Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“They all knew.”

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Also, are you sure you want people to rate your comments?

Let me file that under fuck it.

We know you aren’t a Democrat but since you seem confused let me help you.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

Oppose, oppose, oppose. do not congratulate. this is not business as usual.

A tremendous foreign policy asset… to all of our adversaries.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

They don’t have outfits that big. nor codpieces that small.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

“But what about the lurkers?”

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

To the privileged, equality seems like oppression.

Reality always gets a vote in the end.

The “burn-it-down” people are good with that until they become part of the kindling.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

The words do not have to be perfect.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

You are here: Home / Politics / domestic terrorists / Tuesday Morning Open Thread: No Lie Told, Madame Secretary

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: No Lie Told, Madame Secretary

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Meanwhile, the manly-men MAGAts are cheering for their Dear Leader’s threat…

It’s all fun’n’games until they start setting Black churches on fire…

Reader Interactions

186Comments

  3. 3.

    Nicole

    The past few days leave me wondering how, years from now, I’ll handle family and friends who will lie and claim they voted for Hillary in 2016.

  5. 5.

    JR

    Now is a good time for the Democrats to coalesce around a strategy for the inevitable public hearings. They also probably should work on a coherent message for media appearances, etc. Eventually the Trump lackeys are going to stop shooting them selves in the dick.

  6. 6.

    Richard Guhl

    The thugs of the gun god death cult have clearly revealed that all their declarations of needing guns to defend freedom and oppose tyranny are flat out lies. They do not care one whit about tyranny. In fact, they have loudly announced that they will be quite happy with a tyranny that gives them what they want.
    Oath Keepers is quite the name for a group bent on a fascist state.

  7. 7.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @JR:

    Eventually the Trump lackeys are going to stop shooting them selves in the dick.

    They’ve been shooting themselves in the dick for 3 years now. Why would they stop?

  10. 10.

    trnc

    You know what is going to piss Trump off the most?

    The Whistleblower will be named Time Person of The Year.

    Maybe the next Mar-a-Grifto spy can sneak that in and replace the fake DT Man of the Year cover with it.

  11. 11.

    OzarkHillbilly

    MOSCOW, Sept 30 (Reuters) – The Kremlin said on Monday that Washington would need Russian consent to publish transcripts of phone calls between U.S. President Donald Trump and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin.

    I guess that answers the question of who’s the boss/wears the pants/is on top.

  16. 16.

    OzarkHillbilly

    The extraordinary reactions of certain men to Greta Thunberg, which have nothing to do with her urgent and necessary message on the climate emergency, tells you exactly what happens when a young woman simply refuses to be sexualised. It makes them deeply uncomfortable.

    Thunberg’s manner may be associated with her Asperger’s, but her defiance unsettles them. Old, male intellectuals in France have been farting on because she is not “sexy” enough. Yes, really. The 84-year-old philosopher Bernard Pivot, the president of the Académie Goncourt, a French literary society, talked of the sexy Swedish girls of his youth. Greta does not match up, apparently. Michel Onfray, 60, another philosopher, said she has the age and body of a cyborg. Pascal Bruckner, 70, said her face was “scary” and that she flaunts her autism. Trump, as we know, has mocked her.

    She is a 16-year-old, and these are grown men. And they are terrified. Wonderful. Who knew you could shake the patriarchy simply by refusing to smile for it, dress for it or demur to it? A refusal to acquiesce to the male gaze has these dinosaurs squirming.

    Greta, you teach us about more than one kind of climate. Thank you.

  17. 17.

    WereBear

    @Nicole: The past few days leave me wondering how, years from now, I’ll handle family and friends who will lie and claim they voted for Hillary in 2016.

    I am using a case-by-case basis. Such claims will run the risk of a serious “you asshole” look that lets them know I know.

  20. 20.

    trnc

    @JR:

    Eventually the Trump lackeys are going to stop shooting them selves in the dick.

    It’s certainly better to strategize as if Krool And The Gang will figure out a smarter way to defend their criminal activities (eg, taking Half Ass Nosferatu off the talk show circuit), but it’s hard to imagine they’re going to suddenly become competent or attract competent people at this point.

  23. 23.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: It’s a dirty job but somebody has to say it. ;-) Looking for 91 again today, hopefully the humidity will remain low. Wednesday night/Thursday morn Autumn arrives for real (please oh please) with highs in the 70’s and lows in the 40s.

  24. 24.

    satby

    Newly neutered “Buddy” cat is very restive in his isolation bathroom. He’s eating well and doesn’t seen uncomfortable, so as soon as I can be sure he’ll use the litter box and not just any handy corner I’ll let him out to explore the house while the other cats are still in “their” room. He wants to be outside, but those days are over for him.
    Did I already mention he’s from a previous litter that the momma cat I trapped last year had? And the tiny feral I captured is also probably a grandkitten. One lax cat owner not spaying and neutering created most of the roaming cat problem here.

  25. 25.

    germy

    thecut.com/2019/09/another-woman-says-al-franken-groped-her.html

    When she saw the first news alert about Franken, the woman said, she burst into tears. “I really considered adding my voice,” she said. But years after the Franken incident, she had reported unwelcome attention from her boss at work and ended up leaving the job after feeling ostracized.

    She dreams of being a Cabinet secretary in a future Democratic administration, she said, and “knowing the vetting process, I know that anything can be used as a flag to say, ‘Not this person.’ The idea that I would not get a job and would always wonder: Was it the article where I was the one who was raising my hand against a powerful man?”

  26. 26.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: same weather here just a couple degrees less. So looking forward to normal fall temperatures.
    But more rain is predicted along with the cooler air. Which goes straight into the already high river since the ground is mostly sand here. Still, two dry days will let most of the water flow into Lake Michigan and away from here, so we’ll take them.

  27. 27.

    debbie

    I came here late last night to catch up, but couldn’t bear just how much shit had happened in just a few hours. But then I see this up top:

    The Whistleblower will be named Time Person of The Year.

    And am immediately heartened. Please, let it be so!

  28. 28.

    debbie

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    They’ve closed schools here because of the heat. They got funding to convert them all to AC, but apparently it’s not something to be done with any sense of urgency.

  29. 29.

    Betty Cracker

    @JR: Seems like the Dems have coalesced around a simple message: that it’s an abuse of power for a president to pressure foreign governments to dig up dirt on political opponents.

  31. 31.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Baud: I find the Chris Rock “What do you want, a cookie?” line works in many situations.

    And I say this as a guy who is not averse to hoping for a cookie myself sometimes.

  32. 32.

    Sally

    @Betty Cracker: I wish they would correct their message to it being an abuse of power to pressure a foreign government to fabricate dirt on a political opponent.

  33. 33.

    Freemark

    @germy: I generally believe women, but I take any accusation like this with Franken with a huge grain of salt. At least some of his other accusers were lying or severely exaggerating. One claimed he was grabbing her breast while the photograph was being taken which, twhen the photo was found, proved to be untrue. The other did an entire article in the WP where she said it was the attitude with which he touched her waist in the 2 second photo op. And if you read the article it is obvious what sge says can’t be trusted to not be severe exaggeration. In the previous accusations nothing was as obvious groping as this would be. If you take photos with tens of thousands of people a certain percantage will mis-remember what actually happened or mix it up with other trauma by suggestion. Gropers are almost always continuously gropey. They don’t just do it occasionally which is what we see here.

  40. 40.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @germy: Thanks for that follow up. He was 75. There’s no mention of deaths or injuries in the other boat so I will assume they escaped unharmed.

    I did wonder why the hell someone would be moving that fast in a boat that size on a relatively narrow river.

  41. 41.

    Mr. Mack

    De-lurking to say that today I finally get my feeding tube removed. Haven’t used it for over two weeks. I’m nervous because it saved my life, it served me well and I am grateful we have that kind of medical know how. I’ve been working (in my head) on a post about a cancerous lump on the whole country, but instead I plan to spend the rest of my day not eating anything (nothing but clear liquids for twelve hours) and contemplating what a Baud! administration would look like.

  43. 43.

    JPL

    @Nicole: Some will blame it on Obama. 68% of republicans believe that just because you asked a foreign government to interfere in an election, it’s not impeachable.

  45. 45.

    Betty Cracker

    @Bobby Thomson & @germy & @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Fascinating follow up story — thanks for the links! The guy driving the boat recklessly told the cops he was sitting down while steering, so he didn’t see the other boat — idiotic. Everyone escaped the crash unharmed; the death of bad boat pilot was apparently unrelated to the crash. It’s a miracle the folks on the anchored vessel weren’t injured; they barely got off the boat before the collision, so I worried their own boat would hit them in the water. Glad they escaped unharmed.

    ETA: There;s a little waterfront tiki bar and restaurant my husband and I used to frequent when we lived south of Tampa that got hit by a speeding boat. The boat ran up onto the beach, traveled for considerable yards and crashed right through a wall. After they repaired the damages, the restaurant owners put up lots of photos of the crash as decorations.

  46. 46.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Lawfare: Giuliani Cannot Rely on Attorney-Client Privilege to Avoid Congressional Testimony

    At the outset, it is unclear that much of the information of interest to Congress regarding Giuliani’s conduct would even potentially be subject to the attorney-client privilege. The privilege exists to protect the confidential communication between a client and an attorney made for the purpose of obtaining legal advice. It does not protect, for instance, communications your attorney may have had with, say, foreign government officials—or, for that matter, with U.S. government officials.

    And, of course, the privilege wouldn’t reach communications where Giuliani was not acting in his capacity as a lawyer providing legal advice. Yet Giuliani himself just told The Atlantic regarding his work in Ukraine, “I’m not acting as a lawyer. I’m acting as someone who has devoted most of his life to straightening out government.” And the conduct at issue—pushing arguments about potential corruption to foreign officials—does not appear to involve providing confidential legal advice. It is not even clear that Giuliani’s conduct constitutes legal work performed in his capacity as Trump’s attorney, even if it were charitably viewed as something other than political campaign work.

    Nor does the course of dealing, so far as it is presently known, suggest that Trump was conveying confidences to Giuliani for the purpose of receiving legal advice from him, rather than directing him to undertake other (nonlegal) activities on the president’s behalf. Directives of this sort, of course, would not be privileged. Indeed, it is not clear what legal advice the president would have needed regarding corruption in Ukraine, at least prior to recent developments. So reasonable minds might question whether any of the communications between the president and Giuliani are protected by the privilege, much less information regarding Giuliani’s other conduct and interactions with third parties.

    But even positing for the sake of argument that there may be some communications on the Ukraine issues that might potentially be subject to the privilege, those residual “privileged” communications would have little protection against compelled congressional testimony.

    First, it is Congress’s long-standing position that the attorney-client privilege does not afford protection against compelled congressional testimony. Although Congress may consider claims of attorney-client privilege at its discretion, it does not recognize the common law privilege as a bar to compelled disclosure. Rather, it has consistently taken the position that it can insist that privileged communications be disclosed. Consistent with this position, a committee that calls Giuliani for testimony can simply direct him to answer if he were to attempt to assert attorney-client privilege, and can hold him in contempt if he does not comply.

    More at the link. I was completely unaware of that last part, about Congress not recognizing A-C privilege. I wonder about the limits and if there is any case law surrounding it. It also appears that Executive privilege would not cover Giuliani’s Ukraine work because he has been acting as trump’s private attorney and EP is for govt work.

    Safe to say things are about to get interesting.

  49. 49.

    Amir Khalid

    @Mr. Mack:

    contemplating what a Baud! administration would look like.

    This is a subject that the mainstream political media has for some reason has never given any thought to. If you come up with anything that your fellow jackals will find intriguing, do share with us.

  53. 53.

    Elizabelle

    @germy: From your link re the boat crash:

    Authorities say he had been piloting a fishing boat that rammed another vessel on the Columbia River. The three people aboard the other boat jumped into the river just before impact.

    Thank dog the three fishermen we saw were able to swim and/or survive in the water.

    The boat’s driver was 75. Wonder if it was a medical issue.

  58. 58.

    germy

    In 2006, a Senate aide worked a photo line for Al Franken. “He puts his hand on my ass. He’s telling the photographer, ‘Take another one. I think I blinked. Take another one.’ And I’m just frozen. It’s so violating. And then he gives me a little squeeze.” t.co/dMkTxhPXni— Ruby Cramer (@rubycramer) September 30, 2019

    “I have dreams of being a Cabinet secretary for the first female president. I have dreams of running a large organization,” she said. “And I believe that even in the most liberal, progressive organizations in the world, it will still be held against me.” t.co/qUuhGYOAnL— Ruby Cramer (@rubycramer) September 30, 2019

  63. 63.

    Ken

    @Amir Khalid: I thought we’d agreed that a Baud administration would fall somewhere between “rainbow unicorns pooping out wishes” and “the living will envy the dead”.

  64. 64.

    TS (the original)

    @Mr. Mack: So pleased the medicos have looked after your recovery. Now we need your insight as to how Baud can sort out the political issues.

  65. 65.

    rikyrah

    Bianca isn’t pretending to be a Black Woman (@JFakhredin) Tweeted:
    I don’t like Michael Moore.

    He’s like an old rich white guy who fancies himself the “blue collar working stiff” yet hasn’t done a hard day of labor in 40 years.

    I also feel like he promotes the fantasy that Trump won on economic anxiety & minimizes how racist MAGA voters are. twitter.com/JFakhredin/status/1178958075182497793?s=17

  67. 67.

    Another Scott

    @Quinerly: None of their stories hold together on the slightest bit of scrutiny.

    Billy, look, you just tell them and they believe it. That’s it: you just tell them and they believe. They just do.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  68. 68.

    SFAW

    @germy:

    Rick Wilson says amusing things about 45, but he’s selective in his criticism.

    I think it’s driftglass (maybe?) who frequently reminds us that Wilson is one of the persons who attacked Dems, viciously and incessantly, and who helped the Party of Traitors gain power — until the Racist-in-Chief started saying the quiet parts out loud. Some of Wilson’s anti-Trump rants are noteworthy (after a fashion), but Wilson is a non-small part of the reason we have Trump.

    So, as the saying goes: Fuck him.

  69. 69.

    danielx

    @Mr. Mack:

    Most excellent. Although clear liquids truly suck – I was once on clear liquids for the better part of three months and lost 26 pounds. Medical miracle, being simultaneously thin and flabby.

  70. 70.

    danielx

    Probably been said, but trying to keep up with news right now is like trying to drink from a fire hose.

  71. 71.

    Cacti

    If the GOP had held Congress in 2018, it might have been the last free election in the history of the Republic.

    For now, it’s temporary slowed down the fascist coup, but as it stands the POTUS is engaging in criminal activity, with the AG openly abetting it and attempting to conceal evidence of malfeasance. If we don’t beat them like a drum at the voting both in 2020, the American experiment in constitutional government is finished.

  72. 72.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I think this is the wrong way to look at it. This is a House trial, not a legal case. The objective here isn’t to win in a court on Giuliani’s A/C privilege claim.
    Democrats need an effective House trial that follows the rules of that forum. They don’t need experts in case law. They need a strong, creative litigator who can be brought up to speed on the rules of that forum and plan THAT trial, not a court case on Giuliani’s A/C claim. I’m afraid they’re going to be advised by lawyers who (understandably) return again and again to the rules and forum they are familiar with and treat everything like a court case. But this isn’t a court case. It’s a House trial. Find and hire someone who is very good at planning and executing trials- doesn’t matter what kind of trial- and tell them “these are the rules we operate under and these are the obstruction hurdles we will encounter- plan around THAT”

  73. 73.

    Another Scott

    @germy: Not to shoot the messenger, but is there some reason why we need to talk about Franken again? Given what Donnie and his minions are doing?

    Not enough circular firing squad stuff this morning?

    (sigh)

    Seriously, Franken is out of politics. He paid a price for his actions.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  75. 75.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Because if they focus on Giuliani they will miss a way around him and the other Trumpsters who will obstruct. I know they’re the big marquee names, but they’re more likely to get actual good testimony from someone who does not spend their life lying on cable television. Use that fact that it’s a House trial rather than a court trial to their advantage instead of doggedly returning again and again to evidence and privilege rules. It’s a story. Tell the story. If the main actors lie or obstruct tell it another way, thru different people.

  76. 76.

    Gin & Tonic

    Ukrainian media reporting Tom Cruise spotted in the Kyiv subway, and apparently had a meeting with Zelenskyy. Not sure why, but it can’t be good, can it?

  77. 77.

    Jeffro

    @rikyrah: good for him for saying it out loud!

    I think Dems are starting to both speak and act this way and understand the urgency here, but whew they’d better hurry up. The AG of this country is so far gone that he’s visiting other countries and trying to turn our allies against our own law enforcement and intelligence communities (to say nothing of a majority of Americans). Point man for a criminal gang – unbelievable.

  78. 78.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Kay: Very much agree. One of the problems of the Mueller Report is that the investigation was a criminal investigation, to find those guilty of criminal conduct with respect to interactions with Russia during the Trump campaign. That’s a worthy objective, but it’s not the biggest thing we need to know to deal with the threat to our government.

    It’s not clear to me why the investigation was limited that way. I can think of probably a half-dozen reasons.

  79. 79.

    Kay

    @rikyrah:

    Barr is much more unsettling to me than Trump is. I’m hoping the fact that Barr is clearly completely captured and corrupt alarms some people inside government who might have been complacent and thinking it’s not an emergency. It is an emergency. The attorney general is corrupt and can’t be relied upon. That’s a crisis.

  82. 82.

    Betty Cracker

    @Gin & Tonic: I saw a report on that. Cruise is in Ukraine to scout a movie location, according to what I read. So no, it’s probably not a good thing. :)

  84. 84.

    SFAW

    @Kay:
    Excellent points and comment. I hope the Trial Manager (whoever that turns out to be), Speaker Pelosi, and Chairman Nadler keep it/them in mind.

  85. 85.

    SFAW

    @Kay:

    The attorney general is corrupt and can’t be relied upon.

    That’s part of the reason I want him impeached before Trump is. I don’t know if Barr is the most corrupt AG ever, but I can’t think of anyone worse — not even Meese (whom I hated).

  86. 86.

    Kay

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    No one needs to be a national security law expert to conduct this trial. It isn’t that kind of trial. They need a creative, agile flexible litigator. They don’t need advice on case law. They need someone who, given a list of potential witnesses, says “this one will obstruct and not give you anything, this one is a liar and worthless, so call THIS one and, oh, this other one who none of you thought of”. They need some successful scrapper who puts on a really good personal injury case, not the former law review editor.

  87. 87.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: I’m hoping the courage of the IC whistleblower inspires other folks to come forward. Maybe it has, but we won’t hear about it for awhile because of the process.

    I thought it was interesting that Rod Rosenstein (feh!) tweeted the following on 9/29:

    “There was overwhelming evidence Russian operatives hacked American computers and defrauded American citizens, and it is only the tip of the iceberg of a comprehensive Russian strategy to influence elections, promote social discord, and undermine America”

    The tweet links a USA Today article about a speech Rosenstein gave earlier this year defending his handling of the Mueller investigation. He’s always trying to have it both ways, Rosenstein. Launches the Mueller probe but stands around smirking while Barr completely mischaracterizes it; asserts the validity of the Mueller report’s conclusions about Russian interference but slags the Obama admin for not doing more to publicize what was happening in 2016 — as if that were the real problem.

    Well, his boss Barr seems to have gone all-in on Trump’s crackpot conspiracy theory that Russia was the innocent party and Ukraine the actual villain, so I wonder how Rosenstein will square that circle.

  89. 89.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Ukrainian media reporting Tom Cruise spotted in the Kyiv subway, and apparently had a meeting with Zelenskyy. Not sure why, but it can’t be good, can it?

    Next movie, Mission Impossible: Rogue President Protocol.

  91. 91.

    RAVEN

    @JPL: The boat I was on last week went 70mph and that is hauling ass on water. I’m glad we didn’t hit anything!

  92. 92.

    Immanentize

    @Mr. Mack:
    When my son had his J-tube removed, he said it was the best day of his short life. It closed immediately and the scar is not more than a cigarette burn big now. Happy removal day!

  93. 93.

    Gelfling 545

    @trnc: True but it was hard to imagine them gaining the presidency so it’s best to be prepared.
    ETA autocorrect wanted to change gaining to gaming. Hmmm.

  94. 94.

    NotMax

    A new month shambles onstage, takes a good look around, attempts a dash back to the wings, is forcibly dragged onto the boards.

  95. 95.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    In continued adventures in random punctuation, I give you the lone quotation mark:

    “The congratulatory phone call with the Ukrainian President was PERFECT, unless you heard Liddle’ Adam Schiff’s fraudulently made up version of the call. This is just another Fake News Media, together with their partner, the Democrat Party, HOAX!— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 1, 2019

    Also, I know Trump didn’t write this one because then it would read pro’growth, pro’worker, all’time.

    When President @realDonaldTrump was elected, his pro-growth, pro-worker agenda was set to change the economic landscape for many.The Hispanic community is no exception—in fact, they're setting all-time records under President Trump!1600 Daily: t.co/A68ueVC88u pic.twitter.com/UJM3SC5K73— The White House (@WhiteHouse) October 1, 2019

  96. 96.

    Immanentize

    @Betty Cracker:

    Well, his boss Barr seems to have gone all-in on Trump’s crackpot conspiracy theory

    Rosensteon retired May 11 of this year. Barr ain’t the boss of him!

  99. 99.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Cacti: F

    or now, it’s temporary slowed down the fascist coup,

    Fascism actually would be better government than this, this is a mob shake down.

  100. 100.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax:
    And with this new month, comes a new Supreme Court term next Monday! My school is hosting a Cato Scholar to discuss the term who was one of the attorneys in the Holder gun case. And I get to be the moderator!

  101. 101.

    Immanentize

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: It’s kinda funny, but wasn’t the “congratulatory” phone call a quick one months earlier? Perhaps that is a phone call that really was perfect — because short.

  104. 104.

    NotMax

    @VivaBrisVegas

    FYI.

    Volodymyr Zelenskyy also noted that the Ukrainian Parliament had recently passed a law on compensation for foreign filmmakers in Ukraine. It will promote active development of the film industry and give a boost to international co-production. Source

    (Link is to Ukrainian government press release site for the executive, so don’t expect more than selectively spun fluff/slant if clicking on other things there.)

  107. 107.

    chopper

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    trump is so fucking pissed that he released a transcript that literally includes him committing a crime, but rather than admit that he fucked up/got rolled he’s trying to make the transcript he himself released turn into ‘adam schiff’s made-up pack of lies’.

    i know it’s par for the course with this guy, but it’s still crazy to watch a hardcore narcissist try to remake reality to his own benefit in real time.

  108. 108.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t know but Democrats just have to prove broad themes- these people are corrupt, they solicited foreign interference in an election, and they tried to hide it. Calling Giuliani was necessary and protects them from the charge that Giuliani will make- that he wasn’t able to defend himself. They can call a whole phalanx of people who WILL appear and talk about Giuliani. His effort to obstruct could even be turned to an advantage for them, but not if they spend months chasing A/C privilege case law and learned treatises on civil contempt. Move on. Call the next witness. They don’t have a long time to plan this trial. Hire someone! They’re not limited to House members who used to work as lawyers and there’s no reason to limit it to the approach a former prosecutor would use either. The flavor of lawyer doesn’t matter. I think the lawyer who asked the good questions in the last hearing is criminal defense. What he is is a good litigator.

  109. 109.

    NotMax

    Memory fail on who it was that mentioned October 1st is his birthday (danielx?).

    Regardless of my brain glitch, happy birthday!

  110. 110.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay: I don’t disagree Kay, with any of your points. But the article is only talking about G-t’s A-C privilege, that’s it. It’s not advocating an impeachment strategy, it is only saying that Giuliani is going to find it very difficult to hide behind A-C privilege.

  111. 111.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    These people never fucking shut up so Democrats have TONS of tv clips. Bring in a witness who makes it possible to play tape of Guiliani yammering about his crimes on Fox. He wants to obstruct and not appear and make his own case? Okay. Then make it without him, using his own words. He had a chance to appear. He chose not to. They owe him nothing.

  113. 113.

    NotMax

    @Immanentize

    It’s muddying the waters. There was a cursory congratulatory call in April after the presidential election and another, purportedly congratulatory, call in July after parliamentary elections.

  114. 114.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: I wish they’d hire YOU! :) Seriously, you’re absolutely correct. Keep it simple and focus on the corruption and cover-up. Everyone already knows Trump is a sleazeball, so it’s not like it’s hard to sell the notion that he’d do something like that.

  115. 115.

    Ivan X

    I don’t know if this has been posted here, but I found it to be the most resonant description of our moment, in which our body politic can’t even disagree on what to do with a common set of facts because we no longer even agree on what the facts are, and that leads to everyone doubting everything, which serves the interests of those in power:

    jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/tliexqdu

  117. 117.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    He’s not going to find it very difficult though. He will be able to hide behind it long enough to protect himself, because it’s going to a court and it will be a year before anyone knows anything.

    We don’t need his testimony. We have 20 hours of Fox appearances where he laid out his crime plan. He’s been testifying on cable news for 3 years and if he doesn’t appear at this trial then he doesn’t defend at this trial. Where did the criminal defense lawyer get the Lewandowski “testimony” he needed? From Lewandowski. On tv.

  118. 118.

    Cheryl from Maryland

    @germy: My opinion of Al Franken’s behavior isn’t logical, but I totally believe these women (except for the Foxbot) based on Franken’s misogynistic comments and sketches while he was at SNL. Yes, it was several decades ago when there were different standards, and yes, people can change, but I stopped finding him funny in the 1990s after comments like A man in drag is funny. A woman in drag is just a dyke. Or: Why don’t we focus on what Afghan women can do? They can cook, bear children and pray. As I recall, that was fine for our grandmothers.

  119. 119.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay:

    He’s been testifying on cable news for 3 years

    A point that is brought up in the article.

  120. 120.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    As a lawyer too, I must say that these expert lawyers have some explaining to do. They continued to endorse certain of their colleagues in the Trump Administration based upon whether the Trump people had the requisite credentials they respect, and, you know, it turns out they’re all scumbags. Maybe they shouldn’t be planning this trial. They show poor judgment. Barr is a freak show. They all thought he was super. Democrats need better lawyers. This crew is killing us.

  121. 121.

    Mr. Mack

    Thanks for all the well wishes! I’ve already decided that Baud! should use our place as his Camp David. Emolument Clause my a$$.

  122. 122.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Kay: They all know one another and are socially friendly. Nicole Wallace talked about how friendly she was with Kavanaugh and his wife. At cocktail parties, these guys can be fine. I’m guessing that lulls the other Villagers.

  123. 123.

    NotMax

    @Kay

    Real lawyer type people, please chime in to correct, elucidate or otherwise amend.

    My understanding is that an attorney working pro bono is still required to have a retainer agreement, specifying any issues the service is being provided for or limits regarding representation.

    If there exists no such document, is attorney-client privilege moot? If there is such a document, can it be demanded as evidence of an attorney-client relationship?

  124. 124.

    Cacti

    Another thing the Democratic message team needs to repeat incessantly until every American knows it by heart:

    “There is no attorney client privilege for crime or fraud.”

    Rudy was abetting ongoing criminal activity. That would make any related communications with Trump part of a criminal conspiracy.

  125. 125.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Because impeachment is fuzzy, because it’s such a weird process that is not rule-bound, IMO they would do well to get advice from people who see that as an advantage (because it is) rather than people who will insist on jamming it into the only set of rules they know, which are courtroom rules.

  126. 126.

    Elizabelle

    @Quinerly: What’s interesting to me is the alleged lack of Melania’s “zed card” (modeling industry equivalent of headshot — has latest photos, face and full body, and is apparently frequently updated).

    But it’s alleged that booking agencies don’t have any for Einstein visa top supermodel Melania. Which she would have needed to actually work in the industry.

    three tweets by Quinn Cummings:

    Which is why her zed cards keep bugging me.

    We have never seen one.

    Models are constantly refreshing and updating their book as they get work. The better pictures become a new zed card. You are being hired because of your looks.

    The visuals which sell you have to be their best, so you and your booker are always trying to improve it. There are always previous cards left over. We have never seen a single zed card for any of the years she was supposed to be working surface.

    Also, no professional shoots of any kind. We have tons of early pictures of any model of her generation, even if you were only a second-tier catalogue model.

    (No insult meant to catalogue. That stuff is BANK)

    Again, if your life is your image, you keep careful track of it.

    No university degree. Allegedly no zed cards for the supermodel work.

    Show us your Melania zed card. Someone needs to dig on this one. And not so much as a slap at Melania, but because it makes it so much more apparent that Trump either bribed or pulled some strings for Melania to get a green card in a category for which she did not qualify. It’s another fraud.

    Do recall that Donald came to wingnut prominence by insisting on documentary proof of Barack Obama’s birth certificate. Documentary evidence is important to us, too.

  127. 127.

    Cacti

    @Kay:

    Because impeachment is fuzzy, because it’s such a weird process that is not rule-bound, IMO they would do well to get advice from people who see that as an advantage (because it is) rather than people who will insist on jamming it into the only set of rules they know, which are courtroom rules.

    Exactly.

    Time to play dirty. The Federal Rules of Evidence are applicable to the Judicial, not the Legislative branch. The Congress has plenary power over impeachment proceedings. Subpoenaed parties are only protected explicitly by the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Which can be worked around by giving key witnesses immunity on the spot.

    Lawrence Tribe was right that this is a time for the House to flex its Constitutional muscles.

  128. 128.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Reading about Mike Pompeo, Bill Barr, and Rudy Giuliani really makes me yearn for the glory days of Rex Tillerson, Jeff Sessions, and Michael Cohen.

  131. 131.

    Kay

    @Elizabelle:

    Honestly to me it was always so clearly a lie that I’m reluctant to go there. It doesn’t make any sense that there’s no working photographs of a model. I guess I’m not sure what it gets us. I resent it only to the extent that media put Michelle Obama under a microscope when Obama was running, down to tracking down her relatives and her grade school and we don’t know the first thing about Melania.

  133. 133.

    Betty Cracker

    @Ivan X: Yes, that is an excellent piece. I don’t know how we solve this problem, but I’m glad so many people who are way smarter than I am are thinking about it.

  134. 134.

    Elizabelle

    @Kay: I know. I don’t particularly want to dump on Melania.

    But this is actual immigration fraud. And it would seem to be proveable. It is noted that visa decisions are “subjective”, but there would seem to be insufficient documentary evidence for this one. So how did the visa come to pass?

    That said, I agree there is plenty more that is more important out there to investigate.

    But we have a lot of journalists and concerned citizens, right? And fraud is unfair; it is theft from the rest of us.

  135. 135.

    Kay

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    It’s gross. Barr literally grosses me out because I feel like he perfectly embodies elite rot.

    We have bigger problems than 20k Trump voters in Michigan. Our elites lack character. They’re sleazy.

  137. 137.

    Cacti

    @Elizabelle:

    I know. I don’t particularly want to dump on Melania

    Why? Melanoma is a birfer too, and everything she’s presented about herself to date is a big fat lie.

    She’s a grifting con artist like the rest of them.

    The only one who’s off limits is Barron, because he’s still a child.

  138. 138.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @germy: I imagine Madame Speaker & most intelligent Democrats are thinking along the lines of –

    The enemies of our enemy are our allies for the time being, possibly for the duration of the present emergency, to be re-evaluated when the danger is past. Then we will see which NeverTrumpers have permanently come to their senses & which revert to RWNJ form, & formulate our plans accordingly.

  139. 139.

    BretH

    @SFAW: Meese is a pig.

    Actually had that T-Shirt. By that time my “F@ck the Bicentennial” T-Shirt was worn out.

  141. 141.

    rikyrah

    Trump, allies peddle bogus claim about changed whistleblower rules
    10/01/19 09:20 AM—UPDATED 10/01/19 09:32 AM
    By Steve Benen

    Yesterday morning, Donald Trump, playing the role of a confused low-information voter, published an all-caps question to Twitter. Adjusting its punctuation, the missive read, “Who changed the long standing whistleblower rules just before submittal of the fake whistleblower report?” (In reality, the complaint from the intelligence community’s whistleblower is anything but “fake.”)

    A day earlier, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) appeared on CBS News’ Face the Nation and asked rhetorically, “What’s going on here? Why did they change the rules about a whistleblower you can use hearsay when you could not just weeks before the complaint?”

    At a certain level, this is a fascinating case study in the ways in which far-right propaganda can start out on a far-right website and then spread like a virus to the Oval Office. It’s also, of course, the latest example, of some of the nation’s most power Republicans peddling nonsense to the public. As a Washington Post fact-check piece explained, the apoplexy appears to stem from a change to the form intelligence community whistleblowers can fill out.

    The original report in the Federalist focused on a change in the form, suggesting it was somehow related to the recent whistleblower case. There is no evidence that is correct.

    In any case, the IG’s process for handling whistleblower allegations is determined not by a form but by the law and related policy documents. The key document, ICD 120, has been virtually unchanged since 2014. Contrary to the speculation, the whistleblower used the 2018 form, not the new online form. The IG then investigated and found that his allegations were credible and that Congress should be notified.

    The president seized on reports on the form to falsely claim the rules for whistleblowers were changed just before the whistleblower’s report was submitted in August. That’s false and worthy of Four Pinocchios.

  142. 142.

    Amir Khalid

    @Betty Cracker:
    Tom Cruise is a pretty big wheel in the Church of Scientology. Maybe they’re thinking of expanding into/taking over Ukraine. (I have no idea if this is true or even remotely plausible; but since we like our conspiracy theories, why not throw it in?)

  144. 144.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Coons, the centrist Democratic Senator, said at some conference words to the effect that it’s harder for them all to get along in the senate because Congress is more diverse. He’s getting slammed for it, but it’s probably true, right? It’s a kind of admission.

    They had this white man club in Congress and now they have all these people insisting they’re actual people and citizens and such- not as much “agreement” :)

  146. 146.

    Betty Cracker

    Meanwhile, Trump this hour on Twitter:

    So if the so-called “Whistleblower” has all second hand information, and almost everything he has said about my “perfect” call with the Ukrainian President is wrong (much to the embarrassment of Pelosi & Schiff), why aren’t we entitled to interview & learn everything about….

    …the Whistleblower, and also the person who gave all of the false information to him. This is simply about a phone conversation that could not have been nicer, warmer, or better. No pressure at all (as confirmed by Ukrainian Pres.). It is just another Democrat Hoax!

    What a fucking idiot. No wonder Trump’s “legal team” is Giuliani and that sketchy husband/wife with the mafioso fashion sense who appear on Fox News. No one respectable wants to represent such a fool.

  148. 148.

    rikyrah

    This is a good segment by Maddow:

    Trump fixation on exonerating Russia entangles Barr, Pompeo

    Rachel Maddow reports on Donald Trump’s unusual fixation with finding reasons to undo sanctions on Russia for the annexation of Crimea and interference in the 2016 election, to the point where he is now reportedly sending Attorney General William Barr overseas to seek help in discrediting the U.S. intelligence community’s conclusions about Russia’s role in 2016.

  149. 149.

    Kay

    @Cacti:

    I saw two layers debating A/C privilege on CNN last night and my heart just sank.

    Oh,no. Not this. I will cry. WEEP with frustration and opportunity lost. My kingdom for a good storyteller. Freewheeling! Agile! Someone who’s like “no rules? Great!”

  152. 152.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    in other news… Zuckerberg sees Warren as an existential threat, says he’ll go to the mat to stop her

    Hamza Shabanhshaban
    Zuckerberg on Elizabeth Warren:
    ”It’s like, we care about our country, and want to work with our government and do good things. But look, at the end of the day, if someone’s going to try to threaten something that existential, you go to the mat and fight”

  154. 154.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Betty Cracker: they’re trying to make ‘hearsay’ and/or “secondhand information” the new “no collision”, it’s untrue, legally meaningless, but gives their supporters what they think is a hook to hang their support for trump on

  155. 155.

    Al Z.

    @Steeplejack: The best part about that tweet is the FoxNews guy who asked Matt if he’d be willing to answer some questions about it; to which Matt responds “Hi Mike! Absolutely not, fuck Fox News.”

  156. 156.

    Another Scott

    @NotMax: I agree that there should be some sort of formal document in lieu of a retainer, etc. Just letting some Joe say “I’m his lawyer” without any formal responsibilities invites all kinds of abuse. “I’m his lawyer and he’s my lawyer so we don’t have to talk to you. Nyah, nyah, nyah. >:-p”

    I’m sure this has come up since Hammurabi’s days. It would be nice if our local Popehats could explain it for us.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  157. 157.

    David Evans

    @OzarkHillbilly: “The age and body of a cyborg”? What does that even mean?
    As if it mattered, I think Greta Thunberg looks perfectly fine for her age. Sometimes she looks ugly when angered, but so does everybody. And if she had looked as sexy as those long-ago Swedish girls you can bet that a whole other lot of men would have been on her case.

  158. 158.

    germy

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    in other news… Zuckerberg sees Warren as an existential threat, says he’ll go to the mat to stop her

    Makes me want to see President Warren even more.

    And he’ll fight… how? More disinformation?

  159. 159.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    why aren’t we entitled to interview & learn everything about….
    …the Whistleblower,

    Who is “we”? Trump and his two lawyers? Barr and Rudy? There’s no distinction with these people between their own asses and The United States.

    Barr is destroying the US justice system. He has turned it into Donald Trump’s defense team. I don’t know how we get it back.

    I’m SO disappointed in the lawyers. I mean Jesus Christ, get up off your knees. Is there not a ONE of them who will defend the country? The fucking people who pay them? Stand up to him!

  160. 160.

    Chyron HR

    @Cacti:

    The only one who’s off limits is Barron, because he’s still a child.

    He’s only going to be 18 when the GOP nominates him in 2024 as “the rightful heir to the throne”, so he better be on-limits(?).

  161. 161.

    Rommie

    @Betty Cracker: I feel the simplest and best answer is that Trump has used Extortion so often in life that he truly sees nothing wrong with it. It’s who else believes that (Extortion is just Business) which will end up deciding his fate.

  162. 162.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: I’m SO disappointed in the lawyers. I mean Jesus Christ, get up off your knees. Is there not a ONE of them who will defend the country? The fucking people who pay them? Stand up to him!

    Somebody on twitter said that if Mueller stays silent as Barr goes around the world trying to bully foreign gov’ts in to discrediting his report, it’s cowardice. That seems a bit excessive to me, but I do wonder when, or whether, his staff will start some strategic leaking

  163. 163.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Warren responds:

    “What would really ‘suck’ is if we don’t fix a corrupt system that lets giant companies like Facebook engage in illegal anticompetitive practices, stomp on consumer privacy rights & repeatedly fumble their responsibility to protect our democracy”

    Zing!

  164. 164.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Ben Rhodes brhodes
    “Donald Trump has more fans on Facebook than any other presidential candidate. And Fox News drives more interactions on its Facebook page than any other news outlet in the world. It’s not even close.” – Zuckerberg statement after the meeting.

    trumpbook

  166. 166.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    David Frum @ davidfrum
    If they wanted to understand origins of Trump-Russia, DOJ would review Trump’s business records 2006-2016

    Instead Wm Barr is pressuring allies to agree that Russia was innocent and Trump was a victim.

    Barr is not “scrutinizing” anything, he’s fabricating a cover-up

  167. 167.

    eric

    @Another Scott: you do not need a formal written document. Without one, there are issues. First, the question of whether you do in fact represent the person is based upon their reasonable assessment of the situation. That is why people disclaim “this is not legal advice.” If I am telling you about the law, and YOU reasonable believe that I represent you, then I do. You also do one for scope of services. It is just as important (though not done nearly enough) to send a letter terminating the engagement, so that you are not liable for neglecting your duties from the date you think you are no longer the person’s lawyer.

  169. 169.

    zhena gogolia

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    It’s the same first name as Putin’s. Vladimir is Volodymyr in Ukrainian.

    The prince/saint who brought Christianity to Rus.

    Derived from the Slavic element vladeti “rule” combined with meru “great, famous”. The second element has also been associated with miru meaning “peace, world”. This was the name of an 11th-century grand prince of Kiev who is venerated as a saint because of his efforts to Christianize his realm (Kievan Rus). It was also borne by the founder of the former Soviet state, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (1870-1924).

  171. 171.

    zhena gogolia

    The last paragraph of my comment #169 is taken off the internet, but I couldn’t figure out how to blockquote in edit.

  172. 172.

    Hoodie

    @Cacti: That’s not playing dirty. What Tribe is saying is that the House sets the rules for impeachment, not the courts. The baseline position should be that impeachment is nonjusticiable and the only real constraint on the House is stuff like someone cannot be compelled to incriminate themselves for criminal actions, i.e., they can take the 5th and, perhaps, some information may need to be kept secret for national security reasons (there are ways around that). For this reason, as I saw someone suggest last night, the House may want to pass a formal resolution requiring an impeachment inquiry, justified by the fact that there is already a prima facie case for abuse of power based on Trump’s admissions alone. Arguably, things like attorney/client privilege are not relevant to such impeachment proceedings, as that is a prophylactic rule to keep courts from unfairly disadvantaging people who are at risk of losing life and/or liberty. Trump is not being deprived of his life or liberty in an impeachment – he’s just at risk of losing a privilege – there is no “right” to be president. The only people whose rights are potentially affected by impeachment are voters, and they can exact retribution for a bad impeachment in the next election. It is the quintessential political question.

    Subpoena Giuliani and, if he refuses to appear, cite him for contempt of Congress and move on. Subpoena anybody in the executive branch who had any involvement in the Ukraine stuff and, if they refuse to appear, add that to the impeachment counts against Trump for obstruction of Congress and abuse of power. Do the same if they appear and claim bogus privileges. You can make criminal referrals for contempt, but don’t let appeals to the courts impede the inquiry, because you don’t have to in the impeachment context. Turn the tables on Trump, who constantly claims that his actions are not subject to court review. if anything, Congress has a better argument for non-reviewability in the impeachment context. Make them go to court; if they do, my guess is that Roberts doesn’t want to touch it because he’s already staked out a pretty expansive political question jurisprudence. Dump the whole thing in McConnell’s lap and make him sweat what he’s going to do about it.

  173. 173.

    NotMax

    @eric

    I do know that some state bar associations provide samples of pro bono retainer agreements on their web sites. Whether they are required by rules of the state bar associations, though, I am unsure.

  174. 174.

    eric

    @NotMax: My understanding is that they are not “required.” However, each side has an interest in the writing. The client has confirmation that payment is not expected and the lawyer sets forth the scope

  176. 176.

    Steeplejack

    Just a note that MHz has started running Inspector Montalbano episodes again, one a day at 8:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. EDT. The first one aired today, and it looks like they’re going in order. Definitely worth checking out if your cable system gets MHz. It’s the “foreign” channel with France 24 news, etc. Also available as a channel on Amazon Prime.

  177. 177.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:

    I mean Jesus Christ, get up off your knees. Is there not a ONE of them who will defend the country? The fucking people who pay them? Stand up to him!

    Tell it, Kay.

  179. 179.

    VFX Lurker

    @Another Scott:

    is there some reason why we need to talk about Franken again? Given what Donnie and his minions are doing?

    Not enough circular firing squad stuff this morning?

    (sigh)

    Seriously, Franken is out of politics. He paid a price for his actions.

    The women who spoke against him then continue to pay the price for his actions. Even from other women. Even now.

    Meanwhile, Franken’s starry-eyed fans keep hoping to bring Franken back to politics. I saw it on this blog’s own comment section in the last few days, to the dismay and disdain of other commentators here.

    Yes, it’s worthwhile to listen to the women Franken groped. We can do this while going after the ne’er-do-wells in the White House. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

  180. 180.

    Elizabelle

    @zhena gogolia:

    for blockquote, type that very word within a set of brackets

    and put in

    for italics, use em within the brackets

    for bold, use strong. Always finish with </

    Could not explain better because FYWP keeps seeing my text as commands.

    Does that help??

  182. 182.

    J R in WV

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Who knew you could shake the patriarchy simply by refusing to smile for it, dress for it or demur to it? A refusal to acquiesce to the male gaze has these dinosaurs squirming.

    Reminds me a whole lot of Emma González (of the Parkland survivors activists) in her refusal to back down or yield to the old men and their attitudes about girls. Strong young women!

  184. 184.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay: There often seems to be a catch-22 involved: impeachment is only justified if there’s a crime, it’s only a crime if we had the kind of evidence that would be uncovered in prosecution, but nobody can prosecute the President because impeachment is supposed to be the remedy for his crimes. OK, how is that supposed to get started? It’s why Mueller never really went directly after Trump.

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