The State Department has directed Gordon Sondland, Ambassador to the EU and enthusiastic user of WhatsApp, not to testify.
Sondland can’t testify because he’s still an employee. If I were him – that is, if I were a person caught red-handed as a lower-echelon conspirator – I would just quit and testify, and then go cooperate with any of the inevitable criminal investigations in hopes that I wouldn’t be wearing a jumpsuit in a minimum security prison. But, apparently, Sondland wants to go down with the ship.
On The Road: On Hiatus
Dorothy A. Winsor
If Sondland contributed $1M to Trump’s campaign, he can afford to quit and go back to whatever he was doing before. I’d like to see Congress hold him in contempt. Someone needs to be exhibit #1 for what happens to you if you defy a Congressional subpoena.
No One of Consequence
Great googly moogly.
The gob, it is so sore from overabuse what with all the smacking lately.
I recognize my country less and less. And I hope and suspect it is not Alzheimer’s.
Peace and Justice,
– NOoC
Aleta
poor thing
Spanky
@Aleta: I thought that that looked like taunting, which is an additional 15 yard penalty tacked on to the end of whatever sentence he winds up with.
Matt McIrvin
The fact that the administration is ordering people not to testify, presumably under orders or at least approval from Trump, is an impeachable offense in itself. We really don’t need anything else.
Betty Cracker
Does anyone know if former Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch is still a State Dept. employee?
Quinerly
@Betty Cracker: MSNBC just said she is still an employee of the State Department
Betty Cracker
@Matt McIrvin: True in a technical sense, but from a public opinion standpoint, we need to expose as much of this corrupt crew’s malfeasance as we can so we can hang it around Republicans’ necks when they take a vote to let the criminals get away with it.
@Quinerly: Thank you! I wonder if she’ll be willing to quit and testify or defy orders as an employee and testify…
Cervantes
You seem to forget the presidential pardon power. Also too, I don’t expect William Barr will prosecute.
oldster
Jail him. Find him in contempt, and then put him in jail until he testifies.
Congress has the power, unless it gives it away. Use it or lose it. And start with a low-level, unsympathetic schmuck like Sondland.
Then work upwards.
Barbara
It used to be that if an employee refused to testify in front of Congress said employee could not remain employed by the USG. If you remember, Monica Goodling resigned rather than testify.
JPL
Speculation is that republicans can stomach obstruction, but maybe not his testimony. Republicans are beginning to slowly move towards impeachment. Additional defectors would not be welcome.
MattF
Let’s see… we have 1) Obstruction of justice, and 2) Abuse of power. There needs to be a third, if only for stylistic reasons. And no, it can’t be ‘Assholery’.
ETA: ‘Treason’?
Jinchi
Does Pompeo, who is directly implicated in these crimes, really have the authority to prevent an employee from responding to a Congressional subpoena during an impeachment investigation?
Rommie
@MattF: How about aiding our enemies, Foreign and Domestic?
Gin & Tonic
Marie Yovanovitch is 60 years old and a career Foreign Service Officer. I’m sure she has thought long and hard about her personal financial situation, her pension, etc. Suggesting someone in that position resign on principle and defy SecState and POTUS is a hell of a stretch.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Gin & Tonic: Compared to Sondland especially. That’s why he should be the one to go to jail.
Kay
Absolute contempt for the public, Team Trump. The rules don’t apply to the special people.
Remember when the lying she-devil testified for 11 hours? And the media continued to portray her as presumptively a criminal and obstructing?
They never had SHIT in Benghazi- everyone’s aware of that, right? They promised to find something! They promoted it for 2 years! But they never had anything at all.
rikyrah
When I found out about WhatsApp,……
I could do nothing but LOL
Kay
Today in courtrooms and proceedings all over the country thousands of people will testify. Many of them don’t want to!
But the most powerful people? They’re excused. They claim special status and refuse to speak on the record and under oath to the people who pay them.
What if everyone did this? What if everyone in the country behaved like Donald Trump and his employees?
Kay
@rikyrah:
It is AMAZING how our grave national concern for secure communications has just..poof! Disappeared!
The President’s sleazy lawyer(s) and the other assorted low quality hires are privy to our entire foreign policy and national security issues in numerous countries and the public has no clue what they do when they’re working on his behalf. Congress doesn’t know either. Half of Congress doesn’t want to know and are working as hard as they can not to find out.
Soprano2
Congress needs to start having people arrested. That would make some of them think twice before refusing to testify. From what I’ve read there are no actual grounds for this refusal other than the State Department saying no.
Kay, of course if everyone behaved this way it wouldn’t be tolerated. Wealthy, powerful people always get a pass. That’s one reason they’re so terrified of Elizabeth Warren – she refuses to believe they deserve that.
Aleta
@Spanky: ha (He’ll never score now!)
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
My blood pressure just shot sky high – I just saw the three stooges (Meadows, Gaetz, Jordan) on TV, Meadows with that filthy North Carolina drawl. It took everything I could do to not drive my fist through the TV.
I hate these people.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: Sometimes doing the right thing is hard. I can’t say I’d have the courage to put the country’s interests above my own if I were in her situation since I’ve never been tested in that way, but I hope I would.
rikyrah
@Kay:
I don’t even use it. But, it’s the thought of doing BUSINESS OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT..
over a damn APP?
Kay
@Soprano2:
Trump himself says there’s nothing wrong with what he did. So why won’t the underlings testify? We footed the bill for this entire political operation they’ve been running. I’d like to know what I paid for. I laughed out loud when it came out they were also running a sleazy deal on individual “business opportunities”. Of course they were. It’s always, always about individual self interest. It’s the icing on the corruption cake. They don’t just run Dear Leaders scams on our dime, they also always have a personal angle.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: Magic eight ball says NO.
Bruce K
Lincoln supposedly said once, “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
Well, we’ve given them power, and we’ve seen what they’ve done with it.
The problem is going to be taking away that power, and making sure that they never have access to it again.
oldgold
I cannot believe they did not subpoena Sondland. What were they thinking?
When engaged in matters such as this you need to size up your opponent and play the game accordingly.
catclub
@Kay:
Most people are bound by the law but not protected by it.
Others are protected by the law, but not bound by it. Double for Trump. When he applies for an emergency stay of some order, he always gets it.
When he ignores court orders, nothing happens.
Aleta
Ian R
@rikyrah: It’s amazing the places that app has crept in. I remember back when the various Members of Parliament broke off to form what became change.uk, one of the things that kept being mentioned was them leaving the various Tory WhatsApp groups.
moops
Norms don’t apply anymore, and none of these people are going to show up to testify. Standard GOP practice during all bad scandals. Just don’t show up, and don’t cooperate with investigations and obstruct justice as much as they like, and there are never any consequences. Things will not improve until someone does hard prison time for violating summons and obstructing justice. It has been true since the Cheney administration.
RepubAnon
@Cervantes: That’s it. These folks are caught between Congress and the DOJ. Whichever one they cooperate with, the other one will attack. The Congressional committees should stop seeking voluntary cooperation and go straight to subpoenas.
Patricia Kayden
And Trump has invited Erdogan for an official state visit while Erdogan is in the midst of murdering Kurds. How nice and normal.
Chyron HR
@Gin & Tonic:
Speaking as a member of a demographic that earned the POTUS’s wrath by simply existing, boo hoo.
rp
@oldgold: Why would they subpoena him when he agreed to appear voluntarily? It’s not as if they’ve given up the right to subpoena him.
Patricia Kayden
@moops: Imagine what would have happened if Secretary Clinton hadn’t shown up to be grilled for 11 hours by House Republicans. Or if Attorney General Holder hadn’t turned up when he was called to testify at the Fast and Furious hearing.
But IOKIYAR.
Aleta
Sierra Hull, Weighted Mind
A Good Woman
@Gin & Tonic: It hinges on whether she came in under the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) or the replacement Federal Employee Retirement System (FERS). The latter incorporates Social Security and retirement follows those rules. CSRS employees can retire at age 55 w/30 years of service. She would certainly qualify to retire under that program, assuming she was covered by it.
germy
(wikipedia)
Raoul
Sonland paid one million dollars for his ticket. Hell yes, he’s going to stay on SS Trump.
Kent
We know from the Clinton fiasco that only non-classified material gets handled on non-secure methods like WhatsApp. So therefore, nothing these criminals said on WhatsApp should be classifed and we should all be able to see it.
Right? Right?
Kelly
@MattF:
Articles 10 and 11 of the Andrew Johnson impeachment were kinda for assholery.
germy
This system of rewarding donors with political positions is pretty rotten.
Aleta
Sierra Hull, The In-Between
Raoul
@Kay: Right. Trump’s position this morning (as he openly admits that he is obstructing Sonland’s testimony): I’d be totally exonerated, but for Schiff being a meanie.
scav
He really is running the country like a business. There’s more here (Trump firm ‘refusing to pay’ legal bill for windfarm case) but here’s a topical quote
ssshhhhh. I fear our political landscape is dotted with these horrible horrible red-hatted structures.
oldgold
@rp:
Yes, I would. And, have done so when dealing with skunks. Then, you use the belts and suspenders approach.
You lose what i criticized Mueller for repeatedly: timing and time.
chopper
@Matt McIrvin:
how is this not obstruction?
Belafon
@RepubAnon: The Congressional committees are submitting subpoenas. They’re challenging those in court.
Mike in DC
Pelosi should do the following:
1. Announce that the House will be holding 2 votes: the first on opening a formal impeachment inquiry, the second to “pre-authorize” committee heads investigating matters related to impeachment to hold witnesses in inherent contempt of Congress and arrest them on the spot.
2. Make this announcement while accompanied by the Sergeant at Arms of the Senate and a squad of Capitol Police.
3. Announce that, in light of US v Nixon, the House will NOT recognize any subsequent claims of executive privilege(or any other objections) and will expect full compliance. Any noncompliance will be further evidence of obstruction of justice, itself an impeachable offense.
Part of public support for impeachment rising is the House showing actual strength and a spine for one. Pelosi should lean into that.
chopper
@Aleta:
PERSONAL EMAILS??!
West of the Rockies
Well, in response I suspect we may soon the gentle hiss of air (and damning information) leaking from the IC apparatus.
Kay
@Raoul:
Ordinary people don’t get to pick the prosecutor. It’s entitlement, pure and simple. They’re special so their hurt feelings matter.
I read that Guiliani hates Biden for “a noun and a verb and 9/11”. That was a good line and it’s 100% true- no wonder it stung.
The people in the highest levels of government are spoiled, entitled 7th graders. Petty, wholly self absorbed and childish. I blame their parents. Poorly raised.
rikyrah
??????
Spent a day marinating in black excellence with these gorgeous, promising, young men at @Morehouse. They honored me with roses, a song, and a portrait for a scholarship fund I set up 30 years ago. Can’t wait to see what they do with their future. pic.twitter.com/o28hWkdC7w
— Oprah Winfrey (@Oprah) October 8, 2019
rikyrah
Wakandan War Dog (@Kennymack1971) Tweeted:
In the end let the record show White America’s collective arrogance, stupidity, hard headedness and unwavering belief in the myth of white supremacy above all did more to tank the United States than the “Others” they worked so hard to hold back.
Assholes.
Wakandan War Dog (@Kennymack1971) Tweeted:
That’s why while it may be unfair to some of you these “I regret my vote” folks can go fuck themselves as far as I’m concerned. You could’ve done the right thing in 2016 but you chose the orange racist.
Fuck your regrets.
Wakandan War Dog (@Kennymack1971) Tweeted:
I’ve said it before and I will keep saying it…I will never let go of the fact that a majority of white voters decided to put a janky ass D celebrity in the WH. And now they have the gall to be stunned at the results.
This really happened. They can’t tell me shit.
Ever again. https://twitter.com/Kennymack1971/status/1181401359435943936?s=17
Another Scott
Twitter:
1984 was not intended to be an instruction manual!!11
Grrr…
Cheers,
Scott.
Snarki, child of Loki
“hold witnesses in inherent contempt of Congress and arrest them on the spot.”
hold them in the House basement and waterboard them until they talk also, too.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Gin & Tonic: Your experience may be different from mine, but my friends in the Foreign Service were either up or out at age 60. No one I know had calculated that their pension or finances would improve by staying on longer, even if they had a position in which to stay longer. However, none of my friends had reached the Ambassador level. I’m shocked she is still an employee and actually has a position — albeit a university fellowship.
Kay
And, there it is. But you knew it. Everyone knows it. Incredibly, now that they successfully smeared Clinton all the phony national security hawks no longer care about this. Phonies and frauds, the lot of ’em.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: @Cheryl from Maryland:
Has anyone considered that Yovanovitch might also be at least knee deep in corrupt shit and therefore the current State Dept. Is the best place for her?
There are no White Wizards in this episode.
JR
The dude bought into his position. This was as predictable as it gets.
cain
@Cervantes:
Interesting if the president can pardon someone who defies congress to testify something against the President. That seems like a SCOTUS thing.
japa21
@Immanentize: Highly unlikely.
Kay
Of course he did. He always does. He’s a terrible negotiator. The funniest part about the Ukraine thing is how he blurted out what he wants and made it clear he was willing to trade anything, anything to get it. He somehow managed to start with a desperate Ukraine on the other side of the table and then he handed them all the leverage by showing just how much he needed fake dirt on Biden in order to win. The Ukranian leader is also inexperienced, but they aren’t all that desperate and they will, ARE, taking advantage of him, because he’s a moron.
psycholinguist
I’d think Yovanovitch could call the bluff pretty easily. She testifies, and what – they fire her? That would create a shitstorm much larger than the one they have now for prohibiting witnesses. I’d hope she’d understand she has the power in this situation, but I’d guess these people have risk-averse lawyers telling them something else.
cain
The next time the budget needs to be passed, I guess, they’ll need to be forced to show up. No DOJ without no money, motherfucker. We might as use every tool. Nancy passed a budget up to this year. After that, just threaten to not pass a budget until those assholes show up in court. That is the one power those fuckers can’t force. Of course, knowing Trump, he’ll just start spending money regardless ignoring the House.
Kay
The thing is if you’re a good negotiator you don’t find yourself in this massive mess of your own making.
Trump’s ace negotiation skills are so bad they are going to get him impeached. Donald Trump ran this clown show. It’s his from start to finish, and look where he is- paying whole teams of sleazy lawyers to cover his ass and obstruct. That’s not an…ideal result. He fucks up once a month and then spends the next six months weaseling out of it. That’s not (actually) a good performance. You don’t get credit for making your own problems and then blunderingly attempting to fix them.
Kay
Guiliani is another one. He’s such a good lawyer he’s gotten his client impeached. His client is in worse shape than he is, as a result of his “expert” counsel. Good job, low quality hires! Maybe next you can put him in prison.
ET
Top level at State and all of the WH have to be shredding documents right and left because whenever there is a new administration – pray for the sooner rather than the later – it all comes out anyway. And in any case, just because the political hacks like Pompeo and Sondland won’t testify doesn’t mean that at some point non-political appointees won’t start talking (particularly when Pompeo and tRump are gone and not around to threaten)./ I know this is a tRump & Co tactic – delay, delay, delay – but they won’t be able to control the narrative forever. When the threat of that power is gone and they don’t have the power behind them they don’t have any say.
M31
@MattF:
3) Oops
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: Do you have evidence to smear her with, counselor?
Jamie
@West of the Rockies:
That’s my guess. It’s messed up that we’ve come to expect/rely on this, but I really don’t see the IC sitting idly by and twiddling their thumbs while the administration fucks them over again and again and again.
Immanentize
@japa21:
Why?
wvblueguy
@Mike in DC
You make more sense than virtually everybody including the Democrats in Congress. Showing disdain for the constitutional powers of Congress as Trump and his cronies have done is something that needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Your ideas will get this done. I’m tired of seeing Democrats being looked at as wimps. Issue Sondland a subpoena and put him in jail if he doesn’t testify. It is also time to take the case to the courts. If the Trump Supreme Court doesn’t support the right of Congressional oversight then we are looking at a future full of corruption and malfeasance. Going to the Courts also will give the impression that something is being done.
cain
Out of curiosity, can the DOJ intimidate House members with bullshit investigations? Seems like he can direct all kinds of things, spy on them and not only use it against House members, but also share it with Russians.
Mike in Pasadena
@Kay: The differnce must be emails vs texts. /s
Another Scott
@Jinchi: Lawyers can argue about anything. It’s what they’re trained and paid to do.
Executive agencies commonly have “public affairs” officers, and people whose job it is to interact with Congress. It’s unusual for an underling to testify before Congress. But, obviously, a congressional subpoena should be respected in almost all circumstances, no matter who is called.
Cheers,
Scott.
Humdog
Yovanovitch Got the boot because she wouldn’t go along with Rudy Colludy and his extortion game. Why would anyone think she is dirty?
I still think the EU should expel our ambassador. He helped endanger a nation petitioning for EU membership. I would think they would have zero tolerance of such a thing.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic:
Who is smearing anyone? She remained in a political appointment in this administration in a place where everyone knew Trump and his cronies had on the ground interests. Before she was appointed, we knew the Trump/Republican plan was to give as much of Ukraine to the Russians as possible. And she was certainly informed about the Manafort investigation. You think she has been a resistance mole for three years working for Clinton or the Deep State?
At best, she was acting professionally in extremely difficult situations. But she was also carrying Trump’s water because she was a member of his State Department when most other hold over ambassadors were removed or quit. Especially in sensitive postings. Hell, even Huntsman quit.
I neither smear her nor clear her. As people have pointed out, time will tell. But to think that she is the James Dean of this scandal is my hope, but I dare not trust that hope. Facts counsel otherwise.
Kent
@Cheryl from Maryland:
Well, technically speaking the pension does improve with more years served. It’s a mathematical formula. But the difference is like 2-3% per year. There isn’t a threashold in Federal pensions like in some police/fire pensions. I worked for 10 years and get a pension that is half what it would be if I had worked 20 years, etc.
Someone at the ambasador level would most likely be looking for some think tank or NGO type job to plug the gap between leaving Federal service and starting full time retirement. There are a bazillion international NGOs out there who would probably be interested in hiring former ambasadors. It is a big revolving door. So she would have options. Being fired by Trump for having integrity is probably a plus career-wise at this point.
Kent
@cain:
No, there is separation of powers. I mean technically they can open actual criminal investigations for actual crimes like bribery. Remember Abscam and the Louisiana Dem who got caught with dirty cash frozen in his freezer? But the DOJ can’t investigate House members for anything related to their actual jobs.
Nixon tried to get the IRS to audit his enemies in Congress. That didn’t work so well for him.
The Moar You Know
@psycholinguist: I’m sure you’re just as qualified to make that assessment as someone with a law license.
J R in WV
@Mike in DC:
I agree strongly with this list of steps that should be taken; arresting those refusing to testify, especially. Take them out of their homes at 6 am if necessary, do a large bunch the first time, everyone who hasn’t done the right thing so far at the time of the bust. Put them into a DC city jail with the standard people you find in the DC jail, general population.
catclub
@Kent: pension at 60 with 20 years service is 20% of high three-yrs salary
pension at 62 with 22 years service is 24.2% of high three salary. So that later pension is more than 20% higher than the lower pension.
Not a cliff, but 62 is notably better than 60 for retirement.
japa21
@Immanentize: She has been in the foreign service for over 30 years. She was appointed to Ukraine by Obama. To resign that position would have been to end her career. She was on the front lines fighting corruption in Ukraine but was recalled because she wouldn’t cooperate in Trump’s blackmail scheme. Which, in and of itself, is evidence this had nothing to do with Trump’s concern with corruption as that was a major concern of hers.
I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to think she in any way would be “knee-deep” in this mess.
ETA: You brought up Huntsman who didn’t need his position. I doubt she is independently wealthy.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: Are you suggesting that no conscientious Foreign Service Officer should have taken that posting? Leaving Ukraine either with no Ambassador or with some political hack would have been better? Should the current chargé d’affaires, William Taylor, also be implicated as crooked because he took on that posting? I’m not clear on your argument.
J R in WV
@cain:
Actually, one of the few limits of the pardon power is in cases of impeachment. They saw that unlimited pardon power would make impeachment a dead letter on day one. Not that the Supremes might not want to attempt to undo that black letter Constitutional limitation.
Personally, I believe Supreme Court Justices who go along with Trump’s obstruction of justice should be Impeached, have their federal pensions stricken, etc, etc.
Kent
@catclub: I guess the State Dept is different from other civilian agencies. I worked for NOAA and there was no such break point. After 20 years of service the multiplier goes from 1% to 1.1% under FERS which is not nothing I guess. But not the 20% you cite.
big mango
@moops: since the Reagan admin….since the Nixon admin….since the ….admin….
Ksmiami
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: if I ever see them in person…
Ksmiami
@Chyron HR: I no longer believe peaceful coexistence is possible nor desired. The Republican Party is an enemy of modern Democracy
catclub
@Kent: That is all I am citing. 1.1 is 10% better than 1%, but with the additional two years, another 10%,
then multiply.
it is 1.1 x22xhighthree = 24.2 * highthree
versus 1.0*20* highthree= 20 * highthree
no: the FERS multiplier goes to 1.1 at age 62, with 20+
years. At age 60 I am pretty sure the multiplier is only 1.0
catclub
From FERS:
FERS Basic Annuity Formula Age Formula
I was comparing age 60, with 20 years, and age 62 with 22 years.
Kent
@catclub: OK, we are on the same page. It’s here: https://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/fers-information/computation/
Point is, walking away now is not the same thing as retirement. It is simply resigning. She could easily come back in 2 years and take another job with the next administration. People do come and go from government all the time. Of course if she is a GOP hack then that would be unlikely.
Also still, the FERS pension is really just a 1/2 pension compared to normal pensions. No one lives on a FERS pension. They also draw social security and with 20+ years of service should also have a very tidy TSP account balance (Federal 401k). So a 20% hit to her FERS pension is really only like a 5% hit to her actual retirement income. Not like the old days when pension was all you had.
In any event, I think there is a separate retirement system for the state department foreign service that is different from regular civilian FERS. I think state department employees who work in DC get the normal FERS but foreign service officers serving overseas have something more like the military pension.
Zelma
Isn’t Sondland a hotelier? Doesn’t he have a lot of hotels in the Pacific Northwest, like Portland and Seattle? Wouldn’t it be interesting if there were demonstrations at his hotels reminding his patrons that he is defying the United States Congress? And that he is apparently corrupt? Aren’t there lots of Democrats in Portland and Seattle? Hit the guy where it hurts.
Kent
@Zelma: Yes he is. He owns a bunch of the very fanciest “boutique” hotels in downtown Portland like this one: https://heathmanhotel.com/
I live here in the Portland area and this guy is actually sort of the anti-Trump in terms of profile. He has always been pretty under the radar compared to some other Portland business types who are more splashy like Trump and have their names everywhere. I don’t think a lot of people really knew of him until this stuff broke. He doesn’t strike me as the type who wants his “brand” sullied by politics, especially in the PNW.
Terry chay
Sondland makes sense since I am willing to bet that this was an pre-agreed-upon delaying tactic.
What Yovonavoch does will be based on what her lawyer advises, not some political calculus or percent in her pension.
Bonnie
The fact that he is still a Federal Government employee is all the more reason why he should testify. If he doesn’t, he should be fired. I know that is what would have happened to me when I worked for the government for 37 years. Sondland is breaking a law by not testifying. Fire his you-know-what!