"Just as National Review (@NRO ) defended apartheid, just as you defended segregation, you now defend Israel's oppression of Palestinians' basic rights. It's a tradition for you guys." – @PeterBeinart to @RichLowry pic.twitter.com/afYrUVsoNs
— Waleed Shahid (@_waleedshahid) August 19, 2019
This is an interesting couple of minutes of video, where Peter Beinart (a practicing Jew) points out that anyone who visits the West Bank understands the inhumanity of the conditions there. Rich Lowry, of course, falls back on Palestinian terrorism as a rationale for doing nothing. (Violence in the service of politics that Lowery endorses is “freedom fighting”. All the rest is “terrorism”.)
I don’t know if this will make any difference, but the mere fact that this conversation is going on is a product of Bibi’s inability to hop off of Trump’s dick for even a second. If Tlaib and Omar had visited the West Bank as planned, I’m sure they would have made some noise, but I doubt this much attention would have been paid.
Field Canning: Useful Technique For Camping, Emergencies, Etc.
schrodingers_cat
Dictators silence dissent. That’s what they do. Speaking of which Modi doesn’t want you to tweet this image of a bleeding chinar leaf
which says I stand with Kashmir. Its made by the artist Shubnum Khan who has given the permission to redistribute it and use it.
Kay
The worst political reporting in the country strikes again. WTF with “pro-growth”. Everyone but the far Right is “anti-growth” in NYTimes world. Why add the editorial comment? These people have once again been completely discredited with the giant, obscene tax cut for the rich and we’re STILL describing them in terms they dictate? None of it happened! Nothing they promised happened! What would it take, do you think? We had the CEO’s admit yesterday (even though they’re probably full of shit) that this dogma does not work. Even them! The big winners under this agenda threw us a bone. But media will still doggedly repeat this bullshit, for eternity.
different-church-lady
Steisand effect in full effect.
patrick II
Maybe if someone paid the cost of uniforms, assault rifles, tanks and helicopters for the Palestinians they wouldn’t have to be “terrorists” anymore, but a legitimate army defending the rights of their people.
Patricia Kayden
Yes, the National Review has always been on the side of the oppressors. William Buckley was a ln infamous segregationist. His son voted for President Obama though so there is hope.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/133570/amp
Good on Beinart for calling Lowry out.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: also
I assume this means this is on Pompeo’s schedule as Secretary of State, not some personal outing as he prepares to run for office (Gov or Sen) from Kansas.
rikyrah
@Kay:
NOTHING but a bunch of clowns who have been proven to be wrong at every turn.
Ridiculous!
Haberman is nothing but a stenographer.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Kay: @rikyrah: I’m curious to see whether MAGA Haberman’s tweet is getting ratioed, but not curious enough to go seek it out on my own. FTFNYT. Fuckem.
Ceterum censeo factionem Republicanam esse delendam.
raven
Check out this rap sign interpreter!
Mandalay
@mistermix:
My impression was that the roles were reversed, but I admit that I haven’t actually watched the video yet.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Patricia Kayden: When an American Orthodox Jew offers this view on how Palestinians are treated on the region, people should fucking listen. Especially after he explains that it is informed by seeing it live, himself. I imagine that it is indeed a transformational experience, and I’d kick in for a fund to ship assholes like Lowery there to enjoy it themselves.
@Mandalay: Eww.
Ohio Mom
Peter Beinart must be a lonely man. Most who are as actively involved in and committed to their local Jewish community as he is are rabidly anti-Palestinian.
When his kids come home from their day school social studies lessons, he must have to debrief them.
It is the elephant in the room of American Judaism. The organized community grows more and more “Israel right or wrong,” not noticing how many Jews are disgusted at what goes on in Israel. They quietly excuse themselves and then the mucky-mucks at the national organization’s scratch their heads at their declining memberships.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat: Thanks for this. Also, thanks for your posting on Kashmir. With the crackdown, I have not seen any recent news stories. One of the last was about China, Interestingly enough, urging caution.
Mandalay
@Patricia Kayden:
Beinart’s comments on Israel are a relative rarity in the media wilderness. Sadly, Bill Maher’s wacko views on BDS are mainstream, and I have yet to hear any host on MSNBC ever criticize Israel’s actions over Palestine. (I’m not saying it has never happened, but they seem to devote all their time and energy to going after the Trump Administration at the expense of everything else going on in the world.)
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Damn. I’d get tongue tied with my mouth, my hands would be a knotted up mess.
edited
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Right? The state that was nearly destroyed by this same dogma. They are recovering, like after a natural disaster. “Pro growth” my ass. They “grew” nothing but 17 billionaires.
Kasich left for his gig at cable tv and…6 billion dollars he said was there came up missing. It’s a fantasy. They had quickly raise user fees and sales taxes, because it was fake. So they taxed poor and working class to make up for it. They’re bad at… money. It’s not just “neutral” – they are affirmatively a disaster.
jl
Gingrich might be lost and disoriented in one of his alternative history novels. Or he is lost and disoriented in one inside his head.
Below is an Onion article, but it is pretty accurate.
NEWS IN BRIEF
Newt Gingrich Slams ‘New York Times’ 1619 Project As Shameless Abolitionist Propaganda
https://www.theonion.com/newt-gingrich-slams-new-york-times-1619-project-as-sh-1837374390?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SF&/setsession
chris
I pay much more attention to what Habermann reports rather than how she does it. She is often first with interesting stuff.
Ohio Mom
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: I wish I could agree with you. Those active in the Jewish community visit Israel a lot, individually and in groups; it’s not unheard of for the occasional young person to volunteer for the IDF (I can name three off the top of my head and they are from circles I go out of my way to avoid).
If your eyes are open, you don’t have to leave Israel proper to see how poorly the Palestinians who are actual Israeli citizens are treated, let alone venture into the occupied territories (by the way, call them “occupied territories” in an American synagogue and you will get raised eyebrows. They are the “West Bank” and “Gaza”).
But their eyes are not opened. Too much peer pressure against opening them and too much defending against cognitive dissonance.
Ohio Mom
@Ohio Mom: God I am in a bad mood today. It’s this headache. I’m going to take an aspirin and lie down. See you all later.
Kay
Howard Fineman
This is such a stupid game. He knows they’ll play it so he goads them into it. He’s never going to admit he lied about the polls. So he’ll repeat the lies for a bigger audience and Bret Baier gets to say he “called him out” and they repeat the whole thing next week on a different “controversy”. It is LITERALLY reality tv. None of this is real. The only question is if both Trump and they know it or is it just Trump that knows it. My guess is “both”. Who else benefits? Outside of Baier and Trump? No one.
Brachiator
If you have not seen it already, the documentary The Gatekeepers is worth searching out. From the Mother Jones review…
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/film-review-gatekeepers-documentary-israel-shin-bet-palestine/
rikyrah
@raven:
That was a fabulous video. So much fun :)
rikyrah
@Kay:
came.up.missing.
that does some them all up
Fleeting Expletive
This might have been the first time I’ve ever seen Rich Lowry speak, and I didn’t make it to the end. Who books these people? Any asshole this rude, and gross, and just nasty getting a tv minute is obscene. Best turd in a real special bowl, I guess.
Duane
@Patricia Kayden: Lowery and Monica Crowley were part of the Mcglaughlin Group show for years. They were smug jerks then but now they’ve lost their damned minds.
jl
@chris: The editorializing, that is invariably very friendly to large corporate and wealthy interests, is irritating and drearily predictable by big name reporters in corporate media, even when their reporting on events is good. I think people are upset because they see it, rightly IMHO, as a kind of social engineering. I think it does harm their ability to report on big picture issues.
The recent experiments in reactionary tax cutting and government slashing economic policies have been disastrous, and the implications are neglected, and doesn’t leave a dent in their editorializing that is attached to the news stories. i wonder if they can even see it, they are so in the tank.
Big stories for upcoming election might be missed. For example, the counterproductive nature of the 2017 GOP rich person’s tax cut is being missed. Growing evidence that it has harmed, not helped domestic US real investment. National income is stalling, and diverging away from GDP measures of growth. Won’t hit the headline line GDP numbers that seem to be the only thing most reporters understand or know about, but might show up in stalling real personal income before the election.
Ian G.
@Brachiator:
The Gatekeepers is a fascinating documentary. It becomes extraordinarily depressing when the topic is how they tried and failed to defuse right-wing Jewish terrorism in the lead up to the assassination of Yitzak Rabin. And then you realize that the radical right of a generation ago is now the Israeli government. No wonder there’s this air of resignation in the tone of each of the former Shin Bet interviewed.
The Dangerman
Not sure who’s getting serviced in that relationshop; seems like bilateral relations to me. Can you have a circle jerk with only 2 people? Seems like a line jerk to me.
rikyrah
@rikyrah:
Sorry…
SUM them all up…
jl
With regard to my recent comments about probability of upcoming economic downturn of some sort, either growth recession similar to 2015-2016, or actual recession, seems like the models are all over the map now. I see forecasting models range from around 3 percent to over 50 percent chance over next year to 19 months.
Lower probabilities seem to be from models that emphasize GDP growth. But the 2017 GOP tax cut may have knocked that indicator wonky in terms of predicting domestic US consumer demand, which is not only thing keeping US economy growing right now. Subtext of Trumpster economic statements and Trump’s tweets is that they are in a blind panic about continued economic growth until 2020 election. But they are always wrong, so maybe we are going to go into extended and renewed phase of increased economic growth? Though, where that would come from is beyond me. All sighs are for growth slow down, if not recession by 2020.
jl
@The Dangerman: Seems like two dogs joined with no head, with the two tails trying to wag the body from each end. A disturbing picture.
Ruckus
@jl:
You make it sound like they are just stupid rather than evil. They know what they are doing, they think that it will be good for them. Short term it probably will be, but it’s like burning down an entire city block to get rid of 4 weeds at one corner.
Brachiator
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/kushners-threat-to-palestine-an-interview-with-norman-finkelstein/
rikyrah
Marcus H. Johnson (@marcushjohnson) Tweeted:
Team Bernie deciding to “go to war” with Warren was inevitable. They have the same base of college educated whites and Bernie feels they occupy the same ideological space. Unfortunately for both, they aren’t doing well with Black voters in the south. So may not matter anyway https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1163841434862149632?s=17
TenguPhule
@patrick II:
Point of order, they’d still be committing atrocities if they’re better armed.
TTT
The low expectations held by some for American Congresswomen are really startling. There is no shortage of NGOs that book tours to the West Bank. Omar and Tlaib HAD to choose Miftah, which really did say Jews drink blood and suicide bombers are heroes and did republish Neo-Nazi articles?
They both also chose to reblog a cartoon defending them drawn by a Holocaust denier.
Lowry is right: if the “economic anxiety” argument doesn’t hold water for Trump voters’ racist craziness, then it doesn’t excuse the Palestinians and it absolutely doesn’t excuse members of the AMERICAN government. I hear there’s a rather large library for Congress, it might have taken Tlaib a whole 30 seconds to find someone else who criticized Israel without drawing Neo-Nazis into it.
And of course, Beinart can’t argue that point so he retreats to “you just don’t want Palestinians to have rights!” and “you just can’t take criticism of Israel!”.
Plenty of people all over the spectrum criticized Barack Obama. A pic of Obama as a witch doctor with a bone through his nose isn’t “criticism,” no matter how much the guy waving that poster might try to splutter and backpedal into “uh, uhh, so I guess I must have touched a nerve, you’re proving me right!”
This is separate from the issue of Bibi banning them, which was outrageous and shameful. But they’re doing their best to obscure what could have been a truly uniting moment (even AIPAC was against Bibi!) behind more of their usual woke-washed antisemitism.
rikyrah
Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) Tweeted:
Read the replies and let it sink in. You cannot convert Trumpists. It’s on the order of a religion, steeped in deeply held racial views and fears. You cannot negotiate with Trumpism. Democrats need to get this through their heads. Defeat them — soundly — or be ruled by them.
Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) Tweeted:
And let’s be clear: as of January 21, 2017 Trumpism IS Republicanism. Trump enjoys their near-unanimous support. All three GOP “legs” – the super rich, white evangelicals and the “Archie Bunkers” all worship him like the golden calf. Elected GOPers fear him. None will leave him.
Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) Tweeted:
Those who are unwilling to worship will simply leave public office. But any money – THEY WILL STILL VOTE FOR HIM. Hardly any will not. It’s all “hail Hydra” now. Dems (thinking Biden here and those pitching Fox News viewers) are fooling themselves if they don’t understand this.
Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) Tweeted:
[email protected] rightly said only total defeat stops her former party from gorging on Russian money, selling judgeships, killing farms w/ tariffs, stealing healthcare, torturing kids to appease people who hate multiculturalism, fluffing billionaires and globally humiliating us.
Shawn Peirce (@_silversmith) Tweeted:
@JoyAnnReid Amen. It’s the biggest single problem I have with Biden, his core belief that Trumpism is only a temporary “aberration.”
It’s not temporary.
This is who Republicans have chosen to be.
When Trumpers say they want us dead, it’s not a figure of speech. https://twitter.com/_silversmith/status/1163141447022993411?s=17
Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) Tweeted:
@_silversmith Not temporary. Not an aberration. Stephen Miller IS Republican mainstream. He’s just a weirder, creepier iteration.
https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1163147086768017415?s=17
Baud
@rikyrah:
What’s this referring to? Sarandon’s comment?
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Republicans: “And therefore our policies were successful!”
You can’t give them the benefit of the doubt, Kay. They’re bad inhumans.
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
I could sort of see Maggie Haberman excusing herself for willingly propagating libertarian-right framings like this to maintain her access, but it’s getting really tiresome. She’s helping to usher in a backlash where she, personally, will not be forgiven. Perhaps she thinks she’s helping with an authoritarian takeover of the US where she thinks she’ll be safe because of the help she provided. Not. Climate change will blow up all regimes on the planet. I hope she shifts a bit towards the center at least.
Brachiator
@jl:
There have been a steady stream of stories on the failure of the Trump tax cuts. Nobody is hiding this. I suspect the simpler answer is that the average person is afraid of, or bored by, complex stories about the economy. And many reporters don’t understand economics.
A good recent story.
Link
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/457558-gop-tax-cuts-are-a-national-security-threat
Another good story on the failure of the Trump tax cuts. This one shows that everything that Trump promised was a lie.
Link
https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2019/08/the-failed-promises-of-2017-tax-cuts.html?m=1
Mandalay
@Fleeting Expletive:
John Bolton and Frank Gaffney are both deranged RWNJs, but they never lose their cool, and they are all the more effective for that.
There is a glut of right wing pundits who think that projecting nastiness – especially dripping sarcasm and condescension – towards the other side makes them more effective, but the opposite is true: your supporters are going to stay loyal, but you are not going to win any new hearts and minds. (But don’t tell Trump.)
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: Thanks, I am thinking of doing an update.
jl
@Ruckus: I don’t know what actually goes on inside their heads. I think the editorial pressure is indirect. No corporate suit is going to go to the news department and tell them to say this or that. But who gets promoted, who gets re-assigned or demoted is noticed, and the nominal reasons for them are always business or programming I think they rationalize the indirect signals about what to say. And maybe some of them are consciously biased. And, for big shot news people who are advertised as so intrepid, brave and curious, they seem generally to be a pretty ignorant bunch, so that might explain a lot if too.
There is a selection process going on. The ruthless survival of fittest process is churning along to put those who say what the brass wants up at the top.
@Brachiator: I do think there are good stories. But how many people will read the links you give (and thanks for those) compared to talking head editorializing in celeb reporters on twitter, the headlines, sub heads, and top of big NYT and WaPo national affairs stories on the front page, and especially talking heads on the TV? I think the discussion on this thread is the relative influence of the editorializing versus the hard news reporting and analysis in less widely read places. How many people read McBride’s Calculate Risk blog compared to listening to Dana Bash’s, Chuck Todd’s and Haberman’s ignorant and completely incurious editorializing?
SFAW
@Kay:
1) Zero — or greatly reduced — regulation on business. “Unleash the power of innovation” (or whatever bullshit Luntz-tested meme they’ll use).
[NB: Regulating the crap out of “liberal” behavior is A-OK with them.]
2) Even more tax breaks for the wealthy
3) Anything which increases corporate power
There are probably additional tenets, but I’m too lazy to put much more thought into this.
jl
Seems like some of these news celebs’ research is limited to what their rich buddies tell them, or what for example, Scarborough (sp?) spouted the other day, or what their producers hand out to them.
Joe Falco
What’s important is if Israel had allowed them to visit the West Bank without conditions, this wouldn’t have blown up as it did. Blocking them then unblocking them as long as Tlaib and Omar kept their mouths shut unless unwavering support came out was insulting and beneath the dignity of their office and our supposed “special relationship.”
TenguPhule
Now we know why Trump wants Greenland
Every promise is a lie.
Litlebritdifrnt
OT – BUT VISA GRANTED!
Baud
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Congratulations!
jl
@TenguPhule: Is the Guardian redirecting to The Onion? Is that Trump tweet for real?
Maybe Trump wants to buy Greenland for his 2020 re-election campaign. He could hold a celebration rally at the site of a defunct glacier?
Better Trump obsess over Greenland that other things he could mess with. Until it gets to a naval blockade of Denmark.
schrodingers_cat
The artist who made the leaf liked my tweet!
Jay
@jl:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/19/charlottesville-police-molly-conger-newspaper?__twitter_impression=true
Chetan Murthy
@TenguPhule:
By which I assume you mean that the Palestinians, even if they had a modern army, would still be using suicide bombing and such. This is patently false. Go read Martin van Creveld on fourth generation warfare. It’s a tactic used by weaker combatants when they realize they can’t meet their adversaries using more-traditional military tactics.
TenguPhule
@jl:
Its real. Gods help us all its real.
TenguPhule
@Chetan Murthy:
They’d still be intentionally targeting civilians with their new toys, which is sadly quite true. Which would put supporters of Palestinian military force in the ironic position of trying to explain why Palestinians don’t have agency over their own actions.
jl
@Jay: Thanks. Here, ownership did the dirty work. And I admit seems like ownership was pretty upfront that they were interfering with reporter’s and editorial decisions. From the link.
” Despite the editor’s best efforts on my behalf and the absence of any followthrough on the threat of a defamation suit, the paper’s owners did not want to continue to run my column. “
Spanky
Well WaPo, being a full-service daily, has just the article for this sort of thing:
Now there’s a match made in heaven. [:rolleyes:]
No, I didn’t read. I’m not going to, and I’m certainly not gonna link it.
Jay
BretH
@TTT: “They both also chose to reblog a cartoon defending them drawn by a Holocaust denier.”
Probably not worth engaging but you’re going to have to show your work on this one. If you can.
https://forward.com/culture/14745/latuff-cartoonist-in-conversation-02995/
Jay
Brachiator
@jl:
It is pointless to rail about the inadequacy of headline reporting and pundit shows, and then demand that they provide substantive economic stories. It’s not going to happen. Anyone interested must dig deeper. Otherwise, you are limited to Krugman columns and an occasional good summary from Chuck Todd (and I will give him credit here for getting it right, but usually being too brief).
If you will permit me, this is a big issue with me. What you get on tv is deliberately dumbed down because the editors know that viewers will change the channel if the stuff is not simplified. The cable business shows are little more than boom or doom nonsense with bland fare about economic indicators. Or predictable interviews with partisan hacks or administration officials.
However, the NYT and WaPo do provide some good coverage and their online sites provide useful links. And the Guardian also provides good stories. Forbes and Business Insider nails it. The NPR or public radio programs and podcasts Marketplace, Make Me Smart and Planet money are also good general Interest programs.
But the bottom line is that too many people, including Balloon Juice folks, complain because they want the simplistic news providers they like to provide better stories about the economy. A good friend of mine depends solely on Facebook feeds. And of course, complains. But it’s like going to a pizza joint and complaining that they don’t serve omlettes.
Hell, just do a periodic Google search on “failure of Trump tax cuts” or “analysis of Trump tax cuts.” The Internet provides a ridiculously simple way to find useful stories. And yet people are too lazy and too afraid to go out of their comfort zone to find good stories.
Anyway, good stories are out there. But people have to be prepared to do a little homework.
Doug R
@jl:
Lisa’s pet, like catdog but the other ends.
jl
@Doug R: Good idea for a pet buddy flick? Those two could have great adventures.
Jay
@TenguPhule:
But then it wouldn’t be called terrorism, it would be called “collateral damage”, or “intelligence failure”, or “they were using human shields”, or “there were soldiers in the hospital”, or “who holds a wedding in the desert?”,……
Mandalay
@jl:
Because there’s no need. Those in the media who loudly proclaim “Nobody tells me what to say!” are full of it; they already know exactly what is expected of them, and they would be gone in a New York minute if they didn’t conform to the expectation.
Hannity brags that constantly, as though he deserves credit for being strong and brave, when it’s actually a sign that he is reliably weak and compliant. It’s a bit like an office worker proclaiming “Nobody tells me not to jerk off by the water cooler!” as though they are someone very special who needs no guidance.
Chomsky wrote all about this sham many years ago in Manufacturing Consent.
trollhattan
@BretH:
Yeah, not sure “frist-time” poster warrants a gift “arguing in good faith” sticker.
And second whomever it was that cited Maher’s ridiculous “you all got it wrong so let me straighten you out on why Israel is awesome” rant Friday. What a dork. We really have a problem with our entanglements there.
JPL
@Litlebritdifrnt: Very good!
Chetan Murthy
@TTT: Oh bullshit. There is a well-established principle in international law, that a technically more-sophisticated power in wartime must work harder to avoid collateral damage, than a less-sophisticated one. Or weaker one. Or, say, a combatant who is fighting from within a prison camp run by their adversary.
Demanding that the Palestinians adhere to the same rules as the Israelis, when the Israelis can fly over Gaza and drop bomb killing thousands without getting a scratch …. that’s ridiculous.
TTT
@BretH: He drew a cartoon in Iran’s Holocaust denial cartoon contest – I know in some circles this is no longer considered real antisemitism, apparently edgelord memes trivializing the Holocaust are only antisemitic on Reddit but in other countries they’re noble and deep. Maybe he should have drawn Pepe the frog instead so it would be, y’know, less ambiguous.
Latuff is the Chapo Frathouse version of Ben Garrison, if not A. Wyatt Mann. It is baffling and freakish for anyone in the U.S. government to reblog him.
His cartoon was dressing up a Palestinian man in a Nazi concentration camp uniform, which is slightly less intellectually honest than some Wall Street zillionaire saying the individual mandate is the new Kristallnacht. If anyone REALLY thinks the lives of Palestinians are the new Holocaust, let’s just have the sides trade histories and see who is happier the next day.
Anyway. As I mentioned, every American Jew to the left of David Hazony hates what Bibi did and wanted the Congresswomen let in. Rich Lowry certainly wanted them let in. We could have just been talking about how much Bibi torched his claim to a moral high ground, instead both Congresswomen and Peter Beinart are scrabbling to toss some back.
TenguPhule
@Jay: Well they’d be reclassified as war crimes. Only they’d be worse at making excuses then Donald Trump.
rikyrah
@Jay:
just plain evil
JPL
@raven: This was on our nextdoor
2) Two UGA vs Notre Dame Tickets Saturday September 21st ($1,600.0
Section 136, Row 38, Seats 21 & 22
> Lower level, side-line with seat backs.
> Cash or Pay Pal.
Doesn’t it seem like a lot…
jl
@Mandalay: I agree. I tried to say that, but you did it better.
Only question is which ones are completely oblivious, which ones have rationalized and internalized it to the point of being in some real sense, insane, and which ones consciously know it and don’t care (or do care, but only about their own asses and not about any of the ‘lesser people’ they claim to inform).
Jay
TenguPhule
@Chetan Murthy:
The problem is that so many people seem not to hold Palestinians accountable to any rules whatsoever. Those same rules bind the Israelis to not use those really big bombs to kill thousands at a time. And at least for now, those rules are keeping in check the worst of Israel’s leadership’s desires for military force. Because things will get so much worse if/when the rules get thrown out the window instead of selectively ignored.
TTT
My apologies – I meant David Harsanyi, not David Hazony.
Jay
@TenguPhule:
The US only takes others War Crimes seriously.
JPL
@Jay: That is so short sighted , because the treatment is going to cost far more. At this point I wish the democrats who are running for president would talk about the child abuse over and over and over.
zhena gogolia
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I’m so happy!
Litlebritdifrnt
@zhena gogolia: Me too!
catclub
@Brachiator:
I think jenneifer Rubin must have read that before her recent op-ed saying ‘every Trump economic promise a is a lie’.
ola azul
More Adam and Cheryl’s beat, this, but reconnize several names who are good (mostly the women for me, fwiw). Haven’t had time to read, so offered as potential resource, subject to further scrutiny:
Expert Summaries of Mueller Report: A Collection by Just Security groupblog
Just Security contributors:
Kate Brannen, George T. Conway III, Jennifer Daskal, Kristen Eichensehr, Joshua Geltzer, Ryan Goodman, Elie Honig, Harry Litman, Renato Mariotti, Barbara McQuade, Asha Rangappa, Mimi Rocah, Paul Seamus Ryan, Rita Siemion, Joyce Vance and Andy Wright
Jay
@TenguPhule:
Which Palistinians? The PA Security forces don’t commit terrorism against Israel, just Palistinians.
But the PA is not the Government of Palistine, there is no Palistinian Government.
Hamas, the authority over Gaza, has an armed wing that commits terrorist attacks against Israel, but then, Gaza is an open air prison under constant terrorist attack by Israel, so that’s kinda like being shocked that the Latin Kings in Fulsom attack the guards from time to time.
There’s a bunch of other armed groups in Palistine who don’t report to Hamas or the PA, which is what often happens in Occupied Territories that are left, deliberately stateless so that they can be annexed and colonized.
https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20190117_2018_fatalities
It’s sad really that “nobody” holds Israel up to higher standards or even the Rights Treaties they have signed.
https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20190117_2018_fatalities
Jay
Gin & Tonic
@Jay: It’s “Palestine.”
Brachiator
@TenguPhule:
Didn’t people say much the same thing about the Irgun in the 1940s? Or the IRA in the 70s? Or Algerians or Tamils?
And to be clear, I am not justifying anybody’s use of terrorism. And I do not want to suggest that desperate people resort to desperate measures. In fact, I would note that a lot of what the Palestinians do is counterproductive.
But armed resistance is brutal and nasty, and rules often get thrown out the window.
rikyrah
@JPL:
$1,600???
rikyrah
@Jay:
They have been pushing ‘ the diseased invader’ meme for awhile.
They are hoping that a flu epidemic happens.
Jay
BretH
@trollhattan: Discussing intellectual honesty with TTT definitely looks like a one-way ticket into a black hole. Divert, counter-argue, etc etc etc. If I want that all I have to do is to wander over to Twitter.
Jay
@rikyrah:
Cruelty is the point.
Martin
Dear America,
Immigration is really good for growth.
Signed,
California, 5th largest economy in the world
rikyrah
@Litlebritdifrnt:
YEAH!!!!
So, what’s next for you?
Jay
Jay
Looks like that in less than a day, after being doxxed by antifacists, the Manitoba arm of the Nazi Base, got taken down,
Jay
Any mods around?
Jay
satby
@raven: that interpreter is famous for signing rap and metal.*
*Which I know because I count a deaf musician among her friends
Jay
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
Stenography is a useful skill, taking notes in a productive meeting. Haberman probably can’t do that in a useful way.
Haberman is much worse, she is a propagandist — selling the positions of the dictator as if they were related to the real world.
Otherwise we agree!
Yarrow
@Litlebritdifrnt: Congratulations! That’s excellent news. How soon can he get back to the UK?
A Ghost To Most
@Gin & Tonic: Jay has difficulty with Antifa as well..
Jay
@A Ghost To Most:
There is no Antifia, does not exist, there are only anti-facists.
You should stop channelling Nazi talking points.
Ruckus
@jl:
If you don’t think that the owners/publishers set the tone you are not thinking. They set it when they hire, they set it whenever there is any question or story they do or don’t like. Every business owner does this. Everyone has rules and structure. If they don’t like what you are doing or how you are doing it, you hear about it one way or another. Never wonder why some numb-nut keeps their job, it is because the boss likes what/how they do whatever it is they do.
It really is that simple.
Litlebritdifrnt
@rikyrah: Looking at DH flying from Atlanta on Aug 30 and being home in Manchester Airport by Aug 31. We will pick him up and the job search begins, he wants to go back into teaching so hopefully that will happen.
patrick II
@TenguPhule:
Palestinians have just as much, if not more, rights to preserve and protect their homeland as the Israeli’s do. Israel has two choices if they want to remain a democracy worth defending — move back to a smaller footprint where they remain the majority and respect the rights of a Palestinian homeland, or become a democracy in all of Palestine in which case they become a minority. They have chosen a third path, and that is not a democracy we should support, but the subjugation of people different from them. We fought a civil war ourselves over that once.
Jay
Jay
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Congrats, is the visa permanent?
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Jay: Jay, like @A Ghost To Most, I’ve noticed you frequently mention “Antifia.” I don’t get it. Do you actually mean Antifa (anti-fascist), leaving aside whether that exists or not? Is the spelling an inside joke? I tried googling both spellings to see if there was some nuance and couldn’t find anything.
rikyrah
@Jay:
DA PHUQ?
rikyrah
@Jay:
I don’t understand the point..what did they do to be put on the map of the White Supremacists?
rikyrah
@Jay:
UH HUH
UH HUH
We already knew this….just getting more confirmation.
Gin & Tonic
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: I don’t think Jay feels bound by the Man’s oppressive spelling rules.
Jay
So, keep in mind after Wussolinni and Bibi stepped on their own dicks, there’s gonna be a lot of fakes out their trying to change the narrative.
J R in WV
@TenguPhule:
I think the level of atrocity being committed in the occupied territories is wholly on the Israeli IDF side, as they have all the military weapons, while Palestinans are limited to slings and rocks. Hard to fight tanks and helicopters with stones. Children are being shot for throwing rocks.
Attempting to defend yourself from invaders chainsawing 300 year old olive orchards — YOUR 200 year old olive orchards — is not committing atrocities.
Where have you been the past 20 years? Ignoring the actual events in the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank? The right wing terrorists who shot Rabin are in charge now, and it isn’t pretty. If they’re willing to murder the Prime Minister, little girls in prison cells don’t stand a chance.
Sometimes terror is used by those in power to twist opinion and create fear. More often it is the last resort of people who have no power whatsoever. Palestinians fall into the powerless category, and the IDF falls into the powerful category.
I was a straight up Zionist myself in the 1950s and ’60s, but once the radical right wing fascists took control of Israel, I opened my eyes. Try it! You might see something. At least stop making stupid assertions.
Ruckus
@Martin:
Some in this country don’t want growth. They want life less busy, life life less crowded, life where they can stand out in their field. Literally. They want 1950. It isn’t coming back no matter what they do but that’s what they want.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Ohio Mom: I have never doubted how awful it is, and I wish there were less indoctrination of the youth to not see that particular reality on their trips to Israel.
I can only hope that Beinart’s comments on the topic – lonely as he surely is, for the reason you noted – will have an impact on the US population because of his status as an American Orthodox Jew. Which I’d like to think would give him some authority with them. I’ve pretty much lost hope for the people in the circles you go of your way to avoid.
Jay
@rikyrah:
Called out a wipple female “blacks rights activist” in her twitter feed for calling the cops on black students, twice, for sleeping in her dorm,
So, 6 days so far of swatting, pizzas, phone calls, death threats, against her and her extended family, etc.
Gamergate swarm attacks.
Gelfling 545
Daughter just called to vent. She’s on the help desk at the legal clinic today & a client seeking pro bono representation, living in subsidized housing & collecting TANF stayed around to lecture her on why libertarianism is the ONLY sensible position. When the person segued into the “pro life libertarians” which apparently exist she stood up, said thanks, we’ll be in touch & walked out. Though tempted to whack her head on the desk, she says, her medical coverage isn’t that great so she called & yelled a bit instead. So, when you ask yourself how we’ve come to this, here’s a fine example.
Brachiator
@patrick II:
That’s not really a democracy.
Jay
@Ruckus:
They want 1850, but with all the modern conveniences.
Elizabelle
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Ooh. That is interesting. A sock missing its puppet?
Elizabelle
@Jay: What is “wipple”?
rikyrah
@Elizabelle:
WHITE (WI-LONG I)
PPLE (PEOPLE)
Jay
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: That’s what I was afraid of.
Doesn’t that strike you as kind of awful?
Jay
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
My only digital access is on a cell phone, that if I sit in the right spot, weather depending, get’s 1 bar at best, for maybe 15 minutes before it drops off.
So, I just type, as best as I can with fat fingers, don’t use spell check or autocorrect, so that I don’t lose the post,
Pedants are going to pedant anyway.
Roger Moore
@Jay:
Trump may have benefited from past recessions, but getting another one too soon is likely to hurt his reelection chances.
Yutsano
@Litlebritdifrnt: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!
Baud
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Anti-fiancé?
Anti-fiasco?
Anti-fiat money system?
ruemara
I stood in line for 1.5 hours, have been waiting for another half hour & we’re still not done loading everyone into this auditorium. No wonder they don’t give a time estimate. plus someone took my free little flag off my seat & if that ain’t fucking America. I’m the only dingus who doesn’t have one.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Elizabelle: I thought it was an awkward attempt at “wypipo,” with which I’m familiar from The Root and black twitter. I’ve thought of it as justifiable mockery of racism, or at least race-based cluelessness, but it’s not my word and I don’t pretend to know whether it’s devolved into something unacceptable.
Baud
@ruemara:
Is your citizenship oath today?
I can’t believe you don’t carry a spare flag with you? You still have a lot to learn, citizen.
Mandalay
@TenguPhule:
Who on earth are the “many” of which you speak? And where exactly do those fictional “rules” come from…supporters of Israel?
From where I’m sitting the Palestinians are generally branded as terrorists for having the temerity to want back their land that Israel has stolen, and the Israeli government is (absurdly) tagged as the only democracy in Middle East.
I hope if someone steals everything that is yours, you won’t go beyond writing a sternly worded letter to the authorities.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Baud: Anti-Fiat! Little buggers are constantly breaking down, dropping hubcaps all over the road, and getting in the way of the big manly trucks that are the true Kings of the Highway.
cain
@Elizabelle: Some guy who doesn’t like his Charmin squeezed.
Elizabelle
@ruemara: That’s kind of hilarious about the missing flag.
But congratulations!
Jay
@Elizabelle:
Whipple is an internet pejorative for a certain kind of Caucasian, it ranges from being a pejorative for out out rabid racists, to “uncomfortable” BBQ Beckies, to people who “blacksplain” to POC, to allies of convenience.
Ojul had a verified twitter account come into her twitter threads on 1619, trying to “blacksplain” to her. She did a quick google search and it turned out to belong to “Sleeping Becky”, the girl who called armed cops on fellow black students for sleeping in the common areas of her dorm, twice,
who was now trying to reinvent herself as a black rights supporter online.
So, you can see why I used the pejorative.
schrodingers_cat
@ruemara: Things were much better at my swearing in. Besides that little flag we got each a hand made tankard and free admission to the Old Sturbridge Village and their July 4th festivities. But the waiting sounds familiar. They made us wait in the hot sun for two hours.
Duane
@rikyrah: It’s evil and stupid, not one damned republican will say a word, and a day ending with a “y.” Fuckem.
Sab
@Litlebritdifrnt: YAY!!!
J R in WV
@TenguPhule:
Without doubt there are groups of Palestinians who do nothing but target civilians. There are no organized military units at the disposal of the practically non-existent Palestinian government who might attack one of the most accomplished military in the middle-east.
At the same time, Palestinian kids attack heavily armed and armored IDF troops with stones and slings, as in the David vs Goliath folk tale. They get shot to death for it, too. Goliath didn’t have an assault rifle.
I believe that in the case of Palestinian violence against civilians, they are far too weak to attack the awesome IDF, so they resort to terror as their only choice — you obviously believe they revel in the bloodshed and prefer to kill civilians, so there’s nothing left to discuss.
NotMax
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Spyder, Spyder, piece of shite,
On the roadside in the night;
What mechanic’s hand or eye,
Could stem thy breakdown tendency?
rikyrah
@Jay:
The conflict from him PERSONALLY benefiting from an economic recession vs. being held RESPONSIBLE for one, going into the 2020 election.
trollhattan
@rikyrah:
Whew, I was afraid Charmin had resurrected that old campaign. ;-)
rikyrah
@Jay:
Is interesting, seeing how genuinely they are panicked about the economy.
trollhattan
@NotMax:
Why do Fiats have rear window defoggers?
Keep your hands warm when you’re pushing it home.
spudgun
@Litlebritdifrnt: Delurking to say “YAAAAAAAAAAAAYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
*PHEW*, right?? So happy and relieved for you and your family.
Brachiator
@ruemara: Ceremony today? Congratulations!
trollhattan
@rikyrah:
Yup, it’s a tell. TBH I think they expected it to crash a year ago and now the timing is bad for Donny next fall.
spudgun
@ruemara: Many congrats, ruemara! So happy for you!
Jay
@Roger Moore:
Guess you missed his most recent hatefest,
https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2019/aug/16/you-have-no-choice-but-to-vote-for-me-trump-gets-tough-with-new-hampshire-voters-video
ruemara
@schrodingers_cat: wow! They went all out. I have a piece of dreck with a shitty signature on it, that I shall burn in a ritual to get the large shitbag out of office.
I’m now eating some sugar free gum. Getting very hungry but I see the end of the line!
Elizabelle
@Jay: Staceys. Chads. Incels. Becky. Now we have BBQ Becky, and I have no idea what that means. This is getting to be a bit much, isn’t it?
It’s not so far off the Klan’s language. It’s code. Why not call out the behavior, rather than the race of the person you feel is misbehaving?
All this sounds way too close to the N word and all manner of racial epithets which are off limits used against some groups of people, but it’s open season on white people, stupid or not.
Call out the behavior.
patrick II
@Brachiator:
Yes, it would be a democracy, or don’t you consider it a democracy when your favored group isn’t in the majority? Israel doesn’t want a Palestine-wide democracy, they want a herrenvolk, democracy for them only.
Elizabelle
@trollhattan: LOL. Obama’s economy was strong. Took a while for Trump and all to take it down.
Jay
@trollhattan:
Fix It Again Tony.
Still, a Fiat 180 was my first car. It was a blast to drive, an econobox sportscar, cheap on gas, peppy up to 70mph,took curves like a charm, great in the snow and rain, rusted as fast as you looked at it, and it was murdered at the hands of a mechanic who knew nothing about Fiats.
Not bad for $250.
catclub
@Baud:
i remember when Senator Sam Irvin would proudly display the copy of the Constitution that he carried in his jacket pocket.
schrodingers_cat
@ruemara: I think they do it for the July 4th swearing-ins.
ruemara
@schrodingers_cat: ah, that’s really very nice. I almost thought we were starting but we aren’t. Back to waiting.
trollhattan
@Jay:
Fiats and Alfas have always had spirit that rewarded the driver, and a few are undeniably beautiful. Whether the penalty side outweighed the positives partly depended on luck and the other part, relentless attention to maintenance.
A GF’s 124 surrendered it’s shift lever, I believe between second and third. Boy was she surprised.
Brachiator
@patrick II:
I don’t have a favored group, but thanks for trying.
And let’s get down to the bottom line. Jewish people often have to deal with a fundamental dilemma. There are always people who want them to go away, be swallowed up, to disappear. Are you one of these people?
Jay
@Elizabelle:
So, part of the effect of the evolution of speech in the past couple of decades, accelerated by the Internet, is the use of memes and shorthand to make a point in as few as words as needed.
And as I pointed out, I have limited and spotty access.
Should one really have to write 500 words, everytime, to explain what an Incel is, when commenting on what an Incel did?
We know what Incels are, Chads, Stacies, Mansplaining, etc.
We have a slang that sadly suits our modern age.
Style guides used to hold that one referred to the full title of the Office Holder, followed by his full name.
Can I not use Orangmandius, Wussolinni, the Cheeto,etc?
TenguPhule
@patrick II:
That’s not the problem. The problem is that its become more then just an issue about having a homeland.
Its degenerated into a blood feud. They can’t disengage, they can’t negotiate and both sides have a powerful minority who benefits from the conflict because it allows them to retain power on their own side.
At this point my vote is to disengage entirely, end weapons sales and offer any refugees a way to immigrate in the US as a form of amends. Any other course of action we take trying to intervene is only going to make things worse.
Elizabelle
@Jay: But don’t you see where it becomes
almosta parody?Stuff like that says you are addressing solely the in group, who knows the references.
ruemara
@Elizabelle: I know you mean well, but it’s best not to liken the levity marginalized groups make of macro & micro aggressors to one of the groups actually trying to kill us.
TenguPhule
@J R in WV:
You’ve already forgotten the second Intfida in early 2000. The IDF doesn’t have clean hands, but you can stop right there with whitewashing the atrocities committed by the Palestinians which destroyed Israel’s political left’s credibility. Israel’s hawks didn’t suddenly climb into power on sheer charisma, the destruction of the peace process shares parents on both the Israeli right and the Palestinian Authority and Hamas and the rest of their para-military groups.
Jay
@Elizabelle:
Btw, “BBQ Becky”, is Jennifer Schulte, who repeatly called the police on POC bbq-ing in a public park, and then was upset that police didn’t kill people.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/heavy.com/news/2018/05/jennifer-schulte-bbq-becky/amp/
J R in WV
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Congratulations~!!~ Much Joy at your house tonight, and at the end of the month when he shows up, after all this time!
TenguPhule
@Mandalay:
I’m looking at everyone who makes excuses for Palestinian terror attacks on Israeli civilians. Never mind that the same kind of attacks in their own countries gets the full terrorist treatment. Its sort of counter productive to intentionally launch attacks that target the very folks in Israel you need to support a peace process to reach your goal of your own state.
NotMax
@trollhattan
Long time ago an Audi 100 I had was a joy to drive, when it was driveable. Something different was always going on the fritz. Whenever people asked what kind of car I had I would answer, “An Audi Limona.”
:)
Automatic transmission, factory built so car only started when in neutral. Weirdly shaped battery, under the rear seat on the passenger side.
Person I gave it to had it break down on the George Washington bridge while first bringing it home. He managed to coax it one way or another off the bridge and onto the shoulder of the Cross-Bronx Expressway. At that time of the 70s, if you parked on that shoulder and turned around to sneeze the car would be stripped when you turned back. Sat overnight and most of the next day, untouched, until he got back to it. Even the road rats didn’t want any part (figuratively and literally) of it.
TenguPhule
@J R in WV:
So if peaceful protests in the USA are used by anti-government groups as a screen to launch attacks against security forces, same rules apply?
TenguPhule
@patrick II:
No, it wouldn’t. What you’d get would be a Palestinian dictator/warlord puppet funded by the Saudis and a lot of dead people, most of them of jewish descent.
Duane
@ruemara: We could dismiss with the cute names and call them the racist, nationalist, nazi trash they are. It goes without saying they’re white. I’m okay with that.
Congrats on your soon-to-be US citizenship. Well done!
Gin & Tonic
@Jay: Not every B-J reader is aware of all Internet traditions; not every B-J reader has English as their first language.
Incidentally, 27 posts over the span of three hours kind of belies your “spotty Internet” argument.
Jay
@Elizabelle:
So, one of the reasons, I post a fair number of tweets and links, is because there is a lot happening other than Orangmandius’s latest outrage, or the Democratic Campaigns.
It’s tough to stay up to speed and easy to forget outrages from days, weeks, months ago.
Still, this is a full service blog, so if you don’t get a reference, those who do, will happlily quickly explain and provide further reading if you are interested.
I’m a Caucasian, not a “whipple”, I’m sure you are not one either. Part of the evolution of “whipple”, was everytime a POC wrote “White People”, they got swarmed by hundreds to thousands of stupid “Not all White People” posts, and it being the Internet, 99% of the responents didn’t bother to read what the person had written, they just seized on those two words.
Like Faux News commentators and “1619”.
So like using “Wilmer” doesn’t attract Dave Sirota or Susan Sarandon to this blog, “whipple” doesn’t attract the “useless suspects” to blogs, comments and twitter feeds.
It is in part, an effective anti-troll tool.
patrick II
@Brachiator:
“Are you one of those people”.
Nope. If you actually don’t have a favored group, then you would not call democracy for everyone throughout Palestine — in your words — “not a democracy”. And since I disagree I am evidently one of those people who want Jews to go away. Take a close look in the mirror, Brachiator.
Elizabelle
@Duane: Agreed. Just call out the behavior. Use an actual word that means something, like racist. Or liar.
@Gin & Tonic: Exactly. I have had my suspicions about this one.
laura
@ruemara: I’d be honored to buy you a flag! I hope this slight will not mar the joy you deserve on this special day. We are lucky to have you as a fellow American.
Jay
@Gin & Tonic:
It’s all I am doing today, surfing, posting, reading. My backs out again.
Btw, it took me 6 tries to get a signal, and 3 tries to post this reply.
Normally, I’d find a long article to read, but those won’t load today.
A forest fire this spring burned up the cell phone tower on Chewel’s Mountain and Telus hasn’t gotten around to replacing it, so our signal now comes from Rose Hill, 4 hill ranges, 21 miles away, and the Yagi and repeater is having a hard time coping.
When I write longer posts, I do it in “notes”, so that when I get my itermittent signal back, it’s a copy/paste.
Roger Moore
@NotMax:
This kind of thing is more common than you might think. The battery is relatively heavy, so designers will sometimes move it to an unusual location to try to improve the weight balance.
zzyzx
My general philosophy about the mid-east is that if you think the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is between one side that is mostly good and one that is mostly awful, you don’t understand it.
It’s a series of atrocities that feeds upon itself, turning everyone into hardliners who then feel the need to do more bad things for their safety. There’s an obvious two state/Jerusalem as an international city solution that we’ve come close to a few times, but there are enough bad actors among both countries who gain from the war that every time that happens, someone blows it up.
Brachiator
@patrick II:
I asked a simple question, without presumption.
Democracies are funny things. Sri Lanka is the oldest democracy in Asia. And yet, the Tamils have been crushed. They are not simply a minority within a democracy.
Jay
@NotMax:
The Quattro was a “cool car” when it came out here.
One little problem, on the long uphills of the Coquihalla Highway, ( you might know it as “The Highway of Death” from TV), in the summer, the engine would overheat, and any oil/grease on the engine block would catch fire.
Because the bumpers were shock mounted to the car, once the fire got hot enough, the shocks would explode, launching the bumper across the highway or into the ravines.
So for a while, on some weekends, the Highway Warning Signs would scroll not an “Extreme Weather Conditions, Ahead”, but instead a “Caution, Exploding Audi, Ahead”.
Topclimber
On behalf of Patrick II: Your comment mostly has cred until your your last sentence,at which point, FY
NotMax
@Roger Moore
Unsealed battery, so from time to time one would get a whiff of battery acid inside the driver’s compartment. As for the shape, think of standing a VCR on its front. That type of long, relatively thin rectangle.
debbie
@Ohio Mom:
Nothing new. I’ve seen this since the 1960s. The only difference is how much more vocal they are, even as they condemn any bad-mouthing of themselves.
NotMax
@NotMax
Also too, because of its location, one had to have extra-long jumper cables as well. Plus remove the rear seat to get or give a jump.
debbie
@Kay:
Wait, what? Are you talking about the rainy day fund?
Steeplejack (phone)
@trollhattan:
Everybody who wants to play the “Never heard of you before” card should familiarize themselves with this basic Google search:
site:balloon-juice.com BretHSubstitute “nym of person I don’t like” for “BretH” in this example.
We even had “On the Road” pictures from “valued commenter BretH” back in April. ?
debbie
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Congratulations!
brantl
Rich Lowery: truth-in-advertising; looks like a tool, acts like a tool, thinks like a tool.
Amir Khalid
@Jay:
I too eschew the use of spellcheck and autocorrect, and yet I can spell correctly.
Jay
@Duane:
Incels are not always white, but they are always male, and many are not any kind of flavour of Nazis.
Nazis are not always white, nor are they always involentarialy celebate.
There’s a reason these terms exist.
Enrique Tarrio, is a Cuban American, National Leader of the Proud Boys Nazi Group, a Director of the Latinos for Trump PAC, a member of the Republican Party of Florida, and definately not an Incel.
Jay
@Amir Khalid:
Good for you. I can’t always. I often use bad grammer and slang as well. Sometimes, swear words.
prostratedragon
@Jay: At that post Sarah Kendzior links back to one from August 2016 that’s kind of interesting:
Oh, if only …
patrick II
@TenguPhule:
Sadly, you are probably right. What ever chance the U.S. had to help democracy in the Mideast — mostly by not undercutting it — is long gone. I do regret it though.
trollhattan
@Steeplejack (phone):
Thanks for the tip.
In this case I was following on BretH’s response to newtroll 3xT. BrettH I recognize, although he has not informed us of his “big brain” status. (Bretts everywhere must rue that film.)
TTT
@Brachiator:
Fair point, one that I wish more critics would take seriously. Palestinian politics consists of the PA and Hamas. They will never form a democratic government. They can’t even form a democratic government in their own territories. They certainly won’t form a democratic government with the Jews whom they regard as alien invaders with no national rights.
TTT
@trollhattan: That same link makes clear that I have been posting here occasionally since 2006. Not that it matters. You’re better off sticking to “LOOKIT THE N00b lol” than trying to fake your way through an I/P discussion that you know nothing about.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@ruemara: Thank you for making an important point.
zzyzx
@Steeplejack (phone): I see posts from me going back to at least 2005. I may not post often but I do at least have a history.
rikyrah
@Jay:
I thought that I recognized the name. They sent police to her home while her son was there ALONE.??
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@zzyzx: Word.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
So, what you’re saying is that the stateless people are too savage to be allowed self-determination, and can’t function without the guiding hand of a master race?
Seems I’ve heard this somewhere before.
zzyzx
@patrick II: The mideast in general infuriates me so much because we came so close so many times.
For the record, this is the fate that the alt-right wants for us. Their public goal is to make it so we can never come together as a society again in hopes of creating a civil war. To what ends, I don’t know, but it’s so trivial to create that sort of conflict and so hard to get out of the cycle.
Cacti
Bottom line:
Israel is an ethno-religious state that cosplays as a secular democracy, but is actually built on a national policy of military oppression of and land theft from a stateless people, to the exclusive benefit of the favored ethno-religious group.
As no honest rebuttal of the above exists, one of our resident PEPs should hurry up and call me an anti-semite.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
No, I’m predicting exactly what will happen in the event the Palestinians change the strategic situation with the Israelis. They’re already halfway there, they just don’t have the funds and firepower yet. But the strong men are already there ready to play tin pot dictators.
Gravenstone
@Jay: Ya know, if you use recognizable fucking English words in the first place you wouldn’t have to follow up with three additional posts explaining what you claim you meant. But you do you, sparky.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
Explain to us how the PA and Hamas in charge would be be any better. I’ll wait.
patrick II
@Brachiator:
Ok, I’ll ask a simple question: are you an anti-Palestinian racist who wants Palestinians to just go away? Leading question stereotyping someone who disagrees with me. Yes, it is. I was just following your format with the implications spelled out.
Jay
@Gravenstone:
I will do me, thank you very much for the positive support.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Cacti:
There is indeed no honest/arguably legitimate rebuttal, so I’ll be sitting next to you getting called antisemitic.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Your response is a tu quoque fallacy and in no way rebuts the original post.
As I said, no honest rebuttal exists. Just go ahead and call me an anti-semite and get it over with.
TTT
People who are neither Palestinian nor Jewish need to WAAAYYY tune down their performative and proudly fragile outrage on this topic.
And then maybe they should try to answer what would have happened to the Jews had they lost the war in 1948. Or 1967. Or 1973.
zzyzx
@Cacti: Israel is a realization that the past 2000 years of kicking Jews around Europe and Asia headed for a horrific conclusion so something else had to be tried. The solution displaced other people so it also was a horrible idea. Then a lot of people who don’t really give a shit about anyone who lived in the region discovered that they could egg the two groups on to fight to distract their own populations (eg the Rapturists in the US, the dictators in the mid-east).
Nothing about any of this is good. The question is how do we get from where we are now to somewhere sane where at least everyone has enough of what they want that we can build a society together. In 1975 or so, that might have been possible. In 2019 where the world is spinning into nationalism, I don’t see how.
patrick II
@Cacti:
If I was as eloquent as you it would have saved me about five comments. Brachiator already asked if I was one of those people who didn’t like Jews around, so that anti-semite part hs already been covered.
Jay
@rikyrah:
They also told 9/11 that there were gunshots, two bodies inside,
Now they have driven her family out of the house with harassment, for 6 days so far, and are attacking her extended family as well.
She has asked for donations,……..
For others, shelter groups and anti-harassment groups that support people who can’t afford to go into shelter like she can.
Could be worse. Emily G had to move to Germany to reduce the threats.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Will changing the status quo from Israel,warts and all, to an ascendant Palestinian Authority or Hamas make the overall situation there better or worse? That’s what it comes down to.
Yes, the current Israeli government is shit. So now what?
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
You do know you’re borrowing the argument of the apartheid South African ruling class, right? And of pretty much every invading/colonizing power in the history of anything anywhere.
Cacti
@TTT:
It’s tough defending the indefensible.
I’d want to change the subject too.
patrick II
@TenguPhule:
You are almost certainly right, we’ve gotten to the place where now it’s a blood feud with little or no chance for compromise or democracy. I just hate to see people treated as badly and as cavalierly as the Palestinians are being treated. The “two-state” solution has always been a stalling technique by the Likud as they have built more settlements and kicked more Palestinians off of their land, and the last guy who was sincere in his effort to change things, Yitzak Rabin, was assassinated by a conservative Jew in a tempest of hate helped along by Netenyahu. Blood feuds are always terrible, but even worse when one side is spilling most of the blood.
zzyzx
If you don’t understand why Jews get a tad nervous when you talk about eliminating the escape valve that we have in a time where there’s rising European antisemitic nationalism and a series of synagogue shootings in the US, you either have no empathy or no knowledge of history.
I hate what the Israeli government is doing. It’s horrible and it’s being done in my name. The settlements are wrong. Responding to rocks with bullets is wrong. However, just saying, “Israel is an evil colonial state that needs to be abandoned” without giving any answers to what happens next, well it might not be coming out of antisemitism but in terms of practical difference, there’s not too much.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Do you think the PA or Hamas will transition to actual democracy or remain strongmen bankrolled by foreign money? I’m predicting strongmen.
TenguPhule
@patrick II: The last option I could see working is a neutral third party occupation of both territories to enforce a peace agreement.
Trouble is, no such force exists.
All the available options now suck. Some of them simply suck a little less then others.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Cool story, bro.
Doesn’t make land theft from stateless people legal though.
zzyzx
@patrick II: It wasn’t originally. It was a real approach. It still could be. I just don’t think that it can ever happen.
And yes, I also think Rabin’s assassination was the end of anything good ever happening there.
Cacti
@zzyzx:
And there it is.
When you can’t argue facts, yell “anti-semitism!”. Or, maybe passive-aggressively suggest in a milquetoast way.
zzyzx
@Cacti: fine. Israel should not have been created. It was a mistake brought out by guilt. The problem is that it does exist. What solution do you have that could not be described as a land theft that would create a stateless people?
TTT
@Cacti: And you yourself are likewise aware that you’re just aping talking points from David Duke?
I’ll note that you really didn’t want to discuss what would have happened to the Jews if they’d lost the wars in 1948. Or 1967. Or 1973.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: A big part of the problem when you do it is that you use spellings that no one else uses. A lot of people know wypipo and, if they don’t, sounding it out. Wipple is much more like a person with a speech impediment trying to name a Grateful Dead song.
zzyzx
@Cacti: What facts are you presenting? Israel displaced innocent people? Yes! It did. We agree. Palestinians are oppressed right now? Yes. They are. That needs to stop. What we’re simply asking is what the fuck is your plan?
For that matter, if you live in the US and aren’t native, I’m only going to take your rants about how Israel needs to go so seriously.
Jay
@zzyzx:
Israel has picked it’s path.
The “deal” was always land for peace. They decided they would keep the land and gain peace by rendering the Palistinians and their allies impotent.
They now have 2 paths forward remaining,
Apartheid, genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Or full secular democracy in which Israel will no longer be a “Jewish” state.
It’s Israel’s choice, not the diespora’s or the Palestinians.
Either choice will face pushback by different groups of Palestinians.
Only one will lead to Israel’s survival. Settler/Colonist States havn’t fared well since the mid 20th Century.
Cacti
@TTT:
See post #223.
XOXO
TTT
As to the freshman-year gibberish about “ethnostates” – at least one-third of all the countries in the world likewise have their special favorite ethnicities or religions. Some try to be democratic, others don’t.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-the-world-s-strongest-illiberal-democracy-1.5793036
The Economist ranks Israel as the 30th most democratic state, right between France and Belgium. The U.S. is #25.
But please, do go on with your campfire horror stories.
Brachiator
@patrick II:
Yawn. Your first question here implied that I had a favored group, presumably Jews in preference to Palestinians.
Nope.
BTW, I disagree with everything expressed in post 201, above, but I am in mid commute and cannot easily post for a while. But this subject always attracts those who believe that the Jews deserve nothing, or that the Palestinians deserve nothing.
Maybe we should talk about something simpler. Like Northern Ireland or Spain.
TenguPhule
@Jay:
And neither side delivered. And there’s too much blood between the two sides to expect a Palestinian majority to not immediately turn on a jewish minority in the same state. Let’s not lie to each other here.
The Lodger
@NotMax: Same location as the VW Beetle battery. Hope the Audi’s wasn’t 6 volts.
TTT
@Cacti: I can’t see your point behind your Confederate flag.
Seriously, you can’t keep blubbering over the outcome of 1948 while declaring all discussion of the other possible outcome, and a weighing of the two, to be out-of-bounds. It’s just legend-telling about that mean nasty old Mad General Sherman and how he destroyed AHR WAYAH LAHF, now gone with the wind.
Matt McIrvin
@TTT: If that list is ranking the US highly for democracy there’s something wrong with it.
Cacti
@TTT:
Your angry tears taste so sweet.
patrick II
@TTT:
From the article you linked to:
See, that is bullshit. It is clear they are only counting the electoral process for the people inside of Israel proper, and not Greater Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza strip in which Palestinians have no vote, no voice, and no rights, electoral or otherwise, at all. There the “level of political participation” is a bleak joke.
I suppose I am just reacting to a troll, but in case not, that is a remarkably inept statistical classification by The Economist, not an actual description of reality but good only for faux arguing points by people with malicious intent.
Steeplejack
@trollhattan:
Eh, I was sucking down a pint and gorging on pizza at the Lost Dog Café. Shit happens. [Non-apology “sorry if anyone was offended” apology.]
This is a bit of a hot button with me, because all too often I see it deployed against merely unfamiliar nyms as a way to shut down discussion of an unpopular opinion before there is any discussion. If the person really is a troll, it will emerge, but I think sometimes it deters newbies from commenting because they might get flamed. And I think we can always use new voices.
(Note: I haven’t read all of this thread and have no opinion so far on TTT.)
patrick II
@Brachiator:
me (earlier)
fair enough
zzyzx
Here’s why I think Cacti is flirting at least with antisemitism:
At some point in prehistory, a stateless tribe of Israelis kicked out the residents of what is now Israel. Presumably bad things happened to them.
Centuries later, the Romans came in and kicked out the Jews. Bad things are happening to them.
Centuries later, the western powers kicked out the Palestinians and restored the Jews. Bad things are happening to them.
The proposed plan seems to be to kick out the Jews and restore the Palestinians. Bad things would then be likely to happen to them.
If you can look at that and say, “THERE! THE THIRD ONE! THAT ONE IS WRONG!” and ignore all of the similar things that have happened or that you want to happen, that comes across as a bias. If you can’t seem to figure out why exactly Israel was created other than an attempt to be mean to Palestinians, that also is a bias.
Yes, the Palestinians got massively screwed over and they’re getting the short end of the stick in general right now. I just would like to see if we can find a solution that doesn’t just repeat this cycle for another loop. The person who was born in Tel Aviv in 1986 didn’t create Israel. How do you deal with them?
Jay
@TenguPhule:
If Israel and Palestine are united, into a single democratic state, the population would consist of:
6,276,000 Jewish people,
143,000 Druse,
972,000 Others, Agnostics, Athiests,
5,335,000 “Arabs” of various religions and ethnicities.
So, what would be the politics of the new state?
It probably wouldn’t be Bibi, Hamas or the PA, unless those three could make an alliance, and for a few decades, those who self identify as Jewish will remain a religious/cultural majority.
After that, if demographic trends continue, in about 50 years, it will be Sunni Arab, followed by Jewish, followed by Christian Arab, followed by Athiest/Agnostic, with no one dominant religious/cultural group, (50.01% is what I mean by dominant).
For that to have a chance at peace of course, there would have to be equality, and that would mean the the new State would not be Jewish.
So the new State would have to grapple with the Law of Return, as it would have to either be changed to include the Palestinian diaspora or discontinued.
There are roughly 6,000,000 Palestinians in the diaspora, of whom some number would want to return, some would not, but would simply like the same right to visit easilly.
Some that would want to return, have probably been “radicalized”, many however have been Westernized. Some, would not want to return at all.
zzyzx
@Jay: one of my frustrations with the way things played out is that this is another solution that’s easy to imagine. Before everyone got all radicalized, a protest movement would have hit all of the sweet spots of Jewish culture and I could completely see things moving in that direction. However, angry people understandably were angry and didn’t try that approach.
Cacti
@zzyzx:
FTFY ;-)
zzyzx
@Cacti:
I especially like the bit where you removed my argument. That was a powerful counter. You can’t simultaneously say that stealing land to create a stateless population is an unforgivable act and also have your solution be to steal land to create a stateless population.
TenguPhule
@Jay:
TenguPhule
@Jay:
Whichever side that has the best monopoly on armed force and uses it most effectively to remove the others.
TenguPhule
@patrick II:
To be fair, the Gaza is controlled by Hamas and they’re mainly responsible for the problems there.
Jay
@zzyzx:
Bullshit. Most of the population of Israel under the ancient Isrealis, ( if their myth is true), Palistinians who converted to Judism.
Everytime there is a conquest, there is a conversion.
Who kicked out the Romans? Why arn’t the people who inhabit the region, Romans or Italians.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea
The reason the inhabitants of Palestine arn’t genetically Italian or Roman, is because in the face of armed might, most of the population went along with the power change, even adopting Roman Religions and customs. When the Romans became Christains, so did many of them.
When the various Arab Armies pushed the Byzentines out, same thing happened, some became Shite in the first waves,
The Christian conquest, ditto, Christans again, ( different kind of Christian),
Ottomans, Sunni,
English, back to Christian.
These were all conquests. A small group of “foreigners” dominating the locals with better weapons, tactics, converts, collaberators.
In contrast, the Aliyah was/is an invasion of an already occupied land by a foreign settler movement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
The kindest version of this, were their treatment of their brothers and cousins who remained different, would be the return of a 2,500 year old diaspora into the West, who came “back” with a significantly different admixture, culture and values.
TTT
@Jay: There is no popular constituency for a united state of Israstine.
Most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, who are one or, at most, two generations removed from being ethnically cleansed from the surrounding Arab states. They don’t want to be ruled by Arabs.
Most Israeli Arabs are content with the country and absolutely do not want to be downgraded to the quality of leadership and political freedom they see in the Palestinian Authority.
And a non-trivial portion of both the Jews and the Arabs loathe each other and wish the other would just disappear.
That’s not one country.
Peter Beinart, who started this thread after all, has said that one-state advocates think they’ll make a new South Africa, but are more likely to get Lebanon (or worse).
https://forward.com/opinion/416306/young-anti-zionists-be-uncomfortable-like-i-am-with-my-zionism/
Personally, I think they’ll get Poland. And enough of the Israeli military agrees with me that it will simply never be allowed to happen. Be mad if you want, but don’t be surprised.
The 1SS is, with very few exceptions, ideological colonialism and white-saviorism from people who really don’t get the history, the stakes, or the psychology of the key factions.
I should also point out (and this is not specifically about you) that the near-constant invocation of the South Africa data point in threads like these is no more convincing than neocons confidently declaring every country they don’t like that hour of the day is just like Nazi Germany again, and surely the same old tricks will suffice.
Jay
@TenguPhule:
Then it would remain Israeli, there would be genocides, atrocities and ethnic cleansing.
Or maybe, it would be different, because many of the current alliances would upended.
Bibi and Hamas vs Everybody else but for a couple of tiny factions?
Who knows?
Brant Lamb
@Brachiator: This is a bullshit argument, the Israelis have taken control of land taken in war, in contravention of international law, and are turning out the people who lived on it before, and are taking it to live on, while keeping the righttful owners as prisoners. Why should they have control of land that isn’t theirs?
Jay
@TenguPhule:
Gaza is a open air prison and shooting range for the IDF under a land, sea and air blockaide. Has been for decades.
When Dylan took journalists on a tour of Gaza after the ‘64, he said, “look and see what a garden we make of this place”.
The current Hamas is a product of Israeli policies towards Gaza.
Funny thing is, Shin Bet founded Hamas to undermine the PLA.
TenguPhule
@Jay: Which would still be worse then the current shitstorm they’ve got now. So status quo until the Israelis manage to reform their own government is the least worst thing we can hope for.
TenguPhule
@Jay:
Point of order. The current blockade went up around Gaza after Hamas took over the region and started firing rockets from it.
Every time the blockade starts to be opened up, Hamas gets caught smuggling rocket parts and ammo. Again, counter productive behavior if the goal is the betterment of Palestinian way of life.
Mandalay
@Gravenstone:
Heh. In a very similar (or completely different?) vein, I recall an interview when someone asked Chris Hayes why he was always using obscure words and phrasing in an 8 p.m. news show. Hayes said that was because those words most precisely expressed the idea he was trying to explain.
The interviewer then asked the obvious follow up: “But what if that means that nobody else understands what you’re talking about?….”
That reality check doesn’t seem to have affected Hayes in the slightest. He still swallows a dictionary every night before his show, and then needlessly regurgitates random bits of it to keep his viewers informed.
Brant Lamb
@patrick II: Exactly.
BobS
@Cacti: That’s one of the best descriptions of Israel I’ve read or heard. I’ll be using it.
Procopius
@Jay:
You can do what you like, but I wish you wouldn’t do that. I find trying to decode what’s being referred to too much trouble. To me those are not accepted idioms but rather childish epithets on the same level as “poopyhead.” Lowers the esteem I might otherwise regard you with.