Trump goes off the hook at a “private” breakfast where someone was recording him and gave the recording to the LA Times:
WASHINGTON — President Trump expressed disgust Thursday morning with the explosive whistleblower complaint, slamming the intelligence officer and the White House aides who helped him or her as “almost a spy” and suggested it was treason.
Speaking at a private breakfast in New York, Trump described reporters as “scum” and raged at the Democrats’ new impeachment proceedings, which were spurred by the whistleblower’s complaint alleging that Trump tried to strong-arm Ukraine’s leader to interfere in the 2020 election.
[…] “I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” he continued. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”
The report came out last night and before noon the next day he’s picking the people who need killing.
The Moar You Know
I’d be disappointed if he did anything else.
Because that would mean somewhere along the line he’s picked up some impulse control, and I really don’t want that happening. The dumbfuck will hang himself, given some time.
ETA: I find it incredible he hasn’t learned something that any C-level officer knows or learns within their first year on the job – everything is being noted/diaried or recorded, and unless you’re in a room by yourself, there is someone in the room with you who is just waiting for the chance to fuck you over and ruin your life.
Kent
I’m watching CNN right now. Moments ago they had Maggie Haberman on talking about a speech Trump gave to employees this morning going on a tirade against traitors who are leaking and how we used to deal with spies differently back in the day.
We are definitely getting into Captain Queeg and the strawberries territory here.
zhena gogolia
We’ve come a long way since “47%,” haven’t we?
Jeffro
Of course an innocent man on a ‘perfect’ call would handle all of this by burying the evidence on a separate server, and then calling for the execution of the person who ratted him out.
Which is it, trumpov? If you’re innocent, have everyone testify and come out of this ‘FULLY EXONERATED!’, ready for a big ol’ landslide in 2020. If you’re guilty, then do something stupid like…calling for the execution of American officials who followed procedure and made the report lawfully.
The things this guy is going to do and say as he spirals down are going to absolutely blow 98% of Americans’ minds.
dmsilev
I dunno, bringing up the question of treason seems like a bit of a bad idea for him all things considered.
Also, that some high-dollar donor saw fit to send this recording to the LA Times is interesting.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
THE MESS BOYS ATE THE STRAWBERRIES
dmsilev
@Kent:
Nonsense. Trump would never be caught eating anything as vaguely healthy as canned strawberries.
Villago Delenda Est
That’s it.
Donald will reap what he has sown.
zhena gogolia
@Villago Delenda Est:
I find it interesting that the leaks are getting more frequent.
dmsilev
@Jeffro:
Fixed.
And I just this second got a fundraising email claiming that in North Carolina, “Our Republican opponent, Thom Tillis, is more vulnerable than ever. According to a new poll, his approval rating is a staggering 27% in North Carolina.”.
Spooky.
MattF
We may deduce that Trump is displeased.
Kay
Bottom of the barrel. At least Rudy admits he’s Trump’s lawyer. Barr is much, much worse than Guiliani and that’s really saying something.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@dmsilev:
It’s to be expected. Projection. Projection. It’s all about projection with those people.
Jeffro
@dmsilev: Fair point!
jl
@The Moar You Know: To be fair, Weld started this GOP jag on killing people a few days ago by stating, incorrectly, on national TV that Trump committed treason and that the only penalty for treason is DEATH(!!!!). Which the TV talking head apparently swallowed whole, and IIRC, started asking others on the panel if Trump should be executed for committing treason. Then the TV confab proceeded on the assumption that the legal process for treason was completely described in the Constitution. I was pretty sure that is not true, so I checked Wiki and found
Definition: In Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution, treason is specifically limited to levying war against the US, or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Conviction requires two witnesses or a confession in open court.[2]
Penalty: U.S. Code Title 18: Death,[8] or not less than 5 years’ imprisonment and not more than life imprisonment without the possibility of parole (minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death). Any person convicted of treason against the United States will permanently lose the right to ever hold or run for public office anywhere in any capacity within the United States.[9][10]
Note: my emphasis added in bold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States
Our national affairs corporate media are horrible. You usually watch and leave less informed that you were beforehand. Which is why I almost always watch little bits of it on youtube. I can’t take it straight up.
Mary G
The projection is strong with this one: Sleepy Joe Biden, he’s dumb as a rock.
Aleta
At yesterday’s UN appearance and ‘press conference’ he looked very very angry under the surface, to me.
TaMara (HFG)
The wheels are coming off:
The Thin Black Duke
Uh, Donny?
If you’re sitting at a poker table, and you don’t know who the sucker is, guess what?
It’s you.
jl
Listening to soundbites of some of the GOP diehards on the radio news this morning (I listen to local news radio for the traffic reports, OK?), seems to me that they are going to try gas lighting to the bitter end. I was reminded of the Monte Python sketch where a wife walks in on her husband (Cleese) in bed with another woman, and Cleese firmly but calmly denies there is any woman at all in the room while the woman calmly dresses and walks out.
But, sadly, can’t find it on youtube. Someone should dig it up with a link and publicize as the one and only GOP strategy at this stage of the affair.
cain
@Jeffro:
Isn’t this exactly what republicans said was bad about Hillary having her own email server? A good thing to ask these republicans what they think the difference is other than being in the wrong party? I feel like that we should keep responding to people using video clips from Republicans back at them.
Immanentize
@Aleta:
And that presser at the UN went poorly for him. He must be feeling like the walls are closing in on every side.
Oh, they pretty much are!
TaMara (HFG)
Kay
It could easily have worked. They could have coerced Ukraine into “investigating” Biden (which I wouldn’t blame Ukraine for- they need the help and they have a duty to their own country) and it would have played out exactly like the emails and Clinton. It was already happening when the whistleblower appeared.
We were one person away from a replay of 2016.
Jeffro
@TaMara (HFG): good good good!
I hope the dirty fucker strokes out on live TV
Baud
@dmsilev:
That was my thought.
dmsilev
@Kay: Ken Vogel, formerly of Politco and now at the NY Times, doesn’t come out of this looking very good. He was one of the people who was very heavily pushing the “corrupt Joe Biden etc.” narrative, even in the face of vast amounts of evidence suggesting that the real story was very very different.
Sasha
You thought Trump being Trump was the Trumpiest thing ever, just wait till the stress and desperation makes Trump Trump even more Trump than he’s ever Trumped before. There is no such thing as peak Trump.
Baud
@Kay:
It’s because we never came to terms with how we treated Hillary.
cain
@Kay:
This seems too close to the scooby ending, “and I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn’t for that meddling whistleblower!”
Kay
Or if Democrats hadn’t won the House. The headlines today would be “cloud over Joe Biden”.
The biggest thing I’ve learned from Trump’s Presidency is our “institutions” aren’t resilient at all. They’re really fragile. It’s fine! I can live with it, knowing that. I guess I would rather know than not know. You adjust, right? You don’t have any choice.
Baud
@dmsilev:
He wanted his shot at the brass ring at the NYT.
cain
@dmsilev:
He should be investigated.
patrick II
@jl:
It was Walter Matheau in A Guide for the Married Man
Baud
@Kay:
This is still undervalued.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Also, NYT is not our friend, despite their great recipe section and crossword puzzles. They exist to comfort the comfortable and tell us how Ds are doing everything wrong. Boycotting them is the only language they will understand.
[Individual 1] mistermix
@dmsilev: Nobody posted on it here, but the NYT is getting picked apart on Twitter over their interviews with “6 swing voters” who are mainly die-hard Trump supporters. Some of the folks they interviewed have appeared in Times stories over and over. With their vast resources that we’re supposed to support by subscribing, their army of reporters somehow always talk to the same MAGA hats when looking for “swing voters”.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Not by me. I am on your side in this debate.
schrodingers_cat
@[Individual 1] mistermix: Have you noticed they never go to rural diners in New England, ever.
Gin & Tonic
@Kay: The immediately former Prosecutor General of Ukraine, Yuriy Lutsenko (not Viktor Shokin, his predecessor, whom everybody wanted ousted) was quoted today as saying a) Hunter Biden did nothing wrong in Ukraine and b) the current US administration offered Ukraine no help in combatting corruption.
piratedan
back in the day, when Trump was fresh and new and we had MILLIONS of Americans who wanted a guy just like this, a candidate just like them running things because he was a political outsider who would change the rules in Washington.
Remember that, not only does this guy not give a shit how governing works, he’s mistaken that with RULING and thus we see what so many of us would suspect happen, some fascist narcissist in control, surrounding himself with people who believed that Americans need to RULED, not governed… as long as they were the ones doing the ruling.
Their absolute disdain for laws and even of how society functions (or doesn’t) makes me loathe them to the point of nausea… I truly hope that this is the end of their control of our lives and our tax dollars.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
LOL. Why must you make me choose, NYT???
Kay
@dmsilev:
I don’t think the NYTimes political coverage is credible or reliable.
I don’t know why that is and I don’t have to know. I can just look at the work and leave motive or incentives out of it completely. The work speaks for itself.
dmsilev
@[Individual 1] mistermix: LG&M had a post this morning about that debacle. Sure, a woman who has been to 23 Trump rallies is a “swing voter”.
Kent
@dmsilev: No, Captain Queeg went insane because someone else ate the strawberries.
Betty Cracker
@dmsilev: Reposting this from the downstairs thread:
Hahahahaha! I hope Vogel is tearing out fistfuls of hair.
Gelfling 545
@dmsilev: If he would like his own misdeeds handled in the old fashioned way, however, who are we to object?
Gin & Tonic
@dmsilev: He was also one of the people who was publicly slandering Alexandra Chalupa, the former DNC researcher who was reporting (accurately) on Manafort’s history and dealings in Ukraine.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I don’t subscribe FWIW, plus the recipe section is not as good since Bittman left.
joel hanes
@Jeffro:
I hope the dirty fucker strokes out on live TV
While I understand the sentiment, if the union is to be saved, we want Trump and his accomplices and enablers to be prosecuted and convicted as an encouragement to others. If Trump becomes incapacitated now, that process may fizzle.
Just so long as he doesn’t start a nuclear exchange, I want him engaged and fearful, because in the course of his increasingly unhinged lashing out, he will continue to betray himself and disclose more of what they’ve done.
The Moar You Know
I think that Trump and the Trump Party may be under the impression that this will be a few weeks inconvenience and then back to business.
Well, Trump anyway. There’s still Trump Party members who remember the Clinton impeachment. Can we drag this out a whole year? Oh yeah. Will we? Oh yeah. All the way to Election Day.
Gelfling 545
@MattF: One senses he is discontent.
Kent
@schrodingers_cat:
Much less BBQ joints or barber shops in inner city neighborhoods. Or cafes serving green chili stew in New Mexico. Or anywhere else in the fucking country where you aren’t guaranteed to find a critical mass of old ignorant white bigots.
Millard Filmore
@cain:
I do not recall anyone saying that it was on a PRIVATE server, only that it was on a different server for highly classified material. It might still be a server under government control.
jl
@patrick II: Thanks. Somebody in the political operative business needs to tweet this out, if that is technically possible, to illustrate the GOP’s approach to that matter of the Trumpster crime spree.
dmsilev
Speaking of the Times, they’ve gotten some information on who the whistleblower is. Despite Trump’s death threats against that person, they of course decided to publish anyway.
This seems irresponsible, at best.
Kay
I’m a partisan, anti-Trump Democrat so of course I’m angry that the public employees in the White House were doing this, but what amazes me is how none of the commentary touches on the PUBLIC interest in clean elections.
It’s always approached as whether it hurts or helps the candidates. There’s a larger interest than them. It’s us. WE have a right to an election that isn’t tampered with. We’re harmed. They’re taking something from us.
joel hanes
@dmsilev:
Seen elsewhere:
Ken Vogel had in his hands a possible Pulitzer story, but his [partisan] prior conviction that the Bidens must be dirty led him to completely mis-evaluate the meaning of the information he had, and to go all in on the wrong hand.
cain
@The Moar You Know:
We absolutely want to.. and we need to keep repeating the history as well. Keep talking about it endlessly. That’s what Republicans did to Hillary. Mentally tear them down, all of them. Make it the world’s greatest reality TV. Eagerly show up for the political shows so they can keep talking about it.
Kent
@The Moar You Know:
Only way for it NOT to drag out for months is if they open up the doors of the white house to Adam Schiff and give him unfettered access to every staffer and every document and record up to and including Trump’s taxes. Which isn’t ever going to happen. Every hesitation with every document request or subpoena just drags things out longer.
schrodingers_cat
@cain: Are you familiar with the meme of Palghat Iyers comparing themselves to Jews? And not just any Jewish people but Ashkenazi Jews? I happened on it two days ago, and told husband kitteh who is a Palghat Iyer, he was like WTF.
joel hanes
@Kent:
Waterloo/Cedar Falls, one of Iowa’s larger cities, has a substantial black population.
None of the cletus safaris has ever gone to a diner in W/CF.
jl
@[Individual 1] mistermix: The amazing counterintuitive experimental result that die hard and eternally committed Trump supporters still support Trump always fascinates our corporate news media.
Edit: Along with the assumption that everyone who voted for Trump are in that group. Support for Trump remains very high in voters who ID with the GOP because that party is shrinking to only include the die hards.
cain
@Kay:
That whole thing comes from 24 hour news which puts everything into a horse race mentality. It’s never about us or the country, it’s about the teams. It’s one of the worst things that has happened to the news. We are never educated on how it harms us as a country combined with poor civics in school, you get this mess.
Baud
Now the electoral college makes them president.
schrodingers_cat
@Kent: The only voters that matter to our media betters are white, Christian and above all Republican voters.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@schrodingers_cat:
@[Individual 1] mistermix:
Have reporters ever offered any justification for those Cletus safaris and not interviewing Clinton voters? Maybe reporters don’t see the point in interviewing them for two reasons: a)their minds haven’t changed and that’s not surprising, and b), Trump’s support and EC win was so narrow and any small defections from his base in the right places could spell doom for his re-election chances. Then again, the NYT has interviewed obvious Trump supporters multiple times as “swing voters” and the Guardian interviewed plenty of anti-Trump Iowans recently
Mike in NC
Donny “Fat Bastard” Trump — a notorious New York City mob boss — has instructed his henchmen to eliminate the stool pigeon who ratted on him. Film at 11.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I was going to say that. He is our Mir Jaffer (he betrayed the Nawab of Bengal to Robert Clive’s East India Company). Company made him the Nawab and proceeded to loot Bengal.
MCA1
@TaMara (HFG): Good thing this is not a person with fascist authoritarian tendencies, or a history of trial-ballooning breathtaking breaches of protocol and constitution raping. Else I might fear he’s actually thinking about declaring a temporary suspension Congress (or perhaps permanently outlawing it) and waiting for the spineless chimps in his party to let him get away with it.
The fact that that thought even crossed my mind is an astounding indictment of where we’re at as a nation right now.
schrodingers_cat
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: NYT never interviewed Obama voters either. Win or lose its always the damn R voters posing as “independents” in those pieces.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
The fact that Vogel came from Tiger Beat on the Potomac (Politico) totally explains why he thoroughly botched this.
The fact the FTFNYT hired him in the first place is all one needs to know about that paper and why it’s not worth subscribing to.
Kay
@cain:
If it were even to be included as AN interest. There’s Donald Trump, there’s Joe Biden, and then there’s Americans who vote for them. I would accept third place.
We’re just…missing. It happened with the Stacey Abrams coverage too. They didn’t just rob Abrams. They robbed every single one of her voters.
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
I have never heard of that. (and I am a Palghat Iyer – for the peanut gallery) Yeah, I’m WTF too. I found this and there was some interesting comments about the correlation. I had to educate myself on who Ashkenazi Jews were first.
Hitlesswonder
@Kay: I would like to know why the Times political coverage is so abysmal. Vogel selling this story as “Biden is corrupt” is so crazy in multiple ways that I feel like this isn’t accidental. It’s enough to make me believe some conspiracy theories. It’s not like the Times is simply not being liberal…even an unbiased paper should be running daily stories about Trump profiting from lobbyists staying at his properties. It’s corruption right in front of everyone eyes. Instead, Biden is in trouble. To borrow a phrase from Mitt Romney, it’s troubling.
dlwchico
We used to handle people like him differently back in ‘the old days’ also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acT_PSAZ7BQ
Gelfling 545
Since it appears that one of his fellow rich guys may have ratted him out, I’m wondering if they have reached the point at which they believe he is now so damaged he is of no further use so let’s move along to Pence. Or even move Pence along too & get some nice, wealth friendly, white guy appointed vp before Trump is removed.
Immanentize
@MCA1:
The thought of closing Congress crossed his mind because it is a power that pipsqueak Boris Johnson has and Trump WANTS IT!
Rand Careaga
@TaMara (HFG): It’s strange. The Republicans tell us that by taking impeachment to the formal inquiry stage, the Democrats are, mwah-hah-hah, walking into a trap, and assuring the short-fingered vulgarian’s return, trailing clouds of glory, to the White House for a second term.
It’s odd, then, that he doesn’t seem happier. Perhaps no one has told him what good news this is? They want to surprise him?
jl
@joel hanes: That is sort of like national affairs reporters who visit Central Valley California and invariably describe wherever they go as White, often with the word ‘lily’ attached, and describe it as if it were uniformly as conservative as Kansas. Obviously they never took a second to learn anything about the place.
And I remember when the Colin Kaepernick story was big, and when he got national attention, he was described as ‘a black quarterback’. That was the first time it occurred to me. I come from that area, and I don’t remember anyone talking about him in those terms. He was the local kid who made good. But then I don’t travel in the Trumpster quarters in the area.
I don’t know if it is ignorance and inability to do any research on anything, or subliminal prejudice, or what. But, I found it disrespectful and infuriating. Edit: maybe the national reporters instinctively headed to a diner full of very old white people to get ‘authentic’ local opinion.
schrodingers_cat
@cain: Light skinned and blue eyed pale Jewish people. The curious combination of self regard and victimhood among Bhakts is funny if it were not so dangerous for the rest of India.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@schrodingers_cat:
Good point. I’m not sure if this is a conscious agenda on the part of the reporters themselves, just them being craven careerists following orders from on high, a result of them being apart of and coming from a narrow WASPy microculture where they all attended the same elite universities, or some combination of the three, but they certainly act as if certain demographics don’t really matter and cater to what they consider to be “real America”
matt
I wonder if he’s actually had anyone whacked while president. I figure it’s pretty much a certainty.
Kay
@Hitlesswonder:
I feel like you can’t go into “why” though or it degenerates into guessing about their motives or personal lives or whatever, and they then seize on that and the work is forgotten.
Delving into the “whys” doesn’t do any good. They just dig in further. What does the public HAVE to know to operate in this environment? Who is reliable and credible and who is not. More than that? What motivates it? That’s the NYTimes problem, not mine.
Just the 4 corners is enough. The written record.
Dev Null
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m sure someone counts these things but I’m too lazy to look …
… how many interviews with panels of African-American or Hispanic voters? How many interviews with panels of West Coast voters? How many interviews with urban voters?
Contra dmsilev, I’m actually curious what the FTFVT tells itself to justify the focus on non-coastal rural Trumpalos, and why they insist on referring to these Trumpalos as ‘swing voters’. I mean, seriously, Salena Zito owns that franchise. Why is the FTFVT challenging her for it?
Call me naive (I’ll agree with you), but f’gosh sake … even if the focus is because “we never knew there were such outlandish insane people”, surely there’s a story in what Trump’s Admin is doing to African-Americans and Hispanics, amirite?
Their mono-focus just seems weird (to me).
Mike G
I can’t wait for all the fawning pieces on how “brave” various Republican senators are when they finally turn on Trump.
The corporate media stooges have already written these articles, they just need to paste in the names. There’s always an eager market for “Republicans aren’t as awful as they actually are” articles. John McCain based his whole career on it.
schrodingers_cat
@Mike G: Fucking Jowls of concern (Mark Shields) is still praising Rs for voting for civil rights legislation in the 60s.
jl
@Baud: ” Now the electoral college makes them president. ”
Well, back then, the electoral college was supposed by full of judicious independent people who would use their collective wisdom to choose the candidate who was best for the national welfare.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Right wingers aren’t the only people inflicted with false nostalgia.
Just One More Canuck
@Gelfling 545: “Your proposal is acceptable”
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
Bhakts describes my uncle to a T at the moment. He’s arguing with my younger uncle about Modi since he’s a big pro-Modi guy, and my uncle is not (actually most of the family is not). He’s been listening to some freakoid who claims Hinduism is in danger. His last thing my mother told me was that Bernie was anti-Hindu and he was never going to vote for Bernie. Crazy pants. My uncle should be focused on climate change if he believes Hinduism is in danger – nothing is going to kill more Hindus than that. I love my uncle, but it’s amazing what fears drive folks to right wing ideology.
Baud
@jl:
I would have had an easier path to the presidency in that system.
Kay
@Hitlesswonder:
Nate Silver did this thing after the 2016 election where he measured the Clinton coverage. That’s enough for me. I know what I need to know in one sentence. Four numbers.
The rest is like “internal affairs” in a private business as far as I’m concerned. For my purposes. Because they’re untouchable as far as “corruption” right? There’s no actual enforceable standard. So I can just do a credibility analysis with the work and leave it at that.
Sebastian
@Gin & Tonic:
I think we should stop asking questions repeatedly and start answering them. No more “why is this person doing XYZ” when it’s obvious that they are compromised.
Ken Vogel is a Russian agent, compromised or paid. His job is to insert propaganda into the mainstream.
Baud
@cain:
Now I’m conflicted.
jl
@Kay: Much of the straight reporting is very good and important, if you read the whole story. The rot starts at the top, with the editors, who write the headline and capsule summary (I think that is called the ‘lede’ in the biz, but I’m not sure).
I don’t know how much editorial work goes into messing up well reported stories. Do the editors re-arrange them to bury the significant parts down to the end in the back pages? I dunno,
PJ
@dmsilev: @Baud: @cain: As Dan Pfeiffer points out https://twitter.com/danpfeiffer/status/1177254722266288128, back in May, Vogel had the info to put together a Pulitzer-level scoop on Rudy and Don’s efforts to force Ukraine to manufacture “evidence” to show that Biden had worked to get the Ukrainian prosecutor Shokin fired to help his son Hunter, but he chose to ignore it, even though he knew the allegations were false.
What kind of journalist does that? (One working for the GOP and/or Putin.)
Sebastian
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Bullshit. Sorry to be so rude but we are all behaving like battered spouses, always looking for an excuse for the perpetrator.
Judge them by their actions: The NYT is compromised. Let’s hit them with the full power and might of the United States. have them scramble and defend themselves. Hang the traitors, let the rest learn a lesson for the ages.
Jeffro
@Sebastian: yup
It would cost chump change for Vlad to buy off a couple reporters at each major news outlet in addition to a Gabbard or two
schrodingers_cat
@cain: That describes my husband’s bhakt uncle to a T. I stay out of those family Whatsapp groups. They would have a collective fit if they read my Twitter account or the posts here.
LuciaMia
Hmmm, completely reverting to type: I.E. Paranoid dictator in his final days.
cain
@PJ:
The money must be really good if it is worth more than the prestige of a Pulitzer. He should be mocked for it.
jl
@Baud: “I would have had an easier path to the presidency in that system.”
Agreed, except Baud2020! could have led the electors to the stale beer, but could he have made them drink it? Still would have been Adams. Maybe Baud second, Trump in the rear.
Baud
@PJ:
Kay
I run into this with the juveniles I sometimes represent. Within their families and social group the behavior is acceptable so they genuinely think their INSANE “so what?” defense plan is a great idea. I say “no, it’s bad what you did and everyone will think it’s bad” :)
Except the juveniles get it, after you tell them.
Dev Null
@Kent:
I’ve tended to get my information from not-FTFVT sources for the past several years, and fer shore I haven’t read more than a couple of their Trumpalo thumb-suckers, but AFAIK the sociological literature has pegged
economic anxietyracial grievances as the wellspring of the Trump base.The FTFVT doesn’t usually mention that fact, do they? Or am I being unfair?
Sebastian
@PJ:
Precisely. Occam’s Razor, folks.
jl
@LuciaMia: ” I.E. Paranoid dictator in his final days.”
And early days as well. I think Trump sincerely believes that Deep State forces hid two sets of servers someplace out in the Ukrainian woods. One for HRC emails, another set hiding the truth about the Russian election interference hoax.
But makes no difference, Trump has be removed from office, or rendered impotent, for the safety of the planet.
PJ
@Baud: Yep. He’s been at this a while.
Sebastian
@Jeffro:
You know, people behave as if this hasn’t happened since 1945. We KNOW that the Russians did this for decades and somehow they suddenly stopped?
One thing that doesn’t get discussed at all is how the NYT, who suffered from massive ad revenue loss like everyone else, survived financially. We know Facebook received massive investments out of Russia’s oligarch orbit. What about the NYT? Who actually owns it or has a significant stake in it?
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
Our whatsapp groups are surprisingly politics free. Only my uncle brings it up at times, and we all keep mum because to say something otherwise would trigger the reflexive shit that happens. Even my _grandmother_, who is basically I call “church lady”and is deeply religious and is a follower of Hindu norms doesn’t believe Hinduism is in danger and is not a fan of Modi. To believe that Hinduism is in danger now, after having survived over a millennia of invasions from Muslims and Christians just seems nuts. Hell, it seems to me that with Modi and RSS, Hinduism will destroy itself from the inside – politicizing religion is what got us bullshit idea from Evangelicals who believe Trump is blessed by God to run this country or shit going down in Israel, and Egypt. Just stop.
MoCA Ace
I have been doing something dangerous… Thinking. I keep reading about the Senate finally turning on the deranged circus peanut, or his cabinet 25th amendmenting him. The authors theorize that they will do it to save their own reputations, or when the pols show they will lose if they stick with him. Not going to happen!
The GOP will not cut the shitgibbon loose for fear the “base” will devour them alive (or use another suitable punishment reserved for traitors… like we used to do). They cannot dump him until another acceptable demagogue arises from the ooze… the “true messiah”. Only when the base has a suitable avatar for their rage and resentment will they turn on Trump. Only then will the scales fall from their eyes. Only then will they will see how the orange autocrat has not caused nearly enough suffering to the browns and the gays and everyone else who is not them.
Steven Miller has the right policy preferences and the willingness, if not the competency to implement them. Thankfully he is so repellent that even Trump keeps him locked in the White House basement. So far I don’t see any of the other proto-trumps who can rally the 27%.
WaterGirl
@The Thin Black Duke: Good to see you here! Or maybe you have been commenting and we are never on the same threads?
Patricia Kayden
So it’s a recording? Wow. That’s good because now he can’t even deny it. Straight up thug. No wonder he loves dictators who can dispose of their detractors.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Sebastian:
Probably right. I would be interested in looking into the financial backgrounds of some of the worst offenders at the NYT as well as the NYT itself
smintheus
@Kay: Yes. And that fucker Maguire had the gall to assert this morning that the whistleblower’s complaint was not about the integrity of our election.
Dev Null
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Hmm. Bill Clinton, “not one of us”. Al Gore, “invented the internet”. John Kerry, “windsurfing”. Obama’s tan suit. HRC’s emails.
Now Biden? Seriously, Joe Biden?!? Yeah, OK, you could paint a picture of Ol’ Joe as a serial fabulist …
… same as Dubya.
But serial fabulation doesn’t seem to be the issue.
Sometimes I think there’s an underlying pattern in the FTFVT political coverage….
… but damn, I can’t figure out what it is.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
I was watching when that slimy, smarmy little creep went on his tear about how he was going to track down the corruption of Joe Biden the other night (when was that? a week ago? or ten years, it seems?). I wanted to jump through my tv and punch his lights out. And I’m not even planning to vote for Biden unless there is no one else left.
Baud
@Patricia Kayden:
What’s a recording?
schrodingers_cat
@cain: My MIL is like your grandma, not taken in by Modi at all.
Kay
If I had to guess I would guess the NYTimes problem is not ideological but instead business- financial decisions. The reporters are not just reporters- they’re also free agents who are conducting multi-faceted media careers, including writing books and selling television shows. They have a conflict.
The rules about conflicts of interest are a recognition that people are flawed and they often act in ways that are self-interested and because they (we) are mere mortals we’re not in a position to judge that ourselves, so need a rule. It’s a kind of humility- an admission of the obvious. It doesn’t mean they’re bad, it means they’re flawed like everyone else. The only “sin” is not admitting it and planning for it. “Markets” won’t take care of it. There’s no market mechanism for it, hence, rules.
JPL
The NYTimes is saying the whistle blower is a CIA analyst that was in the White House with extensive knowledge about Ukraine.
So today Ukraine clears Hunter Biden and trump has a hissy fit.
schrodingers_cat
@KremlinTimes is trying to out the whistle blower.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: I think the owners of NYT have the same problem as T, they are in debt to the Russian mafia over real estate deals. Is anybody watching the watchers.
ETA: I have no proof, I am speculating based on their actions.
Gravenstone
Secret recordings like this that then see the light of day are just going to ramp his sense of paranoia up to 12. This is not likely to end well for someone.
Kay
@JPL:
The Deep State! The Trumpsters will go bananas. They were beyond anyone’s reach anyway.
germy
kindness
What’s really sad is that people are going to die before Trump gets booted from office. Some Trump nut(s) will go there.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
One of the mildly depressing things about our current scandals are how it’s all so fucking petty and personal. I watched the Iran Contra hearings. Say what you will about those liars and crooks, at least they had some Big Idea they were supposedly working toward. This is street crime committed by fancy people.
patrick II
@jl:
If you read the first comments, it was posted by a right-winger who claimed that’s how Obama/Biden operated. Remarakbly frustrating. It would have to be reposted with a better intro.
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: That bothered me a lot and there is enough information now that trump will out him.
r€nato
Once the informant is identified, they will presumably be wise enough to take whatever measures one would take if one knew Putin was out to assassinate them. Trump will all but order his cult to execute this person before this is all over.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: I don’t know whether that is necessarily better, Modi and his minions want to bring about a Hindu restoration of two thousand years ago. They are cultish and crazy and the damage they are doing to the fragile harmony in a diverse country like India by opening the fissures of language, religion and caste are going to be far more difficult to overcome than the havoc T and his gang are creating.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
This Times of India piece on the Ukraine scandal and impeachment puts our Bothsides media to shame
schrodingers_cat
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Rajghata is terrible and has always been. TOI is the Indian NYT.
Another Indian
@cain:
There is the Syrian Christians of South India, who are of Jewish heritage. (Syrian comes from Syrian/Syriac Aramaic language, not the country Syria) The Aramaic dialect is their religious language ( like Latin is used by Catholics), and its still taught in Kerala in seminaries and is an elective language offered in Kerala universities. (The only other place in the world where the language is in use is a corner of Iraq. The Syrian Christians follow a lot of Jewish customs, including the passover meal.
p.a.
1) (h/t driftglass): the GOP paradox: their cultivation of the pig people has turned, and they are now captives of their creation, locked in a death embrace with them and trump.
2) MUST string this Ukraine chain around Pence’s neck also. (Too optimistic?- a successful Ukraine investigation blows open the Russia link also? A fella can hope…)
Dev Null
@Sebastian: One of my in-the-tank-for-the-GOP now-rich high-school buds told me many years ago that he read the NYT rather than blogs because “the NYT has editors”.
Funny, that.
If you suppose that Vlad – or perhaps the Kochs or Sheldon Adelson – bought Ken Vogel, how high do you think the rot reaches? Someone at the FTFVT had to tender Vogel an offer of employment …
Vogel had a track record, after all.
Also too, if it’s Vlad, what explains the FTFVT animus against Bill Clinton and Gore and Kerry during those elections? Vlad wasn’t exactly high snake on the Russian snake ball most of that time, IIRC.
wrt financing of the FTFVT, not my area, but I recall reading that Mexico’s Carlos Slim held the largest share of NYT stock for years. Sold out before the 2016 election, IIRC, but I probably don’t RC.
jl
@JPL: “So today Ukraine clears Hunter Biden and trump has a hissy fit.”
Ukraine already ‘cleared’ Hunter Biden and debunked smears against Joe Biden working in his own interest, as have other organizations who have an arm’s length view. Did they ‘clear’ the Bidens again?
That is not saying Hunter Biden’s role in Ukraine was perfect. But the Trumpster charges are fabricated smears with not relationship to the truth. I read someplace today that the GOP is going after Hunter Biden on a paternity suite in some state to try to work up another fake scandal that can be use to smear Joe Biden. That is good and bad news. The good news is that no one outside the Trumpster base will care a rat’s ass about it, and second, the GOP may be sensing that the Ukraine gambit will fail so they have to find something else. The bad news is that GOP has decided that Hunter Biden will be the wastrel family embarrassment (most families have one) who can used to smear Joe Biden, so this won’t stop. We can hope each new try is even more ridiculous than the last. And then, when Warren is the nominee, completely irrelevant. Trump thinks he can defeat Warren by calling her names.
WaterGirl
@joel hanes: It would be a shame if that ended up haunting him until the end of his days.
cain
Funny how the NYT partially identifies the whistler blower around the same time Trump says he wants to kill spies/leakers. I think we know why the NYT wants to identify the analyst – so that they can do the same to him that they plan to do with Biden.
jl
@patrick II: Oh, thanks for the info. I think most voters, including Trump ’16 voters who can be reformed, would see an immediate parallel to the GOP’s reaction to the Trump Ukrainian Biden smear.
And as for other mysteries of the antics of various Trumspter/GOP flunkies over last year mentioned by commenters: important to remember that, at least at the beginning, trying to force Ukraine into coughing up something to justify pardoning Manafort was just as important as making up some smear on Bidens.
rikyrah
@dmsilev:
SO glad he was busted…the little weasel
rikyrah
@cain:
LOL
Dev Null
@schrodingers_cat: er …
Mexican billionaire Invests in Times Company, and
How Trump strengthened the NYT and grew a Mexican billionaire’s fortune
Seems Slim was still invested in the NYT after 2016, so that part I misremembered.
Miss Bianca
@Kay:
Man, when you find yourself nostalgic for the days of Iran-Contra, you *know* shit is fucked up and bullshit.
Dev Null
@Kay:
Someone in a comment thread last night (don’t remember whether here or LG&M) posted a twitter “name this scandal” contest. Best entries:
Moron Contra
Ukrainium One
Gin & Tonic
@jl: Yes. Yuriy Lutsenko, former Prosecutor General, was quoted today as saying Hunter Biden did nothing wrong in Ukraine.
Burnspbesq
@Sebastian:
I suppose it would be way too much to ask for you to come up with a single shred of actual evidence to support your allegations against Mr. Vogel.
Fact-free shit like your post is deeply counter-productive.
Villago Delenda Est
@zhena gogolia: Donald’s loyalty to his staff is being paid back in spades by the staff.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Are they REALLY fragile?
Or, are they fragile because their main focus is to protect White Supremacy?
I honestly, without any hesitation, don’t believe that ANY of this would be happening with 44 or Hillary.
All those ‘ institutions’, wouldn’t have had any issue whatsoever dealing with 44 or Hillary.
NO fragility would be shown.
zzyzx
@jl:
I don’t understand the reasoning that goes, “Well Biden’s son did something stupid, therefore I should vote for Trump.” There are so many gaps there that it’s just alien to me.
rikyrah
@Baud:
Totally is. Folks barely realize that they would have rolled out their cuts for Social Security, Medicare and the decimation of Medicaid with this year’s budget. …because of ‘ deficit spending’….who will think of the deficit….
Duane
@dmsilev: The FNYT lost their collective mind. After that fraudlent election put Trumpov, the Russian stooge in office, they thought it a good time to jump on the bandwagon.
For what? Access, the brass ring? Should’ve considered their reputation, careers, becoming a laughingstock. Trumpov the human time bomb is about to explode and blow up the FNYT and the Republican party.
Dev Null
@Burnspbesq: Yeah, my reaction to “Occam’s Razor” is along the lines of “that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.”
rikyrah
@schrodingers_cat:
Or Rural Black Churches ANYWHERE in the South. You wouldn’t think that anybody Black lives in rural America.
Hell, they refuse to go to an Urban Black Church either.
Wrong kinds of ‘ religious’ voters.
Gravenstone
@Gin & Tonic:
Fomenting corruption, on the other hand …
schrodingers_cat
@Another Indian: According to the author who made the comparison that Palghat Iyers are like Jewish people, he said that because they are supposedly persecuted by both Malyalees and other non-Brahmin Tamils.
For non-Indian people. Palghat is a region in Kerala ( where people speak Malyalam). Palghat Iyers are Tamil Brahmins who have lived in Kerala for generations.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: They never interview any naturalized citizens either.
MCA1
@Burnspbesq: I’m not a fan of this line about “where’s your evidence?” I mean, if you’re asking it of someone with subpoena power, or someone running an investigative journalism piece that seems ill-supported, sure. But we’re on an internet message board here. None of us are investigators working in an official gov’tal capacity.
I think the point you’re trying to make is “That’s a pretty explosive and damning accusation. Occam’s Razor would suggest a more innocent explanation, like that Vogel is a gullible dumb fuck and/or a Republican who’s afraid to admit it to himself and/or the rest of the world. So I’m not sure why you’d ratchet up the hysteria here ’cause it’s kinda dangerous.” But demanding evidence from someone who is in no position to provide evidence, when we’re not in a court of law, is empty. The poster can’t provide any and so on the terms you’ve set you can’t possibly lose the debate.
I’m a little hair trigger on this recently, perhaps, because it seems to be a common rwnj response on the Ukraine thing and other matters. It’s being used as a dodge.
Dev Null
@rikyrah:
Not to defend the FTFVT, but that’s actually common across the board. e.g. I talk about fundie evangelicals – meaning conservative fundie white evangelicals – even though I grew up in an area with a lot of black evangelicals. And even though I know that not all (white or otherwise) evangelicals are conservative.
A Ghost To Most
Rudy
Sebastian
@Burnspbesq:
If it walks like a duck …
Seriously though, we are supposed to dismiss open ratfucking and cling to increasingly more desperate explanations of innocence. That’s what brought us into this whole situation.
You know, American hubris and exceptionalism is responsible to believe we are invincible and infallible, that we simply cannot be infiltrated because of our awesomeness. Reality is that America is being played and has been played for decades.
All I see is constant headscratching and wondering “why oh why is this person CONSTANTLY doing this weird thing?”
BECAUSE THEY WORK FOR THE ENEMY! That’s why!
But admitting that requires an understanding that we are not special and infallible but a country and society as flawed and vulnerable like any other. We have destabilized countries since the 19th century and our spell as superpower made us believe that we as the top dog, the big bully on the block, cannot be destabilized.
The truth is: we have been.
Dev Null
@MCA1:
I get your point, but:
1) Sebastian repeated the point over multiple comments, ratcheting up the intensity in each comment;
2) Sebastian claimed ownership of the phrase “Occam’s Razor”, which most certainly does not apply to his accusations.
3) other commenters were jumping in to agree with Sebastian.
Speaking only for myself, burnspbesq’s pin-in-the-balloon hardly seems unfair.
evinfuilt
@Kent: I’m pretty sure they only interview people who still get physical copies of the Times delivered to them. Which explains why it’s old white people.
cckids
@Jeffro:
No. NO NO NO. As much as I want this jackass gone, the minute he croaks in office; 1) The conspiracy nuts will go WILD, and 2) The media will forget and dismiss all his transgressions and elevate him to the status of any previous president. Look how they treated Nixon when he went.
No. I want him either impeached and thrown out, or (preferably at this point) defeated so so utterly in a fair election that his name will be equated with losing for eternity.
rikyrah
@Kay:
You pointed this out to us in such clarity.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: FWIW the evangelical church in my neck of the woods is Korean. They even have Korean signs out front.
Dev Null
@Sebastian: Well, two points.
First, you wrote this:
You might be right. Or Vogel might be a Koch agent. Or Vogel might be simply a Republican reporter on the FTFVT with a bad case of confirmation bias.
If you have compelling evidence that Vogel is a Russian agent – and IANAL, but is Vogel a public figure, legally speaking? – then why not provide your evidence?
Second, if you have no evidence to support your claims, why not gather some evidence before declaring that Occam’s Razor dictates an answer? especially since your preferred answer dangles a lot of threads.
Rob
I just can’t even
keep up
wrap my head around the thought processes expressed in the tape
stay away from news coverage today
(nb: not a poll/multiple choice test)
Bluegirlfromwyo
@schrodingers_cat: I live in a suburban area that voted for Obama and flipped the state from red to blue. You’d think the NYT and their ilk might have wanted to get to know those of us who elected the first African-American president. But no, none of that.
Villago Delenda Est
@Burnspbesq: Vogel is dogshit. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.
Mary G
https://twitter.com/eyokley/status/1177312117948657664?s=19
Morning Consult poll shows support for impeachment rose 13% since the weekend.
Dev Null
@Villago Delenda Est:
burnspbesq can speak for himself, and will should he care.
Speaking only for me, I don’t have a problem with your characterization of Vogel.
But there’s a substantive distinction between calling Vogel “dogshit” and calling Vogel “a Russian agent”.
chopper
@schrodingers_cat:
ashkenazim are not really known for being blue eyed. (i say this as a blue-eyed jew, lol).
schrodingers_cat
@chopper: But are they the paler branch of the Jewish diaspora, comparatively speaking? In India people have a fascination for lighter skin. So that was my hypothesis as to why this person picked that branch.
Dmbeaster
@PJ: There is a prevalent belief amongst the smarmy that the story to write is the counter-intuitive and counter-factual, and I think Vogel was working on that skewed basis. He was attracted to the narrative for this reason, and saw profit in peddling that story. Warping facts to fit a narrative is a long term journalistic sin, and a feature of the NYT re the Clintons. I think Vogel saw more upside in that (using the NYT’s Clinton tactic on a new target, Biden), than yet another “boring” story about Trump’s corruption.
schrodingers_cat
@chopper: Or perhaps the most persecuted? I am not familiar with all the specifics of Jewish history.
The Thin Black Duke
@WaterGirl: Thanks, Watergirl. Just busy is all, but I do miss you guys.
MCA1
@Mary G: That is light speed in this age of polarization and confirmation bias, no? That’s 13 percent in 3 DAYS, without including the effects of today’s double barrel of the Maguire hearing and Mango Mussolini suggesting the whistleblower and their sources should be hanged. I mean, if things keep accelerating badly for Dotard we’re going to get to the natural 73% cap on impeachment support in two weeks*. At which point he’ll start losing GOP Congresscritters left and right, and we can turn our focus to Pence.
* I could actually see a scenario in which even some Crazification Factor people will smell the loser stink and want to move on, or will know it’s a lost cause and they may as well get a martyr out of it, or whatever thought process within the Crazification Quartile might take hold.
JustRuss
@joel hanes:
Fortunately for Vogel he works for FTFNYT, so the consequences for this colossal fuck-up will be: nothing.
pluky
@schrodingers_cat: The Jewish communities of the post second temple diaspora are typically divided into three groups:
Ashkenazim — Northern and Eastern European with Yiddish as a common language.
Sephardim — Iberian speakers of Ladino. While they flourished under the Umayyad caliphs of Cordoba, the situation deteriorated, first with the Almohad and Almoravid imposition of stricter dhimmi status, then the forced conversions and expulsions after the Reconquista.
Mizrahim — Middle Eastern Jews — Variously speakers of Arabic, Turkish, Farsi, or Syriac. Many post expulsion Sephardim settled in Mizrahi communities of the Ottoman Empire.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews
sgrAstar
@zhena gogolia: you guys are just so funny. Captain Queeg indeed. Your dark humor is having a really salutary effect on my trump-induced depression. Now, where *are* those strawberries….
J R in WV
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Talking about the NY Times and other large news outlets.
They have 2 or 3 times as much news written every day as they will run in their publication. This means pretty soon a reporter learns what his editor wants to print, or they will move on to another “opportunity” elsewhere. And this is why the NY Times consistently prints news that makes fascists look like the best choice to run things. Someone in charge at the NY Times is a Nazi.
They loved Mr. Hitler until the moment war was declared. They loved Mr Stalin til the day he died.
J R in WV
@Sebastian:
A relatively little known Mexican billionaire named Carlos Slim owns 50% of the NY Times. In theory he has no influence on the editorial side. Hehehe.