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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

People are complicated. Love is not.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

“Look, it’s not against the rules anywhere, but a black woman with power was dating and there has to be something wrong with that.”

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

A consequence of cucumbers

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

I desperately hope that, yet again, I am wrong.

I’m just a talker, trying to find a channel!

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

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This country desperately needs a functioning Fourth Estate.

You cannot shame the shameless.

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I’m sure you banged some questionable people yourself. We’re allowed to grow past that.

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You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Second Night / First DNC Liveblog – Part II

Second Night / First DNC Liveblog – Part II

by Anne Laurie|  June 27, 201910:22 pm| 266 Comments

This post is in: 2020 Elections, Kamala Harris 2020

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From the Guardian liveblog:

Here’s Vivian Ho in Oakland on how Harris thrives on being “the adult in the room” in debates, which seems to be her MO so far tonight

Senator Kamala Harris’s supporters have been waiting for her to take the stage in the debates since she announced her candidacy.

She may have stalled in the polls, consistently lagging behind former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders, but anyone who has followed her career knows that she shines brightest when the pressure’s on and she can step into the role of the only adult in room.

After all, her Senate judiciary committee hearings have become almost a spectator sport. Video footage of her flustering attorney general William Barr with a career prosecutor’s mastery has notched millions of views. Her questioning of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh led to memes of her skeptical face circulating around social media.

No doubt, voters tonight are now picturing the kind of damage she could do on a debate stage with President Trump.

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Previous Post: « Second Night, First DNC Debate Liveblog
Next Post: Late Night Open Thread: The “Alt Right” Have Found This Cycle’s Not-Democrat Stalking Horse »

Reader Interactions

266Comments

  1. 1.

    FelonyGovt

    June 27, 2019 at 10:24 pm

    She’s been my candidate all along, and she is killing it tonight. What a contrast to these hectoring old men.

  2. 2.

    dmsilev

    June 27, 2019 at 10:25 pm

    “Pass the torch”. The drinking game we didn’t know we needed.

  3. 3.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 10:26 pm

    Climate change. Running the numbers, no one is running the numbers. Hickenlooper, as usual clueless. Sanders, as usual, is right, and as usual no-one will listen. Williamson is clueless as usual and sounds like a pious fraud.

  4. 4.

    chris

    June 27, 2019 at 10:28 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    Williamson is clueless as usual and sounds like a pious fraud.

    Sounds like? Is!

  5. 5.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 27, 2019 at 10:28 pm

    @Raven Onthill:
    Sanders is Grandpa Simpson, yelling at clouds and waving his onion around.

  6. 6.

    mad citizen

    June 27, 2019 at 10:29 pm

    Looked up Hickenlooper’s scientist claim. He was a friggin geologist. Whatever.

    Glad Bernie pushed back on Chuck’s stupid question.

  7. 7.

    Soprano2

    June 27, 2019 at 10:29 pm

    OH Jesus Bernie!

  8. 8.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 10:29 pm

    Asked for a signature issue. All these different answers. Harris: middle class tax cut. Sigh. Why does anyone trust her?

  9. 9.

    dmsilev

    June 27, 2019 at 10:29 pm

    Williamson panders to the key Kiwi demographic.

  10. 10.

    Leto

    June 27, 2019 at 10:30 pm

    Again, how Marianne managed to grift enough to make it this far… thanks, Trumpov/Republicans. So embarrassing.

  11. 11.

    Mike in NC

    June 27, 2019 at 10:30 pm

    The thing is, man-baby Trump doesn’t like to deal with actual adults.

  12. 12.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 27, 2019 at 10:30 pm

    @mad citizen:
    That was before he became a merchant of death (brewpub owner).

  13. 13.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 10:30 pm

    Williamson = Lady Blah Blah.

  14. 14.

    plato

    June 27, 2019 at 10:30 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    Williamson bs is clueless as usual and sounds like a pious fraud.

  15. 15.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 10:32 pm

    Kamala was laying in the cut for that Biden moment…

    Peep the tweet pic her campaign tweeted. She was mighty quiet when the initial segregationist bits came up…but showing the advantage of waiting and being prepared for her moment…then…BAZINGA!

    @KamalaHarris
    There was a little girl in California who was bussed to school. That little girl was me. #DemDebate

    16.8K
    9:11 PM – Jun 27, 2019

    https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1144427976609734658

  16. 16.

    yet another jeff

    June 27, 2019 at 10:33 pm

    “What is the first thing you’ll do as President?”
    “Defeat Trump!”

  17. 17.

    B.B.A.

    June 27, 2019 at 10:34 pm

    Not watching, but… uh, I don’t have a “but.”

  18. 18.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 10:35 pm

    @lamh36

    bused, not bussed

    Unless she was kissed an awful lot.

  19. 19.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:35 pm

    @NotMax:

    Oh, come on, I’m a pedant but that’s ridiculous!

  20. 20.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:36 pm

    Well, you should look where the fire exits are.

    Sanders again, oh stop!

  21. 21.

    FelonyGovt

    June 27, 2019 at 10:36 pm

    Bernie explaining why he doesn’t have an awful record on guns.

  22. 22.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 10:36 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    You still don’t understand the racial dynamics of America, do you?

    Take a moment to really think about why a Black woman would publicly declare herself in favor of middle-class tax cuts. Come back when you’ve figured it out.

  23. 23.

    Eljai

    June 27, 2019 at 10:36 pm

    At least Rachel knows how to ask a gun question without using Republican talking points. Are you paying attention, Chuck?

  24. 24.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    June 27, 2019 at 10:36 pm

    “it was a quote”

    Zing

  25. 25.

    The Dangerman

    June 27, 2019 at 10:37 pm

    Thursday Zen; Simba (that’s the eaglet) chillin’ in the SoCal sun (presently zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz). Still hasn’t flown.

  26. 26.

    Miss Bianca

    June 27, 2019 at 10:37 pm

    Reposting from downstairs thread:

    Love this bit from the Guardian live-blog, see if you can spot the shade in an unaccustomed spot:

    Chuck Todd: Obama wanted to address healthcare and climate change. Ultimately he could only do one. You might only get one shot, what’s your number one issue?

    Swalwell: ending gun violence

    Bennet: climate change

    Gillibrand: passing a family bill of rights that includes pre-K

    Harris: working families tax cut, Daca, guns

    Sanders: let me do my stump speech, but also, a political revolution

    Biden: you’re underestimating what Barack Obama did. He was strong on climate change. But the first thing I’d make sure we do is defeat Trump

    Buttigieg: fix our broken political system

    Yang: Universal Basic Income, which would help with climate change

    Hickenlooper: collaborative approach on climate change

    Williamson: call the prime minister of New Zealand and ask for her advice on climate

  27. 27.

    plato

    June 27, 2019 at 10:38 pm

    48 point screaming ‘breaking’ headline at fucking bbc.

    “Biden criticized over race at democratic debate”.

  28. 28.

    Emerald

    June 27, 2019 at 10:39 pm

    Bernie: that’s a mischaracterization of what I said.
    Rachel: it’s a direct quote.

  29. 29.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 27, 2019 at 10:39 pm

    @lamh36:
    I just read the exchange Harris v Biden. That’s gonna leave a scar.

  30. 30.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:40 pm

    OMG, Joe said our enemy is the gun manufacturers, “not the NRA”!!!! He was doing okay until that, whiskey tango foxtrot?

  31. 31.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    Good on Bennet.

  32. 32.

    Ella in New Mexico

    June 27, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    Tonight it’s totally Kamala. She has kicked ass every single step of the way. “I’m the little girl who was bused and it shouldn’t be a states rights issue, Joe” was powerful and spot on.

    2nd goes to Pete who is consistently genuine and well prepared and sincere. And KirstenG who is also incredibly formidable.
    3rd place: MAYBE Michael Bennet.

    I love Joe Biden, but it’s time for him to retire and sip some ice cold brews in his backyard with his best friends and watch his beautiful grandkids running around in the sprinkler. Until he needs to campaign for our nominee next year.

    I really don’t think I need to hear from anyone else in the future. So now I’m begging my husband to bail and watch Big Little Lies with me ;-)

  33. 33.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Same reason Trump did, maybe?

    This is her signature issue?

  34. 34.

    mad citizen

    June 27, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    @Raven Onthill: Why so anti-Kamala? Are you trolling us tonight?

  35. 35.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    Kamala Harris has a plan if the Dems don’t win back the Senate. She’ll likely keep a Dem House as Prez…but she knows that the Senate is STILL a hard sellf or some.
    her use of Exec actions shows an awareness of the struggle that could come for control of the Senate
    #DemDebate2

  36. 36.

    FelonyGovt

    June 27, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    Pete “we have no idea which of our allies Trump will have pissed off between now and 1/21”

  37. 37.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    @Raven Onthill: @Mnemosyne: Mnem, I’m very curious to hear your take on this. Seriously. I have one myself, but …. well, I’m not sure I care to share, b/c it could be very, very wrong.

  38. 38.

    dmsilev

    June 27, 2019 at 10:44 pm

    @mad citizen: She’s a threat to The Chosen One.

  39. 39.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:44 pm

    Good answer from Swalwell. “Breaking up with Russia and making up with NATO.” Yeah, it’s canned, but I like it.

  40. 40.

    Leto

    June 27, 2019 at 10:45 pm

    @zhena gogolia: Yeah, that was just so stupid. NRA came out against any gun manufacturer trying to put bio-ID guns onto the market.

  41. 41.

    FelonyGovt

    June 27, 2019 at 10:45 pm

    You haven’t led shit, Bernie.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 10:45 pm

    Swalwell: “My first act as foreign policy? Announce we’re breakin’ up with Russia and makin’ up with NATO.”

    The man understands television.

  43. 43.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:46 pm

    Oh, he helped lead the opposition to the Iraq war? I somehow missed that.

  44. 44.

    Mai Naem mobile

    June 27, 2019 at 10:46 pm

    I hope Kamalas numbers finally go up. She won hands down.

  45. 45.

    Ohio Mom

    June 27, 2019 at 10:46 pm

    “Breaking up with Russia and making up with NATO.”

    Okay, Salwell earned his place tonight. He can bow out of running on this high point.

  46. 46.

    mad citizen

    June 27, 2019 at 10:47 pm

    @Ella in New Mexico: Agree with this ranking generally. I’m in for Kamala, but like Gillibrand lately too. Taking Fox to task, and tonight she had to be aggressive to get into the top tier. I get the impression that she just doesn’t give a F as far as saying what needs to be said.

  47. 47.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:49 pm

    I’m going to miss all the after party. Going out of town for the weekend. This time I’m really going.

  48. 48.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    @dmsilev: That almost made me spit out my Laphroiag.

  49. 49.

    dmsilev

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    Um, what was that?

  50. 50.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    Williamson trying out for “Sabrina the Teenage Witch.”

  51. 51.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    I am drunk and have been texting with my since forever SO:
    Biden is 100
    It’s boring
    I wish Harris and Gillibrand would make out just to keep it interesting. I’m a really progressive liberal
    Buttegieg is whatever
    Biden is ancient
    Harris is pressing/trying too hard. I like her tho
    Gillibrand is smart but when she’s like “I’m gonna take on wall st corruption” it’s like ?
    Marianne Willamson has blown her shot and I like her even less now
    Biden has gone for blowhard mode
    Bernie is oddly subdued, which makes him unexpectedly not loathesome
    Some of these dudes in suits I’ve never even heard of! and they’re not making me wish I did. This was their opportunity
    I seriously think there needs to be a 70 cutoff though that would disqualify Warren so ok 72
    I kind of like Bernie’s accent: “I helped lead the effit” “let me be very cleah” it’s too bad he has to be such a gadfly turd
    I like the way tech bro candidate Yang wears tech bro uniform of no tie. makes him stand out

  52. 52.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    @mad citizen: For someone who was known for dropping F-bombs, etc., she pulled her punches tonight. (She said “heck” at one point, rather than Hell.)

    Gillibrand seemed pretty good to me, but I wonder if she’s staking out things that are far too difficult now (e.g. public financing of elections – even though I would love to see it and think she’s right). The next President and Congress will be overwhelmed with things, even without trying to build support for public financing…

    Harris and Warren have done well.

    But it’s still early.

    Here’s hoping the questions are better in the next debates.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  53. 53.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    @mad citizen: Raven’s been doing this all night. And being super maudlin about how everyone is mistreating Bernie and Bernie is prescient and prophetic but no one will listen.

    And then swears he’s not supporting Bernie but Warren. Troll might not be true, but seems very Bro-ish.

  54. 54.

    Juju

    June 27, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    Holy cow!! Marianne Williamson is high on her own gas.

  55. 55.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 10:52 pm

    @mad citizen: Conservatism and an authoritarian streak. It’s not so much that I’m anti-Harris. It’s more that I think that conservatism is out of answers. There are some specific things she’s done that I don’t like at all, but these flow from conservatism and authoritarianism. Maybe we do need strong leadership, but I question how she has used her strength in the past.

    She was obviously a good prosecutor. I think she’s an excellent public speaker and is likely to win on the strength of that, regardless of her conservatism.

    Still better than Trump, though.

  56. 56.

    dmsilev

    June 27, 2019 at 10:52 pm

    @Old Dan and Little Ann: After due consideration, there are enough candidates running to do an Olympic Torch Relay, so maybe that slogan is ok after all.

  57. 57.

    Inventor

    June 27, 2019 at 10:52 pm

    Williamson is a walking stereotype.

  58. 58.

    Soprano2

    June 27, 2019 at 10:52 pm

    Wow, Williamson is…..interesting.

  59. 59.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 10:53 pm

    @mad citizen: [IDGAF about Frankenstans, so] there’s still a warm place in my political calculus for Sen. Gillibrand, for her solid when it came to sexual harrassment, and for standing up first regarding Franken. She seems to be not measuring up to Sens. Warren & Harris, but notwithstanding, she’s stalwart and did the right thing when it mattered and lots of people were pretty pissed-off at her.

    P.S. And if Al was so lily-white, he coulda fucking asked for an investigation. He didn’t. So STFU, Frankenstans. Nobody said your favorite senator gets to have lunch every day with people who think he’s a fucking molester. They have the right to tell him to go sit by himself. And if he decides that he’d rather quit than be ostracized, that’s *jumping*, not *being pushed*.

  60. 60.

    patrick II

    June 27, 2019 at 10:53 pm

    Not that I am a fan , but have they asked Mr. Wong a single question tonight?

  61. 61.

    dmsilev

    June 27, 2019 at 10:54 pm

    @patrick II: Yes. He was asked about his Universal Basic Income plan at the beginning of the debate. I think there were a couple of other questions as well.

  62. 62.

    Mary G

    June 27, 2019 at 10:54 pm

    Laid down for a few minutes and slept thru most of it. I mostly read news and I’d never heard his voice, which is great. I can’t remember exactly what he said, though.

    Glad to hear Kamala’s kicking ass and taking names. Gillibrand isn’t wowing me.

    So happy to see diversity in the lineup.

  63. 63.

    yet another jeff

    June 27, 2019 at 10:55 pm

    Mr President…if that IS your real name…I’m bringing love!

  64. 64.

    Leto

    June 27, 2019 at 10:55 pm

    @Ella in New Mexico: Good ranking. Harris has been very clear and on point tonight. Hope she raises in the polls. She should.

  65. 65.

    FelonyGovt

    June 27, 2019 at 10:57 pm

    Wall Street! DRINK!

  66. 66.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 10:57 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    Same reason Trump did, maybe?

    You really have no idea how revealing this response is, do you?

    @Chetan Murthy:

    I think it’s because Harris knows she has to reassure paranoid whites like Raven Onthill that she’s not planning to take all of their worldly possessions and hand them over to the Black and Brown hordes.

    And his response to me shows that he is, in fact, convinced that’s going to happen if Harris is elected, just like white supremacist Trump claimed he would provide a middle-class tax cut and then only cut taxes for rich (primarily) white people.

  67. 67.

    Ella in New Mexico

    June 27, 2019 at 10:57 pm

    @Ivan X:

    I am drunk and have been texting with my since forever SO:…I wish Harris and Gillibrand would make out just to keep it interesting.

    I forgive you for this sexist and disgusting comment until I have further evidence you are anything other than a drunk guy who made a really bad judgement call.

  68. 68.

    debbie

    June 27, 2019 at 10:57 pm

    @lamh36:

    My FB feed is on fire after that remark. Hot damn!

  69. 69.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 10:58 pm

    Wilmer really should avoid using the word fossil. Just sayin’.

    Biden’s closing statement straight out the 1980s.

  70. 70.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 27, 2019 at 10:59 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: Franken got jobbed. You and KG can both go fuck yourselves.

  71. 71.

    plato

    June 27, 2019 at 11:00 pm

    So who gets to go to round 2? Who and how it’s decided?

  72. 72.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 11:01 pm

    Ooof…this doesn’t surprise me though.

    It’s exactly how he got into the mess over the segregationist bullshit

    SMH

    Olivia Nuzzi
    @Olivianuzzi
    · 24m
    Replying to @Olivianuzzi
    The source said that internally, field staff says the campaign-organized debate watch parties in early voting states have been “awkward” and that Biden isn’t playing well to those who attended.

    Olivia Nuzzi
    @Olivianuzzi
    According to Biden’s staff, he isn’t listening to his debate prep and he’s “set in his ways,” the source close to the campaign tells me.

  73. 73.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 11:01 pm

    Okay, if the Franken fight is starting up again it’s time for beddy-bye. Thanks everyone! It was fun!

    Glad I put my Kamala Joyful Warrior sticker on my car already!

  74. 74.

    Ella in New Mexico

    June 27, 2019 at 11:01 pm

    @Eljai:

    Are you paying attention, Chuck?

    No. He’s a bit distracted by worries about whether his receding hairline is being well concealed with his buzz cut and gel application, if everyone notices how cut he is since he went Keto and intrusive thoughts about his threats to MSNBC that he get equal time with Rachel cuz he’s big time, dammit.

  75. 75.

    zhena gogolia

    June 27, 2019 at 11:02 pm

    @lamh36:

    He should have rested on his f-ing laurels.

  76. 76.

    mad citizen

    June 27, 2019 at 11:02 pm

    Cellphone down to 3%. Contribution solicited by and made to Kamala. Time for bed.

  77. 77.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:03 pm

    That Brian Williams does not have chronic acute laryngitis is further proof there is no God.

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:03 pm

    @lamh36:

    That’s why I haven’t been fretting over Biden. He’s never done well in presidential primaries because he’s got foot in mouth disease.

    He was a great hype man for Obama, but he’s not going to make it through the primary. Third time is not the charm.

  79. 79.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:03 pm

    MSNBC going STRAIGHT to Harris’ disenbowlment of Biden on busing. They are really pumping Harris.

  80. 80.

    debbie

    June 27, 2019 at 11:04 pm

    @lamh36:

    That second tweet is uncomfortably close to remarks said about Trump in 2016.

  81. 81.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:05 pm

    @plato: TheHill:

    That won’t be enough for candidates hoping to make the debate stage this fall. The DNC announced last week that it would toughen the criteria to get on stage for the third debate in September, requiring that candidates reach at least 2 percent in three polls and round up support from at least 130,000 donors.

    HTH.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  82. 82.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:05 pm

    Everyone down on the floor mingling with the crowd except Biden, who is bending down from the stage.

  83. 83.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 11:05 pm

    @Mnemosyne: @Raven Onthill: Oof. So with some trepidation, here’s my answer to the question Mnem asked you:

    Obama and Harris both come from a world where two things are true:

    (1) lots of people of color are conservative people. They’re [WE’RE] family-values-oriented people, and they believe in hard work and good behaviour. This is true across all the various ethnicities.

    (2) Each person of color in a high and visible position has to think about what white people will think of them, and how that will affect what white people think of the next person of color who vies for that position. It colors everything they do.[A]

    So if Barack Obama had been “the angry black man” President, yeah, that would have been *great*. That was *never* going to happen, regardless of how angry he might have been. And so, even if Sen. Harris were a bra-burning Communist with all Che Guevara’s greatest hits on her iPod, she would STILL advocate for middle-of-the-road policies.

    FORTUNATELY, those middle-of-the-road policies are deemed SOSHULIST by GrOPers. So she can still be a stalwart Dem, while advocating for things like a “middle class tax cut”. And fortunately given America’s racial composition, (real) middle-of-the-road means inclusive and allied with diversity in all its forms.

    OK. So that’s my take on the racial dynamics of my country. Maybe I’m wrong.

    [A] There will come a day, when a highly-visible person of color can be a complete fuck-up (like Dubya) and be neither of disrepute to his family, nor to his ethnicity. That day isn’t not in the foreseeable future. Fact, regardless of how much I might not like it.

  84. 84.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 27, 2019 at 11:06 pm

    I see not watching the Goat Rodeo was a good call.

    Oh, and Wilmer’s not a Democrat and should’ve fucked off to the forest and taken up knitting back in May 2016.

  85. 85.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Well-put, Mnem. Well-put.

  86. 86.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 27, 2019 at 11:08 pm

    @A Ghost To Most: No, you fuck off, you groper apologist.

  87. 87.

    Nicole

    June 27, 2019 at 11:08 pm

    With both of the first debates in the books, I’m letting myself daydream that it will come down to Warren v. Harris, which I would be fine with as my own slogan is, 2020: No Old White Guys.

  88. 88.

    Quinerly

    June 27, 2019 at 11:08 pm

    @Kent: ?

  89. 89.

    John Revolta

    June 27, 2019 at 11:08 pm

    What do you wanna bet the MSM headline is “Prosecutor Harris is mean to Uncle Joe”

  90. 90.

    schrodingers_cat

    June 27, 2019 at 11:09 pm

    For me Kamala was #1 and I also liked Bennet. Bernie actually combed his hair and ironed his clothes. Biden was slurring his words. He needs to retire. I liked Pete B’s answer calling on the hypocrisy of the party of family values.

  91. 91.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 11:09 pm

    @Mnemosyne: isn’t that what Trump did? Reassure paranoid whites?

    Harris participated in, and still defends, the disastrous resolution of the mortgage crisis, which took the worldly possessions of many black people. People of color were hammered hard in the mortgage crisis, much more than white people.

    That said, who knows how she will do as President? And regardless of my objections to her, she would still be about a million times better than Trump or any Republican.

  92. 92.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    Wonder if Biden was sternly instructed to not mingle and allow people to take selfies because it might involve touching women?

  93. 93.

    japa21

    June 27, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    Between the last two nights, most candidates provided a respectable reason to vote for them, some several reasons. The ones who didn’t were de Blasio, Williamson and most particularly Wilmer.

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Note that he refers to Harris as an “authoritarian.” You know, like Mugabe. But he’s not racist! He just hates authoritarians!

  95. 95.

    Nicole

    June 27, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    Also, remember when I said, some weeks back, that Biden isn’t good in debates? Wasn’t good in 1988, wasn’t good in 2008, no reason to think he’d have learned anything by now, since he made it pretty clear tonight he doesn’t think he has ever been wrong about anything.

  96. 96.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 27, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    @Nicole:

    2020: No Old White Guys

    As an OWG myself, I’m perfectly in tune with this slogan.

  97. 97.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:11 pm

    I love Kamala! Breakout star!

    Kamala!

    Elizabeth!

    Kalizabeth!

  98. 98.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 27, 2019 at 11:12 pm

    @Mnemosyne: You notice now how he’s giving her personal responsibility for the mortgage crisis legal results, despite getting a much better result than pretty much any other AG?

    There must be something I’m missing here, SOME reason he keeps going after her. I cant imagine why that is.

  99. 99.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:12 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    2020: No Old White Guys

    As an OWG myself, I’m perfectly in tune with this slogan.

    But what about Baud?

  100. 100.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 27, 2019 at 11:13 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Mugabe? Really? Why not “like Orban”?

    I don’t really know this particular Raven, but this shot was wild, IMO.

  101. 101.

    Fair Economist

    June 27, 2019 at 11:13 pm

    @Kent:

    MSNBC going STRAIGHT to Harris’ disenbowlment of Biden on busing. They are really pumping Harris.

    I’d never expect any MSM to pump her, ever. That disembowelment must have great scores with the focus groups.

  102. 102.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 11:13 pm

    @Ella in New Mexico: What was the judgment call? Saying the quiet parts out loud? Or to think them? I can’t help the latter, but I’ll consider the former as something to improve. Or was it something else I’m unaware of?

    I would rather see either of them as President than anyone else on stage tonight. That doesn’t make me incapable of sexist, objectifying thoughts, however.

    Thank you for your forgiveness/benefit of the doubt.

  103. 103.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 27, 2019 at 11:14 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: If I’m not mistaken, Baud’s a YWG.

    And If I am mistaken, please let me hang on to my illusion for a bit.

  104. 104.

    cokane

    June 27, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    @Nicole: Biden was excellent in the VP debates in 2008 and 2012. Obviously his opponents there were weak, but he was hugely praised by pundits and polling was extremely favorable. Also he was fine enough in the 2008 nomination debates, imo, he basically won the VP slot in large part to his “noun, verb, 9/11” zinger

  105. 105.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I would cut Raven at least a little slack. He’s a decent person, and elsewhere (e.g. Crooked Timber) he’s demonstrated that decency. Doesn’t mean he’s right about anything he wrote. But hey, we’re all of us learning …..

    That said, the idea that Harris is an *authoritarian*? Heh. yeahrightsurefinebye.

  106. 106.

    divF

    June 27, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Kalizabeth!

    A vision that will have every Trumpian male in America crossing his legs.

  107. 107.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    @NotMax:

    Wonder if Biden was sternly instructed to not mingle and allow people to take selfies because it might involve touching women?

    OMG. MSNBC actually alluded to this as why he is up on the stage and not down in the crowd. Damnnn

  108. 108.

    Gvg

    June 27, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: he did ask for an investigation. Things climaxed too fast, it didn’t get done before.
    I have come to think it worked out for the best that he left, but also think we shouldn’t overstate. I think there was something more that was going to come out, and that there were some lies. In other words it was complicated and we couldn’t win the media. Gillibrand is paying a price. Also….I think the democratic voters are going to be kind of risk adverse this cycle.

  109. 109.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:16 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    It would be great if you would stop lying about Harris and the mortgage crisis, but I’m assuming you never will. She’s just too threatening to you.

    Reality — she got the largest settlement of any state, and you can only fucking whine about what you think she “should” have done in addition to getting the largest settlement for the people of California, because no action taken by a Black woman will ever be enough for you.

    https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Kamala-Harris-mortgage-meltdown-record-under-13730708.php

  110. 110.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:16 pm

    @japa21

    And Delaney. And Yang. And Gabbard. And Hickenlooper. And Ryan.

  111. 111.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:16 pm

    @Raven Onthill: SFChronicle:

    Attorneys in her office had singled out the bank for allegedly stacking foreclosure proceedings against homeowners, but Harris says she was hamstrung by legal rules protecting financial institutions from state legal action.

    […]

    Ultimately, Harris did not file suit, and OneWest never paid a settlement to the state. She stands behind her decision.

    “There is no question that I had very serious concerns about their conduct, and I am pretty certain based on what we knew that there should have been some accountability and consequence,” Harris told The Chronicle in an interview.

    But, she said, her department’s hands were tied.

    “We didn’t have the legal ability because of the way the rules were written in favor of the banks in terms of our subpoena powers as the state attorney general,” Harris said.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (“Who thinks relitigating judgement calls like these is a distraction – nobody invested is going to change their minds and there’s no sufficient ‘proof’ either way.”)

  112. 112.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:17 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Take a moment to really think about why a Black woman would publicly declare herself in favor of middle-class tax cuts. Come back when you’ve figured it out.

    Ooh, burn.

  113. 113.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 11:17 pm

    smh…I can’t believe Biden went with a damn state rights defense!

    come da fuq on…are Black folk so enamored w/Joe that we can’t see that as a problem

    SMH

    I loved Joe as VP…but come da fuq on…if ANYONE else on the other side had mad the same defense!

    #DemDebate2

  114. 114.

    plato

    June 27, 2019 at 11:19 pm

    @Another Scott: Thanks. That’s gonna thin the herd quite considerably.

  115. 115.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 27, 2019 at 11:19 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Why not Zoidberg?

  116. 116.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:19 pm

    Andrea Mitchell actually asks Sanders if he thinks that Harris should be the frontrunner now after her disembowlment of Biden….burn

  117. 117.

    Mary G

    June 27, 2019 at 11:20 pm

    Kamala had the biggest increase in Google searches tonight and hopefully can get up higher in the polls going on.

  118. 118.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 27, 2019 at 11:20 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: Fair enough. I think his comments tonight have been stupid, but I’m perhaps going too far.

    Sorry, Raven.

  119. 119.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:21 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    What’s truly hilarious is that he’s parroting pretty much every sexist trope about women candidates and he seems to have absolutely no clue that he’s doing it. It’s like talking to a 12-year-old who just discovered Objectivism because he listened to a lot of Rush albums.

    Reality check:

    https://leanin.org/data-about-gender-bias-in-elections

  120. 120.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    June 27, 2019 at 11:22 pm

    The Daily Show just did an ending bit that said Kamala rattled Biden on race so much that he cut himself off. Accompying video thereafter.

  121. 121.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:22 pm

    Biden saying busing should only address deJure segregation? As in only segregation in the Jim Crow south. Digging himself a bigger and bigger hole.

    Bet TaNehisi Coats would have something to say about that.

  122. 122.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:23 pm

    @lamh36: It was incredibly tone-deaf, wasn’t it?

    Of all the people up there, Biden knows exactly what he’s going to be asked on just about any topic area. And he still mangled answers, or had some canned response straight out of the 1970s. It wasn’t good.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  123. 123.

    Amir Khalid

    June 27, 2019 at 11:26 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:
    As I recall Franken did request an investigation, but resigned before it got underway. Pity: I think that if he did anything wrong it should hae been documented.

  124. 124.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:26 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    There’s a reason why people compared Obama to Mugabe and not to Orban, and it ain’t because Obama bore any resemblance to either of them.

  125. 125.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 27, 2019 at 11:26 pm

    @Kent: They aren’t pumping Harris. It was the TV moment of the night.

  126. 126.

    japa21

    June 27, 2019 at 11:26 pm

    @NotMax: Actually they have a reason that made some sense. Not enough to put themself ahead
    of others. The ones I mentioned provides no redeeming qualities.

  127. 127.

    chris

    June 27, 2019 at 11:28 pm

    Google search before and after the debate. Kamala!

    @Mary G:

    Map: Before and after #DemDebate2More data: https://t.co/I0WiP7r7bt pic.twitter.com/Wmf76znQSl— GoogleTrends (@GoogleTrends) June 28, 2019

  128. 128.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:28 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Ethics investigations can take years under the existing system. It wasn’t tenable. He had to go.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (“Who was a big Franken supporter.”)

  129. 129.

    B.B.A.

    June 27, 2019 at 11:28 pm

    A few months ago I called that Harris would win the nomination. Judging from the reactions (I haven’t watched debates in years, it gives me hives) I think I predicted correctly.

  130. 130.

    rikyrah

    June 27, 2019 at 11:29 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:
    Yep…you nailed it

  131. 131.

    West of the Rockies

    June 27, 2019 at 11:29 pm

    So word on the street is Warren won last night and Harris tonight… I love it. I am sooo ready for a woman president!

  132. 132.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:30 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Not saying she didn’t deserve it. She did. I’m just happy that is what they actually lead with instead of something else.

  133. 133.

    Redshift

    June 27, 2019 at 11:30 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    As an OWG myself, I’m perfectly in tune with this slogan.

    As am I. We’ve had a good run.

    Well, we’ve had a run…

  134. 134.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 11:32 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Yesterday there was a thread at LG&M about NY State and the way that the Dems controlling the Senate has changed legislative priorities. And it was pointed-out that where Sen. Gillibrand went liberal the moment she could (that is, when she no longer represented a conservative district), Gov. Cuomo has gone conservative until it was untenable. But Sen. Gillibrand gets pilloried for her positions back when she represented Schenectady (IIRC) and Cuomo is getting credit for being more progressive, even when he was the fucker who helped keep the IDC (Dem traitors, fuckem) in business.

  135. 135.

    Suzanne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:32 pm

    I have been watching about an hour behind, and they are just answering the audience questions now. So I haven’t wanted to follow the live threads

    So far…..is it just me, or is Kamala absolutely killing it?

  136. 136.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:33 pm

    @japa21

    But Tweety gushed that de Blasio took win, place and show.

    :)

  137. 137.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:33 pm

    Twitter:

    Ari Berman Verified account @AriBerman

    Absolutely astonishing there were two huge SCOTUS opinions on gerrymandering & census today and no questions about it at #DemDebate2

    27 debates in 2016 & 2020 and still no questions about attack on voting rights

    7:58 PM – 27 Jun 2019

    By “absolutely astonishing” he of course meant “totally predictable”.

    :-/

    (via LOLGOP)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  138. 138.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 11:34 pm

    Ooof…they really weren’t ready for that bussing thing?

    This is bad spin

    @Yamiche
    Following Following @Yamiche
    More
    NEW: I asked @SymoneDSanders, senior advisor to @JoeBiden, what Biden believes the role of the federal govt should have been on busing and integration. Her response: “On that specific question, I haven’t asked him so I can’t tell you that specific question.”

    10:20 PM – 27 Jun 2019

    @Yamiche
    9m9 minutes ago
    More
    .@SymoneDSanders said this when I asked about the exchange between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris: “We are not freaking out. We understood that when you go into the debate as front runner that you can expect to take a little fire. We totally expected to take a little fire.”

    @Yamiche
    8m8 minutes ago
    More
    .@SymoneDSanders added that she and other advisers to Joe Biden are happy with his performance. “His goal was to speak directly to the American people and he did that,” she said.

    5m5 minutes ago
    More
    Joe Biden tells @GarrettHaake: Federal govt should have a role in breaking down barriers to institutional racism. “I supported the courts ability to order busing.” Biden adds that the race should be about the future and what we should be doing about the prison system.
    https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1144445353862807552

  139. 139.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 11:34 pm

    OMG Howard Dean’s tie on Daily Show.

  140. 140.

    Kay

    June 27, 2019 at 11:34 pm

    Seth Masket
    ‏Verified account
    @smotus
    48m48 minutes ago
    More
    Chuck Todd: “What’s the first syllable you will utter upon moving into the Oval Office?”
    #demdebate

    I just watch these debates to hate Chuck Todd more.

  141. 141.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:35 pm

    Many of you probably aren’t old enough to remember the issue of de facto vs de jure segregation. De facto segregation was segregated schools in the north that were just “by coincidence” segregated because blacks and whites preferred to live in different neighborhoods. They weren’t segregated by law. De Jure segregation was the old fashioned Jim Crow segregation in the south were laws mandated segregated schools. A lot of the excuse for opposing desegregation in the north was that it was just de facto segregation and not the fault of the law so busing really wasn’t needed. It was only needed in places like Jim Crow Alabama.

    THAT is the excuse the Biden went to in his post-debate defense of his position. That segregation in Boston wasn’t de Jure so government mandated busing was unnecessary and he opposed it.

    He used that excuse in 2019 after all we know about federally mandated housing discrimination and basically everything Ta Nehisi Coats has written about.

  142. 142.

    Mandalay

    June 27, 2019 at 11:35 pm

    @Ivan X:

    I wish Harris and Gillibrand would make out just to keep it interesting.

    @patrick II:

    have they asked Mr. Wong a single question tonight?

    Well the debate certainly revealed something about some of the folks posting here.

  143. 143.

    Kraux Pas

    June 27, 2019 at 11:36 pm

    Tonight was far more confrontational than last night. Harris was the only one who wore that well. Buttigieg did well not taking that tack.

    Bernie managed to be less substantive than ever. Though I liked his answer about bringing western hemisphere leaders together about the conditions that are causing people to flee their countries.

    I had forgotten until tonight why i had liked Gillibrand so much at one point. She advocated very well for her positions and pointed out where she had been effective in the past.

    Favorite moment discussing the debate with my boyfriend tonight re Williamson: him: What did she just say? Me: a whole lot of woo.

    Not a lot of love for Biden here. We were joyous as Harris took him down a peg about busing.

  144. 144.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:36 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Or there’s today’s news: Nancy Pelosi is personally responsible for the Senate voting overwhelmingly for McConnell’s border bill. Not Schumer, the actual Senate Minority Leader. Nope, it’s all Nancy’s fault.

  145. 145.

    chris

    June 27, 2019 at 11:37 pm

    Harris's refusal to stop talking until she's done talking sends at least as powerful a message as her actual words.— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) June 28, 2019

  146. 146.

    MomSense

    June 27, 2019 at 11:37 pm

    Wooo Hooooo! My candidate crushed it. Kamala for the win!

  147. 147.

    Aleta

    June 27, 2019 at 11:37 pm

    @Kent: Thank you.

  148. 148.

    Ruckus

    June 27, 2019 at 11:38 pm

    @lamh36:
    Joe Biden set in his ways. This is my surprised face. The man is old. I know because I’m old and he’s older than I am, by over half a decade. And there is nothing inherently wrong with being old, It’s a nice thing to get to live past what’s considered retirement age. I hope he lasts quite a few more years. But, and it’s a big, round firm but, the job he’s running for takes lot out of one. It also is actually a job in which one is supposed to represent all the people, not just the rich ones or the ones that speak english (or whatever it is that we speak). and people that don’t look like you do or any number of other attributes. Joe’s record isn’t all that good from a democratic issues standpoint. He’s better than BS, but then that’s a pretty short fence to clear and also, who isn’t?

  149. 149.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 11:38 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Prosecuting the parents of truant: students is authoritarian. You can hear her talk about it here: https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/01/2010-video-shows-kamala-harris-bragging-about-threatening-jail-for-parents-of-truants/

    The appeal to privilege just oozes out of that speech.

    Here’s an account of how that law worked out in practice: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-truancy-arrests-2020-progressive-prosecutor_n_5c995789e4b0f7bfa1b57d2e.

    She was speaking at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco. It’s a privileged audience. She was appealing to privileged people. And that is what I object to. She’s the female person of color appealing to privileged white people.

    And maybe she has since learned better. Perhaps.

    But I would really rather not find out after she has been made President!

  150. 150.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 27, 2019 at 11:38 pm

    @lamh36: “At the time I really thought that busing in Delaware wasn’t necessary, but, looking back from where we are today, I was wrong.” Something like that could have defused the issue. Especially among people inclined to like him. Getting defensive just made it worse.

  151. 151.

    Redshift

    June 27, 2019 at 11:39 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    Sanders, as usual, is right, and as usual no-one will listen.

    Thanks for putting in a nutshell why Bernie’s only accomplishments in 28 years in Federal office are renaming a post office and a cost-of-living increase for veterans. It’s not enough to be sure you’re right; to be an effective leader, you have to be able to work with others to make your ideas a reality.

  152. 152.

    MomSense

    June 27, 2019 at 11:39 pm

    @chris:

    She’s the only one who will be able to stare down trump in a debate and make him look weak. Plus I think those racist old white dudes like Sessions and trump get all flustered when a black Woman puts them in their place.

  153. 153.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:39 pm

    @Aleta: It was just a fucking amazingly bad answer that was bad in the 1970s and just beyond the pale today.

  154. 154.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 11:41 pm

    @Mandalay: That men are awful? I could have told you that. But I’m annoyed at the idea that we all have to be perfectly pure of heart and word 100% of the time in order to advocate for what is good. Are you? Are any of us?

    With that said, I think we humans should keep our worse thoughts to ourselves, so if I could have that one back, i would.

  155. 155.

    Kent

    June 27, 2019 at 11:42 pm

    Wow, now Lawrence O’Donnell is actually explaining what I just did on de facto vs de jure segregation.

    As Lawrence says….”It’s going to get worse and worse for Biden” the more we explore this.

  156. 156.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:42 pm

    Did I miss it or am I remembering correctly that was there not a question about concentration camps?

  157. 157.

    Martin

    June 27, 2019 at 11:43 pm

    Huh. Kamala is my preferred candidate and I didn’t think she did that well relatively to how I’m accustomed to seeing her. I guess I have high expectations. Glad to see her being scored well.

    Swalwell’s dig at Biden was good. Biden seemed to respect the delivery.
    I think Pete did well. He always seems composed and thoughtful – like Warren.

    They really need to thin the field quite badly. I’d prefer 2 groups of 5 until they thin further.

  158. 158.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 11:44 pm

    @notcapn_america
    Following Following @notcapn_america
    More
    Kamala Harris is the only person that had the guts to take on the front runner in this race.

    Not even Bernie could do it face to face even though he’s been talking shit about Biden to the media for months.

    She is fearless and she will destroy every molecule of Donald Trump.

    10:12 PM – 27 Jun 2019

  159. 159.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 11:45 pm

    @NotMax: I’m pretty sure you mean border resorts.

  160. 160.

    Suzanne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:45 pm

    @MomSense: Plus, she creates such a strong visual contrast with Trumpov. He looks unkempt and gross and messy, and he can’t talk, and he has the same stupid, below-average look of the middle school bully. Harris looks professional, stylish, brilliant, and when she talks, she is compelling and commanding and connects with her audience. LOVE HER.

  161. 161.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:46 pm

    @Redshift: Kirsten advocated for Bernie’s policy better than Bernie did (when she was talking about the 4-5 year transition to M4A).

    Bernie of 2019 is just a four-year-older Bernie of 2015. He’s got the same canned stump speech, the same shouty finger-wagging, the same inability to accept that all the problems in the world can’t be reduced to economics of Us vs. the Billionaires™ and that all that it takes to fix it is for The Masses to Rise Up and March Past Mitch McConnell’s Office. I hope he’s irrelevant before January.

    (sigh)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  162. 162.

    Matt McIrvin

    June 27, 2019 at 11:46 pm

    @Nicole: Months ago I was saying that it was going to be Warren vs. Harris, but later decided that was just what I wanted it to come down to, and Biden v. Bernie was far more likely.

    Now, though…

    I dunno. Last night Warren did fine, held her own, but she didn’t dominate the show like many expected she would. Cory Booker and Julian Castro probably got the most gain out of the evening–and maybe Tulsi Gabbard, just because expectations were incredibly low and she had a good moment pwning Tim Ryan.

    Tonight, Harris kicked ass. Nobody was close.

  163. 163.

    Mnemosyne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:47 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    Why am I not surprised that you pulled an out of context video pushed by the Daily Caller out of your ass to try and excuse your irrational fear of Harris?

    You really need to get out of your Berniebro bubble. That video was debunked months ago.

  164. 164.

    chris

    June 27, 2019 at 11:47 pm

    @MomSense: With a smile!

  165. 165.

    divF

    June 27, 2019 at 11:47 pm

    @MomSense:

    She’s the only one who will be able to stare down trump in a debate and make him look weak.

    This. One of my biggest worries is that this time around, more than in 2016, Trump will be all id in the debates, just like his twitter stream, but in your face. So far, I think that Harris is the one who is best-equipped to punch back hard while looking like she’s in control.

  166. 166.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 11:47 pm

    @Martin: Agreed re Harris. You are consistently my favorite commenter here and have been for years, or at least I find myself agreeing with you frequently.

  167. 167.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 11:48 pm

    @Martin: Pete’s performance will certainly satisify the segment of the Dem electorate that wants to be satisifed by him and the media who love him. But the electorate that he will need to win over to be really competitive in any general…will likely not be much satisfied

    We’ll see if he can get some votes before the Southern primaries…cause that will likely be his firewall in the primaries

  168. 168.

    Mike in NC

    June 27, 2019 at 11:49 pm

    @lamh36:

    She is fearless and she will destroy every molecule of Donald Trump.

    Let us hope!

  169. 169.

    Ivan X

    June 27, 2019 at 11:49 pm

    Man Colbert sounds written by others, and not funny. Like seeing the recap though.

  170. 170.

    Martin

    June 27, 2019 at 11:49 pm

    @MomSense:

    She’s the only one who will be able to stare down trump in a debate and make him look weak.

    I think Warren can do it as well, but in a different way. Kamala can hurt him.

  171. 171.

    NotMax

    June 27, 2019 at 11:50 pm

    @Suzanne

    Purely personal perception and certainly no reason to not support her, but the extra-long false eyelashes are a bit too-too.

  172. 172.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 27, 2019 at 11:50 pm

    @Raven Onthill:

    She was speaking at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco.

    Oh, FFS. Do you really think somebody becomes Senator in a state like *California*, or a President, without speaking to, reassuring, being eye-to-eye, with rich people in America? FFS. Really, don’t be an *idiot*.

    Also, maybe you should look back at her speeches and debates when she was running for DA. I remember one in particular, where she pointed out that black families also wanted safe streets and for crime to decrease. They just didn’t want their children unjustly victimized by the fucking po-po [ok, my words there at the end].

    If you’re looking for the next Che Guevara, lemme tellya, NO person of color, not AOC, not Rashida Tlaib, not Ilhan Omar, not Keith Ellison, is gonna measure up.

  173. 173.

    Mandalay

    June 27, 2019 at 11:51 pm

    @NotMax:

    Wonder if Biden was sternly instructed to not mingle and allow people to take selfies because it might involve touching women?

    Perhaps it is simply because quickly taken selfies can produce very unflattering images? Sometimes Biden looks handsome and distinguished, but other times he looks like an old man who needs his afternoon nap.

    The last thing Biden (or any candidate) needs is an unfortunately timed photo, with their eyes closed and their mouth open, going viral.

  174. 174.

    Another Scott

    June 27, 2019 at 11:51 pm

    @divF: Meh.

    Donnie’s a coward who lives to break conventions. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he refuses to debate anyone. (Remember his antics in the GOP debates.)

    He’ll probably just have one of his “giant” rallies with “tens of thousands of people waiting to get in”…

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  175. 175.

    Mandalay

    June 27, 2019 at 11:53 pm

    @Ivan X: Relax – you didn’t commit the crime of the century. But this just isn’t the place for that kind of comment. No biggie.

  176. 176.

    chris

    June 27, 2019 at 11:54 pm

    @Mnemosyne: That’s awfully kind of you, Legal Insurrection may actually be worse than the Daily Caller.

  177. 177.

    Mike in DC

    June 27, 2019 at 11:54 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: I believe that Warren is waiting to be in the same pairing with Biden, to go in on him for the bankruptcy bill. Warren is/was differently situated from Harris. She’s coming up in the polls and didn’t have any major rivals on stage with her. Harris was stalled in the polls and needed to shake things up and assert herself. Both accomplished what they needed to. It will be interesting to see them on the same stage in future debates.

  178. 178.

    Ruckus

    June 27, 2019 at 11:55 pm

    @divF:
    I doubt that anyone will let drumpf act like he did to HRC. He of course won’t take orders from anyone because he is king president but it will only look good to his fans and if handled at all well it will look very bad to everyone else. But I also think that Harris would do best against him, with Warren a close second.

  179. 179.

    Captain C

    June 27, 2019 at 11:55 pm

    @Another Scott:

    and that all that it takes to fix it is for The Masses to Rise Up and March Past Mitch McConnell’s Office. I hope he’s irrelevant before January.

    That would have been useful around the time of the Kavanaugh vote, or the Tax Disaster vote. I don’t seem to remember it happening.

  180. 180.

    Martin

    June 27, 2019 at 11:55 pm

    @lamh36: Oh, yeah. If he’s the candidate, I’m worried about him winning. But he’s really good up there and deserves higher office than mayor.

    Harris needs to win Iowa like nobody’s business. She’ll do well in SC, and she’ll do well on Super Tuesday, but she needs to be top 2 in Iowa. I’m probably going out to Iowa to canvas for her. If she can show strong in Iowa, she’ll exit Super Tuesday in the lead.

  181. 181.

    Martin

    June 27, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    @Ivan X: Thank you for saying that. It means a lot.

  182. 182.

    B.B.A.

    June 27, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    Debates don’t matter. Hillary resoundingly beat Il Douche in the debates, and look how far it got her.

    Not to sound fatalist but I don’t know that anything we, or the campaigns, or the party can do will move the needle one bit. It mostly depends on stuff like whether the economy continues humming along and how many MAGA choads in Pennsyltucky overdose on heroin in the next year. And we can’t control any of that, so…whatever.

    I’ve been commenting a lot less here because I’ve resolved to stop getting so worked up about things I can’t control. I’m feeling a lot better.

  183. 183.

    Suzanne

    June 27, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    @NotMax: I did find her lashes distracting, as well. But whatever.

    If we’re talking style points, .I find Hickenlooper’s teeth so distractingly bad that I can’t even look at him. Ughhhh I’m terrible.

  184. 184.

    Raven Onthill

    June 27, 2019 at 11:58 pm

    @Chetan Murthy: “lots of people of color are conservative people…”

    Yes. I think this is exactly right. But that is my problem with her. It’s not that she’s a person of color; I’m delighted by that and I think the Democratic candidate pretty much has to be a woman. She’s also a good rhetorician and, to judge by her take-down of Biden tonight, a good prosecutor. It’s that she’s conservative. And you’re probably right. A leftist of color, even a moderate one, would have a very hard row to hoe. Still.

    @Mnemosyne: This is David Dayen’s take on her role in the mortgage crisis. He is, in my view, probably the best journalist on the subject:

    There isn’t a particular individual to single out and blame for the party’s failure, and that’s not what this story is doing. Kamala Harris’s role in the affair was no more or less tragic than anyone else’s. But now that she’s running for president, Harris is not only eliding responsibility for her part in the failure, but claiming it as an outright success. That claim doesn’t withstand a moment’s scrutiny. […] Equating a toothless settlement with a sufficient penalty for criminal fraud sets a meager baseline for what constitutes punishment, virtually ensuring subsequent crimes. If we will ever dismantle a system that delivers one set of laws for the powerful and another for everybody else, we must be honest about the glaring inadequacies of the past. – https://theintercept.com/2019/03/13/kamala-harris-mortage-crisis/

    But this is also why she is probably going to become the nominee; privileged (white) wealth thinks she’s their woman.

    On the other hand, we are going to need prosecutions if the disasters of the Trump administration are to be cleaned up. Someone tough is going to have to clean house at Justice and Homeland Security aned she may be just the person to do it. Obama didn’t prosecute the failures of the W. Bush (II) administration and that was a huge mistake.

    And, as I keep seeing a need to repeat, she is still a million times better than Trump or any Republican.

  185. 185.

    lamh36

    June 27, 2019 at 11:58 pm

    Oh good Lordt…race politics..really Dennis..

    @Dennis_Kucinich
    Follow Follow @Dennis_Kucinich
    More
    Attack on @JoeBiden over racial issues dramatic — and false #DemDebate2 didn’t he serve as#VicePresident Biden for eight years under #PresidentObama America’s first African American President? Wake up. Keep #race politics out of these debates!

    10:30 PM – 27 Jun 2019

  186. 186.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 27, 2019 at 11:59 pm

    @Chetan Murthy:

    There will come a day, when a highly-visible person of color can be a complete fuck-up (like Dubya) and be neither of disrepute to his family, nor to his ethnicity. That day isn’t not in the foreseeable future.

    Kanye?

  187. 187.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    June 27, 2019 at 11:59 pm

    Biden / Harris 2020. Never Mind The Bollocks.

  188. 188.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 27, 2019 at 11:59 pm

    What a weird coincidence that a group of accounts, starting with Ali, decided to tweet the exact same thing (verbatim) about Kamala Harris within minutes of each other tonight. #DemDebate2 pic.twitter.com/2lxFSJTd77

    — Caroline Orr (@RVAwonk) June 28, 2019

  189. 189.

    plato

    June 28, 2019 at 12:00 am

    @Ivan X: Stop digging.

  190. 190.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 28, 2019 at 12:00 am

    @Raven Onthill: get bent, Republican.

  191. 191.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 12:01 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Harris: middle class tax cut.

    Raven, here, let me help you understand what Sen. Harris actually proposed: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/10/19/17995374/kamala-harris-lift-act-basic-income-cash-eitc

    you can think of Harris’s plan as a particularly massive expansion of the earned income tax credit, so that the solidly middle-class benefit too, not just the working poor. And instead of loading up benefits at tax time, people could get them as a monthly check in the mail.

    It’s a refundable tax credit, just like the EITC. Also, perhaps you weren’t thinking about how little the median family pays in federal INCOME tax: it’s about $6k/yr. FICA is another $3k. So -half- the country pays less income tax than that. A tax (rate) cut doesn’t mean that much to them; a -credit-? Much more. And a REFUNDABLE credit is purposely more meaningful for people who pay almost no tax.

    I would hope you were aware of these things, but it seems like not, if you characterize Sen. Harris’ proposal as a “tax cut”.

  192. 192.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 28, 2019 at 12:02 am

    @Kay:

    I just watch these debates to hate Chuck Todd more.

    More? You’re doing it wrong. :)

  193. 193.

    Ruckus

    June 28, 2019 at 12:02 am

    @Another Scott:

    I hope he’s irrelevant before January.

    Hope springs eternal. OTOH those guys on street corners with a bullhorn, shouting at the traffic, some of them are there week in, week out, incomprehensible as always, but never giving up on the concept that there are always a few who will listen intently right up to downing the punch. (Jonestown ref)

  194. 194.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 28, 2019 at 12:03 am

    @lamh36: Kucinich is a forced birth conservative who did a good job of pretending to be something else for a few years.

  195. 195.

    Ivan X

    June 28, 2019 at 12:03 am

    @plato: Thanks. Helpful!

  196. 196.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 12:03 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    privileged (white) wealth thinks she’s their woman.

    *cough* Please, dude, this is ridiculous. Privileged white wealth didn’t think Obama was their man, and they won’t think Kamala Harris is their woman. Nor Sen. Warren, for that matter.

  197. 197.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    June 28, 2019 at 12:03 am

    Bernie Woulda Won this debate but he couldn’t stay awake.

  198. 198.

    lamh36

    June 28, 2019 at 12:04 am

    Sigh…I was just thinking the thing Biden camp DO NOT want to do is come for Kamala Harris in the wrong way after she bodied Biden.

    And this is NOT the way…I hope this is NOT true

    @JamilSmith
    19s19 seconds ago
    More
    The @JoeBiden team said that @KamalaHarris is “doing exactly what Trump wants,” per MSNBC. Fails on two levels. First, he doesn’t want a charismatic black candidate telling the truth about racism. Second, the idea Trump wants Biden out of the race, after tonight, seems laughable.

  199. 199.

    divF

    June 28, 2019 at 12:07 am

    @Another Scott:
    I’m not so sure that he will take a pass on the debates. The stakes are much higher for Trump this time around, with possible criminal charges against him the moment he leaves office. He will fight like a rabid wolverine, plus he has gotten away with breaking norms and rules, and playing dominance games over the last four years, so he may try to land a knockout punch in a debate. Plus the MSM will set up the questions to evoke from him the worst (” it’s good television”) and he knows that as well.

    The argument against that is the possibility that his cognitive decline is so severe that he doesn’t dare to go into such an uncontrolled / unscripted environment.

  200. 200.

    lamh36

    June 28, 2019 at 12:08 am

    @lamh36:

    Ugh…no…no…this is NOT the way

    Biden’s camp needs to take the L and keep it moving…Biden was polling at like 38% with Black voters, this may give a bit of a hit…but it was not gonna make much of a dent until the actual voting starts.

    “My one Black friend” is NOT the way to go…

    @edokeefe
    49m49 minutes ago
    More
    Another Biden aide describes VP’s performance as “solid overall” and calls the Harris attack re: busing and his work with segregationist senators “a low blow.” Senior aide adds: “It’s kinda hard to imply someone is racist when the were the VP to the first Black president.” (2/)

  201. 201.

    Mandalay

    June 28, 2019 at 12:09 am

    @Major Major Major Major:

    What a weird coincidence that a group of accounts, starting with Ali, decided to tweet the exact same thing (verbatim) about Kamala Harris within minutes of each other tonight.

    Hardly a weird coincidence if the plan had already been hatched by Republicans shit stirrers long before the debate. I think that side story has legs.

  202. 202.

    Steeplejack

    June 28, 2019 at 12:13 am

    Colbert is now welcoming Chris Christie on his show. No bueno. Apparently Christie has a new book he is pimping. But I wish that these Trump cronies, enablers and apparatchiks would be blackballed from appearing on all these shows, grinning and joking as if everything is right with the world. Particularly galling to see someone like Anthony Scaramucci show up on MSNBC, since they have been the most reality-based pundit network.

    Not watching Christie.

  203. 203.

    Kent

    June 28, 2019 at 12:14 am

    @Chetan Murthy: To be fair, Harris herself called it a middle class tax cut in the debate. And I was a little taken back by that too.

  204. 204.

    sgrAstar

    June 28, 2019 at 12:14 am

    @MisterForkbeard: there is only one “Raven”- our own peregrinating fisherman- and “RavenOnthill” ain’t him.

  205. 205.

    guachi

    June 28, 2019 at 12:15 am

    @lamh36: That’s really not a winning strategy. “I was Obama’s VP!!!!!” is why he’s riding so high in the polls, but it’s a really poor defense.

  206. 206.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 12:16 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Ah, so you’re excusing holding Harris to a different standard than any man is held to because Dayen did the same thing for the same reason.

    Birds of a feather flock together.

  207. 207.

    Bupalos

    June 28, 2019 at 12:17 am

    Yeah horse-race wise Kamala will have gained the most I think and Biden will lose the most. He just isn’t up to this. Never really was but the age is taking its toll even on his ability to bullshit believably. It’s really really bad for the party that he jumped in this race, I really hate the dynamics of how his long slow decline is going to play out.

    Aside from the horse-race, Kamala prioritizing middle class tax cut as her #1 issue has to be the single worst line I heard tonight that wasn’t flubbed around in biden’s dentures or the product of Williamson having sprinkled morning glory seeds on her salad.

  208. 208.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    June 28, 2019 at 12:18 am

    MODERATOR: Your favorite color?

    GILLIBRAND: Blue!

    SWALWELL: Red!

    KAMALA: Yellow. Purple? Pink!

    BERNIE: THE POWERFUL LIGHT INDUSTRY FOR TOO LONG HAS SOLD US ON “COLORS” AS IF THEY ARE NOT ALL SIMPLY POINTS ON ONE SPECTRUM

  209. 209.

    lamh36

    June 28, 2019 at 12:18 am

    @guachi: What’s the countdown on how long Symone stays with Biden.

    She’s saying the campaign did NOT say what MSNBC was reporting

    https://twitter.com/SymoneDSanders/status/1144454591859216384

  210. 210.

    Raven Onthill

    June 28, 2019 at 12:19 am

    @Chetan Murthy: there is the hammer-and-nail problem. She was a prosecutor, and good at it. But the authority of a prosecutor is not the only tool of governance.

    “Do you really think somebody becomes Senator in a state like *California*, or a President, without speaking to, reassuring, being eye-to-eye, with rich people in America?”

    Isn’t that exactly the problem? Isn’t that Warren and Sanders have been talking about, over and over? We grant wealth far too much respect and power in this country, and it is killing us.

    If these are the people who put her into office – is she going to go against them for the good of the country and the world?

    @Mnemosyne: “Why am I not surprised that you pulled an out of context video pushed by the Daily Caller out of your ass to try and excuse your irrational fear of Harris?”

    And the black left. They don’t like her at all and go into detail. Perhaps instead of a conservative racist white man I am a radical socialist black woman.

    Nah. I’m just a big black bird.

  211. 211.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 12:22 am

    @Chetan Murthy:

    He’s of the group that thinks Barack Obama and Clarence Thomas are exactly the same because Obama didn’t nationalize the banks in 2009.

  212. 212.

    jk

    June 28, 2019 at 12:22 am

    @lamh36:

    It’s exactly how he got into the mess over the segregationist bullshit

    Because Biden is a human gaffe machine, he’ll be getting into these messes every other news cycle if voters are dumb enough to nominate him.

    The @JoeBiden team said that @KamalaHarris is “doing exactly what Trump wants,” per MSNBC.

    Another stupid reaction from Team Biden. He should have simply apologized for his idiotic and indefensible remark, but unfortunately Uncle Joe doesn’t do apologies because he’s as stubborn as a mule.

  213. 213.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 12:23 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Isn’t that exactly the problem? Isn’t that Warren and Sanders have been talking about, over and over? We grant wealth far too much respect and power in this country, and it is killing us.

    If these are the people who put her into office – is she going to go against them for the good of the country and the world?

    Did you read TNC’s valedictory essay/article/whatever about Obama? He said that the POINT of the way Obama ran his campaign and his Presidency, is that he made it SAFE for white people to vote for him. He made it SAFE.

    So some questions for you:

    (1) Do you really think that that is no longer necessary?

    (2) Do you think that somehow, if a person of color must meet that bar, that it immediately disqualifies them from being President? (say, for the reasons you stated).

    Think carefully before answering.

  214. 214.

    MisterForkbeard

    June 28, 2019 at 12:27 am

    @sgrAstar: Yeah. I have a lot of respect for the OG Raven. Raven Onthill is just a lot to type on my phone. ;)

  215. 215.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 12:28 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Ah, yes, the fabled “Black left” that doesn’t want to see a Black woman as president. No one can seem to find more than one or two of them even with a microscope, but Berniebros sure love them. How else would you be able to show that you have A Black Friend who totally agrees with you that racism isn’t a problem anymore?

  216. 216.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 12:29 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    If these are the people who put her into office – is she going to go against them for the good of the country and the world?

    Separately, let me say that the idea that ANY President can go against the Powers That Be and win, is ludicrous. The ONLY chance we have, is to ally with the “sane billionaires” against the “insane billionaires”. And this isn’t ridiculous. If you read the theories about “stationary bandits” vs. “roving bandits”, it will become clear that “stationary bandits” can be convinced to act in the interests of the vast majority, because they’re planning on being around for centuries.

    But maybe you actually -do- believe in revolution. In which case, really, I guess we don’t have a lot to discuss, b/c I suspect most commenters think that revolution gives you Stalin, or The Directory, and not good governance. Political scientists have also weighed-in, and note that revolutions almost never produce good results: what produces good results is incremental change and the rule of law.

    ETA: Stationary bandits can be convinced to invest in -infrastructure-, and once having made the investment, will not want it to be squandered by climate change. Stationary bandits can be convinced that underrepresented minorities are an untapped resource that they should promote. Etc. etc.

  217. 217.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 12:35 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Just out of curiosity, do you know how many people in California were jailed because their kids were truant too many times? You can give me a ballpark figure.

    I should probably warn you that I have an article with the number in it.

  218. 218.

    Raven Onthill

    June 28, 2019 at 12:39 am

    @Chetan Murthy: “Privileged white wealth didn’t think Obama was their man, and they won’t think Kamala Harris is their woman. Nor Sen. Warren, for that matter.”

    They hedge their bets. They would for sure rather have one of their own. But one of their own is not going to be on the ballot, and they know Trump may not win. (And many of them are probably scared by Trump as well.) If they could have Biden, they would, I think. Since they cannot, I think they would much rather have Harris than Warren or – gasp! – Sanders. They’re hoping for a candidate who will leave most of their privilege intact and crack down on the proles, and they can read Harris record to support that view of her.

  219. 219.

    Kay

    June 28, 2019 at 12:40 am

    @Bupalos:

    When I didn’t pay any attention to older people, because I was young and shallow (well- still shallow, but anyway) I used to think they aged at a consistent pace. Like babies. THIS happens at or around 3 months, THIS happens at 6 months. But they don’t. They’ll be going along fine and then there’s a big drop. They can be only a year older but they seem like they aged suddenly. I think Biden had one of those.

    I don’t know this for sure but I think if I were his friend I would tell him it’s time to quit. He had a great run. Don’t get greedy.

  220. 220.

    Jay

    June 28, 2019 at 12:41 am

    @Mandalay:

    A lot of my current hero’s are Digital Warriors/Antifia Dectectives who are outing the 4chan/8chan/QAnon/Nazi/fake persona/astroturf attempts at ratfucking in almost real time.

    Once upon a time it was Russians, now it’s corporate and domestic.

    Too bad the Media is still 2008 on tech. ( CBC’s getting better), but digital fuckery stories are not just informative, but they gather eyeballs and clicks.

  221. 221.

    Martin

    June 28, 2019 at 12:45 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Isn’t that exactly the problem? Isn’t that Warren and Sanders have been talking about, over and over? We grant wealth far too much respect and power in this country, and it is killing us.

    If these are the people who put her into office – is she going to go against them for the good of the country and the world?

    Good lord, someone’s never been to fucking Oakland.

    Let’s talk about a few of the other things California is known for: leading the nation on addressing climate change, leading the nation on abortion rights, leading the nation on manufacturing jobs, leading the nation on agriculture jobs, leading the nation on voting rights, leading the nation on immigrant rights.

    She was atty general of that state and defended all of those things.

  222. 222.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 12:46 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    I think they would much rather have Harris than Warren or – gasp! – Sanders.

    This is comical! I suspect that most people who support Harris would be nearly as happy with Warren, and vice versa. I’m pretty sure that’s true of most commenters here. And for sure I would. I plan to donate equal amounts to both their campaigns (was waiting until after the debates, b/c I wanted to see if they could hold their own against their competitors). Because substantively they’d govern the SAME. They’d bring in the same infrastructure of Democratic folks to run their administration. They’d have the same Congresscritters and Senators. C’mon, this is bullshit.

    Heck, the big difference I see between -Sanders- and Harris/Warren, is that I don’t think he’s going to play well with other Democrats, and by the time he’s thru shitting all over them, he’s going to have trouble working with them to govern.

    But when it comes to what they can -actually- accomplish against the GrOPers, they’re indistinguishable.

  223. 223.

    Lyrebird

    June 28, 2019 at 12:48 am

    @lamh36:

    I loved Joe as VP…but come da fuq on…

    You said it. I really wish Joe would come out with a few more zingers that get the Twitler upset and then STEP ASIDE. I did not like the earlier PFT Comic or whoever was quoted equating Uncle Joe with the Twitler, because the horror of our *resident is just miles beyond any screw-ups of the Veep. But he’s done.

    @Omnes Omnibus: and another round of: you are right as usual!!

    cue Salt n Pepa “step aside sir, sir, would you please step aside?”

  224. 224.

    Frankensteinbeck

    June 28, 2019 at 12:56 am

    @Chetan Murthy:

    But when it comes to what they can -actually- accomplish against the GrOPers, they’re indistinguishable.

    I don’t think this is true. Sanders has made it clear that he has no interest in understanding the system and coming up with solutions for it, and has no accomplishments that prove he can. Warren and Harris are both ready to fight that fight and try to find ways to get as much done as possible.

  225. 225.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 12:59 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    We grant wealth far too much respect and power in this country, and it is killing us.

    Something else too, Raven: Your position is pretty much that racial and ethnic equality in America, must take a back seat to class and economic issues. Let. Me. Tell. You. Something. This will not work anymore. Maybe it was OK in 1932. But it’s no longer OK today.

    And your (I presume) preferred candidate, Bernie, he’s ON RECORD as supporting the continued existence of concentration camps on the border for undocumented and asylum seekers (and these are DISTINCT categories — asylum seekers are protected by treaties to which our country is signatory, so they’re not “illegal” in any sense). Maybe you should go look into this: he said this at his FOX news town hall, and he’s said similar things since.

    Now before you start arguing that he didn’t say “concentration camps”, let me note that he didn’t specify legal representation, visitation by family and social orgs, etc, etc, etc. Instead, he just said “yeah, we’ll keep ’em at the border”. Pen these people up with guards who have unreviewable power over their lives. Concentration camps.

    So sure, if you think that this is a fair exchange for your “economic revolution”, have at it. But I for one will not have it, and I suspect that most Americans agree with me.

  226. 226.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 28, 2019 at 12:59 am

    I see that, not for the first time nor probably, alack, for the last, an old issue of Jabobin magazine has grown fingers and is using them to do shots of Rumpelmintz and type Bernieganda

  227. 227.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 1:00 am

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Sanders has made it clear that he has no interest in understanding the system and coming up with solutions for it

    Oh we agree vehemently. I was just being as generous as I could to good ol’ Wilmer. By the time he’s thru pissing-off every Dem in 57 states (*grin*) he’ll -have- to work with the GrOPers to get anything done.

  228. 228.

    Raven Onthill

    June 28, 2019 at 1:04 am

    @Chetan Murthy: Must we plan on rule by bandits? That seems to me to cede the field before the battle. Besides, some of your “stationary bandits” are squatting on large pools of oil and coal and determined to maintain the value of those pools. If those stay in power it is the literal end of civilization.

    I prefer to speak of transformation rather than revolution. And transformation we need. We talk, talk, talk and nothing changes. But do you really think the changes of the 21st century are going to be minor? We can make changes peacefully or brutally, or simply let them roll over us. Me, I am for peaceful change.

    @Mnemosyne: here’s some of the black left which supports Sanders and dislikes Harris. https://blackagendareport.com/search?key=kamala%20harris. https://twitter.com/SwayslandJordan. https://twitter.com/MalaikaJabali.

  229. 229.

    Jay

    June 28, 2019 at 1:05 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The new mag is quillette.com.

    The problem with the “Intellectual Dark Web”, is there are no lights on.

  230. 230.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 1:06 am

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I’m sure you will be shocked to hear that the reason Harris is being attacked on her truancy program is that is was hugely successful and consisted of many more programs than simply jailing parents. Which is why the Bros are laser focused on one tiny part of the overall initiative and pulled one small clip out of context to try and smear the whole program. The numbers show that Harris’s program substantially reduced absenteeism and truancy in California’s schools, and it was her personal crusade that no one else was really championing at that time.

    https://edsource.org/2019/harris-stance-on-truancy-again-an-issue-as-she-launches-presidential-campaign/608430

  231. 231.

    (((CassandraLeo)))

    June 28, 2019 at 1:06 am

    @Mnemosyne: Well, no surprise he didn’t answer your question. Would be curious to see your link though.

    I’ve been saying for a while that Harris looked to me like the most talented politician amongst the Democratic field, and I feel vindicated after tonight’s debate. She and Warren have already lapped the rest of the field in my estimation.

    edit: LOL you beat me by a few seconds, it looks like

  232. 232.

    Ruckus

    June 28, 2019 at 1:06 am

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Sanders- and Harris/Warren, is that I don’t think he’s going to play well with other Democrats, and by the time he’s thru shitting all over them, he’s going to have trouble working with them to govern.

    First, while he’s running as a democrat, he isn’t one. The only time he claims to be one is when it suits him to run for president. He also running for the senate as an independent, in case he craps out – again.
    Second he doesn’t see that shitting on them is a problem, he thinks they need him far more than he needs them. That’s what drumpf thought. Put him in the now disgraced WH and see how much his pontificating gets him. About the same as it gets drumpf.
    And if I’m understanding you are saying that if he gets elected BS, Harris, Warren would be indistinguishable. Old man yelling at clouds is not close to the same as Harris or Warren.

  233. 233.

    guachi

    June 28, 2019 at 1:08 am

    Made my first donation of the Presidential cycle tonight to Harris.

  234. 234.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 1:09 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Must we plan on rule by bandits?

    May I assume you’re unfamiliar with the work of Mancur Olson? Here’s a quick link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson

    There’s been a lot of work in this area, though since I’m neither a historian nor a political scientist, I can’t actually judge it too well. But for instance, it’s been noted that hilly terrain (with arguably worse soil) is typically cultivated everywhere even marginally possible, b/c the terrain makes it -defensible-. Whereas broad grassy plains, howsoever fertile, ends up being used pastorally, b/c when you hear about the bandits 30mi away, you can round up your cattle and skedaddle, whereas if your wheat is a few weeks away from ripening, you’re -stuck-.

    There’s another word from “stationary bandit”: “government”.

  235. 235.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 1:11 am

    @Ruckus: I’m saying that what is -possible- is the same for each of them. But (from my other comments, and from what I wrote in that comment) I think it’s fair to say that I don’t think he’d accomplish much. And given his views on immigrants, I’d expect some of it to be unacceptably opprobrious.

    I’m not any sort of Wilmer fanboi, Ruckus, don’t you worry. Just tryin’ to be as generous to the old coot as I can be. B/c you don’t gotta be harsh to Wilmer, to see that he’s a shitbird.

  236. 236.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 1:14 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Interesting how the very first anti-Harris article on that page was written by Lee Fang, who works for The Intercept.

    It’s all just one big incestuous mess over there in Bernieland, isn’t it?

    You may also be surprised to hear that Lee Fang is not actually a Black journalist. Shocking, I know.

  237. 237.

    Raven Onthill

    June 28, 2019 at 1:15 am

    @Chetan Murthy: “Your position is pretty much that racial and ethnic equality in America, must take a back seat to class and economic issues”

    Quite the contrary, I believe these are inseparable, intersectional and I would add feminism as well. One cannot address them independently. I am in this in alignment with a long tradition of black and feminist socialists.

    Rather than trying to read my mind, you could just ask me what I think. I am willing to share my opinions.

    At this point, if someone attributes something unconscionable to Sanders I put it in the same box with “But her emails.” The only one of those which I have found any foundation for is his position on firearms. It’s not that they’re necessarily false, but so many of those claims have dissolved on research that I no longer pursue them.

  238. 238.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    June 28, 2019 at 1:16 am

    @(((CassandraLeo))):

    I’ve been saying for a while that Harris looked to me like the most talented politician amongst the Democratic field, and I feel vindicated after tonight’s debate.

    Go Kamala! She rocked it tonight.

  239. 239.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 1:19 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Oh, Christ. The writers of that website proudly make appearances on Russian propaganda network Sputnik:

    https://freedomrider.blogspot.com/2019/06/appearance-on-sputniks-faultlines.html?m=1

    If you’re trying to convince me that support for Sanders is not a giant Russian psy-ops machine, you’re doing a piss-poor job of it.

  240. 240.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 1:21 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    f someone attributes something unconscionable to Sanders

    So I’m assuming you didn’t watch the Fox News townhall clip to which I alluded. So here, I’ll help: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fox-town-hall-immigration_n_5cb50544e4b082aab08ab77a

    “Bernie Sanders Says U.S. Should Build Migrant Facilities ‘Right On The Border’”

    When asked by moderators Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum at his Fox News presidential town hall on where asylum-seeking migrants would go if not the current facilities they’re detained in, Sanders said the United States should build “proper facilities” in states along the U.S.-Mexico border to house them.
    ….
    Earlier this month in Iowa, Sanders spoke about the dangers of opening up the U.S.-Mexico border, saying that “there’s a lot of poverty in this world, and you’re going to have people from all over the world.”

    Why is this unconscionable? Because asylum-seekers are not criminals; our country is signatory to a number of international conventions that prescribe that we treat these people decently. His words are dog-whistle for internment camps, with guards having unreviewable power over internees.

    And he’s for it.

  241. 241.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 1:22 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Phooey. I used a bad word and am in moderation without a moderator in sight. Repeating with a fix for the naughty word:

    Interesting how the very first anti-Harris article on that page was written by Lee Fang, who works for The Intercept.

    It’s all just one big incestuous mess over there in Bernieland, isn’t it?

    You may also be surprised to hear that Lee Fang is not actually a Black journalist. Shocking, I know.

  242. 242.

    Jay

    June 28, 2019 at 1:23 am

    2019 in one tweet https://t.co/9Wd1EPD2Md— Gwen Snyder is uncivil (@gwensnyderPHL) June 28, 2019

  243. 243.

    Aleta

    June 28, 2019 at 1:25 am

    @Jay: I like that saying.

  244. 244.

    plato

    June 28, 2019 at 1:25 am

    .@maddow quotes Sanders on his position on guns.Sanders: "That's a mischaracterization…"Maddow: "That's a quote."— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) June 28, 2019

    Burn. LOL.

  245. 245.

    NotMax

    June 28, 2019 at 1:26 am

    Can haz après-debate general interest thread?

  246. 246.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 1:26 am

    @(((CassandraLeo))):

    I just couldn’t hold the link back anymore. ?

    It’s a pretty balanced article that actually got quotes from activists who both liked and hated what Harris did.

  247. 247.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 1:27 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Quite the contrary, I believe these are inseparable, intersectional and I would add feminism as well.

    I am -shocked- that you can support Sanders after writing the above. He doesn’t give two shits about women’s issues, as evidenced by the way his campaign treated women. A fish rots from the head, dude. From the head. And HE doesn’t agree with you about the inseparability of the struggle for racial equality, and for economic equality. He thinks the former can wait for the latter. It’s been years now, and he still doesn’t have a clue about the daily lives of people of color in America.

    Not a clue.

  248. 248.

    plato

    June 28, 2019 at 1:28 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    At this point, if someone attributes something unconscionable to Sanders I put it in the same box with “But her emails.”

    Read the room, dumbass.

  249. 249.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 28, 2019 at 1:29 am

    Sanders doesn’t do or say anything of meaning ever. What are your priorities, Sen. Sanders? “We need to change everything by doing things instead of not doing things, and then we will have them.” That’s more or less how he answers every question. “Rich people have things, and that’s bad, so it’s time that different people should have things.” What the fuck is that? There’s nothing to it, every single time. There’s no there there. Not even a whisper of a there there. And that’s what he’s proud to say! It’s amazing to me that various people I know to be smart have been falling for this complete sham for 4 solid fucking years.

  250. 250.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 1:29 am

    Alexandra Petri dunks! https://twitter.com/petridishes/status/1144428855870074881

  251. 251.

    Jay

    June 28, 2019 at 1:30 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    Funny how one can use a stock photo, have no blue check mark, and yet be “authentic”, if the account confirms your bia’s.

  252. 252.

    plato

    June 28, 2019 at 1:32 am

    The most searched Democratic candidates after #DemDebate2, Via @GoogleTrends. pic.twitter.com/HTe2vKFNmf— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) June 28, 2019

  253. 253.

    Aleta

    June 28, 2019 at 1:33 am

    The sensation of Sanders’ numbers invisibly falling as he spoke, several times tonight.

  254. 254.

    NotMax

    June 28, 2019 at 1:35 am

    Early reports are that Biden got in 13 minutes of speaking time, the most of anyone on either night.

  255. 255.

    smike

    June 28, 2019 at 1:39 am

    I really like Marianne Moonlight! Ahhhhhhhh, love. Conquer all will love.

  256. 256.

    Aleta

    June 28, 2019 at 1:41 am

    Kashana @kashanacauley
    They should spice up these debates by adding one random white guy who isn’t actually running and make us all guess who it is.

    A panel of people taking turns at guessing.
    Or two panels, the 1% /celebrities vs the commoners.

  257. 257.

    Raven Onthill

    June 28, 2019 at 1:51 am

    Black Agenda Report is respected. Its executive editor has been broadcasting since 1974. It will take more than one interview appearance to persuade me they are simply a Russian foil.

    “substantially reduced absenteeism and truancy in California’s schools” One has to be careful in defending policy with numbers. The examples cited in the HuffPo article were disturbing. They involved things like a child avoiding school because of bullying and another child with sickle-cell anemia. Yes, these children were truant. Their parents ought not have been dragged into court.

    @Chetan Murthy: I have heard of Olson though not studied his work; he strikes me as rather an environmental determinist, which is a position I doubt. The whole idea of government as necessary evil seems to me wrong-headed; I am not an anarchist.

  258. 258.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 1:58 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Black Agenda Report was super defensive about their appearances on Sputnik and complained about “Russophobia” back in 2017:

    https://blackagendareport.com/freedom-rider-putin-trump-and-manafort

    It ain’t one appearance. They’re on Russian state television regularly.

    Again, if you’re trying to convince me that Sanders’s support is not a massive Russian psy-ops campaign, you’re choosing the wrong media outlets.

    I did like the guy on Twitter you linked to. He was at least willing to admit that Harris did well tonight even if he dislikes her policies.

  259. 259.

    Chetan Murthy

    June 28, 2019 at 2:04 am

    Omigod. I’m watching The Daily Show and Trevor has Sen. Harris’s clip where she’s just -lacing- into Pervy Uncle Joe for his stand on busing. Omigod it’s great! So great! VRA, CRA, Equality Act, ERA! So great!

  260. 260.

    Mnemosyne

    June 28, 2019 at 2:11 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    You mean this HuffPo article?

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c995789e4b0f7bfa1b57d2e

    If you’re surprised that Orange County prosecutors overstepped their bounds to drag a Black mother into court because her child’s school didn’t want to give the accommodations her chronically ill daughter needed, you must not know much about Orange County. If Harris’s law hadn’t existed, they would have found another excuse, like authorities did with a mother in Los Angeles who was accused of Munchausen’s by Proxy because she pushed so hard for her asthmatic son to get better treatment. He ended up dying of an asthma attack in foster care.

  261. 261.

    Raven Onthill

    June 28, 2019 at 3:10 am

    Chetan, Sanders was publically pro-choice in 1981, before it was remotely popular to take that position. He also said that the country should hire hundreds of new judges to expedite the processing of the backlog of immigration cases. In the article you linked, even.

    The arguments you are making are the equivalent of “But her emails.”

    Black Agenda Report has a relation with Russian media? It seems I must credit that. The person with the connection seems to be Kimberley, and perhaps she is a Russian asset. I am hesitant to believe it of Ford or Dixon, though I suppose it is possible. (They may just hate the US government so much that they are inclined to believe Kimberley.) Kimberley’s stories wouldn’t run without their say-so. If they have turned into Putin’s tools, it would be a sad end.

    There’s a lot more here, but it’s getting late, and I’m tired. Instead, I’m going to leave you with an article arguing that attending to race and not class helped cost Clinton the election in 2016.

    On the one hand we had the racist and sexist vote, energized by years of attacks on Hillary Clinton and Trump’s promises to the white working class. On the other hand, we had the African-American working class, worn down by years of bipartisan anti-union policies and the crash of 2008, the foreclosures and the years out of work. There was the extensive Russian propaganda to aggravate the conflict; to support the bigots and discourage the African-Americans. In northern states like Wisconsin, the white working class turned out for Trump and the black working class stayed home. – https://adviceunasked.blogspot.com/2018/11/2016-black-working-class-vote.html

  262. 262.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    June 28, 2019 at 3:24 am

    @Raven Onthill:

    Sanders was publically pro-choice in 1981, before it was remotely popular to take that position.

    Really? It was a pretty common view, even among Republicans, in the mid to late 70’s.

  263. 263.

    Ruckus

    June 28, 2019 at 4:35 am

    @Chetan Murthy:
    OK. Wasn’t sure I’d read it right, thanks for the update.

  264. 264.

    Doug R

    June 28, 2019 at 5:18 am

    @Raven Onthill: Truancy is a major red flag that something is SERIOUSLY wrong.
    If parents can’t keep their kid attending school, the state should intervein.
    This argument of yours sounds like the flip side of the bullshit troll argument that Hillary shouldn’t be allowed to defend anyone who might be guilty.
    Sounds sexist and purity pony to me, knock it off.

  265. 265.

    Chris Johnson

    June 28, 2019 at 5:40 am

    @Chetan Murthy: Man that’s dark… and, to me, completely plausible. ‘Stationary bandits’, all the way down. That’s basically just… history.

    I will note however that some of the economic disaster that’s been underway throughout my whole lifetime TURNS people into roving bandits. Stripping people of their resources and livelihoods forces them to become roving bandits. And this was the biggest source of consternation for me about ‘aspirational economics’ like we were advocating during the last election: doing tech-industry style ‘everybody migrate to California where there’s all the work, and learn to code’ is roving banditry by nature.

    For all the backwardness of coal country stagnation, for all the negative baggage carried along with that, the intense committment to ‘stay in one place and hold on to the old days’ at least has the prospect of stationary banditry. Our world has moved so quickly beyond all that, so that the centers of wealth are utterly rootless and can come from anywhere. This is a problem, a bigger problem than people think.

    Didn’t have the language for it until you brought up ‘stationary bandits vs. roving bandits’: thank you :)

  266. 266.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 28, 2019 at 7:40 am

    @Bobby Thomson: Kiss my ass, and go back to fluffing the opportunist.

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