We've been talking about politics in war metaphors for so long that people are now thinking it's literal war, where being outnumbered can be overcome with good tactics and grit. The House needs exactly 218 votes to impeach. 217 + high morale doesn't count.
— DSA DNC Caucus (@agraybee) July 25, 2019
My junior senator and my personal rep have joined the choir:
Now another one: Sen. Markey is calling on the House on to begin immediate impeachment proceedings against Trump.
— Ben Swasey (@benswasey) July 25, 2019
That is why I believe we need to open an #ImpeachmentInquiry that will provide us a more formal way to fully uncover the facts. My full statement here: https://t.co/3VtVeV96Th
— Katherine Clark (@RepKClark) July 25, 2019
Clark actually took over Markey’s old job when he switched from the House to the Senate. You’d think calling for impeachment would be a relatively low-risk stance here in the People’s Republic Commonwealth, but both of them are big worriers about cybersecurity, and I’ve gotten the impression they’re suspicious Trump would further encourage Putin’s IRA to interfere with our elections down to the local levels if he feels threatened. If that’s their viewpoint, better to protect the state-level firewalls and drag out the discussions until closer to November 2020.
Counter-argument about Mueller’s ‘ineffective’ appearance from former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti, for Politico — “Actually, Robert Mueller Was Awesome”:
… In the long view, the verdict of history depends most of all on Mueller being seen as nonpartisan, measured and above the fray—an operator whose work is unimpeachable and can be relied on (now, or after Trump’s term, or years from now) as a bulletproof statement of fact. So all the little details of the case that members were trying to ferret out pale in comparison to his ability to maintain that status and be seen as a reliable agent of impartiality. During the hearing, that was clearly his goal. In doing that, he succeeded, and history can thank him for it…
His monotonal yes and no answers might not have made for the most dramatic viewing, but they weren’t without effect. In five minutes, House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff walked Mueller through the most damning details of Volume 1 of his report. Mueller’s answers were short—“that did occur,” “accurate,” “that is correct”—but what he affirmed was that Russia engaged in a systematic effort to help Trump win in 2016, that Trump and his campaign welcomed Russian aid, and that Trump lied to the American people about his business dealings in Russia.
When Mueller wanted to say more, he did. He described in detail the threat posed by the Russian attack on our electoral process, testifying that “they’re doing it as we sit here, and they expect to do it during the next campaign.” He warned that “many more countries are developing the capability to replicate what the Russians had done.” When Mueller had the rare opportunity to testify about matters that were not partisan—matters that should concern all Americans—he testified freely and strongly.
At times, Mueller faced harsh questioning from Republicans who lashed him and his team as biased or worse. His calm demeanor was another sign of his professionalism. It would have been easy for Mueller to fight back—he has in previous appearances, after all—but that would have pulled him into the fray. It was not weakness but rather quiet strength that caused Mueller to do nothing more than calmly reply, “I take your question,” in response to GOP Congressman Louie Gohmert’s hyperbolic charge that he “perpetuated injustice.”…
… Mueller got to say what he wanted to say, which is that there is “substantial” evidence to support counts of obstruction, without being forced to say that he concluded Trump obstructed justice. Despite hours of questioning by dozens of members of Congress, Mueller was never backed into a corner or forced to explain the most important legal decision he made.
Even if some think Mueller has lost a step since he last appeared before Congress six years ago, he still looked a step or two ahead of most of his questioners on Wednesday. Most importantly, he appeared above the fray, cautious, and fair in the face of bitter partisan rancor. That is what we should expect from prosecutors, and it is the legacy that Mueller leaves behind.
But it’s not really about Robert Mueller…
Sen. Elizabeth Warren on impeachment: "My view is whether it would pass the Senate or not, I've heard this argument, this is a moment in history, and every single person in Congress should be called on to vote and then to live with that vote for the rest of their lives." pic.twitter.com/AgtAMYFHgc
— The Hill (@thehill) July 25, 2019
Mary G
I still believe that Nancy SMASH has this gamed out as more things pile up. The new calls for impeachment felt timed.
BlueDWarrior
@Mary G: To me the biggest problem with impeachment functionally is that you got to square everything within the caucus in less than 2 years, and these things take a notoriously slow time to wind up even when you are rushing it.
And like the first Tweet says, Nancy is not calling for actual Articles until at least 218 Representatives are absolutely committed it.
I do believe a formal Inquiry is appropriate at this time, if for no other reason to grease the rails some more for the court cases, though.
Baud
No Imm news? :-(
At this point, we’re into August. Nothing is going to happen until after Labor Day, if it happens at all.
Raven
@Baud: Somethings gonna happen after Labor day!
Lapassionara
@Baud: my question also. I was traveling yesterday and only saw bits and pieces of the threads, but I had hoped to hear something about the youngster, positive news would be welcomed.
Anne Laurie
@Raven: Second DNC debate(s), in Detroit, next week. Suspect that will be another inflection point on the yes/no impeachment question, post-Mueller hearing!
NotMax
Quick note that the NYC meet-up is set for tomorrow. Anne Laurie (thank you!) has a post scheduled for mid-afternoon today with the relevant details.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone ???
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Raven
@Anne Laurie: And I’ll be retired!!
JPL
@Baud: Waiting sucks.
rikyrah
Sending positive thoughts to Little Imma, Scotian, and all the rest of the BJ Jackal family???
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
I don’t think impeachment happens during an election year, so it will have to occur between September and November, as they usually recess for most of December.
OzarkHillbilly
@JPL: I’ve been waiting all my life. Are you saying my life sucks?
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
You say “blech” because life is good?
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: You’re the exception.
Raven
The third day of low 60’s in the morning!
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Complaining makes me happy.
@JPL: Blech.
JPL
@Raven: Yesterday I mowed in the afternoon and it was quite comfortable.
Chyron HR
“My view is it’s not my ass on the line so I’m free to have strong opinions about what other people need to do.”
Raven
@JPL: Coyotes have settled in the kudzu behind the house, maybe mowing will move em.
Baud
@Raven:
Mowing them will kill them.
Raven
@Baud: You can’t mow kudzu but the noise may run em off.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: Uck. I like coyotes but there more of an asset than a liability out here. In the suburbs?
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: Yup. There’s a neighborhood bobcat too! I hope my fence is a deterrent. Google tells me that a tambourine is enough to scare the bobcat.
David C Macdonald
@rikyrah:
Good morning to you as well, and your positive thoughts, they are always welcome.
Raven
@OzarkHillbilly: we’re in town
Baud
Why can’t Democrats come up with innovative solutions to society’s problems like Republicans?
Scotian
@rikyrah:
Thank you, you and your well wishes are always welcome, they warm the heart and are a pleasure to read when I wake up.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: “We need a bigger mower.”
@Raven: Same diff to me. ;-)
Chris Johnson
My concern with gaming out impeachment strategies for practicality is this: it tacitly says that the current state of affairs is valid.
We’re talking about an elaborate and successful Russia-backed coup. Some, like Mueller, know more about the full scope of it. We’re talking about outright treason and a fake executive branch, and we’re trying to establish that they are illegitimate while, on the other side, they know they’re illegitimate and are controlling every procedural avenue possible (whether it’s legal or illegal) to produce an equally fake answer. Every accusation is a projection and these guys are incredibly concerned with fake, illegitimate, lies, illegal, all that.
They are just as prepared to cheat in order to get a ‘we are real and legal and innocent!’ ruling from the refs as Barr was to lie about the Mueller report or their adminstration was, to gain office in the first place. That’s just what this is, full stop.
To get bogged down in whether the Trump kangaroo courts and Russian-controlled Senate will convict the President of treason is to say that, should the enemy forces deny it, that makes them RIGHT. As if having the criminal proclaim his innocence is the final argument. Refusing to impeach (which hasn’t necessarily happened yet) is like doing the math, deciding that the enemy forces are so strong that their crime will go unpunished, and then AGREEING that it is not a crime, they are the new gods, have a nice day.
Screw that. Impeach. Because we do not need their permission to consider them criminals and traitors and engineers of a coup.
And they sure as fuck don’t need Dems publically validating their tactics and playing it like the Trump people have a right to run the process. That’s the whole problem. Make them have to be the Potemkin puppet government they are. Walk through the process and force them to show their hand. Do not concede, because they don’t have a victory. They have a crime.
debbie
@BlueDWarrior:
In addition to an inquiry, go into the elections with a formal document (set up like the Declaration of Independence, with each charge spelled out), and vote to censure him.
satby
@rikyrah: Good morning and true that!
@David C Macdonald: @Scotian: Good morning to you, yourself, and you ?
Kay
@Baud:
Ohio has them too.
debbie
@JPL:
I’ve had foxes trot past me. Live and let live, but they make me nervous.
OzarkHillbilly
@Chris Johnson:
I don’t know by what logic you reach that conclusion. Prosecutors game out trial strategies all the time. It’s how one wins.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Florida has them as well, as of last year. Someone should figure out what this nonsense costs.
satby
@debbie: why? They would never bother you. Coyotes wouldn’t either. They’re valuable members of the ecosystem, your population of mice and other rodents would be much higher without them. I loved seeing them in MI, don’t see them at all now that I’m back in a city.
OzarkHillbilly
@Betty Cracker: Hopefully someone will make it cost plenty.
Chris Johnson
There’s another thing.
Congresscritters seem to have gotten used to being Beltway people, creatures of the process, and they think their value is of wielders of that process. They can manage the fundraising, they can run committees, we celebrate Nancy Smash for her ability to command that process. They are balking because they’re gaming out scenarios where the process fails, and they seem to think that if they do their thing and the process fails, they’ve got nothing.
But they’re up against criminals, and they are our publically elected representatives. If their process fails, they are still our representatives. There is a moral power there which a lot of these folks are failing to see, because they’re not used to it. It’s hard to keep systems like this focused on being representatives, but it cannot be taken away through crime and fraud. THEY are the ones who are ‘our people’. They’re not there to roll over and go ‘okay, you beat us, you run things now ‘cos our impeachment didn’t beat your corrupt process’.
Even if the process fails THEY are our representatives. And that can be a burden but that is also an authority far beyond anything Trump’s fake government can hope to possess.
Our people gotta decide if they are our people, our representatives, or whether someone can do a crime so big that it wins their allegience and makes them serve Russia and NOT us.
debbie
@satby:
Rabies worries me. When I was a kid, I was sitting in the ER waiting to get my chin stitched up and some kid was getting a rabies shot. The screaming and shrieking freaked me out.
NotMax
@debbie
And here I was laboring under the impression the foxtrot went out of style along with the celluloid collar. Silly me.
:)
Chris Johnson
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, I get that, and I want to see a win too. But they gotta go forward whether or not they think they can get a ‘win’ or whether they think they’re beaten, because they’re our representatives. Nobody gets to game-theory them into being traitors too. This is not conditional on whether the Trump forces give up. (and yeah, plan it out as well as possible, be smart and not Leeroy Jenkins, but in the end there is only one answer)
germy
In 1996 Susan Collins promised to serve two terms in the U.S. Senate and then come home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8v-Mgrw0kI
(The youtube video was uploaded eleven years ago)
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
I hope it helps turn students into athiests.
Another Scott
In other news, RollCall:
No, no. Lord-God-Emperor Donnie is First of His Name. He’s special. No one shall come before Him!!11
No, no. Democrats in the House are cowards and are selling out the country because they’re not doing what I want Right NowNowNow. They should listen to Me because I know how to type and can post anonymous screeds on a blog!!11
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
Immanentize
Good morning, All!
Just a quick drive-by update to tell you that the Immp’s surgery went as well as it possibly could.
The surgeon couldn’t see any sign of cancer on the stomach, so microscopic amounts there, and there seems to be no involvement with the nearby lymph nodes. Whew! But they will have to biopsy those.
The kid looks great, but wan. And he was pretty much out of it all yesterday. But I know he is OK because after surgery in post-op I was smoothing down his hair and he looked up at me and said, “Dad, please stop petting me.”
Today they plan to get him out of bed and on his feet. Maybe he’ll get the ‘nose down the throat tube’ out too….
Back to the hospital in a few minutes….
Relieved!
OzarkHillbilly
@Chris Johnson:
The 2020 elections are far more important than any impeachment proceeding that we are certain to not succeed in. If “going forward” win or lose costs us not just the Presidency but the House and the Senate too, it’s “Game over man”.
Amir Khalid
@JPL:
The waiting is the hardest part, saith Tom Petty.
Baud
Where is Major^4?
Baud
@Immanentize:
Yes!
debbie
@NotMax:
Heh.
OzarkHillbilly
@Immanentize: Good to hear.
Another Scott
@Immanentize: Thanks for the update and the good news. Continued best wishes.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I figured :)
Ohio’s have to be donated- if someone donates them to the school, then they have to go up. That would be key to them passing court muster in this state. They also put the state motto on them- with god all things are possible- as a further protection to any legal challenges. They’re odd looking- weird colors and font. They look cheap.
They win some and they lose some. Every couple of years they try to ban a book at the high school. The administration(s) are real pros at putting them off. I don’t think the people who attempt it every couple of years know how often it’s tried. They don’t know that some other fundamentalist already attempted, because people move thru schools- their kids are there for a period and then there are a new set of kids/parents so you end up fighting the same battles with each successive group. Haven’t succeeded in banning one yet.
satby
@debbie: unless you tried to capture either one, you’re extremely unlikely to get bit and get rabies. So don’t worry ?
Even on the occasional raccoon rescue I haven’t worried about rabies. Most animals don’t have it, even wild ones.
Immanentize
@Baud:
He will be fine — he just texted me to bring a long charging cable for his phone. The first text! I should preserve it.
satby
@Immanentize: we’ve been waiting to hear this good news. Thank you, and tell the Immp hundreds of people in cyberspace are rooting for him.
Boudica
@Immanentize: Good news!
Chris Johnson
@OzarkHillbilly: What do you think will win the elections: Democrats acting to represent us in government, or Democrats appearing to cave and just plain surrender to the Trump crimes because they think they will ‘lose’ a rigged game?
They HAVE to appear to fight and not surrender, because they’re our representatives. The surest way to lose is to not even appear to resist the Trump coup. I’m sure Russia is doing everything it can to convince our people that the electorate wants ‘decorum’ and total surrender, but it’s palpably false. We’re all losing our minds out here: we need backup.
Watch and see which primary candidates get popular support, and the way they talk about impeachment. Me, I’m just echoing what Warren and others are saying, but I’m putting it in blunter terms because I’m just some nym on a blog, and I can say it that bluntly. The Dems in public office don’t get to, but some of them are saying it as bluntly as they can. They MUST be representatives first, or they will have nothing and also lose.
Kay
@Immanentize:
That’s great. How are you? Did you get any sleep the last 48 hours?
Baud
@Immanentize:
Off the internet for 24 hours. It’ll be a whole new world to him.
David C Macdonald
@Immanentize:
Good to hear! And I’m glad to hear it for the both of you!
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: Great news!
OzarkHillbilly
@Immanentize:
Heh, along with video of his first steps.
satby
@Chris Johnson: never forget that a huge majority of people aren’t of the same opinion as those of us who hang out in the liberal, Democratic leaning blogosphere. Yet. No representatives will be willing to go very far from where their constituents seem to want them to go. Whip your family and friends all over the country to demand impeachment before you get aggravated that Pelosi and her leadership are counting votes.
Baud
Our long national nightmare is far from over.
Baud
@satby:
For you.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
For you.
Immanentize
@Kay: last 48? Not much at all. ? Fell asleep last night probably around the time Ozark wakes up. But I got about 4 hours, so I am feeling refreshed. Thanks for asking.
Kay
@Chris Johnson:
It’s hard for me right now because I believe I am watching people who think they are untouchable. They have taken it as license to get worse and worse:
They are people who believe that other people following rules gives them an edge- the edge is most people follow the rules, so breaking them is an advantage. It’s the only advantage they have because they’re not particularly talented or experienced. It’s an easy, unearned advantage and one they rely on. They think people who follow rules are suckers, and suckers should be played. This to me is a type of person and the whole administration is full of them. You cannot overestimate how cynical they are. If it benefits them they will do it, until they’re stopped.
The damage worries me. I don’t think it’s easy to fix, once done. I don’t know how the standards get raised once lowered.
Elizabelle
@Immanentize: Yea! LOL re the petting comment.
Happy Friday, jackals.
Chris Johnson
@satby: But even if they are completely outmatched… if it’s not just the Senate totally under Russian control, but the media and the whole damn population and even IF (I doubt this) the Dems have no hope of prevailing though they know that Trump’s presidency is a crime and act of war, a coup, even IF it is impossible to resist…
If they know the truth, and they do, they’ve got to act.
I don’t believe it’s nearly that bad. The Trump empire rests on LIES. It is fake from bottom to top, and the people who voted for him were lied to, lied cleverly to. Their supposed leaders have no intention of delivering on the fine promises that were made, and they’re not delivering on them. The number of those people who genuinely are happy to starve for Dear Leader so long as they know brown children are being killed, are not a majority. They’re just not. The numbers of those sick fuckers are wildly overblown and most of them have already been recruited for ICE, and their base (and it is a real base) is sustained by a lot of other promises (and they’re not real promises, they’re lies).
That’s a weakness. The whole Trump thing is founded on weakness. Their only hope is to kill as many of us off by wrecking social mechanisms that sustain us, and to wreck the instutitions we depend on, and they’ve been going for broke at that for years but they HAVE to act with that kind of desperation because they have only a limited time in which to act, before reality inevitably sets in. Bottom line, they are not there to help America and they were ‘elected’ on the condition that they help America.
Count votes but pick your time and take your shot: and even if the shot misses, we’re not done.
Baud
Equal time to the new guy.
Kay
@Immanentize:
I know the feeling. You’re the sentry! Must be at your post, worrying :)
Dorothy A. Winsor
Why can’t impeachment hearing happen in an election year? Is it because members of congress will be busy campaigning?
Quinerly
@Baud: was the surgery yesterday? I didn’t check in BJ until last night. Didn’t read most of the comments.
Nicole
@Immanentize: Thank you for the update and I’m so glad surgery went well.
Raven
@Immanentize: Great!
Quinerly
@rikyrah: waves, tail wags, meows from Poco’s tribe. Have a nice Friday!
Quinerly
@rikyrah: ???❤️?
Quinerly
@David C Macdonald: Good morning Scotian!
Chris Johnson
@Kay:
You can also see it as admissions of weakness. Those people have to play their game with utter mercilessness and total disregard for any and all rules and standards because they are criminals, and they are guilty. A bunch of them are traitors of the highest order. If they give an inch, they are doomed: they may be so deep in it that they’d warrant being shot for treason, not simply jailed (if we still do that: if not, I bet the Trump people would like to bring it back to use against their enemies!)
They MUST be untouchable because they are so guilty that the slightest crack could be their undoing. They have no flexibility to be conciliatory at all. They act like that because they have to act like that. Look at McConnell. These people are not trampling on all the norms and institutions for fun, a lot of them are very used to norms and process and decorum, especially in the Senate. But they have no choice at this point, because they are hugely guilty and need to prevent their being caught, no matter what.
Anne Laurie
@satby:
The local foxes I don’t mind, but they’re being driven out of our urban suburb by the coyotes — who wouldn’t bother *me*, but they do steal my tomatoes, and I’m worried about them going after our little elderly dogs in the back yard.
Quinerly
@Scotian: oops, I posted my good morning meant for you to another sweet commenter. So glad to see you checking in this morning. (“Damn you, tiny keyboard on smarty pants phone.”)
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: Excellent! Onward to recovery.
Quinerly
@Immanentize: thanks so very much for the update. Sending pos thoughts.
funlady75
@Immanentize:
Unlurking here…..so glad for you & family….Peace
Quinerly
@Immanentize: ?
OzarkHillbilly
@Chris Johnson:
A lot of people here are hot to trot for “Impeachment NOW!!!” but DEMs don’t win or lose elections on the backs of the Balloon Juice electorate alone. I get the “turnout the base” argument and agree to a large extent. So does Pelosi. Her problem is she has a majority by virtue of swing districts in which the BJ electorate doesn’t hold a whole lot of sway. To keep those seats in the DEM column she HAS to persuade the mushy middle that their best interests remain with a DEM representing them.
Politics for me is a game I play on the internet mostly among like minded people. For our elected representatives it’s a profession with real consequences played out in a very messy world that does not submit to easy one size fits all solutions to very complex problems.
You can call them cowards if you want, it’s repercussion free for you. Starting an impeachment inquiry now might well be the right thing to do. but if it’s the wrong move and they pull the trigger too soon, we will all pay the price. There are no do overs here, they have to get it right the first time.
And with that I have to go, I’m late already.
Ben Cisco
@satby:
Phrasing!
Baud
@Ben Cisco:
No, I think satby is speaking literally there.
Kay
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
My usual inclination would be to wait for a second term – I’m really reluctant to try to overturn an election. I feel like impeachment is the last resort, after elections “fail”. I’m more conservative than nearly all Republicans on this, judging by why they tried to remove Clinton. But even I’m getting there because I think they’re emboldened in a way that feels out of control and they set new lower standards every day.
They bet everything on Trump. It’s all or nothing. I don’t think we’ve seen that before. One of the reasons Republicans felt safe opposing Nixon was they lost congressional seats in solid R areas in a set of special elections leading up to the action. They lost solid GOP seats in 2018. They lost..California. It didn’t affect their actions at all. They actually got more extreme.
rikyrah
@Immanentize:
Oh Imma.
Thank you for checking in.
Tell Little Imma that a lot of people out here are sending him all the positive thoughts that we can ????
MomSense
@Immanentize:
Relieved is right! Tell him it’s your right as a dad to smooch and pet and annoy him with affection for at least a week. And then sneak in some annoyances from us!
I think today Emma has another round of chemo- sending good thoughts to her and Eric.
@Scotian:
Good morning!
I forgot to turn the dryer on last night so I’m not entirely sure what the attire will be for the day.
Kay
@Chris Johnson:
Agreed, but in practice they’re very difficult to deal with. My father used to say “what if everyone did that?” when me and my sibs were little and we broke a rule, something like cutting in line or littering or talking in places people are quiet. I got it. I understood what he was saying. It’s no longer a fair line or a clean park or a quiet place if everyone breaks the rule or norm. He was telling us we were claiming a special exception which would ruin it for everyone if it spread. The flip side of this is you get people like the Trump Administration. They RELY on everyone else following the rules. That’s their edge. They CAN break the rules and gain an edge over you because you won’t. They know this. They’ve done it their whole lives and it has worked for them.
O. Felix Culpa
@Immanentize: Thank all the deities, real and/or imagined! So glad for good news.
Elizabelle
@David C Macdonald: Good morning. Glad you all got a good laugh over that parody presidential shield.
Happy Friday!
JPL
@Immanentize: So happy to hear that. Now on to the healing stage
tokyocali (formerly tokyo expat)
@Immanentize: I’m halfway across the globe and have been checking threads and refreshing threads to hear the news. So glad the surgery is over and Immp is focused on important things, like his phone. I’ve got an 18 year old, too. Priorities. Best wishes for a smooth recovery.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: This is true, and the “rules don’t apply to me” Trumps are just more crass and obvious representatives of a larger cohort: rich, connected people who routinely get away with shit that would land a poor or middle-class person UNDER the jail. Like Epstein, who was apparently a serial pedophile in plain sight for decades, or giant GOP donor Robert Mercer, who owes something like $7 billion in back taxes. I bet he still has a passport too! Meanwhile, if a poor person fails to pay a parking fine, she can end up in jail.
The candidate who can harness anger about this unequal treatment will go far, IMO. You don’t have to be a populist rabble-rouser. It’s a simple matter of fairness.
tokyocali (formerly tokyo expat)
@Kay: Completely agree with this and that’s what I find so distressing about what we face. How do you right things? The Democrats are relying on the courts to enforce the rules, but the courts in many cases have been packed with conservative justices for just this purpose.
Chris Johnson
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, I’m not going to call them cowards, and I’m not certain ‘now’ is the right time: we’ll see. I’m not sure I’m going to defer to only Pelosi here but if for instance Pelosi and Harris and Warren and a few of the Squad are also not moving ‘now’, I’m going to trust them. I’m pretty sure Warren’s take is ‘impeachment, inevitably’ and with that I agree. Take plenty of time setting it up, but in the end you got to move: there is no ‘we decided the votes weren’t there based on polling’, they have a responsibility to history.
Because they know Trump and Russia stole the election. They get to see more of things like the Mueller report than we do. They get to know the truth.
If people ask why they don’t instantly act given that truth, I refer ’em to you, because you are entirely correct. I did cite Leeroy Jenkins. Hope that’s instructive. We are not gonna Leeroy Jenkins this. But in the end, one way or another, we will act, because we can’t NOT act.
It’s nice to see the folks on BJ’s mind checking in. Glad folks are hangin’ in there.
oldgold
In T.S.Eliot’s poem The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, at the end of the poem Prufrock’s ruefully asks: “Do I dare to eat a peach?”
At this point in the poem, Prufrock has faced the fact that he is never going to declare his passion to his lady-love. He imagines himself as an old man, walking along the beach, frail and dried up and never having really experienced life before descending into the grave.
To each of the Prufrocks in the House: “Do I dare to impeach?”
They need to imagine walking along the beach in their dotage reflecting on their failure to embrace the moment.
zhena gogolia
@Immanentize:
Something in my eye . . . .
Steeplejack (phone)
@Immanentize:
Good news on the surgery! Patient and father should both rest easy.
Ohio Mom
@Immanentize: Thank you for this quick drive by update — Very happy to hear all is preceding space.
There’s been a lot of nail biting in Juicerland over the last twelve or so hours. Now we can stop. That whoosh you hear is all the sighs of relief.
Haroldo
@Immanentize:
Happy news.
David C Macdonald
@Quinerly:
And a good morning to you as well. It feels good to be up and able to reply close to when you folks send these greetings as well.
Have a good day and weekend.
Betty Cracker
Wow, have we discussed this? Politico:
Sounds like Reines and/or Clinton was concerned Warren would be a pain in the ass. Impossible to know if this would have made a difference, but damn.
Mandarama
@Immanentize: Oh, thank God! I’m so glad it went well. I’ve been taking a break from politics, and missed all of this important news as a result. ?
Thinking of you and the Immp! He is still heading for Rice, right? I am wishing him that amazingly fast healing the very young can do, so his freshman year can get off to a good start. ❤️
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
I’m sure she considered a lot of good people.
Elizabelle
@oldgold: Do you think the Allman Brothers used the TS Eliot line as inspiration for their album title? Or it’s just Georgia …
I have never read that poem, and you remind me it is well past time to do so. Good morning.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I think “fair” is the single most important word in politics. I wonder if someone talented could get people to think about it in that way- the people who follow the rules make it possible for people who think they’re special to break the rules.
Cutting into a line – what are you really relying on? That everyone else stays in place. If they don’t then you’re not ahead. You could end up further behind if everyone broke the rule like you. Phrase it as “these people RELY on you to get ahead. They cannot get ahead unless you’re put at a disadvantage relative to them”.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: Warren received a “full vetting,” according to the article.
frosty
@Raven: Wow, that’s REALLY short!
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Yep. Interviewed with Clinton. I wonder how many she interviewed. I vaguely recall a short list, but I don’t remember Warren being on it.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I got into it with my youngest son and his gf over this. She and my son were all animated screwing with a computer and I asked them what was up. His gf, who is very smart, was trying to figure out a way to get her AP scores early- they release them different days in different states so it was some IP address trickery. I got really bent out of shape and spoke to them much more sharply than I ordinarily would with someone else’s kid, but this is how she’s going to use all the talent she has? Cheating?
At the same time it felt unfair because some of this heat was coming from watching this unfold, and of course she doesn’t know that. Misplaced anger.
I don’t want them to think this is how people get ahead.
CaseyL
@Immanentize: Absolutely excellent news, and thank you so much for updating us!
Raven
@Kay: I don’t know, in the Army we called it “gettin over”. I feel differently now than I did 50 years ago but I did plenty of gettin over in my time.
oldgold
@Elizabelle:
Check this out: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/eat-a-peach-2/
Yarrow
@Immanentize: Thanks for the update. So glad things went so well! Sounds like he’s well on the way to a great recovery. Remember to take care of yourself.
NotMax
@Immanentize
Huzzah!
Dog Mom
@Immanentize: Wow and what all the other jackets said!
@Scotian: Have a good day!
Happy Friday to all!
Wednesday’s interview went well, but when I asked next steps and I got a vague “other interviews and a few weeks. . . “. Thursday am email included a request for availability for an in-person next week and also a request from another company for a phone interview. Woo Hoo!
Elizabelle
@oldgold: Thank you. Not what one expects, no?
Mandalay
Kisten Gillibrand:
Of course she doesn’t name those candidates because she can’t. She’s lying. And with a very carefully crafted lawyerly statement, with the weasel word “necessarily” inserted to make it completely meaningless anyway.
Forget Gabbard, Omar and Ocasio-Cortez. Gillibrand is single handedly doing far more harm to the image of the Democratic Party right now.
O. Felix Culpa
@Dog Mom: Excellent news! Fingers crossed for you.
Baud
@Mandalay:
What a weird statement. Agree that requires evidence. But she’s not harming us because no one is paying attention to her.
Dog Mom
@O. Felix Culpa: Thanks, I will take any digit crossing that I can get!
O. Felix Culpa
@Dog Mom: Well then, toes crossed too! :)
Elizabelle
@Dog Mom: Yea Dog Mom! Keep us posted!
Quiltingfool
@JPL: Well, I can tell you from personal experience that scolding a bobcat does not deter them, haha. The story? We once had chickens. One night I heard them raising holy hell, so I went outside to see what all the commotion was about – and I saw a large bobcat peering into one of the coops. I told the bobcat, “You need to go right now!” and the bobcat just looked at me, then continued to study the chickens in the coop. I went inside and told my husband how I handled the situation. He was not impressed.
LivinginExile
@Kay: Time after time you post a comment and I think, My God! that’s exactly right.
frosty
@Kay: @Kay:
“They think people who follow rules are suckers, and suckers should be played.”
I’ve had co-workers who fit this description. Infuriating to watch, but at one point I sat back and thought about where they’d be at the end of their lives, having skated through the system and accomplished nothing. I preferred the way I was doing things- getting some work done that I could (occasionally) be proud of.
A Ghost To Most
@Quiltingfool: I don’t know about bobcats, but my son chased a mountain lion out of our back yard with pure bluster and noise.
Dog Mom
I was trying to think of ways to get some ‘Politics resistant’ people that I know to get informed. I think they want to be ignorant, so they can avoid ‘making waves’ or needing to disrupt their social circle.
As it is peach season, I thought about writing a note directing them to various sites for ‘easily digestible’ versions of the Mueller report, info on the Russian involvement in our elections and making the case for impeachment. I would include this with a bag of peaches, jam or a baked good, and maybe a small flag. Mmmmm . . . Peach!
I have to admit I have no taste for peaches – too sweet for me.
Ohio Mom
@Dog Mom: Ohio Dad is also looking for a job so I am also living that rollercoaster of anticipation, worry, disappointment, excitement, etc.
Those vague “we’re interviewing others, we’ll get back to you” can feel like a knife, and nothing is better than, “wd like you to come in for a second interview.”
It will work out eventually but in the mean time, it’s a work-out. Sending you good wishes and good luck!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Dog Mom: Go you!
frosty
@Kay: @Kay:
“They think people who follow rules are suckers, and suckers should be played.”
I’ve had co-workers who fit this description. Infuriating to watch, but at one point I sat back and thought about where they’d be at the end of their lives, having skated through the system and accomplished nothing. I preferred the way I was doing things- getting some work done that I could (occasionally) be proud of.
Elizabelle
@Dog Mom: You’re on to something.
We should have buttons with a peach on it. Quiet reassurance to others that the resistance is out there. This summer’s pink pu ssy hat.
A peach with Lily or Rosie or Thurston would be confusing to others, but even more appealing to us!
Dog Mom
My congress creep (awaiting trial too) was on the transition team, so he is a waste of time. Maybe we can gain some traction getting people to donate peachs or cans of to food pantries in ‘dishonor of his failure to uphold his congressional responsibility’. And by ‘traction’, I mean attention, press and a positive action doing something.
Any thoughts on that?
The Lodger
@Immanentize: Yay Immp!
Barbara
@Immanentize: Good news! Go Immp!
Barbara
@Mandalay: Gillibrand isn’t dealing well with being in the second or third tier, for sure, but I think your conclusions are a bit over the top. I have definitely tuned out the minutiae for a while. I was called by her campaign for a donation and I declined. I just don’t see her being stronger than Harris.
Another Scott
@Baud: Indeed. Witness the extensive coverage of her $10T climate action plan announced yesterday:
Sounds good.
I don’t know why she’s not getting visibility in the national pundit class, but she’s doing a lot of good things. I don’t think we should write her off yet (though she’s not my first or second choice). It’s still very early.
Cheers,
Scott.
glory b
@oldgold: I don’t know, I’m also looking at the history of hard votes on our side, the Clinton tax increase on the wealthy, the ACA, each time, we voted the right way and got more than decimated in the next election.
The main Congresspeople crying the loudest are the ones with nothing to lose.
I live in a safe district, but work in geg6″s territory, These folks aren’t going full throated for impeachment by a long shot. There’s A LOT to lose by an impeachment vote that doesn’t have the possibility of removal. As a Black woman, I know that there’s a lot to lose if Nancy loses her majority.
I agree, though, that the slow walk and accommodating nature of the investigations so far is a mistake. The Dems have won the subpoena appeals, I believe one judge even said there isn’t a need for impeachment, they are part of the oversight of the executive branch.
I wouldn’t be accommodating, everyone subpoenaed would testify in public especially you Hope Hicks), I’d go immediately for enforcement at the hint of push back.
Do this and the voices calling for impeachment might be mollified by a more aggressive stance.
rikyrah
Rudy Giuliani said he was forced to borrow $100,000 from President Donald Trump’s lawyer Marc Mukasey to pay his taxes after his wife tied up a joint bank account in their bitter divorce case.
Giuliani, who has been working as a lawyer for Trump free of charge, discussed the loan outside New York state court in Manhattan after his wife’s lawyer raised it at a hearing on Thursday.
Neldob
@debbie: My daughter did the rabies regime 25 years ago and it caused no screaming, maybe you can put your mind to rest on that account. She said something bit her on the foot and it looked like tiny cat teeth marks from a tiny mouth, so …
JPL
@Quiltingfool: lol. A neighbor heard me tell the Chipmunks to stop fighting and assumed that I was speaking to my sons
Aleta
@Immanentize: That’s wonderful.
To have such a father: wonderfullest.
Neldob
@glory b: I’m with you. The rich and powerful who think rules are for the weak need to get really hit hard, seriously and consistently to pay attention, and get others of their ilk to attend.
Aleta
@JPL: Did you call them Al-viiin?
Kay
@Raven:
I did too. I was a bad kid. But I got punished! I paid for all of it. I was a bad criminal :)
And I never cheated. I took the hit, because to me at that time that felt “tougher” than cheating. Cheating implies you give a shit. I didn’t.
I think about it now as a waste. She’s really bright. She could use all that invention and imagination and the work ethic that makes her sit there for 2 hours trying this dumb thing 75 different ways and do something else. You can tell this son is what my sister calls “the much-loved youngest”. He said “you are on a rampage” – he hasn’t seen a rampage.
Immanentize
@Baud:
Why is LGM so anti Franken? Pro-Gillibrand?
They have put up like 6-10 posts whining about Jane Mayer’s article like it matters at all. Gillibrand has already lost and it wasn’t just the Franken thing by a long shot.
SiubhanDuinne
@Immanentize:
So glad to hear this good news!
SiubhanDuinne
@David C Macdonald:
It’s always a pleasure to see you posting, Scotian. I hope this is a good day for you.
satby
@Baud:
Absolutely. Double whipping if they recite Wilmer platitudes.
satby
@Quinerly: same person. Scotian IRL
Immanentize
@Dog Mom: I’ve added crossing my ring and pinkie fingers to my otherwise crossed fingers for you.
Immanentize
@Kay:
Gotta add– the AP scores weren’t going to change and what she was going to do with them couldn’t happen faster. That was all vaguely risky work for “want.”. But most hearing is not about need.
Raven
@Kay: It’s hard ain’t it?
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: Haven’t checked out LGM on that topic. I don’t think it matters in the context of Gillibrand’s candidacy, which is going nowhere. But I am interested in the issue because of what it says about gender and power dynamics. Considered posting about that here, but I figured the comments would turn into a shit-show. (Not that that usually stops me!)
satby
Via MomSense:
Goes double! eric and Emma, keeping you both in my thoughts.
rikyrah
@Quinerly:
Morning to Poco and the tribe :)
Kathleen
@Immanentize: So glad to hear the positive outcome. Get some rest!
Fair Economist
@Another Scott: Net Zero by 2030 does not sound realistic to me. Amongst other things you’d have to junk most cars on the road, given that it would take several years just to switch production to all electric. I love strong policy but it’s not strong if not acheivable. This would be possible only with some crazy ambitious sequestration system like burying all crop and forest waste and I don’t see that here.
Kathleen
@David C Macdonald: Good Morning
Glad yo see you here.
Fair Economist
@Immanentize: Some of the LGM principals were absolutely anti-Franken from the get go and they and similar commenters drove everybody else from the site or to silence. They still defend even the Tweeden accusation. I have no idea why they are so convinced. Like you say, it no longer matters much, so why fight it.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker:
I think you should put up a post. Let people both discuss and go nuts. I often learn things in such BJ exchanges. If only “really, you think THAT?”
prostratedragon
@satby: They’re probably around, but tend to become more nocturnal in cities.
Ben Cisco
@Immanentize: Great news – glad to hear it!
J R in WV
@Immanentize:
Thanks for sharing the good news!!
Baud, I think Major^4 was going camping or some such out of contact activity.
Felanius Kootea
@Immanentize: Wonderful news!
Immanentize
Thank you all for myself and on behalf of my son. It is really comforting to know all you jackals are out there wondering and worrying with me. I’m sorry I couldn’t update sooner, but I was just run to the end on my leash last night.
PJ
@satby: @Anne Laurie: Coyotes do attack pets and the occasional human, with occasionally fatal results (a jogger was killed in Nova Scotia a few years back): https://urbancoyoteresearch.com/coyote-info/conflicts-research-perspective . I’ve never heard of a non-rabid fox attacking a human (or a pet, for that matter).
Dog Mom
@Ohio Mom: Best of luck to OhioDad too, and you for enduring the roller coaster!
PJ
@Barbara: Gillibrand will say whatever she thinks might get her elected.
Quinerly
@satby: I thought so when I first posted. Then his nym came up.
Another Scott
@Fair Economist: Apparently the enforceable rules would be net-zero by 2050.
https://medium.com/team-gillibrand/my-plan-to-tackle-climate-change-751ba2ae59e6
(Emphasis added.)
She also says:
I’m not sure that any of this is new, but it’s good that she (and others) are putting it out there and at least trying to talk about it. And some of this is already underway (e.g. VW’s ElectrifyAmerica is building/will build charging stations across the country.) A carbon tax would be a big change and people have to be brought around for it to have any hope of being enacted.
Cheers,
Scott.
jonas
I still think an impeachment inquiry is long overdue, but I do have a question I haven’t really seen a good answer to. Everyone says that an impeachment investigation will give the House access to information, witnesses, etc. that could help them establish if the President committed “high crimes or misdemeanors”. But what is keeping the WH and DOJ from simply stonewalling the House investigation, just like they’ve done up until now?The House committee wants X, Y, or Z documents, or wants someone to testify, and the WH just tells them to fuck off. What “special powers” does an impeachment inquiry have that would suddenly overcome Trump’s stonewalling? (And going to court is a roll of the dice — Trump’s packed the federal bench with enough hacks that it’s just as likely a case ends up before some black-robed MAGAt as in front of a professional jurist appointed by Clinton or Obama)
Another Scott
@jonas: The commentary I’ve seen is that the applicable courts will put greater weight on the House’s subpoenas and so forth from an Impeachment hearing because it’s directly outlined in Article II Section 4 of the Constitution, so there’s no way Donnie would win a court battle over it. And the court battles would be swift – he couldn’t run out the clock.
As you say, we’re off the map in many of the court decisions these days, so who knows if it’s actually the case. :-/
All we can do is follow the process – magical thinking (advocated by some others) isn’t going to save us.
Cheers,
Scott.
Dopey-o
@Chris Johnson: what is going to win the 2020 election is not “impeach” or “do not impeach and look weak.”
What is going to win the 2020 election is Putin. Both Trump and Putin have too much at stake to allow a loss to the Dems. There is no ratfvcking that will be off the table. If Trump loses, he has a reasonable fear of life in prison (or an endless battle in the courts, for which he has no liquid assests.) A loss for Putin means exposure of all his efforts to hobble western democracies and establish hegemony. Possibly a radical hit to his declining popularity and power in Russia.
So the real impeachment calculus is this: in an unprecedented environment of rampant criminality, is it better to hide the truth? Or to let the truth be told?
Chris Johnson
@jonas: That’s exactly what’s going to happen so you can’t wait for better conditions. But you can force them to do that, call them on it, until a percentage of the Trump supporters peel off. Worked on Nixon.
It’ll work because to some extent the Trump people need to be perceived as legitimate, but in the crunch they will never act like it because they can’t because they’re not.
Of course they will stonewall, what else have they ever done? It’s covering up a lot of BIG crimes and so is the control of the media, and the thing is it’s impossible to cover all the media, blackmail all the billionaires, etc. Consider this: they’ve pissed off Jeff Bezos. Bezos is a monster, a crazy man, a genuine billionaire (hell, a kabillionaire). He’s not on our side because he’s only on his own side like any billionaire, but he is NOT on Trump’s side. He owns the Washington Post. That’s one newspaper that doesn’t have to go to the Russian mob for operating capital.
Turn up the heat. It’s complicated, but we’re not done and it’s going to get impossible for the Trump/Putin side to continue to ‘win.
Chris Johnson
@Dopey-o: If you mean Putin’s going to overreach, that’s already happened. He can’t do better than installing Trump and Boris Johnson and arranging for a hard Brexit. Like you illustrate (thanks, I don’t know enough about internal politics in Russia though what little I hear confirms what you say) it’s costly, too costly, to turn stuff that’s better used as domestic counterintelligence, outward to meddle with the world.
The only way forward is through the truth, even if it’s appalling. Because it’s still appalling if you deem it too spicy for the common people… but now you’re a co-conspirator, and also can be blackmailed and pressured as one. The bad actors can taunt you, threatening to expose the whole mess, if it becomes apparent that you can’t handle the truth.
Ruckus
@Fair Economist:
Net Zero in 10 1/2 yrs is unobtainable, no matter how good an idea it might be. People around me are driving 20 yr old cars, because that’s all they can afford and we all see this if we look. People are also driving a lot of $40,000-60,000 jacked up trucks. Sure they get far better mileage than the same truck would have 10 or 20 yrs ago, it’s still bad, all things considered. An electric car takes an entirely new way to refuel than what we’ve been doing for the last 90 yrs. There aren’t enough stations, and the cost of putting a reasonable charging station in your garage adds a few grand to the price of the car and not everyone has 220 current at home or a garage. Not near enough people can afford all that. And electric pickup trucks? How many of those are for sale?
Flowery ideas are grand, but practicality is vastly far more important. People who have the first without the second are useless other than as cheerleaders for change.
J R in WV
@PJ:
We had a very large and self-confident tom cat who attacked a fox — fox was creeping up on a cedar tree where the yard birds roosted, and Ralph knew those chickens were NOT fox-friendly fowl… unfortunately the fox was about to drown Ralph in the tiny creek, when wife, hearing the screaming and carrying on, appeared on scene with a post-hole digger handle, a 6 foot long ash pole, with which she clubbed the fox.
She carried Ralph into the house, and dried him off… she reported Ralph was shaking and she couldn’t tell if it was from the very cold creek water or from rage that the fox had him down. He didn’t attack large animals again after that. Note that the fox didn’t jump Ralph, Ralph jumped the fox…
debbie
@Immanentize:
This is the best damn thing I’ve read all day! Yay to you both!
Anne Laurie
@PJ
Dead thread, but: Local veterinarians did a study on the scat of coyotes established in the next town over, and found ‘between 20 & 40 percent’ of their diets was domestic cats. There’s a story on the news every few weeks, especially in early spring / late fall (mating season / when this year’s cubs are learning to feed themselves) about coyotes attacking small dogs in their own back yards — or, more rarely, while leashed & walking in a park or wildlife reserve.
If you have a pet under approximately 20lbs, do *not* take the risk of coyotes cavalierly!