I didn’t watch any of Mueller’s testimony yesterday, except for a couple of snippets. What I saw was damning, but it’s getting meh reviews from America’s foremost theater critics, the establishment press. Here’s Dan Balz’ take, which essentially assumes that impeachment is off the table because of Mueller’s performance.
Am I the only person who thinks that Mueller’s report contained enough evidence to move forward with either impeachment inquiries, or at a minimum some kind of select committee to investigate the charges further? That was obvious when the report dropped, and it’s obvious today. It’s also obvious that polling is a trailing indicator. If Democrats don’t do anything to keep all of Trump’s bad acts and his administration’s bad actors front and center, the polls on impeachment aren’t going to move.
Given that the least familiar place on earth for a lot of Democrats is the inside of a polling booth, you’d think that the House members who are dragging their feet would be concerned about a drop off in enthusiasm, but I can see little evidence of that.
My Congressman, Joe Morelle, who has a relatively safe seat, voted against the recent impeachment resolution, and is having one town hall this recess, on gun violence. Other than his recent vote, the only other utterance I could find was his statement that he’d consider impeachment if there were clear evidence of treason on Trump’s part. He’s probably typical of most of the mushy center of the House Democrats – he’s ducking and hiding and hoping it will all go away. Sorry, Joe, it’s only going to get worse.
Edited to add: Did Mueller have to give a performance like this to get the right amount of attention:
raven
It’s been three years since I’m knockin on your door. . .
rikyrah
You should go to the Town Hall, and ask why working with a Hostile Foreign Power against this country doesn’t qualify as TREASON.
MisterForkbeard
@rikyrah: And also why obstucting an investigation into said working with a hostile foreign power and/or possibly treason isn’t worth impeachment.
Chip Daniels
Mueller’s message from his report to now is the same: He found plenty of evidence, but Congress needs to do the heavy lifting of removing a President.
Patricia Kayden
Democrats are weak. That’s about it. They’re squandering an opportunity to use impeachment hearings as a mechanism to put Trump’s dirty laundry in front of the American people. It comes with subpoena power and the ability to get their hands on Trump’s precious taxes. There’s little downside.
MisterForkbeard
To contradict Dan Balz, the performance I saw after the meeting (Pelosi/Schumer/Schiff) indicates that impeachment is probably going to happen, but when it happens depends on a few things:
1) If the court cases come through then we can and will publicly investigate loudly. This is basically impeachment inquiry, though it may not be officially called that
2) If Trump caves on some of the requests and stops stonewalling, they can investigate some of that information loudly.
Basically, they’re waiting to see if they can get more ammunition because they only get one shot. If they CAN’T get more ammo, then they’ll start banging drums loudly on what we already know: Trump obstructed justice into a national security investigation and needs to be removed.
jl
A commenter yesterday, I think, said that gossip from House Dem caucus meetings is that center Dems in districts that Trump won in 2016 are scared of impeachment, and Pelosi is not sure she can get their votes. I’ve been very frustrated with Pelosi’s very slow and cautious approach and her explanations as to why. However, if it is true that she is not sure she has those skeerdy and spooked House Dems to vote for impeachment, that is a damn good reason to go slow, get more evidence, try to increase popular support, etc. I think there is a legitimate debate over whether it would be wise to impeach an obvious crooked and incompetent and perhaps unsound president when almost no chance to get a conviction in the Senate. But trying to impeach and failing because some members of the Dem caucus won’t go along seems bad all the way around.
I heard a few interviews with Dem House members, and from what I heard, there does seem to be ‘magic bullet’ syndrome among them For example, Jackie Speier said gosh golly gee we gotta get those tax returns, We’ll see all sorts of bad stuff in those tax returns that will get peoples’ attention. Then she talked through an implausibly long list of bad things Trump’s tax returns would show that would slam dunk wake the country up.
I think Democratic office holders have to make the case themselves directly to their constituents. They can’re rely on a damning report, or damning testimony, or tax returns, or anything else, making the case for them.
Amir Khalid
Sit tight, take hold. Thunder Road!
(Well, someone had to say it.)
Yarrow
Someone should have front paged yesterday’s Dem leadership presser. It’s clear they’re getting their ducks in a row and doing everything they can so when they make their move they have the best chance of it going well. Nancy SMASH said they need to have the strongest possible case. Schiff echoed her. They’re doing a lot of work but a lot of it is the boring kind of work that doesn’t make headlines and certainly doesn’t create dramatic optics to make the Chuck Todds of the world happy.
ljt
Betty Cracker posted this video from Rep. Katie Hill in the morning open thread. It’s the best explanation I’ve seen for the current status, and reassures me that the cautious approach is not weak. As she says, we only have one shot to do this.
Miss Bianca
@Yarrow: What you said.
ETA: Glad you’re back. I’ve said that already, right?
Cheryl Rofer
Thank you, Mistermix! I’ve been thinking something similar all morning.
IT’S UP TO US, DAMMIT!
We can moan and piss and hide in a corner and hope someone else will do something about it, but we are the citizens, we are the voters, and dammit we have to act like it’s our country that is at stake!
So call and write your Members of Congress. Demostrate in the streets. GO TO TOWN HALLS DURING THE RECESS. Disrupt them if you have to in order to get your point across.
And stop whining about “the Democrats” not doing enough. You’re a Democrat – DO SOMETHING!
rikyrah
Dan Pfeiffer (@danpfeiffer) Tweeted:
I honestly can’t tell if the @washingtonpost sending an actual theater critic to cover the theater of politics is the most or least self-aware thing a political media outlet has ever done https://t.co/WlJTg1iPCz https://twitter.com/danpfeiffer/status/1154441060782731264?s=17
ET
I think the content of Muller’s testimony would be enough but many in the media (and in Congress) were waiting for the type of hype to make them feel comfortable going for impeachment. I don’t think it did that. But if you were expecting that you haven’t been paying attention to Muller and how he operates. He was never going to be that guy.
I did see someone on MTF Daily that said something I agreed with. Why didn’t someone ask a question of Muller framed around what Barr said after the report came out when they were spinning the complete vindication line. Ask Muller something like: In light of AG Barr saying he expected an indictment if there was enough evidence, can you explain why you didn’t indict.
I know that he said elsewhere the OLC decision came to play, but I wanted a bit more pointed push back on that spin. Even if it was only for the record.
jl
@rikyrah: I guess they get some brownie points for increased honesty about the quality of their reporting on that particular beat.
Yarrow
@Miss Bianca: Thanks and yes, I think so.
@rikyrah: I really love calling our political reporters and pundits “theater critics.” It definitely highlights on of the problems with them.
ETA: I know this is an actual theater critic. I’ve seen others call political reporters theater critics and that’s what I was referring to.
Timurid
The scariest thing about yesterday was the MSM hoisting the black flag and abandoning the last pretense that they’re not all in for Trump.
Elizabelle
@Yarrow: Agreed. Excellent press conference. Go to the source. Don’t let the “experts” on twitter drive the car.
ETA: the link: C-Span. 27 minutes, but goes fast:
Speaker Pelosi Press Conference With Committee Chairs
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) held a press conference Judiciary Committee Chair Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), Intelligence Committee Chair Adam Schiff (D-CA), and Oversight Committee Chair Elijah Cummings (D-MD). They discussed the day’s testimony by former special counsel who conducted a two-year investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?463006-1/speaker-pelosi-impeachment-depends-the-facts-law
Ben Cisco
Aside from reading this blog, I’ve mostly avoided the news (I don’t watch it on TV in any event); I’ve found it to be overly depressing during a summer that has already had its share of disappointments. I did watch the presser, and Maddow’s show last night. I feel that the work is getting done, albeit much more slowly than I and many others would like. Those reps in Trump districts may just as well get ready for a fight; there is no amount of ducking and/or covering that’s going to make things any easier on them. WHEN (not if) those hearings start, EVERY Dem is going to be a target. Even if there weren’t going to be hearings, EVERY Dem is going to be a target. Looking for safety when there is none to be found is non-optimal. Time to nut up.
John S.
@MisterForkbeard:
And yet, just a couple of hours ago, Schiff was waffling on impeachment and said the only thing that will remove Trump from office is to vote him out. He also made it sound like impeachment was futile if the Senate won’t take up the proceedings.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/schiff-2020-election-only-way-trump-remove-office
Amir Khalid
@Yarrow:
I agree. Mueller’s testimony was unsatisfying as courtroom drama, but to judge it as such, as some pundits did, was to miss its workaday purpose: to lay as solid a foundation as possible for a House investigation and vote to impeach Trump.
TenguPhule
@Chip Daniels:
Congress then turns towards the voters and says “Make us do our job”
As motivators go, it needs work.
smintheus
@ET: He said that Trump can be charged with obstruction of justice after Trump leaves office but not before. What more do Democrats need? The first article of impeachment against Richard Nixon was obstruction of justice.
TenguPhule
@MisterForkbeard:
This is the part that I don’t believe is gonna happen. It will be more excuses and only go downhill from there.
zhena gogolia
@ET:
He wouldn’t say word one about Barr.
smintheus
@John S.: If Senate Republicans refused to act upon an impeachment referral from the House, they would be toast in the 2020 election…particularly since such a referral would include a count of obstruction of justice.
Elizabelle
@John S.: Did you watch the CNN clip embedded in the TPM item?
Because Schiff says, re impeachment, “I’m not there yet, but I may get there.”
Did you know that? I think a lot of the House leadership’s actions are about timing, and building support.
I would love events to turn so that the Senate vote is not as “futile” as we are all assured. A lot can happen in the upcoming months. Investigations are underway. Court case decisions are imminent.
Miss Bianca
@John S.:
Let’s see…what do you actually disagree with, here? Seems to me like Schiff is being pretty pragmatic. Do I wish he was saying, “Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead”? Sure. But do I happen to agree with him that the only way to actually REMOVE Trump from office is to vote him out? Also sure. I think we need to do both, frankly – impeach *and* vote him out. But not sure how to get there except keep on keepin’ on with making sure people are able to vote, and also keep compiling the evidence.
TenguPhule
@Amir Khalid:
Then they’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.
Chyron HR
@John S.:
HOW DARE HE SAY THINGS THAT ARE SELF-EVIDENTLY TRUE!!!!!!
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
The House has about 2 months left to pull the trigger, unless the Speaker intends to abandon the Congressional Christmas recess to do their damn job.
/still waiting, but hope fading
The Moar You Know
Not even half of California’s Democratic House members support starting an inquiry, per the LA Times poll done in June, never mind the actual impeachment process.
I’d hate to think of what the numbers are in the rest of the nation if you can’t even get a bare majority in CA on board.
If you don’t have the votes, you don’t have them, and Dems don’t have them. Wish, rant, yell, scream, kick the floor, do whatever, but we don’t have the votes.
rikyrah
Andrea González-Ramírez (@andreagonram) Tweeted:
It’s official. Gov. Ricardo Rosselló is resigning, effective Friday, August 2. He is the first governor to step down in the history of Puerto Rico. #RickyRenuncia
rikyrah
NEW: 16 US Marines arrested on human smuggling and drug allegations at base in Southern California, military officials say. https://t.co/DfLZe5z6pA
— NBC News (@NBCNews) July 25, 2019
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@MisterForkbeard: I also suspect the Dems would rather Trump face justice in a court of law out of office because the Senate will never impeach a president (I mean Jesus Christ, if a Union war vet majorly controlled Senate couldn’t impeach Andrew Johnson then nothing is impeachable in the eyes of the Senate) and they don’t want Trump claiming double jeopardy.
I am thinking the Pundits screaming “Dem’s Powned” is going to backfire; that makes Mueller’s testimony admissible into the Conservative Information Bubble were some people are going to notice the discrepancies.
joel hanes
@raven:
Thanks. That’s an ear-worm I’m glad to have today.
Gravenstone
@John S.:
This is true, regardless of any impeachment proceedings in the House. We all know this Senate won’t vote to convict, and without that conviction Trump is not removed from office via the mechanism of impeachment. Given the timelines involved, the ballot box becomes the only other recourse. This in no way absolves people of the responsibility to speak to their Representatives and urge them towards impeachment. Those hearings will have a key role in turning people out against Trump, potentially demoralizing (if not actually swaying) Republican voters and in highlighting Republican obstruction overall. Ideally, we have a mortally wounded president, multiple publicly compromised Republican Congressmen and Senators and an extremely motivated Democratic voter base.
Mike in NC
That guy Dan Balz is the new David Broder, and loves the ‘both sides do it’ crap.
MomSense
I have a question for the group. Why do you think we aren’t seeing massive demonstrations against trump like we saw in Puerto Rico? There were some vigils against the concentration camps at our southern border, but I felt very frustrated that they weren’t better attended.
I’m leaning toward fatigue and overload as the reason we aren’t mobilizing for impeachment and unfortunately I think the constant negativity about Pelosi and the Democrats is only making the situation worse.
matt
A whole lot of loyal Dems right now, bless their hearts, are spending their time and energy defending the inactivity of leadership. Those folks would change their minds instantly if the Dem leaders changed course.
raven
@joel hanes: If I can inspire just one person. . .
Elizabelle
@Mike in NC: My take too.
Elizabelle
@matt: Inactivity? Tell us more, matt.
The Moar You Know
@John S.: That’s not waffling; that’s how the process works. Since the Senate will neither convict nor remove him no matter what the House comes up with, the 2020 elections are the only shot.
Felanius Kootea
@Patricia Kayden: Democrats want people to *make* them do it. Go to their townhalls, scream and yell at them and force their hand on impeachment. “Leading” by being pushed. Sigh.
artem1s
@Patricia Kayden: Bullshit. Democrats understand the public’s inability to focus on anything that is complicated and boring. This is what Pelosi has been trying to get across to those screaming for impeachment for months.
Congressional hearings are drier than a one hit shut out. The average American can’t sit thru a baseball game anymore without home runs flying all over the place, constants visual stimulation from the scoreboard, fireworks, and theme music.
IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS WILL BE BORING. And the media will piss and moan the entire time they are going on because they aren’t good theater. If you can accept that the spin will be – “nothing to see here” – even if the Dolt does go out and shoot someone on 5th Avenue, then fine. But don’t blame Democrats because responsible people won’t stand up on their chairs and scream “I SAW DONALD TRUMP CONSORTING WITH THE
DEVILPUTIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” It will be boring and tedious and in the end Dolt will stand up and declare himself exonerated. This isn’t a reason to NOT have impeachment hearings. But please accept that they are what they are. There will be no scene with Schiff screaming “AND YOU’RE OUT OF ORDER, YOU’RE OUT OF ORDER, YOU’RE OUT OF ORDER. No silver haired Paul Newman from The Verdict pulling gotcha questions out of his ass. There may be a very heart felt scene where we all stand up in respect asAtticus FinchThe Constitution passes, but the GOP will still declare Hillary guilty of something, something and vote to execute what is left of our voting rights. And the average deplorable won’t have a clue what it all means and will still blame the Dems when their 401K bottoms out.If you can’t handle the disappointment of Mueller’s testimony, you can’t handle an impeachment hearing.
J R in WV
@Yarrow:
Good to see you around again.
I agree that Schiff did the best job of anyone yesterday! I didn’t see the leadership press conference in the afternoon. But Schiff was able to ask questions that Mueller was able to answer clearly and in the way Schiff wanted to hear. Between Schiff’s questions and Mueller’s answers, the Intelligence Committee hearing was full of great information.
I continue to believe Pelosi has a grand strategic vision of how to pace the Impeachment hearings up to the election next fall. Today was an early shot across the bow of the opposition, a chance to see how the Russo-publican party intends to play defense, and how the American Democratic party can best attack the Russo-publicans.
I had a Dr appointment yesterday, the stress of which took a lot out of me.
So…
Went to bed early, avoided the later news shows we often watch. Slept around the clock, feeling a little better today. Getting old sucks.
The Moar You Know
@MomSense: You asked for my opinion. Demonstrations are the second best way to pretend that you are doing something when in reality you are accomplishing nothing. Emailing members of Congress is the very best way, soon to be supplanted, no doubt, by posting on their Twitter feeds. Utterly useless.
You know what got us out of Vietnam? It wasn’t a solid decade of demonstrations attended by millions of people. It was an election.
MagdaInBlack
@Cheryl Rofer:
Thank You Cheryl. Ive been having that conversation for several weeks. Stop looking for a savior. There are no saviors here, there’s just us and a massive voter turn out.
And then, the crime scene clean up crew, because we’re still stuck with the packed courts and all the other damage that has been done. As Adam has said, we are not going back to how it was.
Gonna need a lot of brooms to clean up after these elephants.
zhena gogolia
@artem1s:
Great post! Co-sign!
Jay
@MomSense:
Puerto Rican’s have had their economy hollowed out by corruption and colonialism for decades, have relied on being economic migrants to survive, for generations, suffered a massive death toll and destruction from the hurricane, were abandoned in the aftermath by “The State”, and the festering corrupt cesspool that is their Legislature was completely exposed, and was laughing at them.
Most of the ‘Merkins that you need to take to the streets against Wussolinni, are busy watching The Batchelor and getting ready for their summer vacations. Wussolinni’s evil doesn’t effect them much, other than in the ego.
Ben Cisco
@artem1s:
Basically what they did yesterday. Great point
tobie
@J R in WV: I listened to the whole hearing yesterday with rapt attention since I was driving a moving truck for 6 hours and was grateful to have something gripping to listen to to pass the time. The only place I lost NPR reception was 10 minutes from my country home. No wonder people are so ill informed in the sticks. Anyhoo…Schiff was able to phrase his questions in such a way to have maximum effect. That was great to hear. I also think the members of the intelligence committee did really well in busting the myth that there was no evidence of collusion. Peter Welch made a point of distinguishing between finding evidence and establishing a crime.
One question I had for the BJ commentariat: can you open an impeachment inquiry without having drafted the articles of impeachment yet? I wasn’t sure about procedure.
Miss Bianca
@artem1s:
BOOM! Now *there’s* a mic drop, just like all these Disappointed Dems have been clamoring for! Why the hell couldn’t Schiff and Pelosi have just said *that*, huh?//
dww44
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Just one more way that Congressional Dems are skirting their actual constitutional duty and not doing the right but very hard thingl. Surely they are aware enough to realize that they are ONLY playing into the apparently correct meme that the Democratic party leadership is weak and gutless. Talk is cheap. Action is not. Stop with holding the finger up to see which way the wind is blowing. As Kay said in an earlier thread. Do Something. Not Impeaching is not “something”. Passing bills that will never see the light of day in the Senate don’t cut it.
Yarrow
@MomSense: I don’t think we’re seeing demonstrations because we haven’t reached some critical point. What that point is, I don’t know. Sometimes the “final straw” incident that gets people protesting seems very small but it’s on top of so many other things that people just decide they can’t take it anymore. I don’t think we’re there yet.
Also, I don’t think protests in the US do all that much, at least not in recent years, but that may just be my take.
oldgold
With apologies to T. S. Eliot’s The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock: Do I dare to impeach?
Felanius Kootea
@artem1s: Democracy as reality TV. Just who is it that can’t handle the “disappointment of Mueller’s testimony” though?
ETA: The folks I’ve spoken to had a different take on the testimony from the pundits. Maybe we should have a little more faith in the public? Just a little.
JoyceH
So they’re going on recess. That means their constituents don’t have to take a plane ride to get in their faces. So GET IN THEIR FACES!
If the House does nothing, the history books will say, “Trump committed all these crimes and Congress did nothing.” But! If the House impeaches and the Senate refuses to convict, the history books will say, “Trump committed all these crimes and the Democrats in the House voted for impeachment, but the Republicans in the Senate refused to convict.”
And one HOPES the history books will go on to say, “And this marked the end of the Republican Party.”
And let’s face it, impeachment inquiries could uncover enough ‘White House horrors’ that even the Republicans will either vote to convict or push Trump to resign, just to save their own skins.
But what I don’t want to see is that all the corrupt, cruel, and incompetent crap Trump has pulled will become precedent for ‘not enough to impeach’.
rikyrah
@Jay:
And, they saw the Governor repeatedly kiss up to Dolt45, which couldn’t have helped his case, all the while, Dolt45 and his policies were killing their people.
Frankensteinbeck
@MomSense:
We are. A whole lot of people came out in pink hats at the beginning of his presidency. There have been more demonstrations. Many, many more demonstrations. Republicans are running, sometimes literally, from town halls because of the angry protestors.
McConnell and Trump don’t care. We have to turn that anger to the ballot box. In 2018 we did, and I see no reason we won’t again in 2020.
Haroldo
@rikyrah:
It’s really weird – so many incredibly horrible things are happening in this country and around the world these days and this is the thing that just deflated me. It’s what I’ve known to be true, but there is such an undercurrent, or I should now say former undercurrent, of fascism in this country. I really fear that a not-insubstantial portion of the military will be used for its jackboots. (I hope this is just a temporary bout of pessimism.)
rikyrah
Why Mitch McConnell’s striking unpopularity matters
07/25/19 10:00 AM—UPDATED 07/25/19 12:05 PM
By Steve Benen
The latest national Fox News poll gauged public attitudes on a variety of prominent political figures, and it’s worth noting who finished last.
Donald Trump: 45% favorable, 51% unfavorable
Nancy Pelosi: 39% favorable, 50% unfavorable
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: 34% favorable, 41% unfavorable
Ilhan Omar: 26% favorable, 37% unfavorable
Mitch McConnell: 25% favorable, 47% unfavorable
To a very real extent, conducting national polling on the popularity of first-term congresswomen, seven months into their careers on Capitol Hill, seems a little odd. That said, the president has invested considerable energy into attacking Reps. Ocasio-Cortez and Omar in recent weeks, desperately trying to convince the public that they and their allies are anti-American communists who support terrorism.
And yet, they both have higher favorability ratings than Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.
In recent years, the conventional wisdom in Republican circles has been that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s public standing is so poor, it’s effectively toxic. According to a recent book from Cliff Sims, a former aide in Trump’s White House, the president told then-House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) a couple of years ago, in reference to Pelosi, “Have you seen her? She’s a disaster. Every time she opens her mouth another Republican gets elected.”
With this in mind, GOP candidates and campaigns obsessively try to tie Democrats – even in races that have literally nothing to do with the U.S. House – to the San Francisco congresswoman.
In the Fox News poll, Pelosi may not be winning any popularity contests, but her favorability rating did reach a new high.
All of which raises the prospect of a new political dynamic.
To be sure, I don’t imagine McConnell cares in the slightest about poll results like these. Kentucky hasn’t elected a Democratic senator in a generation, and McConnell has won re-election before despite his unpopularity.
Miss Bianca
@dww44: Do Something.!
Like what? All these people screaming for the Dems to “Do Something!!” never say what they actually think the Dems *should* be doing beyond what they ARE doing – starting investigations, calling witnesses (who, following their corrupt Dear Leader’s lead, are refusing), dealing with the courts to compel people to testify, etc. All of which takes time, and is boorrrriinng. So tell us what, in your obviously expert opinion, they *should* be doing. That Sergeant-at-Arms who is, I believe, the only actually armed individual the House has at its disposal, is sure going to be busy, isn’t he, going after every single member of this administration who’s broken the law? Yeah, it will make GREAT theater tho’, and it will be DOING SOMETHING, even if all it accomplishes is to get the media clucking about how UNCIVIL the Democrats are.
Felanius Kootea
@Frankensteinbeck: Thank you! I still have my placards ready from the last march I went to and turnout was immense. The big difference is that Governor Ricardo Rossello has a sense of shame. Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell have none. Resignation is not part of their language. Power is the only language they understand.
Even if the House impeaches and the Senate by some miracle votes to convict, Trump will try to dig in. Rooting him out is not going to be easy but it will eventually happen because no one man is bigger than an entire country of hundreds of millions of people.
dww44
@dww44: This is the conclusion that Susan Glasser writing in The New Yorker reached:
This explains why those who voted for Dems are running out of patience with the stalling in the House. We are so very afraid that that is what the leadership is also trying to do. Are they going to be as timid as Mueller or are they going to put their reputations and offices on the line and do the right thing? They surely knew what an enormous responsibility they were handed last November?
trnc
@MisterForkbeard:
I agree that that is likely the reasoning (No. 1, at least – I’m don’t think DT would cave on the finances because everyone knows that’s a house of cards), but the problem is that if the federalist judges have their way, we won’t get the info that we should. At that point, probably several months from now, how do we go back and say it’s based on the Mueller report and testimony?
I was on board with waiting until his testimony yesterday because I felt it would explain more clearly that DT was not cleared of wrongdoing and the administration lied when it said he was. I think it did, so it’s time.
CaseyL
We’re not seeing massive demonstrations comparable to those in Puerto Rico because nothing short of a general strike that brings the economy to a grinding halt will have any effect at all.
And we’re not going to get a general strike on that scale. We just aren’t. Personal finances are too chancy; too many people will do a cost/benefit analysis and conclude that an action which loses them their jobs, their homes, and everything else isn’t worth the risk because the benefit is undefined.
Jay
@The Moar You Know:
It wasn’t an election that caused the US to bail on the South Vietnam project.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamization
Raven
@The Moar You Know: sheeeeet
gvg
@MomSense: Because we don’t think demonstrations work. I went to some but….they didn’t get results. Also before Trump I have seen a LOT of demonstrations, many of them for trivial reasons. There were decades after the Vietnam war Civil rights era where there were ALWAYS some people demonstrating and it really seemed to me that it was kind of a nostalgia about if they had only been born earlier, they would have been as heroic…so way before Bush and Iraq, I was pretty detached from demonstrations. I was encouraged at first by the huge crowds against Trump but it really didn’t seem to help much. Sometimes calling Congressmen did, and get out the vote helped so…I don’t think the protests matter. Now big fund raising for ACLU and planned parenthood and various immigrant protection organizations…right now I think lawsuits help more. What I really want is a way to put some crooked congressmen in jail and hurt monetarily the people I think are selling out the country for money. If McConnel went to jail, I think things could change in a hurry. I’d also like to see individual ICE managers and agents arrested for kidnapping and not following the laws.
I think there is some law Congressmen can’t be arrested in Congress or when it’s in session, but corrupt Congressmen have been arrested before, so could someone who knows tell me what the actual law is?
the Conster
@smintheus:
Impeachment doesn’t remove him. Do you know that?
rikyrah
I’m in tears reading this thread. My heart had been sad , thinking about losing this archive of Black American humanity.. just hurt.
This is why you have to have Black faces…self respecting Black faces, in all kinds of spaces.
Amir Khalid
@TenguPhule:
Maybe you have an idea of what, and precisely how much of it, House Democrats should be doing. It might be a good idea to share your thoughts on that with the rest of us.
Miss Bianca
@CaseyL: The populace in general is much poorer, much more concentrated, and *much smaller* in Puerto Rico than in the continental US. I think the sheer scale of the Contiguous 48 works against the efficacy of demonstrations.
Plus, however badly we think we’re hurting here – and I, and a lot of people I know, are hurting – it’s nothing compared to Puerto Rico. How’s the old song go? “When you ain’t got nothing, you got nothing to lose”.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@tobie:
Yes, there’s a vote to open an impeachment inquiry and then Judiciary drafts the Articles of Impeachment and votes on them. Then they are voted on by the full House. That’s they way it was done on both the Nixon(he resigned prior to the House vote) and Clinton impeachments.
Of course, we don’t have to votes to authorize sending it to Judiciary.
rikyrah
Nancy Pelosi can count votes.
She does not have them.
Now, if you live in one of those R districts that flipped to D in 2018…then, maybe you out to take a trip to your local Congressperson’s Office during this recess, and inform them that you’d like to see Impeachment hearings open.
Get a group of friends and go there. Are they having a Town Hall – show up? And make sure that you and your friends talk about impeachment. And, that, YOU KNOW that The Turtle will NOT vote to convict, but you want the Impeachment Hearings and vote anyway.
Chief Oshkosh
@rikyrah: You really do a great job in bringing all of these stories here (and with links!).
Thank you.
Eolirin
Impeachment is only going to matter in so far as it affects the next election. It’s political theater as long as the Senate is McConnell’s.
That doesn’t mean don’t do it, but it only has value as a political act designed to bolster turn out of base democratic voters. The Republicans will not be swayed by any of this, and their closed media environment will isolate them from it in any event.
Impeachment proceedings aren’t going to change anything that’s happening or stop any of the abuses that are going on. Only winning the next election will. Literally nothing else matters.
And really, we need a trifecta or nothing is going to get done. So we need to win the senate, somehow, and hold the house. I don’t think it’s nearly as clear as some people make it out as to whether formal impeachment proceedings hurt or help in accomplishing that. If it helps we should do it, if it doesn’t, we shouldn’t.
the Conster
@Miss Bianca:
Apparently no one reads news reports of the lawsuits in courts, as if the doing something doesn’t require any affirmation by the courts of the House’s Article I powers to subpoena. I guess Pelosi should just citizens arrest Trump and Pence and install herself as President.
Ben Cisco
@MomSense: @Frankensteinbeck: There have been plenty, and continue to be. Many of them have been covered here on BJ. MSM, not so much. But that is another problem altogether.
SenyorDave
Whatever happened with:
1. The cases that Mueller referred out to other courts (I thought there were about ten of them)
2. Investigations of the Trump Organization by the state of New York
Can someone explain why someone like Allan Weissenberg, the CFO of the TRump Organization, isn’t subpoenaed by Congress? He would not have any executive privilege, just find some pretense to get him up there. I reported to a CFO for years, they know where all the bodies are buried.
Peale
@Amir Khalid: Honestly, I wake up in the morning wishing Congress had its own jails to hold people in when executive branch officials are caught lying or stalling, and maybe executed three or four perjurers just to make a point. I know that its a horrible precedent and would be used against Dems in the future. But I really wish the lying by well-heeled officials and pretending that that is O.K. would stop and I think they really won’t get it until we cut out some tongues.
MomSense
@Frankensteinbeck:
I don’t think demonstrations will sway trump, McConnell, or any other GOP members of Congress but they are important tools for recruiting volunteers and for keeping people engaged and not depressed.
The women’s marches were a long time ago. I do think the energy is waning and it’s important to deal with that.
Jay
@Felanius Kootea:
No, he doesn’t have a sense of shame. He has a sense of self preservation. He can leave the island and go on wingnut welfare, ReThug grifting on the mainland now.
Had he not resigned, the violence he had authorized against the protestors was going to lead to tumbrel rides.
After beating up Rickey Martin’s film crew, the Puerto Rican undercover OPS teams were doxxed by protestors, and they fled the Colony to the safety of Miami. Puerto Rican cops have had to sleep and eat in offices and barracks because their neighbors know who they are.
When the Govenor put Mounted Police on the streets to punish protestors, the following night Puerto Rican cowboys took to the streets, out numbered them and pushed them back. Motorcycle cops were met by Motorcycle clubs. When the cops told protestors that the Puerto Rican Constitution went “to bed” at 10pm, they started reading the entire Constitution to the cops, starting at 9pm.
Haroldo
Has there been any word on the Immp?
matt
@Elizabelle: Hey, you go ahead and have a great day!
Jay
zhena gogolia
@Haroldo:
Not that I’ve seen.
dww44
@Miss Bianca: @Miss Bianca: Since you were in this earlier thread, I’m sure you read this, but I will respond with what Kay said in that thread because she is so very good with this.
I, like many others, have sorta had it with ” we must wait on the Mueller report”, then “we must wait on Mueller himself” or, ” Trump is not complying with our written request, so next we will send another harsher letter, and then maybe we will subpoena.”
In that Dem press conference after the hearing yesterday, it was evident to me that even Pelosi recognized the Democratic base’s (or are we the extreme left?) frustration with the perceived stalling on their part. She implied that the process won’t be “endless”. That’s the first time that she has seemed to be aware of the seething anger that’s building out here away from D.C. Time is of the essence.
Kay also said this in that same thread:
Elie
I may be way off base here, but my assessment of Mueller’s behavior is that he is in the early phase of dementia, and that that made his appearance essential but fraught. He may have known during this two year period that his cognitive state was declining — hence his stated need to “speed the completion of the report” — which was in relation to the question of why he did not pursue a subpoena of the President. If this is true, he was pretty trapped. If he had not testified now, while he still had some mental acuity, he would have diminished capability to defend it later down the road. This was his best shot but also explains why he did not want to stray too far from the actual wording of the report since he does not have the ability to smoothly detail the components of the decisions he and his team made. I suspect many of his closest assistants have also known of his condition. Once he was appointed to be special counsel, he had no way to acknowledge his condition without destroying the credibility of all his team had worked so hard to complete. The whole report would have been thrown out as the product of an impaired leader. It explains the narrowness of the scope and unwillingness to provide reasoning behind key findings — and omissions. Although his reputation has been somewhat damaged, it is not as damaged as it would be if he acknowledged having a condition that affected his cognition. His very eccentric and narrow approach is the outcome of his wanting to finish the work with credibility and without exposing such a profound impairment. Anyway, its my take. His confusion early in the hearing just jarred me and made me think the question: “How long has he been like this?” I don’t think that being aged alone accounts for it. There are many people well into their 80s who are sharp as tacks and can detail complex reasoning, cause and effect and keep track of things. Uh-uh…. Nope. Something is and was wrong and he did his best not to jeopardize the report results without outing his hugely impactful condition. My two cents anyway.
James E Powell
@jl:
This makes sense, except the Democrats are going very slow on getting more evidence and they’re working very hard to tamp down popular support. At times they disparage the very notion.
Yarrow
@rikyrah:
Yep. This.
The are the Reps who are hesitant to support impeachment and who must be convinced. They don’t want to be voted out and we don’t want them to be voted out. We lose them, we lose the House and all bets are off. I’m glad they’re being smart about their vote. Anyone who is a constituent in one of these districts needs to show up and let their Reps know they support impeachment. Right now, call your Reps.
I called my Dem Rep today. Expressed my support for impeachment. Has everyone here called theirs?
James E Powell
@Ben Cisco:
This is where I think the average person has a better understanding of things than bubble-dwelling, risk averse politicians. Going after Trump is the only way to depress his support and the best way to hold onto your seat in the house.
tobie
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Thanks for that info. I wish Schiff were on the Judiciary Committee. I can’t think of a more capable member of the House when it comes to inquiries. A propos Nixon: I’ve been clearing out my folk’s house this summer and just found two copies of the New York Times from Aug 9, 1974 wit the headline, “Nixon Resigns.” I think I’ll frame one to try to keep my spirits up.
Elie
I think that for some of the Democratic leadership, (who probably know of Mueller’s problem), it was “get from him what we can now, cause later he is going to be even more impaired”. This way they could at least lock down the basic report findings. Otherwise they know they couldn’t call him back later no matter how much that would make the most sense. Also, no one else on Mueller’s team could be substituted. He is it and fading fast. If my theory is true, the Democrats are making the best of a shitty situation and trying to salvage what they can…
Miss Bianca
@the Conster:
By God, that’s Doing Something, all right!
Martin
I got a bit of heat in 2016 for saying that I was taking my energy off of national politics and putting it on state issues. This is why.
Effectively, California has superceded federal policy by using its economic power. This isn’t nullification – it’s telling automakers that CA has the power to regulate its own markets, and is willing to block sales and registration of their cars in state. Oh, and we can get 16 other states to go along with us.
The federal government is a failed state, and will remain so as long as Trump is in power. We can’t fix that directly, not until the next election, so all of the action will be at the state level. This is what that looks like. As for states like Ohio going in the other direction:
There’s not much that can be done there. The new CA standards might affect jobs in Ohio given that Ohio is not providing incentives for automakers to follow California (my Honda was made in Ohio, fwiw), but the long game is going to be an economic one. Slavery crippled the souths economy by blocking investments that should have been made which were deemed unnecessary due to all that free labor – the war just compounded the problem. Compare land grant universities across the south with comparable ones in the north and west, and that gap has persisted for over a century. CA has half a million clean energy jobs, and these incentives CA is offering – they’ll apply in CA. Build out of EV charging networks, R&D in state, etc. Ohio loses out on all of that. And 10 years from now, when the market has fully shifted, CA will have infrastructure and Ohio won’t, and CA will be reaping the economic benefits.
We’d all prefer these be federal issues, but they aren’t. Now it’s a competition between states that was initiated by short-sighted voters. I can’t change the decision made in 2016, so I might as well help my state win and hope that we win so dominantly that national voters demand that the feds support our efforts.
trollhattan
@the Conster: @Miss Bianca:
I want her to go all Phil Sheridan on him. Am guessing he’s afraid of horses.
Felanius Kootea
@Jay: You are absolutely right. Self preservation for Rossellini meant resigning (I still think he has some sense of shame but you’ve convinced me that that was likely not the motivating factor for his resignation). Self-preservation for Trump (and McConnell) means digging in, especially with Mueller’s statement about the possibility of prosecution once a president leaves office. I still think a dam will break and Trump is closer to the end than we realize. That means he’ll rile his base up as much as he can from here on out. Doesn’t change the fact that they are not now and have never been a majority.
Sab
@J R in WV: @Felanius Kootea: I watched both the hearings all the way through. I think the media pundits only watched the morning hearing (judiciary) and then pre-wrote their reaction as if they watched both hearings(judiciary and intel) when they hadn’t.
My congressman represents a very blue, very gerrymandered district. The district as a whole always goes Democratic at every level, but the county he actually lives in went for Trump. He was waffling on impeachment at first. Now he is for it. So, slow progress.
Martin
@John S.: You have to play the odds. Democrats best odds are in 2020, not in impeachment. Impeachment is the right thing to do, but it’s a low probability action. That doesn’t mean to not do it, but it does mean that you cannot, even for a minute, take your eye off of 2020. That’s what he’s reminding us of. If your goal is removal – focus on 2020. If your goal is on justice, focus on impeachment. If your goal is both, do both.
Remember, he’s a lawyer, and by all indications a very good one. He is predisposed to chart the prudent course.
Jay
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5224603
Felanius Kootea
@Felanius Kootea: Rossello not Rossellini. Stupid autocorrect.
Martin
@Sab: I think most of them are just cowards. My freshman congresswoman, winning a red district for the first time ever (we’ve never had a democrat in this district), came out solid for impeachment. This isn’t hard. We elected her once, actions like that will ensure we do again.
Jay
@Elie:
@Elie:
And Hillary died during the 2016 Campaign,
Ruth Bader Ginsburg died in 2012 and was replaced by a robot,…..
Harbison
It’s funny to read this thread. And, by “funny” I mean frustrating, embittering, and enraging.
How many posts have appeared in Balloon Juice heralding the supreme managerial, tactical, and leadership skills of Pelosi? Certainly hundreds, probably thousands. Nancy SMASH! and all that. What an amazing legislative force! How skillfully she wrangles the recalcitrant. What sublime control she has over the herd of cats that is the democratic house!
So why no impeachment? She doesn’t have the votes. Oh well. Sure these erstwhile cheerleaders imply, she’d love to bring the justice hammer down on Trump but, what ya gonna do if people don’t want to vote for impeachment?
What a steaming pile of horseshit. Some of you people are worse than deluded Fox news bots.
Here’s the simple facts, boys and girls: Pelosi does not want to impeach. Guess what? She was not lying when she offered – at the end of an interview and without direct prompting – that she didn’t think Trump was worth impeaching. What a radical idea – actually taking her at her word. She has actively undermined, belittled, questioned, and foot dragged on the question of impeachment again and again and again.
Is there anything more apparent and obvious in 2019 than the fact that Trump is unfit for office? This isn’t a hard ask.
If Pelosi wanted there to be impeachment, it would happen. Period. She could very easily cue up hearings, generate the necessary momentum, and get articles of impeachment. Piece of Fucking Cake.
Again – how about you take Pelosi at her word?
(It is a completely separate question about whether or not she SHOULD push for impeachment now or later. But the idea that she just can’t wrangle the votes is dumb, dumb, dumb.)
joel hanes
@Miss Bianca:
Do what?
I agree with everything you said.
However, I think there are non-impeachment-related program activities that the Democrats could undertake, and I have just sent the following to my House Representative:
Elizabelle
@Martin: Doing both sounds great to me. Just watch the timing. As I know Pelosi, Schiff and their leadership are doing.
Investigate, investigate. Make the case. Pursue impeachment. But the actual jury will be the American voters, not the inadequate Republican-majority Senate we are stuck with. Give the voters a reason to turn out to vote in 2020.
You could get another blue wave, and make a point about pursuing justice as well. Make Trump and all his awful retinue private citizens to be. About to face justice in the courts.
Of course, I would be delighted with an impeachment that results in a Senate conviction. The unforeseen (but beneficial) can always intervene.
Timing will be everything, and don’t fire too early. One shot. Make it count.
Felanius Kootea
@Elie: I don’t think Mueller is any more impaired than Trump (who shows way more signs of cognitive impairment, in my view). Even if he were, he led a team of, what, 17 lawyers? Why would all their work be thrown out?
I think he’s an old-school Republican who shuns the spotlight and is dismayed by how far his party has fallen in terms of giving aid and comfort to the enemy in return for a few more years of power.
Miss Bianca
@Jay: Yeah, and people wonder why Dems are focusing on the 2020 election? It’s because shit like this is happening every damn day, and impeachment – while right, while moral, while *exciting* – isn’t going to stop it.
Elizabelle
@Harbison: Bullshit.
joel hanes
@Sab:
I think the media pundits only watched the morning hearing
It’s my impression that Maggie Haberman and Chuck Todd were already criticizing the optics by the end of the first hour
Elizabelle
@Elie: So why not insist that Mr. Zebley be the public face? That actually would have been more than acceptable.
Felanius Kootea
@Harbison: Will you eat your words if impeachment hearings begin in October or November or will you move to the newest way in which Pelosi has failed you? She may not have the votes *now*. That doesn’t mean she’ll never have the votes.
Miss Bianca
@joel hanes: OK, that’s a good list. I may just crib it for talking to my rep – who’s a Republican, so not much use with him, but a good list anyway.
joel hanes
@Elizabelle:
More of a reply than his comment deserved.
Also, he ignores Alexander’s Law:
You must choose one of those goals. If you must tell someone off, go ahead, but don’t deceive yourself that you’ll change their mind in the process.
Sab
@Martin: What can I say. My guy is Tim Ryan who was all about winning back the “working class voters.” I am heartened that he thinks this will help. He very much wants to move up and out politically. He apparently has been persuaded that being pro-impeachment will not be toxic for his future.
Racer X
What you are suggesting the Democrats do sounds like “leadership”. Don’t hold your breath.
laura
@Harbison: hey everybody, it’s this asshole again.
Miss Bianca
@Felanius Kootea: hell, no – wasn’t it this person, or was it some other, who was screaming about how Pelosi was such an Utter Failure Who Failed Me Utterly by not uttering the magic word “impeachment” – only to have Pelosi utter the magic word a couple days later? There will always be new goalposts to move to new places in the great football game known as “How the Democrats Have Betrayed Us All.”
Baud
FWIW
narya
@rikyrah: This makes me so happy. As a generic oldish white person, I’m always happy to see photos that challenge the white male narrative that so many pictures show. Not to mention the beauty and joy in even the few pics I saw. So glad it’s being made part of our collective history, where it belongs.
Elizabelle
@Felanius Kootea: Harbison is just here to sow discord and tear the place up. It’s what he/she/it does.
ruemara
@John S.: BEcause it is. My god, why don’t people get this. The House is the trial. The actual impeachment removal or censure, is the Senate. period.
joel hanes
@Miss Bianca:
On reflection, I think that the security camera one is a no-go, out of various historical protections for ballot anonymity.
Aleta
@Miss Bianca: just replied to you in the previous thread …
Jay
@Miss Bianca:
The process of Impeachment pours a lot of molasses on the wheels grinding down American Democracy. For example, it will require that Yurtle the Turtle do more than just court packing and not scheduling House Resolutions for a Senate vote. The process also peels off Wussolinni’s Minions, some who will leave to spend more time with their lawyers, some who will seek ajoining rooms with Epstein.
And, the “optics” of the Impeachment process, if managed well, will drive turnout in 2020.
FlipYrWhig
I’m getting weary of people blaming “leadership” for not “leading”… something. It’s starting to be like the sad phenomenon a few years back wherein the blogosphere became fixated on minting a trillion-dollar coin. It’s super-duper insider-cynical: if someone did a thing that led to a thing that was on TV just so, then everything would start to move in the right direction! Do you really think so, seriously? You know how many people in the general public know what the “Democratic leadership” is, or what they’re doing, from day to day? Pretty much zero. They probably know there’s such a person as Nancy Pelosi, and that’s about it. Nobody is deciding how or when to vote based on something that Adam Schiff or Jerry Nadler says or does, whether it’s “gutless” or, I dunno, the opposite of that, “gutful” I guess.
ruemara
@Jay: They are amazing and it breaks my heart that America will have to go through the level of abuse they’ve suffered at American government hands for folks to get half that energy.
Elizabelle
@Baud: Interesting. Good to see that out. On a lighter note:
Andy Borowitz, satirist with the New Yorker: photo of Putin reviewing a document at a desk.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@FlipYrWhig:
They do in my district(Schiff’s my congresscritter).
FlipYrWhig
@Martin:
IMHO a lot of them decided that they got elected promising to Do The People’s Work with Common Sense Solutions, and fear that talking about impeachment casts them as lockstep partisans.
FlipYrWhig
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Touché!
Yarrow
Seems they’re all broke.
Maybe he could ask his buddy Vlad for a loan.
Yarrow
The Trump business associate is Felix Sater.
CatFacts
@Elie: So the new troll talking points are diagnosing people with dementia based on their appearance on television? Damn, that’s a new low. Though I’m not surprised.
Trump and company must be a little bit afraid. If not, we wouldn’t be seeing all the trolls and despair porn people taking to the internet right now.
TenguPhule
@Amir Khalid:
Schedule a vote to initiate impeachment proceedings. Not a procedural vote, the actual thing. No weaseling out by sending it to die on technical ruling.
GET IT ON THE FUCKING OFFICIAL RECORD.
Its time we know where everyone stands, on our side and theirs. If our last House majority was willing to risk their seats on the ACA vote, why should the current one do any less for an even more important principle?
No one should be above the law. Without this nothing else really matters and we’ll have to settle this the way I’ve been having nightmares about for the last 2 years.
Elizabelle
@CatFacts: Elie is not a troll. She(?) is a long-time commenter.
Agreed re the trolls and despair porn. Particularly that afflicts our finest DC press corpse. I have started saving articles, to keep score as the coming months play out.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule: And when it fails*, Trump says he’s been cleared by the House Democrats.
*As of today, it will fail.
Ben Cisco
@ruemara: My god, why don’t people get this.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
The duty of the speaker is to bully, bribe, grease wheels and otherwise do whatever it takes to get her fellow House Democrats to vote the way she wants them to.
Carrots, sticks, bullwhips. Pelosi worked harder to get support for the ACA then she has so far for impeachment proceedings.
Jay
2 Nazi’s who have killed 3 people at random are on the run in northern Manitoba after starting their murder spree in northern BC.
Jay
@Elizabelle:
I thought we all agreed that remote diagnosis by even medical professionals let alone amateurs was malpractice.
Moreso when it’s just a rehash of Still Dead Briebart’s and the Daily Callers front page yesterday,
And Crypt Keeper Kellyanne Conway’s talking points this AM.
TenguPhule
@Felanius Kootea:
I gave her till the end of October. After that, I will have receipts. Lots of receipts.
CatFacts
@Elizabelle: Okay, but the “Is Mueller in early dementia?” line of thinking is one of the talking points being pushed by The Federalist today. I highly doubt those guys published it out of genuine concern for his well-being. We’ve got to push back on that kind of stuff even if it’s a legit mistake on the commenter’s part. And yeah, I’m talking about myself as much as anyone else here. I guess I could’ve been nicer about it.
joel hanes
@TenguPhule:
I am in awe of your intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the House Democratic caucus. Palantir? Hidden microphones or cameras? An informant mole? However do you do it, Holmes ?
TenguPhule
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Instead he’s going to crow that “There is no crime and even the Democrats know it because they won’t even try to stop me!” for months.
He’s controlling the narrative and that’s never a good thing.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule:
She can do that at the margins, where the number of votes she needs is in the single digits or in the teens, she can’t do that when the votes are in the triple digits.
MisterForkbeard
@TenguPhule:
The key difference here is that the ACA had a real and likely chance to become law. It was supported by most of the Democratic Party, the President, and had close to a majority in both houses and just needed a few arms twisted – and at the end, there would have a been a real, positive impact.
In this case, not all the party wants to impeach. NP would have to coerce (at last count) more than half the Dem representatives to have a chance of getting it through the House. And then it would killed pretty much immediately (and possibly with a great PR victory for Trump) in the Senate.
So what you’re asking for is very different: A difficult vote for a relatively few MOCs for a very likely gain, versus a difficult vote for half the caucus which has a good chance of failing in the House and will almost assuredly fail in the Senate. You can say that they need to do it anyway, and I think there’s some merit there. But the two situations are strikingly different.
TenguPhule
@joel hanes:
TenguPhule
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
She could provide a list of the nay votes which need to be directed by the base, giving directions which would help a lot to channel the energy and frustration. Carrots, sticks, bullwhips, she doesn’t have to do it alone.
Elie
@Elizabelle:
Can you imagine the hoo ha if he announced that he had ANY kind of impairment that effected memory, judgement or analysis of what path to take or not take in a line of this incredible investigation? I don’t think it would just be a simple thing to have an assistant “take over”. The questions would swirl not just about this hearing but how long before that was he afflicted? There would be all kinds of questions about everything and every approach – on all sides of the inquiry. The report methodology would be the topic — not the findings. They would have to dismember the report.
No, I don’t think that he/they could simply announce that any of his deputies would be the person answering all the questions without going into why Mueller was not available and for how long back this went. Of course, how do I know? I was just speculating and letting my mind roam over the implications if indeed the Special Counsel had cognitive impairment. He seemed pretty impaired to me, especially in the morning. He didn’t seem able to defend the work of his team. He didn’t remember who appointed him for crimeney’s sake! This guy does not forget those kind of details normally! He’s a detail guy, remember?
Nope, I don’t think it would be just a matter of swapping in one of his many attorneys, no matter how brilliant they are.
Elizabelle
@CatFacts: Aha. The Federalist, you say.
I just figured Mueller is hard of hearing, and that committee room was a bit much for him. Also that he was reticent to say much. I do wonder what he was thinking about those lunatic Republicans and their fanciful questions and comments.
TenguPhule
@MisterForkbeard: Refusing to even try to make that difficult vote in the first place is what makes Republican lies about “Nothing here, just normal partisan politics” gain strength. Time is not our friend here.
Elizabelle
@Elie: The report was a team effort, no matter that it is called The Mueller Report (or whatever its formal title is!)
Miss Bianca
@CatFacts: Let’s see, Elie’s been commenting here for years, and your nym I’ve seen…never before.
Careful who you’re calling troll, there.
Miss Bianca
@Aleta: got it, thanks for the update!
Elie
@Elizabelle:
Wow! Thanks for defending me, Elizabelle, but I thought this place was the only place that I could safely talk about this… to me a valid question for anyone witnessing Mr. Mueller’s behavior yesterday. Actually, the commenter who speculated about me and whether I was a troll highlights how loaded this issue would be if indeed Mr Mueller is impaired. It would have very serious impacts in many different directions. So we should just scream at whoever brings it up and stick our heads in the sand?
I can definitely let my discussion of this go, but that doesn’t mean that the issue/question will go away and the thing to do is not to ball up and accuse whoever brings it up of having negatve motives. Life is complicated. We will have to be very brave about a lot of things over the next two years.
Thanks again, Elizabelle.
Elie
@Miss Bianca:
Thanks for the backup. Truly appreciated!
joel hanes
@TenguPhule:
Not responsive to the question asked. You made a claim about Pelosi’s interaction with the members of her caucus: I asked you how you came by that “information”.
The wavering margin for the ACA was measured in maybe ten votes, meaning that Pelosi’s whip-count was 208 in favor. To the best of my knowledge (which is not very precise, I admit), the most recent whip-count for initiating impeachment is somewhere between 100 and 150, so there are between 63 and 113 marginal votes to be influenced.
Yes, Manchin and Landrieu exhibited political courage on the ACA, and voted Yea.
34 Democrats voted Nay.
Green-Lanternism is folly, however attractive it may seem.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Harbison: Your insults are SOOOOOOOO persuasive!
Uncle – I see the error of my ways! I’ll never say a nice thing about Speaker Pelosi again, I swear!
Miss Bianca
@Elie: De nada. Glad to see you back, btw.
FTR – I think Mueller is just *old*. And tired. And probably hard of hearing. And, however unflappable on the outside, possibly just completely nonplussed by the flying Republican monkeys screaming at him.
Elie
@CatFacts:
I am not a troll.
You and others might benefit from a little reading up on early dementia. Because it definitely would be a very upsetting thing for us, but that does not mean that it can’t happen. Is that how you handle and prepare for any negative surprise? Deny it and stick your head in the sand? We would have to face it and work out what to do, just like any other unpleasant outcome. We will have many challenges over the next two years. Get yourself ready. We can do this.
Mandalay
@CatFacts:
If you can’t disagree with someone else’s comment without resorting to calling them a troll….just fuck off.
Troll.
Elizabelle
FWIW, I did worry about Mueller’s health a bit yesterday. He looked gaunt and appeared a bit tentative. I wondered if he’d had a recurrence of prostate cancer, which he beat in 2001 or so. Then I wondered if he might be more hard of hearing than he expected, in dealing with the House committee room. (He had a smaller room and fewer questions in the afternoon session, and loosened up a bit then, although still hardly garrulous.)
It’s bizarre to hear this dementia theory come out, though. (1) Projection. Trump appears to suffer from it, although being a narcissistic and amoral criminal with little curiosity of anything beyond money and vanity explains a lot too.
(2) Think of how gossipy the DC press corpse is. It’s a rather small town. And that theory is just rolling out today? Mmm, no.
(3) I do wonder how much of Mueller’s demeanor could be explained by his realizing the scope of how far his Republican party had fallen. All the institutions: some failing, some under duress. Barr and his machinations. Those moron Congresscritters asking him questions in both panels yesterday (except for Will Hurd, Intelligence Committee) were loop de loop. Having to listen to Devin Nunes, and realize that creature has a security clearance.
It was two panels full of Joseph McCarthys, calling Mueller a fraud. (I speak only of the Republicans here. The Democrats were fine, reality-based, and understood the gravity of the hearings.)
The Republicans just reminded me of The Crucible, by Arthur Miller. Shame that play is never NOT timely.
Elie
@Miss Bianca:
Whatever. I certainly don’t want to pee in my own tent. We have a lot to do to get ready for the next two years. I am heavily involved locally. I’ve been lurking all along reading your and Elizabelle’s good comments. I just had to focus my energy. Also had some mental health issues in my family….
Always good to read you my friend…
Elizabelle
@Miss Bianca:
You got there before I did, and way more succinctly.
Also, the treacherous behavior of William Barr.
Elie
@Elizabelle:
Trump has a major personality disorder and maybe a little dementia. No one seems to care! We end up “normalizing” whatever he presents. He has been extraordinarily fortunate.
I’ll say this: Sooner or later the bill becomes due and luck runs out. Unfortunately, when he becomes truly unlucky, so will we…
J R in WV
@joel hanes:
Those two are owned and operated by either Republicans handled by Russians, or are themselves O&O by Russian agents. I guess there are other possibilities, their boss makes them work for Russia, they’re both dysfunctional in similar ways, etc.
But owned and operated by Russian agents is the simplest answer. The “Occam’s Razor” answer.
J R in WV
@ruemara:
No, you have the terminology mixed up. Impeachment is what the House does, if a majority of the House votes to impeach, then there is a trial held by the Senate, which is the “jury” while Chief Justice Roberts presides. That Senate trial is to remove the office holder, in this case Trump.
Upon removal, indictments may be handed up and arrests made persuent to criminal trial on crimes related to the impeachment and removal trial.
Chris Johnson
@Elizabelle:
This, a thousand times this. Mueller KNOWS what’s up. I have felt for some time that the Dem leadership in the House knows too. But more than anyone else, Mueller knows. He started out a Republican, and maybe still is by the old definition, and now he looks out and all his former companions are traitors. How are you going to execute an orderly transfer of power back out of Russian hands when it is IN Russian hands? And they got the White House most directly, and they got the Senate under the rules of procedure (in that, there are Senators who are not traitors but McConnell is and he’s in total control) and they’ve got the news media and God only knows what else.
And if he was to say so, they’d straight up call him demented (a trial balloon being floated and/or echoed here, which pisses me off) so, as House Dem leadership said, they have one shot. If that, but I think it’s true that they have one shot, and many outcomes where they step into the woodchipper. Effectively our government is already lost but we gotta play along with maintaining the fiction that it’s not, because it’s a necessary fiction.
The reality of what’s going on out there will not play in Peoria, in any sense. We can’t simply call out the traitors as traitors because there are too many of them… but they can’t directly step forward as traitors and revolutionaries because that’s not how they presented themselves.
So we get stuff like the replacement of the Great Seal: either some lefty calling out the truth of what Trump is, a Russian puppet… or a prank by those playful Russians for their domestic consumption, just to hang a lampshade on what they have done.
CatFacts
Not a troll. Long-time lurker who comments occasionally. I was just unhappy to see the right-wing talking points du jour about Mueller’s health turn up here. No harm intended.
Elie
@CatFacts:
I had no idea that the right wing was talking about this. In any case, my observations were mine from MY experience with dementia as a nurse and in my family. Totally know that he is not my patient or relative and that there may be other factors but I saw some things that jarred me and got me thinking. Hence my comment. Sometimes discussing possible facts isn’t right or left wing but of course, the right will emphasize any fact that supports their goals. We do it too.
Chris Johnson at #172 seems pretty pessimistic. According to him, why bother on anything — its all a loss and our government is a Potemkin Village just going through the motions. Sheesh….
John S.
It’s nice to see so many loyal Dems here defending nearly anything that Nancy Smash and others do. I’m usually one myself. And I’m willing to be patient and allow votes to be wrangled, minds to be changed and whatever strategy Dem leadership thinks will work play out.
But I sincerely hope that we aren’t still using the same justifications a year from now. I want nothing more than to have Trump and his loyalists out of office. Pointing out when something is or isn’t working isn’t heretical, and the groupthink that happens around here from time to time is antithetical to that goal.
And seriously, before I have to read any BS from people who think I’m a troll, plant, blah, blah, blah – I’ve been reading and commenting on this blog before most of y’all. Back when Cole was a hardcore conservative, and I was spending hours arguing with him and the likes of TallDave and Darrell.
Oh to be young again and have that much free time on my hands.
CatFacts
@Elie: Ah, good to know. Sorry for being on a bit of a hair trigger. Our national political discourse right now is doing nobody any favors! Off to do offline stuff and get my optimism back.
joel hanes
@J R in WV:
Nah, they’re just shallow self-absorbed assholes basking in what they imagine to be reflected glory.
McConnell, now — kompromat for sure.
Felanius Kootea
@John S.: I wonder whether Darrell and TallDave and Stormy are Trumpers now or if, like Cole, they came to their senses… I started out reading Balloon Juice (under a different nym) almost as far back as you, to get a “sane” conservative’s perspective on the issues during the GWB years. Never occurred to me in a million years that Cole would become a Democrat.
Never thought I’d see the level of paranoia that I now do but I kind of get it.
Bill Arnold
@Elie:
I just watched 30 minutes of Mueller (CSPAN) from yesterday out of curiosity because of your original comment. It was a mix; he responded to some questions before the questioner completed the questions, which is a good sign. His timings seemed fine for someone his age; i’ve seen slower in people in their 40s. He clearly didn’t like the public process (including the cameras) and especially seemed annoyed at the way that the Republicans were treating him as a hostile witness, hectoring and trying to trip him up under oath. Not everyone responds well to that level of stimulus.
Can you point to a particular exchange (or three) that caught your attention? (I’ve only dealt with dementia when it was quite obvious.)
Nancy
@Cheryl Rofer: I plan to call and head to Joe Morrelle’s office to let him know that I support an impeachment inquiry.
He needs to hear from us ordinary people. Signing online petitions doesn’t do it.
Chris Johnson
@Elie:
It ain’t? At the very least, the executive branch, and to some extent the Senate under McConnell. We KNOW this and see it every day.
We’re not done, and it’s much harder to maintain such a state of affairs than it is to produce it. It was produced through lies and tricks, much like Brexit. It can’t last.
Payback is coming.
Elie
@Bill Arnold:
Thanks for asking… I am probably wrong but it was around his history of who hired/appointed him and a general sense of not being familiar with his own report. I may be overly sensitive to it so will just step away from it. Last thing I want is to be peeing in my own tent.
Elie
@Chris Johnson:
I believe you are right. I cannot be sustained. I am ready to do the heavy lifting that we will be asked next year and want to work on being resistant to negativity (mostly my own)
Elie
@Elie: Meant IT cant be sustained,,
tam1MI
@TenguPhule:
I see that the Wilmerite types have come up with their newest excuse to throw the next election to Donald Trump.
The Gray Adder
Damn shame we let the best candidate we had just walk out the door. Yes, I’m talking about Al Franken. Can you imagine him at these debates? Can you imagine him debating Trump? So let’s see, six very minor instances where he let his hand wander a few millimeters below the belt at the Minnesota State Fair…seems kinda trivial in retrospect, considering who he’d be running against.