen:
I think, therefore I delegate.
Mart
@Josie: Yes – Mannafort not Bannon should not be in solitary confinement, brain dead today.
Gin & Tonic
@Mart: What’s the alternative? Put him in gen pop?
Jay
“The Trump administration is suspending educational programs, legal aid and recreational programs for migrant children in its custody, saying an influx of children crossing the border without a parent or legal guardian was putting a “tremendous strain” on the resources of the agency tasked with housing them.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-migrant-chidlren-education-suspended-recreation-legal-1.5163752
Mike in NC
@Mart: Hey, Bannon behind bars sure works for me.
Jay
“The U.S. government said Wednesday it will reclassify some of the nation’s most dangerous radioactive waste to lower its threat level, outraging critics who say the move would make it cheaper and easier to walk away from cleaning up nuclear weapons production sites in Washington state, Idaho and South Carolina.
The U.S. Department of Energy said labelling some high-level waste as low level will save $40 billion US in cleanup costs across the nation’s entire nuclear weapons complex. The material that has languished for decades in the three states would be taken to low-level disposal facilities in Utah or Texas, the agency said.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nuclear-waste-reclassify-cleanup-1.5163992
Shana
@cope: I have bone spurs and short of surgery to shave the spurs off, they’re there until I die.
trollhattan
@rikyrah:
That could have been a Ramones song!
One, two, three, four….
Mike in NC
@Jay: I wonder if we’ll ever see the price tag for the rotten Trump family’s excellent European vacation. Like every other incriminating thing about the Trumps, it’ll disappear in a black hole.
J R in WV
OK… I just want to know when Senator T. Duckworth is going to let us know what she really thinks about President Bone Spurs>!! She should stop beating around the Bush and tell us how she feels, instead of keeping those feelings all inside like this.
;-)
More seriously, many good thoughts about Trump’s illegality as a young college age man in the comments. Trump avoided the draft with a poor excuse. When I got my draft notice, I enlisted in the USN, even though I spent my last year as a civilian opposing the Vietnam war.
I wasn’t a hero, I served my time on the Gulf coast, which meant 10 hour shifts in 100 degree weather. Not dodging bullets, just plain old hard work. Scariest thing I did was hoist torpedoes from a flat bed truck up over the ship and down into the torpedo shop and magazines full of those puppies, which was scary enough for most anyone.
Trump did not oppose the war at all, he just wasn’t going to do his part.
chris
@Steeplejack: Thanks, that explains it.
Steeplejack
@trollhattan:
Also a Law and Order episode.
FlipYrWhig
@Baud: They do it a lot. At one point Sherrod Brown was the establishment neoliberal because he sandbagged Paul Hackett.
Jay
@Mike in NC:
TrumpGolfCount will add it up.
Steeplejack
@Mike in NC:
It can’t be as much as the $1 billion that Michelle Obama’s trip to India cost!
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That’s certainly true about George. He serially turned down raises at AMC because he didn’t believe CEOs should make so much more than rank and file employees. He may or may not have walked out of the 1964 convention opposing the radical wingers.
Willard never bothered with such trivialities.
Jeffro
Now that Trumpov has committed to glorifying himself on the 4th at the Lincoln Memorial, I feel that it is my patriotic duty to encourage all DMV-area Americans to attend some other celebration, like the ones at Mount Vernon or in Fairfax city.
I might even wear my USS John McCain hat (and I didn’t even LIKE McCain)
chopper
@Mike in NC:
“can’t it be both?”
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
LMAO on many different levels.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
have you seen trump in a hat? I was just about to ask if anyone knew the story about the hat, then it occurred to me: He’s trying to look like Churchill? does he think the hat makes him look like Churchill?
chris
OT and a little under the radar. (Who can keep up?!!) Thread on gerrymandering and the census question. If Legum is right the RNC was paying the man who died after coming up with the census question. The horror just begins there.
Omnes Omnibus
@TenguPhule: No, she didn’t. If you believe that it is torture and that torture is wrong, then who is on the receiving end is immaterial.
TenguPhule
@Jeffro:
Am reminded that Trump literally wants to make the 4th of July “Donald Trump’s Empire Day” and he said as much months ago.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thank you, Omnes.
Barbara
@TomatoQueen: I have ancestors who emigrated to avoid being subject to universal peacetime conscription in Bismarck’s army. The concept of a standing army was unpopular, given the very real need for manual labor on farms and other traditional occupations. But moving your whole life thousands of miles away in order to avoid what you consider to be an unnecessary and unjust usurpation of your labor isn’t the same as staying put and just trying to avoid active service during wartime. Of course the children and grandchildren of these immigrants served in the U.S. military honorably during wartime and submitted to the draft as required. My family does not otherwise have a tradition of military service.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Omg, yes the person who has the drunk from Jackie Gleason has hit the nail on the head!
TenguPhule
@Omnes Omnibus:
She did if the intent was to actually try and change minds at this moment in time. Sympathetic stories are always more effective to grab the public opinion.
Using a White Republican who’s getting the closest thing to justice we’ve seen in years is trying to tap an empathy bank that has for many gone bankrupt.
Mart
@Gin & Tonic: I read it as making a point using a high profile Presidential campiagn manager that this is a disgusting practice that needs to end. The Geneva Convention addresses confinement, so we treat are enemies better than our citizens.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: Crazy Guggenheim!
TenguPhule
@Mart:
Using Manafort to advocate for an end to solitary confinement is like citing bacon as a reason to eliminate pork production.
prostratedragon
@Mike in NC: Looks like some hints are already dribbling out:
Trump’s team spent $1 million on four limos during a two day trip to Ireland
TenguPhule
@prostratedragon:
I assume there were Russian Hookers in those limos ready to piss on him for that kind of price.
mrmoshpotato
@Omnes Omnibus: 1-0 Miami after the top of the 1st, and Milwaukee has forfeited. ?
Mike in NC
@Steeplejack: Was that the figure Glenn Beck pulled out of his butt?
Fred Fnord
The site is borderline unusable on Safari mobile (HUGE headlines that take up more than half of the rather large screen, quotes with weird color issues), plus the hamburger menu contains nothing but ‘quick links’ which contains nothing, and requesting the desktop site gives you the exact same mobile site.
I think something accidentally got pushed to production before it was ready.
Mart
@TenguPhule: Estimates are between 80,000 to 100,000 prisoners in the USA are in solitary confinement. I don’t care do you.
prostratedragon
@TenguPhule: Link
Ohio Mom
@FlipYrWhig: Oh, Paul Hackett. I remember that sliver of time I thought he could become my next Congressional Representative. But it was not to be. This district is too gerrymandered.
I also have a vague memory of him doing something very ill-advised sometime after that — chase someone off his property with a gun? Too lazy to google.
On the whole, not a big loss he went on to other things.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
Amir Khalid
@TenguPhule:
Your sentiment is wrongheaded. Torture is wrong not because a particular victim doesn’t deserve it, but because it is in itself a cruel and pointless thing to do.
J R in WV
@Jay:
Or, and this is way out there, I know, but they could just send these kids out into the nation into the loving homes of people willing to care for them and help them in their new homes.
…am I just crazy for thinking there’s more than one way to save money here??
Steeplejack
@Mike in NC:
I read it at EagleFreedomLibertyWatch.com, so it must be true.
TenguPhule
@Amir Khalid:
That’s not what I’m saying. I agree that Torture is wrong, period. What I’m saying is that trying to convince the general public that solitary confinement is a bad thing by using Manafort as an example of such is counterproductive. Not only is his confinement actually necessary due to Rikers being Russia central for prisons, but he’s a White Republican in a time when White Republicans already keep getting treated better then anyone else in the criminal justice system.
chris
SPW townhall with Chris Hayes on MSNBC right now.
TenguPhule
@J R in WV:
You’re not. Unfortunately that’s not the only way to cut costs for imprisoning detainees. And their ideal solution is not only cheaper, its final.
Amir Khalid
@J R in WV:
Do you realise you’re suggesting that Trump’s people show kindness and good sense? What could you possibly be thinking?
Ohio Mom
@Fred Fnord: i am on an iPhone using safari and everything looks normal to me. And I haven’t had a pop-up “You’ve won!” or flash of naughty bits in days.
That’s not to say you aren’t having problems with the site, it’s to say that whatever is kablooey appears to be constantly shifting. Everybody gets a turn it seems. Sorry it’s yours today.
Eric S.
@FelonyGovt: Not that I was contemplating a vote for Biden but this is sad and incredibly disappointing.
Omnes Omnibus
@TenguPhule: Bad behavior shouldn’t be called out if bad people are on the receiving end?
TenguPhule
@Omnes Omnibus:
Is the intent of the message to grandstand on pure moral principle or actually move public opinion against the act in question?
Amir Khalid
@TenguPhule:
If I understand you right, you’re saying that
1) solitary is needed at Riker’s because it’s the only way to punish someone who’s already a prisoner there; and
2) it is necessary to make an example of Steve Bannon* to the other white Republicans.
1) is an example of cruelty, 2) of pointlessness.
*He, not Manafort, is the one AOC mentioned.
Jay
@J R in WV:
“Note that “unaccompanied minors” is now a term of art. It no longer means “minors who come to the border unaccompanied,” but rather “children who have been ripped from the arms of their parents and put into concentration camps built for that purpose.”
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/06/the-trump-concentration-camps
TenguPhule
@Amir Khalid: No you’re not understanding me.
1. Solitary Confinement for Manafort is for his own protection as there are enough Russian mobsters at Rikers that he will probably be brutally murdered within hours of being put into the general population.
2. Trying to convince other people that Solitary Confinement is a bad thing using a formerly rich white Republican male who sold out his own country is a good moral stance, but its counterproductive if you’re actually trying to convince the American public to abolish the practice. .
*Manafort is the one actually convicted and imprisoned
Jay
Conversation
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
Paul Manafort is being sent to solitary confinement in my district – Rikers Island.
A prison sentence is not a license for gov torture and human rights violations. That‘s what solitary confinement is.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
·
9h
Replying to
@AOC
Yes – released from solitary.
NYT used the term solitary confinement, & that’s what I am commenting on.
“Protective custody” IS a separate practice, but does not necessarily exclude solitary. If he is in fact not being held in solitary, great. Release everyone else from it too.
Manafort should be released, along with all people being held in solitary.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
·
7h
Sorry, but if people aren’t willing to apply principles evenly, no matter the person, then they aren’t fighting for criminal justice reform.
People acting as though this is summer camp. It’s Rikers, widely known for abuse. #AbolishSolitary
(& no, ofc he shouldn’t be pardoned)
#HALTsolitary
@NYCAIC
·
May 21
We agree. More than 30% of prison suicides in New York take place in solitary confinement. Many are locked in isolation for years, some even decades — disproportionately Black & Latinx people. It’s time we end this torture in prisons & jails & “detention centers” everywhere.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AOC?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement to provide Protective Custody.
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement to house the Mentally Ill.
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement for punishment ranging from those who know their rights, to violent offenders who have assaulted others in the jail.
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement to hold women who are pregnant and often leaves them there alone to give birth.
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement to kill problematic prisoners via abuse and neglect.
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement to deny prisoners access to their lawyers.
Rikers uses Solitary Confinement as a perk to allow Guards to sexually abuse and rape prisoners.
Amongst other things.
Saddam would be proud.
Nelle
My friend’s son is a combat medic stationed in Syria. Since February, he is no longer receiving his combat pay. They think it is going to the wall. Wife and three kids have moved in with Grandma. Meanwhile, one million for two day use of limos to tool around Ireland.
NotMax
FYI, from March.
Jay
“10] RIKERS ISLAND (NEW YORK CITY, NEW YORK)
Number of inmates: ~10,000 (capacity ~15,000)
Who’s in charge: Evelyn A. Mirabal, chief; Dora Schriro, commissioner, of the New York City Department of Corrections
The basics: When it comes to ignominies, New York City’s island jail complex has it all: inmate violence, staff brutality, rape, abuse of adolescents and the mentally ill, and one of the nation’s highest rates of solitary confinement. Rikers, which hosts 10 separate jails, has been the target of dozens of lawsuits and numerous exposés. Yet the East River island remains a dismal and dangerous place for the 12,000 or more men, women, and children held there on any given day — mostly pretrial defendants who can’t make bail and nonviolent offenders with sentences too short to ship them upstate.
The backlash: In 2008, 18-year-old Christopher Robinson, who had violated his probation for a juvenile robbery offense, was beaten and stomped to death in his cell in Rikers youth unit. An investigation revealed that the killers, two fellow prisoners, were part of what was known as “the program,” described by the Bronx DA as a “secret society run by correctional officers at Rikers Island to extort and beat other inmates,” supposedly in the name of maintaining order. Two of the facility’s guards pleaded guilty to assault and to charges related to running the extortion program, although the DA presented no evidence connecting them to Robinson’s death.
A 2012 lawsuit by the Legal Aid Society also documents a “deeply entrenched” pattern of violence by the guards, who “use unlawful, excessive force with impunity” and often send prisoners to the hospital, costing the city millions in legal settlements. Despite the alleged complicity of staff in the rampant violence, the Department of Corrections’ response has been to build more solitary cells at Rikers — nearly 1,000 in all, with special isolation units for adolescents and for people with mental illness”
https://www.typeinvestigations.org/investigation/2013/05/01/10-worst-prisons-america/
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Couldn’t remember that to save my life. Frank Fontaine was all I could dredge up.
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
The Crazy Guggenheim character wasn’t a lush. That was Reginald van Gleason.
glory b
@Jay: Okay, but I understand that his attorneys requested this.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: Riker’s Island is primarily designed for detention, not imprisonment – holding people before/during their trial. If they are convicted, they are almost invariably sent to prisons elsewhere; only if they are sentenced to a term of less than one year could they be imprisoned there.
Since it is primarily a house of detention, “punishment” is not its primary reason for existence – making sure defendants appear at trial is. Since Manafort is obviously a significant flight risk, he’s need to be detained. Since he is obviously a ripe target for extra-judicial means of dispute resolution, he needs to be held in protective custody if the State wants him to show up for trial alive. Protective custody at that facility may require him to be held in a cell by himself.
Wapiti
@Nelle: If Syria is designated as a combat zone, then the pay should keep coming.
Your friend and his son’s wife both should be asking their Congressional Rep what’s going on. This is the kind of thing that constituent services are for.
Dan B
@Jay: This may have the biggest impact at Hanford nuclear reservation, the most radioactively contaminated location in the country. The DOE has been trying to cut costs for years. Over 100 aging tanks, many leaking and many with explosive hydrogen gas, contain liquids which would be declassified. The facility which would treat the waste at Hanford is expected to cost more than $320 BILLION.
Dan B
@Jay: But it is simmer so it will be even more like “summer camp”. The children will have such fun entertaining each other! //
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jesus. Meanwhile…
lumpkin
@Baud:
And this isn’t the real reason either. I don’t know who he thinks he’s fooling.
Ruckus
@chris:
I believe that people in the academies earn what amounts to honorary ranks while attending. Say the person who is head of the class, or a squad leader. Even in navy boot camp one could get different duty assignments that had some specific differences. It sounds silly today be I was assigned to be the laundry officer. I kept the paperwork for the laundry and marched sailors over to the laundry facility and back. I never had to carry the laundry, which was a very large net bag that fit in very large washers/dryers, but someone had to take it there and return it. For doing that I didn’t have to stand watch. It’s all very military and gives order and structure so that people could learn to live in close and crowed situations and get along with each other and how to follow orders from someone assigned to give them. Because really a lot of the structure is no more involved than that. Once I made E5 I was in charge of our work crew and all of our equipment responsibilities. All of the ships inside communications gear, all of the navigation gear. all of the electric/electronic gear that steered the ship, told the engine room how fast to go. 22 yrs old and in charge of that for a multi million dollar ship and most work sections weren’t much different than that. A carrier, sub or bigger ship would have higher ranking enlisted in charge of the same equipment. Some things like the boilers would have at least one E6 and possibly an E7. But our ship was about 50 men short of fully staffed. Not unusual during Vietnam or probably today.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax:
Oh, forgive me for slandering the Gleason canon!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: I looked up Crazy Guggenheim on wiki because I couldn’t remember the real name, and apparently Fontaine played a lot of variants on that character on the Jack Benny Show, Red Skelton, etc, and sometimes he did play it as a drunk
and weren’t all of Gleason’s characters drunks, because Gleason?
J R in WV
@Ruckus:
Isn’t that why the 7th fleet has had a couple of dozen sailors killed in accidents? Short crew, people working 18-20 hours a day? Unqualified officer on the bridge in charge of navigating the DDGs through crowded commerical shipping lanes? Captains injured and trapped in their cabin? Crew drowned as their berthing compartments flooded after collisions?
Then they put the officers up for criminal courts-martial — in my book the admiral running the 7th fleet without sufficient crew is literally responsible for these deaths!! If you can’t crew all the DDGs, then keep one in port with a skeleton crew!!!
But no! Send short crewed ships into dangerous (not really, commercial ships do it al the time!) waters and then blame the senior officers when shit happens!!!
Despicable on the part of the politicians, despicable on the part of the Chief of Naval Operations, despicable on the part of the admiral in charge of the 7th fleet!!! And those are the people who should be accused of failure to perform their duty in a court martial!!! CNO and his minions.
John Revolta
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ralph Kramden, Gleason’s best known character,
couldn’t drink at all. According to his wife Alice, “He gets tipsy reading the label”.
He had several other characters that were some caliber of weird but weren’t drunks.
Tehanu
@Ohio Mom: There’s a difference between leaving the country — permanently — to avoid being drafted and cheating the draft by taking advantage of medical exemptions for conditions you don’t actually have. My grandfather fled Czarist Russia to avoid being drafted in the 1890’s — and he was Jewish, while other Jews were being slaughtered by Cossacks with the silent support of the Russian government. I think he was justified. But he didn’t bribe a doctor to lie about his nonexistent bone spurs so he could weasel out.
Jay
@J R in WV:
It wasn’t the Admiral of the 7th Fleets “fault” in many regards.
The Pentagon kept ordering a tempo of operations that the Fleet could sustain, Corporations tried to replace men with electronics and machinery that didn’t work, the Navy skimped on manpower, maintenece, parts and training, ( CD ROM’s to watch instead of actual training), because they were way over budget on new ships that don’t work.
If memory serves me right, the 7th Fleet is on it’s 4th Admiral in 5 years.
( Fat Lenard, Sub collision with Politico’s at the helm, the two DDG collisions).
plato
Wish there were many Tammy’s in the dems party.
trnc
@ruemara:
The original story to which she was responding had “solitary confinement” in the headline, then they corrected it to say “protective custody,” so then she acknowledged the usefulness of that and reiterated that non-protective solitary confinement is tantamount to torture. The NBC wrote a story with a headline that implied that she doesn’t know the difference, but then acknowledged several paragraphs in that she had already corrected her statement.
Voila! Ratfuck accomplished. If you fell for it and thinks she should shut up, imagine what people think who only hear the headlines.
Jackie
@Dan B: I live in the Tri-Cities. This “might” cause my very Red county to call our rep congress critters. Yeah, who am I kidding???♀️
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
A story from long ago. The DDG I was stationed on out of Charleston was of course in a destroyer flotilla. The flotilla commander was to say the least a complete fucking horse’s ass. He was up for promotion and the people in the odd shaped building weren’t giving him one so they reassigned him as captain to a helicopter landing ship. Can you see where this is going? Yes I ended up on that ship for about a month. And yes he was a complete fucking horse’s ass. Pulled the gangplank up every morning at 8 while in the yard, if you weren’t on board, 3 days bread and water in the brig. And of course your workmates had to stay and stand guard so that made you very popular. There were 4 of us in our workgroup. Said complete fucking horse’s ass retired at the end of his current tour but not of course till he got to fuck with an entire crew because they wouldn’t just fire his ass.
The fiefdoms of captains, the rank incompetence of some, the brown nosing, it was just disgusting. The best captain I ever had was on the DDG though. I had to go to his cabin in his first week because he wanted his phone moved. Now of course it has to be welded to the wall otherwise it’s a weapon in a heavy sea so it’s a lot more involved than picking it up and moving to the other side of the desk. There were 3 officers between the captain and me so when I showed up about 10 minutes after he’d mentioned it to the XO, he was stunned. I told him what I was told, and he just shook his head and said “Assholes.” Every step of the way the question became an order and the priority escalated beyond all reason. What I was told was that I had to get my motherfucking ass up to the captain before my motherfucking ass was handed to me. He asked if it was possible when everything necessary had been done. So every time I saw him thereafter he’d call me by name and ask how’s it going. “Great capt.” would be my answer and that always pissed off the officers walking with him, but neither he nor I gave a damn. It was almost fun. Almost.
Jay
@trnc:
?????????
Michael J Allen
@cope: Not a doctor, but I believe that if you have a bone spur anywhere at 20 it is because of a mechanical problem and only going to get worse, and not going to spontaneously disappear. Removal is by surgery, plus maybe other surgery or PT to address the cause particularly if it comes back. No evidence of any of that in this case.
In case you don’t know the doctor that made the claim rented his office from Trump and stayed there for years with no increase in rent. What is not mentioned is that (just guessing) the doctor’s claim would have to be approved by probably the local draft board. No doubt that draft board was composed of the Queens version of good ole boys at least some of who were probably Fred’s buddies.
Michael J Allen
@zhena gogolia: Nope. Just its usual no-graphics 1998 look.
smedley the uncertain
@ruemara: Thread’s probably dead, But Right On! Several of our young new arrivals, the future of good govt., are shooting from the lip and not thinking through how they express them selves.
Their ideas are good, but how they express themselves and present themselves will determine how they carry the day.
john fremont
@TomatoQueen: Mohammed Ali was not a fan of the Vietnam war yet he accepted his punishment when he refused his draft order.