USCIS confirms: As of October 29, children born to U.S. service members outside of the U.S. will no longer be automatically considered citizens.
Their parents will have to apply for citizenship on their behalf. https://t.co/beDHdMgqSM
— Haley Britzky (@halbritz) August 28, 2019
Frankly, I’m taking this as one more data point that Trump doesn’t expect to be around after 2020… or, at least, his loyal minions don’t expect him to be:
… Previously, children born to U.S. citizen parents were considered to be “residing in the United States,” and therefore would be automatically given citizenship under Immigration and Nationality Act 320. Now, children born to U.S. service members and government employees, such as those born in U.S. military hospitals or diplomatic facilities, will not be considered as residing in the U.S., changing the way that they potentially receive citizenship.
The change in policy was first reported by San Francisco Chronicle reporter Tal Kopan.
According to USCIS, previous legislation also explicitly said that spouses of service members who were living outside the U.S. because of their spouses were considered residing in the U.S., but “that no similar provision was included for children of U.S. armed forces members in the acquisition of citizenship context is significant.”
That is one of the reasons why USCIS has now decided that those children are not considered to be residing in the U.S., and therefore will not be automatically given citizenship. Instead, they will fall under INA 322, which considers them to be residing outside the U.S. and requires them to apply for naturalization…
I hope this is quashed with a quickness, because it’s not only cruel and stupid, it’s gonna be a disincentive for recruitment, yes?
Hell – they go to TRUMP PROPERTIES in Miami to birth their kids!
— VLP ? (@VPVP1957) August 28, 2019
debbie
The military better have a vociferous response to this cowardly shit.
TaMara (HFG)
As an Air Force brat with both friends and relatives born to service members outside the US (German, Japan and Philipines bases to be exact) I can’t even imagine how or why anyone would do this. What’s the next step, you have to prove you conceived your chlld on US soil, or it won’t get citizenship? Makes about as much sense.
JPL
Congress even passed a law recognizing McCain’s citizenship WTF
Adam L Silverman
I have no doubt this is part of Stephen Miller’s grand plan to redefine “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in regard to getting rid of birthright citizenship. He was pushing that in cable news TV interviews he was doing from Biarritz during the G7 meetings. That those in the country in an undocumented capacity (entry or overstay), or, perhaps even legally as it is hard to tell with Miller where he draws the line, are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof of the US. I don’t think he really understands the implications here, because if legal immigrants or undocumented persons, or just foreign nationals here as tourists or for a few days or weeks of business meetings, within the US aren’t subject to the jurisdiction thereof, then they’re all impervious to US laws at all levels. We can’t arrest or prosecute them for anything.
Dorothy A. Winsor
“Duel” citizenship? What’s the damn point of doing this?
Sab
I think it’s more important for non-military US govt overseas employees. They are abroad for years and years. Vlad hates the State Dept. and Trump and his guys have been dismantling it from day one. Tillerson and Pompeo.
Gin & Tonic
Read the thread downstairs and the Ken Dilanian correction. People are hyperventilating without all the facts.
Another Scott
@TaMara (HFG): Stephen Miller’s fingerprints are all over this. I assume Donnie and Miller are trying to destroy at every single bit of immigration law and policy and see what they’re able to get away with.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
They nailed it! Literally.
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
But some of the people he’s kicking to the curb are white. Why would he hurt his own demographic?
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
Will it be placed beside the statue of Melania?
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic:
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
I read it. Still cruel and unnecessary.
Suzanne
Wow. Trump really hates the military.
I wonder if the right will stop licking his balls now.
Another Scott
@Gin & Tonic: The Correction Tweet.
Hmm. Some comments are saying that the official summary says something different.
Either way, it’s not a good day for NBC News properties.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Sab
@debbie: Overseas white Americans don’t like Trump. His base folks are rich suburbanites, and rural white people that have never left their home county.
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: Can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: Depends whether there’s a Justin Trudeau statue in the same area she’s making eyes at.
Anne Laurie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
“We’re not letting you in our club, so there.”
I vaguely remember this order being ‘modernized’ in the late 1960s — IIRC, Sen. Teddy Kennedy pushed a ‘reinterpretation’ using the (adorable light-skinned) kids of a US diplomat serving in Ireland as the literal poster kids.
But I’m sure Stephen Miller used the spectre of ‘illegal’ hoplites joining the military to provide cover for their teeming hordes of rugrats. And I’m just as sure the Oval Office Occupant really does think of it as a personal insult to the late John McCain… not to mention Ted Cruz.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: @Another Scott: I’ve read the accompanying guidance. Pages 7 and 8 redefine citizenship for the children born to US uniformed and civilian personnel, who are US citizens, assigned and posted outside the US.
kindness
Much of the military is brown and those that aren’t are poor so of course Miller and Trump will stiff US troops. Honestly though I can not understand the hatred in those folks minds and souls. Sucks to be them.
Sab
So you are an American government employee abroad. You knock up your wife in January. How do you get adequate medical coverage for your wife’s delivery when you ship her home in August to make sure your kid is American born.
This could get complicated.
Baud
@Suzanne:
No you don’t. You’re too smart to wonder about that.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman:
That’s the part that seems to me to be changing here, they’re saying they’re not residing in the US(unless they have a second home that they own or pay rent on in the US), so their children would have to be naturalized upon their return to the US.
ETA: @Adam L Silverman: That’s the impression I got as well.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Sab: It’s more complicated than that, does she rent or own a residence in the US?
Butter Emails
@Adam L Silverman:
Yeah. That’s not how this is going to work. You’re going with the whole laws and their application should be consistent thing and expecting that the courts would apply things that way. It’s literally going to be that people have to obey our laws, but aren’t entitled to the protection of those laws so suck it libtards.
Sab
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Even if you have a second home in the US you aren’t residing there if you live abroad, school your kids abroad, see doctors abroad, get your credit card bills abroad.
You as a Californian should know this. Your state wrote the book on how to nail California tax dodgers trying to pretend they live in Nevada.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: My understanding (IANAL) of the “not in the jurisdiction thereof” was intended for folk in the service of a foreign country(diplomats) and their families. Folk who have diplomatic immunity.
C Stars
The fact that there’s so much confusion about how this change actually affects people (particularly military families residing abroad) doesn’t reflect well on the administration. I mean, not that anything reflects well on this administration, but yeesh, you’d think that some of Trump’s diehard military supporters might take note of how petty and poorly rolled out this policy change is. You’d think… Then again, I defer to @Baud‘s comment above.
Uncle Cosmo
@Adam L Silverman: FWIW there is an obscue 4-line poem by Randall Jarrell that concludes
Paraphrased. IIRC the subject was soldiers coming out of barracks at reveille. (Can’t track down my copy of his Collected Poems or I’d post the full & exact text.)
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Sab: From what I read of the new policy, renting or owning a residence in the US would be sufficient for residency. Franchise Tax Board rulings aside.
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
A few decades ago, I was on a business trip with a few others in the DC area, and recall that we were scared of diplomat plates and avoided being near such vehicles when possible.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
1401(c) says that a child born of two citizens is a citizen at birth if one parent has had previous residency in the U.S. It doesn’t seem to require residency at the time of the birth.
Suzanne
@Baud:
You’re right.
Seriously, though…..if any of our candidates are smart, they will frame this as “the draft dodger hates the military”.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
That may be his plan, but I don’t see how this furthers it. “Subject to the jurisdiction thereof“ is a qualification on people born in the United States. This new rule applies to people born outside of the United States. I don’t see how that you relate to each other.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
Good points. Trouble is, Miller is a fascist who doesn’t care about the law.
Uncle Cosmo
@Another Scott:
There is a nasty rumor that Miller was a test-tube baby where the originally intended blastocyst was swapped out for an embryo cloned from Reinhard Heydrich. (See here. for one-stop visual evidence.)
Baud
@Baud:
Sorry. Typed too quickly.
I don’t see how those two things relate to each other.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: There’s two parts at work here, the first deals with residency and who qualifies for residency, that pertains to foreign nationals whose children are born here(or attempts to set up the groundwork for that), the second part deals with children born outside the US.
scav
It’s also just another straw on the hugh pile of examples that they really seem unable to craft thoughtful, logical, clear legislation / policy. It’s all just seat of the pants sound-bite-based confusion and uncertainty bombshells that will be thrice denied in tweets by dawn accompanied with an ALLCAPS DENUNCIATION OF FAKE NEWS!!
SenyorDave
It seems to me that the military support groups could make a big deal about this and it might have an effect. But they won’t because they reflexively support Republicans. Its too bad some will get screwed but as a group, fuck em’. They are the like the farmers, the GOP screws them time and time again and they still support them.
Mike J
Any Democrat who does not publicly say “Donald Trump hates The Troops™” should just quit right now.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Adam L Silverman:
So, children of service members born abroad will not be considered US citizens? Or is there an exception those on deployment?
My reading is that they are not, but I saw somewhere that there is an exception to service members on official deployment
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I don’t see the first part. Residency has nothing to do with where you’re born.
Brachiator
Jesus Fucking Fuck. Trump is intent on purifying America with his cruel and inane policy. And he is definitely nibbling at the 14th Amendment.
Very interesting that he feels confident enough to fuck with the military and that the GOP leadership happily continues to back his play.
These people are ugly fanatics intent on drawing a hard line between citizen and non-citizen. I know that people keep wanting to point the finger at Stephen Miller, but Trump clearly gets a stiffy out of the idea of hard distinctions between Us and Them.
Sab
@?BillinGlendaleCA: That’s hopeful. Thanks.
The retention rules make my eyes cross when I read them. And now they apply to US citizens serving their country abroad.
Note to self: don’t let a second genration brothel operator run your country.
Barry
@Adam L Silverman: “I don’t think he really understands the implications here, because if legal immigrants or undocumented persons, or just foreign nationals here as tourists or for a few days or weeks of business meetings, within the US aren’t subject to the jurisdiction thereof, then they’re all impervious to US laws at all levels. We can’t arrest or prosecute them for anything.”
That’s irrelevant; they’ll play whatever games they can get away with. People will count as ‘in’ for one purpose and ‘out’ for another.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I think you’re missing the first part, it talks about residency and sets that as the bar for citizenship, at least that’s my reading of the first part.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: I think even one former-resident citizen parent is enough. I know enough people in that circumstance who get a US passport for their child as soon as it’s born, more or less automatically. And they’re just civilians, long term expats.
I just got to the movies and will be out of this thread, but I don’t believe the guidance says what people think it says.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Maybe I’m missing something. The new rule talks about the residency of the parents and how that might affect the citizenship of the child born outside of the United States. However, any child born in the United States is automatically a citizen, subject only to the exception for children not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. I agree that that exception is very narrow, and probably only applies to children of ambassadors.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Gin & Tonic:
If you don’t mind my asking, what movie? I’m so busy with school now I don’t know what’s playing
Gin & Tonic
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Apocalypse Now: Final Cut
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: The first section talks about people “traveling” in the US.
Sab
@Baud: If your parents are both US citizens and you are born abroad, you only get to be a US citizen if you or your parents meet certain (set by statute) residency requirements. If your parents are working for the US govt abroad their whole working lives, they probably don’t meet the residency requirements ( “retention”).
Scott
Can we make it retroactive for Ted Cruz?
Sab
@debbie: They don’t do that.
Brachiator
@Uncle Cosmo: Randall Jarrell, poem
A WAR
There set out slowly, for a Different World,
At four, on winter mornings, different legs …
You can’t break eggs without making an omelette
–That’s what they tell the eggs.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
OK, I missed that, I’ll try to take a look later.
Sab
@Sab: Jeez. I am lecturing you on law, and you are a lawyer. Slinkinf off with head down.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Section F(3) is what caught my attention.
Argiope
Listen, while we’re hating on Stephen Miller, allow me to give us something else to cry about. We’re deporting sick children now who can’t get equivalent care in their home countries. Apologies if my linking skills suck. So does everything else.
Amir Khalid
This seems to me of an ilk with the birther attempts to lawyer Barack Obama’s US citizenship away.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic:
I agree, but the horse has already left the barn for the commentariat here.
cynthia ackerman
I was born in 1961 at the Air Force base in Frankfurt Germany. My birth certificate says I am a US citizen born abroad.
Change that, and I become someone who potentially hates the US.
Barbara
@Sab: It is unusual for people to work abroad for USG their whole working lives. Not that I agree with this but it isn’t exactly clear how many are affected, but a lot of people will be coming back to USA to give birth if they can.
sacrablue
My son wants to know if this new policy can be retroactively applied. He could pick his own country.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: Yes he sought out Miller. And if Miller were to resign tomorrow there are many among the anti-immigrant think tanks started by John Tanton that could take his place. This is one issue he cares about.
Rob
@Bill Arnold:
Hell, I have spent almost my entire life in the DC area and I used to keep an eye open for diplomatic license plates while walking or driving in the city. The main reason I don’t do so now is that I don’t go into the city too much.
debbie
I wonder if this is Trump still raging at John McCain?
Jay
mrmoshpotato
@Adam L Silverman: But it’s only Dump. Where are the statues of all the world’s dictators with their butts exposed ready for Dump to suck them?
JAFD
Meself wonders if a new real estate development opportunity is coming to my neighborhood (between EWR and University Hospital) for ‘extended-stay hotels with medical & support staff & nurseries,etc’ to accomodate expectant mothers wanting to give birth on US soil (we can only hope that New Jersey stays in that category ;-) )
Procopius
From the Task & Purpose article:
OK. If you’re a businessman (say, a middle manager from Goodrich assigned to work in Malaysia monitoring rubber purchases) and your wife has a baby, my understanding is that you have to go to the Embassy and basically fill out a form registering the baby’s birth to an American citizen, thereby completing the “naturalization” process. People in Thailand have to do it routinely. It’s not very onerous, but it does require a trip to the consulate citizens’ affairs section. I would bet the military services and government agencies work out a process where the new parents don’t have to make the trip. We’ll have to wait and see. Takes effect in October, huh? Gee, that’s when the U.S. exits the Universal Postal Union, too, and the Army Postal Agency ends service to the JUSMAGTHAI compound, meaning I will not be able to receive my mail at an APO address any more.
JanieM
Reacting to @JAFD and other comments on this thread, though I haven’t had time to read the whole thread or the entire policy alert word for word, nor am I a lawyer.
Anyhow….
The policy alert contains the following language:
There’s a bunch of other, similar language, aimed at establishing that “extended-stay hotels” etc. do *not* constitute residency, and that residency is what matters, not whether you’re on American soil or not.
All those Chinese people engaging in birthright citizenship tourism have been worrying about this for a while now.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud:
It’s increasingly popular Republican crank theory that that exception excludes all sorts of people. I remember the first time I encountered this, in an argument on Facebook. I couldn’t even figure out what the guy was talking about until I twigged that he was defining undocumented immigrants as an invading army (children of invading armies occupying the US are sometimes held to fall under the exception).
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: If people want to be outraged, I guess you can’t stop them.
Ruckus
@Gin & Tonic:
I would only ask one question of you and Omnes.
How do you think shit for brains and his brainless crew mean this? The letter of the law or their intent?
Caphilldcne
@Rob: People who actually live in DC watch out for Marylanders. Not so much diplomats.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: The plain language of the statute or rule controls when it is clear.* Legislative intent can be used it help clarify the meaning if it is not clear from the text. Legislative intent isn’t always easy to determine. You can’t read the minds of everyone involved. FWIW, I do not think that this rule is a good thing, but it is not the horror show that people have been making it out to be.
That being said, I’ve quit trying to talk people down from ledges. I said my piece in a couple of threads and I will leave it at that. No tone policing or mansplaining for me. I’ve learned my lesson.
*By clear, I mean clear to lawyers and judges, not clear to lay persons.
PeterVE
@debbie: My thoughts exactly. McCain was born in Panama when his father was stationed there, so he would have been a naturalized citizen under this interpretation, and so inelligible to be President.