Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

All your base are belong to Tunch.

Republicans in disarray!

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

No one could have predicted…

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

The willow is too close to the house.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

I did not have telepathic declassification on my 2022 bingo card.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

The revolution will be supervised.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Detroit DNC Debate, Night One, Thread Two

Reader Interactions

190Comments

  6. 6.

    MomSense

    My meaningless hot take is that none of the candidates on the stage tonight read as presidential to me. No one is inspiring confidence or calm for me.

  7. 7.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Baud: An annoying voice.

    I think the moderators are playing to the one-percenters to keep them in the game and keep the horse race confusing. I’m looking forward to the accounting afterward of who got how many words/minutes.

  10. 10.

    jl

    Not sure anyone wants to hear a bright spot in this thing, but I think from what I’ve heard, the candidates are doing a good job of not taking the ‘how about you Democrats attack each other’ prompts that seem to be in every other question. Given the time constraints, they are making the best points they can rather than just attacking each other. But we;ll see if that keeps up.

  14. 14.

    WaterGirl

    If I’m ever in a room with Bullock, I’m counting on one of you holding me back, because I just want to smack him. Seriously.

  17. 17.

    Anne Laurie

    @satby: I agree their team seems really… low-energy, tonight.

    I think they’re waiting for the moderators to ask a question that actually means something, and/or for a candidate to make a good point. Tonight’s Fvck me? No, fvck YOU!!! shoutfest is doing nobody any favors.

    So far, IMO, Buttigieg is doing a really good job of making the point he’s younger & calmer than all the elderly white dudes. And Warren is doing the Strong Mom thing, where she doesn’t shout or finger-wave, but when the boyz or the audience gets too rowdy, she shuts them down quickly. Both stances are gonna look good to not-yet-committed-to-any-candidate viewers!

  22. 22.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Just saw the Warren-Delaney “why run on what we can’t do?” moment. Delaney looked like the cartoon character who just got whacked in the head with a frying pan.

  23. 23.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Everyone seems shouty except for Buttigeig, O’Rourke, and Princess Woo.

    ETA: Klobuchar too.

  25. 25.

    Keith P.

    Every time one of the moderators asks a candidate how s/he will get XYZ passed with GOP opposition, just remember that Trump’s answer to it going the other way was “I get along with everyone. I make deals, that’s what I do.” When has anyone ever asked Trump about “So what happened to getting along with everyone?”

  28. 28.

    Socraticsilence

    @WaterGirl:

    Eh, he’s a good guy, and he raised a good point on the Green New Deal which was basically a press release

  29. 29.

    BruceFromOhio

    If you let the ads load on balloon-juice.com, it’s quite an amazing variation. Adsense seems to think I’m an aging, gun-toting lesbian pet owner.

    Which is not really all that far from the mark. OK, fun’s over, back to blocking ads.

  30. 30.

    MomSense

    @jl:

    She’s one of my least favorites on the issue so but her presence and demeanor is coming across better than the rest.

    I feel like Williamson is going to transmogrify at any moment.

  31. 31.

    Captain C

    Marianne Williamson looks like a stoned Gilda Radner character. She also hits the 5-minute crazy mark in about a minute.

  32. 32.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Baud:
    He’s a perpetual backbencher who will always be a Rep. I’m a constituent of his for the record

  33. 33.

    misterpuff

    If Trump is everyone’s Racist Uncle, Williamson is everyone’s HippyDippy Aunt. Wonkiness will get us nowhere if you don’t feel it.

  34. 34.

    satby

    @Anne Laurie:

    So far, IMO, Buttigieg is doing a really good job of making the point he’s younger & calmer than all the elderly white dude

    One of his strengths, very similar to the last (real) president we used to have.

  35. 35.

    Socraticsilence

    Buttigieg appears to have made a conscious choice to be the “not shouty” tier 1 candidate.

    I don’t see how Sanders can possibly be winning over new folks who aren’t already converts with this approach.

  37. 37.

    jl

    Adsense seems to think I’m a bald fat couch potato with lots of wrinkled skin problems who has a hard time getting auto loans and financing mortgages. I apparently need a lot of credit repair.

    I try to ignore the ads to keep my self-esteem up.

  46. 46.

    TenguPhule

    @WaterGirl:

    If I’m ever in a room with Bullock, I’m counting on one of you holding me back, because I just want to smack him.

    Hold you back? There will be a line behind you.

  55. 55.

    Mandalay

    Heh…..”I wrote the damn bill“.

    Not that I wish Sanders any good fortune, but that was a doozy.

  56. 56.

    Misterpuff

    Beto bugs me with his Kennedy cadence and syntax. It seems a pale imitation of RFK without Bobby’s soul.

  59. 59.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    in other news….

    Jake Sherman @ JakeSherman
    NEWS … Texas GOP Rep. Mike Conaway is retiring after 15 years in Congress. This is the fifth retirement in two weeks.

    wasn’t he Nunes’ number two on the Intel C’tee?

  64. 64.

    L85NJGT

    Your chosen candidate is a neo-liberal sellout and party hack.

    The candidate I haven’t landed on yet is the greatest Democrat since FDR.

  68. 68.

    satby

    And this is why I like him, he keeps his eye on the ball:

    Pete Buttigieg shot for the middle: “We have all put out highly similar visions on climate. It is all theoretical, he said. We will deal with climate if and only if we win the presidency, if and only if we beat Donald trump.”

  71. 71.

    MomSense

    @Mary G:

    I’m switching to Durrell’s in Corfu. I’m rewatching the series and left off at the traveling circus episode.

  73. 73.

    jl

    CNN really wants to play up the reality show angle of the debate. Both in the questions and the abject political hack and horse race tout garbage they are running during the break.

  78. 78.

    WaterGirl

    @Mary G: The more Joe name drops Barack, the more he cheapens what I believe to have been a real and warm relationship with President Obama. I think they were like brothers. I wonder what Barack thinks about Joe’s name dropping.

  83. 83.

    Socraticsilence

    @Baud:

    Can we put a pin on that until Biden and Bernie go head to head? I want Biden to force Bernie to talk shit about Obama and kill his own campaign

  92. 92.

    jl

    I’m supporting Warren, so biased, but I think she is making very good points, and very clearly, and explaining things in a way that will prepare people for her pitch in later debates when she has more time.

    I really hate the moderators tailoring questions for each candidate. First, you have to spend more time listening to the moderator spout BS. Second, makes a bad debate format even worse by pushing it even further towards being a joint press conference.

    What is wrong with all the candidates answering the same question.

    And to repeat one bright spot is that all the candidates are resisting the ‘why don’t you Democrats attack each other directly’ prompts in the questions. And that seems to be every other question.

  97. 97.

    PsiFighter37

    @L85NJGT: Or maybe these nutters are realizing that their nuttiness is much less fun when they are in the minority. Whatever it may be, I will take as many House retirements as we can get. You can bet very few Democrats are going to bow out this cycle (although the idiots as DSA and Justice Democrats are having fun trying to primary a bunch of NY congresspeople just ’cause they can).

  99. 99.

    PsiFighter37

    @WaterGirl: I’m pretty sure BHO is quite chill and doesn’t take it personally one bit. No Drama Obama can separate the professional and personal, I’m sure, especially since he’s out of the game himself. YMMV but that would be my take.

  101. 101.

    Martin

    Just a gentle reminder that no matter how bad these debates may seem, nobody in either one is going to assure the viewers that they have big dick. So, you know, look on the bright side here.

  102. 102.

    geg6

    @satby:

    I do not see what you see in him. I don’t get it at all. I find him extremely canned and as exciting as white bread. This is my first extended exposure to him. I now think I understand why African Americans aren’t enamored by him.

  106. 106.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @WaterGirl:
    Did you ever watch Mythbusters? The two hosts, Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, despite working together for 13 or 14 years, don’t actually like each other much. On the show, they appeared to get along. It’s not that they hate each other, it’s just that their personalities are so different, they just don’t care for each much. They had a good working relationship.

    Perhaps Biden and Obama had that and weren’t particularly friends?

  108. 108.

    jl

    Stupid question from Tapper to Sanders on foreign policy. You used the same trite and commonly used 9 word phrase as Trump dd once, so how can you be different from Trump? Yuck.

    Half the questions are BS gotcha questions or sad attempts to get up a reality show moment.
    And, good news continues that the candidates are avoiding prompts to directly attack each other in a destructive way.

  109. 109.

    jk

    @MomSense:

    none of the candidates on the stage tonight read as presidential to me

    To my eyes and ears, they all come across as more presidential than Joe Foot-in-Mouth Biden.

  110. 110.

    L85NJGT

    @ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) :

    He’s up there on the dais and beating the hustings with the rest of the schmucks. If he was the one, he’d be running on his own line like St. Ralph the Pure.

    Worst hostile takeover of a political party EVER.

  111. 111.

    satby

    @geg6: YMMV. And the black people I know here in S.Bend generally support him too. Admittedly, I only know my neighbors and coworkers, not the whole town. And all of us think (hope) it will be Harris that gets the nom and Pete gets VP or a cabinet position. Except for one Warren supporter.
    No one is rooting for Biden as top choice.

  114. 114.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @geg6: I’m not enamored of Buttigieg, but I was extremely impressed when he was asked about the problems with the SB police force and said, roughly, I fell short. If Biden could have said something like that when his record was questioned, instead of 57 variants on “HOW DARE YOU!”, I think he’d be in a stronger position today

  116. 116.

    Keith P.

    @satby: But is it better than TPM’s, which, if you’re not paying active attention to the debate on TV, tells you jack shit about what actually goes on, interspersed with periodic tomes about what he thinks the race *should* be about independent of the actual candidates. Plus layers and layers of ads, along with the requisite content that slides the actual content off half the screen and delayed full-page ad. Fuck, dude, I’m not subscribing to your damn site no matter how much shit you code into your web site.

  118. 118.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Cheryl Rofer: here’s hoping she brought a binder and limbered up her throwin’ arm

    (I’m not even watching, just reading that grated on me- edited, dammit)

  120. 120.

    L85NJGT

    Lloyd Bentsen had the zing of a VP debate with a JFK name drop. That shit just doesn’t matter.

  122. 122.

    Leto

    Oh, the reason to stay in Afghanistan, per Higgybooper, is to avert a humanitarian crisis? Just say you want us to stay there forever. Ffs…

    And Steve bullocks? Gtfo with that “all options on the table” BS.

  123. 123.

    Jeffro

    Checking in late here, but I see I didn’t miss anything…

    Wouldn’t it have been smart for any of these folks, top/middle/no tier, to have just bought 2 minutes of air time and said, “Hi, I’m candidate X and here are my three top priorities for getting America back on track after once trumpov and his enablers are out of office.. 1, 2, 3. Again, that’s 1, 2, 3. To find out more or make a donation, please visit candidate X dot com. See – I just saved you two hours of precious summer relaxation! (wink) Thanks and let’s talk again after Labor Day weekend.”

    Or go with the short version: “I’ll never be on Twitter much less embarrass the country multiple times a day on it, and I refuse to be in a pretend ‘debate’ with 9 other candidates and Republican-phrased questions. See you in September!”

  124. 124.

    Nicole

    @Omnes Omnibus: Fillers in her cheeks, I’m guessing. You need someone really good to do it well, or you get… well, what she has.

    (as people age, the bones thin out and that’s part of what makes skin sag, so fillers are the current thing to try to recreate a younger looking face with the heavier bones of youth)

  125. 125.

    Martin

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Buttigieg is a good guy. I don’t think he should be president in 2020, but I really want him moving up. Indiana is in desperate need of a governor who isn’t just a complete fucking asshole.

  126. 126.

    satby

    What an asshole: The Sanders campaign is already starting to fundraise off his “I wrote the damn bill” moment:
    Bernie Sanders
    (@BernieSanders)
    Don’t tell me what’s in Medicare for All. I wrote the damn bill! #DemDebate

    Make a contribution and get our sticker now –> https://t.co/cGNDyKXZ5k

    July 31, 2019

  127. 127.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Baud:
    I know right? I was shocked when I first found out too.

    @L85NJGT:

    I really do hope somebody hammers him. I’m not watching the debate right now

  130. 130.

    WaterGirl

    @Leto:

    And Steve bullocks? Gtfo with that “all options on the table” BS.

    I’m pretty sure he got that from the Presidential Candidates for Dummies book.

  135. 135.

    satby

    @Martin: he is a good guy. His calmness may make him sound “canned” but he says what he authentically thinks and feels. Which is why he has such a fan base in his city.
    Plus good point here: Pete Buttigieg, who served in Afghanistan, committed to withdrawing all US troops from the country by the end of his first year in office.
    “We will withdraw. We have to,” Buttigieg said, adding, “We’re pretty close to waking up to the news of a casualty in Afghanistan of someone who was not born on 9/11.”

  136. 136.

    misterpuff

    Bullock Just Bombed, Dropped the Football and Lost the Package. I repeat Lost The Package.

  137. 137.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: Oh, FFS. Say it ain’t so.

    *Grosse Pointe girl*

    @Anne Laurie: Erk? There was a “Grosse Pointe lady” skit? I just remember being up in Alaska in 1984 and whenever someone heard that I was from GP, shouted happily, “oh, like Maggie!” – who I guess was a character from “Northern Exposure”, if anyone remembers that one.

  139. 139.

    L85NJGT

    Didn’t one of Joe’s campaigns blowup when they got cribbing lines from Neil Kinnock? If that sort of non-sense knocked him out of the box in his prime, I don’t think he’s going to be a tough out this time round.

  140. 140.

    Yarrow

    Marianne Williamson is the comic relief for this debate. I love watching her crazy. She shouldn’t be on that stage but since she is I might as well get a laugh.

  141. 141.

    WaterGirl

    I am now running 9 minutes behind. Did I just Bullock self-destruct right in front of my eyes? (she asked gleefully)

  142. 142.

    Martin

    @satby: I don’t think he sounds canned. He’s always sounded quite authentic, wicked smart, and genuinely motivated to make things better. I like him. He’s infinitely more qualified than Trump.

    But elections, like the stock market, aren’t a measuring machine, they’re a weighing machine, and I think there are equally capable candidates with more experience to choose from this round. Lets make him governor or get him in the senate.

  143. 143.

    Yarrow

    @Martin: Agree. I thought Mayor Pete was running to increase his profile so he could run for Gov or Senator but then his campaign caught fire.

  145. 145.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @satby:

    “We will withdraw. We have to,” Buttigieg said, adding, “We’re pretty close to waking up to the news of a casualty in Afghanistan of someone who was not born on 9/11.”

    The thing about that is, Afghanistan is partly the way it is because we fucked around with them in the 80s to screw the Soviets over. I’ve read stories about girls getting to go to school there and I wonder what’s going to happen to them if we pull out and the Taliban takes over again

  147. 147.

    Cheryl Rofer

  148. 148.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow: I’d be perfectly happy to see the bottom 16+ “candidates for the nomination” continue on in their own Netflix series, “Still Better Than trumpov But Hoo Boy…”. They could babble at each other after each GOP-phrased question, keep getting cut off by CNN moderators, and…well…that’s it. They have to stay at their podiums until dehydration overcomes them and they faint and are carried off.

    That’s it, that’s the whole series.

    Can we please move on to ‘Top 5’ debates like, yesterday, DNC?

  149. 149.

    misterpuff

    Ryan a secret Alice Cooper fan…deep cut

    But you and me ain’t no movie stars.
    What we are is what we are.
    We share a bed,
    some lovin’,
    and TV, yeah.
    And that’s enough for a workin’ man.
    What I am is what I am.
    And I tell you, babe,
    well that’s enough for me.

  150. 150.

    satby

    @Yarrow: he was, and that he’s gotten this far probably surprised even him. But he’s a good voice to have speaking for the party right now, so I’m delighted he’s in it and making the case.

  153. 153.

    Jeffro

    @Cheryl Rofer: ‘horse race’…’survived’…’voted off the island’

    Cheryl, I thought you said you got your CNN vaccine shot earlier this spring? LOL

  155. 155.

    geg6

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I did not see the first debate, so I’ll take your word for his handling of that. But his answer on that tonight wasn’t impressive. I keep trying to see what everyone here is raving about but I don’t know how to read the code, I guess. He’d be better as a Senate or House candidate, I think. I don’t see or hear “president” when he is the focus. He needs some seasoning and practice, IMHO. I have a lesser but similar reaction to Harris. I don’t quite see what so many others here do. But I admit I don’t have much exposure to her. So perhaps she could change my mind. So far, she hasn’t. I think more time in the Senate would be good for her. The mistakes and backtracking she has done have struck me as inexperienced. Not a fatal flaw but worrying.

  156. 156.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: My daughter thought my Bernie impression was pretty good earlier but then again how hard is it to do Bernie?

    Now, Tim Ryan…John/Jack/Jim Hickenlooper…Seth Moulton…THOSE are challenges right there. And not good ones.

  157. 157.

    zhena gogolia

    @Miss Bianca:

    I loved Northern Exposure! Maggie was a pill.

    I liked Marilyn and the guy who owned the bar (John Cullum, can’t remember the character’s name) and his wife or girlfriend — Shelley!

  160. 160.

    Miss Bianca

    @Cheryl Rofer: I’m cool with that. I wish Hick would have saved his fire for the CO Senate race. As it is, we’ve got a baker’s dozen of candidates who don’t particularly stand out. : (

  161. 161.

    Yarrow

    @satby: I like having younger people on the stage. I like his calm demeanor and his background is interesting. He’s smart. I also like some of the ways he frames ideas that I haven’t heard as much from other candidates. I think he’s a big talent for the future for Dems. Don’t think he’s ready now but glad he’s out there speaking.

    I’m mostly okay with most of the candidates being out there. I’d like to see the field start to get a bit smaller but I like having lots of people with different ideas out there.

  163. 163.

    satby

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: we have been there since soon after 9-11, we went to go after bin Laden, who Obama successfully eliminated, and it’s the longest war we’ve ever been part of. Hell, we defeated the Axis powers faster. Now we just continue to make it worse.. That country needs to determine it’s own future, with foreign aid from us, but no more military intervention.
    Edit: and female education is an issue all over that area, remember Mala is from Pakistan.

  164. 164.

    Leto

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: A large part is going to depend on if the people there will fight to keep them out. I don’t know. It’s a large country, lot of land to secure. They’ll continue to receive assistance from us, as well as advisors on how to operate. But it’s not known as the “Graveyard of Empires” for nothing.

  167. 167.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    osie duffy rice @ jduffyrice
    35m35 minutes ago
    i am……baffled because I have truly never once heard a moderator ask republicans how they are going to sell their cockamamie nonsensical ideas to progressives?

  169. 169.

    Miss Bianca

    @Leto:

    But it’s not known as the “Graveyard of Empires” for nothing.

    Yeah, them and Vietnam. I wish to Christ our leaders were more attuned to the lessons of history. Both these countries have been notorious for *centuries* for kicking the asses of much larger countries that tried to mess with them.

  172. 172.

    Nicole

    “I hope at some point I captured your imagination” is the “please clap” of this primary.

  174. 174.

    Yarrow

    @Miss Bianca: I’m upset with some of these people who are polling at 1% who could run for Senate races and instead are running these longshot vanity races for president. Hickenlooper sounds like he would have had a good shot at Senate. Instead he’s an also-ran on this stage. Maybe he’ll jump into the Senate race but it seems like it’s almost too late.

  175. 175.

    hilts

    Finally, night one of the atrocity exhibition / shitshow in the books and now CNN has enough motherfucking analysts on its set to screw up the Earth’s rotational axis.

  176. 176.

    Leto

    @Miss Bianca: Agreed.

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: There’s also the issue of: does the population have faith/trust in the government? Do they think they’re better off under the current government or the Taliban? There’s a myriad of factors at play here. While we are a very big factor, we’re not the only one. We also have to have an exit strategy for our own people. It can’t be an endless war.

  177. 177.

    Ohio Mom

    @hilts: Not watching the post mortem. Saving whatever tolerance I have left for CNN for tomorrow’s three hour marathon.

  178. 178.

    Leto

    @Miss Bianca: Also regarding the wish our leaders could learn: American exceptionalism and American arrogance. Same same basically. We knew that we weren’t going to repeat the same mistakes, even as we repeated the same mistakes. And then we continued because to pull out now would be to say that all the sacrifices of our dead meant nothing! Or something similar to that. Insanity.

  182. 182.

    Mike in DC

    I’m hoping there will be only 12-14 candidates who make the criteria for the next round of debates. That would be 2 nights of 6-7 candidates, rather than 10 per night. More time to answer questions and more issues to touch upon.

  183. 183.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @satby: @Leto: @Leto:

    These are all great points. I know we can’t stay there forever. I just hate the idea of abandoning innocent people, especially since we played a big part in their misery in the past. Afganistan wasn’t always a crazy theocracy. I’ve seen old photos, as recently as the 70s, it looked no different than any other city in the West at the time.

  184. 184.

    Jay

    The State Department wasted $103 million in an urgent effort to build a security compound in Afghanistan before abandoning the project with almost nothing to show for it, the agency’s inspector general said in a report issued Tuesday.
    The project, which was terminated in early 2017, started three years earlier amid increasing security threats after the Obama administration began a military drawdown in the country. Guards contracted by the Diplomatic Security bureau, which is responsible for protecting U.S. officials and facilities worldwide, were housed more than two miles from the U.S. Embassy in Kabul. The guards had to travel the distance four times a day in convoys.

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/world/two-us-troops-shot-dead-by-afghan-soldier-at-southern-army-base/2019/07/30/fde6545e-b289-11e9-acc8-1d847bacca73_story.html?outputType=amp

    (CNN) More civilians in Afghanistan were killed by Afghan and NATO forces than by the Taliban and other militant groups in the first half of 2019, a UN mission to the country said Tuesday.

    Conflict in Afghanistan has caused 3,812 civilian casualties — including 1,366 deaths — in the first six months of the year, the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan said in a report.

    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/30/asia/afghanistan-nato-taliban-intl-scli/index.html

  186. 186.

    Another Scott

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: The Afghan borders are artificial and there are many people who live on both sides of border who want nothing to do with “democracy” and “women’s rights” and “communism” and all the rest. And they’ve felt that way for a very long time.

    We can’t impose our will on the world any more. We can help others of good will to fight back against violent theocratic ideas, and the like, but we can’t do it on our own. What happens in Afghanistan is going to depend on the Afghans, the Pakistanis, the Iranians, the Turkmen, the Tajiks, the Chinese, and maybe the Indians (though they don’t share a border). The Afghan government has had nearly 18 years to get its act together. Apparently like the South Vietnamese government, they figure that they can just keep muddling through as long as Uncle Sam is there to be their protector. They need to be involved – at a serious level – in the peace talks and not assume that the US is going to prevent any compromises they don’t like.

    Yes, the society may move “backwards” and in ways that we don’t like. That’s not a reason for us to stay when we can’t “fix” the problems there.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  187. 187.

    Jay

    @Another Scott:

    Apparently like the South Vietnamese government, they figure that they can just keep muddling through as long as Uncle Sam is there to be their protector.

    There hasn’t been an Afghan Government since the early 1980’s. There have only been assorted Warlords/Druglords who could seize the “throne” or were appointed to the “throne” by outsiders.

    The Afghans had a chance, and spoke up, at the First Loya Jurga, but Dolt43 was in such a rush to kill Saddam that he handed the country over to the same Warlords, Drugdealers, Warcriminals/Radical Safilists who had destroyed the country in the first place, then added the vulture capitalists of the “Contractors” and the tender mercies of the College Rethuglicans.

    And there hasn’t been a single serious attempt at a reset since then, just triage.

  188. 188.

    Another Scott

    @Jay: It’s easy to think that W could have done things differently, but he probably couldn’t. Not without another few hundred thousand US troops. We let the warlords get heavily involved in the government because we really didn’t have any choice. Of course, W’s premature shifting of resources to the buildup for the Iraq invasion only made things worse…

    The idea that it was the US’s responsibility to somehow “fix” Afghanistan after the Soviets left is incorrect, IMO. We could support setting up a new, more sensible, more friendly government, but we couldn’t fix the country by ourselves. Their neighbors would have had to have been supportive, and they weren’t.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  189. 189.

    Jay

    @Another Scott:

    The democratic forces kept the warlords away from the Loya Jurga for the first two days, while they discussed a new Constitution and reforms. On the third day, US SOF escorted the Warlords to prime positions on the podium, kicking off the RAWA female delegates and Zalmay Kalizad, ( US) took the stage, ruling out Shah and Rabinni,

    After pressure, Northern Alliance-controlled members of the National Directorate of Security were permitted free access to the loya jirga deliberations, even without being a delegate. As a response, delegates to the loya jirga were subjected to intimidation and surveillance by Afghan warlords and intelligence services, said Human Rights Watch: “Warlords not appointed to the assembly were allowed inside the tent where the Loya Jirga is in session, mingling with the delegates and threatening those who called for their exclusion or opposed their agenda” According to delegates interviewed by Human Rights Watch, “A number of the most prominent warlords gathered Monday night to divide power in the next government.” [5]

    Eventually the US will tire, go home and the Taliban will be back in charge, with all their friends.

  190. 190.

    J R in WV

    Don’t forget, that “Northern Aliance” group of warlords was who the CIA hooked up with in the immediate aftermath of the 9-11 attacks, and with meager support from the CIA and airstrikes and such pushed the Taliban, which had nearly overcome all of Afganistan at that point, out of power.

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