White House Counsel Pat Cipollone sent a letter to Nancy Pelosi and the chairs of the House Intelligence, Foreign Affairs, and Oversight and Reform Committees, essentially throwing a tantrum.
“No, no, no! Won’t testify, you are picking on the President!”
Reports are that faces in the White House are turning blue.
IANAL, but it’s a pretty bad letter. I will wait for Lawfare and Just Security to publish their pieces on it, which I suspect will be multiple. Just dealing with the first three paragraphs could expand to multiple pages.
The argument is that the House is doing everything wrong and is an illegitimate part of government.
All of this violates the Constitution, the rule of law, and every past precedent.
Emphasis in the document.
A few early legal opinions.
https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1181687389976031233
https://twitter.com/curtosys/status/1181691419787956224
https://twitter.com/jonfavs/status/1181689757207650304
https://twitter.com/greggnunziata/status/1181685021926662144
President can't be impeached because he has a country to run is not a winning argument. https://t.co/G1dwPYgFB4
— Jameel Jaffer (@JameelJaffer) October 8, 2019
They are basically arguing that the president is above accountability to anyone or any institution—that the executive is above and not co-equal to the other branches of government. https://t.co/GOAlQjCX9z
— Ankit Panda (@nktpnd) October 8, 2019
It is a letter contemptuous of Constitutional governance; utterly devoid of intelligence, tact, or even the guile to which we have become accustomed. An inquiry is an investigation, not a trial. Process points made in letter are completely irrelevant and don’t justify obstruction
— Frank Jannuzi ☮️ (@FrankJannuzi) October 8, 2019
The floor is now open to the Balloon Juice jackals, and also open thread.
Yutsano
I’m at work and I have physio tonight, but from what I’m hearing the letter is bananapants on steroids.
Chyron HR
I don’t understand, I was told that once the House started calling their investigations “impeachment” the White House would be forced to comply.
Raoul
Worth noting that Nunziata used to staff Marco Rubio as General Counsel, and before that was with the Senate Republican Policy Committee, so he isn’t some flaming lib.
Jamie
Wheeeee!
Somebody stop this ride. I want to get off.
Spanky
Was this letter written by John Barron, Esq.?
dm
Rachel Maddow tonight will be lit.
Cacti
Funny thing, the Constitution basically leaves it entirely to Congress to decide what is or isn’t a legitimate use of the impeachment power.
Mandalay
OT, but since this is an open thread…:
Bye Joe. Maybe try again in 2028, as President Warren completes her second term?
Mary G
Well, now we’ll find out if the five conservatives on the SC are the originalists they claim to be, because it says right in the Constitution that
If they find anything else than that the WH has to cough up, they’ll out themselves as totalitarians. Nancy, Adam, Jerry and whoever else should go straight to the Supremes. Anything else is just prolonging the stall Twitler’s trying to pull.
Jay
Great write up on the Royjova situation covering Turkey, ISIL and the Royjova Kurds situation,
thedailybeast.com/kurds-have-been-preparing-for-trumps-syria-betrayalwith-a-vengeance?via=ios
Raoul
Apparently utter brazenness and total contempt continues to be the special bond between US and UK.
Mary G
Captain C
Alex, I’ll take letters of desperation and utter bullshit for 400, please…
I mean, this reads like an angry high schooler wrote it. An angry high schooler who had just failed his civics class for the third time.
Raoul
Also, about the letter. I find it hilarious that some media folks are characterizing this as ‘war’ or super-threatening (not to pick on Charlie Pierce, who in his way is also correct. I mean the ones whose hot take is ‘war on Pelosi/Schiff’).
It’s a kid in his driveway, yelling over and over “My Dad’s gonna sue the PANTS off you! He’s a *lawyer* and everything!” while the cool kids bike on down the street, laughing because he pissed his own pants.
Captain C
@Raoul:
I wonder if the Queen is slightly envious of her predecessors, who were allowed to use the axe…
Raoul
@Captain C: One never knows what sorts of things might make a comeback in these strange times.
As a cheap aside, I still don’t think she’ll abdicate for Charles, though. She’ll hang on, ever hopeful that somehow one of her grands can take over.
Mary G
They’ll need some better help, but I guess they’re twisting Gowdy’s arm hard:
I don’t want to look at that hair all day again.
jl
So, if I understand this insane letter correctly, when the feds get wind of my next multi-million dollar international extortion scheme with serious national security implications, I get to go in and harangue and gas light the grand jury, and send in witnesses to lie for me, otherwise the whole thing is unconstitutional and null and void?
Ha ha, just joking about my next million dollar extortion scheme. I’ve moved on to another way to make money.
Tony Jay
@Raoul:
The fuck????
Oh, I think tomorrow might be a venting day.
Captain C
@Raoul: On a slightly more serious note, I wonder just how much of this is Boris’ desperation to hang on to power lest he cross some nasty people who are counting on him to wreck the UK’s economy, which they have shorted.
Raoul
Oh, hey, good news everyone.
Trey Gowdy has accepted a spot as outside counsel for Trump. If you have Benghazi! on today’s list of exciting retreads, drink!
Raoul
@Captain C: I can’t suss out how much is just Boris’ complete egomania, and how much he is in hock to some rough people.
mrmoshpotato
We burned the Constitution, so na na na na boo boo, you can’t catch us!
So many people need to be hit square in the bananapants and thrown in jail cells pending charges.
jl
@Raoul: More men’s hair do drama, is what I’m thinking, to go along with Trump, Miller, and Giuliani.
Kent
@Mandalay: Due to the 24/7 impeachment news we’ve sort of lost track of the presidential race but since the Ukraine scandal has exploded we have seen a steady erosion of support for Biden and rise in support for Warren.
I don’t think that is a coincidence. I think (1) Biden is being dirtied up by this scandal, (2) he has come across and weak and feckless due to the lack of any sort of indignant response by him defending himself and his son, and (3) Some percentage of Dems are coming to the conclusion that Biden’s style of Tip&Ronnie bipartisanship is out of date and pointless in the face of such a lawless opponent.
debbie
Is there no one in this goddamn administration who uses a writing instrument other than a Sharpie?
Dorothy A. Winsor
Was it written in sharpie?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@debbie: No.
danielx
If Trump gave a fiddler’s fuck about what the Constitution says, we wouldn’t be here…etc.
debbie
And what’s with all the footnotes?
Mary G
@Kent: I may be remembering it wrong, but IIRC Warren took two days to read the Mueller Report and called for impeachment way back then.
Raoul
@debbie: Big pens for small hands, just like kindergarten!
gene108
Congress needs police powers to detain people in jail, who do not appear, after a subpoena is issued.
There’s no teeth in Congress’s ability to hold people accountable
LAO
@Dorothy A. Winsor: no, but they did use comic sans font.
debbie
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
It looks like this guy’s Sharpie is about to run dry. May that be an omen for the future of these crooks.
mrmoshpotato
@Cacti: Funny thing that whole “checks and balances” thing.
Naw copper! You can’t arrest because I said so, ya see? Naw! PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!
Raoul
@gene108: Interesting tidbit today. Apparently the last appropriation cycle the House worked in language that they can suspend payment to Pompeo if he fails to produce witnesses or documents to Congress.
They were anticipating this shit. And Pompeo seems to have been put on notice today. It’s a small thing, but hit ’em where the cash goes. Clever.
LAO
@debbie: lawyers like footnotes.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@gene108: Yup, time to dust off inherent contempt.
Van Buren
@Kent: Your last point is the crux of the matter.
Hungry Joe
@Raoul: I try to imagine what family dinners are like.
Charles: Mum?
Queen: Yes, dear?
Charles: I was just wondering …
Queen. No.
jl
@Raoul: I read that the Queen had to agree to Johnson’s request to prorogue parliament or she would lose her legitimacy. But if Johnson suffers a no confidence vote Seems like Johnson wants to push that line to the breaking point. At some point the Queen has to act, or their democracy dissolves.
If the Queen has to act in an extreme situation where she will have more legitimacy than Johnson, who will win that one?
LAO
@jl: eh, I couldn’t get passed the ridiculous due process argument.
mrmoshpotato
@Mary G: Can Diana overrule them? :)
Just Chuck
Had to read that several times before I realized the word “White” wasn’t in the sentence.
Millard Filmore
@Raoul:
It would be nice if the Queen said “You are fired anyway. Go fight this on your own.”
Kent
@Mary G: Yes, and Warren’s squeaky clean outsider image provides the starkest contrast to Trump in this race I think. At least compared to the other old men Biden and Sanders.
Marcopolo
I know I sound like a broken record but all of us can be more than just spectators & commenters. Join me in calling your congresscritters (202-224-3122), especially if they are R’s—but the D’s too, let them know you don’t think Trump is above the law, and you will support and/or oppose folks based on their words and actions regarding this. Let’s all play a role in getting this orange asshole impeached.
debbie
@LAO:
Having formatted billions of them (more or less) for academic journals, the sight of footnotes turns my stomach.
jl
@debbie: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Dolor sed viverra ipsum nunc aliquet bibendum enim. In massa tempor nec feugiat. Nunc nunc nunc nuncky nunc..nyuk nyuk nyuk!
Edit: sorry, forget the random ‘inter alia’ Guiliani is innvolved, so that has to be in there someplace.
Kent
@Van Buren: I know my 82 year old father has a soft spot for Biden but he is getting very frustrated by all this lawlessness too. And coming around to the idea that we just need to completely clean house. Of all the candidates (even including Harris) I think Warren is the candidate who most captures that sensibility.
Keith P.
I’m tired of all this sit. I’m ready for courts to rule (and final rule, like SCOTUS refusing to hear appeals) so docs get coughed up and witnesses show up. This “I refuse to testify” bullshit that damn near everyone is now doing needs to end.
mrmoshpotato
@Tony Jay: Soooo….ummmm….for your own nation’s sanity, can the Queen slap the hell out of BoJo after he loses the no confidence vote?
debbie
@jl:
Google Translate is shaking its head.
jl
@Kent: ” Warren’s squeaky clean outsider image provides the starkest contrast to Trump ”
But Trump says the Deep State, plus UK/Ukaine/Australia/Italy are conspiring to bury Warren’s world historical billion dollar corruption scandal in China. If China were nice to Trump, which it is not, they would get to the bottom of it.
Looks like some last in the room guy told Trump yelling insult is not a plan to defeat Warren, and this hilarity is the best he could come up with.
Mandalay
@Kent: I have some (limited) sympathy for Biden right now, because he’s between a rock and a hard place.
He knows that if you’re explaining you’re losing, so the best approach may be to say nothing and wait for the dust to settle. And that’s doubly true while the Trump Administration is pouring gasoline on itself, and looking for a match.
On the other hand, his relative silence does make him look feckless, and even guilty of of some crime (even though he isn’t).
That said, the real deal breaker for me is that Biden has been pushing this twaddle that he alone can reach out across the aisle, and work with his Republican friends, and that’s why he should get the nomination.
Fine, except Trump is lying about Biden and smearing him every day, and how many of Biden’s “Republican friends” have stepped up to stand by him in the face of that monstrous injustice?….a big fat zero!
So Biden’s bragging about what makes him special now just looks like a complete pile of BS. No Republican gives a shit about him, and wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire.
HumboldtBlue
She’s a native of Portsmouth, England, but she’s also an American citizen and a woman who led to the USWNT to two World Cup titles.
Jill Ellis steps down as coach of the U.S. women’s soccer team. She coached the most games in USWNT history and was absurdly successful on the pitch winning more than 100 matches.
jl
@Mandalay: Good point. If I were running I’d very strongly and repeatedly stress that I would always be ready to reach across the aisle, and work with the opposition with civility and comity, AFTER, we whupped their ass in the upcoming election. An election is a contest, so while campaigning during an election, candidates should do some contesting. If the radical centrists scream about that, then point and laugh at them.
Jeffro
Hey GOP senators, you know what this letter tells me? It tells me that Trumpov intends to litigate all of his many many crimes to, and through, and after the 2020 election.
I’m sure it will be a good look for the party, and for your own reelection prospects.
For a limited time only, I will offer my services in drafting a “declare victory and go home“ speech for trumpov that you can give him. Take me up on it by the end of the week, GOP Senators
mrmoshpotato
@Kent:
Yup. “I can work with the lawless, Trump Trash Rethuglicans who told Obama to pound sand and piss up a rope for 8 years” line ain’t gonna cut it.
HumboldtBlue
This quote from hairgeltaco on Reddit.
Everyone sing along!
Roger Moore
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Only the finest crayon.
Leto
PaulWartenberg
if trump’s letter of refusal stands, it retroactively denies every Congressional investigation into the Executive branch ever done, not only the Clinton impeachment but also Iran-Contra, the Church investigation of the CIA, Watergate, McCarthy’s investigations into the U.S. Army, Teapot Dome hearings, and the Civil War committee that held oversight on Lincoln’s war cabinet.
zzyzx
The whole point of the Biden scandal is that it doesn’t matter what you have or haven’t done. Trump will just make shit up, the press will be forced to report on it to some degree, and their favorables will go down. Anyone who thinks that this is good because their favorite primary candidate is doing better in a few polls is being short sighted.
We have to stick together as a group and not play along at all with this bullshit or 6 months from now, there will be imaginary Warren stories and people who liked Biden and were angry that Democrats threw him under the bus might not defend her the way they should.
Priority 1 is get rid of Trump.
Figuring out which person will have their ideas not get past the Senate is priority 564.
mrmoshpotato
@danielx: It’s more the Rethuglicans who wouldn’t impeach the motherfucker in the first 2 years. Unless you were somehow expecting Dump to honor the oath to defend and uphold the Constitution of the United States.
Leto
@HumboldtBlue: An amazing coach! Wish her the best as she moves to her next gig.
Not sure if other people have seen this, but apparently Erick Son of Erick is calling EW a liar regarding her being fired from her teaching job because she was pregnant. Of course Erick Son of Erick is lying because CBS News, and other women, brought the receipts:
So another line of attack the right is trying out.
bluehill
After everything that’s gone on, no way Trump and his enablers roll over now. They are pot committed as poker players say. I don’t know what worse looks like, but we’re going to find out. Also, gives some perspective on the significance of all the things they are covering up. The stuff that’s come out is bad enough. The rest must be some serious @#$%.
Kent
@Mandalay:
I disagree. Josh Marshall talks about the “bitch slap” theory of politics. It’s what brought down Kerry’s campaign when he didn’t respond to the swift boat attacks and thought others were going to do it for him because it was beneath him and was going to go away if just the NYT refereed and debunked it. People see politicians not responding to this sort of thing and it just feeds the fire. It is what happened to Kerry and also what happened to Hillary to some extent with the email nonsense that she never really responded to in any systematic indignant way. If you watch the War Room about the first Clinton Campaign you see they are absolutely obsessive about responding to every single attack and rumor IN THE SAME NEWS CYCLE and that was before the internet.
Dems have to figure out how to respond to Trump in real time by ridiculing him. I know you aren’t supposed to fight with the pig because you only get covered in shit and the pig loves it. But it has to be done. Obama knew how to do it with humor and grace.
Keith P.
So, when Gloria Borger says “The American people want a fair process,” where is she getting that information?
Don K
So Republicans really do listen to Rage Against the Machine:
Fuck you I won’t do what you tell me!
Matt McIrvin
@Raoul: It’s threatening because that kid is somehow the boss of all federal police and the military. If he declares himself above the law there is no real way to stop him.
Jamie
@bluehill:
That’s my take, too. If they think “the entire Executive Branch refuses to comply with Congressional subpoenas” is a better look than showing up, taking the fifth, and generally just being evasive, there must be some *bad* shit in there.
jl
@PaulWartenberg: Poor Alexander Hamilton almost worked himself to death doing an audit of the US budget and treasury that he was told (very unfairly, and by people who were not nice to him) to deliver to Congress, when he could have told the unconstitutional Congress to buzz off.
NotMax
Attempt at throwing the broadest, most encompassing (and, BTW, entirely unenforceable) NDA ever out to roil the waters.
Or, shortest version: “You’re not the boss of me!”
mrmoshpotato
@debbie: Assuming that’s supposed to be Latin, Moe, Larry and Curly…
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed tempor and vitality, so that the labor and sorrow, some important things to do eiusmod. But now that consumer pull bananas drink it. The mass at tellus. Now now now nuncky nunc..nyuk nyuk nyuk!
Kent
@zzyzx: Biden’s priority #1 needs to be to defend his own damn self. I’m not sure what we can do out here in internet land when Biden himself is afraid to tear Trump a new asshole. There was a whole NYT article about how the Biden campaign has been seized with indecision in this whole mess and how Biden can’t bring himself to believe that they are actually attacking him and his son. Wake the fuck up. Where have you been for the past decade?
No one voted for him to put his hat in the ring and run for President. But now that he is doing that he had better show some damn backbone and political chops or he is toast. If (AS HE SAYS) he really is the best Dem to take on Trump then fucking show it. Now is your chance when the whole world is watching.
The Dangerman
It reads to me as if it is something a lawyer would write when the lawyer isn’t entirely sure he’she is ever getting paid for writing it.
First rule in life: Never, ever piss off your dentist (see Marathon Man).
Second rule: Pay your legal fees.
zhena gogolia
I am ceasing to find any of this funny, but that Matt Gaetz said Adam Schiff was “a malicious Captain Kangaroo running a kangaroo court” is still making me erupt with laughter.
H.E.Wolf
@Marcopolo:
Thank you for repeating this on a regular basis! You’re among the Balloon Juice commenters/activists who inspire me to keep volunteering.
Here in introvert land, I’m writing postcards to Democrats in Eastern Kentucky, urging them to use the “straight Democratic ticket” voting option in their November election.
I’ve recruited 3 postcard writers in the past 2 weeks, and I have my eye on a 4th participant. I’m saving them an address in Happy, KY, as an inducement.
Sign-ups are here: PostcardsToVoters.org
PS to leeleeFL (I hope I have the right Floridian; my apologies, if not): the GOTV postcard campaign for FL is going to resume after the November 2019 elections.
jl
@mrmoshpotato: That is nonsense Latin used as filler for page mock ups and templates. I copied it out of a Power point template of a block quote.
mrmoshpotato
@Roger Moore:
Gold?
danielx
@mrmoshpotato:
Now you’ve done it. I start feeling stabby whenever I am reminded of how much regard Trump has for any oath he’s ever sworn, vow he’s ever made, or contract he’s ever signed.
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
Tomorrow:
“A malicious Jimmie Dodd running a Mickey Mouse operation.”
randy khan
For those interested in, ah, precedent, it turns out that the House Judiciary Committee began its impeachment inquiry just after the Saturday Night Massacre, and that the full House didn’t take any action until months later.
Also, it seems like Nixon’s lawyer did not appear before the Judiciary Committee until close to the very end, apparently after he’d lost U.S. v. Nixon.
Somehow, the letter misses both of these facts.
gene108
@zzyzx:
Warren has shown a lot more energy in her public appearances than Biden. She seems more optimistic about the future.
Biden is showing his age. He’s noticeably older, than when he was VP.
I think that plays into it.
chris
@Kent: Now now, John Kerry’s administration was great.//
p.a.
The fish rots from the (infantile, dementia-damaged) head.
They had to write it out in terms Le Premier Enfant can kind of understand.
jl
@Leto: I think the Trumpster and GOP smear that it is all a lie because Warren was, eventually, rehired. It’s all BS. This kind of smear doesn’t deserve a polite response.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: …or jl just got into the cooking sherry early today.
guachi
That letter is pants on head crazy.
It was so bad I actually laughed out loud at its stupidity.
mrmoshpotato
@zhena gogolia: I call Mr. Moose to the stand!
gene108
@Leto:
Warren, like Obama, has had brief political career, before running for President.
Unless something she published as a law professor was totally off the walls, there isn’t that much history to dig through.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@gene108:
Inherant contempt?
mrmoshpotato
@jl: Sure, Jan.
But now that consumer pull bananas drink it.
Captain C
@Kent:
I remember watching this go down in real time, and getting very annoyed that Kerry wouldn’t respond. I’d just taken a class on Media, Politics, and Advertising taught by an adviser to Jon Kyl (as I used to describe him when I lived in the Copper State, our uncool Republican Senator; said prof was actually very fair-minded in the classroom and he and I got along well), and the prof had said that if a lie gets out, you have 48 hours to refute it or it becomes conventional wisdom. This is exactly what happened.
It was a perfect opportunity too, to turn it back against Bush. For example:
Kerry: This is an outrageous lie. I don’t care about the insult to myself, I can take that. But I will not have the courage and integrity of the honorable men I served with smeared by a bunch of cowards. I call upon President Bush to join me in denouncing this.
Shrubya: Well, we really should get rid of these (outside groups).
K: I asked President Bush to stand with me and defend our servicemen and he calls for free speech to be restricted? How un-American and cowardly. This is not what we need in our leaders, especially at a time like this.
Also, as I recall, one of the sources for the Swift Boat BS was asked if he actually saw what happened, and his answer was something along the lines of “nah, when the shooting started we turned and ran. Kerry and his men went after the attackers.”
This would have been a perfect opportunity to correctly tar the Swift Boat liars as cowards who abandoned their comrades and buddies under fire (and by extension, those who supported them, especially seeing as how many Republicans of that era had wormed their way out of Vietnam service).
Plus, especially during wartime, people will not vote for someone who they think won’t stand up for them. By not loudly standing up for himself, his men, or his party, Kerry gave that impression, unfortunately, by not hitting back.
Raoul
This is depressing.
mrmoshpotato
@danielx: Too much blood. Hanging them all in Central Park is my cup of tea.
Captain C
@Jamie: Here’s a good line: “Even mobsters showed up and took the Fifth. Why is it that Trump and his Republicans can’t even rise to the level of gangsters?”
NotMax
Matt Gaetz, Idiot Pursuivant.
A Zucker Brothers television production.
:)
Roger Moore
@Jamie:
My working theory is it’s not the subpoenas for testimony that really scare them; it’s the subpoenas for documents. They can’t very well acknowledge that Congress has a right to subpoena one but not the other, so they have to refuse both.
gene108
@Kent:
Biden’s dropped out in the early stages of his prior attempts to run for President. Why should 2020 be a deviation from the mean?
Kent
@chris:
One thing we know for certain about this coming election. They are going to shovel shit into the fan 24/7 and just hope some of it sticks to the wall. It will be endless and relentless. And its almost going to be who fucking cares about Russian trolls on facebook or Macedonian students doing fake news for hits. There will be plenty of Americans doing the same thing. The shit is going to come so fast and furious that it isn’t going to matter where the sources are domestic or foreign. And Trump is going to be re-tweeting it 24/7 with glee.
This isn’t going to be a war to see who can bet the most newspaper endorsements. Those days are long gone. The candidate who can best survive and thrive in this environment is going to be the next President. It is going to take world-class political skills and instincts and ability to command the stage. Bill Clinton had that. So did Barak Obama. The 2020 candidate who rises to the challenge will be the one who wins. And what their precise position is on Medicare for All is going to be as irrelevant as hell.
Of the leading candidates I think Warren shows the most savvy and instincts. Biden acts clueless and Sanders just ignores the question and keeps showing about power to the people. And for that matter has mostly been ignored as irrelevant for his entire campaign. Of the remaining candidates, I think Harris shows the most chops. But she is unfortunately fading.
NotMax
Having the power to authorize funds used for payment of their salaries gives the House an inherent authority to delve into how those in receipt of the monies are performing their functions.
Ksmiami
@mrmoshpotato: the Mussolini treatment gets better and better- perhaps we can leave the bodies up as future warnings
Kent
@Captain C: Exactly. And my sense was that Hillary basically did the same thing with the whole email thing. She should have gone on Leno when it first hit 9 months or so before the election and brought the ridiculous State Department official Blackberry or whatever they were supposed to use and just explain the whole thing with humor and ridicule. She went into a defensive crouch the whole campaign and never really defended herself straight on with indignation and humor. So it lingered and lingered and lingered and then Comey. Instead the whole campaign she basically just acted like “I can’t really believe they are talking about my emails”. Fucking believe it. Any shit that sticks.
debbie
@mrmoshpotato:
And now Google Translate is pursing its lips…
Robert Sneddon
@jl: It (the British way of doing things) doesn’t work that way.
The Queen doesn’t fire Prime Ministers, she appoints them. If Boris loses a vote of no-confidence then Parliament en banc will put forward a candidate who commands a majority of support and the Queen will appoint that person as Prime Minister. There’s no “you’re fired”, it’s more like “you’ve been replaced and no longer have any legitimacy to hold the position of Prime Minister”.
Parliament is in charge, what they call Sovereign in Council, not the Queen who basically stands there while things change around her.
As for her abdicating, not going to happen absent a severe debilitating illness or obvious dementia. You can take it as read she gets top-notch healthcare and there’s a family history of longevity with no signs of dementia or Parkinsons or the like in the bloodlines. The reason she won’t abdicate is she saw the fallout from Eddies Follies back in the 1930s up close and personal and it’s not going to happen again on her watch. Once she does go and passes the sceptre to Charlie, what he decides to do is up to him. He could well either pass it on to Good King William the Orange of Hair straight away or maybe wait a few years before adbicating and sitting back to have a long extended conversation with his potted plants.
HRA
This remark made me laugh “Uh, Trump can’t just “decline to participate.” It’s not the Vietnam War.”
Regarding Biden and Warren hits, we have months to go before the primary.
Cameron
Good thing for him that the top brass has the President’s back: theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/military-officers-trump/598360/
jl
@Robert Sneddon: Thanks for info. It’s completely up to Parliament to act then.
Except, in that case, I’m not sure what Johnson was asking or telling the Queen. His time would be better spent working Parliament. Does Johnson know how the place works?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Robert Sneddon:
Wills still has hair?
debbie
@Cameron:
Which do you think bothers them more, that he’s an idiot or that he refers to them as “my generals”?
Kent
So I just had a comment disappear. Am i in “moderation”? How does that work? How do I know?
Zzyzx
@gene108: Biden’s age is obviously my big fear about him. I’d probably be all in 8 years ago but I see all of our candidates as being vulnerable. If it were 100% up to me, I probably go for Mayor Pete, but if it’s down to Warren or Biden, I probably sit it out.
It’s just the gloating I don’t get. I’ll say this for Biden: I feel like he’s running for the right reason; he wants Trump gone. If he loses the primary, he’ll support the candidate gladly. I don’t get the hatred.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@debbie: I’m guessing the latter.
piratedan
well geez, now I gotta find my passport before I travel to Texas, just in case it secedes from the Union while I’m on vacation…. hoping that there will be a Republic when I get back…
and if Nancy Smash wants to arrest anyone, just put ’em in Congressman Collins offices and lock the door, check on ’em once a day and drop off some hamberders and give them a chamber pot, That’s probably better than placing them in ICE detention, then they might get deported and would never have to appear before Congress.
Cheryl Rofer
@Kent: It went into spam, according to the dictates of the inscrutable FYWP. I released it.
Jamie
@Captain C:
Hell yes.
MCA1
@Mary G: On the other hand, I eagerly look forward to a recitation of all the threatening things Gowdy barfed up about the evils of not complying with Congressional requests for information (while the Obama Administration was in the midst of scrupulously complying, but that’s neither here nor there, I guess). If he’s dumb enough to light whatever integrity he kept intact by leaving so early in the Dotard Era on fire, by jumping back in now, oh well.
Jamie
@Roger Moore:
That makes tons of sense.
We need a few more Volkers who are willing to quit and cough up everything they’ve got.
Sloane Ranger
@Raoul: This is a myth pushed by the RW press who don’t like Charles’ environmentalism or interest in social issues. The Queen has done everything she can to ensure Charles succeeds her. He has taken over the bulk of her public duties, receives copies of State papers and she worked the Commonwealth leaders to ensure he was named the future Head of the Commonwealth on her death. She will not abdicate under any circumstances as she believes her Coronation oath was a sacred undertaking between her and God.
@Raoul: Egomania a the way. Boris has wanted to be PM for as long as he can remember (actually he’d like to be more but knows our current constitutional arrangements preclude that). To that end he has lied and cheated, sucked up and kicked down and even occasionally worked all his life. Now he has his reward and his absolute brilliance will blind everyone.
On the letter thing, over at LGM they are speculating on what will happen if the White House blows off not just the House but SCOTUS as well. How do Congress and/or the Courts enforce anything when the people they are trying to enforce a judgement against control the enforcement agencies?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Cameron:
As commander-in-chief, I wonder how much control Trump has over the officers that serve in the military? The authoritarian go-to-play is to purge the military of “disloyal” officers.
Sultan Erdogan of the Neo-Ottoman Empire recently did so in 2016
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Sloane Ranger:
Supreme Emperor of Britannia?
zhena gogolia
@NotMax:
A malicious Buffalo Bob trying to Howdy Doody the president into prison!
Kent
@Zzyzx: I don’t see anyone gloating. I see frustration. A lot of us are looking for a fighter and Biden just isn’t coming across as the fighter we are looking for. Instead he is spinning the nonsense that he is uniquely situated to work together with the GOP and get shit done. Honestly Mayor Pete is doing a bit too much of that too.
Myself, I mostly don’t even give a shit about the policy differences between the leading candidates. The 2020 is going to be the most barn burning election of any of our lifetimes and I’m looking for the candidate who shows the most profound political talents to navigate the waters ahead. Right now they only have one damn job and that is to win. It is going to take someone with the skills and political instincts of Bill Clinton or Barak Obama or JFK to navigate and win this election. I don’t think either Biden or Sanders have that. I’m not sure about the rest of them but I’m warming to Warren. and was an early Harris supporter.
Mandalay
@zzyzx:
Fine. In that case tell Biden to start defending himself against these accusations, because if he won’t, why should anyone else?
Here’s a video of a (four minute!) Biden press conference from four days ago. At 2:34 a report asks him the central issue for some:
This was Biden’s reply:
I don’t think Joe Biden is guilty of anything other than poor judgement over Ukraine, but that is a such an underwhelming response for an innocent man.
And shouting angrily, and stabbing your finger at a reporter who asked an uncomfortable question is not a good look.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Officers swear an oath to the Constitution, not the President.
sdhays
This is pretty much my reaction when I heard the summary on the radio.
Msilaneous
@H.E.Wolf: It’s been on my mind for the past few days to sign up for this, and here you’ve gone and made it easy for me (I couldn’t remember the name of the organization). Thank you!
NotMax
Next week:
“The Constitution is unconstitutional!:
japa21
@Mandalay: Just curious. What poor judgement did he show? I am willing to be convinced.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@NotMax: I thought that was this week.
NotMax
@NotMax
Punctuation fail. Fix.
Next week:
“The Constitution is unconstitutional!”
Cameron
@debbie: I suspect it’s when he claims they call him “Sir” and thank him for being their CIC.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Cameron:
Robert Sneddon
@jl: PM Johnson is attempting an end-run around Parliament, trying to make the Government the main force in British politics rather than the House. It’s entirely plausible that given the splits in the House, Johnson could lose a vote of no-confidence but there wouldn’t be a candidate with a clear majority of support that could go to the Queen to get her to appoint them as Prime Minister as normal. If someone had a near-majority coalition of support, more than Johnson’s support as revealed in the vote then they might expect to be appointed but that’s uncharted territory and that might be what his veiled threats are meant to imply i.e. I’m still PM if there’s no clear majority for anyone else.
It’s normal for a vote of no-confidence to trigger an election but it’s in the Opposition’s best interests to keep Johnson and the Tories where they are, in “power” but with the choke chain of Parliamentary action around their neck. There are a few things in reserve, such as the ability of Parliament to vote that a member has brought the House into disrepute and remove them. It’s usually been done to corrupt pols (there was an expenses scandal that happened a few years ago, Google “duck house scandal” some time) or ones found guilty of criminal offences such as perjury in court. Johnson’s reported actions in not honestly advising the Queen as PM (his primary role in Britain’s unwritten Constitution) probably warrants that level of action. If he loses his seat then he’s effectively disqualified from leading the House i.e. he can no longer be PM.
Kent
@Mandalay: Biden is not even guilty of poor judgement over Ukraine. There is not even the appearance of impropriety.
Only thing he is guilty of is not reining in his feckless son for “appearance sake”. But his son is a middle aged adult who makes his own decisions.
But if he can’t even explain that then he isn’t much use. All he really had to do was say something to the effect of:
“Hey, it’s really tough being the child of a famous politician. Ask the Trump children, or the Bush children, or Chelsea Clinton. Because everything you do gets put under the microscope and no one thinks you got to where you are as the result of your own efforts. Is Hunter guilty of trading on my name? Maybe. But he’d be accused of that no matter what he does. But this whole particular “scandal” is ridiculous and Trump knows it. And frankly I’m shocked that he thinks throwing slime at a candidate’s children is really the way to go when his own children are running wild around the world making deals with every manner of dictator and autocrat from China to Russia to Uzbekistan.” So Mr. Trump. Are you SURE you really want to go there?”
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
True. What I meant is who in the military decides things like promotions and discharges and couldn’t corrupt civilian appointees in the Pentagon/Department of Defense put pressure on the armed services to force out anyone critical of Trump?
I’m sure officers would resist these orders by whistleblowing
cain
@Don K:
Hey it was Granny Starver’s favorite band!
Mary G
@Zzyzx:
This is how we got Trump. Vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee. Twitler is old too.
Sab
@LAO: If you are trying to communicate with President with undiagnosed reading disorder, comic sans is sort of mandatory. Just so he or staff can read it if they choose to bother.
cain
@Raoul:
Because it is a line they are crossing and every time they pass a line it means the other side gets to as well.
But it’s all bullshit, they will cross any lines, because as Rove said, they shape reality and while you’re busy processing that new reality they come up with new ones. So, the only way to beat that is to wield whatever power you have swiftly and with absolutely no mercy.
Steve in the ATL
NB to my fellow members of the bar: if you’re ever feeling bad about your career, be proud of the fact that in your legal career you’ve never done thing as stupid and indefensible as writing a letter like this one
Chyron HR
@Zzyzx:
“I’m not saying I want Trump to get re-elected, but if any of the top three primary candidates gets the nomination I’m going to stay home.”
Sloane Ranger
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Sounds about right.
Sab
@Zzyzx: “If it’s down to Warren or Biden, I probably sit it out.”
Pie filter for a nitwit.Not worth anyone’s efforts to even try to argue or reason.
Mandalay
@Kent:
Others disagree with you:
Also, Biden allowed his son accompany him on Airforce Two to China for a private business deal which reporters on the trip knew nothing about. As I have posted here before, it’s fine for family members to accompany a politician on government trips, but if they do that they should be obliged to publicize any business interests related to that trip in advance.
Unfairly or not, Joe Biden is not the best advertisement for draining the swamp.
Steve in the ATL
@Zzyzx:
Fuck off.
@Mandalay:
Fuck off.
@LAO: please don’t go away again—we missed you!
MoxieM
Open Thread Post: Yay…wonderful Dog Rescue Experience. I adopted Murphy at age 8, 3 years ago. She was withdrawn, untrusting, even a bit paranoid (I called her my paranoid Pyrenees, since that’s dominant in her Heinz 57 mix). When I got her toys she just looked at them. No interest at all, in any kind of toy…and you know I tried lots of ’em.
Tonight, she played with a toy! Yay! at age 11…she was so damn happy–I had tears in my eyes. (It was one of those little Kong balls that you put snacks into.) But still, she batted it around and really played with it! Just the best reward there is, really. The happiness of an old dog who figures out that life can include fun.
Mary G
I don’t think Twitler cares about what Lindsey Graham thinks. I have no words bad enough to condemn the president with.
Zzyzx
@Chyron HR:
Either I wrote it wrong or people are misreading. I’m sitting out a Biden/Warren PRIMARY. In the general I’ll be all in for either but the two have different strengths and weaknesses so I don’t have a strong preference. I’ll go with party consensus.
noone
@Captain C: Oh you mean my 1st and 2nd block classes. Yeah, even they aren’t that brazen.
Zzyzx
I reread my post and that’s on me. It was clear in my head that I meant the primary so I forgot to actually write that.
Steve in the ATL
@Zzyzx: thanks for the clarification. I hereby withdraw my request for you to fuck off!
Jay
@Kent:
A better way of putting it is Biden is guilty of poor judgement on his response to Hunter One BS.
You don’t “attack” the reporter, you don’t not “dignify” it with an answer,
You trot out a quick, short, scripted soundbite that points out it’s a bullshit attack.
Each and every time.
And if you want to double down,
“ this bullshit line of attack has been disproven by the timeline of events, many good journalists and the public testimony by our Ukrainian allies who have fought hard against corruption by their own Plutocrats and Politicians, and imported Western crooks like Manifort.
So why are you chasing this bullshit.
What’s your agenda?”
Another Scott
@randy khan: Plus there’s the fact that (according to a WNYC interview with Nadler on September 16 (start around 16:30)) – the committees don’t need full House authorization to have impeachment hearings nor to issue subpoenas, etc.
They’re throwing up an easily debunked smoke screen.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kent
@Mandalay: There are TWO different Bidens. I was refering to Joe.
Joe Biden doesn’t even have the appearance of impropriety. All he ever did was advocate for established US policy on Ukraine. Nothing he has done has even the hint of impropriety.
Hunter Biden does have the appearance of impropriety. But he is just some private dude and isn’t running for anything. There are a bazillion similar dudes around the world of politics who are trying to cash in. Obviously he was trying to cash in on Daddy’s name. But beyond that I have seen no evidence he did anything wrong.
Uncle Cosmo
@Mary G: I think what Zzyzx meant by “sit it out” is that if they are the last two candidates in the running, s/he** will not vote for, work for or contribute to either of them while they are still contending for the nomination – but will vote for, work for and/or contribute to the eventual nominee.
At least I hope that’s what was meant.
** I have no clue as to Zzyzx’s gender identification, & considering what’s come down in earlier threads, it is IMO safer & more respectful to cover all the bases.
artem1s
lettersofnote.com/2011/02/regarding-your-stupid-complaint.html
Someone needs to let White House Counsel Pat Cipollone know that some asshole is signing his name to stupid letters
Kent
@Jay: Exactly. There are high paid professionals who know how to do this shit. But whatever they are doing now is not it. It reeks of incompetence and indecision.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL: I thought you lawyers always keep something in reserve, not actually withdraw it.
Zzyzx
@Steve in the ATL: I wrote that waiting for my pre-Yom Kippur dinner, returned, and couldn’t understand why a “Eh, whoever wins is fine with me” sentiment got such anger.
You jerks read what I wrote, not what I was trying to write!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Zzyzx: Thought you’d been drinking the water out of Lake Tuendae, that stuff will make ya see things.
Zzyzx
@Uncle Cosmo: exactly! And I don’t hide my identity. Male/him/his.
Aleta
@MoxieM:
That’s so great, Congrats ! ! ! She’s a lucky dog to be with you.
I know that amazing feeling … It took 2 months of encouragement until this dog ran. (He was 7-8 y.o.) Tears in my eyes. After 11 months he pounced on a cork Another month and he picked up a tennis ball that another dog had left in the bushes. He couldn’t track a rolling ball for a long time.
It’s a beautiful experience to watch his mind grow. Surprisingly, one of the most fun, among many other good ones. Between him and me I was the lucky one to have my life changed by him.
Gin & Tonic
@debbie: I’m surprised you don’t recognize the standard faux-Latin “Lorem ipsum” text block that’s used when you need to work on text formatting/spacing and don’t want to type your own. It’s been around forever.
Starfish
@Raoul: Can they set the fines so high as to try to close the deficit and to peel off the true believers who are not plutocrats off from the rest? Set the fine at a million dollars a day so the ones who do not have the money to pay that will be looking for some lawyers who will help them cooperate as fully as possible.
Doug R
@Zzyzx:
WHAT?
Starfish
@Gin & Tonic: I only believe in Hipster Ipsum:
Lorem ipsum dolor amet nostrud seitan +1, trust fund prism consequat plaid tacos. Copper mug affogato velit viral hashtag. Yr lorem offal, dreamcatcher culpa austin craft beer church-key gluten-free disrupt sartorial incididunt duis. Id minim edison bulb voluptate.
Another Scott
@LAO: As Steve in the Who Knows Where said, indeed LAO, you have been missed. How’s the pup doing?
Cheers,
Scott.
Zzyzx
@Doug R: see my many clarifications. I meant the primary. Unless Pete has a shot at winning or if Sanders/Gabbard is still around to vote against, I’ll take anyone.
WA is late enough in the process that it might be a two person race by then. Warren would take it most likely.
Gin & Tonic
@Starfish: More proof that the original is always the best (in anything.)
Doug R
@Zzyzx: OK THEN.
Steve in the ATL
@Another Scott: Syracuse!
Steve in the ATL
@Zzyzx:
My wife pulls that shit with me all the time too. Drives me crazy!
Sab
@MoxieM: I adopted my late lamented Lily from a stepinlaw of my stepkid. Lily was part pyrennees or st bernard. 30 inches tall at the shoulder but only 70 lbs.
Wonderful, wonderful dog, but she was slow on playing. Too many homes, so although fundamentally trusting it took her a while to trust HERE where she was.
I remember vividly when she first played.
We lost her to cancer only a couple of years in, but I still feel we gave her the happiest, safe-est two years of her life.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL: Condolences.
Steve in the ATL
@Gin & Tonic: I didn’t withdraw it “with prejudice”, which means I can bring it back anytime!
Steve in the ATL
@Gin & Tonic: [weeps softly into Motel 6 pillow]
Sab
@Zzyzx: OK. Out of my pie filter. I was frankly surprised I had to put you in it.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL: IANAL.
Steve in the ATL
@Gin & Tonic: condolences.
Jay
@Mary G:
Kurds have been preparing for that,
And Russian/Iranian/Syrian moves are probably more about bringing Royjova back into the fold with assistance, and denying Turkey another foothold, than attacking Royjova.
The Syrians are still pissed that the Allies “gave” Turkey, Hattay Province as the bribe to sit out WWII.
thedailybeast.com/kurds-have-been-preparing-for-trumps-syria-betrayalwith-a-vengeance?via=ios
When the SAA left Royjova to defend other areas of Syria, the left a crapload of weapons behind so that the Kurds could do the job, they have run joint operations together before, and when much of the SAA forces had to be supplied by air, a portion of those supplies went to the Kurds.
Miss Bianca
@zhena gogolia: @mrmoshpotato: Apparently, all it takes is a few “Captain Kangaroo” references to get me cracking up helplessly. Who knew?!
H.E.Wolf
@Msilaneous:
Dropping back into the thread, very late, to say WooHoo!! I’m very glad the info was useful.
MarcoPolo gets credit for introducing it to BJ in the first place, with an assist from MazeDancer… and there are other jackals who are also participating!
[ETA: fixed my blockquote fail.]
Steve in the ATL
@Miss Bianca: stick around. Tonight’s Balloon Juice After Dark features Captain Kangaroo/Mr. Green Jeans slash fic by our very own BillinGlendaleCA and Mnemosyne.
NotMax
@Steve in the ATL
Indeed.
Wives don’t want divorces there
The men are strong as horses there
:)
Amir Khalid
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Very thin on top now; but yes, it’s still there.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL: Son of Mr Green Genes for you.
NotMax
@Steve in the ATL
Deep Pocket.
Miss Bianca
@MoxieM: Oh, I remember when that happened with my Stella after I first adopted her. Just looked sadly at treats and toys like she just couldn’t understand what to do with them.
it seems to take about two years for a pound hound to really shake off the PTSD of the whole shelter experience, at least from the ones I’ve been privileged to observe.
Jay
@MoxieM:
@Sab:
Yea.
Digger was a mess when we got him. Previous homes expected him to guard their children, do their taxes, and bring in a 2nd income as a Lawyer.
With us, and Casey, he just had to be a dog.
In the beginning he could hear an eyelid crack, and would be whining and anxious from that second on.
With Casey’s help, we eventually got him up on the couch for snuggles and popcorn, Saturday and Sunday morning nose rubs sandwiched in the bed and 3 more hours sleep for all of us.
Miss Bianca
@Steve in the ATL: HA HA HA HA HA *gasp* NOOOOOOO *gasp* HA HA HA
Starfish
@Gin & Tonic: Why do you hate plaid tacos?
Zzyzx
@Sab: the weird thing is that I was writing that in the context of defending Biden.
Good thing I’ll be getting atonement now. I’ll need it after that.
Jay
Jay
Stuck in moderation.
Zinsky
One thing that is coming out of this whole Ukraine thing that is not fully in view yet, but watch out for the soon-to-blossom story about Guiliani, Trump and Rick Perry trying to horn in on the other Ukranian natural gas company, Nazgoft-something or other, that was mentioned in the original Steele dossier! An interesting and satisfying coda to that whole story, further proving that it was accurate. Just wait – we may get to see Trump’s alleged pee tape soon!
Jay
Gin & Tonic
@Zinsky: Naftogaz. It is the state-owned oil and gas company.
Jay
Jay
mrmoshpotato
@Miss Bianca: Happy to help. :)
Ladyraxterinok
@Kent:
I remember people noticing and appreciating that aspect of the Clinton campaign.
Everyone, even the national media recognized what the GOP
was doing and effect they wanted to have.
Nowadays the media is so blase they pretend GOP isn’t doing anything at all. And media is just stunned that there’s any effect—much less one that the GOP actually calculated and planned to have.
Bill Arnold
@Raoul:
I’m suspecting, from his (BoJo’s) behaviour, that his testicles are being threateningly clamped by ruthless people who have arranged matters such that they will gain billions of pounds if there is a hard Brexit. He may or not have arranged matters so that he’ll get a cut if there is a hard Brexit. (Dumb move.)
JAFD
@The Dangerman: Rule 1-A: Always pay the fees for your exorcism
You _don’t_ want to be repossessed.
way2blue
Trump’s legal team must be at the ‘pound the table’ phase of his defense…
Spikester
@gene108:
I’m starting to think some DEA equipment and tactics are in order, perhaps mixed with a dash of civil forfeiture.
J R in WV
@gene108:
Actually, there is. It’s called inherent contempt, and hasn’t been used in many decades, because people have been so reluctant to behave with contempt toward Congress since the last time it was used.
But in the Constitution, age doesn’t make an important feature expire at all ~!!~