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Accountability, motherfuckers.

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… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

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You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Ken Vogel Has a Bullshit Story To Tell That Will Help the President and He Would Appreciate It if the President and Rudy Giuliani Would Shut Up Because They Are Screwing Up His Work!

Ken Vogel Has a Bullshit Story To Tell That Will Help the President and He Would Appreciate It if the President and Rudy Giuliani Would Shut Up Because They Are Screwing Up His Work!

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Ken Vogel has a bullshit story to tell about Vice President Biden and his son Hunter Biden that would help the President’s reelection chances. Vogel’s story is bullshit, but he’s very upset that the President and Rudy Giuliani just won’t shut up long enough so that Vogel can peddle his bullshit.

Former FBI Special Agent specializing in counterintelligence Asha Rangappa summarizes Vogel’s efforts very, very well.

How do we know the story that Vogel, as well as the President and Rudy Giuliani, are peddling is bullshit? Because two different publications, The Washington Post and The Intercept have debunked it.

And we know where this disinformation comes from, Russian government media outlets. And they started pushing it all the way back in 2014 most likely because most people reasonably assumed Vice President Biden, as the incumbent vice president would run to succeed President Obama positioning his campaign as a third Obama term (see the dates in the third tweet below). This also shows that Putin’s planning to interfere in US politics and the 2016 presidential election through information warfare goes farther back then has been previously recognized.

There’s another piece to the puzzle that debunks Vogel’s, the President’s, and Giuliani’s bullshit disinformation that they lifted whole cloth from Putin’s information warfare campaign against the United States – the legal and Federal professional ethics piece. And here too, even if everything Vogel, the President, and Giuliani are alleging were true, which it isn’t as both the facts and the timelines do not line up, there is no there there. Here’s a deep dive into these issues to answer a question asked by former Federal prosecutor Ken White, who tweets and blogs as Popehat.

And the response from courtesy of the Thread Reader Ap:

asked if anyone had done a law-based deep dive into the allegations that Biden somehow did something legally impermissible (i.e., conflict of interest) by being involved in the Ukraine prosecutor negotiations. I decided to look into it. BLUF: No /Tweetstorm
First off, the general financial conflict of interest laws that generally prohibit Federal employees from participating in matters in which they have financial interests (namely 18 USC.208) expressly do not apply to the Vice President (nor the President). 18 USC 202(c)
Moreover, w/r/t family members of executive branch employees, the primary financial conflict of interest statute only prohibits employees from participating in particular matters in which the employee, their spouse, or their MINOR children have a financial interest. 18 USC 208(a)
So, even assuming for the sake of argument that the conflict of interest statute applied to the VP & even if the departure of the prosecutor were to have had an impact on Hunter’s finances (which all reputable reports suggest was an impossibility given the timeline of events)…
the VP’s involvement in discussions re: the prosecutor still would not have constituted a criminal conflict of interest because Hunter was obviously not a MINOR child at the time.
That said, if the Federal conflict of interest laws did apply to the VP, the fact that a criminal conflict didn’t exist under the statute wouldn’t have ended the legal analysis…
Federal employees are also subject to Standards of Ethical Conduct, which are set out in broader regulations issued by the Office of Govt Ethics. 5 CFR 2635.
Under the Standards of Ethical Conduct, Federal employees generally should recuse themselves from participating in certain matters even if there is no prohibited financial conflict of interest under 18 USC 208.
Under 5 CFR 2635.502, an employee is generally required to recuse when there is a “particular matter involving specific parties, the employee has a “covered relationship” (such as a close family) and a reasonable person would question their impartiality.
Applying this here, even if it were true (its not!) that the prosecutor was investigating the company Biden’s son was involved with at the time that Biden was engaged in discussions re: the prosecutor’s removal, its not clear that this rule would be directly applicable here…
The rule, by its terms, only applies to “particular matters involving specific parties,” which is intentionally narrow and applies to specific proceedings affecting the legal rights of the parties or transactions between identified parties. 5 CFR 2640.102(1).
Examples of such matters are particular contracts, grants, product approval applications, litigation, investigations, etc. Here, it seems a stretch to say that discussions re whether the prosecutor should remain in his position was a “particular matter involving specific parties”
Moreover, even if you stretched & decided it met that definition, the particular rule would not apply directly here anyway, because Biden’s son (nor even the company) was most definitely NOT a party to the matter at issue (whether the prosecutor should remain in his position)…
A caveat: there’s a catch-all provision at 5 CFR 2635.502(a)(2), acknowledging that even in other circumstances not addressed in the reg, an employee should generally recuse anytime their participation in a matter would reasonably raise a question re: their impartiality.
If Biden’s son was involved with a company under active investigation by the Ukrainian prosecutor (again, apparently this is not true!)…
I think nearly any Federal ethics official would have cited this regulation and advised the VP NOT to get involved in discussions regarding the future of the Ukrainian prosecutor, even if only to avoid creating the appearance of a potential conflict
Even still, this is very much a judgment call and even under this incredibly-strained counter-factual hypothetical, the VP’s involvement still would NOT have been a criminal violation.
In short, even if the VP wasn’t exempt from these conflict of interest laws, and even if the facts were other than they actually appear to be, Biden’s behavior still would have been lawful. /End @waltshaub @NormEisen @RWPUSA

Vogel, the President, Giuliani, even the Vice President, are all peddling this bullshit or actively involved with trying to get Ukraine’s new president and his government to assist them in ratfucking the 2020 presidential election, really ratfuck the Democratic primaries, to the President’s benefit. So we already know the cui bono or who stands to benefit piece of this active measures information warfare campaign of disinformation aimed at the American people: the President. What we don’t know, but someone really should be looking into it, is what exactly does Ken Vogel get out of this? What does he stand to benefit? The real question here is why is Vogel clearly peddling debunked Russian disinformation that was created and first used back in 2014 to help obscure Putin’s moves to scarf up Crimea, invade the Donbass, and potentially dirty up a potential Biden 2016 candidacy? Is Vogel just a useful idiot or is he actively participating in an act of information warfare begun by Putin, weaponized by Giuliani and the President, which is intended to propagandize Americans in order to achieve Putin’s strategic interests? This is the real story, not the bullshit that Vogel is pushing. Enterprising reporters and investigators should be looking into it; trying to figure out exactly why Vogel is doing this and what he is getting out of it.

Open thread!

PS: Someone should really also be looking into exactly what it is that Giuliani has been doing in Europe, especially the post Soviet states, over the better part of the past ten to fifteen years supposedly as part of his consulting work as a security expert, which he is not. Journalists and investigators should also be looking into who has been paying for whatever it is he’s been doing. It isn’t all just beer, skittles, and cuckolding Marines. And it clearly has made Giuliani a very wealthy man.

Full Disclosure: I served as the Cultural Advisor (senior civilian advisor for culture) to the Commanding General of US Army Europe under temporary assigned control (TACON) from December 2013 to June 2014 and under operational control (OPCON) from June to August 2014. The views expressed here are solely my own and do not reflect those of US Army Europe and the US Army either in 2014 or now.

Reader Interactions

247Comments

  3. 3.

    Adam L Silverman

    @trollhattan: They do some good stuff. Mehdi Hassan writes there and he’s sharp as a tack and almost always on point.

    The bigger takeaway should be that this bit of disinformation was started as part of a Russian information warfare op from 2014!

  5. 5.

    Matt

    what exactly does Ken Vogel get out of this? What does he stand to benefit?

    Nuclear take: maybe he’s just a fascist. Maybe he goes home every night and rubs one out while imagining crying children in cages.

    The NYT has been run by fascists for a long time, we need to stop pretending otherwise.

  6. 6.

    trollhattan

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Pretty astonishing to think they stuck with it five years. And one wonders, how many unseen parallel efforts are ongoing, just to keep them viable “in case.”

  7. 7.

    James E Powell

    I don’t have the resources to do an investigation, but I do have the ability to make reasonable inferences. In this case, my inference is that the NYT wants Trump re-elected but they don’t want to be completely obvious about it, like FOX. They are not going to promote him as the greatest ever, they are just going to downplay or avoid talking about his corruption while pounding every RW bullshit claim against any D who might get the nomination and the eventual nominee. They don’t need to do any work on those because they will just publish whatever stories the Republicans give them.

    That’s what they did in 2016 and it worked for them.

  8. 8.

    debbie

    Where are the investigations of Trump’s business practices? Pretty nervy of Trump calling anyone out on this kind of thing.

  11. 11.

    John Revolta

    Speaking of The Intercept, I wonder why they haven’t mentioned how we blew up 30 or 40 pine nut farmers in Afghanistan with a drone strike the other day? What was the name of that guy over there who was all
    “DRROOOOAANNNNEZZZ!!” back in the Obama days? Mr. Greenjeans? Oh well.

  14. 14.

    Quaker in a Basement

    “…and cuckolding Marine’s wives.”

    No, he is cuckolding a Marine, not the wife. Unless you mean to say that Rudy is sexing the Marine. This has been your Daily Language Pedant announcement. We return you to your comment thread, in progress.

  20. 20.

    Chyron HR

    But I don’t understand, the assholes who claim to constitute the American left have declared, on this very website, that the Democrats just have to cut the NYT a check and they will start being truthful and fair in their reporting.

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: Given that Bakaj is of counsel at Zaid’s firm, Zaid had previously represented Bakaj in his successful lawsuit against the previous and acting IC IG last year, I’m not in the least bit surprised.

  26. 26.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Baud: I’m deleting this. Not here. Not even as a joke. That poor family has been through too much by these asshats.

  30. 30.

    JPL

    At this point at every opportunity the democratic candidates need to say the president is a liar. They don’t need to expound on it.

  32. 32.

    Duane

    Kay was saying much the same at the bottom of the last thread. It’s Russians Trumpov, FNYT and the season for treason. Fuckem.

  33. 33.

    JaySinWA

    Kurt Eichenwald takes on Ken Vogel NYT in disarray! Read the whole thing.

    1. It is very rare that I criticize a reporter by name. However, the recklessness and poor reporting of @kenvogel – and his "we're going to keep pulling back the Biden story" garbage requires pointing out the abject poverty of his "reporting" and his attempts to take a few…— Kurt Eichenwald (@kurteichenwald) September 21, 2019

  34. 34.

    MomSense

    @Baud:
    He killed him in the basement of the comet ping pong pizza parlor with Anthony Weiner’s laptop.

    I’m spending the weekend with my dad while he recovers from back surgery. He’s taking a nap and I’m sitting here keeping him company while tonight’s dinner (split pea soup) simmers on the stove.

  36. 36.

    The Moar You Know

    So far this seems to have done nothing but Streisand effect, in that most are reporting that a Russian attempt is being made to throw the election and the allegations are bullshit. The NYT could possibly reverse that, but time’s running out.

    Deeply hilarious if this ends up helping Biden and hurting Trump. It easily could.

  39. 39.

    WaterGirl

    @MomSense: Sorry to hear your dad had back surgery. But it’s a pretty good sign that your dad is a lot stronger than he was, yes? That they think he could handle surgery?

  43. 43.

    Kay

    I don’t know why everyone’s so upset. The NYTimes is working with “Rudy” on a story. Not the first time, I’d wager!

    If there hadn’t have been a whistleblower we’d all be wondering 6 months from now why the NYTimes is obsessed with Hunter Biden so at least this time we got a head’s up.

  44. 44.

    Adam L Silverman

    Just as an FYI, I added this full disclosure above:

    I served as the cultural advisor (senior civilian advisor for culture) to the Commanding General of US Army Europe under temporary assigned control (TACON) from December 2013 to June 2014 and under operational control (OPCON) from June to August 2014. The views expressed here are solely my own and do not reflect those of US Army Europe and the US Army either in 2014 or now.

  45. 45.

    JPL

    @Cheryl Rofer: or Adam… Why does the whistleblower need a lawyer at this point. Knowing the administration it is smart idea, but is it necessary in normal situations.

  48. 48.

    Adam L Silverman

    @JPL: Because, as I wrote in my post the other night, the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act does NOT actually provide any protections for Intelligence Community and/or national security whistleblowers. So hiring a lawyer who specializes in this stuff before proceeding is a very, very, very smart move that can well preserve both one’s career and one’s clearances. I would, in general, highly recommend that no one act as a whistleblower without first consulting and retaining a qualified attorney who specializes in whistleblower law to act on your behalf.

  50. 50.

    MomSense

    @WaterGirl:

    He seems so frail, but it was either surgery or never walk again and he’s a fighter. It’s kind of nice just being here the two of us.

  53. 53.

    sharl

    Got notice of this post via Cheryl’s tweet. Well done!

    Regarding Giuliani, I formed my conclusion about him a couple years ago, in light of the pro-Trump political corruption in the FBI’s NYC field office. Rudy was a conduit for that crap. But from nycsouthpaw’s TL, here’s someone who apparently been documenting Rudy’s travels and whatnot for awhile, e.g.,

    This is so alarming. Rudy Giuliani really only travels abroad for 3 reasons:1. Collect paychecks from foreign govt's for "cybersecurity consulting" 2. Conduct secret, backchannel foreign policy negotiations3. Launder Americans voter data to ex-US entities for cyber operations https://t.co/mykQqTYHxo— Portlus Glam (@PortlusGlam) October 20, 2018

    I don’t see much new in Portlus Glam’s twitter TL or on her Medium page, though Rudy’s corruption is timeless and follows a more-or-less consistent pattern. With a corrupt Attorney General in place, I’m not optimistic that justice will be served to Rudy or the NYC FBI scumbags any time soon, if ever. There’s a lot more from Portlus Glam that I’ve only glanced at, which I haven’t verified and won’t try; I’m prepared to believe anything negative about Giuliani I see, based solely on what IS known about him.

  55. 55.

    WaterGirl

    @Adam L Silverman: I heard on either Preet’s podcast with Susan Hennessey or a Lawfare podcast from this week that those guys have their own special/separate whistleblower protection statute or act. And that is the sum total I know about that, which isn’t much. But it seemed better than nothing.

  56. 56.

    Kay

    You know what we need to straighten this mess out? We need to hear from the whistleblower.

    If this were any other fucking President everyone in media would be demanding the President disclose. This isn’t funny anymore. These people need to explain why they REFUSE to hold this President to ordinary ethical and transparency norms.

    Enough. Whatever it is- book deals, career concerns, a certain affection for authoritarian manly men, we need to know why they have all decided that Donald Trump is a ONE-OFF who is exempted from rules. They supposedly enforce the standards of their profession. Set some and start enforcing them. They get legal protections and that is supposed to be in return for some value that is in the public interest. Their fucking book deal or personal career trajectory isn’t the public interest.

  58. 58.

    WaterGirl

    @Kay: I keep thinking that surely this will be the thing that gets the Dems off the bench and opening real impeachment hearings. They have to defend our constitution.

  59. 59.

    germy

    @The Moar You Know:

    Deeply hilarious if this ends up helping Biden and hurting Trump. It easily could.

    It would also piss off Trump if all these clouds and shadows cost Biden the nomination, and Trump gets his ass kicked by Democratic nominee Warren.

  60. 60.

    Adam L Silverman

    @aj: I don’t have a twitter account. I monitor it for work I do, as well as for analytical and Floriduh! Man/Woman posts here. But I don’t tweet.

  63. 63.

    Adam L Silverman

    @WaterGirl: This’ll get you up to speed.
    https://balloon-juice.com/2019/09/20/the-intelligence-whistleblowers-life-is-over-because-the-intelligence-community-whistleblower-protection-act-does-not-actually-protect-intelligence-community-and-national-security-whistleblowers/

    Also, my broken into two parts column for The Ark Valley Voice:
    https://arkvalleyvoice.com/thinking-security-counterintelligence-concerns-from-the-intelligence-community-whistleblowers-complaint/
    https://arkvalleyvoice.com/thinking-security-part-ii-on-the-whistleblowers-complaint-and-potential-counterintelligence-threat/

  64. 64.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @WaterGirl:

    I keep thinking that surely this will be the thing that gets the Dems off the bench and opening real impeachment hearings. They have to defend our constitution.

    And what happens when admin/Republican witnesses blow those off too? How would they be held to account?

  66. 66.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: I’ve seen a number of people already demand the President disclose. From former officials, to current Democratic members of the House and the Senate, to commenters.

    As for hearing from the whistleblower, that is a bad idea. If he or she says anything they can and, I expect, will be charged with violations of the Espionage Act.

  67. 67.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @JPL: Any whistleblower needs a lawyer.

    As we saw in Adam’s post yesterday (or the day before?), the whistleblower laws are tricky, and a lawyer can guide the person through, to do the proper thing at the proper time, to assure both that what they have to say will be heard and to protect the whistleblower against the inevitable blowback.

    Also, the law firm involved with this has experience in the area, which the whistleblower does not, so they can anticipate the kinds of trouble/ objections that are likely to come up and prepare the documents to anticipate or avoid as much as possible.

    And when you go up against any president, you need a lawyer.

    Blowing the whistle is a one-shot deal, so you need to get it right. For whatever reasons, Edward Snowden got it wrong. There are many other ways to get it wrong.

    The whistleblower’s identity will come out, whatever the supposed protections. I would be surprised if the White House didn’t have a VERY good idea who it is. As Adam said, this person will never work in the government again, even a Democratic government. They might become an advisor and critic as Daniel Ellsberg has. But there is no going back. And there is plenty of reason for the whistleblower to be moving to a place where nobody knows them. Christine Blasey Ford got death threats. People on Twitter get death threats for tweets. Lawyers can help in this.

    This is a very brave person and they need a lawyer badly.

  69. 69.

    Kay

    @WaterGirl:

    I don’t have that much faith in impeachment as a process. It’s too arbitrary for me. Anything that doesn’t apply to lying to start a war that kills hundreds of thousands of people but does apply to perjury in a civil case seems to me to be a hugely flawed tool. I like tools that work. This one, this endlessly elastic impeachment thing, I don’t know WTF it’s for or anything.
    I knew the day he was elected he wasn’t going to follow the laws without an enforceable order and many contempt citations. There aren’t a lot of people like him but there are enough so the type becomes familiar if you practice law. They have to be hammered. They often inspire BIGGER hammers! These people are the reason laws exist. They have no internal governor of any kind. It has to be external and it has to be harsh.
    The impeachment discussion is interesting to me, but ultimately abstract. I don’t think it’s reliable. I myself wouldn’t lean on it.

  70. 70.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kelly: Norm is a friend. I sent it to him and let him know if he thought it was worthwhile, that I’d be honored if he’d tweet it out. He did the counterintelligence one the other night as well.

  72. 72.

    Kathleen

    @Kay:

    Is Vogel just a useful idiot or is he actively participating in an act of information warfare begun by Putin, weaponized by Giuliani and the President, which is intended to propagandize Americans in order to achieve Putin’s strategic interests?

    I think Adam has nailed not only Ken Vogel but most of the NYT and a large percentage of other print and broadcast outlets. Engaging media is on To Do list of those hatching coup.

  73. 73.

    WaterGirl

    @MomSense: I can see how it would be nice to have it be just you and him. A simple dinner out, just my dad and me when I was 18, is one of my fondest memories.

    Did you ever locate the email I sent you? Sounds like you have your hands full, so totally not nagging, just want to be sure it arrived, at least.

  74. 74.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: Snowden got it wrong because he’s not a whistleblower. He was a/the key human asset in a planned and executed Russian intelligence operation.

  75. 75.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @MomSense:

    I’m spending the weekend with my dad while he recovers from back surgery. He’s taking a nap and I’m sitting here keeping him company while tonight’s dinner (split pea soup) simmers on the stove.

    That sounds nice. Hope dinner is delicious and your father has a speedy recovery!

  76. 76.

    Spanky

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Blowing the whistle is a one-shot deal, so you need to get it right. For whatever reasons, Edward Snowden got it wrong.

    Point of order. Edward Snowden was NOT a whistleblower, else he wouldn’t have needed to take two (or 3?) laptops full of intelligence data and techniques first to CHINA, then to RUSSIA. He was a foreign intelligence asset, no more and no less. The “whistleblower” shit was just to muddy the waters.

  79. 79.

    Kathleen

    @Adam L Silverman:

    He was a/the key human asset in a planned and executed Russian intelligence operation.

    Thank you. For this insight and the article. I really value your knowledge and perspective.

  80. 80.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @JPL: One of the things I’ve been thinking is that going public at some point might be beneficial for the whistleblower. It would give them a measure of protection from the crazies with guns. They could ask for police protection. It’s one of the decisions a law firm with experience in the area can help advise on.

  83. 83.

    Spanky

    @Kay: So I have a legal question. Did the opinion that a sitting President cannot be indicted originate in Nixon’s Administration? Was it not again upheld by Clinton’s Administration? Were both of those presidents not in danger of being indicted at the time of those opinions?

    Why are those opinions not considered tainted?

  84. 84.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Since this is an open thread, I’ll use it to share the sad news that Tommy Young apparently passed away about ten months ago (November 2018).

    I know there was some bitterness during an unsuccessful site rebuild a few years back, but I always thought his motives were good and he was a sweet, well-meaning person. I hope he can rest in peace.

  89. 89.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    That’s terrible! I remember Tommy vaguely. I lurked when he was still posting here. He seemed nice enough. Do you know how he passed away? RIP

  91. 91.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Spanky: It was created during the Nixon administration in order to allow for the DOJ to go forward with their prosecution of Vice President Agnew. The larger context was that DOJ OLC was already aware that Congress was working towards impeachment, so they didn’t have to worry about potentially prosecuting a sitting president that would leave the country with an indicted or under prosecution sitting vice president assuming the presidency. The whole thing is a 1973 specific Rube Goldberg legal device to prevent the creation of a line of succession nightmare and crisis.

  93. 93.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:

    No, the obituary didn’t say.

    His father passed just a couple of days ago. His brother Jeff posted that news on FB, and said it had been a very tough ten months with Tommy’s death last November, and his father’s death from cancer just six weeks after being diagnosed. Tommy was a Facebook “friend,” although he hadn’t posted in a few years.

  96. 96.

    Mary G

    @SiubhanDuinne: RIP Tommy, even if he went off the rails at the end. He brought us Alain, too, or am I remembering it wrong?

    Adam, thanks for this post. I wondered on Twitter yesterday what Putin had on Vogel and am glad that I’m not alone.

  98. 98.

    SWMBO

    @SWMBO: His favorite quotes from his Facebook:

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. – Albert Einstein

    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. — Aristotle

    It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all. — Edward de Bono

    Life is trying things to see if they work. — Ray Bradbury

    The stone age didn’t end because they ran out of stones. – Unknown

  104. 104.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @SWMBO: @SiubhanDuinne:
    That’s awful, especially for the remaining brother. Losing your brother and father within the same year can’t be easy, which he stated.

    @Mary G:

    It’s been so long, I can’t remember. How did he go off the rails? I remember he had some kind of freak out or something on here

  105. 105.

    Alain

    @SiubhanDuinne: thanks for the news.

    @Mary G: yes, we became brief business partners. When I drove past Mascoutah, IL on my way East back from Colorado, I wondered how he was doing. Sorry to hear the bad news.

  111. 111.

    trollhattan

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    That’s a shame, sorry to hear.

    Not that I’m good at reading people in person, much less over the internet but he projected an undercurrent of sadness when engaged here. Hope he found peace.

  112. 112.

    Kay

    @Spanky:

    I don’t know. When it came about. I do know though that impeachment for me is so wildly arbitrary that it is, IMO, a useless tool

    In regular-person legal world, people who think they are exempt from rules have to be sanctioned repeatedly. Even then they sometimes don’t comply, but it’s more a matter of applying persistent and patient opposition than clever lawyering. If they don’t follow the judgment you file contempt. If they still don’t you attach a lien. And so forth. It costs and it absolutely fucking ENRAGES the person on the other side, the person who DOES follow laws, but you’re really just wearing the lawbreaker down and it kind of runs out of steam and ends. The other thing that stops them is an EXTERNAL event. They’re assholes and they create discord and misery so bad things happen to them. Sometimes the bad things that happen to them act as check on their behavior.
    Following laws is 99% consent. Most people don’t need to be hammered, which is good, because there wouldn’t be enough police and jails to hold them all if this social contract fell apart and everyone behaved like Donald Trump and the people he hires. IMO we’re watching it fall apart. It’s spreading. It’ll trickle down too, because if people at the top are just scoffing at laws people at the bottom will start to, too. It was always fragile. It’s an agreement. Without voluntary compliance it no longer exists.

  115. 115.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Steeplejack:

    This is the obituary for the father, Tommy II. Bold refers to “our” Tommy, Tommy III.

    Obituary

    Dr. Tommy R. Young II, 78, of Mount Carmel, Illinois, passed away Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at The Linda E. White Hospice House in Evansville, Indiana surrounded by the love of his family. He was born August 10, 1941 in Princeton, Indiana, the son of Dr. Tommy R. Young and Katherine (Anstaett) Young. He married Joyce Brewer on June 25, 1966 and together they enjoyed fifty-three years of marriage. At the age of fourteen, Tommy attended the Kentucky Military Institute where he graduated in 1959. Tommy was a graduate of DePauw University, University of Arkansas and Louisiana State University obtaining his PhD in American History. He had quite an extensive teaching career teaching at Texas Tech University, US Army Command & General Staff College, the University of Missouri, Kansas City, St. Mary’s College at Kansas State Men’s Penitentiary and the US Disciplinary Barracks. In 1981 Tommy went to work as a historian at the Air Force Communications Command Center. He would later transfer to the Office of History at the Air Mobility Command. Tommy retired in September of 2001, then he and Joyce returned to the family home in Mt. Carmel. In Retirement he continued to write encyclopedia articles on Military Communications. In addition, he wrote a history of the Kentucky Military Institute. Tommy also served on the Board of the Wabash County Museum and was a member of the Board of the Wabash Valley College Foundation. Tommy will forever be remembered by his wife, Joyce; son, Jeffrey Young his wife, Sarah of Swansea, Illinois; granddaughter, Katherine Young; and many friends he made all throughout his life. Tommy was preceded in death by his parents; one son, Tommy R. Young III. In keeping with Tommy’s wishes, there will be no public services. A private burial will take place at Rose Hill Cemetery in Mt. Carmel, Illinois. Memorial contributions may be made in Tommy’s memory to the Linda White Hospice House, 611 Harriet Street, Evansville, IN 47710. Keepes Funeral Home is serving the family with the arrangements. To view Tommy Young’s tribute wall and leave condolences for the Young family, please visit http://www.keepesfuneralhome.com

    To send flowers or a remembrance gift to the family of Dr. Tommy R. Young II, please visit our Tribute Store.

    Additionally — which I only saw when I looked at his FB page — this past summer, on his birthday, there were a few messages saying things like “Happy birthday in heaven,” “Missing you on your birthday,” and similar.

  118. 118.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:
    I’d say, using just my BGJ (best guess judgment) that they really are all in this together and are profiting in some way from this. They may only have their own backsides in mind but they do think/know they will gain, professionally, monetarily or both. IOW I’d bet that vlad is putting some of his cash to better use for him than buying another billion dollar home. All roads do seem to lead back to vlad. He has no legal issues to think about, this doesn’t even have to be about power – but it always will be with him, he could be doing it for the giggles. In his circles this is/would be costing him chump change, and what else is he going to do with it? He has been an enemy of the US his entire life, he isn’t going to change as long as air goes in and out.

  119. 119.

    Alain

    @Mary G: thanks! It’s not often in life that one can jump deep into a community you’ve followed for years. I comment more than I used to, but I’m much more a reader, so I was a stranger to everyone; my entré was indeed working with Tommy on the rebuild. I read his comments about the site and figured we could team up and make it better.

  121. 121.

    WaterGirl

    @Mary G: Oh, dear. I fear an Al Franken thread might be headed our way. I hope we can resist that; nothing good ever comes of those kinds of threads.

  122. 122.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Mary G:
    He did seem to have his quirks, but yeah he didn’t deserve to be bullied for being in over his head

  129. 129.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:
    Very interesting take. I like it and agree with it as well.
    It seems to me that impeachment was put in as a sweetener so that some concept of a totally corrupt person could be taken out. It requires so many people to line up reasonably to make it work and of course the Bill Clinton thing sort of screwed up the concept of impeachment that it does seem to be a shibboleth any more. And with moscow’s bitch making himself the entire senate it is a totally useless tool.

  130. 130.

    patrick II

    I am reminded of the many stories about the Clinton Foundation, which is an actual highly rated foundation doing good work around the world, compared to the many fewer stories about the Trump Foundation which was just a scam. So, now we have Biden’s son who actually did some work for a company that had nothing to do with his father, and at the same time we have Jared Kushner getting a loan through a Qatar front company to bail out him out from bankruptcy not long after Kushner had meetings with Saudi, gave them classified information and names of Saudi dissenters, after which Saudi blockaded Qatar. One seems much more serious than the other. Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Mr. Vogel needs sort of pull that back and do a ten-part front-page story on Kushner to straighten me out. I’m not expecting it.

  131. 131.

    WaterGirl

    @Kay: I see what you are saying. I think, though, that Congress needs to stand up and hold their ground as an equal branch of government before we get to the point of no return. Which, I believe, we are nearer to than I like to believe.

  132. 132.

    Bill Arnold

    Another from The Intercept, topical because of the upcoming Modi-Trump rally in Houston. (11:00 AM Houston time if i’m reading it correctly, with more events earlier in morning.)
    How the White Nationalists Who Love Trump Found Inspiration in the Group That Gave Us Narendra Modi (Mehdi Hasan, September 21 2019)

    How to watch, and everything else you need to know about Modi’s Houston mega event (Niharika Sharma, September 21, 2019)
    Donald Trump Is Holding a Rally With… Narendra Modi? – With this weekend’s stadium event in Houston, America First will meet India First. (Jeet Heer, 2019/09/20)
    Schedule. The weather is suggesting that it might not collaborate. :-)
    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/modi-us-visit-date-timings-schedule-events-howdy-modi-1601751-2019-09-21

  134. 134.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @NotMax:

    Oh my. He was a young’un, too IIRC.

    Just a few months shy of 50 when he died. July 12, 1969 – November 20, 2018.

  137. 137.

    NotMax

    @patrick II

    Maybe Mr. Vogel needs sort of pull that back and do a ten-part front-page story on Kushner to straighten me out.

    “Jared Kushner is the kindest, warmest, bravest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.”

    // // //

  139. 139.

    Bill Arnold

    LGM today:
    Ken Vogel: Hack reporter on the make (Paul Campos, September 21, 2019)
    Paul uplifted a long interesting reader comment

    …But hey, that doesn’t raise your profile as a hot young reporter, whereas “Joe Biden – questions remain despite overwhelming evidence he did nothing wrong” gets you plenty of talking head invites. This is a structural failing in the US media economy, but goddamn Vogel’s exploitation of it is really galling.

    then added:

    Listen. Understand. “It’s out there” is out there. It can’t be reasoned with, it can’t be bargained with. It doesn’t feel pity of remorse or fear and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until American democracy is dead.

  141. 141.

    Jeffro

    Kevin Kruse on Twitter: “The break-in at the Democratic National Committee’s headquarters at the Watergate Hotel raises some troubling questions about just what it is that the Democrats are hiding there”

    Also noted by many: if Pelosi thinks that trumpov will benefit from a Senate vote to acquit, what does she think he’ll do with the House’s failure to even impeach?

  142. 142.

    piratedan

    @Cheryl Rofer: to be honest, I have to say that in no way/fashion/understanding of his actions would I consider Snowden to be a whistle blower, much more likely he was part of the continuing FSB/Putin/Russian Ops plan against America, just my humble opinion mind you.

    This other person, whose identity is not yet commonly known, we shall wait and see.

  153. 153.

    SWMBO

    @Steeplejack: His house burned May 7 2017 (he posted a picture on Facebook). He lived in Mascoutah, Illinois until then. He didn’t post much after that except to say he was living in a hotel room that sucked. I don’t think his beloved cat survived the fire.

  154. 154.

    Baud

    @JaySinWA:

    Truth. Sadly, it was Fox News that popularized this form of argument. We used to call it the Cavuto mark, referring to the question mark at the end.

  158. 158.

    J R in WV

    @SWMBO:

    That sounds right to me too, although I didn’t want to say anything without support from someone.

    A really sad ending for a smart guy. Losing your home and cat, really sad.

  159. 159.

    lgerard

    Someone should really also be looking into exactly what it is that Giuliani has been doing in Europe, especially the post Soviet states, over the better part of the past ten to fifteen years supposedly as part of his consulting work as a security expert, which he is not.

    Wrong!

    Rudy was the TV spokesperson for Lifelock, which makes him one of trump’s most qualified stooges

  161. 161.

    laura

    I can smell the president’s ass all over Ken Vogel’s face all the way here in California.
    I’m glad to see him getting called out in real time and hope that the election interference/disinformation from 2014 gets more reportage that doesn’t continue the “there must be something there if we just keep digging” or Dems in disarray.
    Not at all sad that Cokie’s missing a chance to weigh in.

  162. 162.

    lumpkin

    Biden’s response so far suggests he intends to participate in his own ratfucking. I really fear that he is going to be nominated and will be destroyed by team gop/nyt. There is just enough complexity to this story that it can be twisted and distorted into clouds, doubts and shadows and the nyt will be more than happy to do that on behalf of trump.

  163. 163.

    banditqueen

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thank you for letting BJ know–so thoughtful of you.
    @SWMBO: and thank you for your updates on this as well.
    He seemed to be someone who was struggling but kept on trying anyway, which is admirable to me.
    I hope he is at peace now.

  165. 165.

    jeffreyw

    @laura:

    I can smell the president’s ass all over Ken Vogel’s face all the way here in California.
    I’m glad to see him getting called out in real time and hope that the election interference/disinformation from 2014 gets more reportage that doesn’t continue the “there must be something there if we just keep digging” or Dems in disarray.
    Not at all sad that Cokie’s missing a chance to weigh in.

    He’s not writing that for the people that are calling him out. He doesn’t care about them. He’s doing it for those who will see it and then call him up: “Hey, we could use a man like you. We like that you have no shame.”

  166. 166.

    mrmoshpotato

    @laura:

    I can smell the president’s ass all over Ken Vogel’s face all the way here in California.

    Thankfully, the winds are blowing correctly over Illinois.

    (Not that I doubt Vogel’s face reeking of Dump’s fat, orange, fascist ass.)

  168. 168.

    BRyan

    Sorry to read about Tommy. That whole immensely sad and depressing episode, the back-and-forth that resulted in his keys being taken away, was the only time I remember this blog going truly jackal.

  169. 169.

    Nelle

    I skipped ahead to report on the Polk County Democrat Steak Fry. They sold 12,000 tickets and all candidates were there, including some I’ve never heard of (and they did not get stage time). The biggest crowd response was for Elizabeth Warren. Biden had a lot of supporters there. But I heard a lot of comments (from retirees) that he’s just too old for the rigors of the audience. Castro got a lit of appreciation for his story, if elected, of saying “Adios, Trump.” I had an extra button like that and gave it to Booker, who laughed and pocketed it.

    Bernie did not get much response from the crowd at all. When we got there in the morning, all the candidate gathering spaces had supporters. Not Bernie’s tent. An hour later, still none. I didn’t even see Bernie signs in the crowd. (There was even a Tulsie group.)

  170. 170.

    Elizabelle

    @SWMBO: Tommy Young’s cat did survive the fire. I read back through old FB posts, and he posted a picture of her in her carrier. His message: “Cat made it out. She has had better days. Happy I didn’t get that cheap plastic carrier. The cloth one is more her thinking.” Also commented that the fire apparently started in an (electrical) outlet.

    Very sad to hear of his passing. With a dad born in 1941, Tommy III did not get the gift of years. Someone mentioned he died the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, last year.

    @ Siubhan: thank you for letting us know.

  172. 172.

    Elizabelle

    @J R in WV: Tommy lost his home and then his life maybe 18 months plus (??) later, sadly, but it’s possible kitteh is still around.

    Too young.

  174. 174.

    cain

    @lumpkin:
    Then better this shit happen now.. if he’s particpating in his own ratfucking then he’ll be out of the race and Warren can pick it up.

  175. 175.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    Sad to hear about Tommy, we had some things in common…being a bit on the short side, a 3 sticks… He recommended that I use Lightroom(told me I’d be a fool not to, he was right). I think that he, being a commenter, thought he could better understand what Balloon Juice needed in a rebuild, unfortunately he didn’t understand that familiarity breeds contempt(especially with Jackals). That’s why I think we’re doing it right this time, having faceless programmers doing the work with an able person(thanks WaterGirl) interfacing between the users and the programming folk. RIP Tommy.

  176. 176.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @BRyan: Sorry to read about Tommy. That whole immensely sad and depressing episode, the back-and-forth that resulted in his keys being taken away, was the only time I remember this blog going truly jackal.

    I managed to miss almost all of that, and I’m not sorry about that. Sorry to hear he passed.

  177. 177.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Elizabelle: Found an article about the men who pulled him from his house. They said there was a downed power line behind the house.

  179. 179.

    JPL

    The president is insinuating that the whistleblower is a spy. holy f.k

    I assume this means there is going to be another article coming out.

  185. 185.

    Chetan Murthy

    @zhena gogolia:

    She is really good.

    She is, isn’t she? I’ve rarely watched her speeches [was convinced by her work already.] I found especially entertaining (in a “wow, she’s gooood”) way, how she would take one of Colbert’s questions, and turn it into an oppty to reiterate one of her positions and talking points. It almost didn’t matter what the question was, and she was good enough at it, that it was difficult to see the point where she “flips in midair to land on her feet”. There’s a term for it in the lingo of salesfolk, and she has that down. I mean *down*.

    I hope it’s clear that I’m glad of this, that I view the ability to sell as a good thing in a presidential candidate.

  188. 188.

    trollhattan

    @zhena gogolia:
    Agreed. When she entered the race I asked “why?” and since then, she’s only run the best campaign (among two dozen?) and honed her presentation and more importantly, established her stance on myriad issues. Her hammering corruption could eventually seep into the narrative. That would be nice.

    I better have that much goddamn energy when I’m 70, because I’m owed!

  189. 189.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @zhena gogolia: her improvement as a retail candidate are one of the reasons I’ve been feeling better about her, just as Biden’s (to be charitable) rustiness has me more concerned. His staff has put out some good responses to trump’s latest attacks and the criminality of them. HIs own… be more presidential… ask him… have been uninspiring.

  194. 194.

    trollhattan

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    Biden really had me scratching my head at that last…ten people talking thing. Sell-by date, it has passed and that’s a real issue, not some off-the-cuff quip. Same with that other old dude, although in a different fashion.

  199. 199.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @trollhattan: right, and I don’t doubt Bernie’s mental agility, to use the term that’s getting tossed around. I’m not even as certain as I was that trump would beat him, at least in the popular vote. But what a gift he would be to the RCCC and RSCC

  201. 201.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    Last month, while taking some Milky Way pics, I met a group of photographers also shooting where I was. I shared my IG with one of them(he does nice work). He posted a pic today taken from the hills above where I sometimes shoot. There’s a person with a light on out where I shoot and a car that looks like mine parked next to the highway(hard to tell for sure due to low resolution on IG).

  202. 202.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Elizabelle: I can’t post links, unfortunately. If you look on FB for the Mascoutah Police Department, there’s a piece posted 2 May 2017 about the commendations given the responding officers.

  205. 205.

    mrmoshpotato

    @JPL: And he’ll start sticking his wagging finger up people’s noses while shouting at them.

    “Got your nose!”

  208. 208.

    Mary G

    Julian Castro came to the Iowa Steak Fry with a mariachi band, Kamala a drumline. Julian went to Warren’s photo line and they hugged. I love a happy warrior.

    ETA: Also, too, lots of reporters and other people dragging Ken Vogel on Twitter.

  209. 209.

    Aleta

    29
    Schlemazel
    says:
    November 19, 2015 at 6:22 pm
    I do agree with JC on one thing – the commenters here are assholes. I caught some of the bullshit aimed at tommy & it was ridiculous, Those jerks should have been given a time out there was no excuse – he had every right to go off on them.

    I am always amazed at how quickly people can get all bent out of shape about changes here. Its not like Cole is making bank here and its not like we are paying to enjoy each others company. Relax and be grateful that we have this place instead of endlessly bitch about frigging comment numbers.
    Thanks to tommy I am sure he put in tons of effort.

    Thanks Schlemazel: “Relax and be grateful that we have this place.”

    Thanks Tommy. I hoped you’d be back.

  212. 212.

    NotMax

    @Aleta

    Gotta disagree. As I remember it there was constructive criticism being bandied about and the kablooeyness was instigated by Tommy’s “All of you – all of you– are internetting wrong” statements.

  217. 217.

    Mary G

    @Aleta: Thanks for that. Schemazel rocked.

    @NotMax: We remember it differently. It was only a few people, but high volume and a bit of competition to see who could be hardest on him. You weren’t one of them.

  220. 220.

    Ruckus

    @trollhattan:
    Two things. EW and I were born less than 3 weeks apart. So I’m 70 and while I’m not the energy bunny that I was even 10 yrs ago, I’ve still got some left. She has a lot more. I walk to work a mile each way and work all day in a machine shop. Part time but I still do. My mom worked till she was 85. Desk job part time but she worked. Maybe it’s in the genes.
    #2 I went and watched the Colbert segment, she is very good at taking the question and giving a far better and more extensive answer than the question asked. She’s the energizer bunny but far, far smarter. And that answer about corruption she gave, that resinated very well with the audience. She and I agree about the timeline and path we took to get here as well. I’m still worried a bit about her age – but that may be some projection on my part.
    I’d be ecstatic about voting for her, I just like KH a bit more, I like her reality, I like her experience and I like her age better. But it is an extremely close choice. I don’t think I’ve ever had that in all my years of voting.

  226. 226.

    trollhattan

    @Ruckus:

    But it is an extremely close choice. I don’t think I’ve ever had that in all my years of voting.

    Thinking, thinking, thinking on it I can’t come up with a prior comparison, either.

    Will also give some kudos to Beto for getting really aggressive on guns. Somebody needs to be dragging that into the daylight and he’s doing it well.

  227. 227.

    Gin & Tonic

    A day off the net and in the company of loved ones can do wonders.

    Anyway, thanks for this post, Adam. Seeing that bullshit from Vogel yesterday made me fucking livid, and I had to unplug. I’m glad you put all this in one place.

  237. 237.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Steeplejack: (Reply to your comment way downstairs…) I ended up getting a new drinking fountain for the girls, $18 on Amazon. The one I had was WiFi enabled and I may try for a repair later. Thanks for the suggestion, I was already looking at pump replacements.

  238. 238.

    Jay

    13/ I see no courage in DC—and little in media. I see activists, authors, researchers and citizen journalists working hard, and many Americans earnestly trying to educate themselves, but an increasingly large group in and out of journalism who act like this is all a kind of game.— Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) September 21, 2019

  239. 239.

    Ruckus

    @trollhattan:
    I’ll do a little Beto here.
    Yes he fucking is….
    And you are exactly right, somebody has to do it and strongly. That first step and all. Somebody had to say what he said and how he said it, to show that it isn’t a small thing, that it is important, that it is time for a change on guns in this country. I like that the only people seemingly to push back on his language are gun people. No one else seemed to be bothered by the word “fuck,” only those whose fetish is in question.

  241. 241.

    Noname

    @BRyan: I pied a frequent commenter on this site after that incident because I could not believe the vitriolic and cruel remarks they directed at Tommy. RIP

  243. 243.

    Aleta

    @NotMax: There was more to it than that. Long before Tommy offered help with the site, he was being ridiculed by just a few people. If he was conversing with people on a thread, they’d go to an adjacent thread and simultaneously.mock him. When he offered to work and started in, there were reasonable reactions against that, but also harassment seemingly for the enjoyment of it. He was sometimes good natured but increasingly not. Comments to him got meaner, and iirc he finally said something like (paraphrasing): he was surprised at such attacks, since a person like him with keys could look up someone’s IP address if he wanted to. That’s what I remember as the extent of the threat. Looking up an IP address is a serious violation here, bc John protects commenter privacy above all, so to even say he could if he wanted to was out of bounds. Tommy apologized more than once; not sure if he received any. John iirc invited him to keep commenting and most commenters were supportive. Tommy returned a few times but was finally driven off by intentional vague insinuations about him in RL (also a violation, but ignored). Different standards to make one person unwelcome still seem to me to go against the nature of John’s site.

  244. 244.

    hugely

    @Matt: why isn’t as simple as the fact that Vogel and others (editors owners) at TFNYFT have been compromised by Russians or Russian adjacent actors? Im no expert but journalism and journalists have been a vector for disinformation for a long time why not the NYT of today? Not all journalists but a few key ones probably have compromat hanging over their heads

  245. 245.

    chopper

    @trollhattan:

    his posts regarding himself and his history (of which there were many) had a strong undercurrent of not fitting in in the world. he tried to avoid it but it certainly came off as having a strong loneliness associated with it.

Comments are closed.