From the Guardian liveblog:
Here’s Vivian Ho in Oakland on how Harris thrives on being “the adult in the room” in debates, which seems to be her MO so far tonight
Senator Kamala Harris’s supporters have been waiting for her to take the stage in the debates since she announced her candidacy.
She may have stalled in the polls, consistently lagging behind former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders, but anyone who has followed her career knows that she shines brightest when the pressure’s on and she can step into the role of the only adult in room.
After all, her Senate judiciary committee hearings have become almost a spectator sport. Video footage of her flustering attorney general William Barr with a career prosecutor’s mastery has notched millions of views. Her questioning of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh led to memes of her skeptical face circulating around social media.
No doubt, voters tonight are now picturing the kind of damage she could do on a debate stage with President Trump.
FelonyGovt
She’s been my candidate all along, and she is killing it tonight. What a contrast to these hectoring old men.
dmsilev
“Pass the torch”. The drinking game we didn’t know we needed.
Raven Onthill
Climate change. Running the numbers, no one is running the numbers. Hickenlooper, as usual clueless. Sanders, as usual, is right, and as usual no-one will listen. Williamson is clueless as usual and sounds like a pious fraud.
chris
@Raven Onthill:
Sounds like? Is!
A Ghost To Most
@Raven Onthill:
Sanders is Grandpa Simpson, yelling at clouds and waving his onion around.
mad citizen
Looked up Hickenlooper’s scientist claim. He was a friggin geologist. Whatever.
Glad Bernie pushed back on Chuck’s stupid question.
Soprano2
OH Jesus Bernie!
Raven Onthill
Asked for a signature issue. All these different answers. Harris: middle class tax cut. Sigh. Why does anyone trust her?
dmsilev
Williamson panders to the key Kiwi demographic.
Leto
Again, how Marianne managed to grift enough to make it this far… thanks, Trumpov/Republicans. So embarrassing.
Mike in NC
The thing is, man-baby Trump doesn’t like to deal with actual adults.
A Ghost To Most
@mad citizen:
That was before he became a merchant of death (brewpub owner).
NotMax
Williamson = Lady Blah Blah.
plato
@Raven Onthill:
Williamsonbs is clueless as usual and sounds like a pious fraud.lamh36
Kamala was laying in the cut for that Biden moment…
Peep the tweet pic her campaign tweeted. She was mighty quiet when the initial segregationist bits came up…but showing the advantage of waiting and being prepared for her moment…then…BAZINGA!
yet another jeff
“What is the first thing you’ll do as President?”
“Defeat Trump!”
B.B.A.
Not watching, but… uh, I don’t have a “but.”
NotMax
@lamh36
bused, not bussed
Unless she was kissed an awful lot.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax:
Oh, come on, I’m a pedant but that’s ridiculous!
zhena gogolia
Well, you should look where the fire exits are.
Sanders again, oh stop!
FelonyGovt
Bernie explaining why he doesn’t have an awful record on guns.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
You still don’t understand the racial dynamics of America, do you?
Take a moment to really think about why a Black woman would publicly declare herself in favor of middle-class tax cuts. Come back when you’ve figured it out.
Eljai
At least Rachel knows how to ask a gun question without using Republican talking points. Are you paying attention, Chuck?
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
“it was a quote”
Zing
The Dangerman
Thursday Zen; Simba (that’s the eaglet) chillin’ in the SoCal sun (presently zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz). Still hasn’t flown.
Miss Bianca
Reposting from downstairs thread:
Love this bit from the Guardian live-blog, see if you can spot the shade in an unaccustomed spot:
Chuck Todd: Obama wanted to address healthcare and climate change. Ultimately he could only do one. You might only get one shot, what’s your number one issue?
Swalwell: ending gun violence
Bennet: climate change
Gillibrand: passing a family bill of rights that includes pre-K
Harris: working families tax cut, Daca, guns
Sanders: let me do my stump speech, but also, a political revolution
Biden: you’re underestimating what Barack Obama did. He was strong on climate change. But the first thing I’d make sure we do is defeat Trump
Buttigieg: fix our broken political system
Yang: Universal Basic Income, which would help with climate change
Hickenlooper: collaborative approach on climate change
Williamson: call the prime minister of New Zealand and ask for her advice on climate
plato
48 point screaming ‘breaking’ headline at fucking bbc.
“Biden criticized over race at democratic debate”.
Emerald
Bernie: that’s a mischaracterization of what I said.
Rachel: it’s a direct quote.
A Ghost To Most
@lamh36:
I just read the exchange Harris v Biden. That’s gonna leave a scar.
zhena gogolia
OMG, Joe said our enemy is the gun manufacturers, “not the NRA”!!!! He was doing okay until that, whiskey tango foxtrot?
zhena gogolia
Good on Bennet.
Ella in New Mexico
Tonight it’s totally Kamala. She has kicked ass every single step of the way. “I’m the little girl who was bused and it shouldn’t be a states rights issue, Joe” was powerful and spot on.
2nd goes to Pete who is consistently genuine and well prepared and sincere. And KirstenG who is also incredibly formidable.
3rd place: MAYBE Michael Bennet.
I love Joe Biden, but it’s time for him to retire and sip some ice cold brews in his backyard with his best friends and watch his beautiful grandkids running around in the sprinkler. Until he needs to campaign for our nominee next year.
I really don’t think I need to hear from anyone else in the future. So now I’m begging my husband to bail and watch Big Little Lies with me ;-)
Raven Onthill
@Mnemosyne: Same reason Trump did, maybe?
This is her signature issue?
mad citizen
@Raven Onthill: Why so anti-Kamala? Are you trolling us tonight?
lamh36
Kamala Harris has a plan if the Dems don’t win back the Senate. She’ll likely keep a Dem House as Prez…but she knows that the Senate is STILL a hard sellf or some.
her use of Exec actions shows an awareness of the struggle that could come for control of the Senate
#DemDebate2
FelonyGovt
Pete “we have no idea which of our allies Trump will have pissed off between now and 1/21”
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill: @Mnemosyne: Mnem, I’m very curious to hear your take on this. Seriously. I have one myself, but …. well, I’m not sure I care to share, b/c it could be very, very wrong.
dmsilev
@mad citizen: She’s a threat to The Chosen One.
zhena gogolia
Good answer from Swalwell. “Breaking up with Russia and making up with NATO.” Yeah, it’s canned, but I like it.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: Yeah, that was just so stupid. NRA came out against any gun manufacturer trying to put bio-ID guns onto the market.
FelonyGovt
You haven’t led shit, Bernie.
NotMax
Swalwell: “My first act as foreign policy? Announce we’re breakin’ up with Russia and makin’ up with NATO.”
The man understands television.
zhena gogolia
Oh, he helped lead the opposition to the Iraq war? I somehow missed that.
Mai Naem mobile
I hope Kamalas numbers finally go up. She won hands down.
Ohio Mom
“Breaking up with Russia and making up with NATO.”
Okay, Salwell earned his place tonight. He can bow out of running on this high point.
mad citizen
@Ella in New Mexico: Agree with this ranking generally. I’m in for Kamala, but like Gillibrand lately too. Taking Fox to task, and tonight she had to be aggressive to get into the top tier. I get the impression that she just doesn’t give a F as far as saying what needs to be said.
zhena gogolia
I’m going to miss all the after party. Going out of town for the weekend. This time I’m really going.
Old Dan and Little Ann
@dmsilev: That almost made me spit out my Laphroiag.
dmsilev
Um, what was that?
zhena gogolia
Williamson trying out for “Sabrina the Teenage Witch.”
Ivan X
I am drunk and have been texting with my since forever SO:
Biden is 100
It’s boring
I wish Harris and Gillibrand would make out just to keep it interesting. I’m a really progressive liberal
Buttegieg is whatever
Biden is ancient
Harris is pressing/trying too hard. I like her tho
Gillibrand is smart but when she’s like “I’m gonna take on wall st corruption” it’s like ?
Marianne Willamson has blown her shot and I like her even less now
Biden has gone for blowhard mode
Bernie is oddly subdued, which makes him unexpectedly not loathesome
Some of these dudes in suits I’ve never even heard of! and they’re not making me wish I did. This was their opportunity
I seriously think there needs to be a 70 cutoff though that would disqualify Warren so ok 72
I kind of like Bernie’s accent: “I helped lead the effit” “let me be very cleah” it’s too bad he has to be such a gadfly turd
I like the way tech bro candidate Yang wears tech bro uniform of no tie. makes him stand out
Another Scott
@mad citizen: For someone who was known for dropping F-bombs, etc., she pulled her punches tonight. (She said “heck” at one point, rather than Hell.)
Gillibrand seemed pretty good to me, but I wonder if she’s staking out things that are far too difficult now (e.g. public financing of elections – even though I would love to see it and think she’s right). The next President and Congress will be overwhelmed with things, even without trying to build support for public financing…
Harris and Warren have done well.
But it’s still early.
Here’s hoping the questions are better in the next debates.
Cheers,
Scott.
MisterForkbeard
@mad citizen: Raven’s been doing this all night. And being super maudlin about how everyone is mistreating Bernie and Bernie is prescient and prophetic but no one will listen.
And then swears he’s not supporting Bernie but Warren. Troll might not be true, but seems very Bro-ish.
Juju
Holy cow!! Marianne Williamson is high on her own gas.
Raven Onthill
@mad citizen: Conservatism and an authoritarian streak. It’s not so much that I’m anti-Harris. It’s more that I think that conservatism is out of answers. There are some specific things she’s done that I don’t like at all, but these flow from conservatism and authoritarianism. Maybe we do need strong leadership, but I question how she has used her strength in the past.
She was obviously a good prosecutor. I think she’s an excellent public speaker and is likely to win on the strength of that, regardless of her conservatism.
Still better than Trump, though.
dmsilev
@Old Dan and Little Ann: After due consideration, there are enough candidates running to do an Olympic Torch Relay, so maybe that slogan is ok after all.
Inventor
Williamson is a walking stereotype.
Soprano2
Wow, Williamson is…..interesting.
Chetan Murthy
@mad citizen: [IDGAF about Frankenstans, so] there’s still a warm place in my political calculus for Sen. Gillibrand, for her solid when it came to sexual harrassment, and for standing up first regarding Franken. She seems to be not measuring up to Sens. Warren & Harris, but notwithstanding, she’s stalwart and did the right thing when it mattered and lots of people were pretty pissed-off at her.
P.S. And if Al was so lily-white, he coulda fucking asked for an investigation. He didn’t. So STFU, Frankenstans. Nobody said your favorite senator gets to have lunch every day with people who think he’s a fucking molester. They have the right to tell him to go sit by himself. And if he decides that he’d rather quit than be ostracized, that’s *jumping*, not *being pushed*.
patrick II
Not that I am a fan , but have they asked Mr. Wong a single question tonight?
dmsilev
@patrick II: Yes. He was asked about his Universal Basic Income plan at the beginning of the debate. I think there were a couple of other questions as well.
Mary G
Laid down for a few minutes and slept thru most of it. I mostly read news and I’d never heard his voice, which is great. I can’t remember exactly what he said, though.
Glad to hear Kamala’s kicking ass and taking names. Gillibrand isn’t wowing me.
So happy to see diversity in the lineup.
yet another jeff
Mr President…if that IS your real name…I’m bringing love!
Leto
@Ella in New Mexico: Good ranking. Harris has been very clear and on point tonight. Hope she raises in the polls. She should.
FelonyGovt
Wall Street! DRINK!
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
You really have no idea how revealing this response is, do you?
@Chetan Murthy:
I think it’s because Harris knows she has to reassure paranoid whites like Raven Onthill that she’s not planning to take all of their worldly possessions and hand them over to the Black and Brown hordes.
And his response to me shows that he is, in fact, convinced that’s going to happen if Harris is elected, just like white supremacist Trump claimed he would provide a middle-class tax cut and then only cut taxes for rich (primarily) white people.
Ella in New Mexico
@Ivan X:
I forgive you for this sexist and disgusting comment until I have further evidence you are anything other than a drunk guy who made a really bad judgement call.
debbie
@lamh36:
My FB feed is on fire after that remark. Hot damn!
NotMax
Wilmer really should avoid using the word fossil. Just sayin’.
Biden’s closing statement straight out the 1980s.
A Ghost To Most
@Chetan Murthy: Franken got jobbed. You and KG can both go fuck yourselves.
plato
So who gets to go to round 2? Who and how it’s decided?
lamh36
Ooof…this doesn’t surprise me though.
It’s exactly how he got into the mess over the segregationist bullshit
SMH
zhena gogolia
Okay, if the Franken fight is starting up again it’s time for beddy-bye. Thanks everyone! It was fun!
Glad I put my Kamala Joyful Warrior sticker on my car already!
Ella in New Mexico
@Eljai:
No. He’s a bit distracted by worries about whether his receding hairline is being well concealed with his buzz cut and gel application, if everyone notices how cut he is since he went Keto and intrusive thoughts about his threats to MSNBC that he get equal time with Rachel cuz he’s big time, dammit.
zhena gogolia
@lamh36:
He should have rested on his f-ing laurels.
mad citizen
Cellphone down to 3%. Contribution solicited by and made to Kamala. Time for bed.
NotMax
That Brian Williams does not have chronic acute laryngitis is further proof there is no God.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
That’s why I haven’t been fretting over Biden. He’s never done well in presidential primaries because he’s got foot in mouth disease.
He was a great hype man for Obama, but he’s not going to make it through the primary. Third time is not the charm.
Kent
MSNBC going STRAIGHT to Harris’ disenbowlment of Biden on busing. They are really pumping Harris.
debbie
@lamh36:
That second tweet is uncomfortably close to remarks said about Trump in 2016.
Another Scott
@plato: TheHill:
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
NotMax
Everyone down on the floor mingling with the crowd except Biden, who is bending down from the stage.
Chetan Murthy
@Mnemosyne: @Raven Onthill: Oof. So with some trepidation, here’s my answer to the question Mnem asked you:
Obama and Harris both come from a world where two things are true:
(1) lots of people of color are conservative people. They’re [WE’RE] family-values-oriented people, and they believe in hard work and good behaviour. This is true across all the various ethnicities.
(2) Each person of color in a high and visible position has to think about what white people will think of them, and how that will affect what white people think of the next person of color who vies for that position. It colors everything they do.[A]
So if Barack Obama had been “the angry black man” President, yeah, that would have been *great*. That was *never* going to happen, regardless of how angry he might have been. And so, even if Sen. Harris were a bra-burning Communist with all Che Guevara’s greatest hits on her iPod, she would STILL advocate for middle-of-the-road policies.
FORTUNATELY, those middle-of-the-road policies are deemed SOSHULIST by GrOPers. So she can still be a stalwart Dem, while advocating for things like a “middle class tax cut”. And fortunately given America’s racial composition, (real) middle-of-the-road means inclusive and allied with diversity in all its forms.
OK. So that’s my take on the racial dynamics of my country. Maybe I’m wrong.
[A] There will come a day, when a highly-visible person of color can be a complete fuck-up (like Dubya) and be neither of disrepute to his family, nor to his ethnicity. That day isn’t not in the foreseeable future. Fact, regardless of how much I might not like it.
mrmoshpotato
I see not watching the Goat Rodeo was a good call.
Oh, and Wilmer’s not a Democrat and should’ve fucked off to the forest and taken up knitting back in May 2016.
Chetan Murthy
@Mnemosyne: Well-put, Mnem. Well-put.
Bobby Thomson
@A Ghost To Most: No, you fuck off, you groper apologist.
Nicole
With both of the first debates in the books, I’m letting myself daydream that it will come down to Warren v. Harris, which I would be fine with as my own slogan is, 2020: No Old White Guys.
Quinerly
@Kent: ?
John Revolta
What do you wanna bet the MSM headline is “Prosecutor Harris is mean to Uncle Joe”
schrodingers_cat
For me Kamala was #1 and I also liked Bennet. Bernie actually combed his hair and ironed his clothes. Biden was slurring his words. He needs to retire. I liked Pete B’s answer calling on the hypocrisy of the party of family values.
Raven Onthill
@Mnemosyne: isn’t that what Trump did? Reassure paranoid whites?
Harris participated in, and still defends, the disastrous resolution of the mortgage crisis, which took the worldly possessions of many black people. People of color were hammered hard in the mortgage crisis, much more than white people.
That said, who knows how she will do as President? And regardless of my objections to her, she would still be about a million times better than Trump or any Republican.
NotMax
Wonder if Biden was sternly instructed to not mingle and allow people to take selfies because it might involve touching women?
japa21
Between the last two nights, most candidates provided a respectable reason to vote for them, some several reasons. The ones who didn’t were de Blasio, Williamson and most particularly Wilmer.
Mnemosyne
@Chetan Murthy:
Note that he refers to Harris as an “authoritarian.” You know, like Mugabe. But he’s not racist! He just hates authoritarians!
Nicole
Also, remember when I said, some weeks back, that Biden isn’t good in debates? Wasn’t good in 1988, wasn’t good in 2008, no reason to think he’d have learned anything by now, since he made it pretty clear tonight he doesn’t think he has ever been wrong about anything.
Gin & Tonic
@Nicole:
As an OWG myself, I’m perfectly in tune with this slogan.
SiubhanDuinne
I love Kamala! Breakout star!
Kamala!
Elizabeth!
Kalizabeth!
MisterForkbeard
@Mnemosyne: You notice now how he’s giving her personal responsibility for the mortgage crisis legal results, despite getting a much better result than pretty much any other AG?
There must be something I’m missing here, SOME reason he keeps going after her. I cant imagine why that is.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
But what about Baud?
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: Mugabe? Really? Why not “like Orban”?
I don’t really know this particular Raven, but this shot was wild, IMO.
Fair Economist
@Kent:
I’d never expect any MSM to pump her, ever. That disembowelment must have great scores with the focus groups.
Ivan X
@Ella in New Mexico: What was the judgment call? Saying the quiet parts out loud? Or to think them? I can’t help the latter, but I’ll consider the former as something to improve. Or was it something else I’m unaware of?
I would rather see either of them as President than anyone else on stage tonight. That doesn’t make me incapable of sexist, objectifying thoughts, however.
Thank you for your forgiveness/benefit of the doubt.
Gin & Tonic
@SiubhanDuinne: If I’m not mistaken, Baud’s a YWG.
And If I am mistaken, please let me hang on to my illusion for a bit.
cokane
@Nicole: Biden was excellent in the VP debates in 2008 and 2012. Obviously his opponents there were weak, but he was hugely praised by pundits and polling was extremely favorable. Also he was fine enough in the 2008 nomination debates, imo, he basically won the VP slot in large part to his “noun, verb, 9/11” zinger
Chetan Murthy
@Mnemosyne: I would cut Raven at least a little slack. He’s a decent person, and elsewhere (e.g. Crooked Timber) he’s demonstrated that decency. Doesn’t mean he’s right about anything he wrote. But hey, we’re all of us learning …..
That said, the idea that Harris is an *authoritarian*? Heh. yeahrightsurefinebye.
divF
@SiubhanDuinne:
A vision that will have every Trumpian male in America crossing his legs.
Kent
@NotMax:
OMG. MSNBC actually alluded to this as why he is up on the stage and not down in the crowd. Damnnn
Gvg
@Chetan Murthy: he did ask for an investigation. Things climaxed too fast, it didn’t get done before.
I have come to think it worked out for the best that he left, but also think we shouldn’t overstate. I think there was something more that was going to come out, and that there were some lies. In other words it was complicated and we couldn’t win the media. Gillibrand is paying a price. Also….I think the democratic voters are going to be kind of risk adverse this cycle.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
It would be great if you would stop lying about Harris and the mortgage crisis, but I’m assuming you never will. She’s just too threatening to you.
Reality — she got the largest settlement of any state, and you can only fucking whine about what you think she “should” have done in addition to getting the largest settlement for the people of California, because no action taken by a Black woman will ever be enough for you.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Kamala-Harris-mortgage-meltdown-record-under-13730708.php
NotMax
@japa21
And Delaney. And Yang. And Gabbard. And Hickenlooper. And Ryan.
Another Scott
@Raven Onthill: SFChronicle:
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
(“Who thinks relitigating judgement calls like these is a distraction – nobody invested is going to change their minds and there’s no sufficient ‘proof’ either way.”)
SiubhanDuinne
@Mnemosyne:
Ooh, burn.
lamh36
smh…I can’t believe Biden went with a damn state rights defense!
come da fuq on…are Black folk so enamored w/Joe that we can’t see that as a problem
SMH
I loved Joe as VP…but come da fuq on…if ANYONE else on the other side had mad the same defense!
#DemDebate2
plato
@Another Scott: Thanks. That’s gonna thin the herd quite considerably.
mrmoshpotato
@SiubhanDuinne: Why not Zoidberg?
Kent
Andrea Mitchell actually asks Sanders if he thinks that Harris should be the frontrunner now after her disembowlment of Biden….burn
Mary G
Kamala had the biggest increase in Google searches tonight and hopefully can get up higher in the polls going on.
MisterForkbeard
@Chetan Murthy: Fair enough. I think his comments tonight have been stupid, but I’m perhaps going too far.
Sorry, Raven.
Mnemosyne
@Chetan Murthy:
What’s truly hilarious is that he’s parroting pretty much every sexist trope about women candidates and he seems to have absolutely no clue that he’s doing it. It’s like talking to a 12-year-old who just discovered Objectivism because he listened to a lot of Rush albums.
Reality check:
https://leanin.org/data-about-gender-bias-in-elections
Old Dan and Little Ann
The Daily Show just did an ending bit that said Kamala rattled Biden on race so much that he cut himself off. Accompying video thereafter.
Kent
Biden saying busing should only address deJure segregation? As in only segregation in the Jim Crow south. Digging himself a bigger and bigger hole.
Bet TaNehisi Coats would have something to say about that.
Another Scott
@lamh36: It was incredibly tone-deaf, wasn’t it?
Of all the people up there, Biden knows exactly what he’s going to be asked on just about any topic area. And he still mangled answers, or had some canned response straight out of the 1970s. It wasn’t good.
Cheers,
Scott.
Amir Khalid
@Chetan Murthy:
As I recall Franken did request an investigation, but resigned before it got underway. Pity: I think that if he did anything wrong it should hae been documented.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
There’s a reason why people compared Obama to Mugabe and not to Orban, and it ain’t because Obama bore any resemblance to either of them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kent: They aren’t pumping Harris. It was the TV moment of the night.
japa21
@NotMax: Actually they have a reason that made some sense. Not enough to put themself ahead
of others. The ones I mentioned provides no redeeming qualities.
chris
Google search before and after the debate. Kamala!
@Mary G:
Another Scott
@Amir Khalid: Ethics investigations can take years under the existing system. It wasn’t tenable. He had to go.
Cheers,
Scott.
(“Who was a big Franken supporter.”)
B.B.A.
A few months ago I called that Harris would win the nomination. Judging from the reactions (I haven’t watched debates in years, it gives me hives) I think I predicted correctly.
rikyrah
@Chetan Murthy:
Yep…you nailed it
West of the Rockies
So word on the street is Warren won last night and Harris tonight… I love it. I am sooo ready for a woman president!
Kent
@Omnes Omnibus: Not saying she didn’t deserve it. She did. I’m just happy that is what they actually lead with instead of something else.
Redshift
@Gin & Tonic:
As am I. We’ve had a good run.
Well, we’ve had a run…
Chetan Murthy
@Mnemosyne: Yesterday there was a thread at LG&M about NY State and the way that the Dems controlling the Senate has changed legislative priorities. And it was pointed-out that where Sen. Gillibrand went liberal the moment she could (that is, when she no longer represented a conservative district), Gov. Cuomo has gone conservative until it was untenable. But Sen. Gillibrand gets pilloried for her positions back when she represented Schenectady (IIRC) and Cuomo is getting credit for being more progressive, even when he was the fucker who helped keep the IDC (Dem traitors, fuckem) in business.
Suzanne
I have been watching about an hour behind, and they are just answering the audience questions now. So I haven’t wanted to follow the live threads
So far…..is it just me, or is Kamala absolutely killing it?
NotMax
@japa21
But Tweety gushed that de Blasio took win, place and show.
:)
Another Scott
Twitter:
By “absolutely astonishing” he of course meant “totally predictable”.
:-/
(via LOLGOP)
Cheers,
Scott.
lamh36
Ooof…they really weren’t ready for that bussing thing?
This is bad spin
Ivan X
OMG Howard Dean’s tie on Daily Show.
Kay
I just watch these debates to hate Chuck Todd more.
Kent
Many of you probably aren’t old enough to remember the issue of de facto vs de jure segregation. De facto segregation was segregated schools in the north that were just “by coincidence” segregated because blacks and whites preferred to live in different neighborhoods. They weren’t segregated by law. De Jure segregation was the old fashioned Jim Crow segregation in the south were laws mandated segregated schools. A lot of the excuse for opposing desegregation in the north was that it was just de facto segregation and not the fault of the law so busing really wasn’t needed. It was only needed in places like Jim Crow Alabama.
THAT is the excuse the Biden went to in his post-debate defense of his position. That segregation in Boston wasn’t de Jure so government mandated busing was unnecessary and he opposed it.
He used that excuse in 2019 after all we know about federally mandated housing discrimination and basically everything Ta Nehisi Coats has written about.
Mandalay
@Ivan X:
@patrick II:
Well the debate certainly revealed something about some of the folks posting here.
Kraux Pas
Tonight was far more confrontational than last night. Harris was the only one who wore that well. Buttigieg did well not taking that tack.
Bernie managed to be less substantive than ever. Though I liked his answer about bringing western hemisphere leaders together about the conditions that are causing people to flee their countries.
I had forgotten until tonight why i had liked Gillibrand so much at one point. She advocated very well for her positions and pointed out where she had been effective in the past.
Favorite moment discussing the debate with my boyfriend tonight re Williamson: him: What did she just say? Me: a whole lot of woo.
Not a lot of love for Biden here. We were joyous as Harris took him down a peg about busing.
Mnemosyne
@Chetan Murthy:
Or there’s today’s news: Nancy Pelosi is personally responsible for the Senate voting overwhelmingly for McConnell’s border bill. Not Schumer, the actual Senate Minority Leader. Nope, it’s all Nancy’s fault.
chris
MomSense
Wooo Hooooo! My candidate crushed it. Kamala for the win!
Aleta
@Kent: Thank you.
Ruckus
@lamh36:
Joe Biden set in his ways. This is my surprised face. The man is old. I know because I’m old and he’s older than I am, by over half a decade. And there is nothing inherently wrong with being old, It’s a nice thing to get to live past what’s considered retirement age. I hope he lasts quite a few more years. But, and it’s a big, round firm but, the job he’s running for takes lot out of one. It also is actually a job in which one is supposed to represent all the people, not just the rich ones or the ones that speak english (or whatever it is that we speak). and people that don’t look like you do or any number of other attributes. Joe’s record isn’t all that good from a democratic issues standpoint. He’s better than BS, but then that’s a pretty short fence to clear and also, who isn’t?
Raven Onthill
@Mnemosyne: Prosecuting the parents of truant: students is authoritarian. You can hear her talk about it here: https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/01/2010-video-shows-kamala-harris-bragging-about-threatening-jail-for-parents-of-truants/
The appeal to privilege just oozes out of that speech.
Here’s an account of how that law worked out in practice: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-truancy-arrests-2020-progressive-prosecutor_n_5c995789e4b0f7bfa1b57d2e.
She was speaking at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco. It’s a privileged audience. She was appealing to privileged people. And that is what I object to. She’s the female person of color appealing to privileged white people.
And maybe she has since learned better. Perhaps.
But I would really rather not find out after she has been made President!
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: “At the time I really thought that busing in Delaware wasn’t necessary, but, looking back from where we are today, I was wrong.” Something like that could have defused the issue. Especially among people inclined to like him. Getting defensive just made it worse.
Redshift
@Raven Onthill:
Thanks for putting in a nutshell why Bernie’s only accomplishments in 28 years in Federal office are renaming a post office and a cost-of-living increase for veterans. It’s not enough to be sure you’re right; to be an effective leader, you have to be able to work with others to make your ideas a reality.
MomSense
@chris:
She’s the only one who will be able to stare down trump in a debate and make him look weak. Plus I think those racist old white dudes like Sessions and trump get all flustered when a black Woman puts them in their place.
Kent
@Aleta: It was just a fucking amazingly bad answer that was bad in the 1970s and just beyond the pale today.
Ivan X
@Mandalay: That men are awful? I could have told you that. But I’m annoyed at the idea that we all have to be perfectly pure of heart and word 100% of the time in order to advocate for what is good. Are you? Are any of us?
With that said, I think we humans should keep our worse thoughts to ourselves, so if I could have that one back, i would.
Kent
Wow, now Lawrence O’Donnell is actually explaining what I just did on de facto vs de jure segregation.
As Lawrence says….”It’s going to get worse and worse for Biden” the more we explore this.
NotMax
Did I miss it or am I remembering correctly that was there not a question about concentration camps?
Martin
Huh. Kamala is my preferred candidate and I didn’t think she did that well relatively to how I’m accustomed to seeing her. I guess I have high expectations. Glad to see her being scored well.
Swalwell’s dig at Biden was good. Biden seemed to respect the delivery.
I think Pete did well. He always seems composed and thoughtful – like Warren.
They really need to thin the field quite badly. I’d prefer 2 groups of 5 until they thin further.
lamh36
Ivan X
@NotMax: I’m pretty sure you mean border resorts.
Suzanne
@MomSense: Plus, she creates such a strong visual contrast with Trumpov. He looks unkempt and gross and messy, and he can’t talk, and he has the same stupid, below-average look of the middle school bully. Harris looks professional, stylish, brilliant, and when she talks, she is compelling and commanding and connects with her audience. LOVE HER.
Another Scott
@Redshift: Kirsten advocated for Bernie’s policy better than Bernie did (when she was talking about the 4-5 year transition to M4A).
Bernie of 2019 is just a four-year-older Bernie of 2015. He’s got the same canned stump speech, the same shouty finger-wagging, the same inability to accept that all the problems in the world can’t be reduced to economics of Us vs. the Billionaires™ and that all that it takes to fix it is for The Masses to Rise Up and March Past Mitch McConnell’s Office. I hope he’s irrelevant before January.
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
Matt McIrvin
@Nicole: Months ago I was saying that it was going to be Warren vs. Harris, but later decided that was just what I wanted it to come down to, and Biden v. Bernie was far more likely.
Now, though…
I dunno. Last night Warren did fine, held her own, but she didn’t dominate the show like many expected she would. Cory Booker and Julian Castro probably got the most gain out of the evening–and maybe Tulsi Gabbard, just because expectations were incredibly low and she had a good moment pwning Tim Ryan.
Tonight, Harris kicked ass. Nobody was close.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Why am I not surprised that you pulled an out of context video pushed by the Daily Caller out of your ass to try and excuse your irrational fear of Harris?
You really need to get out of your Berniebro bubble. That video was debunked months ago.
chris
@MomSense: With a smile!
divF
@MomSense:
This. One of my biggest worries is that this time around, more than in 2016, Trump will be all id in the debates, just like his twitter stream, but in your face. So far, I think that Harris is the one who is best-equipped to punch back hard while looking like she’s in control.
Ivan X
@Martin: Agreed re Harris. You are consistently my favorite commenter here and have been for years, or at least I find myself agreeing with you frequently.
lamh36
@Martin: Pete’s performance will certainly satisify the segment of the Dem electorate that wants to be satisifed by him and the media who love him. But the electorate that he will need to win over to be really competitive in any general…will likely not be much satisfied
We’ll see if he can get some votes before the Southern primaries…cause that will likely be his firewall in the primaries
Mike in NC
@lamh36:
Let us hope!
Ivan X
Man Colbert sounds written by others, and not funny. Like seeing the recap though.
Martin
@MomSense:
I think Warren can do it as well, but in a different way. Kamala can hurt him.
NotMax
@Suzanne
Purely personal perception and certainly no reason to not support her, but the extra-long false eyelashes are a bit too-too.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
Oh, FFS. Do you really think somebody becomes Senator in a state like *California*, or a President, without speaking to, reassuring, being eye-to-eye, with rich people in America? FFS. Really, don’t be an *idiot*.
Also, maybe you should look back at her speeches and debates when she was running for DA. I remember one in particular, where she pointed out that black families also wanted safe streets and for crime to decrease. They just didn’t want their children unjustly victimized by the fucking po-po [ok, my words there at the end].
If you’re looking for the next Che Guevara, lemme tellya, NO person of color, not AOC, not Rashida Tlaib, not Ilhan Omar, not Keith Ellison, is gonna measure up.
Mandalay
@NotMax:
Perhaps it is simply because quickly taken selfies can produce very unflattering images? Sometimes Biden looks handsome and distinguished, but other times he looks like an old man who needs his afternoon nap.
The last thing Biden (or any candidate) needs is an unfortunately timed photo, with their eyes closed and their mouth open, going viral.
Another Scott
@divF: Meh.
Donnie’s a coward who lives to break conventions. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he refuses to debate anyone. (Remember his antics in the GOP debates.)
He’ll probably just have one of his “giant” rallies with “tens of thousands of people waiting to get in”…
We’ll see.
Cheers,
Scott.
Mandalay
@Ivan X: Relax – you didn’t commit the crime of the century. But this just isn’t the place for that kind of comment. No biggie.
chris
@Mnemosyne: That’s awfully kind of you, Legal Insurrection may actually be worse than the Daily Caller.
Mike in DC
@Matt McIrvin: I believe that Warren is waiting to be in the same pairing with Biden, to go in on him for the bankruptcy bill. Warren is/was differently situated from Harris. She’s coming up in the polls and didn’t have any major rivals on stage with her. Harris was stalled in the polls and needed to shake things up and assert herself. Both accomplished what they needed to. It will be interesting to see them on the same stage in future debates.
Ruckus
@divF:
I doubt that anyone will let drumpf act like he did to HRC. He of course won’t take orders from anyone because he is
kingpresident but it will only look good to his fans and if handled at all well it will look very bad to everyone else. But I also think that Harris would do best against him, with Warren a close second.Captain C
@Another Scott:
That would have been useful around the time of the Kavanaugh vote, or the Tax Disaster vote. I don’t seem to remember it happening.
Martin
@lamh36: Oh, yeah. If he’s the candidate, I’m worried about him winning. But he’s really good up there and deserves higher office than mayor.
Harris needs to win Iowa like nobody’s business. She’ll do well in SC, and she’ll do well on Super Tuesday, but she needs to be top 2 in Iowa. I’m probably going out to Iowa to canvas for her. If she can show strong in Iowa, she’ll exit Super Tuesday in the lead.
Martin
@Ivan X: Thank you for saying that. It means a lot.
B.B.A.
Debates don’t matter. Hillary resoundingly beat Il Douche in the debates, and look how far it got her.
Not to sound fatalist but I don’t know that anything we, or the campaigns, or the party can do will move the needle one bit. It mostly depends on stuff like whether the economy continues humming along and how many MAGA choads in Pennsyltucky overdose on heroin in the next year. And we can’t control any of that, so…whatever.
I’ve been commenting a lot less here because I’ve resolved to stop getting so worked up about things I can’t control. I’m feeling a lot better.
Suzanne
@NotMax: I did find her lashes distracting, as well. But whatever.
If we’re talking style points, .I find Hickenlooper’s teeth so distractingly bad that I can’t even look at him. Ughhhh I’m terrible.
Raven Onthill
@Chetan Murthy: “lots of people of color are conservative people…”
Yes. I think this is exactly right. But that is my problem with her. It’s not that she’s a person of color; I’m delighted by that and I think the Democratic candidate pretty much has to be a woman. She’s also a good rhetorician and, to judge by her take-down of Biden tonight, a good prosecutor. It’s that she’s conservative. And you’re probably right. A leftist of color, even a moderate one, would have a very hard row to hoe. Still.
@Mnemosyne: This is David Dayen’s take on her role in the mortgage crisis. He is, in my view, probably the best journalist on the subject:
But this is also why she is probably going to become the nominee; privileged (white) wealth thinks she’s their woman.
On the other hand, we are going to need prosecutions if the disasters of the Trump administration are to be cleaned up. Someone tough is going to have to clean house at Justice and Homeland Security aned she may be just the person to do it. Obama didn’t prosecute the failures of the W. Bush (II) administration and that was a huge mistake.
And, as I keep seeing a need to repeat, she is still a million times better than Trump or any Republican.
lamh36
Oh good Lordt…race politics..really Dennis..
Steve in the ATL
@Chetan Murthy:
Kanye?
Old Dan and Little Ann
Biden / Harris 2020. Never Mind The Bollocks.
Major Major Major Major
plato
@Ivan X: Stop digging.
Bobby Thomson
@Raven Onthill: get bent, Republican.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
Raven, here, let me help you understand what Sen. Harris actually proposed: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/10/19/17995374/kamala-harris-lift-act-basic-income-cash-eitc
It’s a refundable tax credit, just like the EITC. Also, perhaps you weren’t thinking about how little the median family pays in federal INCOME tax: it’s about $6k/yr. FICA is another $3k. So -half- the country pays less income tax than that. A tax (rate) cut doesn’t mean that much to them; a -credit-? Much more. And a REFUNDABLE credit is purposely more meaningful for people who pay almost no tax.
I would hope you were aware of these things, but it seems like not, if you characterize Sen. Harris’ proposal as a “tax cut”.
mrmoshpotato
@Kay:
More? You’re doing it wrong. :)
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
Hope springs eternal. OTOH those guys on street corners with a bullhorn, shouting at the traffic, some of them are there week in, week out, incomprehensible as always, but never giving up on the concept that there are always a few who will listen intently right up to downing the punch. (Jonestown ref)
Bobby Thomson
@lamh36: Kucinich is a forced birth conservative who did a good job of pretending to be something else for a few years.
Ivan X
@plato: Thanks. Helpful!
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
*cough* Please, dude, this is ridiculous. Privileged white wealth didn’t think Obama was their man, and they won’t think Kamala Harris is their woman. Nor Sen. Warren, for that matter.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Bernie Woulda Won this debate but he couldn’t stay awake.
lamh36
Sigh…I was just thinking the thing Biden camp DO NOT want to do is come for Kamala Harris in the wrong way after she bodied Biden.
And this is NOT the way…I hope this is NOT true
divF
@Another Scott:
I’m not so sure that he will take a pass on the debates. The stakes are much higher for Trump this time around, with possible criminal charges against him the moment he leaves office. He will fight like a rabid wolverine, plus he has gotten away with breaking norms and rules, and playing dominance games over the last four years, so he may try to land a knockout punch in a debate. Plus the MSM will set up the questions to evoke from him the worst (” it’s good television”) and he knows that as well.
The argument against that is the possibility that his cognitive decline is so severe that he doesn’t dare to go into such an uncontrolled / unscripted environment.
lamh36
@lamh36:
Ugh…no…no…this is NOT the way
Biden’s camp needs to take the L and keep it moving…Biden was polling at like 38% with Black voters, this may give a bit of a hit…but it was not gonna make much of a dent until the actual voting starts.
“My one Black friend” is NOT the way to go…
Mandalay
@Major Major Major Major:
Hardly a weird coincidence if the plan had already been hatched by Republicans shit stirrers long before the debate. I think that side story has legs.
Steeplejack
Colbert is now welcoming Chris Christie on his show. No bueno. Apparently Christie has a new book he is pimping. But I wish that these Trump cronies, enablers and apparatchiks would be blackballed from appearing on all these shows, grinning and joking as if everything is right with the world. Particularly galling to see someone like Anthony Scaramucci show up on MSNBC, since they have been the most reality-based pundit network.
Not watching Christie.
Kent
@Chetan Murthy: To be fair, Harris herself called it a middle class tax cut in the debate. And I was a little taken back by that too.
sgrAstar
@MisterForkbeard: there is only one “Raven”- our own peregrinating fisherman- and “RavenOnthill” ain’t him.
guachi
@lamh36: That’s really not a winning strategy. “I was Obama’s VP!!!!!” is why he’s riding so high in the polls, but it’s a really poor defense.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Ah, so you’re excusing holding Harris to a different standard than any man is held to because Dayen did the same thing for the same reason.
Birds of a feather flock together.
Bupalos
Yeah horse-race wise Kamala will have gained the most I think and Biden will lose the most. He just isn’t up to this. Never really was but the age is taking its toll even on his ability to bullshit believably. It’s really really bad for the party that he jumped in this race, I really hate the dynamics of how his long slow decline is going to play out.
Aside from the horse-race, Kamala prioritizing middle class tax cut as her #1 issue has to be the single worst line I heard tonight that wasn’t flubbed around in biden’s dentures or the product of Williamson having sprinkled morning glory seeds on her salad.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
lamh36
@guachi: What’s the countdown on how long Symone stays with Biden.
She’s saying the campaign did NOT say what MSNBC was reporting
https://twitter.com/SymoneDSanders/status/1144454591859216384
Raven Onthill
@Chetan Murthy: there is the hammer-and-nail problem. She was a prosecutor, and good at it. But the authority of a prosecutor is not the only tool of governance.
“Do you really think somebody becomes Senator in a state like *California*, or a President, without speaking to, reassuring, being eye-to-eye, with rich people in America?”
Isn’t that exactly the problem? Isn’t that Warren and Sanders have been talking about, over and over? We grant wealth far too much respect and power in this country, and it is killing us.
If these are the people who put her into office – is she going to go against them for the good of the country and the world?
@Mnemosyne: “Why am I not surprised that you pulled an out of context video pushed by the Daily Caller out of your ass to try and excuse your irrational fear of Harris?”
And the black left. They don’t like her at all and go into detail. Perhaps instead of a conservative racist white man I am a radical socialist black woman.
Nah. I’m just a big black bird.
Mnemosyne
@Chetan Murthy:
He’s of the group that thinks Barack Obama and Clarence Thomas are exactly the same because Obama didn’t nationalize the banks in 2009.
jk
@lamh36:
Because Biden is a human gaffe machine, he’ll be getting into these messes every other news cycle if voters are dumb enough to nominate him.
Another stupid reaction from Team Biden. He should have simply apologized for his idiotic and indefensible remark, but unfortunately Uncle Joe doesn’t do apologies because he’s as stubborn as a mule.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
Did you read TNC’s valedictory essay/article/whatever about Obama? He said that the POINT of the way Obama ran his campaign and his Presidency, is that he made it SAFE for white people to vote for him. He made it SAFE.
So some questions for you:
(1) Do you really think that that is no longer necessary?
(2) Do you think that somehow, if a person of color must meet that bar, that it immediately disqualifies them from being President? (say, for the reasons you stated).
Think carefully before answering.
MisterForkbeard
@sgrAstar: Yeah. I have a lot of respect for the OG Raven. Raven Onthill is just a lot to type on my phone. ;)
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Ah, yes, the fabled “Black left” that doesn’t want to see a Black woman as president. No one can seem to find more than one or two of them even with a microscope, but Berniebros sure love them. How else would you be able to show that you have A Black Friend who totally agrees with you that racism isn’t a problem anymore?
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
Separately, let me say that the idea that ANY President can go against the Powers That Be and win, is ludicrous. The ONLY chance we have, is to ally with the “sane billionaires” against the “insane billionaires”. And this isn’t ridiculous. If you read the theories about “stationary bandits” vs. “roving bandits”, it will become clear that “stationary bandits” can be convinced to act in the interests of the vast majority, because they’re planning on being around for centuries.
But maybe you actually -do- believe in revolution. In which case, really, I guess we don’t have a lot to discuss, b/c I suspect most commenters think that revolution gives you Stalin, or The Directory, and not good governance. Political scientists have also weighed-in, and note that revolutions almost never produce good results: what produces good results is incremental change and the rule of law.
ETA: Stationary bandits can be convinced to invest in -infrastructure-, and once having made the investment, will not want it to be squandered by climate change. Stationary bandits can be convinced that underrepresented minorities are an untapped resource that they should promote. Etc. etc.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Just out of curiosity, do you know how many people in California were jailed because their kids were truant too many times? You can give me a ballpark figure.
I should probably warn you that I have an article with the number in it.
Raven Onthill
@Chetan Murthy: “Privileged white wealth didn’t think Obama was their man, and they won’t think Kamala Harris is their woman. Nor Sen. Warren, for that matter.”
They hedge their bets. They would for sure rather have one of their own. But one of their own is not going to be on the ballot, and they know Trump may not win. (And many of them are probably scared by Trump as well.) If they could have Biden, they would, I think. Since they cannot, I think they would much rather have Harris than Warren or – gasp! – Sanders. They’re hoping for a candidate who will leave most of their privilege intact and crack down on the proles, and they can read Harris record to support that view of her.
Kay
@Bupalos:
When I didn’t pay any attention to older people, because I was young and shallow (well- still shallow, but anyway) I used to think they aged at a consistent pace. Like babies. THIS happens at or around 3 months, THIS happens at 6 months. But they don’t. They’ll be going along fine and then there’s a big drop. They can be only a year older but they seem like they aged suddenly. I think Biden had one of those.
I don’t know this for sure but I think if I were his friend I would tell him it’s time to quit. He had a great run. Don’t get greedy.
Jay
@Mandalay:
A lot of my current hero’s are Digital Warriors/Antifia Dectectives who are outing the 4chan/8chan/QAnon/Nazi/fake persona/astroturf attempts at ratfucking in almost real time.
Once upon a time it was Russians, now it’s corporate and domestic.
Too bad the Media is still 2008 on tech. ( CBC’s getting better), but digital fuckery stories are not just informative, but they gather eyeballs and clicks.
Martin
@Raven Onthill:
Good lord, someone’s never been to fucking Oakland.
Let’s talk about a few of the other things California is known for: leading the nation on addressing climate change, leading the nation on abortion rights, leading the nation on manufacturing jobs, leading the nation on agriculture jobs, leading the nation on voting rights, leading the nation on immigrant rights.
She was atty general of that state and defended all of those things.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
This is comical! I suspect that most people who support Harris would be nearly as happy with Warren, and vice versa. I’m pretty sure that’s true of most commenters here. And for sure I would. I plan to donate equal amounts to both their campaigns (was waiting until after the debates, b/c I wanted to see if they could hold their own against their competitors). Because substantively they’d govern the SAME. They’d bring in the same infrastructure of Democratic folks to run their administration. They’d have the same Congresscritters and Senators. C’mon, this is bullshit.
Heck, the big difference I see between -Sanders- and Harris/Warren, is that I don’t think he’s going to play well with other Democrats, and by the time he’s thru shitting all over them, he’s going to have trouble working with them to govern.
But when it comes to what they can -actually- accomplish against the GrOPers, they’re indistinguishable.
Lyrebird
@lamh36:
You said it. I really wish Joe would come out with a few more zingers that get the Twitler upset and then STEP ASIDE. I did not like the earlier PFT Comic or whoever was quoted equating Uncle Joe with the Twitler, because the horror of our *resident is just miles beyond any screw-ups of the Veep. But he’s done.
@Omnes Omnibus: and another round of: you are right as usual!!
cue Salt n Pepa “step aside sir, sir, would you please step aside?”
Frankensteinbeck
@Chetan Murthy:
I don’t think this is true. Sanders has made it clear that he has no interest in understanding the system and coming up with solutions for it, and has no accomplishments that prove he can. Warren and Harris are both ready to fight that fight and try to find ways to get as much done as possible.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
Something else too, Raven: Your position is pretty much that racial and ethnic equality in America, must take a back seat to class and economic issues. Let. Me. Tell. You. Something. This will not work anymore. Maybe it was OK in 1932. But it’s no longer OK today.
And your (I presume) preferred candidate, Bernie, he’s ON RECORD as supporting the continued existence of concentration camps on the border for undocumented and asylum seekers (and these are DISTINCT categories — asylum seekers are protected by treaties to which our country is signatory, so they’re not “illegal” in any sense). Maybe you should go look into this: he said this at his FOX news town hall, and he’s said similar things since.
Now before you start arguing that he didn’t say “concentration camps”, let me note that he didn’t specify legal representation, visitation by family and social orgs, etc, etc, etc. Instead, he just said “yeah, we’ll keep ’em at the border”. Pen these people up with guards who have unreviewable power over their lives. Concentration camps.
So sure, if you think that this is a fair exchange for your “economic revolution”, have at it. But I for one will not have it, and I suspect that most Americans agree with me.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I see that, not for the first time nor probably, alack, for the last, an old issue of Jabobin magazine has grown fingers and is using them to do shots of Rumpelmintz and type Bernieganda
Chetan Murthy
@Frankensteinbeck:
Oh we agree vehemently. I was just being as generous as I could to good ol’ Wilmer. By the time he’s thru pissing-off every Dem in 57 states (*grin*) he’ll -have- to work with the GrOPers to get anything done.
Raven Onthill
@Chetan Murthy: Must we plan on rule by bandits? That seems to me to cede the field before the battle. Besides, some of your “stationary bandits” are squatting on large pools of oil and coal and determined to maintain the value of those pools. If those stay in power it is the literal end of civilization.
I prefer to speak of transformation rather than revolution. And transformation we need. We talk, talk, talk and nothing changes. But do you really think the changes of the 21st century are going to be minor? We can make changes peacefully or brutally, or simply let them roll over us. Me, I am for peaceful change.
@Mnemosyne: here’s some of the black left which supports Sanders and dislikes Harris. https://blackagendareport.com/search?key=kamala%20harris. https://twitter.com/SwayslandJordan. https://twitter.com/MalaikaJabali.
Jay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The new mag is quillette.com.
The problem with the “Intellectual Dark Web”, is there are no lights on.
Mnemosyne
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’m sure you will be shocked to hear that the reason Harris is being attacked on her truancy program is that is was hugely successful and consisted of many more programs than simply jailing parents. Which is why the Bros are laser focused on one tiny part of the overall initiative and pulled one small clip out of context to try and smear the whole program. The numbers show that Harris’s program substantially reduced absenteeism and truancy in California’s schools, and it was her personal crusade that no one else was really championing at that time.
https://edsource.org/2019/harris-stance-on-truancy-again-an-issue-as-she-launches-presidential-campaign/608430
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Mnemosyne: Well, no surprise he didn’t answer your question. Would be curious to see your link though.
I’ve been saying for a while that Harris looked to me like the most talented politician amongst the Democratic field, and I feel vindicated after tonight’s debate. She and Warren have already lapped the rest of the field in my estimation.
edit: LOL you beat me by a few seconds, it looks like
Ruckus
@Chetan Murthy:
First, while he’s running as a democrat, he isn’t one. The only time he claims to be one is when it suits him to run for president. He also running for the senate as an independent, in case he craps out – again.
Second he doesn’t see that shitting on them is a problem, he thinks they need him far more than he needs them. That’s what drumpf thought. Put him in the now disgraced WH and see how much his pontificating gets him. About the same as it gets drumpf.
And if I’m understanding you are saying that if he gets elected BS, Harris, Warren would be indistinguishable. Old man yelling at clouds is not close to the same as Harris or Warren.
guachi
Made my first donation of the Presidential cycle tonight to Harris.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
May I assume you’re unfamiliar with the work of Mancur Olson? Here’s a quick link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson
There’s been a lot of work in this area, though since I’m neither a historian nor a political scientist, I can’t actually judge it too well. But for instance, it’s been noted that hilly terrain (with arguably worse soil) is typically cultivated everywhere even marginally possible, b/c the terrain makes it -defensible-. Whereas broad grassy plains, howsoever fertile, ends up being used pastorally, b/c when you hear about the bandits 30mi away, you can round up your cattle and skedaddle, whereas if your wheat is a few weeks away from ripening, you’re -stuck-.
There’s another word from “stationary bandit”: “government”.
Chetan Murthy
@Ruckus: I’m saying that what is -possible- is the same for each of them. But (from my other comments, and from what I wrote in that comment) I think it’s fair to say that I don’t think he’d accomplish much. And given his views on immigrants, I’d expect some of it to be unacceptably opprobrious.
I’m not any sort of Wilmer fanboi, Ruckus, don’t you worry. Just tryin’ to be as generous to the old coot as I can be. B/c you don’t gotta be harsh to Wilmer, to see that he’s a shitbird.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Interesting how the very first anti-Harris article on that page was written by Lee Fang, who works for The Intercept.
It’s all just one big incestuous mess over there in Bernieland, isn’t it?
You may also be surprised to hear that Lee Fang is not actually a Black journalist. Shocking, I know.
Raven Onthill
@Chetan Murthy: “Your position is pretty much that racial and ethnic equality in America, must take a back seat to class and economic issues”
Quite the contrary, I believe these are inseparable, intersectional and I would add feminism as well. One cannot address them independently. I am in this in alignment with a long tradition of black and feminist socialists.
Rather than trying to read my mind, you could just ask me what I think. I am willing to share my opinions.
At this point, if someone attributes something unconscionable to Sanders I put it in the same box with “But her emails.” The only one of those which I have found any foundation for is his position on firearms. It’s not that they’re necessarily false, but so many of those claims have dissolved on research that I no longer pursue them.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Go Kamala! She rocked it tonight.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Oh, Christ. The writers of that website proudly make appearances on Russian propaganda network Sputnik:
https://freedomrider.blogspot.com/2019/06/appearance-on-sputniks-faultlines.html?m=1
If you’re trying to convince me that support for Sanders is not a giant Russian psy-ops machine, you’re doing a piss-poor job of it.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
So I’m assuming you didn’t watch the Fox News townhall clip to which I alluded. So here, I’ll help: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fox-town-hall-immigration_n_5cb50544e4b082aab08ab77a
“Bernie Sanders Says U.S. Should Build Migrant Facilities ‘Right On The Border’”
Why is this unconscionable? Because asylum-seekers are not criminals; our country is signatory to a number of international conventions that prescribe that we treat these people decently. His words are dog-whistle for internment camps, with guards having unreviewable power over internees.
And he’s for it.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Phooey. I used a bad word and am in moderation without a moderator in sight. Repeating with a fix for the naughty word:
Interesting how the very first anti-Harris article on that page was written by Lee Fang, who works for The Intercept.
It’s all just one big incestuous mess over there in Bernieland, isn’t it?
You may also be surprised to hear that Lee Fang is not actually a Black journalist. Shocking, I know.
Jay
Aleta
@Jay: I like that saying.
plato
Burn. LOL.
NotMax
Can haz après-debate general interest thread?
Mnemosyne
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I just couldn’t hold the link back anymore. ?
It’s a pretty balanced article that actually got quotes from activists who both liked and hated what Harris did.
Chetan Murthy
@Raven Onthill:
I am -shocked- that you can support Sanders after writing the above. He doesn’t give two shits about women’s issues, as evidenced by the way his campaign treated women. A fish rots from the head, dude. From the head. And HE doesn’t agree with you about the inseparability of the struggle for racial equality, and for economic equality. He thinks the former can wait for the latter. It’s been years now, and he still doesn’t have a clue about the daily lives of people of color in America.
Not a clue.
plato
@Raven Onthill:
Read the room, dumbass.
FlipYrWhig
Sanders doesn’t do or say anything of meaning ever. What are your priorities, Sen. Sanders? “We need to change everything by doing things instead of not doing things, and then we will have them.” That’s more or less how he answers every question. “Rich people have things, and that’s bad, so it’s time that different people should have things.” What the fuck is that? There’s nothing to it, every single time. There’s no there there. Not even a whisper of a there there. And that’s what he’s proud to say! It’s amazing to me that various people I know to be smart have been falling for this complete sham for 4 solid fucking years.
Chetan Murthy
Alexandra Petri dunks! https://twitter.com/petridishes/status/1144428855870074881
Jay
@Mnemosyne:
Funny how one can use a stock photo, have no blue check mark, and yet be “authentic”, if the account confirms your bia’s.
plato
Aleta
The sensation of Sanders’ numbers invisibly falling as he spoke, several times tonight.
NotMax
Early reports are that Biden got in 13 minutes of speaking time, the most of anyone on either night.
smike
I really like Marianne Moonlight! Ahhhhhhhh, love. Conquer all will love.
Aleta
A panel of people taking turns at guessing.
Or two panels, the 1% /celebrities vs the commoners.
Raven Onthill
Black Agenda Report is respected. Its executive editor has been broadcasting since 1974. It will take more than one interview appearance to persuade me they are simply a Russian foil.
“substantially reduced absenteeism and truancy in California’s schools” One has to be careful in defending policy with numbers. The examples cited in the HuffPo article were disturbing. They involved things like a child avoiding school because of bullying and another child with sickle-cell anemia. Yes, these children were truant. Their parents ought not have been dragged into court.
@Chetan Murthy: I have heard of Olson though not studied his work; he strikes me as rather an environmental determinist, which is a position I doubt. The whole idea of government as necessary evil seems to me wrong-headed; I am not an anarchist.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
Black Agenda Report was super defensive about their appearances on Sputnik and complained about “Russophobia” back in 2017:
https://blackagendareport.com/freedom-rider-putin-trump-and-manafort
It ain’t one appearance. They’re on Russian state television regularly.
Again, if you’re trying to convince me that Sanders’s support is not a massive Russian psy-ops campaign, you’re choosing the wrong media outlets.
I did like the guy on Twitter you linked to. He was at least willing to admit that Harris did well tonight even if he dislikes her policies.
Chetan Murthy
Omigod. I’m watching The Daily Show and Trevor has Sen. Harris’s clip where she’s just -lacing- into Pervy Uncle Joe for his stand on busing. Omigod it’s great! So great! VRA, CRA, Equality Act, ERA! So great!
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
You mean this HuffPo article?
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c995789e4b0f7bfa1b57d2e
If you’re surprised that Orange County prosecutors overstepped their bounds to drag a Black mother into court because her child’s school didn’t want to give the accommodations her chronically ill daughter needed, you must not know much about Orange County. If Harris’s law hadn’t existed, they would have found another excuse, like authorities did with a mother in Los Angeles who was accused of Munchausen’s by Proxy because she pushed so hard for her asthmatic son to get better treatment. He ended up dying of an asthma attack in foster care.
Raven Onthill
Chetan, Sanders was publically pro-choice in 1981, before it was remotely popular to take that position. He also said that the country should hire hundreds of new judges to expedite the processing of the backlog of immigration cases. In the article you linked, even.
The arguments you are making are the equivalent of “But her emails.”
Black Agenda Report has a relation with Russian media? It seems I must credit that. The person with the connection seems to be Kimberley, and perhaps she is a Russian asset. I am hesitant to believe it of Ford or Dixon, though I suppose it is possible. (They may just hate the US government so much that they are inclined to believe Kimberley.) Kimberley’s stories wouldn’t run without their say-so. If they have turned into Putin’s tools, it would be a sad end.
There’s a lot more here, but it’s getting late, and I’m tired. Instead, I’m going to leave you with an article arguing that attending to race and not class helped cost Clinton the election in 2016.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Raven Onthill:
Really? It was a pretty common view, even among Republicans, in the mid to late 70’s.
Ruckus
@Chetan Murthy:
OK. Wasn’t sure I’d read it right, thanks for the update.
Doug R
@Raven Onthill: Truancy is a major red flag that something is SERIOUSLY wrong.
If parents can’t keep their kid attending school, the state should intervein.
This argument of yours sounds like the flip side of the bullshit troll argument that Hillary shouldn’t be allowed to defend anyone who might be guilty.
Sounds sexist and purity pony to me, knock it off.
Chris Johnson
@Chetan Murthy: Man that’s dark… and, to me, completely plausible. ‘Stationary bandits’, all the way down. That’s basically just… history.
I will note however that some of the economic disaster that’s been underway throughout my whole lifetime TURNS people into roving bandits. Stripping people of their resources and livelihoods forces them to become roving bandits. And this was the biggest source of consternation for me about ‘aspirational economics’ like we were advocating during the last election: doing tech-industry style ‘everybody migrate to California where there’s all the work, and learn to code’ is roving banditry by nature.
For all the backwardness of coal country stagnation, for all the negative baggage carried along with that, the intense committment to ‘stay in one place and hold on to the old days’ at least has the prospect of stationary banditry. Our world has moved so quickly beyond all that, so that the centers of wealth are utterly rootless and can come from anywhere. This is a problem, a bigger problem than people think.
Didn’t have the language for it until you brought up ‘stationary bandits vs. roving bandits’: thank you :)
A Ghost To Most
@Bobby Thomson: Kiss my ass, and go back to fluffing the opportunist.